Discussion: Open Letter to the Playerbase

[evilcabbage]

is there like, a 'suggest this thread be locked' button somewhere? because this is gonna get ugly otherwise.

please don't get flamey guys. take a deep breath, calm down.


i'm not saying jeshin was that. i said, largely.

i should say, 'most of the vocal people over there', because that would be a more true statement.

look, the point i'm trying to make, i get it. you want to defend him. i respect that. but he is no better, or worse, than anyone else over there. he has his own faults.

i respect what he tries to do for the rpi community, but it would look infinitely better if he did not post over there. at all. the place spawned out of hatred. hatred is all it stands for, at the end of the day. it doesn't matter what you think that place is. at the end of the day, it only exists as a spawning ground of hate.

[BadSkeelz]

You could report it.

I suggest everyone relax.

[evilcabbage]

at the end of the day, this thread here is supposed to be discussing the letter to the playerbase.

i would like it to remain unlocked at least long enough for staff to come together, discuss what they want to say, and then post it here so that we can react (civilly) accordingly.

[Maziel]

Point one:  You were speaking of him as a great benevolent golden pillar of awesome.  His character is questionable at best.  

Point two: By using it, you legitimize it.  You add credence to its existence.  That board provided nothing positive to the game, and actively tried to destroy plotlines and secrets.  If you can't grasp that, I do not know how else to explain it.

Point three:  I do understand.  I also understand that while an infection does serve to strengthen a body's immune system after the fact (ie: it does good) you first have to overcome the damage it wreaks (ie: bad) in order to gain that benefit.  Once we have cut off this putrescent testicle of failed humanity (the alt board) we will all be better able to enjoy this game without all the fucking spoilers and plit ruination that goes on over there.

Chip on my shoulder?  You have no fucking idea.

I am walking away from this for now, because my barrels are spinning up and if I don't take a breath, I am going to get very eloquent.

I definitely didn't say that. I don't think if it would matter if I did. My personal opinions of him are irrelevant compared to the lack of evidence saying that he should be banned.

That board had added positive things to the game. If you don't know them, I'll quote you with,   "If you can't grasp that, I do not know how else to explain it." I will say that everyone should know how skills increase though.

The board exists because of the shortcomings of this one. I support the good stuff here and not the shortcomings. I support the discussions over there which this one facilitated a need for, but not the ones that are fueled by unjustified prejudice - there are examples of behavior going beyond what is justified on both sides in the name of an unrelated wrong. Yeah, the 'hack' is probably much worse than anything any one person has done here, but it's still the act of one person.

[Malken]

What's left to be said, though?

This has mostly turned into who got banned/who is posting on jcarter.org and I don't really see the point of it all, since we don't know why they got banned and what the Staff is planning to do about it all.

[Maziel]

at the end of the day, this thread here is supposed to be discussing the letter to the playerbase.

i would like it to remain unlocked at least long enough for staff to come together, discuss what they want to say, and then post it here so that we can react (civilly) accordingly.

Jeshin is related to this as he was banned in retialation.

[wizturbo]

at the end of the day, this thread here is supposed to be discussing the letter to the playerbase.

i would like it to remain unlocked at least long enough for staff to come together, discuss what they want to say, and then post it here so that we can react (civilly) accordingly.

Jeshin is related to this as he was banned in retialation.

Then he can email the staff and work things out if he wants back in.  I'm sure if he's innocent of any serious offense, they'll be open to letting him play again...  /shrug

I'm all for being liberal with the bans, and working out the edge cases and false positives on a case by case basis if needed.

[evilcabbage]

exactly. gather the ones you know are vocal over there and (maybe for the right or wrong reasons) ban them, then go through and sort out who isn't as much of a problem, who can be trusted to come back.

people like redranger, even if they don't want to come back, should be allowed the opportunity. i loved rping with redranger.

[Malifaxis]

at the end of the day, this thread here is supposed to be discussing the letter to the playerbase.

i would like it to remain unlocked at least long enough for staff to come together, discuss what they want to say, and then post it here so that we can react (civilly) accordingly.

Jeshin is related to this as he was banned in retialation.

Then he can email the staff and work things out if he wants back in.  I'm sure if he's innocent of any serious offense, they'll be open to letting him play again...  /shrug

I'm all for being liberal with the bans, and working out the edge cases and false positives on a case by case basis if needed.

Thank you for saying this in a way that my trigger-shaped fingers couldn't type.

Wizturbo is the sane and calming voice of pure reason.  Respect his authoritah.

[Maziel]

at the end of the day, this thread here is supposed to be discussing the letter to the playerbase.

i would like it to remain unlocked at least long enough for staff to come together, discuss what they want to say, and then post it here so that we can react (civilly) accordingly.

Jeshin is related to this as he was banned in retialation.

Then he can email the staff and work things out if he wants back in.  I'm sure if he's innocent of any serious offense, they'll be open to letting him play again...  /shrug

I'm all for being liberal with the bans, and working out the edge cases and false positives on a case by case basis if needed.

Thank you for saying this in a way that my trigger-shaped fingers couldn't type.

Wizturbo is the sane and calming voice of pure reason.  Respect his authoritah.

The irony here is that the 'be liberal with the bans' is a vicious circle. Do not knowingly strike harder than you need to, as it gives cause to others to do the same.

[Malifaxis]

That is a philosophy I followed for years, and it put my life in the shitter.

Fuck not hitting back with every damn weapon you own once someone has struck at something you care for.

[evilcabbage]

being completely blunt and honest, participating in any of the discussions, even going over there, 'is' more or less grounds for a ban. we're making ourselves privy to information that should not be viewed in such an uncontrolled manner.

secrets are discussed. even if i didn't want to see them, they were there for the viewing.

i should be banned just for posting over there.

i'm not. i'm thankful. but it is an option (i would understandably be ruffled if i was) that hangs over me.

they have lashed out, as normal people do. they will calm down, as normal people do, and they will probably unban at least a couple people.

[BadSkeelz]

There aren't going to be any sweeping bans for being on one forum (regardless of our personal opinion of it). Just like Staff isn't going to shutdown the MUD over this. Enough with the hyperbole everyone, sheesh.

Really, the only people who know for certain why he was banned are Staff. The banned players themselves may not be fully cognizant of their guilt, if any. Certainly there's plenty of cognitive dissonance among the playerbase (or the internet in general, for that matter).

For me, it comes down to who do I trust more: individuals of dubious reputations banned for reasons unknown to me (beyond whatever they choose to say it is); or a group of players who have demonstrated far greater (if by no means perfect) levels of maturity and consideration for the good of the game than many of the rest of us.

The only thing I find upsetting about all of this (hack, bans, gibbering threads) is that other players are upset. Some I sympathize with more than others. I think everyone just needs to shrug and get on with their lives. Play the game, or don't. It'll be here if you want to come back.

[Maziel]

That is a philosophy I followed for years, and it put my life in the shitter.

Fuck not hitting back with every damn weapon you own once someone has struck at something you care for.

The anti-gandhi philosphy  

I can't speak to what has, hasn't, or will work for you in your own life just as you can't with mine. My own personal opinion is that this will only make things worse here. The staff have been working on facilitating different conversations more, being more understanding, and thinking more open in general. The result has been a huge player increase and people on the other forum admitting that it's becoming more about petty complaints now that there is becoming less of a need. In this case, if the past is indicative of the future, I think that the logical course is obvious.

[valeria]

I can't speak for the other mods, but the reason that I personally haven't locked this thread are because:

1) People have mostly stayed on the acceptable side of strong feelings without flaming (disagreement with someone else's position isn't flaming, even if it's repetitive and more strongly worded than the route I'd choose) and have mostly stayed on topic. If people weren't discussing it here, they'd be discussing it elsewhere. The reason it has its own thread is so that people who don't care or feel like the discussion has run its course aren't forced to read it.

and 2) Open discourse about things, including staff response and how/why, means that feelings are in the open and being discussed instead of festering to resentments in the dark.

But if things go back into personal attacks and name-calling, I'm locking it, and we can have a new discussion when staff expounds on the open letter later.

[Case]

Bans were dumb. Wrong move short term and long term. Perfect chance to help settle some of these stupid disputes over a stupid text game turned into more irritation and exclusion. The tough on crime attitudes are all posturing. You can support staff and disagree with them. They make emotional mistakes too. And it doesn't help a lot of people feel under attack.

[Malken]

The only thing I find upsetting about all of this (hack, bans, gibbering threads) is that other players are upset. Some I sympathize with more than others. I think everyone just needs to shrug and get on with their lives. Play the game, or don't. It'll be here if you want to come back.

Who would you say is really upset about this? I think most of those (including me) who are participating in this 'conversation' is because it's the hot topic of the moment, not so much because we're upset/really care that much about it.

It sucked, yeah, but I'm pretty sure we've all moved on.

[BadSkeelz]

People who were banned are probably upset. People who were friends with those people or otherwise sympathetic to them are upset. Staff are upset that their work and personal information was shared without their consent. People I respect being upset for any of the former.

I suppose that'd be ranking it from "Zero shits given" to "Some shits given" regarding the situation(s).

[Malken]

People who were banned are probably upset. People who were friends with those people or otherwise sympathetic to them are upset. Staff are upset that their work and personal information was shared without their consent. People I respect being upset for any of the former.

I suppose that'd be ranking it from "Zero shits given" to "Some shits given" regarding the situation(s).

While I understand the sentiment of anger and upsetting they might have gone through (especially Staff), I think that by now they have moved on to where they are looking at it with a more collected and methodical plan as to what to do from there. Those who were banned honestly don't seem that upset to me? Otherwise, fair enough, I'm not one of the affected people by it so I can't second guess their feelings.

It just seems like they have a plan, or at the very least working on one and the best we can do is to wait for it.

[Dan]

They absolutely got what they deserved. I have been gone a while but since returning I am sensing a culture of deviation that is allowing more 'OOC' talking amongst different players. I get this feeling for this thread and others lately, where people openly talk about stuff that wouldn't fly a few years ago. Mostly because it could ruin someone else's discovery in game. What happened people? This seems to have spun into full blown dissension and a place was created where these shadow boarders fostered someone who would do this. Get rid of all of them, I don't want to play with them.

[Dan]

Bans were dumb. Wrong move short term and long term. Perfect chance to help settle some of these stupid disputes over a stupid text game turned into more irritation and exclusion. The tough on crime attitudes are all posturing. You can support staff and disagree with them. They make emotional mistakes too. And it doesn't help a lot of people feel under attack.

They shouldn't feel under attack. They should feel like they 'cheated' and stepped outside of what is deemed allowable for this community. Good bye, don't let the door hit you.

[Maziel]

They absolutely got what they deserved. I have been gone a while but since returning I am sensing a culture of deviation that is allowing more 'OOC' talking amongst different players. I get this feeling for this thread and others lately, where people openly talk about stuff that wouldn't fly a few years ago. Mostly because it could ruin someone else's discovery in game. What happened people? This seems to have spun into full blown dissension and a place was created where these shadow boarders fostered someone who would do this. Get rid of all of them, I don't want to play with them.

I want to play with you.

I agree with Valeria. Talking about things in the open is better than festering in the dark.

[BadSkeelz]

The best way to play with people is to play the game. Not the forums.

[Maziel]

The best way to play with people is to play the game. Not the forums.

The best way to take part in a discussion is to take part in the discussion, not play the game.

I'm sorry if that comes off as being snarky, but that sentiment keeps being repeated and this is the most concise and incisive way I could find to relay my point.

[BadSkeelz]

It's a fair point, assuming you see any value in the discussion itself.