Because (IMO) someone had to do it. Discuss here, or don't, as you please.
I don't care how trivial the information that was exposed is, or whether it was someone's photos, or a private website for a small online game, or somebody's personal email: my appreciation and respect for people's privacy has only grown in the last five years or so. I hope it has for a lot of you too.
IP bans aside, I hope somebody somewhere makes the choice to reassess things instead of excusing and defending this kind of social poison.
Quote from: valeria on February 22, 2016, 03:07:56 PM
Quote from: Case on February 22, 2016, 02:33:48 PM
Man. Bannings over this stuff? Wtf. I'm disappointed. There is one person to blame, not a group.
I'm not surprised about bannings. Here's why: despite all the progress that has been made with player/staff transparency, communication, and trust, when something happens to make people feel threatened, the gut reaction from anyone, no matter how rational, is anger and fear. So I'm not shocked at an anger reaction toward isolationism and purging undesirables from staff right now, any more than I would be from any other reactionary government. What did the hacker(s) think was going to happen? Getting hacked makes people feel very violated and upset.
It's naive to expect there would be no reaction from staff, that isn't how human nature works. When someone hurts someone else, the hurt person lashes out back. That's why game theory works the way it does.
People associated with the hackers are probably not going to get much empathy or traction right now, regardless of whether they were actually involved or not (there are problems with the concept of guilt by association, but reasonableness doesn't prevail when people are upset). Right now isn't the time to be a squeaky wheel. Things like ban amnesty and benefit of the doubt only happen when people are feeling good.
As for me, I'm going to go back to hoping we don't lose too many good staffers over this, since I care more about having a playable game than whether some of the fallout is that a few problem players are banned in the aftermath. I'm confident rationality will eventually prevail and we'll all get past this.
Some things look really reactive and petty regardless of intent or reasons. I'm disappointed. It'll only lead to alienation of those on the fence and further turn the tone negative.
Quote from: Case on February 22, 2016, 03:42:15 PM
Quote from: valeria on February 22, 2016, 03:07:56 PM
Quote from: Case on February 22, 2016, 02:33:48 PM
Man. Bannings over this stuff? Wtf. I'm disappointed. There is one person to blame, not a group.
I'm not surprised about bannings. Here's why: despite all the progress that has been made with player/staff transparency, communication, and trust, when something happens to make people feel threatened, the gut reaction from anyone, no matter how rational, is anger and fear. So I'm not shocked at an anger reaction toward isolationism and purging undesirables from staff right now, any more than I would be from any other reactionary government. What did the hacker(s) think was going to happen? Getting hacked makes people feel very violated and upset.
It's naive to expect there would be no reaction from staff, that isn't how human nature works. When someone hurts someone else, the hurt person lashes out back. That's why game theory works the way it does.
People associated with the hackers are probably not going to get much empathy or traction right now, regardless of whether they were actually involved or not (there are problems with the concept of guilt by association, but reasonableness doesn't prevail when people are upset). Right now isn't the time to be a squeaky wheel. Things like ban amnesty and benefit of the doubt only happen when people are feeling good.
As for me, I'm going to go back to hoping we don't lose too many good staffers over this, since I care more about having a playable game than whether some of the fallout is that a few problem players are banned in the aftermath. I'm confident rationality will eventually prevail and we'll all get past this.
Some things look really reactive and petty regardless of intent or reasons. I'm disappointed. It'll only lead to alienation of those on the fence and further turn the tone negative.
Quoting this here before the thread goes completely off the rails.
Quote from: Case on February 22, 2016, 03:42:15 PM
Quote from: valeria on February 22, 2016, 03:07:56 PM
Quote from: Case on February 22, 2016, 02:33:48 PM
Man. Bannings over this stuff? Wtf. I'm disappointed. There is one person to blame, not a group.
I'm not surprised about bannings. Here's why: despite all the progress that has been made with player/staff transparency, communication, and trust, when something happens to make people feel threatened, the gut reaction from anyone, no matter how rational, is anger and fear. So I'm not shocked at an anger reaction toward isolationism and purging undesirables from staff right now, any more than I would be from any other reactionary government. What did the hacker(s) think was going to happen? Getting hacked makes people feel very violated and upset.
It's naive to expect there would be no reaction from staff, that isn't how human nature works. When someone hurts someone else, the hurt person lashes out back. That's why game theory works the way it does.
People associated with the hackers are probably not going to get much empathy or traction right now, regardless of whether they were actually involved or not (there are problems with the concept of guilt by association, but reasonableness doesn't prevail when people are upset). Right now isn't the time to be a squeaky wheel. Things like ban amnesty and benefit of the doubt only happen when people are feeling good.
As for me, I'm going to go back to hoping we don't lose too many good staffers over this, since I care more about having a playable game than whether some of the fallout is that a few problem players are banned in the aftermath. I'm confident rationality will eventually prevail and we'll all get past this.
Some things look really reactive and petty regardless of intent or reasons. I'm disappointed. It'll only lead to alienation of those on the fence and further turn the tone negative.
Well, yes, it looks reactive because it is reactive. The intent and reasons, though, I totally understand. I don't expect people to act with perfectly calm rationality under the circumstances. That would be the exception to human behavior instead of the rule.
I imagine anyone who got banned might want to revisit the issue after the emotional response dies down, if they're even interested in still playing.
In all seriousness, if you don't see what was done is wrong, then you're backwards, and I don't see how discussing it serves anything but to muddy the waters. In a strange twist of irony, this is no one's business but the parties that were violated. As it goes, those parties are also part of a governing body that has the ability to mete out punishment. Now, let's move on, huh?
Quote from: valeria on February 22, 2016, 04:00:07 PM
I imagine anyone who got banned might want to revisit the issue after the emotional response dies down, if they're even interested in still playing.
Unfortunately, the people you refer to have often been on an emotional response for a year or longer. The fact that they just can't let go of it after all this time, or continues to play a game where they feel those in charge of it are out to get them, is simply WEIRD and UNHEALTHY.
I think it's healthy for these people, and the game itself, that they have been banned from it.
I don't like the post hoc nature of the banning myself. It seems arbitrary to ban someone for behavior that was previously permitted but has suddenly become anathema. I think at least one warning should be given before total and complete bannage.
I think staff should not be quick to react in this case. Perhaps wait a week before implementing any grand changes that might be unnecessary. Staff knows I've done things while angry immediately after the fact that I regret.
Valeria's post contains a lot of truth.
Staff has been threatened, attacked (regardless of opinions on the magnitude of the attack), been made to feel vulnerable, unappreciated, and abused. The hack was wrong. Everyone reasonable knows this. It's only natural for staff to lash out in response. However, lashing out is still regrettable, because negativity will only lead to more negativity.
It's important to remember that the individual hacker is a single, disgruntled person who probably doesn't even play the game. The cheering and applause from certain members of jcarter's board is negative and saddening - but it's important to remember, again, that those cheering observers probably number fewer than 15 people in all.
It's also worth mentioning that several members of jcarter's community came out to say that the hack was wrong.
I sincerely hope for some outcomes:
1) Staff is assured in the knowledge that the vast majority of us support them and appreciate all they do for the game,
2) Staff moves past the negative actions of this individual, and the negative attitudes of a small group, without being prompted by these few into a large-scale negative response,
3) Staff sees that remaining positive, compassionate, empathetic, inclusive, and the other benevolent attributes that have markedly characterized the last year of Player-Staff interaction on Armageddon, continues - because that attitude is necessary for the continued health and growth of the game. And probably necessary for the sanity and enjoyment of staff themselves.
I hope things do not regress into hurt, defensiveness, suspicion and anger. That will only undo the happy era we've been entering and cause players (including those who have nothing to do with the negativity) to leave the game.
When a free, peaceful group is attacked, there's a strong temptation to become less free and less peaceful in order to punish the attackers. When this happens, the attackers win and the defending group loses.
Hacking a database and releasing private information is wrong. It's disrespectful to the players who staff this game for us, and it cheapens your own experience by peeking behind the curtain. I don't see any defense for it.
Anyone who's gotten banned recently for reasons other than database hacking, that's a different discussion. One that I personally think should be between them and staff, and not subject to vague references and speculation on the GDB.
Decimation (Latin: decimatio; decem = "ten") was a form of military discipline used by senior commanders in the Roman Army to punish units or large groups guilty of capital offences, such as mutiny or desertion. The word decimation is derived from Latin meaning "removal of a tenth". The procedure was a pragmatic, yet vicious, attempt to balance the need to punish serious offences with the practicalities of dealing with a large group of offenders.
The one was chosen and sacrificed for the sins of the others, now it's time to move on, my fellow Roman Armageddon patriots!
I don't have a lot of sympathy for those who post on the "shadow board". (I assume that's the sort of people that have been banned?) The forum and those who run it and contribute clearly violate Rule 7. It should be obvious that associating with them is done at your own risk.
Hi!
I will admit some of my peers, hell some of what I would call friends, are "shadowboarders". Though we rarely played together in game, we liked to chat about game as well as various other topics. We ourselves were just a bunch of people doing whatever, a lot of it unrelated to Armageddon.
I'm disheartened actually, because one of said friends was banned. He's the only one I know of.
I'm not going to go into details because that would be poor form and considering my attachment, I wouldn't be very impartial. Not like anyone would care what my opinion is anyways in regards to bans. That's between that player and the staff.
Though I do see something troubling though entirely understandable, it's tribalism. What was done was wrong, and was done wrongly and wasn't actually communicated to the community of jcarter.org clearly. At first no one knew it was a 'hack' till some one else pointed out the offender fessed up to how he exploited it. (Or something to that effect, the temporary nature of the posts don't leave a lot of hard evidence of who, knew, what, when).
Yet damage was done. Trenches were dug and tribalism for the terrible thing it is, prevailed. While I watched GDB lump all of them into one group with out knowing all the facts, I watched the alt-community draw lines in the sand with out knowing all the facts. No one was going to give up position because the "Us vs them" mentality has been apart of the said conflict since the inception of Jcarter's forums. For whatever their reasons and there is many, those who choose to become full fledged members of the alt-community did so because the felt they had no place or no voice here. In this community, on this forum. Jcarter isn't just a group of griefers and twinks, it was also a community of misfits and outcasts, looking to role play and just role play. Looking for a place to discuss the game they love with out feeling beating upon by a larger more insular community or feeling out right ignored.
They weren't born that way, they didn't start off there. They started here, remember that, they were once 'us' and not just 'them'. They still played the same game, played in the same clan, hell some of you, unknowing sent kudo's on characters from infamous 'shadow boarders'.
Heavy handed moderation was and is the most cited example (Although that appears to have been changed) the other is fear of negative account notes. Why voice your dissent where it can effect your play? It's not like you can visit the GDB anonymously. Why risk karma or karma chances? Jcarter's forum for a long time was a place where one could let out their frustrations or pick up on things that there was originally no avenues to figure out. Whether it was code knowledge or 15 year old secrets, or a log that might never of seen the light of the original submission forums.
So people were quick to take sides, even when all the facts be evident because human beings are kind of dumb and they do stuff like that. By the time stuff was being deleted was the only time we had all the facts, yet in true bone head fashion some of the alt-community maintained position, to give ground, to give up would to let 'them' win. In any other setting or impartial observation they would perhaps felt differently, but it was -their- community under attack. So they applauded and cheered and did whatever tribes do during war time, whether they think the battle being fought or the tactics used are right or wrong. No one questions the bombs being dropped till well after the war.
Like how many here expressed the same reactions, I looked at many posts they used 'THEM' and not "That guy". The immediately blame the group, not the individual. No respect for the nuance. Tribalism at it's finest, their guy did something so they're all guilty. They say were all guilty so fuck'em all!
Like a thousand year old blood feud, it knows no logic or end now, just that blood will be paid with blood. It's illogical on both parts but it how tribes of human react in these situations. Us VS Them, always, no matter who tribe did what wrong. They will always attribute the actions of an individual to the group.
Barka is pretty shitty or perhaps just stupid to not realize he was reversing what I felt was finally a form of reconciliation. Yet it was done and any hope of burying that hatchet between both communities was destroyed with it.
Now, I will probably end my Arm career right here with this post, but I'm making peace with that. Because what use is it to be or attempt to be apart of a community that I've always felt an outsider too?
One of my friends quit playing because he didn't feel like he could be a part of Armageddon, another is banned, another is burned out, so here I am, looking between a game I like and few dudes I like to kick it with.
Not entirely sure if it would be disloyal to continue playing while carefully making sure that any of my feelings or associations where kept secret. That in some way, would it be dishonest to myself? Or the community where we all adopted each other and shared a lot of triumphs, hard ships, and some terribly funny in jokes.
Perhaps some of you feel similar about the GDB and main stream Arm community, that to be attacked as it happened, was wrong so utterly counter intuitive. I had hoped perhaps foolishly that Jcarter's little forum was to be nothing more then some code info + ironic shit posting.
But hope is a foolish emotion.
With that, though I do like the game and wish I would of learned/explored/done more.
I do wish this incident never happened because it's created a terrible rift and caused lots of heart ache for people involved.
I'm left with either quietly being an outsider, afraid constantly being found out because I maintain friendships with banned/undesirable persons. Or politely leaving for greener pasture where I need not worry who is on my steam friends list/who's phone number is in my phone/or who I like talk to about gaming in general.
Tribalism won, that's all there is now. Just US vs Them and what ever stone can be cast at who. As much it pains me to see people hurt a game I love, it also hurts to see a game's community throw stones not only at my friends, but in weird ways indirectly at me.
That's a bit overblown. Nobody's going to be, or should be, persecuted in some kind of stalinist purge for the crime of having a jcarter forums friend.
I've spoken to Adhira about this stuff a bit, and I think she's more interested in having a positive environment. She at least gets that people talk to each other or share info and stuff. What she (and staff) don't seem to like are the meltdowns and random spats being dragged everywhere for everybody to get outraged over. It's still just a game. Everybody's passionate. Staff say some dumb shit too and they're really only players with a veneer of authority slapped on. They don't wanna be player therapists or dealing with people that constantly hate everything or argue everything endlessly. Keeping up high spirits for creativity is hard.
Things have been really good lately, and all the overreactions from this are fucking it up. It sucks.
Quote from: Case on February 22, 2016, 05:43:57 PM
That's a bit overblown. Nobody's going to be, or should be, persecuted in some kind of stalinist purge for the crime of having a jcarter forums friend.
I've spoken to Adhira about this stuff a bit, and I think she's more interested in having a positive environment. She at least gets that people talk to each other or share info and stuff. What she (and staff) don't seem to like are the meltdowns and random spats being dragged everywhere for everybody to get outraged over. It's still just a game. Everybody's passionate. Staff say some dumb shit too and they're really only players with a veneer of authority slapped on. They don't wanna be player therapists or dealing with people that constantly hate everything or argue everything endlessly. Keeping up high spirits for creativity is hard.
Things have been really good lately, and all the overreactions from this are fucking it up. It sucks.
Yup. People need to just move on, nothing has really changed. There is only a change here if you keep dwelling on it and escalate the drama. Being defeatist about tribalism winning and being unable to bury the hatchet between communities is like a self-fulfilling prophecy in that way.
There is not two separate communities. We're all just a bunch of people who play the game and have opinions. There's just as much in-fighting and arguing among one board as the other. The only difference is the medium which people are expressing themselves through. A moderated one, and an unmoderated one.
Quote from: hopeandsorrow on February 22, 2016, 05:35:26 PM
Heavy handed moderation was and is the most cited example (Although that appears to have been changed) the other is fear of negative account notes. Why voice your dissent where it can effect your play? It's not like you can visit the GDB anonymously. Why risk karma or karma chances? Jcarter's forum for a long time was a place where one could let out their frustrations or pick up on things that there was originally no avenues to figure out. Whether it was code knowledge or 15 year old secrets, or a log that might never of seen the light of the original submission forums.
I do it all the time here and I have yet to lose any karma over that. Heck, you just have to go to that 8+ pages about me being an Armageddon Staff to see that I've said some brutal stuff about Staff in my past childish anger over this internet game, under my GDB name Malken, and I haven't lost any karma over it either. What I haven't done, though, is being a constant little stalking prick via requests to the point that Staff would rather just stop dealing with me permanently than to continue giving me chances after chances.
You are perfectly fine with saying whatever you want here (to a certain degree, of course - civility will get you far in life) and to be friends with anyone you want on jcarter.org and I guarantee you that nothing will happen to you or your account, as long as you don't turn into an annoying prick that just refuses to let go of an issue that was decided forever ago, or that you continue to bitch non-stop about the game and its staff on every single venues you can find while continuing to play said game.
Patience has its limits.
Every dramatic OOC event relating to this game provokes a dramatic reaction from some player or another who decides now is the time to martyr themselves.
Zero sum Melodrama, Contradiction and Belligerence
Getting so outraged over a GAME that you need to attack it for years and go so far as to try and ruin it for everyone else who don't need their back-doors stitched up suggests a serious need for therapy.
Rage-quit/vent = Fine, normal. People need that sometimes.
Hacking? Dedicating years to shadow boards for the sake of continuing to be a whiny asshat? = Seek help.
To everyone: I imagine that trolling people is not going to help them feel less like outsiders. I'm not a moderator and can't control what you guys post, but c'mon, let's try to be respectful. If you think that some people are overreacting, I think the best response is to speak to them with empathy rather than making them feel even more like outsiders.
To hopeandsorrow: I understand the feeling of not being in the in-group, and it sucks. I do feel like my opinions aren't treated with the weight of some more popular people on the GDB, and that's lame. And it's lamer still when it bleeds over IC, although it's a hard thing to quantify. It could be that I'm totally wrong in this perception, but either way I know very well that it can feel that way.
I don't know what else to say to you but I'm sorry. I'm sorry you feel left out. I'm sorry your friend was banned. I'm sorry that things went down the way they did. I don't think this will lead to some kind of a shadowboards inquisition, but I understand the reason for your anxiety over that. I don't think hope is a foolish emotion. There is a great opportunity here for people to display their maturity in the face of something so immature and stupid, and from what I hear staff is interested in doing that, despite their anger and hurt. I know that your friend's ban may seem like evidence against this, but give it time before extrapolating some larger trend.
I hope you start to feel better about the situation and that you reconsider the decision to make this the end of your Arm career.
What does it mean to be in the in-group??
I think that hopeandsorrow's opinion is just as valid as everyone else and he's more than welcome here, I don't see how/why he should feel like an outsider and I'm not sure why he feels that way (if he does).
Speaking of wanting to move on... why is this thread sticky?
Quote from: Malken on February 22, 2016, 05:50:33 PM
You are perfectly fine with saying whatever you want here (to a certain degree, of course - civility will get you far in life) and to be friends with anyone you want on jcarter.org and I guarantee you that nothing will happen to you or your account, as long as you don't turn into an annoying prick that just refuses to let go of an issue that was decided forever ago, or that you continue to bitch non-stop about the game and its staff on every single venues you can find while continuing to play said game.
Patience has its limits.
Agreed.
Armageddon is closer to a tabletop RPing group than an MMO. There are players, and there are Staff (GMs) who have volunteered their time to try and steer the game for us. We might not always agree, but the hope is everyone is trying to have fun. We try to reach that mutual point as adults.
Thinking of Arm this way is why I don't consider the leak (aside from personal information pertaining to staff members, which is seriously offending) that a big a deal: it's no different than a player reading the GM books or notes. It cheapens their experience, not mine.
If you have a player in your tabletop group who is constantly whining, backbiting, spewing vitriol or dragging the group in to a manufactured conflict of "us versus them," a point will come when they will no longer be invited back.
Rational adults will decide whether the game and the others playing it are actually fun for them and worth their time. This being the internet, there's a higher chance of getting irrational people who can't make that decision for themselves. Sometimes they get banned. My hope is that they can take some time to reflect on what happened and why it happened and learn from the experience. I suggest they remember it's just a game and to set down the cross they're bearing.
That's a personal discussion they need to have with themselves and, if they wish, with staff or other players privately. For the rest of us, these threads only serve to give the worst of the martyrdom trolls what they want: attention.
We talk about "being the change you want to see."
I'm going to "be the change" and believe that staff will have the wisdom to move past the tribalist temptations here. I'm going to keep playing, while believing that staff will continue in the positive direction we've been going in. I'm going to be sympathetic to staff's feelings of vulnerability in the wake of this, but I'm also going to move on and continue being my idea of a positive player and communicator with staff.
I think that's the best we can do. You only get positivity from being positive.
As far as the mental states of those posting on jcarter's forum: yes, it's obvious that it's unhealthy to obsess for years the way some posters there do. It's probably best for them to do other things with their time. I don't think there's anything to be gained from decrying them, though. Anyone with maturity knows that obsession is unhealthy. We should focus instead on what we can control: our reactions and the environment we create here.
Please keep this thread as civilized as possible. If you feel like you're going to post something angry, just take half an hour and come back to it.
Remember that the first rule of the discussion board is to be cordial:
1. Please don't flame. While you can criticize the opinions of other people, do so with respect for them as a fellow human.
With such a sensitive topic I thought I'd just reiterate Beethoven's plea to be respectful.
Hack is bad, unethical, shitty, regardless of the content of the dump it's just a malicious invasion and personal. I'm emotionally invested in the game and thus emotionally invested in the results of someone fucking with what I consider to be my game. What happened has clearly dampened the spirits of the playerbase on either side of this rift, growing the rift wider.
However, I'm entertaining the vague hope that some folks will take a legitimate look at the game, the boards, themselves and step away from team jcarter and rejoin team Armageddon with a goal of growing and maintaining a positive, upbeat community, furthering the success of something we all love/loved.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on February 22, 2016, 06:00:40 PM
Speaking of wanting to move on... why is this thread sticky?
I have no idea...I don't think I did that. Maybe I hit the button by mistake? Maybe a staff member did it.
.........I don't actually know how to unsticky a thread.
hahahahah
I don't know what it means to be in the "in group," but to feel like an outsider (notice that I say "feel like" because I admit it could just be my insecurities leading to this perception) is to feel like all the major GDB posters know each other, and treat each other accordingly, while you're left being treated like a stranger (i.e. who is that person and why do we care what they think?)
I am definitely an insecure person, as any staff here can likely see from my timid, unassertive reports, so I definitely allow for the possibility of it being all in my head.
Yeah.
I don't understand the concept of the 'in-group'.
But I will note that they definitely have more of that over there than over here...to the point that it was all 'Welcome! Welcome!' until you said something pro-staff or pro-game or anti-established-shadowboarder-words...in which case they rabidly attacked said person and tried openly to invalidate said opinion as 'afraid of losing karma', 'gdb community wannabe', 'staff pet', and etc. It's not like attempts weren't made to bridge the gap and make accomodations. The 'line to be crossed' was moved back several times for them.
It really was just a forum -designed- to be one thing, but hijacked and turned into another thing entirely due to their stance on lack of regulation and moderation. Such is the cost.
I, personally, am not troubled by bans over it. It's not like...people weren't given -ample- space to improve in this matter. I do not find it petty. I see it as a direct consequence. I'm...not sure what any of them expected to happen. Aside from the idea that they'd one day return atop chariots and rose petals tossed over them, maybe?
Quote from: Beethoven on February 22, 2016, 06:13:11 PM
I don't know what it means to be in the "in group," but to feel like an outsider (notice that I say "feel like" because I admit it could just be my insecurities leading to this perception) is to feel like all the major GDB posters know each other, and treat each other accordingly, while you're left being treated like a stranger (i.e. who is that person and why do we care what they think?)
I am definitely an insecure person, as any staff here can likely see from my timid, unassertive reports, so I definitely allow for the possibility of it being all in my head.
I've seen your name and hopeandsorrow's often enough that I'd consider you both part of the community, not sure where that feeling of outsiders might come from, again, but it's certainly not the case, I assure you :)
Thank you, Malken :) I'm sure no one expects to be validated all the time--I certainly don't--but it is nice to hear that.
Quote from: Malken on February 22, 2016, 04:04:22 PM
Quote from: valeria on February 22, 2016, 04:00:07 PM
I imagine anyone who got banned might want to revisit the issue after the emotional response dies down, if they're even interested in still playing.
Unfortunately, the people you refer to have often been on an emotional response for a year or longer. The fact that they just can't let go of it after all this time, or continues to play a game where they feel those in charge of it are out to get them, is simply WEIRD and UNHEALTHY.
I think it's healthy for these people, and the game itself, that they have been banned from it.
Meant to post with my main account.
Quote from: LauraMars on February 22, 2016, 06:08:35 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on February 22, 2016, 06:00:40 PM
Speaking of wanting to move on... why is this thread sticky?
I have no idea...I don't think I did that. Maybe I hit the button by mistake? Maybe a staff member did it.
.........I don't actually know how to unsticky a thread.
hahahahah
I unstickied it.
...hopeandsorrow, what I think might be the issue in your case, as far as feeling like an outsider? I could be completely wrong in this matter, but...
Jcarter's forum would have you believe that the behavior they have there, is happening all over the place over here, just behind closed doors. So basically, you not being in any group from here doing that same sort of discussion was you being an outsider?
That was one of the big harms of that forum that I've talked about. Such weird bits of misinformation that can have such a big impact on things. Most of us do not congregate somewhere else and talk about Arm. I...talk about Arm...on the GDB. I send occasional PM's to people if I don't want to derail a thread, or if there is something off-topic that I want to talk about. I think people get pulled into occasional small-time AIM or YIM 'relationships' with people where it waxes and wanes...but largely, this is the main way it works.
The way they were over there is how they wanted it to be. That's just not how it is here, for a lot different reasons than what you're told. It's not some club to keep new players down, that's...frankly -preposterous-, yet cited as a universal truth over there. It's not a deadlock of information to maintain a status quo. It's not a hazing ritual. They're jading you before you're even exposed to those few actual instances where it hurts you.
You're already part of what we're part of, man. You've just been trained to have an expectation of what being part of that is, and it's a false expectation.
I have a small understanding of the goings on over the last few days and barely know what the other forum
is (I've even forgotten the name now). I'm a new player, I joined the game earlier this month to play
with a friend. I've had nothing but fun times and been met with warmhearted and helpful players. This
game and it's playerbase, as far as I have experienced it, is lovely.
So, not having a huge idea of what's going on but having read the letter, all I have to say is that the
staff has created a wonderful game and world. It's brought me a great deal of laughs and fun over
the last month and I genuinely hope nothing happens to my new MUD home.
Quote from: DreadshipCrew on February 22, 2016, 06:35:41 PM
I have a small understanding of the goings on over the last few days and barely know what the other forum
is (I've even forgotten the name now). I'm a new player, I joined the game earlier this month to play
with a friend. I've had nothing but fun times and been met with warmhearted and helpful players. This
game and it's playerbase, as far as I have experienced it, is lovely.
So, not having a huge idea of what's going on but having read the letter, all I have to say is that the
staff has created a wonderful game and world. It's brought me a great deal of laughs and fun over
the last month and I genuinely hope nothing happens to my new MUD home.
This is one of the most important posts in the discussion.
Yes. It is.
Quote from: SuchDragonWow on February 22, 2016, 04:03:46 PMIn a strange twist of irony, this is no one's business but the parties that were violated.
As a party whose private information was leaked and was not removed at any stage until such time as the entire wiki was removed, can I post on the subject?
I do see value in discussion and I do not feel that jcarter's forums are an appropriate venue due to the hostility and contempt they show for many staff members, both past and present. I'd also ask those that do not want to partake in this discussion to please not do so and simply avoid the thread. By saying 'this doesn't need discussing' you are creating an atmosphere that shuts down discussion and does make people feel like the only recourse they have is to post their feelings and thoughts on another forum.
So who the hell am I and why should you care? I was a 5 minute storyteller who looked after a few clans, 2/3rds of which are no longer available for play, and worked on project that has since been long abandoned. So my words shouldn't hold any more weight than those words of a fellow player (which I am happy to say I still am), but I have chosen to post as a former staff member rather than a fellow player because my information was leaked so it helps cut through the "only those who were violated should post" mindset.
Why should we care?My personal information wad actually fairly minimal. I do not feel threatened at this time (although some posters on jcarter's forum have seen fit to try to "out" who staff are whether by guessing or knowing) that anyone will attack me in real life. I do think there is a very real possibility that some posters in jcarter's forum will use the wiki to work out who I am as a player and use that as an excuse to then attack me, and I feel that such a fear is justified given the history of posts over on those forums. However there is no real impact to me directly beyond coloring people's perception of me (whether for good or ill) when I participate in this community.
I care because when I worked on staff I entrusted the staff who remained behind to use my work in good faith and in a way that enhances the game. I also trusted the staff who remained behind to choose successors from the playerbase that would uphold the standards we aspired to. Whether staff have kept that trust is irrelevant. Hacking the Armageddon website and then revealing the work I put into the game in a free for all manner is not what I intended and is not what I consented to. In my view, this is the true violation for me (if only because I had minimal personal information on the wiki).
Furthermore continuing to make a hacked version of Armageddon from 16 years ago really just adds salt to the wound. It also shows that any hack of any kind will continue to have an effect on the game for years to come. How is there an effect? Staff have not participated in this game only to have their time and effort as a staff member so that others could throw it up online and disseminate it freely. I think a minimum of respect for staff, if only as other human beings, should be enough to stop people from disseminating such information by means other than those that were intended by the staff.
Should participants of that forum be banned?I only know of one banning so far, and that player has shown in his response to the banning to hold a high degree of animosity towards staff. Whether or not it's justified is irrelevant (I'll admit, I certainly felt bad for him when his original collision with staff occurred because his heart did seem to be in the right place, if not his actions). The animosity shown by his response since has made it clear that I would not want to play in the same clan as that person. As for other participants? The forum disseminates IC information OOCly. Unless the policy of staff has changed, participation in that forum is a grounds from being docked karma or banned. The congratulatory statements made on that forum about the hacks makes it clear that even those who didn't perform the deed themselves, many certainly support the person who did. And furthermore, the hosting of the 1999 version of the website and participation of that hosted game should also be grounds for banning.
We can't afford to permaban our community!The idea of a permaban is ridiculous. I know of no-one (except maybe the Israeli hackers?) who have been permanently banned from the game. There have been players who have done some pretty shitty things with pretty terrible motives who have all been given second, third, fourth chances and more! We have ex-staffers who have left staff, laid out a whole suite of gossip and IC info, shown utter contempt for staff and yet have been permitted to continue playing. I really wish staff would stop using the phrase "permanently banned" because it isn't an accurate reflection of what's occurred.
Is there in jcarter's website and forum?I think that some players are trying to give the forum value in using it to try to build a bridge between staff and players who are dissatisfied with the current game or the current staff policies. And I commend those people. But when the host of the website is clearly quite hostile towards staff and a number of posters have also shown hostility towards staff (either past and/or present), I think it poisons any efforts at trying to unite the playerbase. While I have no doubt that the forum has had positive changes to staff policies (I do not for sure it has, but I believe it has as a bystander in all this), I think this recent hack and the uploading of the 1999 hacked MUD makes it clear that the website will have no positive place in future discussions with staff. Where blowing off steam occurred on AIM to a handful of other players, it now takes place in the public eye where many more people can jump in validate your hurt feelings and encourage you to remain angry. This is not a value add to the community in my opinion.
My Plea to the PlayerbaseI understand that there are people who have felt aggrieved by staff and feel powerless to see a satisfactory resolution to the aggrievement. I do not know what can be done, but I do know that going to an unmoderated forum that does not take any positive action to limit or stop the spreading of hacked information, whether it be the entire MUD or private documentation, is not a venue for which positive change can be actioned from. I don't know what can be done about it, and if people have ideas on what to do I'd encourage them to make new threads where the subject can hopefully be discussed free of the stain of what has occurred on jcarter's forums.
What can we do Moving Forward?For those who are participants of that forum, I do ask you to stop. Further participation of that forum will help keep it relevant in the community and does not nothing to ensure that something like this does not happen again. I do ask our fellow participants of these forums, if you do find a thread they you not feel is worthy of discussion, to refrain posting such thoughts in the thread and to instead simply move on. The feeling is that this forum is merely an echo chamber that does nothing but agree with staff and actively tries to stifle any conversation that is not positive. Regardless of whether it's true (I think a cursory look at old threads will show it's not) posting "this doesn't need discussing" or "get over it" or "just move on" certainly feeds into that appearance and helps discourage meaningful conversation.
For my own part, I do not know what I can do to help the community. I will continue to be a player and I will continue to try to be a positive influence as a player. However that's a very small part I play, although I do not know how to have a greater help in the situation of the player/staff divide, which I do feel was being healed up until a portion of jcarter's membership thought it appropriate to host and/or play in a hacked version of the game.
Case in point, I barely talk to any of you outside my posts on the GDB. But I guess because I'm vocal on the GDB, I'm a cool kid and therefore I must have some mysterious fount of insider connections and !!IC Info!!... and the reality doesn't matter in cases like this - the perception is there and you can't do anything to convince people otherwise if they want to believe it. So all you can really do is shrug, maybe roll your eyes, and move on. There are always going to be people who love to gossip, that will unfortunately never change.
Still, I'd suggest stepping away from the kool-aid fountain and stop believing everything you read. And definitely try not to immediately assume the worst of people's intentions.
Maybe just recognize that while not perfect, this game is still one of the best roleplay experiences out there, and we are all here (hopefully) to have fun, tell stories, amd chop motherfuckers with bone swords. So let's try and leave the gossip and drama IG where it belongs.
Edit: good lord this thread exploded by the time I wrote my post
Just FYI I didn't post out of any sense of martyrdom. I highly doubt I'll see an email or an IP ban, as I've never been a 'problem player'. I have a history of perhaps whining a bit but besides that my account notes are pretty tame if not, utterly unspectacular.
Yet I felt compelled to say something, because I saw what I can only be described as demonizing a group who ain't all bad, (well except maybe a few). That the folks who found themselves among jcarter's board of misfits, aren't all griefers, obsessed butt hurt players, despite the few bad apples. At least in my experience, most of us in the 'shadow speak' or discord 90% of the time we're just cracking jokes about whatever and even some of the GDB's prolific names have found themselves in our little corner of the web. Though I don't blame them for being entirely turned off by recent events. Barka's attack help re-polarize the groups involved, for the worse.
I don't hate this community or the GDB, I just never felt a part of it. Perhaps my own doing, I dunno. I do know that I did find myself among misfits with a much more relax attitude to the game (At first) and the sharing we did was not plot details and stuff that breaks rule 7. And more or less tips on how to survive, find a good guild/sub-guild combo, maybe some cultural knowledge and mostly just support for each others endeavors and a good nature ribbing when the time called for it.
Quote from: Malken on February 22, 2016, 06:00:24 PM
What does it mean to be in the in-group??
I think that hopeandsorrow's opinion is just as valid as everyone else and he's more than welcome here, I don't see how/why he should feel like an outsider and I'm not sure why he feels that way (if he does).
To echo Beethoven, it's hard to quantify honestly. Sometimes it feels like engaging in thread with an opinion differing from a prolific poster, is disastrous. Sometimes it just feels like your out of the loop in terms of knowledge. Armageddon has a had player culture uniquely its own and it can appear especially to the not so socially inclined... Daunting. I think the cliquish feel and nature is simply unconscious consequence of a group of people who after years of playing together are very comfortable with each other.
It makes the uninitiated, the unfamiliar feel like their outside looking in. That lacking the GDB cred+ In game prolific status + aim connections... heh, again super hard to quantify because a lot of it based on conjecture and what one perceives and reads between in lines. Hard to quantify. Again this was before I was a 'misfit'.
I can state with some confidence that it feels if you aren't taking part of the GDB you aren't able to provide your own input and when you're new to the GDB your input can feel like a drop of the bucket when a vet with 10 years under their belt proclaims you are wrong and their reasons states is that their a vet and your wrong. Some posts can feel like their invalidating you outright because
you aren't XYZ. Whether that's the intent, I dunno, but as it's communicated it can certain come across that way. That's just a small facet of what can be off putting and make you feel a bit like an outsider.
There's no martyrdom here, at least not with me, but just a little exhausted of "biting my tongue" so to speak when I really just wish things could be different, that both sides could take a chill pill. That my associations with certain parties doesn't feel like it needs to be a secret, because dude it's highly uncomfortable to mention and I've only dare mentioned it once before. It's uncomfortable because the tribalism is evident not because of any rule breaking. I can say with up most confidence, that for a long while it was unspoken that you didn't shit on current plots and that if you were sharing it wasn't suppose to be used ICly.
Yikes, I certainly didn't mean it like that, Delirium. I'm sorry if I have inadvertently insulted you. I was not considering any person in particular when I made my remark, and I am very open to being told that it is all in my head, as I have said before. It seems that most people are telling me that it is my imagination so I am willing to accept that.
Heya, Hopeandsorrow.
To be honest. I think the best solution to your feelings of not being on the 'in group' is to just stop using GDB, or jcarter's forum, and just play the game :).
There's lots of cliques, or powerful and uber, characters in the game, but they're all mortal and they all eventually die. Nobody's immune. Just a matter of time. Death makes us aaaaaaaall equal. I imagine there are players still out there who barely, if ever participate on the GDB, but play the game all the time.
I'm actually curious to see how this all turns out. I like it how some people in jcarter's forums left in protest of what someone there did. Kudos to them. Fok you to those who voiced their support of the deed. You want to move past this 'dick move' deed? Express your protest. Dont express it cowardly/forced/Oh fine, if you insist type of way like Jeshin did at some conversation with Nergal. Express your protest, leave the group that's supporting the 'dick move' action. Cut ties with it. Express your feelings with your feet. For, or against.
Quote from: Beethoven on February 22, 2016, 06:13:11 PMI don't know what it means to be in the "in group," but to feel like an outsider (notice that I say "feel like" because I admit it could just be my insecurities leading to this perception) is to feel like all the major GDB posters know each other, and treat each other accordingly, while you're left being treated like a stranger (i.e. who is that person and why do we care what they think?)
I am definitely an insecure person, as any staff here can likely see from my timid, unassertive reports, so I definitely allow for the possibility of it being all in my head.
I started on staff back when you got full karma for being a staff member and retained full karma upon leaving staff. I have never played a character whose karma I had not earned as a player and (based on my most recent account notes) there is no mention of the fact I was a staff member on my player account. Furthermore I do not speak with anyone who plays this game on any venue other than this forum.
I have never felt disadvantaged in my dealings with staff and only make mention of my former staff account when I feel doing so disadvantages me (at one time I believe it was staff policy to favor players over ex-staff for certain situations. I could be wrong,, it has been quite a few years since I was a staff member and it may no longer be staff policy).
Quote from: DreadshipCrew on February 22, 2016, 06:35:41 PMall I have to say is that the
staff has created a wonderful game and world. It's brought me a great deal of laughs and fun over
the last month and I genuinely hope nothing happens to my new MUD home.
The game has unfortunately been hacked before. "Player"-run "areas for discussion" have appeared at other venues since the game's inception. This latest event will not have any negative impact on this games longevity and it will continue for many years to come.
Also as a sidenote: This game's greatest asset is it's players. As much as the staff deserve ongoing thanks, so do it's players. Armageddon truly is the greatest hub for in character roleplaying I've ever encountered. And it's only that way because the playerbase makes it so.
Quote from: hopeandsorrow on February 22, 2016, 06:56:36 PMI don't hate this community or the GDB, I just never felt a part of it. Perhaps my own doing, I dunno. I do know that I did find myself among misfits with a much more relax attitude to the game (At first) and the sharing we did was not plot details and stuff that breaks rule 7. And more or less tips on how to survive, find a good guild/sub-guild combo, maybe some cultural knowledge and mostly just support for each others endeavors and a good nature ribbing when the time called for it.
I know of nothing in this quote that would have been prohibited by the GDB. If you can identify what about the GDB did make you feel discouraged (regardless of whether such a feeling was rational or not) I highly encourage you to start a new thread so we can help evolve the GDB.
The GDB is an interesting beast. Once upon a time the game had no community forum. It then had a community forum where discussion was limited and eyeballs on any one discussion was also limited. We then have what we have today where participation on the GDB is now mandatory to some degree. I do wonder the value of the GDB and how much influence it has had in retaining members vs driving them away and how we can get the ratio between higher towards player retention. I note I have no data to suggest the GDB does drive people away. Just a gut feeling that some have left as a result of the GDB.
And on that note I'm going to go back to playing!
needlessly baiting/flaming people is stupid.
stop doing it.
i have been a problem player in the past. i try not to be one now. it has so far worked in my favor. it can work for anyone, you just have to want to be a better person to the game.
you have to want to look past certain things, and not get the feeling that you're under attack.
that is the only way you can ever rise above the 'outsider' mentality. it is as easy as just joining in a conversation. your opinion, especially as a new player, is valuable. it's partly because of new players that we have a newbie area, starter shops, things like that. directions command. contact starts at master.
Here I figured that one of Case's friends was friends with the notorious hacker and got caught up in the ban. Maybe I missed it when I just rapidly scrolled through RAT after taking yesterday off, but I haven't really seen any calls to ban/censure the entire population of the whingers' forums (the only times I've peeked in on conversation over there, it seemed dominated by various people whining about how maltreated they are by staff while being unwilling to actually attempt to address issues with staff because of a perception that staff won't take them seriously which is reinforced by the fact that they don't address the issues and everyone backslaps about how awesome they are for never communicating directly... etc). Even though most of them are breaking various game rules, regardless of whatever reasons they may have for doing so, I don't think anyone holds that entire community responsible for what happened.
But demonizing the reaction isn't good either. Staffers are people, and they behave like people when something upsetting has been done to them. Particularly something as violating as hacking their personal information. And any expectation that the responsiblepeople saying 'oh we took it down' will make things better is like expecting someone to forgive you for breaking into their house, stealing their TV, and then saying "well I put it back!"
On the other topic, I think that the perception of the in-group is a lot more prevalent than the presence of an actual in-group. I'm still waiting for the day I get inducted into it so I can have a shiny veteran ribbon like all of the veterans who have been playing this game since I was in middle school. Except maybe I'm in the in-group? I don't know. I don't feel like it. I've met a few people IRL and we have some neat photos and good drunk stories, but no one is stopping new players from coming to those publicly-posted meet ups. Other than that, I don't talk to other players of the game about the game, the ones I've met IRL or not. Especially not to form super cool cliques in the game (not just because it would be obvious, but also because I'd miss cool opportunities to play opposite people like Beethoven and the nine million other people I've played with/opposite of and loved). I recognize that there is definitely a dismissive contingent of "I know more than you" or "u so dum" players that make a lot of appearances to shoot down ideas or act like everything pertinent has been discussed and no one ever has anything new to add... but those kind of people exist everywhere. I largely ignore them. I don't really know what else to do about them. And they don't get much traction here because of the anti-trolling rules and the general self-policing the community does. Which is one of the things I love: compared to the Arm boards, the rest of the internet is a dark and scary place.
That said, it makes me sad when people say they don't feel welcome here. I don't think that surrounding yourself with negativity is necessarily a good choice, but it isn't my choice to make. I think talking about why you don't feel welcome might help the rest of us address what isn't exactly welcoming.
Just my 2 cents on the "outsider" mentality and those who feel it:
- It gets better.
Stepping into Armageddon is like experiencing culture shock; there's so much that's been around for so long that it's become it's own "Little Zalanthas" and it will take some time before you immerse yourself enough to feel like you're part of the "in" crowd and people. You're going to make mistakes and social/cultural gaffs, you're going to have people who react negatively to it. How you react and respond are then up to you. Remind people that you're new and don't know all the ropes or where all the land mines are laid out and to cut you some slack, but remember that accepting and owning up to any mistake you might have made goes a long way, if you in fact made one.
- It's also not just you.
Many threads and posts over the years have shown that new players often feel like the game is "clannish" and hard to break in to. Elitist, in a way. Part of that may be those who are "grouped up" simply because they've been around for years with others who have been around for years and feel the most comfortable with what they know. They don't intentionally want to push you away or make you feel left out, but it can come off that way despite their best intentions.
Then again, maybe you are experiencing a clique; they do exist, but they exert a disproportionate amount of influence for the few that are in them.
Quote from: Delirium on February 22, 2016, 06:54:22 PMStill, I'd suggest stepping away from the kool-aid fountain and stop believing everything you read. And definitely try not to immediately assume the worst of people's intentions.
Yes, please.
I think the word 'hack' has been thrown around like it's the worst possible thing that could happen. These things have been happening since the dawn of the internet. It's not going to stop. That doesn't condone the guy's actions, but it doesn't make him or the rest of the group a bunch of malicious villains.
I've only been vaguely following this shitstorm, but am I right to assume the biggest concern is staff's privacy being breached? The intent behind it?
The fact that he took down personal information, past and present, as quickly as he did says something. That the entire wiki has been taken down now does, too. It doesn't seem to me like he did this with some twisted, ill intent, despite his methods, but correct me if I'm wrong.
As unnerving as recent events have been, I think it's important to note moving forward that these guys, or most of them, aren't those ne'er-do-wells you'd think they are. Some of them are jaded, some of them are sticking around for the laughs, some of them are trolls, and some of them just want to enjoy Arm in the way they prefer to. I'm not trying to excuse barka's mistake but that's what it is and was: a mistake.
What I really mean to say is this: There's really no need for bannings or the going after of members who posted on that thread.
I'm still, for the most part, a newbie and not even a terribly consistent player, but my time in Arm has been absolutely splendid. So, in the end, I just hope we can all move on from this.
I have been contributing to this game for a long time, and I post a lot (TOO MUCH?). I can no longer hide behind the label of new player and I guess I am an old veteran now. That said I hope I have never made anyone feel unwelcome. If it makes hopeandsorrow/beethoven/anyone else feel better I often feel awkward and insecure too, and am too scared to request my account notes (haven't done it in years) because I'm convinced I'm accumulating bad comments at the rate of fifty per day. Like valeria I am still waiting for my engraved invitation to the in group.
I apologize if I have ever made anyone feel excluded. <3
I don't think feeling like an outsider and being a problem player are synonymous evilcabbage
I've never been considered a problem player to my knowledge over the past several years, but I'm definitely an outsider on the gdb. I feel like an outsider in most communities I make contact with though. That said, I've definitely witnessed eliticism and cliqueish attitudes that, in combination with heavy handed restrictions/repercussions for expressing ones opinion (if it's too adverse or whatever), contribute to the popularity of the shadowboard. It makes me afraid to post thoughts/criticism.
There's only about 20-30 "active" users on the GDB. The other forum(s) have similar numbers. We had 250 unique logins last week. The vast majority of players don't care what anyone says on any forum.
Most people here will behave civilly, if at times bluntly.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 22, 2016, 08:28:26 PM
There's only about 20-30 "active" users on the GDB. The other forum(s) have similar numbers. We had 250 unique logins last week. The vast majority of players don't care what anyone says on any forum.
I do not see the the relation between point A and B. I read the forums a lot, but obviously am not 'active'.
It's the active posters who post that set the mood of the forums. It helps to remember that we're a small fraction of the overall community that makes a lot of noise, but are not that influential on the game.
You influence the game by playing it. The forum(s) are just where like-minded people go to howl at each other.
Quote from: LauraMars on February 22, 2016, 08:23:04 PM
I have been contributing to this game for a long time, and I post a lot (TOO MUCH?). I can no longer hide behind the label of new player and I guess I am an old veteran now. That said I hope I have never made anyone feel unwelcome. If it makes hopeandsorrow/beethoven/anyone else feel better I often feel awkward and insecure too, and am too scared to request my account notes (haven't done it in years) because I'm convinced I'm accumulating bad comments at the rate of fifty per day. Like valeria I am still waiting for my engraved invitation to the in group.
I apologize if I have ever made anyone feel excluded. <3
Well said. Same here.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 22, 2016, 08:37:26 PM
It's the active posters who post that set the mood of the forums. It helps to remember that we're a small fraction of the overall community that makes a lot of noise, but are not that influential on the game.
You influence the game by playing it. The forum(s) are just where like-minded people go to howl at each other.
I kind of disagree. I feel like a vocal minority has a lot of sway... That's probably just me being selfish. My only "evidence" however would be the trend of staff policies and code implementations generally following the wants of the people of the forums. It's also important to remember that just because you're a small portion of something, doens't mean you aren't representative of the whole.
My post is all a pointless sentiment and sort of off topic though.
Beethoven and hopeandsorrow (and anyone else who feels "left out" sometimes) - I'm a prolific poster here on the GDB. Some people think I'm psycho. Some like my ideas. And some don't give a shit one way or another. It's all good, to me. But - truth be told, I sometimes feel left out too. People have had APMs where they've met in real life, partied together, even with staff in attendence. They talk on Teamspeak. They post on Facebook together. They have 50 of their "best Arm pals" on their instant messaging app, and share photos of their kids/dogs/moms.
Here's what I have:
I have 6 people on my AIM buddy list. I talk to one of them pretty regularly, we've known each other for years. I'm not sure about three of the others because I haven't seen them "active" on my buddy list in months (one not for almost a year). The other two I see active maybe once or twice a month, just long enough to say hello and ask me if I'm still playing. I say yes, ask them the same, and then one of us has to log out and that's the end of the conversation.
There's no "group" of us, in my case. I've been playing for over a decade. I post a lot. Players know the name Lizzie, they're familiar with me. They know many of the characters I've played over the years, mostly because I've posted in the clan boards with this account. So if you ever play in that clan and look back on the post history of the clan board you'll see my name pop up eventually.
I think that's what -most- of the playerbase encounters, and why they seem to "know" each other. Because we all have been in many of the same clans and have a shared history - even if our characters didn't actually belong to the same clan at the same time.
The ones who've hung out with each other in real life, yes they do tend to share jokes, and do seem like they're "in" on something I'm not in on. That's okay though. It's my choice not to go to the APMs and gatherings and meetups and join Teamspeak and have 50 of my closest VBFFs on my buddy list. I did get on Teamspeak a few times but my hearing sucks, and none of them want to type anything out, so I can't follow any of the conversations and end up feeling even more left out than if I hadn't joined them in the first place.
I never meant to imply that I think there is a Sekret Veterans' Club. I've been having trouble sleeping and I might have expressed myself clumsily; my apologies if anyone who is a regular poster here feels like I attacked them. Nor is this a criticism of staff; staff has always been more than fair to me and I have my share of karma. I do not think that you have to be in any in-group to be treated well by staff.
I guess what I mean to say is that so many people seem to have known each other for years and be on friendly terms. No one knows who I am; I don't think I've ever mentioned my real name here, nor posted my photo. I only talk to a few people OOC, many of them newbies I'm trying to help. Sometimes it seems like the other main posters on the GDB have known each other for years. Perhaps better than words that cast blame around like "in-group" or "clique" would be words like "daunting," as hopeandsorrow said. I don't think anyone is deliberately trying to exclude me or anyone else or try to make me feel unwelcome. And LauraMars and valeria are two of the kindest, most helpful people around, in my experience. I don't really know Delirium but I have always found her posts to be helpful and considerate.
The perception just comes from the fact that when you're no longer a newbie with the privilege of newbie attention, but you're not too well-known, either, it can feel like your opinion gets lost.
For a shy person like me, it can be easy to think that people are ignoring you or treating your opinion like it doesn't carry as much weight as someone more well-connected, even if there's no truth to it. But whether it's justified or not, when people dump memes on you for expressing your opinion, it can feed into that perception.
Honestly, it does not really bother me that much, which is a big reason why I've never brought it up before. I just bring it up now because I don't want hopeandsorrow thinking he's the only one who feels that way. It may be true that it's all an illusion, but it's always good to know that someone else has experienced what you're experiencing, which is why I threw my voice in.
TMC has a thread on this if anyone would rather take part in an open discussion. http://www.mudconnect.com/SMF/index.php?topic=79731.0
Good stuff here on the GDB though.
I'm personally constantly READING the forums.
I just don't feel very good about posting in discussions very often because, I'll be honest, the tone feels just a touch like I'd be dipping my toe in a shark tank if I tried to add my opinion to a topic. I only do it if I feel strongly about something or am feeling playful. I don't like conflict... so yeah, I play this game. ::) But more seriously, rather than post here, I'll sometimes just tack on what I feel to my requests if it's that important a topic (ie: we're asked to vote on something).
So.. that's kinda indicative of my personal feelings on wanting to post here that much. I'm an introvert and it's intimidating.
Quote from: Beethoven on February 22, 2016, 08:49:49 PMmy apologies if anyone who is a regular poster here feels like I attacked them.
I don't think anyone took it this way.
Quote from: Beethoven on February 22, 2016, 08:49:49 PM
I never meant to imply that I think there is a Sekret Veterans' Club. I've been having trouble sleeping and I might have expressed myself clumsily; my apologies if anyone who is a regular poster here feels like I attacked them. Nor is this a criticism of staff; staff has always been more than fair to me and I have my share of karma. I do not think that you have to be in any in-group to be treated well by staff.
I guess what I mean to say is that so many people seem to have known each other for years and be on friendly terms. No one knows who I am; I don't think I've ever mentioned my real name here, nor posted my photo. I only talk to a few people OOC, many of them newbies I'm trying to help. Sometimes it seems like the other main posters on the GDB have known each other for years. Perhaps better than words that cast blame around like "in-group" or "clique" would be words like "daunting," as hopeandsorrow said. I don't think anyone is deliberately trying to exclude me or anyone else or try to make me feel unwelcome. And LauraMars and valeria are two of the kindest, most helpful people around, in my experience. I don't really know Delirium but I have always found her posts to be helpful and considerate.
The perception just comes from the fact that when you're no longer a newbie with the privilege of newbie attention, but you're not too well-known, either, it can feel like your opinion gets lost.
For a shy person like me, it can be easy to think that people are ignoring you or treating your opinion like it doesn't carry as much weight as someone more well-connected, even if there's no truth to it. But whether it's justified or not, when people dump memes on you for expressing your opinion, it can feed into that perception.
Honestly, it does not really bother me that much, which is a big reason why I've never brought it up before. I just bring it up now because I don't want hopeandsorrow thinking he's the only one who feels that way. It may be true that it's all an illusion, but it's always good to know that someone else has experienced what you're experiencing, which is why I threw my voice in.
I'll imply that I feel like there is a veteran's clique of sorts, for
you me. I have never felt "in" unless I'm playing a sponsored role, and I've been here for 5ish years, and I've played MUDs for 16.
But that's fine. I don't care much. I'm not here to please anyone except myself, and possibly the staff that takes the time out of their day to interact with me via reports.
Keep on being a good player.
Yeah, I don't think anyone took that as a personal attack. At least no one that has responded. I think there's more concern about addressing that sense of alienation than anything.
Quote from: boog on February 22, 2016, 09:08:03 PM
I don't care much. I'm not here to please anyone except myself ...
^
As long as you're logging in and enjoying yourself, don't spare a care for what anyone on either forum have to say about it.
Apparently Jeshin has been banned. He's the optional realities guy. His interest has always seemed to be half scientific and half news reporting. Banning him from a board he doesn't post in for taking interest in the how's and why's seems excessive. Maybe I'll get banned for raising awareness, but this is a line that I won't stand idly by for. He's a reasonable, well mannered individual. You should be seeking advice from the guy making it his prerogative to learn these things to help create a richer RPI scene, not banning him.
Here are the relevant TMC posts:
http://www.mudconnect.com/SMF/index.php?topic=79295.msg208592#msg208592
http://www.mudconnect.com/SMF/index.php?topic=79731.msg208606#msg208606
Also please don't ban me :(. I enjoy my nobody indie characters who quietly enjoy exploring the game world.
If TMC is misinforming us, please make the missing part of the story known. Otherwise, banning this respected pillar of the RPI community makes Arm staff look bad
Quote from: Maziel on February 22, 2016, 10:54:46 PM
If TMC is misinforming us, please make the missing part of the story known. Otherwise, banning this respected pillar of the RPI community makes Arm staff look bad
I'm sort of hoping that the Armageddon staff will just let it die down and refrain from posting on the TMC forum and any other forums, at least under their Staff names. This is getting ridiculous, even for someone like me who loves to read the new hourly weird Arm-related gossip - Man, how many Armageddon related forums are there anyway?? the GDB, jcarter.org, now TMC and whatever Optional Realities is?
At the risk of sounding too Tuluki, I'm not terribly thrilled seeing links to pages/posts that link to the other board. I don't think we need to send any more attention that way. I'm not terribly concerned with what people on the TMC or other MUD forums think of us. We've never been terribly well regarded anyway. (And why should we be? We're competition in a niche sub-genre of a niche genre.)
Quote from: Marauder Moe on February 22, 2016, 11:12:49 PM
At the risk of sounding too Tuluki, I'm not terribly thrilled seeing links to pages/posts that link to the other board. I don't think we need to send any more attention that way. I'm not terribly concerned with what people on the TMC or other MUD forums think of us. We've never been terribly well regarded anyway. (And why should we be? We're competition in a niche sub-genre of a niche genre.)
What I've linked to isn't what others think of us. The posters are Arm players, our kin.
Quote from: Maziel on February 22, 2016, 10:54:46 PMAlso please don't ban me :(
I'm holding out hope that people don't still have to be concerned about something like this.
Excuse me if I'm stepping out of line. I think Maziel brings up a good point. What is to gain from banning the likes of Jeshin or RedRanger? I don't know. Unless there's something I'm missing, I hope this decision gets reconsidered.
Quote from: Insigne on February 22, 2016, 11:35:18 PM
Quote from: Maziel on February 22, 2016, 10:54:46 PMAlso please don't ban me :(
I'm holding out hope that people don't still have to be concerned about something like this.
Excuse me if I'm stepping out of line. I think Maziel brings up a good point. What is to gain from banning the likes of Jeshin or RedRanger? I don't know. Unless there's something I'm missing, I hope this decision gets reconsidered.
I seriously doubt that Maziel would get banned, but I must admit that I'm also ??? as to why Jeshin and RedRanger were banned - I'm going to guess that it might have to do with what Armageddon's Staff are about to announce this week regarding the whole affair.
(Both Jeshin and RedRanger seem like pretty nice and decent dudes from what I've read/know of them, so this is why I'm curious about the sudden (if it's sudden) bans) - There's way too many forums talking about this now so I'm probably missing a lot.
I'm kind of cool with the purging of accounts, as long as staff revisit anyone who seems fairly moderate and wants to come back after things cool off.
The last many months have been nothing but the current administration doing everything in their power to extend the olive branch... then this happens. Ban them all, and sort out the false positives or edge cases later... That's my vote at least.
That's how I feel about it.
This isn't some sudden, unreasonable action.
This is people who were very open in opposition of a long-standing rule, and actually had it tolerated to a much larger degree than -I- ever saw in my time here. So when a certain line was crossed, the long-standing warning that was given to many, many players of 'You should probably not associate there' is being acted upon.
Doesn't have to be permanent. But I fail to see this as some overreaction. This is measured and -normal-, albeit delayed to give the benefit of the doubt (which failed).
I don't really give a shit about what people on other forums have to say about the game, when I can see there's 58 people on right now and I'm having fun at this moment.
The only people who really know why anyone gets banned is staff.
Yup, things are awesome lately.
Huge amounts of code additions, new subguilds, work is being done on primary guilds, hundreds of new rooms, fucking playable Gith....
If people still want to complain, and cannot do so in a constructive and largely positive way, I really don't care if they're here anymore. I'm a pretty easy going, understanding sort of person... But I can 100% understand if staff are fed up and just want to give some people the boot.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 23, 2016, 12:33:40 AM
I don't really give a shit about what people on other forums have to say about the game, when I can see there's 58 people on right now and I'm having fun at this moment.
The only people who really know why anyone gets banned is staff.
A user at one of the other forums may say something like, "I don't really give a shit about what people say on the GDB. Their opinions don't represent the player-base. I can see there's 58 people on right now and I'm having fun at this moment ignoring their BS.
The only people who really know why anyone gets banned are the players telling us why they got banned."
Either party can open their ears to all they can, or they can not. I will listen to what I can from Arm players
and staff wherever they post, here or elsewhere, and I will form opinions with the knowledge I'm able to obtain.
90% of what you're going to hear outside of the game from other people is bullshit. That's as true here as on any other forum.
If you really want to know what the game is like: Play the game, interact with staff, see how it works out for you.
I have little time for people who are looking for a conflict that doesn't involve virtual characters chopping each other up with virtual bone swords.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 23, 2016, 12:52:23 AM
90% of what you're going to hear outside of the game from other people is bullshit. That's as true here as on any other forum.
If you really want to know what the game is like: Play the game, interact with staff, see how it works out for you.
I have little time for people who are looking for a conflict that doesn't involve virtual characters chopping each other up with virtual bone swords.
Judging by your post count, more time than me.
I know what the game is like. I don't have magical knowledge that gives me knowledge of this incident though. Also, I would argue that, if you want to know the true nature of or surrounding anything, learn from as many sources as possible.
Things have been awesome lately! Staff's been super, the pbase is more relaxed because the relationship is better.
I mostly only post when I'm at work and can't play.
The GDB, the alt-GDB, the TMC forums.... they're just not good sources of what playing the game is actually like. There can be interesting conversations to be had everywhere. But its all apocrypha compared to the one source of truth: actual gameplay.
People who subconsciously want to be victims will take actions to make themselves victims. I find it an irritating and distracting mindset, especially when it causes more empathy-possessing members of the community (whose gameplay I really respect) to start feeling discouraged about the hobby we happen to share.
I guess what I'm trying to say, Maziel (and everyone else), is this: stop worrying about other people and play the game. Have fun with us. Please.
Wasn't this the act of one guy? And he apparently took the website down when, judging by their thread, a number of them told him it wasn't cool? Surely it's a bit excessive to hold their entire community responsible.
I understand wizturbo and Armaddict's points, and the frustration staff must be going through, but I don't think 'banning them all' or 'giving some people the boot' is the right move; particularly banning those who played little to no part in the actual breach, and without so much as an explanation.
Idk, I'll await the announcement from staff with bated breath.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 23, 2016, 01:02:34 AM
I guess what I'm trying to say, Maziel, is this: stop worry about other people and play the game. Have fun with us. Please.
That's fair.
It's harder for me to enjoy the game when I see a line being crossed like Jeshin being banned is all, so I've got to bring it up yo.
...THAT is the moment you see a line being crossed?
Quote from: Armaddict on February 23, 2016, 01:13:49 AM
...THAT is the moment you see a line being crossed?
Yup. You hear all kinds of stories where it's hard to form a firm opinion. What is and isn't acceptable is related to how solidly I'm able to stand by my resolution. In this case, I'm quite certain of Jeshin's character and innocence.
Basically, it may be hard to judge a castle for attacking another, even if the ramifications are much worse. It's pretty clear to see someone beating a defenseless woman as being wrong though.
I have the highest regard for ReRanger as a player and a poster, so that is very disappointing, if true.
I don't think I will be logging into the shadow board again, I feel I haven't the stomach for it anymore. It, I mean the rage and shit, and the hack. In no way though, do I think of the posters there as Them, just players and flawed people like me. (Well apart from JC ;) )
Quote from: Coat of Arms on February 23, 2016, 01:04:30 AM
Surely it's a bit excessive to hold their entire community responsible.
When the "community" does nothing but upset people, spoil fun things, and talk shit on staff I don't see any reason to tolerate it. I'm not saying EVERYONE should be banned, but the ones who've been extremely negative don't need to be here. I would hope staff reconsider edge cases once things calm down, but I don't see being liberal with the ban hammer as an over reaction.
If a player in one of my table top games behaved as bad as some of the people in that 'community' I would kick them out of my game, and never talk to them again. I don't see why staff can't have that option too.
It is an exageration to say it does " nothing but".
I see the moment of line-crossing being the moment an entire group openly and proudly declared that they do not agree with certain rules of a game, and decided not to follow them. Then worked to undermine those rules. Then likened it to some sort of crusade against tyranny in a place where everyone else was pretty happy with things (something they brushed aside as 'fear of loss of karma', and etc).
That line was crossed a long time ago. But the new staff was pretty...accepting, and tolerant, and it bit them in the ass. So again. Delayed treatment, after months of public and personal-level communication about how discouraged it was to participate there. To act surprised about actions taken now is to willingly admit to having your head up...
Okay, fair. It is an exaggeration.
Let's just say the negatives seem to greatly outweigh the positives. That might not have been the case in the past, maybe a little free speech was necessary at one point in Armageddon's history, I cannot comment as I haven't been present nonstop for the last 20 years... But things are awesome right now. We don't need anymore negativity. Be constructive, or fuck off until you cool off.
Quote from: Armaddict on February 23, 2016, 01:24:03 AM
That line was crossed a long time ago. But the new staff was pretty...accepting, and tolerant, and it bit them in the ass. So again. Delayed treatment, after months of public and personal-level communication about how discouraged it was to participate there. To act surprised about actions taken now is to willingly admit to having your head up...
Bit them in the ass? No. I'm proud to say that the staff have been making some great positive changes lately, and yes some of them were the result of posts elsewhere. If you read them, you would see players talking about how it's becoming harder to complain about shit due to the positive changes.
I feel like poor Jeshin was caught in a cross-fire and now that he's dead, they're just sprinkling cocaine on his corpse to explain the situation (but again, I must be missing pieces of the puzzle that I'm hoping will be revealed this week)
I wish there was as much death and corruption erupting around me while playing the game. As the alt-boarders say is occurring.
Quote from: Armaddict on February 23, 2016, 01:24:03 AMThat line was crossed a long time ago.
Sure, the line was crossed a long time ago, but the point is that neither of those members were banned for those reasons (actually, I should give it the benefit of the doubt until I've seen the announcement). If that was the case, shouldn't it have happened a long time ago? What makes it seem like a sudden, unreasonable action to me is that it happened
now, when they hardly instigated anything nor did they actively support it.
Quote from: wizturbo on February 23, 2016, 01:24:41 AMWe don't need anymore negativity. Be constructive, or fuck off until you cool off.
Excuse me if I misunderstand. Are you referring to the members who were banned? From what I've seen, those members seemed plenty constructive to me and were, for the most part, relatively level-headed in their postings. They didn't appear to do anything befitting of a ban that wouldn't have earned them such long before the info leak.
General reminder to please refrain from attacking other players (whether or not they're posting in this thread) unless you're doing it with a bone sword somewhere in Allanak.
Assuming it's true that these guys who were banned don't really play anymore, I have to say I don't really understand what the symbolic bans accomplish except stirring the pot.
If we accept Armaddict's thesis that these guys are all terrorists, a lot of this strikes me as giving them exactly what they want.
Yeah, hostility and suspicion (especially to unfamiliar posters) is kinda exactly what the trolls want. They're not worth any more than a shrug and an eyeroll, in my opinion.
Not knowing either of these two other bans or the circumstances behind them... I can't say I give a shit. But everyone has friends, and we all have our biases and prejudices. It's never fun seeing someone punished.
Very much like a traditional table top RPG, playing the game is not some basic human right. If a player in one of my table top games came to a few sessions and I logged on to some forum somewhere and read them bad mouthing or criticizing my game in a way that I didn't like, I wouldn't invite them back. I don't see why the staff can't have that option too.
Now because this is a game with hundreds of players instead of a seven person table top adventure, there obviously needs to be more process behind kicking someone out of the club, but I've seen nothing to make me think that due process isn't already in place. Also, this is hardly some draconian message board where people aren't free to share their thoughts. I'm critical of staff decisions all the time, but I really make an effort to be constructive about it, and treat them well regardless of whether we agree or disagree. You know, just like how I would treat someone I was talking to face to face, instead of anonymously behind a computer screen.
...I didn't say anything about them being terrorists. Hyperbole much?
I said that the community built there routinely engages in behavior that is explicitly against the rules outlined by the game, and that there have been several statements made both publically, here, and personally, to those who posted complaints there...that such an outlet was not 'okay'. To expect anything other than a reaction, particularly when things start going out of hand, is trying a little -too- hard for the empathy side of things.
I mean...to keep it in the field of roleplaying, imagine being a DM and setting up a framework for how you wanted your game to play out. Not a predetermined plot, but a consistent manner in how things are done. It does well, it's achieving what it's supposed to. But someone decides they don't like it. So they stop following that framework. The DM goes with it for how long before it's 'okay' for them to say 'I don't want to deal with that anymore.'?
This isn't sudden and out of the blue, is the point. I don't see any reason for it to be permanent, nor do I see any reason for it to not happen, as it would be treated with any other repetitive infraction of the openly displayed rules.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 23, 2016, 02:28:39 AM
Yeah, hostility and suspicion (especially to unfamiliar posters) is kinda exactly what the trolls want. They're not worth any more than a shrug and an eyeroll, in my opinion.
The above is exactly why I haven't posted in this thread.
Good riddance.
Quote from: Armaddict on February 23, 2016, 02:36:19 AM
This isn't sudden and out of the blue, is the point. I don't see any reason for it to be permanent, nor do I see any reason for it to not happen, as it would be treated with any other repetitive infraction of the openly displayed rules.
There is a bit of a difference between repeatedly flaming (example: Mansa smells like old shoes) and making a concerted effort to personally attack the feeling of well being of members of this community (example: recent doings). Fuck not being permanent. These guys are assholes, hang them out to dry.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on February 23, 2016, 02:25:51 AM
If we accept Armaddict's thesis that these guys are all terrorists, a lot of this strikes me as giving them exactly what they want.
I'm a tesseract merchant. I stole an apple from Walmart. All tesseract merchants, and anyone who has interactions with them, is a filthy thief. I kind of feel like that's the logic being applied here. The reasoning given by Nergal on TMC seems to be that Jeshin is supportive of a community that committed a criminal act: 1) He's interested in talking about it in a level-headed way that I'd like to see more of both here, there, and everywhere, 2) Everyone is being grouped together because one person did a thing and posted it there? He knew that talking about how you were talking about killing yourself on Facebook is something you might read there - anything goes. Nearly nothing being filtered is a poor way to tie an agenda to others using the same medium. You can go there and tell everyone they're a fucking dick that should go fuck themselves, their mother, and to go crawl under a rock to raise their new family without being banned.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 23, 2016, 02:28:39 AM
Yeah, hostility and suspicion (especially to unfamiliar posters) is kinda exactly what the trolls want. They're not worth any more than a shrug and an eyeroll, in my opinion.
I'm not sure if you're calling me a troll or not. :-\
Quote from: Maziel on February 23, 2016, 02:47:48 AM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 23, 2016, 02:28:39 AM
Yeah, hostility and suspicion (especially to unfamiliar posters) is kinda exactly what the trolls want. They're not worth any more than a shrug and an eyeroll, in my opinion.
I'm not sure if you're calling me a troll or not. :-\
Nah, I think he meant those guys on the shadowboards (?)
Nah. The hacker and those who think he struck some sort of Edward Snowden blow for liberty, those are the trolls. Everyone else are just people with their own set of feelings.
Sorry for the confusion.
Quote from: Maziel on February 22, 2016, 10:54:46 PM
Apparently Jeshin has been banned. He's the optional realities guy. His interest has always seemed to be half scientific and half news reporting. Banning him from a board he doesn't post in for taking interest in the how's and why's seems excessive. Maybe I'll get banned for raising awareness, but this is a line that I won't stand idly by for. He's a reasonable, well mannered individual. You should be seeking advice from the guy making it his prerogative to learn these things to help create a richer RPI scene, not banning him.
Quote from: Insigne on February 22, 2016, 11:35:18 PM
Quote from: Maziel on February 22, 2016, 10:54:46 PMAlso please don't ban me :(
I'm holding out hope that people don't still have to be concerned about something like this.
Excuse me if I'm stepping out of line. I think Maziel brings up a good point. What is to gain from banning the likes of Jeshin or RedRanger? I don't know. Unless there's something I'm missing, I hope this decision gets reconsidered.
I agree completely.
He was a serious voice of reason in SoI and has been a pretty easy going mediator type in most circles he's passed through. What we could ever hope to gain from banning him is completely beyond me, especially considering the strides OR has made in giving the RPI genre (and most games in it, including Arm) another venue for exposure. We're not exactly swimming in new blood in the RPI community and anyone looking to improve that situation should be enjoying a degree of diplomatic immunity.
I only played with RR a couple of times here and some on EoE, but he seemed pretty easy going, too.
If there's something these guys did beyond give their opinion on an evolving situation, I'd be curious to know what it was.
Does anyone remember those 'hardcore' console warrior forums from the late '90s? Guys getting NINTENDO inked to their noodle biceps and swearing they were going to punch out every other neckbeard at NerdCon who didn't share their loyalty to a particular brand name? This entire scenario is starting to have that kind of read to it.
Those villains on the not-us forum? They're just like we are over here, unfortunate people who have wasted too much of their life on one particular text-based video game and have developed some pretty strong opinions on it.
I mean, you're all getting pretty fired up about it, so what do you actually
want? A unilateral ban on 'the other guys'? Cull the heretics? Ban 'em if you got 'em? Sounds like a good way to go back to having 40 people on at peak to me.
One guy took his beef with the staff too far and two forums full of people who love and play the same embarrassing niche game want to burn each other down over it.
This is stupid. Just play the fucking game.
Quote from: Maziel on February 23, 2016, 02:39:40 AMEveryone is being grouped together because one person did a thing and posted it there?
If you look at the posts regarding the Arm clone that was thrown up, you'll see it was
n't the vast majority that spoke out against this. Do we really want to talk about the conduct and specific comments said forum has made against the rest of the playerbase?
The fact is people have voluntarily chosen to participate in an unmoderated discussion of the playerbase and staff of Armageddon, some of whom are quite hostile towards said players and staff. Furthermore there has been a not-insiginificant amount of rules violations from said participants.
I do not see why there is surprise that those participants are being banned. They took said conversations to the unmoderated venue because they knew it was against the rules of the game and would not be tolerated on this forum. Have some of the participants tried to do good? Definitely. Have the majority? Buggered if I know, but a definite sizable portion have been hostile towards players and/or staff of this game and only a minority have spoken out against the rule infractions that the participants of that forum engage in.
The fact people weren't banned the second they posted there is a testament to how much the staff have changed towards tolerance when it comes to players breaking the rules.
Quote from: John on February 23, 2016, 03:35:34 AM
Quote from: Maziel on February 23, 2016, 02:39:40 AMEveryone is being grouped together because one person did a thing and posted it there?
The fact people weren't banned the second they posted there is a testament to how much the staff have changed towards tolerance when it comes to players breaking the rules.
And then there's fact of
who was banned and
when and
why.
I've honestly said all I can. See you guys 'round.
in vs out crowds
as cats
(http://i.imgur.com/Y5I8H95.gif)
Quote from: Maziel on February 22, 2016, 08:24:09 PM
I don't think feeling like an outsider and being a problem player are synonymous evilcabbage
I've never been considered a problem player to my knowledge over the past several years, but I'm definitely an outsider on the gdb. I feel like an outsider in most communities I make contact with though. That said, I've definitely witnessed eliticism and cliqueish attitudes that, in combination with heavy handed restrictions/repercussions for expressing ones opinion (if it's too adverse or whatever), contribute to the popularity of the shadowboard. It makes me afraid to post thoughts/criticism.
you can always be my friend.
cabbages welcome all to the glorious army that will one day claim control of zalanthas.
I'm personally glad staff haven't weighed in with reasons. I remember when they used to actually defend their decisions in public posts (anyone remember Nyr?) and then got even more jumped on by people going "nuh uh!" and "why are you airing my dirty laundry!" If staff decides to explain it, I'd rather have it happen as a cohesive joint statement. Which I'm kind of expecting from the whole "we're going to handle it staff side and then let you know" post.
Meanwhile, you can be a perfectly reasonable voice to your peers and be practically impossible to deal with from a position of authority. I personally know people who are like that--great friends but I wouldn't want to be their boss. As someone's peer, you're going to have different interactions with them than as someone's parent, etc. You can say someone is an otherwise great player. But you aren't interacting with them on the same level as staff, so I'm going to go ahead and take your statement with a grain of salt.
The fact that only a few people have been banned when more than that many people have admitted in this thread that they've read things over there tells me that this is not some blanket ban of anyone who has been active on that board ever. But even if it was, it's a board that has a theme of breaking very clearly stated game rules. I would be completely unsurprising if these "reasonable" people who were banned have been breaking other game rules and you're simply unaware of it.
Quote from: valeria on February 23, 2016, 08:51:17 AM
I'm personally glad staff haven't weighed in with reasons. I remember when they used to actually defend their decisions in public posts (anyone remember Nyr?) and then got even more jumped on by people going "nuh uh!" and "why are you airing my dirty laundry!" If staff decides to explain it, I'd rather have it happen as a cohesive joint statement. Which I'm kind of expecting from the whole "we're going to handle it staff side and then let you know" post.
Meanwhile, you can be a perfectly reasonable voice to your peers and be practically impossible to deal with from a position of authority. I personally know people who are like that--great friends but I wouldn't want to be their boss. As someone's peer, you're going to have different interactions with them than as someone's parent, etc. You can say someone is an otherwise great player. But you aren't interacting with them on the same level as staff, so I'm going to go ahead and take your statement with a grain of salt.
Nyr was greatly criticized for his lack of transparency/communication about things.
And that's what makes Jeshin so special. He doesn't play the game and hasn't for sometime. Whatever got him banned seems to be in the public view.
Maybe I'm wrong about that. If I am, I'd definitely take a response like ' he has been playing and acted as a problem player lately' into consideration.
You know what I find ironic:
"Oh stop making a fuss over Barka's actions, it's not like any actual damage was done plus he removed any personal compromising information, he didn't mean to let that slip."
But when J and RR get banned, they don't remind each other:
"Oh stop making a fuss over Jeshin and RedRanger's bannage, it's not like any actual damage was done since both have stated they don't care, and they weren't playing anyway."
I'm really glad I stayed out of this. (The collective) you're a bunch of angry motherfuckers.
Quote from: Maziel on February 23, 2016, 09:05:03 AM
Quote from: valeria on February 23, 2016, 08:51:17 AM
I'm personally glad staff haven't weighed in with reasons. I remember when they used to actually defend their decisions in public posts (anyone remember Nyr?) and then got even more jumped on by people going "nuh uh!" and "why are you airing my dirty laundry!" If staff decides to explain it, I'd rather have it happen as a cohesive joint statement. Which I'm kind of expecting from the whole "we're going to handle it staff side and then let you know" post.
Meanwhile, you can be a perfectly reasonable voice to your peers and be practically impossible to deal with from a position of authority. I personally know people who are like that--great friends but I wouldn't want to be their boss. As someone's peer, you're going to have different interactions with them than as someone's parent, etc. You can say someone is an otherwise great player. But you aren't interacting with them on the same level as staff, so I'm going to go ahead and take your statement with a grain of salt.
Nyr was greatly criticized for his lack of transparency/communication about things.
And that's what makes Jeshin so special. He doesn't play the game and hasn't for sometime. Whatever got him banned seems to be in the public view.
Maybe I'm wrong about that. If I am, I'd definitely take a response like ' he has been playing and acted as a problem player lately' into consideration.
It is wonderful you are a strong Jeshin fanboy, and Ima let you finish... but you are talking about someone who once played six consecutive characters in Tuluk with the same objective. This objective was to fuck with, depose, or murder a single PC.
He isn't this golden god of roleplaying perfection. He is a slightly twinky individual of sub-par cunning.
And I still stick by my previous statement. They chose to act with or support a community based around ruining the enjoyment of our community. Yeah, so its tribal. The difference is the Arm community has not once acted to harm the Jtarder community.
Lines were drawn, they crossed them. Let them hang.
^^ That.
I post on the alt gdb.
I looked at it for the first time the other day, and I think I sprained my extraocular muscles from all the ::)
Actually, it reminded me a lot of how I was when I first started playing the game 17 years ago, minus all the conspiracy-theorizing.
i posted there as bilbojagginz.
i was infamously trollish to them.
at one point, i kind of sympathized with one or two of their points.
mostly, i just don't like those people.
so there you have it. i outed myself right here on the gdb. come of it what may, i don't care. i'm not afraid to stand in the light.
Before this descends into flaming (and flaming of anyone is still against the rules, even if you disagree with what they have done in the past or do elsewhere on the Internet), I'm going to echo something posted earlier: before making an angry or hostile post, please consider taking a deep breath, maybe go for a walk or something, and then come back and re-read before you post. Any variety of name-calling, no matter how much you think it's justified, isn't appropriate.
Quote from: evilcabbage on February 23, 2016, 12:21:20 PM
i posted there as bilbojagginz.
i was infamously trollish to them.
at one point, i kind of sympathized with one or two of their points.
mostly, i just don't like those people.
so there you have it. i outed myself right here on the gdb. come of it what may, i don't care. i'm not afraid to stand in the light.
I wish your name had been bilboshagginz.
Also, bragging about trolling another community is not a good life choice. Let's not devolve to that.
okay. point taken.
Quote from: Malifaxis on February 23, 2016, 10:49:59 AM
It is wonderful you are a strong Jeshin fanboy, and Ima let you finish... but you are talking about someone who once played six consecutive characters in Tuluk with the same objective. This objective was to fuck with, depose, or murder a single PC.
He isn't this golden god of roleplaying perfection. He is a slightly twinky individual of sub-par cunning.
And I still stick by my previous statement. They chose to act with or support a community based around ruining the enjoyment of our community. Yeah, so its tribal. The difference is the Arm community has not once acted to harm the Jtarder community.
Lines were drawn, they crossed them. Let them hang.
I have no idea about his RP quality. Unless he was doing stuff that was bannable, I don't think it's relevant. And I'm not a fanboy - he just takes an easily discernable role that's also easy to defend. That said, I would say that I like him.
I post on both boards. I like to think that I'm reasonable and don't troll either. Do I support the other board? Idk. I don't post often on either. I post sometimes when I think I can contribute something without being cut to bits - easier over there on that one. Saying I supported the hack (which was actually a former admin giving someone a password) is like saying I support evil cabbage trolling the other board because I post here sometimes. Like what? It isn't fair to view anything except total rejection as support. 99% of the time when I disagree with someone here, I don't say so. I do when I've committed to an argument though.
One thing I don't understand explains all of the things I don't understand. Try understanding, not hating, and you'll see that the people over there are largely nerdy and cool dudes who want to enjoy the game too. Some of them are vocal about their chips on their shoulders like you, but others aren't acting to harm the other community.
the people who are largely over there definitely do not want to enjoy the game like we do. if they did, they would not have any reason to be over there.
the people who largely inhabit those boards do so because A) they want the big scoop on the latest, b) they want to complain in an area where they can say the first thing that comes to mind without having to fear reproach for being unnecessarily mean or slanderous, and c) they hated one particular small group of staffers that i largely had only a few minor interactions with that were overly negative.
i don't know or care to know why you post over there.
creating several pcs with the express purpose of ruining another persons fun is pretty griefy and shitty, and i would not be surprised if there was a rule against it. so. there's that.
Quote from: evilcabbage on February 23, 2016, 03:29:37 PM
the people who are largely over there definitely do not want to enjoy the game like we do. if they did, they would not have any reason to be over there.
the people who largely inhabit those boards do so because A) they want the big scoop on the latest, b) they want to complain in an area where they can say the first thing that comes to mind without having to fear reproach for being unnecessarily mean or slanderous, and c) they hated one particular small group of staffers that i largely had only a few minor interactions with that were overly negative.
i don't know or care to know why you post over there.
creating several pcs with the express purpose of ruining another persons fun is pretty griefy and shitty, and i would not be surprised if there was a rule against it. so. there's that.
I disagree with you all over. There's no reason to get into it though. I'll stick with 'Jeshin isn't any of that, and him not being any of that isn't magically supportive of anyone that is'
And I was pretty dumb with at least my first dozen PCs
Quote from: Maziel on February 23, 2016, 03:21:14 PM
Quote from: Malifaxis on February 23, 2016, 10:49:59 AM
It is wonderful you are a strong Jeshin fanboy, and Ima let you finish... but you are talking about someone who once played six consecutive characters in Tuluk with the same objective. This objective was to fuck with, depose, or murder a single PC.
He isn't this golden god of roleplaying perfection. He is a slightly twinky individual of sub-par cunning.
And I still stick by my previous statement. They chose to act with or support a community based around ruining the enjoyment of our community. Yeah, so its tribal. The difference is the Arm community has not once acted to harm the Jtarder community.
Lines were drawn, they crossed them. Let them hang.
I have no idea about his RP quality. Unless he was doing stuff that was bannable, I don't think it's relevant. And I'm not a fanboy - he just takes an easily discernable rolen that's also easy to defend. That said, I would say that I like him.
I post on both boards. I like to think that I'm reasonable and don't troll either. Do I support the other board? Idk. I don't post often on either. I post sometimes when I think I can contribute something without being cut to bits - easier over there on that one. Saying I supported the hack (which was actually a former admin giving someone a password) is like saying I support evil cabbage trolling the other board because I post here sometimes. Like what? It isn't fair to view anything except total rejection as support. 99% of the time when I disagree with someone here, I don't say so. I do when I've committed to an argument though.
One thing I don't understand explains all of the things I don't understand. Try understanding, not hating, and you'll see that the people over there are largely nerdy and cool dudes who want to enjoy the game too. Some of them have chips on their shoulders like you, but others aren't acting to harm the other community.
Point one: You were speaking of him as a great benevolent golden pillar of awesome. His character is questionable at best.
Point two: By using it, you legitimize it. You add credence to its existence. That board provided nothing positive to the game, and actively tried to destroy plotlines and secrets. If you can't grasp that, I do not know how else to explain it.
Point three: I do understand. I also understand that while an infection does serve to strengthen a body's immune system after the fact (ie: it does good) you first have to overcome the damage it wreaks (ie: bad) in order to gain that benefit. Once we have cut off this putrescent testicle of failed humanity (the alt board) we will all be better able to enjoy this game without all the fucking spoilers and plit ruination that goes on over there.
Chip on my shoulder? You have no fucking idea.
I am walking away from this for now, because my barrels are spinning up and if I don't take a breath, I am going to get very eloquent.
is there like, a 'suggest this thread be locked' button somewhere? because this is gonna get ugly otherwise.
please don't get flamey guys. take a deep breath, calm down.
i'm not saying jeshin was that. i said, largely.
i should say, 'most of the vocal people over there', because that would be a more true statement.
look, the point i'm trying to make, i get it. you want to defend him. i respect that. but he is no better, or worse, than anyone else over there. he has his own faults.
i respect what he tries to do for the rpi community, but it would look infinitely better if he did not post over there. at all. the place spawned out of hatred. hatred is all it stands for, at the end of the day. it doesn't matter what you think that place is. at the end of the day, it only exists as a spawning ground of hate.
You could report it.
I suggest everyone relax.
at the end of the day, this thread here is supposed to be discussing the letter to the playerbase.
i would like it to remain unlocked at least long enough for staff to come together, discuss what they want to say, and then post it here so that we can react (civilly) accordingly.
Quote from: Malifaxis on February 23, 2016, 03:35:39 PM
Point one: You were speaking of him as a great benevolent golden pillar of awesome. His character is questionable at best.
Point two: By using it, you legitimize it. You add credence to its existence. That board provided nothing positive to the game, and actively tried to destroy plotlines and secrets. If you can't grasp that, I do not know how else to explain it.
Point three: I do understand. I also understand that while an infection does serve to strengthen a body's immune system after the fact (ie: it does good) you first have to overcome the damage it wreaks (ie: bad) in order to gain that benefit. Once we have cut off this putrescent testicle of failed humanity (the alt board) we will all be better able to enjoy this game without all the fucking spoilers and plit ruination that goes on over there.
Chip on my shoulder? You have no fucking idea.
I am walking away from this for now, because my barrels are spinning up and if I don't take a breath, I am going to get very eloquent.
I definitely didn't say that. I don't think if it would matter if I did. My personal opinions of him are irrelevant compared to the lack of evidence saying that he should be banned.
That board had added positive things to the game. If you don't know them, I'll quote you with, "If you can't grasp that, I do not know how else to explain it." I will say that everyone should know how skills increase though.
The board exists because of the shortcomings of this one. I support the good stuff here and not the shortcomings. I support the discussions over there which this one facilitated a need for, but not the ones that are fueled by unjustified prejudice - there are examples of behavior going beyond what is justified on both sides in the name of an unrelated wrong. Yeah, the 'hack' is probably much worse than anything any one person has done here, but it's still the act of one person.
What's left to be said, though?
This has mostly turned into who got banned/who is posting on jcarter.org and I don't really see the point of it all, since we don't know why they got banned and what the Staff is planning to do about it all.
Quote from: evilcabbage on February 23, 2016, 03:43:23 PM
at the end of the day, this thread here is supposed to be discussing the letter to the playerbase.
i would like it to remain unlocked at least long enough for staff to come together, discuss what they want to say, and then post it here so that we can react (civilly) accordingly.
Jeshin is related to this as he was banned in retialation.
Quote from: Maziel on February 23, 2016, 03:52:15 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on February 23, 2016, 03:43:23 PM
at the end of the day, this thread here is supposed to be discussing the letter to the playerbase.
i would like it to remain unlocked at least long enough for staff to come together, discuss what they want to say, and then post it here so that we can react (civilly) accordingly.
Jeshin is related to this as he was banned in retialation.
Then he can email the staff and work things out if he wants back in. I'm sure if he's innocent of any serious offense, they'll be open to letting him play again... /shrug
I'm all for being liberal with the bans, and working out the edge cases and false positives on a case by case basis if needed.
exactly. gather the ones you know are vocal over there and (maybe for the right or wrong reasons) ban them, then go through and sort out who isn't as much of a problem, who can be trusted to come back.
people like redranger, even if they don't want to come back, should be allowed the opportunity. i loved rping with redranger.
Quote from: wizturbo on February 23, 2016, 03:59:11 PM
Quote from: Maziel on February 23, 2016, 03:52:15 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on February 23, 2016, 03:43:23 PM
at the end of the day, this thread here is supposed to be discussing the letter to the playerbase.
i would like it to remain unlocked at least long enough for staff to come together, discuss what they want to say, and then post it here so that we can react (civilly) accordingly.
Jeshin is related to this as he was banned in retialation.
Then he can email the staff and work things out if he wants back in. I'm sure if he's innocent of any serious offense, they'll be open to letting him play again... /shrug
I'm all for being liberal with the bans, and working out the edge cases and false positives on a case by case basis if needed.
Thank you for saying this in a way that my trigger-shaped fingers couldn't type.
Wizturbo is the sane and calming voice of pure reason. Respect his authoritah.
Quote from: Malifaxis on February 23, 2016, 04:07:35 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on February 23, 2016, 03:59:11 PM
Quote from: Maziel on February 23, 2016, 03:52:15 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on February 23, 2016, 03:43:23 PM
at the end of the day, this thread here is supposed to be discussing the letter to the playerbase.
i would like it to remain unlocked at least long enough for staff to come together, discuss what they want to say, and then post it here so that we can react (civilly) accordingly.
Jeshin is related to this as he was banned in retialation.
Then he can email the staff and work things out if he wants back in. I'm sure if he's innocent of any serious offense, they'll be open to letting him play again... /shrug
I'm all for being liberal with the bans, and working out the edge cases and false positives on a case by case basis if needed.
Thank you for saying this in a way that my trigger-shaped fingers couldn't type.
Wizturbo is the sane and calming voice of pure reason. Respect his authoritah.
The irony here is that the 'be liberal with the bans' is a vicious circle. Do not knowingly strike harder than you need to, as it gives cause to others to do the same.
That is a philosophy I followed for years, and it put my life in the shitter.
Fuck not hitting back with every damn weapon you own once someone has struck at something you care for.
being completely blunt and honest, participating in any of the discussions, even going over there, 'is' more or less grounds for a ban. we're making ourselves privy to information that should not be viewed in such an uncontrolled manner.
secrets are discussed. even if i didn't want to see them, they were there for the viewing.
i should be banned just for posting over there.
i'm not. i'm thankful. but it is an option (i would understandably be ruffled if i was) that hangs over me.
they have lashed out, as normal people do. they will calm down, as normal people do, and they will probably unban at least a couple people.
There aren't going to be any sweeping bans for being on one forum (regardless of our personal opinion of it). Just like Staff isn't going to shutdown the MUD over this. Enough with the hyperbole everyone, sheesh.
Really, the only people who know for certain why he was banned are Staff. The banned players themselves may not be fully cognizant of their guilt, if any. Certainly there's plenty of cognitive dissonance among the playerbase (or the internet in general, for that matter).
For me, it comes down to who do I trust more: individuals of dubious reputations banned for reasons unknown to me (beyond whatever they choose to say it is); or a group of players who have demonstrated far greater (if by no means perfect) levels of maturity and consideration for the good of the game than many of the rest of us.
The only thing I find upsetting about all of this (hack, bans, gibbering threads) is that other players are upset. Some I sympathize with more than others. I think everyone just needs to shrug and get on with their lives. Play the game, or don't. It'll be here if you want to come back.
Quote from: Malifaxis on February 23, 2016, 04:15:18 PM
That is a philosophy I followed for years, and it put my life in the shitter.
Fuck not hitting back with every damn weapon you own once someone has struck at something you care for.
The anti-gandhi philosphy ;)
I can't speak to what has, hasn't, or will work for you in your own life just as you can't with mine. My own personal opinion is that this will only make things worse here. The staff have been working on facilitating different conversations more, being more understanding, and thinking more open in general. The result has been a huge player increase and people on the other forum admitting that it's becoming more about petty complaints now that there is becoming less of a need. In this case, if the past is indicative of the future, I think that the logical course is obvious.
I can't speak for the other mods, but the reason that I personally haven't locked this thread are because:
1) People have mostly stayed on the acceptable side of strong feelings without flaming (disagreement with someone else's position isn't flaming, even if it's repetitive and more strongly worded than the route I'd choose) and have mostly stayed on topic. If people weren't discussing it here, they'd be discussing it elsewhere. The reason it has its own thread is so that people who don't care or feel like the discussion has run its course aren't forced to read it.
and 2) Open discourse about things, including staff response and how/why, means that feelings are in the open and being discussed instead of festering to resentments in the dark.
But if things go back into personal attacks and name-calling, I'm locking it, and we can have a new discussion when staff expounds on the open letter later.
Bans were dumb. Wrong move short term and long term. Perfect chance to help settle some of these stupid disputes over a stupid text game turned into more irritation and exclusion. The tough on crime attitudes are all posturing. You can support staff and disagree with them. They make emotional mistakes too. And it doesn't help a lot of people feel under attack.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 23, 2016, 04:23:16 PM
The only thing I find upsetting about all of this (hack, bans, gibbering threads) is that other players are upset. Some I sympathize with more than others. I think everyone just needs to shrug and get on with their lives. Play the game, or don't. It'll be here if you want to come back.
Who would you say is really upset about this? I think most of those (including me) who are participating in this 'conversation' is because it's the hot topic of the moment, not so much because we're upset/really care that much about it.
It sucked, yeah, but I'm pretty sure we've all moved on.
People who were banned are probably upset. People who were friends with those people or otherwise sympathetic to them are upset. Staff are upset that their work and personal information was shared without their consent. People I respect being upset for any of the former.
I suppose that'd be ranking it from "Zero shits given" to "Some shits given" regarding the situation(s).
Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 23, 2016, 04:50:26 PM
People who were banned are probably upset. People who were friends with those people or otherwise sympathetic to them are upset. Staff are upset that their work and personal information was shared without their consent. People I respect being upset for any of the former.
I suppose that'd be ranking it from "Zero shits given" to "Some shits given" regarding the situation(s).
While I understand the sentiment of anger and upsetting they might have gone through (especially Staff), I think that by now they have moved on to where they are looking at it with a more collected and methodical plan as to what to do from there. Those who were banned honestly don't seem that upset to me? Otherwise, fair enough, I'm not one of the affected people by it so I can't second guess their feelings.
It just seems like they have a plan, or at the very least working on one and the best we can do is to wait for it.
They absolutely got what they deserved. I have been gone a while but since returning I am sensing a culture of deviation that is allowing more 'OOC' talking amongst different players. I get this feeling for this thread and others lately, where people openly talk about stuff that wouldn't fly a few years ago. Mostly because it could ruin someone else's discovery in game. What happened people? This seems to have spun into full blown dissension and a place was created where these shadow boarders fostered someone who would do this. Get rid of all of them, I don't want to play with them.
Quote from: Case on February 23, 2016, 04:46:25 PM
Bans were dumb. Wrong move short term and long term. Perfect chance to help settle some of these stupid disputes over a stupid text game turned into more irritation and exclusion. The tough on crime attitudes are all posturing. You can support staff and disagree with them. They make emotional mistakes too. And it doesn't help a lot of people feel under attack.
They shouldn't feel under attack. They should feel like they 'cheated' and stepped outside of what is deemed allowable for this community. Good bye, don't let the door hit you.
Quote from: Dan on February 23, 2016, 05:02:12 PM
They absolutely got what they deserved. I have been gone a while but since returning I am sensing a culture of deviation that is allowing more 'OOC' talking amongst different players. I get this feeling for this thread and others lately, where people openly talk about stuff that wouldn't fly a few years ago. Mostly because it could ruin someone else's discovery in game. What happened people? This seems to have spun into full blown dissension and a place was created where these shadow boarders fostered someone who would do this. Get rid of all of them, I don't want to play with them.
I want to play with you.
I agree with Valeria. Talking about things in the open is better than festering in the dark.
The best way to play with people is to play the game. Not the forums.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 23, 2016, 05:09:00 PM
The best way to play with people is to play the game. Not the forums.
The best way to take part in a discussion is to take part in the discussion, not play the game.
I'm sorry if that comes off as being snarky, but that sentiment keeps being repeated and this is the most concise and incisive way I could find to relay my point.
It's a fair point, assuming you see any value in the discussion itself.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 23, 2016, 05:09:00 PM
The best way to play with people is to play the game. Not the forums.
While I've never brought myself to be able to do it, a good number of players I've respected over the years ONLY read Staff Announcements and Clan Boards. Thats not to say doing so made them better players, or even made them more trustworthy...
But even the game's own forums can be a HUGE downer. 20 people out of the 300 or so that play this game are very vocal about things. Just remember there are 200 other people a week who SUPPOSEDLY play this game as well, who don't give a shit about shadowboards, or whether you now know how to better train a warrior's set of skills. They just want to log in and have fun.
Do you guys still have fun in this game? If you logged in, right now, would you have fun?
yup.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 23, 2016, 05:16:57 PM
It's a fair point, assuming you see any value in the discussion itself.
I do :D
I don't take part in discussions I don't see value in ;)
Edit: speaking of which, I agree with Malken on there not being much left to say until we hear from staff
Quote from: Riev on February 23, 2016, 05:18:24 PM
Do you guys still have fun in this game? If you logged in, right now, would you have fun?
I log in, I have a good time. I don't even need other players around to have a good time, they are just jelly on good bread, when it's on.
I look at the GDB, I don't have a good time. I get annoyed and exhausted and remember why I don't like reading the GDB. I usually keep all the tabs closed except for staff announcements and clan specific. I -survive- that.
It's when I send in character reports, or even use the request tool that I feel that ugh of being disenfranchised. It just feels impersonal, you can't read the tone of intent in the replies and, to be honest, it feels most of the time, to me, like anything I've written is simply glossed over and the point was missed, because there has to be a backlog of other requests sent in. It feels, to me, like my enjoyable hobby is immersed with support tickets and tps reports.
When I play, it's always fun. It's everything else that really just destroys the desire I have to try. At this point, I am just against trying to use the request tool anymore to open lines of communication because it feels like being left alone is less frustrating and what the staff actually wants out of me. As I said, this it how it feels, to me.
Quote from: Vague on February 23, 2016, 05:53:22 PM
When I play, it's always fun. It's everything else that really just destroys the desire I have to try. At this point, I am just against trying to use the request tool anymore to open lines of communication because it feels like being left alone is less frustrating and what the staff actually wants out of me. As I said, this it how it feels, to me.
I actually really like this point. I hate the request tool. I understand why it exists, but I hate it. I'd much prefer talking to staff in-game in some private OOC room, or through a simple chat messaging tool that logs your conversations. In the service industry, the overwhelming majority of people prefer live contact channels over delayed responses like emails. There's a reason for that, live support makes you feel like the other person is engaged with you, you can understand context and tone more easily (even through text) and you don't have those long wait times that make you feel forgotten. I recognize that live chat with staff might be challenging due to time zone issues, but I think having staff "office hours" similar to a university professor could be a great solution for that. Show up at their "office hours" and talk to them live in an OOC format.
Some staff are certainly better communicators than others, but I DO feel the struggle of the bureaucracy inherent in the system itself. My wonder is, with an announcement that says "Hey. So. People outside the community did something pretty heinous. We're going to say in very uncertain terms that the possibility of the game going on hiatus could occur" would be DEVASTATING to someone who doesn't play Forum Battlez.
It's knee-jerk, people should know that by now. The chances of the game going down because some staff are angry would seem low, to me. But the idea that an official drafted statement stated "We are considering our options" and "nothing about this is worth risk of exposure" really feels like a horrible downer. Its very official sounding, and I'd be surprised if NOBODY on staff considered quitting over the breach, but the idea of "considering our options" is, to most people, a "we're thinking about just suspending the game over this".
To me, as a player who hasn't rocked the boat, and has just enjoyed this pastime... that felt both heavyhanded and like part of me would be taken away, without my consent, because of someone else's actions.
Quote from: Maziel on February 23, 2016, 04:11:43 PM
The irony here is that the 'be liberal with the bans' is a vicious circle. Do not knowingly strike harder than you need to, as it gives cause to others to do the same.
I feel the opposite is true. I believe that lax enforcement on rules that have been in place for 20 years was the beginning of the vicious cycle. If staff banned everyone who posted on those boards the moment they were discovered years ago, people would realize there are consequences for breaking these rules, and maybe fewer people would be willing to openly break them? Maybe there wouldn't have been an audience for this wiki leak in that case, or the offending party might not have been fired up to do this at all if they didn't feel empowered by their "shadow community". I'm not saying the staff need to ban every single person who has ever posted there, but going after prominent posters there seems more than justified. I also don't see any reason to make the bans permanent in most cases, and from what I gather, very few bans have ever been permanent.
The GDB and the game itself is not some heavily censored place where people can't speak their mind, I criticize and argue with staff and players alike on these boards constantly without any "retaliation". I disagree with people more often than I agree. But I disagree
here, following the very simple rules that were created for very good reasons. If people feel they need a place to "freely" disagree, they're full of it. They're not looking for freedom of speech, they're looking for a place to freely break the rules, or freely flame or harass others without consequence... I don't see any reason the staff should tolerate that.
I know there are some long term players who've admitted to posting there, and I don't wish them any ill. Hell, some of them I really, really like... But that doesn't mean what they did wasn't the wrong thing to do. Even if a lot of good people did the wrong thing in this case.
Should I be banned wizturbo?
Quote from: Is Friday on February 23, 2016, 07:06:38 PM
Should I be banned wizturbo?
Sorry, I was editing my post to address exactly this kind of scenario. Here are the parts that apply to your question:
QuoteI'm not saying the staff need to ban every single person who has ever posted there, but going after prominent posters there seems more than justified. I also don't see any reason to make the bans permanent in most cases, and from what I gather, very few bans have ever been permanent.
QuoteI know there are some long term players who've admitted to posting there, and I don't wish them any ill. Hell, some of them I really, really like... But that doesn't mean what they did wasn't the wrong thing to do. Even if a lot of good people did the wrong thing in this case.
Okay. To my knowledge I haven't broken any rules while posting there. I didn't even play the 1999 version of Arm. (Not for lack of interest, but for lack of free time.)
Are you suggesting a blanket ban should be instituted for everyone associated with the board? There are Helpers and some ex-staff over there.
When that guy you like who's always logged in is gone
Right when the bans on the hackers are implemented
No, as I said:
"I'm not saying the staff need to ban every single person who has ever posted there, but going after prominent posters there seems more than justified. I also don't see any reason to make the bans permanent in most cases, and from what I gather, very few bans have ever been permanent."
If people posted there and did not share any IC information and were behaving like generally civil people, I don't see any reason to punish them for it, even if it was technically against the rules. This is especially true because of the lax enforcement for so many years.
Think of it like a freeway with a posted speed limit of 50 MPH, but there's never been any enforcement of that speed limit. Would it be reasonable to suddenly install a ticketing camera on that freeway and fine every single person who drives on it without warning? No, of course not. Would it be reasonable to have the cops pull over the guys who were going 120 MPH on that freeway? Yes.
Since posting on a forums isn't something you can numerical quantify, I can understand where some staff might perceive a poster over there as "going 120 mph", when in reality they were really only "going 80 mph". In those circumstances, the person who was "only going 80 mph" could always email the staff and say "Hey, sorry I was speeding, but I was only going 80 MPH and the punishment you gave me was as if I was going 120 mph, any chance you could reconsider?" I'm guessing that staff will be pretty forgiving in many those cases, because ultimately their goal isn't to kick players out of the game, but to keep them in-game so they can kill each other with bone swords.
Personally, I'd rather staff be responding to reports, animating NPCs, and playing with us than monitoring other forums, figuring out which wankers with a persecution complex need banning. They'll generally volunteer themselves here or in game fine enough on their own.
Okay, so.. since Red Ranger and Jenshin were banned after the wiki was released but weren't actually involved in the release, are we to infer that part of the staff reaction to the wiki getting published is to ban players who post on the alt-GDB?
*shrug*
That's what I'm inferring. Doesn't mean I'm right, maybe those guys got banned for something unrelated? I dunno.
So, the timing of it is just a hilarious coincidence?
Naw.
The timing being a coincidence isn't what I'm referring to in this case. I'm saying maybe they're being banned for a reason other than merely posting on the alt-GDB, and the timing of that ban coincides with the wiki breach. My guess is they're being banned for what they said or how they said it, not where they said it. Otherwise we'd be seeing a lot more accounts banned. Again though, I really have no idea, I'm just making some assumptions based off very limited information.
Why does that whole 'hu-man, fellow hu-mans' statement in ask the staff question make me think of Ferengi instead of ... whatever is it they're trying to portray?
This is all rather silly.
We should all just get along and have fun.
Or something.
Jeshi has had the decency to admit he has done things that violate the rules and are worthy of banning. So we can put to rest the idea Jeshin is an innocent bystander.
The problem with that board, and what undermines the good it HAS done, is the fact that the person running the board, along with several other participants, are all in favour of hosting information gained without the consent of staff, are more than happy to play and host in a stolen Arm clone and will continue to encourage people to get further information through any means necessary and throw them up online. Many people have walked away from that forum following their most recent behaviour. Others have not. Some are being banned as a result of their time on that forum.
Whether or not further bans are required will depend on what guidelines staff are using to ban people. Until such time those guidelines are known I see no value in speculating on whether someone deserved to be banned.
As it is, certain people of that forum have continuously shown contempt for staff and many of us players. _I_ don't want those specific individuals around. Others have made some effort to say "mea culpa" and ask to come back, and then gone off the rails the second someone gave them an answer they didn't like. _I_ don't want those specific individuals around.
But ultimately it's up to staff, and until such time as things are made public I won't speculate as to whether the decision was right. Anyone who doesn't know why they were banned can contact staff.
As for whether or not staff response was appropriate: throwing up the hacked clone didn't illicit this response. That speaks volumes of their restraint. The fact jcarter and others there thought escalating the issue by throwing up the staff wiki speaks volumes of their conduct. I am glad many participants of that forum finally spoke out against what they were doing. Unfortunately jcarter has indicated he'll throw up the wiki in the future because he doesn't care about the Armageddon community.
Quote from: John on February 23, 2016, 09:05:23 PM
Jeshi has had the decency to admit he has done things that violate the rules and are worthy of banning. So we can put to rest the idea Jeshin is an innocent bystander.
The problem with that board, and what undermines the good it HAS done, is the fact that the person running the board, along with several other participants, are all in favour of hosting information gained without the consent of staff, are more than happy to play and host in a stolen Arm clone and will continue to encourage people to get further information through any means necessary and throw them up online. Many people have walked away from that forum following their most recent behaviour. Others have not. Some are being banned as a result of their time on that forum.
Whether or not further bans are required will depend on what guidelines staff are using to ban people. Until such time those guidelines are known I see no value in speculating on whether someone deserved to be banned.
As it is, certain people of that forum have continuously shown contempt for staff and many of us players. _I_ don't want those specific individuals around. Others have made some effort to say "mea culpa" and ask to come back, and then gone off the rails the second someone gave them an answer they didn't like. _I_ don't want those specific individuals around.
But ultimately it's up to staff, and until such time as things are made public I won't speculate as to whether the decision was right. Anyone who doesn't know why they were banned can contact staff.
As for whether or not staff response was appropriate: throwing up the hacked clone didn't illicit this response. That speaks volumes of their restraint. The fact jcarter and others there thought escalating the issue by throwing up the staff wiki speaks volumes of their conduct. I am glad many participants of that forum finally spoke out against what they were doing. Unfortunately jcarter has indicated he'll throw up the wiki in the future because he doesn't care about the Armageddon community.
Jeshin manning up shouldn't be used against him imo. Him being banned is clearly related to the release of the wiki and not for another offense. He defended himself when Nergal accused him on the optional realities thread on TMC. Allegedly supporting the leak is why he was banned, not another offense.
My guess...is that it has nothing to do with the leak, since it's pretty clear that's not his deal. Think it has more to do with people using their access to the game to promote things in a negative light, and undermine the reasoning behind things based purely on their disagreement with it.
I have -no- idea if that's actually true, it's complete and total conjecture. I'm not really particularly worked up over it, nor am I upset by it. Back in the days of IRC we were treated a lot more sternly than any of this.
You have any evidence? Because what you put forth is bias and heresay.
He SAYS there was no other offense... just because he manned up on one thing does not in any way mean he isn't hiding another. Another that staff know, and have thumped him for.
Your bias is clear.
The problem with your point, John, is that
Quote from: John on February 23, 2016, 09:05:23 PM
Jeshi has had the decency to admit he has done things that violate the rules and are worthy of banning. So we can put to rest the idea Jeshin is an innocent bystander.
Quote from: John on February 23, 2016, 09:05:23 PMAs for whether or not staff response was appropriate: throwing up the hacked clone didn't illicit this response. That speaks volumes of their restraint. The fact jcarter and others there thought escalating the issue by throwing up the staff wiki speaks volumes of their conduct. I am glad many participants of that forum finally spoke out against what they were doing. Unfortunately jcarter has indicated he'll throw up the wiki in the future because he doesn't care about the Armageddon community.
there isn't a connection between these two. You're right that throwing up the hacked clone didn't illicit this response - but neither did his past offences. This is all just AFAIK, though.
Quote from: Malifaxis on February 23, 2016, 09:25:57 PMAnother that staff know, and have thumped him for.
I think this is exactly why Maziel is speaking up. No explanation was given and we're all in the dark.
Edit: I shouldn't speak for Maziel, sorry. But those are my reasons.
Quote from: Malifaxis on February 23, 2016, 09:25:57 PM
You have any evidence? Because what you put forth is bias and heresay.
He SAYS there was no other offense... just because he manned up on one thing does not in any way mean he isn't hiding another. Another that staff know, and have thumped him for.
Your bias is clear.
Evidence has been presented. Either it's a crazy coincidence, or he got banned for what Nergal accused him of the other day on the TMC. I'm working with knowns, not conspiracy theories.
As far as biases go, every negative interaction I have with you does make certain biases understandable. Don't tell me what I think or how I feel - you'd hate that.
Have you considered that staff don't post the reason people were banned to the playerbase is because they... Don't share player information with people not that player? Saying X was banned for Y isn't going to help anyone, and it could quite possibly piss more people off. If the player has a problem with the ban, he should probably put in a request or email the MUD asking for clarification.
Quote from: bcw81 on February 23, 2016, 09:48:26 PM
Have you considered that staff don't post the reason people were banned to the playerbase is because they... Don't share player information with people not that player? Saying X was banned for Y isn't going to help anyone, and it could quite possibly piss more people off. If the player has a problem with the ban, he should probably put in a request or email the MUD asking for clarification.
If one believes the rumors, the reason also wasn't shared with some of those who were banned. They can only guess. They weren't contacted by staff.
Quote from: Molten Heart on February 23, 2016, 09:51:32 PM
Quote from: bcw81 on February 23, 2016, 09:48:26 PM
Have you considered that staff don't post the reason people were banned to the playerbase is because they... Don't share player information with people not that player? Saying X was banned for Y isn't going to help anyone, and it could quite possibly piss more people off. If the player has a problem with the ban, he should probably put in a request or email the MUD asking for clarification.
If one believes the rumors, the reason also wasn't shared with some of those who were banned. They can only guess. They weren't contacted by staff.
While my doubts are out there on this one, it doesn't change the fact that if they have questions they should probably email the MUD or open a request if they're unsure. The last time someone on staff tried to explain why someone was banned (or whatever they were claiming at the time, I don't remember), they got up in arms over the staff member in question posting their account notes or emails or something to the forums. Why relive that experience now? Let the people who were banned ask what's up, it's none of our business.
Nope, I'm pretty sure you're working with conspiracy theories. The only knowns are that the staff wiki was hacked and some people got banned. Why is definitely not a known.
Here's my pet theory: staff is upset and decided to crack down on people who are the serious rule breakers. It doesn't matter when those rules were broken. You might say "convenient excuse" but I say "people who were previously given the benefit of the doubt but are now no longer considered worth the effort."
And I'm fine with that. Just because the rule breaking happened in the past doesn't mean you get a free pass for it. Heck, I don't mind if staff bans someone just for being a pain in the ass. I'd rather have them devote their attention to fun stuff than dealing with 2 or 3 squeaky wheels. I imagine staff is kind of like any other service industry, where you can end up devoting 30% of your energy to 1% of problematic people. At some point, the investment stops being worth it. Especially because emotional energy is limited and dealing with negativity is extremely demoralizing.
But the fact that several people who have admitted that they visit or post on the whiner board AREN'T banned tells me that there's something more than just an "us v them" thing going on. Repeating a belief over and over doesn't make it true.
Quote from: valeria on February 23, 2016, 10:01:27 PM
Nope, I'm pretty sure you're working with conspiracy theories. The only knowns are that the staff wiki was hacked and some people got banned. Why is definitely not a known.
Here's my pet theory: staff is upset and decided to crack down on people who are the serious rule breakers. It doesn't matter when those rules were broken. You might say "convenient excuse" but I say "people who were previously given the benefit of the doubt but are now no longer considered worth the effort."
And I'm fine with that. Just because the rule breaking happened in the past doesn't mean you get a free pass for it. Heck, I don't mind if staff bans someone just for being a pain in the ass. I'd rather have them devote their attention to fun stuff than dealing with 2 or 3 squeaky wheels. I imagine staff is kind of like any other service industry, where you can end up devoting 30% of your energy to 1% of problematic people. At some point, the investment stops being worth it. Especially because emotional energy is limited and dealing with negativity is extremely demoralizing.
But the fact that several people who have admitted that they visit or post on the whiner board AREN'T banned tells me that there's something more than just an "us v them" thing going on. Repeating a belief over and over doesn't make it true.
I'm using knowns to make logical predictions. The simplest solution is usually the correct one or whatever. In my mind, it's vastly more complicated for there to have been a simultaneous action between Jeshin and the staff in the background.
Edit: If mine is a conspiracy theory, I think it's fair to label yours as such too haha.
Quote from: valeria on February 23, 2016, 10:01:27 PM
Heck, I don't mind if staff bans someone just for being a pain in the ass.
This sums it up for me. Playing this game isn't some human right. If someone is more trouble than they're worth, that's good enough reason for me to show them the door. Being an ass should have consequences, just like it does in the "real world" where people cannot hide behind a computer screen.
I'll admit, I only feel this way because I firmly believe the current staff are -not- bullies who lord their virtual powers over other players just for their own personal amusement. They seem to be pretty damn fair from every interaction I've had with them, and every credible account I've heard. I won't say that -all- staff ever are that way, but there's an internal structure in place with checks and balances to make sure bad apples don't stick around.
Quote from: Maziel on February 23, 2016, 10:05:21 PM
Quote from: valeria on February 23, 2016, 10:01:27 PM
[Stuff.]
I'm using knowns to make logical predictions. The simplest solution is usually the correct one or whatever. In my mind, it's vastly more complicated for there to have been a simultaneous action between Jeshin and the staff in the background.
And I'm using the same data to make other, equally logical predictions. We don't agree. We don't have to. It would be boring and there would be very little discussion if everyone agreed on entering all the time.
Quote from: wizturbo on February 23, 2016, 10:07:26 PM
Quote from: valeria on February 23, 2016, 10:01:27 PM
Heck, I don't mind if staff bans someone just for being a pain in the ass.
This sums it up for me. Playing this game isn't some human right. If someone is more trouble than they're worth, that's good enough reason for me to show them the door. Being an ass should have consequences, just like it does in the "real world" where people cannot hide behind a computer screen.
Which brings us back to Jeshin not playing the game anymore and being a reasonable dude.
And us waiting on whether staff has something to bring to light saying otherwise.
Quote from: valeria on February 23, 2016, 10:11:55 PM
Quote from: Maziel on February 23, 2016, 10:05:21 PM
Quote from: valeria on February 23, 2016, 10:01:27 PM
[Stuff.]
I'm using knowns to make logical predictions. The simplest solution is usually the correct one or whatever. In my mind, it's vastly more complicated for there to have been a simultaneous action between Jeshin and the staff in the background.
And I'm using the same data to make other, equally logical predictions. We don't agree. We don't have to. It would be boring and there would be very little discussion if everyone agreed on entering all the time.
Hey now, if your predictions are equally logical and you deemed mine conspiracy theories.... Yours are too! :P
Well, mine are definitely theories ;)
This entire thread is remarkable. Remarkable in the fact that there is any debate what-so-ever. My God, the crap some people get off with is a shining example of just how forgiving and light-handed staff are 99.9% of the time, especially when put into consideration with the "Old days". You (general you) are NOT entitled to play this game, you are not entitled to have the knowledge on every single thing staff do or do not do (these bans included). Knee-jerk? What a joke. If people are banned, you can be damn sure it was deserved/called for.
Anyone active on the alt-GDB clearly does not have the best interest of this game in heart. Spare me the "some good things come from it" drivel. Please, pretty please, if you dislike the game so much, take a walk and leave it alone for those of us who enjoy it, and leave staff with the energy to maintain/build on it, without having to powder your asses and wipe your noses. If for even one second the people in that community condoned, participated in, or gleefully read the information from the hack, or any other secrets they had no business knowing, they should be banned.
There's a solid chance the closure of Arm was at least a passing thought to Staff, and I pray that it was only in passing. But by the very idea that could have happened because of these people, drop your defence of it, those involved actively or passively in it, or anything else to do with it.
Should staff have sensitive information in their staff files and junk anyhow? Whats the reasoning?
Quote from: Jihelu on February 23, 2016, 10:48:23 PM
Should staff have sensitive information in their staff files and junk anyhow? Whats the reasoning?
I don't understand why they shouldn't have anything they like on their website. The problem isn't what was there. The problem is that someone hacked it.
"Hi staff. Why is this Red Robe posted here, and what's his backstory?"
"Why the hell did this former staffer try to build this X room/area like this? Do you still have their contact info so I can ask and not beat my head into the wall?"
"How does that plot all tie together and make sense for the game world? - Well, this post from 02, 05, 09, 12 and 14 were all relevant"
Just a few examples I can think of. Why would someone think they have any right to hack it?
After reading the new update on ARMs open letter to the playerbase, let me paraphrase what I took out of it.
Stfu and play.
The more you focus on playing and growing this community, the stronger this community becomes. The less petty shit matters.
I mean, I feel like you could accomplish that with a simple email or phone number. Weren't adresses or something given out?
If not I mean that makes sense.
If so thats a bit eh.
I doubt you're going to go to someones house.
EDIT:
Doesn't really matter tho
Insigne: You say his banning had nothing to do with his past offences. Until such time as we know WHY he was banned, we cannot make any informed conclusions as to the validity of his banning. The fact he has taken no positive steps to ascertain why he was banned makes it difficult for me to discuss the issue with any degree of certainty.
Molten Heart: It is regrettable people have been banned without staff informing them as of why. But that does not mean these people are powerless to ask. The mud email account presumably still exists. Nor does it mean staff will not contact those people on their own initiative.
Maziel: I love that you are so passionate about this. I was the same when I first found the forum and heard the things described there. If what has been described there is the whole truth and not taken out of context, there has definitely been some poor behaviour. However the fact of the matter is, many of the posters there are not innocent.
You say I shouldn't use Jeshin manning up as a weapon to be used against him. I say nor should it be used to shield him. n response to one of the posts here inpsired me to start going through Jeshin's post history to find infractions that would be a good justification for him having been banned. Ultimately I gave it up after 1 or 2 pages because I'd certainly found them, but in doing so I felt like I was being petty.
The forum has areas setup on it SPECIFICALLY to encourage people to break the rules. People have contributed positively to that community which has a general tone of many of us players and many of the staff being scum and unworthy of playing or running Armageddon. We SHOULD NOT be resorting to name calling here on this forum (and I know that's not always enforced and I should report more posts when I do see it), a limitation they do not place upon themselves.
Ultimately some members of that forum have the sole motive of trying to poison the rest of the community. And the person who runs that forum does nothing to stop people from engaging in such behaviour and actively encourages people to partake in all sorts of other behaviour that would not be tolerated on this forum.
I love that you're sticking up for what you believe in. But I do not believe we have sufficient information to discuss Jeshin's banning in any meaningful way. Until either Jeshin or staff provide us with more information as to why he was banned I am not willing to say whether or not they were right to do so.
As far as I know Jeshin has taken no steps towards actually learning why he was banned and has only advertised the fact he was banned on a forum whose general tone is hostile towards many players and many staff.
Quote from: Lukoyin on February 23, 2016, 10:26:35 PM
This entire thread is remarkable. Remarkable in the fact that there is any debate what-so-ever. My God, the crap some people get off with is a shining example of just how forgiving and light-handed staff are 99.9% of the time, especially when put into consideration with the "Old days". You (general you) are NOT entitled to play this game, you are not entitled to have the knowledge on every single thing staff do or do not do (these bans included). Knee-jerk? What a joke. If people are banned, you can be damn sure it was deserved/called for.
Anyone active on the alt-GDB clearly does not have the best interest of this game in heart. Spare me the "some good things come from it" drivel. Please, pretty please, if you dislike the game so much, take a walk and leave it alone for those of us who enjoy it, and leave staff with the energy to maintain/build on it, without having to powder your asses and wipe your noses. If for even one second the people in that community condoned, participated in, or gleefully read the information from the hack, or any other secrets they had no business knowing, they should be banned.
I don't know about the old days you are referring to. I started playing when I was 16 and have been very on and off (mostly off) for about 7 years. I've done a lot of growing during that time, both as a player and an individual. The 'old days' I remember was Nyr closing a thread for being 'too silly'. There were a couple of people going back and forth in a cutesy manner. It wasn't causing anyone any harm, etc. I remember being shocked at seeing severe over moderation and being afraid to post anything. Those are the old days I remember, but others like you may have different memories as you've been around much longer in comparison.
And I love the game and also post on the alt-GDB from time to time. We're all weird nerdy people who would probably get along and have a good time if we could all afford to go to the meet ups.
I'm glad that things are changing and aren't like they used to be. I hope this pattern continues. If the old days that I remember come back, I suspect the alt-gdb will be reinvigorated and the playerbase will decline again.
And many posters have read the alt-gdb. Only a few have admitted to posting, but the arguments many people are using here - whether for the alt-gdb, against the alt-gdb, or specific incidents with the posters there - betray knowledge that came from there. Your justice may make you very lonely.
Quote from: John on February 23, 2016, 11:16:33 PM
Insigne: You say his banning had nothing to do with his past offences. Until such time as we know WHY he was banned, we cannot make any informed conclusions as to the validity of his banning. The fact he has taken no positive steps to ascertain why he was banned makes it difficult for me to discuss the issue with any degree of certainty.
You're right. That's my mistake. What I said was an assumption on my part and I shouldn't pass it off as anything else.
With that said, I think it's also common courtesy to give him the benefit of the doubt, rather than say outright that he deserved it or it was called for.
Because we don't know WHY.
Quote from: John on February 23, 2016, 11:16:33 PM
Molten Heart: It is regrettable people have been banned without staff informing them as of why. But that does not mean these people are powerless to ask. The mud email account presumably still exists. Nor does it mean staff will not contact those people on their own initiative.
I think communication is an important thing, especially in more extreme situations. If nothing else, to help people from over reacting and to avoid misunderstandings.
Quote from: Lukoyin on February 23, 2016, 10:26:35 PMAnyone active on the alt-GDB clearly does not have the best interest of this game in heart.
Should you really be using the word 'clearly' here?
Quote from: Jihelu on February 23, 2016, 10:48:23 PM
Should staff have sensitive information in their staff files and junk anyhow? Whats the reasoning?
Well, from what I've seen, that wiki was pretty much abandoned. Maybe they forgot about it or didn't think to remove personal information? According to the update, though, it seems they're taking steps to do just that!
I totally understand having emails and phone numbers but if it was to the point of "I live here and here and I work here" I just don't get it.
It isn't the staffs fault of course but posting that stuff on the internet is a bit ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
But that doesn't matter that much, what matters is that staff keep them selves safe.
Quote from: Molten Heart on February 23, 2016, 11:40:45 PM
Quote from: John on February 23, 2016, 11:16:33 PM
Molten Heart: It is regrettable people have been banned without staff informing them as of why. But that does not mean these people are powerless to ask. The mud email account presumably still exists. Nor does it mean staff will not contact those people on their own initiative.
I think communication is an important thing, especially in more extreme situations. If nothing else, to help people from over reacting.
I wholeheartedly agree. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't just see this place as a game. It's a community, too.
Quote from: Jihelu on February 23, 2016, 11:52:23 PM
I totally understand having emails and phone numbers but if it was to the point of "I live here and here and I work here" I just don't get it.
It isn't the staffs fault of course but posting that stuff on the internet is a bit ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
But that doesn't matter that much, what matters is that staff keep them selves safe.
Well, I've been in online communities where people shared their addresses willingly where 3k-4k other people could see it. And then there's the likes of Facebook. Maybe it is kinda eh, but it happens a lot.
Quote from: The Silence of the Erdlus on February 23, 2016, 07:17:47 PM
When that guy you like who's always logged in is gone
Right when the bans on the hackers are implemented
I was busy reading Dune, sorry. I'm back online now. 8)
Good letter staff. Thanks for the words.
I'll keep it brief, to match my opinion of the situation. I'm all about critiquing, constructive criticisms, and dialectics engaged in with some earnest intents from both parties. I am not for behaviors such as accessing information (especially personal) that is meant to seemingly harm alone.
Quote from: Kryos on February 24, 2016, 12:19:03 AM
I'll keep it brief, to match my opinion of the situation. I'm all about critiquing, constructive criticisms, and dialectics engaged in with some earnest intents from both parties. I am not for behaviors such as accessing information (especially personal) that is meant to seemingly harm alone.
This is pretty much how I feel too.
I definitely agree that it's common courtesy to assume someone has not done anything to warrant being banning absent information to the contrary. However Jeshin has provided that evidence so it makes his situation a bit more murky. I am still striving to give him the benefit of the doubt.
HOWEVER it is also common courtesy to assume that staff do not ban someone without a good reason. In the specific instance of Jeshin I have sought to offer both parties the common courtesy by refusing to comment on whether or not banning Jeshin was the right decision.
Unfortunately at this juncture I do not know whether participating in that forum is acceptable behaviour. It appears some participants have not been banned despite their presence on that forum. So therefore some participation may be acceptable. However given the tone and content of many of the posts there I do have little desire to participate at this time.
Until such time as staff do reveal why certain members of that forum were banned, I will simply go with the assumption that sharing of IC information through OOC channels is breaking the rules and may warrant either karma being docked or being banned and behave appropriately until such time as staff give me reason to believe otherwise.
As such, while I will not draw assumptions as to why any given person was banned, nor will I assume staff have acted in bad faith or have acted hypocritically. Ultimately we do not have enough information to draw any strong conclusions on, which I realise is dissatisfying and does make it difficult to gain closure.
If anyone is truly worried about why someone was banned, encourage the person who was banned to politely ask staff why they were banned. If that person has no desire to (or is unable to communicate with staff in a polite manner) then I suspect there is nothing we can do but move on. I certainly would not want staff to make public the reason I was banned if I were to be banned. I would want it to be private so that when I did return we could all move on. Jeshin has chosen to make his banning public, however I still believe it would be inappropriate for staff to make the reason public on Jeshin's behalf.
Quote from: John on February 24, 2016, 01:17:17 AM
If anyone is truly worried about why someone was banned, encourage the person who was banned to politely ask staff why they were banned. If that person has no desire to (or is unable to communicate with staff in a polite manner) then I suspect there is nothing we can do but move on. I certainly would not want staff to make public the reason I was banned if I were to be banned. I would want it to be private so that when I did return we could all move on. Jeshin has chosen to make his banning public, however I still believe it would be inappropriate for staff to make the reason public on Jeshin's behalf.
He chose to make it public because he was forced to.
I'm going to quote Jeshin here:
The issue is going to come in the from when I swapped from Joe or Ambroise or whatever my original handle was on here to Jeshin. I went ahead and broke the black box of the request tool. I actually did it because Kronibas was going off the handle about stuff and claiming he had request tool dialogue but never showed it. So I did mine to try and get him (and others with complaints) to show theirs. Like, lets not kid ourselves some people on this board who got in trouble with staff got in trouble with them legitimately. Nyr being rude and belittling only fanned the flames and turned what might have been a slap on the wrist into a battle royale.
But yeah, sharing the request tool used to be bannable and to my knowledge the staff have never changed that policy. Thus they can just be like, we didn't know he'd posted that information. When we examined Jcarter's forum we found it and he was banned. Whether it's true or not is another story. The biggest mistake the staff made was Nergal posting on TMC. There was no need for him to try and sandbag me on a 3rd party website not dedicated to Armageddon. That just forced me to have to provide information to people who bothered to check that I wasn't involved in the stuff he was accusing me of. There's a reason I've never posted about my issues with Arm on TMC prior to this incident.Me:
Oh yeah I'm totally aware that they can pick reasons as to why they banned you. It seems to be pretty obvious that the reason is related to the TMC stuff though, and not for past offenses.
Nergal should seek reconciliation for trying to sandbag you. If he's capable of doing that, players here will instantly give him respect for doing something Nyr couldn't even consider in passing.
Ideally, the shadowboards should die. Not because it's 'bad,' but because it exists due to something else being flawed. The death of this forum would mean that it's no longer necessary, which would mean players and staff have figured something better out.
Jeshin:
Well...
I mean prior to this whole kerfuffle this forum was pretty much on the way out. Like check this out armageddonmud.boards.net/user/193/recent?page=4 that's my posting history, should take you to page 4. Go to page, 5, then 6. Look at what I'm posting on and the timestamps. For awhile there really wasn't a lot going on. Some people had some random complaints, but staff was going in the right direction. As for Nergal apologizing, I don't think that will happen. Adhira already contacted RedRanger without being contacted prior and he was "inappropriately" banned in her words. I have not been contacted and I likely won't be, though I will continue to reach out to them as a matter of principal (privately of course).
That being said forums like this and like Optional Realities (which is a less extreme version of this and focused on text-based RPGs in general) will always exist as long as players feel/actually are over moderated by staff. For example Shadows of Isildur Laketown CLOSED their forums because they found their playerbase was to negative. HavenRPG has a very high moderation rate and when some people posted threads about POST MOAR the general response was why? It's toxic and moderation is uneven and heavy handed. It just seems like the majority of administrations don't want to deal with their communities in the most healthy of ways.
Regarding jcarter' forum dying: Jcarter has made it clear he has no interest in playing Armageddon and is quite content to fan the flames whenever the opportunity arises (see his part in the wiki being leaked).
Regarding Jeshin: You seem pretty intent on giving Jeshin the benefit of the doubt and ascribing certain motives to staff. I am unwilling to do the latter and so I do not see how any further discussion on this topic can be constructive absent further information. As such I am bowing out. Feel free to PM me if anything further does come to light or if you believe further discussion between us would lead to anything positive.
Quote from: John on February 24, 2016, 01:17:17 AM
I definitely agree that it's common courtesy to assume someone has not done anything to warrant being banning absent information to the contrary. However Jeshin has provided that evidence so it makes his situation a bit more murky. I am still striving to give him the benefit of the doubt.
HOWEVER it is also common courtesy to assume that staff do not ban someone without a good reason. In the specific instance of Jeshin I have sought to offer both parties the common courtesy by refusing to comment on whether or not banning Jeshin was the right decision.
Unfortunately at this juncture I do not know whether participating in that forum is acceptable behaviour. It appears some participants have not been banned despite their presence on that forum. So therefore some participation may be acceptable. However given the tone and content of many of the posts there I do have little desire to participate at this time.
Until such time as staff do reveal why certain members of that forum were banned, I will simply go with the assumption that sharing of IC information through OOC channels is breaking the rules and may warrant either karma being docked or being banned and behave appropriately until such time as staff give me reason to believe otherwise.
As such, while I will not draw assumptions as to why any given person was banned, nor will I assume staff have acted in bad faith or have acted hypocritically. Ultimately we do not have enough information to draw any strong conclusions on, which I realise is dissatisfying and does make it difficult to gain closure.
If anyone is truly worried about why someone was banned, encourage the person who was banned to politely ask staff why they were banned. If that person has no desire to (or is unable to communicate with staff in a polite manner) then I suspect there is nothing we can do but move on. I certainly would not want staff to make public the reason I was banned if I were to be banned. I would want it to be private so that when I did return we could all move on. Jeshin has chosen to make his banning public, however I still believe it would be inappropriate for staff to make the reason public on Jeshin's behalf.
I can respect that. I still stand by my opinion. Which is that unless the player in question is reached out to, something I feel is a common courtesy (heh, this phrase is being used a lot) when bans are being dealt out, this decision is more harm than good. Anyway, I could probably count on one hand everything I know about the guy. I'll chalk it up to differing opinions on how things should be handled and knock off. Good night (to me, anyway)!
Edit: Is there any way to hide a thread from yourself!? This is the second time I said I was done and I don't trust myself.
Quote from: John on February 24, 2016, 06:59:50 AM
Regarding jcarter' forum dying: Jcarter has made it clear he has no interest in playing Armageddon and is quite content to fan the flames whenever the opportunity arises (see his part in the wiki being leaked).
Regarding Jeshin: You seem pretty intent on giving Jeshin the benefit of the doubt and ascribing certain motives to staff. I am unwilling to do the latter and so I do not see how any further discussion on this topic can be constructive absent further information. As such I am bowing out. Feel free to PM me if anything further does come to light or if you believe further discussion between us would lead to anything positive.
I don't know what Jcarter's agenda is or isn't, but he doesn't get to decide.
"I mean prior to this whole kerfuffle this forum was pretty much on the way out;" let's get there again, or as close as we can. That said, I'll go ask Jcarter 'one-word answer, y/n, would it make you happy if your forum became inactive in a scenario where the MUD hasn't in any way died?' This post will be edited with the response.
There are a couple of things going on with Jeshin. We have the BAN and the TMC stuff. My theory is that they're related. I could be wrong about that. Maybe staff will respond and say that Jeshin was banned forever ago and he didn't know because he only tried logging in after the conflict with Nergal on TMC or something.
So I'll talk about the thing that all of the facts are present for, the conflict on TMC. Regardless of the BAN and what we do or not know about it, everything is present here.
Nergal:
You are using this thread to promote Optional Realities and I decided to add to it by showing others in this community what its site owner believes.
While it's nice that Jaunt won't be justifying illegal data breaches, if Jeshin cared to completely drop his support for releasing hacked information to start a conversation, then by all means, you could at least start a discussion here on valid terms. But as long as you support hacking MUDs then you have no moral leg to stand on to be a "community leader" worthy of hosting discussions for the betterment of the community.After careful examination of the evidence and the accusation, I came to the following conclusion: wtf wtf wtf.
Your conclusion may vary, but the accusation is clear and all relevant information is accessible. Jeshin admitted that there are reasons why he could be banned. He did, however, very much stand up for himself on TMC. My own opinion is that, if this gives anything a moral leg to stand on, it's something divisive. Scapegoating a person or people as a consequence of the illegal data breach will only stir the flames on the shadowboard. That's what this is really about, and how it's very much relevant to the open letter to the playerbase.
You're not a scapegoat if you're guilty of something worthy of the punishment.
Quote from: Synthesis on February 24, 2016, 12:27:17 PM
You're not a scapegoat if you're guilty of something worthy of the punishment.
It sounds like you're saying that my argument is that he's a scapegoat if he got banned.
That is not what I am saying.
Quote from: Maziel on February 24, 2016, 12:34:24 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on February 24, 2016, 12:27:17 PM
You're not a scapegoat if you're guilty of something worthy of the punishment.
It sounds like you're saying that my argument is that he's a scapegoat if he got banned.
That is not what I am saying.
Are you sure about that? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.
Quote from: Synthesis on February 24, 2016, 12:35:31 PM
Quote from: Maziel on February 24, 2016, 12:34:24 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on February 24, 2016, 12:27:17 PM
You're not a scapegoat if you're guilty of something worthy of the punishment.
It sounds like you're saying that my argument is that he's a scapegoat if he got banned.
That is not what I am saying.
Are you sure about that? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.
I'll break this down into two parts, broadly and specifically, because that's how the wording in question was used.
1) Broadly, anyone in any way associated with the alt-gdb or whatever you want to call it keeps being blamed for something that only one individual was responsible for, not everyone that didn't do that thing.
2) Jeshin belongs to the above class. He stands out because a staff member here specifically accused him of such.
Yes, being a scapegoat (I wrote spacegoat the first time, thanks for catching it chrome) is being blamed for something that you didn't do and/or weren't involved in. I did separate the TMC blaming from the BAN at the beginning of my post. Whether or not there is or isn't a relation is something I admitted was a theory, which is why I stated that the TMC incident was going to be discussed specifically.
Quote from: Synthesis on February 24, 2016, 12:35:31 PM
Quote from: Maziel on February 24, 2016, 12:34:24 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on February 24, 2016, 12:27:17 PM
You're not a scapegoat if you're guilty of something worthy of the punishment.
It sounds like you're saying that my argument is that he's a scapegoat if he got banned.
That is not what I am saying.
Are you sure about that? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.
It sounds like that for two reasons:
A: You are intelligent.
B: That is what is being said.
Jeshin and Staff had a conversation and both parties are apparently satisfied with the outcome, so let's just move on, guys?
Quote from: Malken on February 24, 2016, 12:49:02 PM
Jeshin and Staff had a conversation and both parties are apparently satisfied with the outcome, so let's just move on, guys?
Tek's Balls please, lets move on.
Quote from: Malken on February 24, 2016, 12:49:02 PM
Jeshin and Staff had a conversation and both parties are apparently satisfied with the outcome, so let's just move on, guys?
Jeshin said he's fine with being banned. I wouldn't speak his mind on the
spacegoating scapegoating though, either in his case specifically or in general.
Personally, I keep thinking 'I need to respond to this and then I'll just wait to see what comes of things.'
Quote from: Maziel on February 24, 2016, 12:51:59 PM
Quote from: Malken on February 24, 2016, 12:49:02 PM
Jeshin and Staff had a conversation and both parties are apparently satisfied with the outcome, so let's just move on, guys?
Jeshin said he's fine with being banned. I wouldn't speak his mind on the spacegoating scapegoating though, either in his case specifically or in general.
Personally, I keep thinking 'I need to respond to this and then I'll just wait to see what comes of things.'
Dude, at this point it sounds like you just want to argue for the sake of arguing... (which I'm not judging you for it, since this happens way too often on the GDB)
Jeshin - 'Hey, I have been contacted by a member of Armageddon staff. We have agreed to disagree but I am satisfied with the situation on my end. Whatever happens between the shadowboard and them is between them at this point.'
What else do you want out of this discussion? He says he is satisfied with the situation on his end, sounds like he is ready to move on as well.
Quote from: Maziel on February 24, 2016, 12:51:59 PM
Quote from: Malken on February 24, 2016, 12:49:02 PM
Jeshin and Staff had a conversation and both parties are apparently satisfied with the outcome, so let's just move on, guys?
Jeshin said he's fine with being banned. I wouldn't speak his mind on the spacegoating scapegoating though, either in his case specifically or in general.
Personally, I keep thinking 'I need to respond to this and then I'll just wait to see what comes of things.'
(http://i.imgur.com/N7D6OWU.jpg?1?fb)
Quote from: Malifaxis on February 24, 2016, 12:58:21 PM
Quote from: Maziel on February 24, 2016, 12:51:59 PM
Quote from: Malken on February 24, 2016, 12:49:02 PM
Jeshin and Staff had a conversation and both parties are apparently satisfied with the outcome, so let's just move on, guys?
Jeshin said he's fine with being banned. I wouldn't speak his mind on the spacegoating scapegoating though, either in his case specifically or in general.
Personally, I keep thinking 'I need to respond to this and then I'll just wait to see what comes of things.'
(http://i.imgur.com/N7D6OWU.jpg?1?fb)
When I first saw that my response was utter fear. I thought you had expanded your signature to the next level.
If you are done with the failed attempts to subtly flame me, then we can move on. If not, I can correct my signature with a photo of your maternal sponsor.
Quote from: Malifaxis on February 24, 2016, 01:15:16 PM
If you are done with the failed attempts to subtly flame me, then we can move on. If not, I can correct my signature with a photo of your maternal sponsor.
I honestly don't know what to tell you except that you're making me feel flamed.
both of you cut it out
Quote from: Malken on February 24, 2016, 12:57:02 PM
Quote from: Maziel on February 24, 2016, 12:51:59 PM
Quote from: Malken on February 24, 2016, 12:49:02 PM
Jeshin and Staff had a conversation and both parties are apparently satisfied with the outcome, so let's just move on, guys?
Jeshin said he's fine with being banned. I wouldn't speak his mind on the spacegoating scapegoating though, either in his case specifically or in general.
Personally, I keep thinking 'I need to respond to this and then I'll just wait to see what comes of things.'
Dude, at this point it sounds like you just want to argue for the sake of arguing... (which I'm not judging you for it, since this happens way too often on the GDB)
Jeshin - 'Hey, I have been contacted by a member of Armageddon staff. We have agreed to disagree but I am satisfied with the situation on my end. Whatever happens between the shadowboard and them is between them at this point.'
What else do you want out of this discussion? He says he is satisfied with the situation on his end, sounds like he is ready to move on as well.
I think I have to quote my grandma here.
With a smile, the leathery old women says, "I'm not arguing, I'm
discussing"
There may have been a wink and a period in there as well.
I think my most general goal would be raising awareness that alt-gdbers shouldn't all be blamed for the actions of one guy. Jeshin makes a very good catalyst for this as he was openly blamed for such on TMC.
Dunno if I changed anything, ya'all are stubborn and angry here. Kind of like some other board somewhere ;)
I'm pretty sure everything being said has been said before, and we're descending back toward flaming again. It's time to move on. Repeating "yes huh" "nuh uh" isn't getting anyone anywhere. Sometimes, you just need to accept that not everyone is going to disagree with everyone else about everything.
Yep.
And there was much rejoicing....
Thanks for the update to the letter. I'm really glad the game is not going to be closed.
Quote from: LauraMars on February 24, 2016, 05:45:53 PM
Thanks for the update to the letter. I'm really glad the game is not going to be closed.
... it wasn't that dire :(
Quote from: Case on February 24, 2016, 09:17:58 PM
Quote from: LauraMars on February 24, 2016, 05:45:53 PM
Thanks for the update to the letter. I'm really glad the game is not going to be closed.
... it wasn't that dire :(
The tone left room for that interpretation. Paranoid and extremely unlikely, but uncomfortable to think about all the same. Thank you Staff for the clarification.