Discussion: Open Letter to the Playerbase

[Beethoven]

Because (IMO) someone had to do it. Discuss here, or don't, as you please.

[CodeMaster]

I don't care how trivial the information that was exposed is, or whether it was someone's photos, or a private website for a small online game, or somebody's personal email: my appreciation and respect for people's privacy has only grown in the last five years or so. I hope it has for a lot of you too.

IP bans aside, I hope somebody somewhere makes the choice to reassess things instead of excusing and defending this kind of social poison.

[Case]

Man. Bannings over this stuff? Wtf. I'm disappointed. There is one person to blame, not a group.

I'm not surprised about bannings. Here's why: despite all the progress that has been made with player/staff transparency, communication, and trust, when something happens to make people feel threatened, the gut reaction from anyone, no matter how rational, is anger and fear. So I'm not shocked at an anger reaction toward isolationism and purging undesirables from staff right now, any more than I would be from any other reactionary government. What did the hacker(s) think was going to happen? Getting hacked makes people feel very violated and upset.

It's naive to expect there would be no reaction from staff, that isn't how human nature works. When someone hurts someone else, the hurt person lashes out back. That's why game theory works the way it does.

People associated with the hackers are probably not going to get much empathy or traction right now, regardless of whether they were actually involved or not (there are problems with the concept of guilt by association, but reasonableness doesn't prevail when people are upset). Right now isn't the time to be a squeaky wheel. Things like ban amnesty and benefit of the doubt only happen when people are feeling good.

As for me, I'm going to go back to hoping we don't lose too many good staffers over this, since I care more about having a playable game than whether some of the fallout is that a few problem players are banned in the aftermath. I'm confident rationality will eventually prevail and we'll all get past this.

Some things look really reactive and petty regardless of intent or reasons. I'm disappointed. It'll only lead to alienation of those on the fence and further turn the tone negative.

[RogueGunslinger]

Man. Bannings over this stuff? Wtf. I'm disappointed. There is one person to blame, not a group.

I'm not surprised about bannings. Here's why: despite all the progress that has been made with player/staff transparency, communication, and trust, when something happens to make people feel threatened, the gut reaction from anyone, no matter how rational, is anger and fear. So I'm not shocked at an anger reaction toward isolationism and purging undesirables from staff right now, any more than I would be from any other reactionary government. What did the hacker(s) think was going to happen? Getting hacked makes people feel very violated and upset.

It's naive to expect there would be no reaction from staff, that isn't how human nature works. When someone hurts someone else, the hurt person lashes out back. That's why game theory works the way it does.

People associated with the hackers are probably not going to get much empathy or traction right now, regardless of whether they were actually involved or not (there are problems with the concept of guilt by association, but reasonableness doesn't prevail when people are upset). Right now isn't the time to be a squeaky wheel. Things like ban amnesty and benefit of the doubt only happen when people are feeling good.

As for me, I'm going to go back to hoping we don't lose too many good staffers over this, since I care more about having a playable game than whether some of the fallout is that a few problem players are banned in the aftermath. I'm confident rationality will eventually prevail and we'll all get past this.

Some things look really reactive and petty regardless of intent or reasons. I'm disappointed. It'll only lead to alienation of those on the fence and further turn the tone negative.

Quoting this here before the thread goes completely off the rails.

[valeria]

Man. Bannings over this stuff? Wtf. I'm disappointed. There is one person to blame, not a group.

I'm not surprised about bannings. Here's why: despite all the progress that has been made with player/staff transparency, communication, and trust, when something happens to make people feel threatened, the gut reaction from anyone, no matter how rational, is anger and fear. So I'm not shocked at an anger reaction toward isolationism and purging undesirables from staff right now, any more than I would be from any other reactionary government. What did the hacker(s) think was going to happen? Getting hacked makes people feel very violated and upset.

It's naive to expect there would be no reaction from staff, that isn't how human nature works. When someone hurts someone else, the hurt person lashes out back. That's why game theory works the way it does.

People associated with the hackers are probably not going to get much empathy or traction right now, regardless of whether they were actually involved or not (there are problems with the concept of guilt by association, but reasonableness doesn't prevail when people are upset). Right now isn't the time to be a squeaky wheel. Things like ban amnesty and benefit of the doubt only happen when people are feeling good.

As for me, I'm going to go back to hoping we don't lose too many good staffers over this, since I care more about having a playable game than whether some of the fallout is that a few problem players are banned in the aftermath. I'm confident rationality will eventually prevail and we'll all get past this.

Some things look really reactive and petty regardless of intent or reasons. I'm disappointed. It'll only lead to alienation of those on the fence and further turn the tone negative.

Well, yes, it looks reactive because it is reactive. The intent and reasons, though, I totally understand. I don't expect people to act with perfectly calm rationality under the circumstances. That would be the exception to human behavior instead of the rule.

I imagine anyone who got banned might want to revisit the issue after the emotional response dies down, if they're even interested in still playing.

[SuchDragonWow]

In all seriousness, if you don't see what was done is wrong, then you're backwards, and I don't see how discussing it serves anything but to muddy the waters.  In a strange twist of irony, this is no one's business but the parties that were violated.  As it goes, those parties are also part of a governing body that has the ability to mete out punishment.  Now, let's move on, huh?

[Malken]

I imagine anyone who got banned might want to revisit the issue after the emotional response dies down, if they're even interested in still playing.

Unfortunately, the people you refer to have often been on an emotional response for a year or longer. The fact that they just can't let go of it after all this time, or continues to play a game where they feel those in charge of it are out to get them, is simply WEIRD and UNHEALTHY.

I think it's healthy for these people, and the game itself, that they have been banned from it.

[Jingo]

I don't like the post hoc nature of the banning myself. It seems arbitrary to ban someone for behavior that was previously permitted but has suddenly become anathema. I think at least one warning should be given before total and complete bannage.

I think staff should not be quick to react in this case. Perhaps wait a week before implementing any grand changes that might be unnecessary. Staff knows I've done things while angry immediately after the fact that I regret.

[Large Hero]

Valeria's post contains a lot of truth.

Staff has been threatened, attacked (regardless of opinions on the magnitude of the attack), been made to feel vulnerable, unappreciated, and abused. The hack was wrong. Everyone reasonable knows this. It's only natural for staff to lash out in response. However, lashing out is still regrettable, because negativity will only lead to more negativity.

It's important to remember that the individual hacker is a single, disgruntled person who probably doesn't even play the game. The cheering and applause from certain members of jcarter's board is negative and saddening - but it's important to remember, again, that those cheering observers probably number fewer than 15 people in all.

It's also worth mentioning that several members of jcarter's community came out to say that the hack was wrong.

I sincerely hope for some outcomes:

1) Staff is assured in the knowledge that the vast majority of us support them and appreciate all they do for the game,

2) Staff moves past the negative actions of this individual, and the negative attitudes of a small group, without being prompted by these few into a large-scale negative response,

3) Staff sees that remaining positive, compassionate, empathetic, inclusive, and the other benevolent attributes that have markedly characterized the last year of Player-Staff interaction on Armageddon, continues - because that attitude is necessary for the continued health and growth of the game. And probably necessary for the sanity and enjoyment of staff themselves.

I hope things do not regress into hurt, defensiveness, suspicion and anger. That will only undo the happy era we've been entering and cause players (including those who have nothing to do with the negativity) to leave the game.

When a free, peaceful group is attacked, there's a strong temptation to become less free and less peaceful in order to punish the attackers. When this happens, the attackers win and the defending group loses.

[BadSkeelz]

Hacking a database and releasing private information is wrong. It's disrespectful to the players who staff this game for us, and it cheapens your own experience by peeking behind the curtain. I don't see any defense for it.

Anyone who's gotten banned recently for reasons other than database hacking, that's a different discussion. One that I personally think should be between them and staff, and not subject to vague references and speculation on the GDB.

[Malken]

Decimation (Latin: decimatio; decem = "ten") was a form of military discipline used by senior commanders in the Roman Army to punish units or large groups guilty of capital offences, such as mutiny or desertion. The word decimation is derived from Latin meaning "removal of a tenth". The procedure was a pragmatic, yet vicious, attempt to balance the need to punish serious offences with the practicalities of dealing with a large group of offenders.

The one was chosen and sacrificed for the sins of the others, now it's time to move on, my fellow Roman Armageddon patriots!

[Marauder Moe]

I don't have a lot of sympathy for those who post on the "shadow board". (I assume that's the sort of people that have been banned?)  The forum and those who run it and contribute clearly violate Rule 7.  It should be obvious that associating with them is done at your own risk.

[hopeandsorrow]

Hi!
I will admit some of my peers, hell some of what I would call friends, are "shadowboarders".  Though we rarely played together in game, we liked to chat about game as well as various other topics.  We ourselves were just a bunch of people doing whatever, a lot of it unrelated to Armageddon.

I'm disheartened actually, because one of said friends was banned.  He's the only one I know of.
  I'm not going to go into details because that would be poor form and considering my attachment, I wouldn't be very impartial.  Not like anyone would care what my opinion is anyways in regards to bans.  That's between that player and the staff.

Though I do see something troubling though entirely understandable, it's tribalism.  What was done was wrong, and was done wrongly and wasn't actually communicated to the community of jcarter.org clearly.  At first no one knew it was a 'hack' till some one else pointed out the offender fessed up to how he exploited it. (Or something to that effect, the temporary nature of the posts don't leave a lot of hard evidence of who, knew, what, when).

Yet damage was done.  Trenches were dug and tribalism for the terrible thing it is, prevailed.  While I watched GDB lump all of them into one group with out knowing all the facts, I watched the alt-community draw lines in the sand with out knowing all the facts.   No one was going to give up position because the "Us vs them" mentality has been apart of the said conflict since the inception of Jcarter's forums.  For whatever their reasons and there is many, those who choose to become full fledged members of the alt-community did so because the felt they had no place or no voice here.  In this community, on this forum.  Jcarter isn't just a group of griefers and twinks, it was also a community of misfits and outcasts, looking to role play and just role play.  Looking for a place to discuss the game they love with out feeling beating upon by a larger more insular community or feeling out right ignored.

They weren't born that way, they didn't start off there.  They started here, remember that, they were once 'us' and not just 'them'.  They still played the same game, played in the same clan, hell some of you, unknowing sent kudo's on characters from infamous 'shadow boarders'.

Heavy handed moderation was and is the most cited example (Although that appears to have been changed) the other is fear of negative account notes.  Why voice your dissent where it can effect your play? It's not like you can visit the GDB anonymously. Why risk karma or karma chances?  Jcarter's forum for a long time was a place where one could let out their frustrations or pick up on things that there was originally no avenues to figure out.  Whether it was code knowledge or 15 year old secrets, or a log that might never of seen the light of the original submission forums. 

So people were quick to take sides, even when all the facts be evident because human beings are kind of dumb and they do stuff like that.  By the time stuff was being deleted was the only time we had all the facts, yet in true bone head fashion some of the alt-community maintained position, to give ground, to give up would to let 'them' win.   In any other setting or impartial observation they would perhaps felt differently, but it was -their- community under attack.  So they applauded and cheered and did whatever tribes do during war time, whether they think the battle being fought or the tactics used are right or wrong.  No one questions the bombs being dropped till well after the war.

Like how many here expressed the same reactions, I looked at many posts they used 'THEM' and not "That guy".  The immediately blame the group, not the individual.  No respect for the nuance. Tribalism at it's finest, their guy did something so they're all guilty.  They say were all guilty so fuck'em all!

Like a thousand year old blood feud, it knows no logic or end now, just that blood will be paid with blood.  It's illogical on both parts but it how tribes of human react in these situations.  Us VS Them, always, no matter who tribe did what wrong.  They will always attribute the actions of an individual to the group.

Barka is pretty shitty or perhaps just stupid to not realize he was reversing what I felt was finally a form of reconciliation.  Yet it was done and any hope of burying that hatchet between both communities was destroyed with it.

Now, I will probably end my Arm career right here with this post, but I'm making peace with that.  Because what use is it to be or attempt to be apart of a community that I've always felt an outsider too? 

One of my friends quit playing because he didn't feel like he could be a part of Armageddon, another is banned, another is burned out, so here I am, looking between a game I like and few dudes I like to kick it with. 

Not entirely sure if it would be disloyal to continue playing while carefully making sure that any of my feelings or associations where kept secret.   That in some way, would it be dishonest to myself?  Or the community where we all adopted each other and shared a lot of triumphs, hard ships, and some terribly funny in jokes. 

Perhaps some of you feel similar about the GDB and main stream Arm community, that to be attacked as it happened, was wrong so utterly counter intuitive. I had hoped perhaps foolishly that Jcarter's little forum was to be nothing more then some code info + ironic shit posting.

But hope is a foolish emotion.

With that, though I do like the game and wish I would of learned/explored/done more. 
I do wish this incident never happened because it's created a terrible rift and caused lots of heart ache for people involved.

I'm left with either quietly being an outsider, afraid constantly being found out because I maintain friendships with banned/undesirable persons.  Or politely leaving for greener pasture where  I need not worry who is on my steam friends list/who's phone number is in my phone/or who I like talk to about gaming in general.

Tribalism won, that's all there is now.  Just US vs Them and what ever stone can be cast at who.  As much it pains me to see people hurt a game I love, it also hurts to see a game's community throw stones not only at my friends, but in weird ways indirectly at me.

 

[Case]

That's a bit overblown. Nobody's going to be, or should be, persecuted in some kind of stalinist purge for the crime of having a jcarter forums friend.

I've spoken to Adhira about this stuff a bit, and I think she's more interested in having a positive environment. She at least gets that people talk to each other or share info and stuff. What she (and staff) don't seem to like are the meltdowns and random spats being dragged everywhere for everybody to get outraged over. It's still just a game. Everybody's passionate. Staff say some dumb shit too and they're really only players with a veneer of authority slapped on. They don't wanna be player therapists or dealing with people that constantly hate everything or argue everything endlessly. Keeping up high spirits for creativity is hard.

Things have been really good lately, and all the overreactions from this are fucking it up. It sucks.

[RogueGunslinger]

That's a bit overblown. Nobody's going to be, or should be, persecuted in some kind of stalinist purge for the crime of having a jcarter forums friend.

I've spoken to Adhira about this stuff a bit, and I think she's more interested in having a positive environment. She at least gets that people talk to each other or share info and stuff. What she (and staff) don't seem to like are the meltdowns and random spats being dragged everywhere for everybody to get outraged over. It's still just a game. Everybody's passionate. Staff say some dumb shit too and they're really only players with a veneer of authority slapped on. They don't wanna be player therapists or dealing with people that constantly hate everything or argue everything endlessly. Keeping up high spirits for creativity is hard.

Things have been really good lately, and all the overreactions from this are fucking it up. It sucks.

Yup. People need to just move on, nothing has really changed. There is only a change here if you keep dwelling on it and escalate the drama. Being defeatist about tribalism winning and being unable to bury the hatchet between communities is like a self-fulfilling prophecy in that way.

There is not two separate communities. We're all just a bunch of people who play the game and have opinions. There's just as much in-fighting and arguing among one board as the other. The only difference is the medium which people are expressing themselves through. A moderated one, and an unmoderated one.

[Malken]

Heavy handed moderation was and is the most cited example (Although that appears to have been changed) the other is fear of negative account notes.  Why voice your dissent where it can effect your play? It's not like you can visit the GDB anonymously. Why risk karma or karma chances?  Jcarter's forum for a long time was a place where one could let out their frustrations or pick up on things that there was originally no avenues to figure out.  Whether it was code knowledge or 15 year old secrets, or a log that might never of seen the light of the original submission forums. 

I do it all the time here and I have yet to lose any karma over that. Heck, you just have to go to that 8+ pages about me being an Armageddon Staff to see that I've said some brutal stuff about Staff in my past childish anger over this internet game, under my GDB name Malken, and I haven't lost any karma over it either. What I haven't done, though, is being a constant little stalking prick via requests to the point that Staff would rather just stop dealing with me permanently than to continue giving me chances after chances.

You are perfectly fine with saying whatever you want here (to a certain degree, of course - civility will get you far in life) and to be friends with anyone you want on jcarter.org and I guarantee you that nothing will happen to you or your account, as long as you don't turn into an annoying prick that just refuses to let go of an issue that was decided forever ago, or that you continue to bitch non-stop about the game and its staff on every single venues you can find while continuing to play said game.

Patience has its limits.

[BadSkeelz]

Every dramatic OOC event relating to this game provokes a dramatic reaction from some player or another who decides now is the time to martyr themselves.

[Case]

Zero sum Melodrama, Contradiction and Belligerence

[Lukoyin]

Getting so outraged over a GAME that you need to attack it for years and go so far as to try and ruin it for everyone else who don't need their back-doors stitched up suggests a serious need for therapy.

Rage-quit/vent = Fine, normal. People need that sometimes.

Hacking? Dedicating years to shadow boards for the sake of continuing to be a whiny asshat? = Seek help.

[Beethoven]

To everyone: I imagine that trolling people is not going to help them feel less like outsiders. I'm not a moderator and can't control what you guys post, but c'mon, let's try to be respectful. If you think that some people are overreacting, I think the best response is to speak to them with empathy rather than making them feel even more like outsiders.

To hopeandsorrow: I understand the feeling of not being in the in-group, and it sucks. I do feel like my opinions aren't treated with the weight of some more popular people on the GDB, and that's lame. And it's lamer still when it bleeds over IC, although it's a hard thing to quantify. It could be that I'm totally wrong in this perception, but either way I know very well that it can feel that way.

I don't know what else to say to you but I'm sorry. I'm sorry you feel left out. I'm sorry your friend was banned. I'm sorry that things went down the way they did. I don't think this will lead to some kind of a shadowboards inquisition, but I understand the reason for your anxiety over that. I don't think hope is a foolish emotion. There is a great opportunity here for people to display their maturity in the face of something so immature and stupid, and from what I hear staff is interested in doing that, despite their anger and hurt. I know that your friend's ban may seem like evidence against this, but give it time before extrapolating some larger trend.

I hope you start to feel better about the situation and that you reconsider the decision to make this the end of your Arm career.

[Malken]

What does it mean to be in the in-group??

I think that hopeandsorrow's opinion is just as valid as everyone else and he's more than welcome here, I don't see how/why he should feel like an outsider and I'm not sure why he feels that way (if he does).

[Marauder Moe]

Speaking of wanting to move on... why is this thread sticky?

[BadSkeelz]

You are perfectly fine with saying whatever you want here (to a certain degree, of course - civility will get you far in life) and to be friends with anyone you want on jcarter.org and I guarantee you that nothing will happen to you or your account, as long as you don't turn into an annoying prick that just refuses to let go of an issue that was decided forever ago, or that you continue to bitch non-stop about the game and its staff on every single venues you can find while continuing to play said game.

Patience has its limits.

Agreed.

Armageddon is closer to a tabletop RPing group than an MMO. There are players, and there are Staff (GMs) who have volunteered their time to try and steer the game for us. We might not always agree, but the hope is everyone is trying to have fun. We try to reach that mutual point as adults.

Thinking of Arm this way is why I don't consider the leak (aside from personal information pertaining to staff members, which is seriously offending) that a big a deal: it's no different than a player reading the GM books or notes. It cheapens their experience, not mine.

If you have a player in your tabletop group who is constantly whining, backbiting, spewing vitriol or dragging the group in to a manufactured conflict of "us versus them," a point will come when they will no longer be invited back.

Rational adults will decide whether the game and the others playing it are actually fun for them and worth their time. This being the internet, there's a higher chance of getting irrational people who can't make that decision for themselves. Sometimes they get banned. My hope is that they can take some time to reflect on what happened and why it happened and learn from the experience. I suggest they remember it's just a game and to set down the cross they're bearing.

That's a personal discussion they need to have with themselves and, if they wish, with staff or other players privately. For the rest of us, these threads only serve to give the worst of the martyrdom trolls what they want: attention.

[Large Hero]

We talk about "being the change you want to see."

I'm going to "be the change" and believe that staff will have the wisdom to move past the tribalist temptations here. I'm going to keep playing, while believing that staff will continue in the positive direction we've been going in. I'm going to be sympathetic to staff's feelings of vulnerability in the wake of this, but I'm also going to move on and continue being my idea of a positive player and communicator with staff.

I think that's the best we can do. You only get positivity from being positive.


As far as the mental states of those posting on jcarter's forum: yes, it's obvious that it's unhealthy to obsess for years the way some posters there do. It's probably best for them to do other things with their time. I don't think there's anything to be gained from decrying them, though. Anyone with maturity knows that obsession is unhealthy. We should focus instead on what we can control: our reactions and the environment we create here.

[LauraMars]

Please keep this thread as civilized as possible.  If you feel like you're going to post something angry, just take half an hour and come back to it.

Remember that the first rule of the discussion board is to be cordial:

1. Please don't flame. While you can criticize the opinions of other people, do so with respect for them as a fellow human.

With such a sensitive topic I thought I'd just reiterate Beethoven's plea to be respectful.