Discussion: Open Letter to the Playerbase

[Refugee]

Things have been awesome lately!  Staff's been super, the pbase is more relaxed because the relationship is better.  

[BadSkeelz]

I mostly only post when I'm at work and can't play.

The GDB, the alt-GDB, the TMC forums.... they're just not good sources of what playing the game is actually like. There can be interesting conversations to be had everywhere. But its all apocrypha compared to the one source of truth: actual gameplay.

People who subconsciously want to be victims will take actions to make themselves victims. I find it an irritating and distracting mindset, especially when it causes more empathy-possessing members of the community (whose gameplay I really respect) to start feeling discouraged about the hobby we happen to share.

[BadSkeelz]

I guess what I'm trying to say, Maziel (and everyone else), is this: stop worrying about other people and play the game. Have fun with us. Please.

[Coat of Arms]

Wasn't this the act of one guy? And he apparently took the website down when, judging by their thread, a number of them told him it wasn't cool? Surely it's a bit excessive to hold their entire community responsible.

[Insigne]

I understand wizturbo and Armaddict's points, and the frustration staff must be going through, but I don't think 'banning them all' or 'giving some people the boot' is the right move; particularly banning those who played little to no part in the actual breach, and without so much as an explanation.

Idk, I'll await the announcement from staff with bated breath.

[Maziel]

I guess what I'm trying to say, Maziel, is this: stop worry about other people and play the game. Have fun with us. Please.

That's fair.

It's harder for me to enjoy the game when I see a line being crossed like Jeshin being banned is all, so I've got to bring it up yo.

[Armaddict]

...THAT is the moment you see a line being crossed?

[Maziel]

...THAT is the moment you see a line being crossed?

Yup. You hear all kinds of stories where it's hard to form a firm opinion. What is and isn't acceptable is related to how solidly I'm able to stand by my resolution. In this case, I'm quite certain of Jeshin's character and innocence.

Basically, it may be hard to judge a castle for attacking another, even if the ramifications are much worse. It's pretty clear to see someone beating a defenseless woman as being wrong though.

[solera]

I have the highest regard for ReRanger as a player and a poster, so that is very disappointing, if true.
I don't think I will be logging into the shadow board again, I feel I haven't the stomach for it anymore. It, I mean the rage and shit, and the hack. In no way though, do I think of the posters there as Them, just players and flawed people like me. (Well apart from JC  )

[wizturbo]

Surely it's a bit excessive to hold their entire community responsible.

When the "community" does nothing but upset people, spoil fun things, and talk shit on staff I don't see any reason to tolerate it.  I'm not saying EVERYONE should be banned, but the ones who've been extremely negative don't need to be here.  I would hope staff reconsider edge cases once things calm down, but I don't see being liberal with the ban hammer as an over reaction.

If a player in one of my table top games behaved as bad as some of the people in that 'community' I would kick them out of my game, and never talk to them again.  I don't see why staff can't have that option too.

[solera]

It is an exageration to say it does " nothing but".

[Armaddict]

I see the moment of line-crossing being the moment an entire group openly and proudly declared that they do not agree with certain rules of a game, and decided not to follow them.  Then worked to undermine those rules.  Then likened it to some sort of crusade against tyranny in a place where everyone else was pretty happy with things (something they brushed aside as 'fear of loss of karma', and etc).

That line was crossed a long time ago.  But the new staff was pretty...accepting, and tolerant, and it bit them in the ass.  So again.  Delayed treatment, after months of public and personal-level communication about how discouraged it was to participate there.  To act surprised about actions taken now is to willingly admit to having your head up...

[wizturbo]

Okay, fair.  It is an exaggeration.  

Let's just say the negatives seem to greatly outweigh the positives.  That might not have been the case in the past, maybe a little free speech was necessary at one point in Armageddon's history, I cannot comment as I haven't been present nonstop for the last 20 years...  But things are awesome right now.  We don't need anymore negativity.  Be constructive, or fuck off until you cool off.

[Maziel]

That line was crossed a long time ago.  But the new staff was pretty...accepting, and tolerant, and it bit them in the ass.  So again.  Delayed treatment, after months of public and personal-level communication about how discouraged it was to participate there.  To act surprised about actions taken now is to willingly admit to having your head up...

Bit them in the ass? No. I'm proud to say that the staff have been making some great positive changes lately, and yes some of them were the result of posts elsewhere. If you read them, you would see players talking about how it's becoming harder to complain about shit due to the positive changes.

[Malken]

I feel like poor Jeshin was caught in a cross-fire and now that he's dead, they're just sprinkling cocaine on his corpse to explain the situation (but again, I must be missing pieces of the puzzle that I'm hoping will be revealed this week)

[Jingo]

I wish there was as much death and corruption erupting around me while playing the game. As the alt-boarders say is occurring.

[Insigne]

That line was crossed a long time ago.

Sure, the line was crossed a long time ago, but the point is that neither of those members were banned for those reasons (actually, I should give it the benefit of the doubt until I've seen the announcement). If that was the case, shouldn't it have happened a long time ago? What makes it seem like a sudden, unreasonable action to me is that it happened now, when they hardly instigated anything nor did they actively support it.

[Insigne]

We don't need anymore negativity.  Be constructive, or fuck off until you cool off.

Excuse me if I misunderstand. Are you referring to the members who were banned? From what I've seen, those members seemed plenty constructive to me and were, for the most part, relatively level-headed in their postings. They didn't appear to do anything befitting of a ban that wouldn't have earned them such long before the info leak.

[Mordiggian]

General reminder to please refrain from attacking other players (whether or not they're posting in this thread) unless you're doing it with a bone sword somewhere in Allanak.

[hyzhenhok]

Assuming it's true that these guys who were banned don't really play anymore, I have to say I don't really understand what the symbolic bans accomplish except stirring the pot.

If we accept Armaddict's thesis that these guys are all terrorists, a lot of this strikes me as giving them exactly what they want.

[BadSkeelz]

Yeah, hostility and suspicion (especially to unfamiliar posters) is kinda exactly what the trolls want. They're not worth any more than a shrug and an eyeroll, in my opinion.

Not knowing either of these two other bans or the circumstances behind them... I can't say I give a shit. But everyone has friends, and we all have our biases and prejudices. It's never fun seeing someone punished.

[wizturbo]

Very much like a traditional table top RPG, playing the game is not some basic human right.  If a player in one of my table top games came to a few sessions and I logged on to some forum somewhere and read them bad mouthing or criticizing my game in a way that I didn't like, I wouldn't invite them back.   I don't see why the staff can't have that option too.  

Now because this is a game with hundreds of players instead of a seven person table top adventure, there obviously needs to be more process behind kicking someone out of the club, but I've seen nothing to make me think that due process isn't already in place.  Also, this is hardly some draconian message board where people aren't free to share their thoughts.  I'm critical of staff decisions all the time, but I really make an effort to be constructive about it, and treat them well regardless of whether we agree or disagree.  You know, just like how I would treat someone I was talking to face to face, instead of anonymously behind a computer screen.

[Armaddict]

...I didn't say anything about them being terrorists.  Hyperbole much?

I said that the community built there routinely engages in behavior that is explicitly against the rules outlined by the game, and that there have been several statements made both publically, here, and personally, to those who posted complaints there...that such an outlet was not 'okay'.  To expect anything other than a reaction, particularly when things start going out of hand, is trying a little -too- hard for the empathy side of things.

I mean...to keep it in the field of roleplaying, imagine being a DM and setting up a framework for how you wanted your game to play out.  Not a predetermined plot, but a consistent manner in how things are done.  It does well, it's achieving what it's supposed to.  But someone decides they don't like it.  So they stop following that framework.  The DM goes with it for how long before it's 'okay' for them to say 'I don't want to deal with that anymore.'?

This isn't sudden and out of the blue, is the point.  I don't see any reason for it to be permanent, nor do I see any reason for it to not happen, as it would be treated with any other repetitive infraction of the openly displayed rules.

[Malifaxis]

Yeah, hostility and suspicion (especially to unfamiliar posters) is kinda exactly what the trolls want. They're not worth any more than a shrug and an eyeroll, in my opinion.

The above is exactly why I haven't posted in this thread.

Good riddance.

This isn't sudden and out of the blue, is the point.  I don't see any reason for it to be permanent, nor do I see any reason for it to not happen, as it would be treated with any other repetitive infraction of the openly displayed rules.

There is a bit of a difference between repeatedly flaming (example: Mansa smells like old shoes) and making a concerted effort to personally attack the feeling of well being of members of this community (example: recent doings).  Fuck not being permanent.  These guys are assholes, hang them out to dry.

[Maziel]

If we accept Armaddict's thesis that these guys are all terrorists, a lot of this strikes me as giving them exactly what they want.

I'm a tesseract merchant. I stole an apple from Walmart. All tesseract merchants, and anyone who has interactions with them, is a filthy thief. I kind of feel like that's the logic being applied here. The reasoning given by Nergal on TMC seems to be that Jeshin is supportive of a community that committed a criminal act: 1) He's interested in talking about it in a level-headed way that I'd like to see more of both here, there, and everywhere, 2) Everyone is being grouped together because one person did a thing and posted it there? He knew that talking about how you were talking about killing yourself on Facebook is something you might read there - anything goes. Nearly nothing being filtered is a poor way to tie an agenda to others using the same medium. You can go there and tell everyone they're a fucking dick that should go fuck themselves, their mother, and to go crawl under a rock to raise their new family without being banned.