Discussion: Open Letter to the Playerbase

[Insigne]

The problem with your point, John, is that

Jeshi has had the decency to admit he has done things that violate the rules and are worthy of banning. So we can put to rest the idea Jeshin is an innocent bystander.

As for whether or not staff response was appropriate: throwing up the hacked clone didn't illicit this response. That speaks volumes of their restraint. The fact jcarter and others there thought escalating the issue by throwing up the staff wiki speaks volumes of their conduct. I am glad many participants of that forum finally spoke out against what they were doing. Unfortunately jcarter has indicated he'll throw up the wiki in the future because he doesn't care about the Armageddon community.

there isn't a connection between these two. You're right that throwing up the hacked clone didn't illicit this response - but neither did his past offences. This is all just AFAIK, though.

[Insigne]

Another that staff know, and have thumped him for.

I think this is exactly why Maziel is speaking up. No explanation was given and we're all in the dark.

Edit: I shouldn't speak for Maziel, sorry. But those are my reasons.

[Maziel]

You have any evidence?  Because what you put forth is bias and heresay.

He SAYS there was no other offense... just because he manned up on one thing does not in any way mean he isn't hiding another.  Another that staff know, and have thumped him for.

Your bias is clear.

Evidence has been presented. Either it's a crazy coincidence, or he got banned for what Nergal accused him of the other day on the TMC. I'm working with knowns, not conspiracy theories.

As far as biases go, every negative interaction I have with you does make certain biases understandable. Don't tell me what I think or how I feel - you'd hate that.

[bcw81]

Have you considered that staff don't post the reason people were banned to the playerbase is because they... Don't share player information with people not that player? Saying X was banned for Y isn't going to help anyone, and it could quite possibly piss more people off. If the player has a problem with the ban, he should probably put in a request or email the MUD asking for clarification.

[Molten Heart]

Have you considered that staff don't post the reason people were banned to the playerbase is because they... Don't share player information with people not that player? Saying X was banned for Y isn't going to help anyone, and it could quite possibly piss more people off. If the player has a problem with the ban, he should probably put in a request or email the MUD asking for clarification.

If one believes the rumors, the reason also wasn't shared with some of those who were banned. They can only guess. They weren't contacted by staff.

[bcw81]

Have you considered that staff don't post the reason people were banned to the playerbase is because they... Don't share player information with people not that player? Saying X was banned for Y isn't going to help anyone, and it could quite possibly piss more people off. If the player has a problem with the ban, he should probably put in a request or email the MUD asking for clarification.

If one believes the rumors, the reason also wasn't shared with some of those who were banned. They can only guess. They weren't contacted by staff.

While my doubts are out there on this one, it doesn't change the fact that if they have questions they should probably email the MUD or open a request if they're unsure. The last time someone on staff tried to explain why someone was banned (or whatever they were claiming at the time, I don't remember), they got up in arms over the staff member in question posting their account notes or emails or something to the forums. Why relive that experience now? Let the people who were banned ask what's up, it's none of our business.

[valeria]

Nope, I'm pretty sure you're working with conspiracy theories. The only knowns are that the staff wiki was hacked and some people got banned. Why is definitely not a known.

Here's my pet theory: staff is upset and decided to crack down on people who are the serious rule breakers. It doesn't matter when those rules were broken. You might say "convenient excuse" but I say "people who were previously given the benefit of the doubt but are now no longer considered worth the effort."

And I'm fine with that. Just because the rule breaking happened in the past doesn't mean you get a free pass for it. Heck, I don't mind if staff bans someone just for being a pain in the ass. I'd rather have them devote their attention to fun stuff than dealing with 2 or 3 squeaky wheels. I imagine staff is kind of like any other service industry, where you can end up devoting 30% of your energy to 1% of problematic people. At some point, the investment stops being worth it. Especially because emotional energy is limited and dealing with negativity is extremely demoralizing.

But the fact that several people who have admitted that they visit or post on the whiner board AREN'T banned tells me that there's something more than just an "us v them" thing going on. Repeating a belief over and over doesn't make it true.

[Maziel]

Nope, I'm pretty sure you're working with conspiracy theories. The only knowns are that the staff wiki was hacked and some people got banned. Why is definitely not a known.

Here's my pet theory: staff is upset and decided to crack down on people who are the serious rule breakers. It doesn't matter when those rules were broken. You might say "convenient excuse" but I say "people who were previously given the benefit of the doubt but are now no longer considered worth the effort."

And I'm fine with that. Just because the rule breaking happened in the past doesn't mean you get a free pass for it. Heck, I don't mind if staff bans someone just for being a pain in the ass. I'd rather have them devote their attention to fun stuff than dealing with 2 or 3 squeaky wheels. I imagine staff is kind of like any other service industry, where you can end up devoting 30% of your energy to 1% of problematic people. At some point, the investment stops being worth it. Especially because emotional energy is limited and dealing with negativity is extremely demoralizing.

But the fact that several people who have admitted that they visit or post on the whiner board AREN'T banned tells me that there's something more than just an "us v them" thing going on. Repeating a belief over and over doesn't make it true.

I'm using knowns to make logical predictions. The simplest solution is usually the correct one or whatever. In my mind, it's vastly more complicated for there to have been a simultaneous action between Jeshin and the staff in the background.

Edit: If mine is a conspiracy theory, I think it's fair to label yours as such too haha.

[wizturbo]

Heck, I don't mind if staff bans someone just for being a pain in the ass.

This sums it up for me.  Playing this game isn't some human right.  If someone is more trouble than they're worth, that's good enough reason for me to show them the door.  Being an ass should have consequences, just like it does in the "real world" where people cannot hide behind a computer screen.

I'll admit, I only feel this way because I firmly believe the current staff are -not- bullies who lord their virtual powers over other players just for their own personal amusement.  They seem to be pretty damn fair from every interaction I've had with them, and every credible account I've heard.  I won't say that -all- staff ever are that way, but there's an internal structure in place with checks and balances to make sure bad apples don't stick around.

[valeria]

[Stuff.]

I'm using knowns to make logical predictions. The simplest solution is usually the correct one or whatever. In my mind, it's vastly more complicated for there to have been a simultaneous action between Jeshin and the staff in the background.

And I'm using the same data to make other, equally logical predictions. We don't agree. We don't have to. It would be boring and there would be very little discussion if everyone agreed on entering all the time.

[Maziel]

Heck, I don't mind if staff bans someone just for being a pain in the ass.

This sums it up for me.  Playing this game isn't some human right.  If someone is more trouble than they're worth, that's good enough reason for me to show them the door.  Being an ass should have consequences, just like it does in the "real world" where people cannot hide behind a computer screen.

Which brings us back to Jeshin not playing the game anymore and being a reasonable dude.

And us waiting on whether staff has something to bring to light saying otherwise.

[Maziel]

[Stuff.]

I'm using knowns to make logical predictions. The simplest solution is usually the correct one or whatever. In my mind, it's vastly more complicated for there to have been a simultaneous action between Jeshin and the staff in the background.

And I'm using the same data to make other, equally logical predictions. We don't agree. We don't have to. It would be boring and there would be very little discussion if everyone agreed on entering all the time.

Hey now, if your predictions are equally logical and you deemed mine conspiracy theories.... Yours are too!

[valeria]

Well, mine are definitely theories

[Lukoyin]

This entire thread is remarkable. Remarkable in the fact that there is any debate what-so-ever. My God, the crap some people get off with is a shining example of just how forgiving and light-handed staff are 99.9% of the time, especially when put into consideration with the "Old days". You (general you) are NOT entitled to play this game, you are not entitled to have the knowledge on every single thing staff do or do not do (these bans included). Knee-jerk? What a joke. If people are banned, you can be damn sure it was deserved/called for.

Anyone active on the alt-GDB clearly does not have the best interest of this game in heart. Spare me the "some good things come from it" drivel. Please, pretty please, if you dislike the game so much, take a walk and leave it alone for those of us who enjoy it, and leave staff with the energy to maintain/build on it, without having to powder your asses and wipe your noses. If for even one second the people in that community condoned, participated in, or gleefully read the information from the hack, or any other secrets they had no business knowing, they should be banned.

There's a solid chance the closure of Arm was at least a passing thought to Staff, and I pray that it was only in passing. But by the very idea that could have happened because of these people, drop your defence of it, those involved actively or passively in it, or anything else to do with it.

[Jihelu]

Should staff have sensitive information in their staff files and junk anyhow? Whats the reasoning?

[Barzalene]

Should staff have sensitive information in their staff files and junk anyhow? Whats the reasoning?

I don't understand why they shouldn't have anything they like on their website. The problem isn't what was there. The problem is that someone hacked it.

[Lukoyin]

"Hi staff. Why is this Red Robe posted here, and what's his backstory?"
"Why the hell did this former staffer try to build this X room/area like this? Do you still have their contact info so I can ask and not beat my head into the wall?"
"How does that plot all tie together and make sense for the game world? - Well, this post from 02, 05, 09, 12 and 14 were all relevant"

Just a few examples I can think of. Why would someone think they have any right to hack it?

[Majikal]

After reading the new update on ARMs open letter to the playerbase, let me paraphrase what I took out of it.

Stfu and play.


The more you focus on playing and growing this community, the stronger this community becomes. The less petty shit matters.

[Jihelu]

I mean, I feel like you could accomplish that with a simple email or phone number. Weren't adresses or something given out?
If not I mean that makes sense.
If so thats a bit eh.
I doubt you're going to go to someones house.

EDIT:
Doesn't really matter tho

[John]

Insigne: You say his banning had nothing to do with his past offences. Until such time as we know WHY he was banned, we cannot make any informed conclusions as to the validity of his banning. The fact he has taken no positive steps to ascertain why he was banned makes it difficult for me to discuss the issue with any degree of certainty.

Molten Heart: It is regrettable people have been banned without staff informing them as of why. But that does not mean these people are powerless to ask. The mud email account presumably still exists. Nor does it mean staff will not contact those people on their own initiative.

Maziel: I love that you are so passionate about this. I was the same when I first found the forum and heard the things described there. If what has been described there is the whole truth and not taken out of context, there has definitely been some poor behaviour. However the fact of the matter is, many of the posters there are not innocent.

You say I shouldn't use Jeshin manning up as a weapon to be used against him. I say nor should it be used to shield him. n response to one of the posts here inpsired me to start going through Jeshin's post history to find infractions that would be a good justification for him having been banned. Ultimately I gave it up after 1 or 2 pages because I'd certainly found them, but in doing so I felt like I was being petty.

The forum has areas setup on it SPECIFICALLY to encourage people to break the rules. People have contributed positively to that community which has a general tone of many of us players and many of the staff being scum and unworthy of playing or running Armageddon. We SHOULD NOT be resorting to name calling here on this forum (and I know that's not always enforced and I should report more posts when I do see it), a limitation they do not place upon themselves.

Ultimately some members of that forum have the sole motive of trying to poison the rest of the community. And the person who runs that forum does nothing to stop people from engaging in such behaviour and actively encourages people to partake in all sorts of other behaviour that would not be tolerated on this forum.

I love that you're sticking up for what you believe in. But I do not believe we have sufficient information to discuss Jeshin's banning in any meaningful way. Until either Jeshin or staff provide us with more information as to why he was banned I am not willing to say whether or not they were right to do so.

As far as I know Jeshin has taken no steps towards actually learning why he was banned and has only advertised the fact he was banned on a forum whose general tone is hostile towards many players and many staff.

[Maziel]

This entire thread is remarkable. Remarkable in the fact that there is any debate what-so-ever. My God, the crap some people get off with is a shining example of just how forgiving and light-handed staff are 99.9% of the time, especially when put into consideration with the "Old days". You (general you) are NOT entitled to play this game, you are not entitled to have the knowledge on every single thing staff do or do not do (these bans included). Knee-jerk? What a joke. If people are banned, you can be damn sure it was deserved/called for.

Anyone active on the alt-GDB clearly does not have the best interest of this game in heart. Spare me the "some good things come from it" drivel. Please, pretty please, if you dislike the game so much, take a walk and leave it alone for those of us who enjoy it, and leave staff with the energy to maintain/build on it, without having to powder your asses and wipe your noses. If for even one second the people in that community condoned, participated in, or gleefully read the information from the hack, or any other secrets they had no business knowing, they should be banned.

I don't know about the old days you are referring to. I started playing when I was 16 and have been very on and off (mostly off) for about 7 years. I've done a lot of growing during that time, both as a player and an individual. The 'old days' I remember was Nyr closing a thread for being 'too silly'. There were a couple of people going back and forth in a cutesy manner. It wasn't causing anyone any harm, etc. I remember being shocked at seeing severe over moderation and being afraid to post anything. Those are the old days I remember, but others like you may have different memories as you've been around much longer in comparison.

And I love the game and also post on the alt-GDB from time to time. We're all weird nerdy people who would probably get along and have a good time if we could all afford to go to the meet ups.

I'm glad that things are changing and aren't like they used to be. I hope this pattern continues. If the old days that I remember come back, I suspect the alt-gdb will be reinvigorated and the playerbase will decline again.

And many posters have read the alt-gdb. Only a few have admitted to posting, but the arguments many people are using here - whether for the alt-gdb, against the alt-gdb, or specific incidents with the posters there - betray knowledge that came from there. Your justice may make you very lonely.

[Insigne]

Insigne: You say his banning had nothing to do with his past offences. Until such time as we know WHY he was banned, we cannot make any informed conclusions as to the validity of his banning. The fact he has taken no positive steps to ascertain why he was banned makes it difficult for me to discuss the issue with any degree of certainty.

You're right. That's my mistake. What I said was an assumption on my part and I shouldn't pass it off as anything else.

With that said, I think it's also common courtesy to give him the benefit of the doubt, rather than say outright that he deserved it or it was called for. Because we don't know WHY.

[Molten Heart]

Molten Heart: It is regrettable people have been banned without staff informing them as of why. But that does not mean these people are powerless to ask. The mud email account presumably still exists. Nor does it mean staff will not contact those people on their own initiative.

I think communication is an important thing, especially in more extreme situations. If nothing else, to help people from over reacting and to avoid misunderstandings.

[Insigne]

Anyone active on the alt-GDB clearly does not have the best interest of this game in heart.

Should you really be using the word 'clearly' here?

Should staff have sensitive information in their staff files and junk anyhow? Whats the reasoning?

Well, from what I've seen, that wiki was pretty much abandoned. Maybe they forgot about it or didn't think to remove personal information? According to the update, though, it seems they're taking steps to do just that!

[Jihelu]

I totally understand having emails and phone numbers but if it was to the point of "I live here and here and I work here" I just don't get it.
It isn't the staffs fault of course but posting that stuff on the internet is a bit ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
But that doesn't matter that much, what matters is that staff keep them selves safe.