Discussion: Open Letter to the Playerbase

[Riev]

The best way to play with people is to play the game. Not the forums.

While I've never brought myself to be able to do it, a good number of players I've respected over the years ONLY read Staff Announcements and Clan Boards. Thats not to say doing so made them better players, or even made them more trustworthy...

But even the game's own forums can be a HUGE downer. 20 people out of the 300 or so that play this game are very vocal about things. Just remember there are 200 other people a week who SUPPOSEDLY play this game as well, who don't give a shit about shadowboards, or whether you now know how to better train a warrior's set of skills. They just want to log in and have fun.

Do you guys still have fun in this game? If you logged in, right now, would you have fun?

[evilcabbage]

yup.

[Maziel]

It's a fair point, assuming you see any value in the discussion itself.

I do  

I don't take part in discussions I don't see value in  

Edit: speaking of which, I agree with Malken on there not being much left to say until we hear from staff

[Vague]

Do you guys still have fun in this game? If you logged in, right now, would you have fun?

I log in, I have a good time.  I don't even need other players around to have a good time, they are just jelly on good bread, when it's on.
I look at the GDB, I don't have a good time.  I get annoyed and exhausted and remember why I don't like reading the GDB.  I usually keep all the tabs closed except for staff announcements and clan specific.  I -survive- that.
It's when I send in character reports, or even use the request tool that I feel that ugh of being disenfranchised.  It just feels impersonal, you can't read the tone of intent in the replies and, to be honest, it feels most of the time, to me, like anything I've written is simply glossed over and the point was missed, because there has to be a backlog of other requests sent in.  It feels, to me, like my enjoyable hobby is immersed with support tickets and tps reports.

When I play, it's always fun.  It's everything else that really just destroys the desire I have to try.  At this point, I am just against trying to use the request tool anymore to open lines of communication because it feels like being left alone is less frustrating and what the staff actually wants out of me.  As I said, this it how it feels, to me.

[wizturbo]

When I play, it's always fun.  It's everything else that really just destroys the desire I have to try.  At this point, I am just against trying to use the request tool anymore to open lines of communication because it feels like being left alone is less frustrating and what the staff actually wants out of me.  As I said, this it how it feels, to me.

I actually really like this point.  I hate the request tool.  I understand why it exists, but I hate it.   I'd much prefer talking to staff in-game in some private OOC room, or through a simple chat messaging tool that logs your conversations.  In the service industry, the overwhelming majority of people prefer live contact channels over delayed responses like emails.  There's a reason for that, live support makes you feel like the other person is engaged with you, you can understand context and tone more easily (even through text) and you don't have those long wait times that make you feel forgotten.  I recognize that live chat with staff might be challenging due to time zone issues, but I think having staff "office hours" similar to a university professor could be a great solution for that.  Show up at their "office hours" and talk to them live in an OOC format.

[Riev]

Some staff are certainly better communicators than others, but I DO feel the struggle of the bureaucracy inherent in the system itself. My wonder is, with an announcement that says "Hey. So. People outside the community did something pretty heinous. We're going to say in very uncertain terms that the possibility of the game going on hiatus could occur" would be DEVASTATING to someone who doesn't play Forum Battlez.

It's knee-jerk, people should know that by now. The chances of the game going down because some staff are angry would seem low, to me. But the idea that an official drafted statement stated "We are considering our options" and "nothing about this is worth risk of exposure" really feels like a horrible downer. Its very official sounding, and I'd be surprised if NOBODY on staff considered quitting over the breach, but the idea of "considering our options" is, to most people, a "we're thinking about just suspending the game over this".

To me, as a player who hasn't rocked the boat, and has just enjoyed this pastime... that felt both heavyhanded and like part of me would be taken away, without my consent, because of someone else's actions.

[wizturbo]

The irony here is that the 'be liberal with the bans' is a vicious circle. Do not knowingly strike harder than you need to, as it gives cause to others to do the same.

I feel the opposite is true.  I believe that lax enforcement on rules that have been in place for 20 years was the beginning of the vicious cycle.  If staff banned everyone who posted on those boards the moment they were discovered years ago, people would realize there are consequences for breaking these rules, and maybe fewer people would be willing to openly break them?  Maybe there wouldn't have been an audience for this wiki leak in that case, or the offending party might not have been fired up to do this at all if they didn't feel empowered by their "shadow community".   I'm not saying the staff need to ban every single person who has ever posted there, but going after prominent posters there seems more than justified.  I also don't see any reason to make the bans permanent in most cases, and from what I gather, very few bans have ever been permanent.

The GDB and the game itself is not some heavily censored place where people can't speak their mind, I criticize and argue with staff and players alike on these boards constantly without any "retaliation".  I disagree with people more often than I agree.  But I disagree here, following the very simple rules that were created for very good reasons.  If people feel they need a place to "freely" disagree, they're full of it.  They're not looking for freedom of speech, they're looking for a place to freely break the rules, or freely flame or harass others without consequence...  I don't see any reason the staff should tolerate that.  

I know there are some long term players who've admitted to posting there, and I don't wish them any ill.  Hell, some of them I really, really like...  But that doesn't mean what they did wasn't the wrong thing to do.  Even if a lot of good people did the wrong thing in this case.

[Is Friday]

Should I be banned wizturbo?

[wizturbo]

Should I be banned wizturbo?

Sorry, I was editing my post to address exactly this kind of scenario.  Here are the parts that apply to your question:

I'm not saying the staff need to ban every single person who has ever posted there, but going after prominent posters there seems more than justified.  I also don't see any reason to make the bans permanent in most cases, and from what I gather, very few bans have ever been permanent.

I know there are some long term players who've admitted to posting there, and I don't wish them any ill.  Hell, some of them I really, really like...  But that doesn't mean what they did wasn't the wrong thing to do.  Even if a lot of good people did the wrong thing in this case.

[Is Friday]

Okay. To my knowledge I haven't broken any rules while posting there. I didn't even play the 1999 version of Arm. (Not for lack of interest, but for lack of free time.)

Are you suggesting a blanket ban should be instituted for everyone associated with the board? There are Helpers and some ex-staff over there.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

When that guy you like who's always logged in is gone

Right when the bans on the hackers are implemented

[wizturbo]

No, as I said:

"I'm not saying the staff need to ban every single person who has ever posted there, but going after prominent posters there seems more than justified.  I also don't see any reason to make the bans permanent in most cases, and from what I gather, very few bans have ever been permanent."

If people posted there and did not share any IC information and were behaving like generally civil people, I don't see any reason to punish them for it, even if it was technically against the rules.  This is especially  true because of the lax enforcement for so many years.  

Think of it like a freeway with a posted speed limit of 50 MPH, but there's never been any enforcement of that speed limit.  Would it be reasonable to suddenly install a ticketing camera on that freeway and fine every single person who drives on it without warning?  No, of course not.  Would it be reasonable to have the cops pull over the guys who were going 120 MPH on that freeway?  Yes.  

Since posting on a forums isn't something you can numerical quantify, I can understand where some staff might perceive a poster over there as "going 120 mph", when in reality they were really only "going 80 mph".  In those circumstances, the person who was "only going 80 mph" could always email the staff and say "Hey, sorry I was speeding, but I was only going 80 MPH and the punishment you gave me was as if I was going 120 mph, any chance you could reconsider?"  I'm guessing that staff will be pretty forgiving in many those cases, because ultimately their goal isn't to kick players out of the game, but to keep them in-game so they can kill each other with bone swords.

[BadSkeelz]

Personally, I'd rather staff be responding to reports, animating NPCs, and playing with us than monitoring other forums, figuring out which wankers with a persecution complex need banning. They'll generally volunteer themselves here or in game fine enough on their own.

[manonfire]

Okay, so.. since Red Ranger and Jenshin were banned after the wiki was released but weren't actually involved in the release, are we to infer that part of the staff reaction to the wiki getting published is to ban players who post on the alt-GDB?

[BadSkeelz]

*shrug*

[wizturbo]

That's what I'm inferring.  Doesn't mean I'm right, maybe those guys got banned for something unrelated?  I dunno.

[manonfire]

So, the timing of it is just a hilarious coincidence?

Naw.

[wizturbo]

The timing being a coincidence isn't what I'm referring to in this case.  I'm saying maybe they're being banned for a reason other than merely posting on the alt-GDB, and the timing of that ban coincides with the wiki breach.  My guess is they're being banned for what they said or how they said it, not where they said it.  Otherwise we'd be seeing a lot more accounts banned.   Again though, I really have no idea, I'm just making some assumptions based off very limited information.

[Dar]

Why does that whole 'hu-man, fellow hu-mans' statement in ask the staff question make me think of Ferengi instead of ... whatever is it they're trying to portray?

[Yam]

This is all rather silly.

[Jihelu]

We should all just get along and have fun.
Or something.

[John]

Jeshi has had the decency to admit he has done things that violate the rules and are worthy of banning. So we can put to rest the idea Jeshin is an innocent bystander.

The problem with that board, and what undermines the good it HAS done, is the fact that the person running the board, along with several other participants, are all in favour of hosting information gained without the consent of staff, are more than happy to play and host in a stolen Arm clone and will continue to encourage people to get further information through any means necessary and throw them up online. Many people have walked away from that forum following their most recent behaviour. Others have not. Some are being banned as a result of their time on that forum.

Whether or not further bans are required will depend on what guidelines staff are using to ban people. Until such time those guidelines are known I see no value in speculating on whether someone deserved to be banned.

As it is, certain people of that forum have continuously shown contempt for staff and many of us players. _I_ don't want those specific individuals around. Others have made some effort to say "mea culpa" and ask to come back, and then gone off the rails the second someone gave them an answer they didn't like. _I_ don't want those specific individuals around.

But ultimately it's up to staff, and until such time as things are made public I won't speculate as to whether the decision was right. Anyone who doesn't know why they were banned can contact staff.

As for whether or not staff response was appropriate: throwing up the hacked clone didn't illicit this response. That speaks volumes of their restraint. The fact jcarter and others there thought escalating the issue by throwing up the staff wiki speaks volumes of their conduct. I am glad many participants of that forum finally spoke out against what they were doing. Unfortunately jcarter has indicated he'll throw up the wiki in the future because he doesn't care about the Armageddon community.

[Maziel]

Jeshi has had the decency to admit he has done things that violate the rules and are worthy of banning. So we can put to rest the idea Jeshin is an innocent bystander.

The problem with that board, and what undermines the good it HAS done, is the fact that the person running the board, along with several other participants, are all in favour of hosting information gained without the consent of staff, are more than happy to play and host in a stolen Arm clone and will continue to encourage people to get further information through any means necessary and throw them up online. Many people have walked away from that forum following their most recent behaviour. Others have not. Some are being banned as a result of their time on that forum.

Whether or not further bans are required will depend on what guidelines staff are using to ban people. Until such time those guidelines are known I see no value in speculating on whether someone deserved to be banned.

As it is, certain people of that forum have continuously shown contempt for staff and many of us players. _I_ don't want those specific individuals around. Others have made some effort to say "mea culpa" and ask to come back, and then gone off the rails the second someone gave them an answer they didn't like. _I_ don't want those specific individuals around.

But ultimately it's up to staff, and until such time as things are made public I won't speculate as to whether the decision was right. Anyone who doesn't know why they were banned can contact staff.

As for whether or not staff response was appropriate: throwing up the hacked clone didn't illicit this response. That speaks volumes of their restraint. The fact jcarter and others there thought escalating the issue by throwing up the staff wiki speaks volumes of their conduct. I am glad many participants of that forum finally spoke out against what they were doing. Unfortunately jcarter has indicated he'll throw up the wiki in the future because he doesn't care about the Armageddon community.

Jeshin manning up shouldn't be used against him imo. Him being banned is clearly related to the release of the wiki and not for another offense. He defended himself when Nergal accused him on the optional realities thread on TMC. Allegedly supporting the leak is why he was banned, not another offense.

[Armaddict]

My guess...is that it has nothing to do with the leak, since it's pretty clear that's not his deal.  Think it has more to do with people using their access to the game to promote things in a negative light, and undermine the reasoning behind things based purely on their disagreement with it.

I have -no- idea if that's actually true, it's complete and total conjecture.  I'm not really particularly worked up over it, nor am I upset by it.  Back in the days of IRC we were treated a lot more sternly than any of this.

[Malifaxis]

You have any evidence?  Because what you put forth is bias and heresay.

He SAYS there was no other offense... just because he manned up on one thing does not in any way mean he isn't hiding another.  Another that staff know, and have thumped him for.

Your bias is clear.