Discussion: Open Letter to the Playerbase

[Insigne]

Molten Heart: It is regrettable people have been banned without staff informing them as of why. But that does not mean these people are powerless to ask. The mud email account presumably still exists. Nor does it mean staff will not contact those people on their own initiative.

I think communication is an important thing, especially in more extreme situations. If nothing else, to help people from over reacting.

I wholeheartedly agree. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't just see this place as a game. It's a community, too.

I totally understand having emails and phone numbers but if it was to the point of "I live here and here and I work here" I just don't get it.
It isn't the staffs fault of course but posting that stuff on the internet is a bit ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
But that doesn't matter that much, what matters is that staff keep them selves safe.

Well, I've been in online communities where people shared their addresses willingly where 3k-4k other people could see it. And then there's the likes of Facebook. Maybe it is kinda eh, but it happens a lot.

[JackGibbons]

When that guy you like who's always logged in is gone

Right when the bans on the hackers are implemented

I was busy reading Dune, sorry. I'm back online now. 

[Delirium]

Good letter staff. Thanks for the words.

[Kryos]

I'll keep it brief, to match my opinion of the situation.  I'm all about critiquing, constructive criticisms, and dialectics engaged in with some earnest intents from both parties.  I am not for behaviors such as accessing information (especially personal) that is meant to seemingly harm alone.  

[Refugee]

I'll keep it brief, to match my opinion of the situation.  I'm all about critiquing, constructive criticisms, and dialectics engaged in with some earnest intents from both parties.  I am not for behaviors such as accessing information (especially personal) that is meant to seemingly harm alone.  

This is pretty much how I feel too.

[John]

I definitely agree that it's common courtesy to assume someone has not done anything to warrant being banning absent information to the contrary. However Jeshin has provided that evidence so it makes his situation a bit more murky. I am still striving to give him the benefit of the doubt.

HOWEVER it is also common courtesy to assume that staff do not ban someone without a good reason. In the specific instance of Jeshin I have sought to offer both parties the common courtesy by refusing to comment on whether or not banning Jeshin was the right decision.

Unfortunately at this juncture I do not know whether participating in that forum is acceptable behaviour. It appears some participants have not been banned despite their presence on that forum. So therefore some participation may be acceptable. However given the tone and content of many of the posts there I do have little desire to participate at this time.

Until such time as staff do reveal why certain members of that forum were banned, I will simply go with the assumption that sharing of IC information through OOC channels is breaking the rules and may warrant either karma being docked or being banned and behave appropriately until such time as staff give me reason to believe otherwise.

As such, while I will not draw assumptions as to why any given person was banned, nor will I assume staff have acted in bad faith or have acted hypocritically. Ultimately we do not have enough information to draw any strong conclusions on, which I realise is dissatisfying and does make it difficult to gain closure.

If anyone is truly worried about why someone was banned, encourage the person who was banned to politely ask staff why they were banned. If that person has no desire to (or is unable to communicate with staff in a polite manner) then I suspect there is nothing we can do but move on. I certainly would not want staff to make public the reason I was banned if I were to be banned. I would want it to be private so that when I did return we could all move on. Jeshin has chosen to make his banning public, however I still believe it would be inappropriate for staff to make the reason public on Jeshin's behalf.

[Maziel]

If anyone is truly worried about why someone was banned, encourage the person who was banned to politely ask staff why they were banned. If that person has no desire to (or is unable to communicate with staff in a polite manner) then I suspect there is nothing we can do but move on. I certainly would not want staff to make public the reason I was banned if I were to be banned. I would want it to be private so that when I did return we could all move on. Jeshin has chosen to make his banning public, however I still believe it would be inappropriate for staff to make the reason public on Jeshin's behalf.

He chose to make it public because he was forced to.

I'm going to quote Jeshin here:

The issue is going to come in the from when I swapped from Joe or Ambroise or whatever my original handle was on here to Jeshin. I went ahead and broke the black box of the request tool. I actually did it because Kronibas was going off the handle about stuff and claiming he had request tool dialogue but never showed it. So I did mine to try and get him (and others with complaints) to show theirs. Like, lets not kid ourselves some people on this board who got in trouble with staff got in trouble with them legitimately. Nyr being rude and belittling only fanned the flames and turned what might have been a slap on the wrist into a battle royale.

But yeah, sharing the request tool used to be bannable and to my knowledge the staff have never changed that policy. Thus they can just be like, we didn't know he'd posted that information. When we examined Jcarter's forum we found it and he was banned. Whether it's true or not is another story. The biggest mistake the staff made was Nergal posting on TMC. There was no need for him to try and sandbag me on a 3rd party website not dedicated to Armageddon. That just forced me to have to provide information to people who bothered to check that I wasn't involved in the stuff he was accusing me of. There's a reason I've never posted about my issues with Arm on TMC prior to this incident.

Me:

Oh yeah I'm totally aware that they can pick reasons as to why they banned you. It seems to be pretty obvious that the reason is related to the TMC stuff though, and not for past offenses.

Nergal should seek reconciliation for trying to sandbag you. If he's capable of doing that, players here will instantly give him respect for doing something Nyr couldn't even consider in passing.

Ideally, the shadowboards should die. Not because it's 'bad,' but because it exists due to something else being flawed. The death of this forum would mean that it's no longer necessary, which would mean players and staff have figured something better out.

Jeshin:

Well...

I mean prior to this whole kerfuffle this forum was pretty much on the way out. Like check this out armageddonmud.boards.net/user/193/recent?page=4 that's my posting history, should take you to page 4. Go to page, 5, then 6. Look at what I'm posting on and the timestamps. For awhile there really wasn't a lot going on. Some people had some random complaints, but staff was going in the right direction. As for Nergal apologizing, I don't think that will happen. Adhira already contacted RedRanger without being contacted prior and he was "inappropriately" banned in her words. I have not been contacted and I likely won't be, though I will continue to reach out to them as a matter of principal (privately of course).

That being said forums like this and like Optional Realities (which is a less extreme version of this and focused on text-based RPGs in general) will always exist as long as players feel/actually are over moderated by staff. For example Shadows of Isildur Laketown CLOSED their forums because they found their playerbase was to negative. HavenRPG has a very high moderation rate and when some people posted threads about POST MOAR the general response was why? It's toxic and moderation is uneven and heavy handed. It just seems like the majority of administrations don't want to deal with their communities in the most healthy of ways.

[John]

Regarding jcarter' forum dying: Jcarter has made it clear he has no interest in playing Armageddon and is quite content to fan the flames whenever the opportunity arises (see his part in the wiki being leaked).

Regarding Jeshin: You seem pretty intent on giving Jeshin the benefit of the doubt and ascribing certain motives to staff. I am unwilling to do the latter and so I do not see how any further discussion on this topic can be constructive absent further information. As such I am bowing out. Feel free to PM me if anything further does come to light or if you believe further discussion between us would lead to anything positive.

[Insigne]

I definitely agree that it's common courtesy to assume someone has not done anything to warrant being banning absent information to the contrary. However Jeshin has provided that evidence so it makes his situation a bit more murky. I am still striving to give him the benefit of the doubt.

HOWEVER it is also common courtesy to assume that staff do not ban someone without a good reason. In the specific instance of Jeshin I have sought to offer both parties the common courtesy by refusing to comment on whether or not banning Jeshin was the right decision.

Unfortunately at this juncture I do not know whether participating in that forum is acceptable behaviour. It appears some participants have not been banned despite their presence on that forum. So therefore some participation may be acceptable. However given the tone and content of many of the posts there I do have little desire to participate at this time.

Until such time as staff do reveal why certain members of that forum were banned, I will simply go with the assumption that sharing of IC information through OOC channels is breaking the rules and may warrant either karma being docked or being banned and behave appropriately until such time as staff give me reason to believe otherwise.

As such, while I will not draw assumptions as to why any given person was banned, nor will I assume staff have acted in bad faith or have acted hypocritically. Ultimately we do not have enough information to draw any strong conclusions on, which I realise is dissatisfying and does make it difficult to gain closure.

If anyone is truly worried about why someone was banned, encourage the person who was banned to politely ask staff why they were banned. If that person has no desire to (or is unable to communicate with staff in a polite manner) then I suspect there is nothing we can do but move on. I certainly would not want staff to make public the reason I was banned if I were to be banned. I would want it to be private so that when I did return we could all move on. Jeshin has chosen to make his banning public, however I still believe it would be inappropriate for staff to make the reason public on Jeshin's behalf.

I can respect that. I still stand by my opinion. Which is that unless the player in question is reached out to,  something I feel is a common courtesy (heh, this phrase is being used a lot) when bans are being dealt out, this decision is more harm than good. Anyway, I could probably count on one hand everything I know about the guy. I'll chalk it up to differing opinions on how things should be handled and knock off. Good night (to me, anyway)!

Edit: Is there any way to hide a thread from yourself!? This is the second time I said I was done and I don't trust myself.

[Maziel]

Regarding jcarter' forum dying: Jcarter has made it clear he has no interest in playing Armageddon and is quite content to fan the flames whenever the opportunity arises (see his part in the wiki being leaked).

Regarding Jeshin: You seem pretty intent on giving Jeshin the benefit of the doubt and ascribing certain motives to staff. I am unwilling to do the latter and so I do not see how any further discussion on this topic can be constructive absent further information. As such I am bowing out. Feel free to PM me if anything further does come to light or if you believe further discussion between us would lead to anything positive.

I don't know what Jcarter's agenda is or isn't, but he doesn't get to decide. "I mean prior to this whole kerfuffle this forum was pretty much on the way out;" let's get there again, or as close as we can. That said, I'll go ask Jcarter 'one-word answer, y/n, would it make you happy if your forum became inactive in a scenario where the MUD hasn't in any way died?' This post will be edited with the response.

There are a couple of things going on with Jeshin. We have the BAN and the TMC stuff. My theory is that they're related. I could be wrong about that. Maybe staff will respond and say that Jeshin was banned forever ago and he didn't know because he only tried logging in after the conflict with Nergal on TMC or something.

So I'll talk about the thing that all of the facts are present for, the conflict on TMC. Regardless of the BAN and what we do or not know about it, everything is present here.

Nergal:

You are using this thread to promote Optional Realities and I decided to add to it by showing others in this community what its site owner believes.

While it's nice that Jaunt won't be justifying illegal data breaches, if Jeshin cared to completely drop his support for releasing hacked information to start a conversation, then by all means, you could at least start a discussion here on valid terms. But as long as you support hacking MUDs then you have no moral leg to stand on to be a "community leader" worthy of hosting discussions for the betterment of the community.

After careful examination of the evidence and the accusation, I came to the following conclusion: wtf wtf wtf.

Your conclusion may vary, but the accusation is clear and all relevant information is accessible. Jeshin admitted that there are reasons why he could be banned. He did, however, very much stand up for himself on TMC. My own opinion is that, if this gives anything a moral leg to stand on, it's something divisive. Scapegoating a person or people as a consequence of the illegal data breach will only stir the flames on the shadowboard. That's what this is really about, and how it's very much relevant to the open letter to the playerbase.

[Synthesis]

You're not a scapegoat if you're guilty of something worthy of the punishment.

[Maziel]

You're not a scapegoat if you're guilty of something worthy of the punishment.

It sounds like you're saying that my argument is that he's a scapegoat if he got banned.

That is not what I am saying.

[Synthesis]

You're not a scapegoat if you're guilty of something worthy of the punishment.

It sounds like you're saying that my argument is that he's a scapegoat if he got banned.

That is not what I am saying.

Are you sure about that? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

[Maziel]

You're not a scapegoat if you're guilty of something worthy of the punishment.

It sounds like you're saying that my argument is that he's a scapegoat if he got banned.

That is not what I am saying.

Are you sure about that? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

I'll break this down into two parts, broadly and specifically, because that's how the wording in question was used.

1) Broadly, anyone in any way associated with the alt-gdb or whatever you want to call it keeps being blamed for something that only one individual was responsible for, not everyone that didn't do that thing.

2) Jeshin belongs to the above class. He stands out because a staff member here specifically accused him of such.

Yes, being a scapegoat (I wrote spacegoat the first time, thanks for catching it chrome) is being blamed for something that you didn't do and/or weren't involved in. I did separate the TMC blaming from the BAN at the beginning of my post. Whether or not there is or isn't a relation is something I admitted was a theory, which is why I stated that the TMC incident was going to be discussed specifically.

[Malifaxis]

You're not a scapegoat if you're guilty of something worthy of the punishment.

It sounds like you're saying that my argument is that he's a scapegoat if he got banned.

That is not what I am saying.

Are you sure about that? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

It sounds like that for two reasons:

A: You are intelligent.
B: That is what is being said.

[Malken]

Jeshin and Staff had a conversation and both parties are apparently satisfied with the outcome, so let's just move on, guys?

[Malifaxis]

Jeshin and Staff had a conversation and both parties are apparently satisfied with the outcome, so let's just move on, guys?

Tek's Balls please, lets move on.

[Maziel]

Jeshin and Staff had a conversation and both parties are apparently satisfied with the outcome, so let's just move on, guys?

Jeshin said he's fine with being banned. I wouldn't speak his mind on the spacegoating scapegoating though, either in his case specifically or in general.

Personally, I keep thinking 'I need to respond to this and then I'll just wait to see what comes of things.'

[Malken]

Jeshin and Staff had a conversation and both parties are apparently satisfied with the outcome, so let's just move on, guys?

Jeshin said he's fine with being banned. I wouldn't speak his mind on the spacegoating scapegoating though, either in his case specifically or in general.

Personally, I keep thinking 'I need to respond to this and then I'll just wait to see what comes of things.'

Dude, at this point it sounds like you just want to argue for the sake of arguing... (which I'm not judging you for it, since this happens way too often on the GDB)

Jeshin - 'Hey, I have been contacted by a member of Armageddon staff. We have agreed to disagree but I am satisfied with the situation on my end. Whatever happens between the shadowboard and them is between them at this point.'

What else do you want out of this discussion? He says he is satisfied with the situation on his end, sounds like he is ready to move on as well.

[Malifaxis]

Jeshin and Staff had a conversation and both parties are apparently satisfied with the outcome, so let's just move on, guys?

Jeshin said he's fine with being banned. I wouldn't speak his mind on the spacegoating scapegoating though, either in his case specifically or in general.

Personally, I keep thinking 'I need to respond to this and then I'll just wait to see what comes of things.'

[Maziel]

Jeshin and Staff had a conversation and both parties are apparently satisfied with the outcome, so let's just move on, guys?

Jeshin said he's fine with being banned. I wouldn't speak his mind on the spacegoating scapegoating though, either in his case specifically or in general.

Personally, I keep thinking 'I need to respond to this and then I'll just wait to see what comes of things.'

When I first saw that my response was utter fear. I thought you had expanded your signature to the next level.

[Malifaxis]

If you are done with the failed attempts to subtly flame me, then we can move on.  If not, I can correct my signature with a photo of your maternal sponsor.

[Maziel]

If you are done with the failed attempts to subtly flame me, then we can move on.  If not, I can correct my signature with a photo of your maternal sponsor.

I honestly don't know what to tell you except that you're making me feel flamed.

[evilcabbage]

both of you cut it out

[Maziel]

Jeshin and Staff had a conversation and both parties are apparently satisfied with the outcome, so let's just move on, guys?

Jeshin said he's fine with being banned. I wouldn't speak his mind on the spacegoating scapegoating though, either in his case specifically or in general.

Personally, I keep thinking 'I need to respond to this and then I'll just wait to see what comes of things.'

Dude, at this point it sounds like you just want to argue for the sake of arguing... (which I'm not judging you for it, since this happens way too often on the GDB)

Jeshin - 'Hey, I have been contacted by a member of Armageddon staff. We have agreed to disagree but I am satisfied with the situation on my end. Whatever happens between the shadowboard and them is between them at this point.'

What else do you want out of this discussion? He says he is satisfied with the situation on his end, sounds like he is ready to move on as well.

I think I have to quote my grandma here.

With a smile, the leathery old women says, "I'm not arguing, I'm discussing"

There may have been a wink and a period in there as well.

I think my most general goal would be raising awareness that alt-gdbers shouldn't all be blamed for the actions of one guy. Jeshin makes a very good catalyst for this as he was openly blamed for such on TMC.

Dunno if I changed anything, ya'all are stubborn and angry here. Kind of like some other board somewhere