Armageddon General Discussion Board

Pursuant to Staff's post - that they'd like to see more players playing in Tuluk, I thought it prudent to take a poll to see what the players feel about this.

Please feel free to elaborate - so it gives everyone (including Staff) an idea of why folks aren't opting for this location.

I've been meaning to for awhile, but have just be caught up in other characters.

I do think toning the whole antimagick thing down is a good thing to so. Ever since the nerfing of Whirans because of the way they were dicking around in Tuluk, I haven't seen them do especially much.

I also think adding Undertuluk or something similar is a good idea. The removal of liratheans is a good step in that direction, but the templarate remains far too pervasive.

My chief dislike of Tuluk is the whole culture of subtlety nonsense, though. It is in stark contrast with good game design and should not be upheld anymore imo. It even is easy to write into the documentation; 'with the allanaki oppression having been so long ago, the necessity of subtlety and its memory have vanished' or something to that effect.

I play and have played in Tuluk regardless.

I'll play in Tuluk again when I'm ready to.

Quote from: Patuk on December 03, 2014, 01:31:19 PM
My chief dislike of Tuluk is the whole culture of subtlety nonsense, though. It is in stark contrast with good game design and should not be upheld anymore imo. It even is easy to write into the documentation; 'with the allanaki oppression having been so long ago, the necessity of subtlety and its memory have vanished' or something to that effect.

This is something that was addressed with the documentation revamp (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47010.0.html) and has been discussed since then.  

QuoteMade "Tuluki subtlety" no longer the "most important thing to remember."  Instead, it is "an important thing to keep in mind" and is explained as something that higher-ranked folks tend to expect, which explains why lower ranked folks may (or may not) pursue such ends in-game.

I encourage players to ask about the things about which they have misconceptions so that they can be corrected or addressed.

It still says subtlety is valued and expected from lower-class people. The only thing I'd like to know is why it was left in entirely.

Only fair that I put in my own views, since I'm polling for others' views.

I find Tuluk, to be stifling.

1) Magick and Psionics are restricted.
2) There's no "lawless" zone anymore, where PCs who wish to engage in activities which are not allowed or frowned upon in the "city-proper" to go to.

I'm not talking just about mages or sorcs of psis - even burglars, pps and assassins who want to "operate freely" have no options.

My personal suggestions would be:
a) Make the city secure externally (periphery-wise and aerially).
b) Reintroduce Undertuluk (or some alternate zone) where "anything goes".
c) Make it so "questionable activities" within private quarters in Tuluk, are not automagickally/psionically detected.
d) Introduce more "lawless" alleys in the city proper.

I cut my teeth in Tuluk and I think thats where I had my first 'Real' character, Aelithor, who worked as a merchant for a long-armed dwarf in his shop in Freil's Rest (Durg?). I think ever since then, I've felt the most comfortable playing in Tuluk. I'll definitely dabble in Allanak, or Red Storm, or Luirs, but my longest lived (and most fun) PCs have been in Tuluk I think.

I was hesitant with the new documentation revamps, but having played there since they've been implemented, I can say this is pretty much the best cohesive vision of Tuluk i've seen so far. The High play their game of Houses, while the lower class people seem more plainly rough and gritty than I remember. It feels much more real than before, where every Amos and Malik had to subtle-subtle-subtle and demurely sit at the bar and say nothing.

The Qynar/Striasiri were cool concepts, but really difficult to play out. The virtual manpower to govern sectors of Tuluk just wasn't in place -- I played a Noble that held the Grasslands, and he wanted to institute a tax on hunters who brought in more than their fair share of game -- While this may have been possible if there were fifty to a hundred House soldiers at his disposal, there wasn't, so that plan wasn't feasible. And so on. Not to knock the people who came up with the idea -- I think it was a great idea -- But it just didn't play out as expected I think. Governing a large swath of land is difficult to do when you only have 2-3 employees.

This incarnation of Tuluk seems self-sufficient, in the sense that Nobles and Templars can feasibly mold and shape their sector of Tuluk without Staff intervention or requiring them every step of the way. Self-sufficient is good -- Like the Blue Robes of Allanak, or Sergeants of T'zai Byn, they run a machine that is well-oiled. And while that machine may have issues, for the most part it runs itself. Blue Robes do as they wish, within reason, and interact with Staff to drive plots forward, not to make the machine work. T'zai Byn Sergeants, similarly, run the ship and take contracts and execute them, rarely needing to make the machine work with Staff. It just runs, and i'm glad to see Tuluk in a place where it can 'just run' without needing Staff to steer the ship or patch the holes.

I think this comes about from laying down solid foundations in the documentation, and then letting PCs within that construct interact with each other. So, I suppose I see this version of Tuluk as having the strongest foundation i've seen, so far.

Quote from: Patuk on December 03, 2014, 01:51:56 PM
It still says subtlety is valued and expected from lower-class people. The only thing I'd like to know is why it was left in entirely.

I believe this may be a case of interpreting the docs in a different way, so I would first recommend a read of the specific section:

QuoteDepending on caste, social status can be influenced in different ways. One important thing to keep in mind is subtlety. Higher-ranked individuals tend to look down on overt, obvious actions--which means that the lower members of society will tend to strive towards more subtle speech and action, in return. Associating with the 'wrong crowd' can also cause a negative impact. Alternatively, working willingly with one of His Chosen or His Faithful as a partisan can cause a positive impact, assuming they are in good standing themselves. These are only a few ways that social standing can be affected, but these examples should be helpful.

I've bolded the relevant part.  Those two lines there are written specifically as an improvement on the previous documentation, which held no room for nuance.  The paragraph used to say:

QuoteDepending on caste, social status can be influenced in different ways. The most important thing to keep in mind is subtlety. Overt, obvious actions are looked down upon as a general rule. Associating with the 'wrong crowd' (which, in Tuluk, includes magickers and southerners) can also cause a negative impact. Alternatively, working willingly with one of His Chosen or His Faithful as a partisan can cause a positive impact, assuming they are in good standing themselves. These are only a few ways that social standing can be affected, but these examples should be helpful.

So:

before:  subtlety = the most important thing ever.  Overt, obvious actions are looked down upon as a general rule.  Interpretation, for playerbase at the time = subtlety is basically everything about Tuluk, you don't say what you mean ever and if you act southern at all you just don't get Tuluk and aren't being Tuluki.

After:  subtlety = an important thing to keep in mind.  Higher-ranked people tend to (read:  this does not mean always) look down on overt, obvious things, and lower ranked people tend to (read:  this does not mean always) respond in that manner.  Interpretation, laid out by staff at the time = this gives you plenty of reason to not be "subtle" (interpretation = mine, laid out when it was announced).

So that's why it was "left in."  It does not say it is valued and expected from lower-class people, it merely explains what general tendencies might be and lets the player be the judge of what they should or shouldn't do in a particular situation or with a particular character.

I'll play in Tuluk when I ride up with Allanak's army to occupy it.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on December 03, 2014, 01:41:28 PM
I'll play in Tuluk again when I'm ready to.

Yes, same here. It has a certain appeal, but so do other areas of the game, all in their own ways.

I know it is, and I read that. I'd still like to know why it was not removed altogether, and left up to the playerbase itself.

I need 2 votes, as I would vote for 2 and 5.
Well, the magick one I do not care about, in fact, it is about the only change to Tuluk that I fully agree with.

I do not know enough about the Templar changes to have much of an opinion, but it at least sounds good on the surface.

Now, as to things -I- think need fixing.

First and top on my list, the latest city revamp IMO is a horrid monstrosity that removes any feeling of Tuluk as the white city of Muk, and leaves it feeling as a jumbled mess with no feeling of "soul".

Next, the all too stifling feeling coming from the city revamp, lack of UT or rinth like area and removel of most tribal areas or at least ones with a tribal feel of the Tuluk beginnings, combine that with guards checking everybodies inks to restrict it even more, and that is something really hard to swallow in the believability department.

Oh, shadow artists...I don't know if it has been said but...somebody please change the name of that one.

Over all, Tuluk has a feeling of a stifling isolationist group to me now days...and to be honest, I'd rather play Soh Lana Kah.

Just my opinions of course and they do not really mean anything, but I do not see myself playing Tuluk again any time soon.

Quote from: palomar on December 03, 2014, 02:08:42 PM

Quote from: Marauder Moe on December 03, 2014, 01:41:28 PM
I'll play in Tuluk again when I'm ready to.

Yes, same here. It has a certain appeal, but so do other areas of the game, all in their own ways.

Palomar - You're right - Tuluk certainly has it's own appeal - as do all other areas in the game.

However, the intricacy we're trying to address is - would Tuluk's appeal be greater, if certain changes were made/reintroduced? Or does it not matter to the players?

Scrap Tuluk.  Start over.

Quote from: Incognito on December 03, 2014, 01:54:14 PM
Only fair that I put in my own views, since I'm polling for others' views.

I find Tuluk, to be stifling.

When was the last time you played a Tuluki in Tuluk?  For how long?

As for the reasoning here for why some people like/don't like it, that's something to consider--if there are areas that we can improve things that make sense, sure. 

However, ultimately:

Staff want to do stuff for players in Tuluk as well as foster conflict between the city-states.  In the process, things will probably get added and be changed over time in both city-states, at least in part because we want to make conflict in all its forms something easier for players to accomplish in a story-driven way.  We want to see more plots, RPTs, and the like involving Tuluk, and the ultimate thing needed for that is players IN Tuluk.  We're making a concerted effort with this open request because it's important to get more than one or two people deciding they should play sponsored roles/do some kind of trickle-up towards the activity critical mass.

The game and the playerbase in terms of regional activity are both largely cyclical; this gets repeated because it is historically true.  Generally, it's not a problem because it corrects itself.  We're hoping to give it a bit of a jumpstart so that the upcoming plot ideas staff teams have (for both city-states) can be brought to fruition.

If there were changes that (re)introduced roles, I think a lot of people would express interest for the novelty factor.

I'd like to give another shot at playing a Circle Bard some day, as I fell in love with that clan while I was there.

I suppose, though, I can't really say much about the (relatively) recent changes that happened in Tuluk because I stopped playing there (*ahem*) shortly before they started being implemented.

Quote from: Patuk on December 03, 2014, 02:12:36 PM
I know it is, and I read that. I'd still like to know why it was not removed altogether, and left up to the playerbase itself.

I'm not following you, so I would like to be sure we are on the same page and that I answer your question here.  Are you asking to understand staff's reasoning for keeping it?

I am, yes. It is one of the reasons I dislike Tuluk. There may be very good reasons to keep it in, but I think they have a net negative influence.

I had a long thing written out but I've copied it elsewhere for posting just in case.

Can you tell me what it is that you dislike about subtlety in Tuluk?  What is it that you think of when you read that?  What is it that you think is allowed/promoted by these couple of lines of documentation?  Is there a specific thing that you are thinking of when you say, "it is one of the reasons I dislike Tuluk?"  If you can come up with an example, that would help (please be generic about it if possible--if you want you can pop in a request and I can read over what you are concerned about).

Quote from: Marauder Moe on December 03, 2014, 02:23:34 PM
If there were changes that (re)introduced roles, I think a lot of people would express interest for the novelty factor.

I'd like to give another shot at playing a Circle Bard some day, as I fell in love with that clan while I was there.

I suppose, though, I can't really say much about the (relatively) recent changes that happened in Tuluk because I stopped playing there (*ahem*) shortly before they started being implemented.

Poet Circle auditions are happening this weekend as per the Announcement - and I'm pretty sure you can apply to join them like any other human tribal role with a random role call request. I'm pretty sure you don't need to wait for Staff to post a role call on the forums. (Feel free to beat me down, Staff, as I might be wrong on that last part.)

I think Tuluk feels too much about limits and Allanak feels more about possibilities.  See ink checkers.

Tuluk feels like you have to excessively deal with beaurocracy and social ties to do anything.  In Allanak it feels like you just need to be good.

I haven't actually seriously played Tuluk in so many years. I ought to give it a go at some point, probably. I just have all these notions of how the city was that make me stay away. As such, I'm not voting, I have zero experience on how the city is these days. I haven't even seen a Tuluki PC in forever.
Nyr, kill me off in some interesting fashion and I'll probably give it a go! I just hope there's a bar that's okay with my PCs having a piss in the corner after tavern-sitting too long.

I think people would play more in Tuluk if there were more people in Tuluk. A useful analysis, I know.  :P

But having played in both citystates, I really do think that's one of the bigger differences. When playing in Allanak, my PCs have usually had a large variety of people to interact with, on numerous social levels. While sometimes it could be slow, there were usually enough people in multiple areas that keeping plots rolling and having a lot more plot options was possible. In Tuluk, my experience is that it's easier to give up on because you have to wait longer for people to be around and in the meantime, you have to entertain yourself. I have had great times in Tuluk when there's been enough people, but in my experience, a lot of plots sputter and die because there is a lack of people. The obvious answer is to get more people.

Can we talk about Tuluk and Allanak in general a moment, too?

I believe Tuluk is set up in a way that makes it harder to successfully have murder, corruption, and betrayal. I love the idea of legalized crime and that it is central to the culture. I'm not convinced that the way it is set up makes things more enjoyable for people. Right now, you have to be a tool of the citystate. The templars are middlemen who are supposed to be uncorrupted in this role. People have already said why this feels forced and controlling when this was announced. Crime outside of the control of templars also seems like something that would be contrived. It's shocking and confusing not when people are found out, but rather when people get away with things. When Tuluk's greatest advantage is knowledge, it only makes sense that the templars would want to exert control. I would argue that because of the spies, Tuluk has even more reason to want to tightly control everything and never trust anyone. However, I don't personally know about the effect of changes (templars, shadow artists), and my comments are more as an outsider looking in.

I also like that Tuluk doesn't like magick. That's also a central part of the culture. However, I don't think it is doing the city-state any favors in terms of relative power. Allanak has templars with magick. Allanak has the gemmed. In addition to this, Allanak has mundane roles and more people to fill them. A magicker can quickly become incredibly powerful, whereas say an assassin has to put in a lot more time. When the opposing city-state has not only giant nuclear grandes they can throw at you, but also a plethera of normal soldiers, then the state with less people and only normal soldiers is screwed. It's like the Amish going up against a tank.

There are ways around that, but it would require giving Tuluk's mundanes a significant edge. Dasari could produce some poisons or plagues that were deadly, for example (more general and available then a specific one-term plot). Kassigarh thug training could give assassins an edge. Winrothol mounts could give rangers an edge. Tenneshi's...uh... Special building powers could provide a place for people to do something more. However, all of these options are also very House focused. Is that bad? I don't really think so, no. I know people like playing indies, but there's a lot of flex room with the option of partisan status.

Maybe the perks thing is already true, I have no idea. But if it has been considered or implemented, I bet if it was more widely known, it might attract more players to see what all the hype was about.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on December 03, 2014, 03:14:53 PM
I think Tuluk feels too much about limits and Allanak feels more about possibilities.  See ink checkers.

Tuluk feels like you have to excessively deal with beaurocracy and social ties to do anything.  In Allanak it feels like you just need to be good.

As far as I know, what you're referring to is just to check if you're a citizen. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a citizen to get more benefits. I do think it is easier for an Allanaki to go more places and do more (outside of Tuluk), since they can easily pretend to be anything, with no marks to tell the world otherwise.

I think in Tuluk things are just more formalized then Allanak. You still need influence in Allanak to get a lot accomplished, it just usually is more subtle (isn't that ironic?) and less overtly defined.

I would play in Tuluk again, but here is a short summary of my somewhat difficult experiences as a new character there (I'm using my best judgment to ascertain this isn't shedding any IC [information]).

So I roll a dirty, useless commoner of the lowest tier.  I jump in the game with my shiny new dirtbag, eager to check the city out.  Walk down the stairs from the starter room and into a bar, and step out onto the streets, slowly beginning to localize myself.  After all, he's supposed to have grown up here, tattoos and all, so I'd best know my way around.

Five minutes later, well displaced from my original location, some authority figure comes out of hide and tells me I didn't do the right thing when I passed person X and is basically acting like I just fucked Marsellus Wallace.  He's going in and out of hide, so I'm missing my tells at him.  Eventually I figure out the correct social protocol, and get dismissed and continue my wandering.

[Obligatory youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysXMUj7XJ5Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysXMUj7XJ5Q)]

(By contrast, in Allanak, if you don't bow to a templar (as an example of committing a social faux pas), someone's probably going to say "bow or he'll cut you down, dude" and it's that easy.)

As I rack up the hours, I find people being really friendly with my character.  Maybe I reeked of newbie.  But let's just say he wasn't a guy you wouldn't want to talk to on the streets if you were walking the straight and narrow, so it didn't make intuitive sense to me why people would be consistently interested in socializing with me.  Nevertheles, given Tuluk's duplicitous nature, I had to assume these kinds of exchanges were within the bounds of normal RP.  (Honestly, I should have gone for a higher-tier kind of commoner and not something like a dirty breed, but I was looking for a challenge and clearly got one.)

Of course I hugely appreciated all these guys' efforts to bring me into their RP.  But Tuluk overall strikes me as roleplay ultra-hard-mode - as in, I felt like I needed an extra layer of documentation for what was going on between me and the other PCs.  It requires just that much more effort to get into playing confidently there, which makes me understand why some people have had trouble enjoying themselves.

[edits]

Tuluk strikes me as the kind of place I would need to experience as walking in as an outsider, harnessing IC cluelessness to my advantage, in order to get the groundwork to comfortably play a decent Tuluki citizen.

I intend to do that some day when Allanak sacks and invades when my character concepts kick the bucket.

I think you can easily play either a Warrener or someone who was born 'in the country' and is still a citizen, but not intrinsically familiar with the culture and ways of Tuluk.

I do recommend playing as a citizen rather than an un-inked Luirsian or just a non-citizen, and as a human, for your first time in Tuluk.

Quote from: CodeMaster on December 03, 2014, 03:38:54 PM
Five minutes later, well displaced from my original location, some authority figure comes out of hide and tells me I didn't do the right thing when I passed person X and is basically acting like I just fucked Marsellus Wallace.  He's going in and out of hide, so I'm missing my tells at him.  Eventually I figure out the correct social protocol, and get dismissed and continue my wandering.

If this ever happens, I suggest filing a player complaint. There is already code to talk to people from the shadows, if you're breaking your hide, alerting someone to your presence, and then hiding back up again - that's ridiculous. Your best bet if you ever see that again is to talk to staff.

As for everything else - Yes and no. Tuluk -is- really hard to get the first time, the second time, and the fifth time you try it. Even so, after every single attempt you learn a bit more and you slowly start to understand that the bard saying you were a 'totally cool dude, bro' because you were 'packing a dank hit of that qel, bro' was really just saying you suck at rolling tubes of spice and she was going to facestab you repeatedly with the blunt end of a pitchfork if you dropped a single grain.

Quote from: Reiloth on December 03, 2014, 04:08:50 PM
I think you can easily play either a Warrener or someone who was born 'in the country' and is still a citizen, but not intrinsically familiar with the culture and ways of Tuluk.

I do recommend playing as a citizen rather than an un-inked Luirsian or just a non-citizen, and as a human, for your first time in Tuluk.

Admittedly, Tuluk doesn't really have a whole lot of villages one can use as a 'I don't really know what's happening, lol, but I am Tuluki citizen.' You could say you were from the Kadian Village, I guess, but... I'm kind of unsure if they would allow unaffiliated people to live there.

I think that's why I like 'subtle subtle subtle' in Tuluk.

It reminds me of the Game of Houses in the Wheel of Time series -- Where every sentence someone says can be used against them, or could be some 'play' in the Game of Houses for one political entity or another. One can't simply ignore the Game, because that makes it seem even more-so that they are playing. It's incredibly annoying and intriguing at the same time.

Quote from: Asanadas on December 03, 2014, 04:07:00 PM
Tuluk strikes me as the kind of place I would need to experience as walking in as an outsider, harnessing IC cluelessness to my advantage, in order to get the groundwork to comfortably play a decent Tuluki citizen.

I intend to do that some day when Allanak sacks and invades when my character concepts kick the bucket.

yeah.  Actually, it would be cool if one of the family role calls were for a family of foreigners, maybe refugees from Allanak, that were hiding in Tuluk with no tattoos and attempting, as a group, to get citizenship.

Quote from: bcw81 on December 03, 2014, 04:14:12 PM

Quote from: Reiloth on December 03, 2014, 04:08:50 PM
I think you can easily play either a Warrener or someone who was born 'in the country' and is still a citizen, but not intrinsically familiar with the culture and ways of Tuluk.

I do recommend playing as a citizen rather than an un-inked Luirsian or just a non-citizen, and as a human, for your first time in Tuluk.

Admittedly, Tuluk doesn't really have a whole lot of villages one can use as a 'I don't really know what's happening, lol, but I am Tuluki citizen.' You could say you were from the Kadian Village, I guess, but... I'm kind of unsure if they would allow unaffiliated people to live there.

Yeah it would be nice if they weren't even coded locations, but something along the lines of "There are many outlying villages surrounding Tuluk in the Gol Krathu region -- Blurby known for its grain harvest; Turby, where many dusk horn herders hail from; Murrby, set in the grasslands east of Tuluk, where magickers are grown". And so on. Just so they could be used for backgrounds, and for new players to reference.

It also gives a little bit of realism to the 'countryside' of Tuluk, where I imagine there would be hamlets and villages surrounding the city-state.

My main issue with 'subtlety' is that, as effected by the people there, what I see is more that people will end up talking about events and goings on even less than they otherwise would. Whenyou combine 'Tuluki value subtlety' and 'the templarate is wstching you be quiet,' what you end up is a large amount of interaction happening behind closed doors rather than in public areas, and 'outsiders' to the game's social climate being completely left in the dark of what is going on by sheer virtue of not knowing the ins and outs of city policy.

Hmm. I don't see that as much as topics like magick and traitors and shadow artists aren't broached in a gauche manner. People talk around subjects rather than outright blurting them.

In a narrative storytelling sense, this can work and be executed well when people feel and think their true thoughts while saying something different -- It reads well in a novel, for instance.

In a game, I can see how all you get is the quiet bar, with people saying 'how do you do' and you can't glean much more from them unless you can read their minds.

I think there's a happy middle ground that i've seen, at least, where people are subtle and quietly dance around topics that can't be discussed publicly, while they will be up front with many other topics.

That is the issue I'm taking, yes. 1984 is a great book, but would make for a shitty game. If someone gets killed, a building is burned, or anything at all happens, getting involved is impossible if everyone who was around will go 'I don't know what you are talking about, everything is a-okay.'

Like Nyr mentioned previously, the subtlety thing has changed.

It seems to be a part of the social etiquette of the upper castes and while average Amos may be familiar with the idea, there's not really a need for him to abide by it when he's dealing with average Malik. Faithful Lord Fuckwood will probably be unhappy with Amos if Amos works for say... a Kassigarh lady as a debt collector and blabs blatantly at the bar about how he legally gets to beat people up for money, because it goes counter to the constructed image of peace and harmony and benevolent care, but average Malik is probably not going to take much offense, if any, to Amos' lack of subtlety.


That's my interpretation of the new stuff, at least.

Yeah, and that's what i've seen IG at least.

Among these choices the first one is the only one that is applicable to my view. I would play it. The only barrier I have is that I am involved in many plots with my current PC that I have absolutely no intention of ending. The other choices would be nice changes but that's best answer for me with the way the poll is worded.

Tulukis are dull. Tuluk is dull. Bards do everything but be entertaining.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on December 03, 2014, 04:49:58 PM
Tulukis are dull. Tuluk is dull. Bards do everything but be entertaining.

I feel like too many bards try to be nothing but singers or painters.

>.> On recent topics in the game discussion thread, I've always seen Tuluk as more of an Orlais from Dragon Age. Yes, everyone is extravagantly splendid, and yes, everyone is going to stab you in the back the first chance they get. Bards aren't about singing, they're about playing the game with knives and daggers and thoughts.

I think there's some singing in there

Ok a few thoughts on this.
Tuluk is pretty limited in what can happen due to the numbers of players in the game. If you want a warrior, you're and independent (And yes, an independent counts as some lackey of a chosen who goes and kills people and things for them) or you join the legions.
People used to be able to join Lyksae and Winrothol.
I think from a northern perspective warrior PCs got tired of killing Kryl for no reason as its become pretty obvious they are virtually indestructible and sooner or later a kryl was going to kill you, because lets face it, there are few NPCs worse than Kryl.
So warriors don't have much going on. Also, there was a HUGE 'peace'. It is pretty hard to employ a soldier in a culture that deals with things on a 'subtle' level with shadow artists and devious nobility and templars. Also --> THOSE templars.

I'm not a fan of removing the 'antimagick' stuff. I don't even know what that means. Mages haven't gotten any less twink, and its already hard enough for a city-state to fight against another city-state that employs them. Recent IC events and even those still on going confirm this. I like playing in Tuluk and knowing I won't have to deal with magick as much.

Trying to type this out, it is hard to be specific the way I would like. I think the game changes are promising (Player created clans, moving forward with shadow artists, transitions in the triumvirate). I think some of the problems will solve themselves.

I'm a little dumbfounded to hear about the lack of enjoyment from tuluki culture, seeing as the other main city-state in my opinion really has none. The only thing Allanak has impressed me with is the amount of PC players to be found tavern sitting between dusk and dawn on any given day of the week. That and the amount of plots that seem to be continuously evolving there. (I'm not including the Labyrinth in this assessment, which is a different beast entirely)

As far as warriors not having anything going on is concerned, I think that if a wad of warriors formed up in Tuluk then, if there were enough of them and they were motivated, they could orient themselves toward PvP against Allanak, which would be way more fun than kryl.

I mean, usually clans can get in a shitload of trouble if they're heavy handed with PK'ing or make murder too much of their focus (or are perceived as such at any rate), but the current climate of the game seems like it would encourage and facilitate these tendencies as long as players chose a side and really worked toward harming the other side in tangible and terrible ways. It's a nice thought, anyway.

Quote from: Kronibas on December 03, 2014, 05:35:40 PM
As far as warriors not having anything going on is concerned, I think that if a wad of warriors formed up in Tuluk then, if there were enough of them and they were motivated, they could orient themselves toward PvP against Allanak, which would be way more fun than kryl.

Until very recently, this was not true. NOW, there is a reason and its probably the season to get involved and look at PK'ing and aggression against somewhere like Allanak. Up until the last HRPT? Not much going on, and for awhile prior, that didn't have to do with Kryl. Maybe that speaks to the various leaders in the city playing not driving plots, or maybe Tuluk just hasn't had much development until very recently.

Contrary to somewhere like say, Allanak, in which I could name off multiples upon multiples of plots and plot progression that kept a lot of people involved. So yeah, eventually people are going to stop playing in the north and move south to get in on the action. Also, I don't see every plotline progress, i'm just another player but i've spent a good amount of time in Tuluk, and in sponsored roles that cut paths between both cities, so I have a good feeling where the action normally goes down. And so far as I can tell, it hasn't been in Tuluk for awhile.

I think Tuluk has been an evolving creature, and this stage of its evolution is probably the pinnacle of what it can be.

Now, it either gets destroyed, or it fucks shit up. Commence!

Quote from: CodeMaster on December 03, 2014, 03:38:54 PM
As I rack up the hours, I find people being really friendly with my character.  Maybe I reeked of newbie.  But let's just say he wasn't a guy you wouldn't want to talk to on the streets if you were walking the straight and narrow, so it didn't make intuitive sense to me why people would be consistently interested in socializing with me.  Nevertheles, given Tuluk's duplicitous nature, I had to assume these kinds of exchanges were within the bounds of normal RP.  (Honestly, I should have gone for a higher-tier kind of commoner and not something like a dirty breed, but I was looking for a challenge and clearly got one.)

Of course I hugely appreciated all these guys' efforts to bring me into their RP.  But Tuluk overall strikes me as roleplay ultra-hard-mode - as in, I felt like I needed an extra layer of documentation for what was going on between me and the other PCs.  It requires just that much more effort to get into playing confidently there, which makes me understand why some people have had trouble enjoying themselves.
[edits]

Have you considered that they didn't have anyone else to RP with and were desperate for a new face???

Quote from: Asanadas on December 03, 2014, 04:07:00 PM
Tuluk strikes me as the kind of place I would need to experience as walking in as an outsider, harnessing IC cluelessness to my advantage, in order to get the groundwork to comfortably play a decent Tuluki citizen.

I intend to do that some day when Allanak sacks and invades when my character concepts kick the bucket.

When Allanak was struck by misfortune after misfortune and even a little earlier before that - when tensions between the North and South had cooled after the Rebellion - a slow, steady trickle of refugees, outcasts and those who couldn't continue to live in the South for whatever reason, began to head north, arriving in Tuluk inkless, poor and weakened by the long journey.

These refugees found themselves tolerated, but never welcomed or enfranchised by Tuluki society - they lacked position in the caste hierarchy and were seen almost as unclean - moreso even than the slave caste. During Tuluk's resurgence the worst jobs fell to them and they did them in order to avoid attention from the seemingly omnipresent Templarate, with the luckiest of their number living in the worst hovels the Warrens had to offer - the rest had to do as best as they could in the mouldering wreckage of the ruins in the Old Quarter.

A deluge and a violent coup/re-shuffling of Tuluk's power structure in the wake of the decimation of Tuluk's fighting forces (though no-one would ever say that out loud) have spelled doom for the refugees, however. Excluded from their homes and restricted to only one quarter of the city, their employment options have also been eroded as the city has fallen on hard times - Warreners openly struggle and compete for 'undesirable' work and there is simmering discontent and hatred for the unwelcome foreigners.

A crude shanty-town is emerging in Friel's Rest as the refugee population tries to recover. But they are on the brink - it would only take a spark to burn them all away.

So if you want to do a family role call for some refugees, that's cool too.

Okay, I didn't feel like reading all the posts. First after seeing the poling results I guess having a while away from Tuluk has brought more players in, considering 20 players voted for playing in Tuluk regardless. Last time I played in Tuluk I don't think there were even 20 players that played there. Second of all, I picked the last option. I did this because of how few players there seemed to be that actually played in Tuluk the last time I had a character there. Third thing is I was informed by staff that I should play in another region for a while before I played in Tuluk again. I'm actually having some fun with where my character is playing currently, though sometimes it is very slow there.

Tuluk is not for me. I've tried it. I've played there for long periods of time, even recently. There's not enough interaction for a player like me and I regularly play in places like the 'rinth where you seldom see people. The difference is in a place like the 'Rinth or Storm, there's an easy excuse to go to Allanak and interact with people. It can make perfect IC sense.

Tuluk feels completely disconnected from the game to me. It feels like you have to be in a powerful clan, or important house for there to be any chance of being a part of a plot. You can't just be Joe-blow cotton-picker/Kryl hunter and find enough daily interaction for that to be pleasing.

What I find amusing is this poll, where you'd think the vast majority of people are perfectly okay with playing in Tuluk. Well, that's a flat-out lie. I've been there. If all you people were willing to play it wouldn't feel like it's freaking empty. But even more than that, if you all DID start playing there, I feel like that would take too many players away from the places I do enjoy playing.

I'd be perfectly okay if Tuluk was wiped from the game completely. I understand that other people enjoy its nuances but if they're already basically not playing this game with me, I probably wouldn't at all mind if they were gone.

Why Allanak is better in my opinion:

• Inclusive:

        Any tribal, Luirsman, or Stormer can easily pretend to be from Allanak after picking up the accent.(Except to the Nenyuks who control the apartments?)
        That immediately adds to the amount of players who eventually have Allanak as an option to play from.
        Tuluk? Not so much. Tattoos were a bad game design decision. Too hard to fake unless you're a staff sponsored role.

• Quality over Quantity:
          There aren't numerous docs over complicating everything.
         
  
         
  • The nobles are pretty simple to understand. You know what a Fale is going to an inappropriate party noble. A Borsail is a cruel slaver. An Oash is a creepy fuck with gemmers. A Tor used to be a stuffy soldier. Tulukis nobles are just too ..nuanced?
  • A bard is not a bard. People see a bard in Allanak and think I may be entertained. A Tuluki bard has six different kinds with many not focusing on entertaining at all. Just too complicated.
  • You know where you stand. You are trash if you are and elf or a breed. You don't need to pull out a caste chart to know if you can insult someone.
  • You get to participate in murdering people. The templars aren't all knowing and have to figure out that you did it the hard way. In Tuluk if you are a foreigner, even one allowed to be there, you can't use Shadow Artists directly afaik.
  • Allanak has real corruption. I've done all kinds of stuff in Allanak as a Tuluki as long as I made myself useful to Templars. You don't need to be so 'subtle' about bribes.

Allanak gives you an outline and you have room to flesh yourself out in interesting ways. Tuluk forces you to fit into an uncomfortable box. Tuluk is all about keeping people out in my opinion.

     I quit playing in Tuluk somewhere in 2005. I was driven out by a variety of factors such as the extreme power of the Lirathan templars, a smaller player base, fewer guild options, a changing culture that wasn't my style, and a propensity for Tuluki templars to execute whimsically. My opinions may have been in error. I've never played a Tuluki templar or read their documentation, maybe I just had some bad luck. However, the result was me playing outside of Tuluk for a very long time.
    However, earlier this year, I gave Tuluk another chance. Nyr had made a lot of changes that I thought were improvements and thought it would be fun to check a very different city. Overall, I'd say that the city has improved significantly. The templars are more reasonable, there is a shadow artist system, there is less subtlety, there's been open conflict between noble houses, and there is a war with Allanak. Tuluk definitely has its strengths such as the partisan system, local game that new characters can hunt, plenty of employment opportunities, and a diverse staff.
    Despite these improvements, I think that there are several impediments that make Tuluk a little less fun to me than Allanak. One big problem that faces Tuluk is the lack of a lawless/templar free zone. The labyrinth of Allanak allows for pickpockets, assassins, thieves, runaways, rogue mages, and psionicists a place to play and interact with each other without immediate death from the Allanaki templarate and their soldiers. Tuluk needs something like this. It doesn't have to be a return of Undertuluk. Perhaps bring back the elven tent market in the warrens similar to what old Tuluk had. Maybe pull the soldiers from the Tuluki lumber village to help in the war, leaving it with a rough and tumble environment. I think the Tuluki tattoos also drive some players out of Tuluk. I like the ideas of the tattoo system, but I also recognize that if you create a character with these tattoos your character faces a lot of adversity if you decide to play elsewhere (such as the more popular Allanak) or if your forced to play elsewhere due to IC factors.
    The current lack of players also seems to make Tuluk a little top heavy. There seem to be too many leaders and not enough followers. Hopefully, this will correct itself over time with some staff help. I've noticed a constant stream of staff roll calls for Tuluki nobles over the last year or two. They seem much more frequent than Allanaki noble roll calls. My theory is that these nobles find it difficult to gain traction, recruits, and drive plots thus they are more frequently storing their characters instead of dying to assassination. My perspective is one from the north, so perhaps it's the same in Allanak. I'm uncertain how to correct the situation without increasing players in Tuluk or shrinking the options there.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on December 03, 2014, 07:45:27 PM
Tuluk is not for me. I've tried it. I've played there for long periods of time, even recently. There's not enough interaction for a player like me and I regularly play in places like the 'rinth where you seldom see people. The difference is in a place like the 'Rinth or Storm, there's an easy excuse to go to Allanak and interact with people. It can make perfect IC sense.

Tuluk feels completely disconnected from the game to me. It feels like you have to be in a powerful clan, or important house for there to be any chance of being a part of a plot. You can't just be Joe-blow cotton-picker/Kryl hunter and find enough daily interaction for that to be pleasing.

What I find amusing is this poll, where you'd think the vast majority of people are perfectly okay with playing in Tuluk. Well, that's a flat-out lie. I've been there. If all you people were willing to play it wouldn't feel like it's freaking empty. But even more than that, if you all DID start playing there, I feel like that would take too many players away from the places I do enjoy playing.

I'd be perfectly okay if Tuluk was wiped from the game completely. I understand that other people enjoy its nuances but if they're already basically not playing this game with me, I probably wouldn't at all mind if they were gone.

  There is a difference between being okay playing there and choosing to play there over Allanak. I'd wager that every player has a certain location, clan, region, or guild that they feel they'll never play. I can't imagine myself ever joining House Fale or playing a Vivaduan. However, I swore off Red Storm years ago, but played my last character there with mild success. Try to keep an open mind. Perhaps you'll change your mind one day? Maybe one day you'll see my post on the House Fale board as the greatest Vivaduan Whatsit of all time?

The crux of my problems with Tuluk have nothing to do with how it's designed, I think all the recent changes are great.

My problem is the game is too big, and the player-base is too small to support it at the level of interaction I desire. It's the same reason I don't play any other RPI's. Their playerbases are usually fucking tiny. So I go where the people go. Where I'll find the easiest interaction and have the most fun. Add to that the people go to the city I think best represents what Zalanthas is, and I just see no reason to try playing up north anymore.

Even places like Luirs or the Tablelands can feel more lively than Tuluk has to me in the past.

It would be cool if Tuluk had more advanced technology than Allanak.

I think it'd make sense if Allanak's heavy reliance on magick stifled technological progression, especially military technology. Of course, you'd probably have to throw some metal into the mix in order to make this work, but having Tuluk stumble upon a large mine would only inspire more conflict over resources. (I understand that Tuluk has all the resources already, but I still think this could be made to work.)

I think this idea would help flesh out the "identity" of Tuluk and add some interesting roles that people could play.

It's not going to happen, of course, but I like the idea.

I disliked playing in pre-revamp Tuluk mostly due to the "poorly kept secret".
In my opinion, it was game breaking, especially the last two or three years before the HRPT.

I assume/hope with the merging of the Templarate Orders those abilities were nerfed, but
the concept of PC leaders with advanced psionic powers still leaves somewhat of a bad taste
in my mouth for the same reason that staff doesn't normally let you role up psions or sorcs
(RIP guild_sorcerer) for Noble and GMH roles.  It made it even worse that we weren't able to
discuss the problems with the system (because "OMG, that's sekrit, we can't talk about that!")
Being able to codely manipulate the outside world (without the need to involve/use/rely on
other player-characters) from behind locked doors, gates, and walls protected by God-Kings
with limitless power is just too much power for PCs, IMO.

That said...
Both cities are awesome in their own way, and it is great that staff has changed Tuluk in ways
that make it better fit into the game world, because face it, Tuluk was very contradictory to
the spirit of Armageddon (much like the Tan Muark were).  Again, the changes to Tuluk are
awesome and were much needed, but why is staff "pushing" players into Tuluk? It reminds me
of how we the players use to be able to advertise for clan (Kadius/Benjari/The Guild is awesome
and booming right now, people! Come join us!)  I'd much rather see the desert clans get a
push than a city many people just don't like playing in, but that is just like... my opinion, man.

Quote from: Beethoven on December 03, 2014, 10:22:42 PM
It would be cool if Tuluk had more advanced technology than Allanak.

I think it'd make sense if Allanak's heavy reliance on magick stifled technological progression, especially military technology. Of course, you'd probably have to throw some metal into the mix in order to make this work, but having Tuluk stumble upon a large mine would only inspire more conflict over resources. (I understand that Tuluk has all the resources already, but I still think this could be made to work.)

I think this idea would help flesh out the "identity" of Tuluk and add some interesting roles that people could play.

It's not going to happen, of course, but I like the idea.

That's an awesome idea man. You shoud totally app a noble with some technological advances in mind and included in your app!

Quote from: KankWhisperer on December 03, 2014, 08:39:23 PM
Why Allanak is better in my opinion:

• Inclusive:

        Any tribal, Luirsman, or Stormer can easily pretend to be from Allanak after picking up the accent.(Except to the Nenyuks who control the apartments?)
        That immediately adds to the amount of players who eventually have Allanak as an option to play from.
        Tuluk? Not so much. Tattoos were a bad game design decision. Too hard to fake unless you're a staff sponsored role.

• Quality over Quantity:
          There aren't numerous docs over complicating everything.
         
  
         
  • The nobles are pretty simple to understand. You know what a Fale is going to an inappropriate party noble. A Borsail is a cruel slaver. An Oash is a creepy fuck with gemmers. A Tor used to be a stuffy soldier. Tulukis nobles are just too ..nuanced?
  • A bard is not a bard. People see a bard in Allanak and think I may be entertained. A Tuluki bard has six different kinds with many not focusing on entertaining at all. Just too complicated.
  • You know where you stand. You are trash if you are and elf or a breed. You don't need to pull out a caste chart to know if you can insult someone.
  • You get to participate in murdering people. The templars aren't all knowing and have to figure out that you did it the hard way. In Tuluk if you are a foreigner, even one allowed to be there, you can't use Shadow Artists directly afaik.
  • Allanak has real corruption. I've done all kinds of stuff in Allanak as a Tuluki as long as I made myself useful to Templars. You don't need to be so 'subtle' about bribes.

Allanak gives you an outline and you have room to flesh yourself out in interesting ways. Tuluk forces you to fit into an uncomfortable box. Tuluk is all about keeping people out in my opinion.

Nail, meet head.

Can we ever really get away from the need to have that 'other' place to play when your 'Naki PC dies and you don't want to play with all the PCs your previous PC was frenemies with?  I'm going to keep making occasional Tulukis just to get away from whoever I most recently failed to murder.

Edit:  As a critique, I think a lot of people are bored by Tuluk's "don't talk about plots because that's unsubtle" policy.  This could be especially boring for new players who can't tell that anything at all is happening under the surface.

You should be able to buy Tuluki tattoos in Nak for a very high price.
The mdesc would vary only the tiniest amount. The sdesc would be the same.

Quote from: Beethoven on December 03, 2014, 10:22:42 PM
It would be cool if Tuluk had more advanced technology than Allanak.

I think it'd make sense if Allanak's heavy reliance on magick stifled technological progression, especially military technology. Of course, you'd probably have to throw some metal into the mix in order to make this work, but having Tuluk stumble upon a large mine would only inspire more conflict over resources. (I understand that Tuluk has all the resources already, but I still think this could be made to work.)

I think this idea would help flesh out the "identity" of Tuluk and add some interesting roles that people could play.

It's not going to happen, of course, but I like the idea.

The whole "something happening to give Tuluk some umff" doesn't seem like a bad idea.

Finding a way to use Nilazi in Tuluk seems really cool. They're the only elementalist class that can't take a gem in Nak, and they just so happen to align with Tuluk's, uhhh, political philosophy.

I actually submitted a special app for a Nilazi Mage hunter in Tuluk less than two weeks ago, only to withdraw it when, after sobering up, it occurred to me that it was probably too far-fetched to even get approved.

*beard stroke*

Summary ;

*People are bitter about psionics (Which by the way is hilarious, if you understand how psionics are actually played out in the game outside of 'that sekrit order' everyone hates)
*People don't like Tuluk because the culture is too confusing and seemingly limiting
*People don't like Tuluk because there are not many places to twink out skills inside the walls and commit crime easily
*People don't like Tuluk because the player-base is too small to support two city-states
*People don't like Tuluk and/or tattoos because... Um...

I'm being a little extreme in the descriptions but this is where my mind is going reading the other replies.

I suppose i'm the only one that played this game initially because of Tuluk? Rebellion, Kul, Isar, many of those those stories made me love the game. That's where the storyline led me, that's where I wanted to be. Reading through this makes me think that this talk is going to lead to another massive 'game change' which involves my favorite place not existing anymore.

I, too, played for those reasons Aruven. But also the poll numbers don't lie. Most people like playing in Tuluk the way it (now) is.

Quote from: Reiloth on December 04, 2014, 01:42:08 AM
*beard stroke*

And people keep saying the "new templarate" in Tuluk is receptive to all sorts of "new arrangements" NUDGE NUDGE

Quote from: Reiloth on December 04, 2014, 02:07:02 AM
I, too, played for those reasons Aruven. But also the poll numbers don't lie. Most people like playing in Tuluk the way it (now) is.

Uh... well cool then. I was more getting the vibe people hate tuluk and nobody ever plays there apparently, and would rather just see it gone forever to consolidate players in places they like better.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on December 03, 2014, 08:39:23 PM[Allanaki] nobles are pretty simple to understand. You know what a Fale is going to an inappropriate party noble. A Borsail is a cruel slaver. An Oash is a creepy fuck with gemmers. A Tor used to be a stuffy soldier. Tulukis nobles are just too ..nuanced?

Tuluki noble Houses aren't as complicated as you might think. They're a little more condensed with the changes, from what I can tell, but it still seems pretty straight forward:

Kassigarh: Finance, lending, loans. Hires thugs and shadow artists a lot.
Dasari: Plants, poisons, medicines, surgery. Home to the mad scientists.
Winrothol: Slaves. Mounts (thanks Uaptal). More recent focus on sponsoring the arts.
Tenneshi: Buildings! Water and natural resource management (thanks Uaptal).
Lyksae: Military stuff. Comparable to Allanak's Tor.

They got rid of a couple (Negean, comparable to Sath, and Uaptal, comparable to that one templar by the pile of shit in Allanak). I think the biggest difference is generally that Tuluki nobles are a lot more approachable then southern ones (thanks Rebellion).

QuoteA bard is not a bard. People see a bard in Allanak and think I may be entertained. A Tuluki bard has six different kinds with many not focusing on entertaining at all. Just too complicated.

There's a lot of bard groups, yeah. There's actually more bard groups then there are noble Houses now! Weird. And I could be wrong here, but I think the role of every bard is designed with an entertaining and engaging focus in mind. Here's an overview:

Irofel: All about the lore and history. Performance focus primary on songs and stories.
Groot: All about drums, tribes, and blades. Not merely focused on performance, Groots excel at kicking ass. Performance focus on instrumentals.
Konviewedu: All about plays. Plays, plays, plays! Also songs and stories, sometimes, I guess.
Elkinhym: Jokes! Pranks! Mockery! They like acting and songs and stories... But mostly in regards to jokes.
Rusarla: Non-humans go here. Focus on unusual, non-human instruments. Music and stories are the name of the game.
Driamusek: Etiquette, diplomacy, teaching small noble children who have busy parents. Performance focus on stories or speeches.

That does seem complicated, doesn't it? I mean, what if a Groot wanted to play a joke on someone? What if a Driamusek wanted to sing a song? Do I really have to hunt down a Konviwedu to find me a good play? The answer is that... Any bard can play a joke, any bard can sing a song, any bard can do a play. You just have to find the right PC for it.

Quote[In Allanak] you know where you stand. You are trash if you are and elf or a breed. You don't need to pull out a caste chart to know if you can insult someone.

Allanak just has an invisible, subtle chart. Tuluk's chart is just documented. In Allanak, if that random elf happens to be Jaxa Pah, then you could have a lot more problems. In Allanak, if that rinthi scum you spit on happens to be in a noble's pocket, you're screwed. Tuluk just takes that concept and formalizes it more, but the principle is the same. Don't focus on the chart so much as understanding the power connections, because in that end, that's what counts.

Quote[In Allanak] you get to participate in murdering people. The templars aren't all knowing and have to figure out that you did it the hard way. In Tuluk if you are a foreigner, even one allowed to be there, you can't use Shadow Artists directly afaik.

I've already said my thoughts on that (I like the idea of legalized crime, but I'm not sure it's accomplishing what it should). I don't know on the foreigner bit, myself.

QuoteAllanak has real corruption. I've done all kinds of stuff in Allanak as a Tuluki as long as I made myself useful to Templars. You don't need to be so 'subtle' about bribes.

Yeah, Allanak's templars reek of corruption. It's part of their character and charm. In Tuluk, the templars reek of...faithfulness. I don't think that's documentation that they have to be that way, but I do think it's ingrained in the player culture. Having a northern templar act as overtly as a southern one would seem disturbing to me, and I love southern templars. I don't know if Tuluk's feel in that regard will be changing with all the stuff that happened or not.

QuoteAllanak gives you an outline and you have room to flesh yourself out in interesting ways. Tuluk forces you to fit into an uncomfortable box. Tuluk is all about keeping people out in my opinion.

I can see where you're coming from there. I'm not sure if it's actually as bad as it is perceived to be or not.

Mind you, Tuluk definitely has the exclusive "citizens only" vibe going on and when I've played there, I've felt like certain cliques know more information and it's easy to be left out. On the other hand, part of this is probably the lower player numbers. If you think about Allanak, there's a lot of that happening too. Someone in the AoD isn't going to talk about sensitive info. That Fale Whatsit may not involve you in their plot as a random someone.

I do think that having too much knowledge of what people are doing makes it harder for plots to happen, which is an issue in Tuluk. I do not know how much this has changed. I feel like in Allanak, it does feel like you can get away with a lot more.

I kind of like being forced into an uncomfortable box.

And I am a bit elitist...

Maybe Tuluk is the niche for me.

Guys, I cannot say this any more from the heart than what I'm saying right here and now:

Try Tuluk. Give it a good shot. Play whatever you want, and play it to the hilt. You think Tuluk is so much different than Allanak, and it's not. The overt nature is different, and yet it is still very much as brutal as you would expect out of Allanak. The internal nature? In my opinion? Allanak is boring in comparison.

Half the things I see people complaining about are non-issues. Play a worthless pickpocket - see if your local templar cares. (obviously don't pickpocket people of note, though.)
Get thrown in jail? Try to bribe your way out.
Want to play a rubbish claygrebber? Come and insult every little foppish twat that tries to interrupt that drink you just spent all day earning.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on December 03, 2014, 08:39:23 PM
Why Allanak is better in my opinion:

• Inclusive:

        Any tribal, Luirsman, or Stormer can easily pretend to be from Allanak after picking up the accent.(Except to the Nenyuks who control the apartments?)
        That immediately adds to the amount of players who eventually have Allanak as an option to play from.
        Tuluk? Not so much. Tattoos were a bad game design decision. Too hard to fake unless you're a staff sponsored role.

I'll give you that. It's hard to fake being a Tulukie unless you... Wear gloves and a necklace? If you're trying to fake being from any one city, even Allanak, you probably wont get far if you're talking to the nobility or Templarate.

Quote

• Quality over Quantity:
  
          There aren't numerous docs over complicating everything.
         
  
         
  • The nobles are pretty simple to understand. You know what a Fale is going to an inappropriate party noble. A Borsail is a cruel slaver. An Oash is a creepy fuck with gemmers. A Tor used to be a stuffy soldier. Tulukis nobles are just too ..nuanced?

I beg to differ. Winrothol are cruel slavers, and are more than happy to enslave your sorry ass. Dasari are mad scientists who are just as likely to give you a new disease than cure you of an old one. Kassigarh are shrewd bankers who want to steal all your money. Lyksae are tribal warriors who want to spread the glory of the Sun King through bloodshed. Tenneshi are builders and architects who want to... Well, build stuff.

Yes, not every house is a direct mimic of the southern houses, but they all have places in society that are just as clear.

Quote
       

• A bard is not a bard. People see a bard in Allanak and think I may be entertained. A Tuluki bard has six different kinds with many not focusing on entertaining at all. Just too complicated.

Reread the Circle Bard documents. Sure, some of them might be assassins, but what's wrong with that? The Circle Bards -are- about performing and making shows. They are more structured than any old barwench you'll find in Allanak, but they serve a similar purpose.

       

Quote

• You know where you stand. You are trash if you are and elf or a breed. You don't need to pull out a caste chart to know if you can insult someone.

I can assure you that you''re just as much trash in Tuluk if you're an elf or a breed. You don't need to pull out a caste chart to see where you're at in either city - if you're talking to an aide of a templar, you're going to be nice to them or chance the wrath of their masters in -both- cities. If you're talking to a breed or elf in either city, they're at the same playing level. There's really not any difference what so ever. In fact, Allanak has a caste chart of it's own that I'm sure Nyr can post if he gets his Nyr-foo on.

       

Quote

• You get to participate in murdering people. The templars aren't all knowing and have to figure out that you did it the hard way. In Tuluk if you are a foreigner, even one allowed to be there, you can't use Shadow Artists directly afaik.

Try doing this in Tuluk. Sure, as a foreigner you might not be able to use the Shadow Artist system to its fullest, but you can still murder people just as well as you can in Allanak. Go to Tuluk, play a citizen, and murder to your heart's content.

       

Quote

• Allanak has real corruption. I've done all kinds of stuff in Allanak as a Tuluki as long as I made myself useful to Templars. You don't need to be so 'subtle' about bribes.

Try it. Seriously, just give it a try. I'm not saying you're going to be handed everything on a silver platter, but it's -definitely- possible. Also: I don't know where this 'subtle about bribes' part is coming from - it's simply not true. Try offering your local Faithful a few hundred coins to keep him from killing you. Why would they want to stain their pretty dress when they could be out tregil hugging?

QuoteAllanak gives you an outline and you have room to flesh yourself out in interesting ways. Tuluk forces you to fit into an uncomfortable box. Tuluk is all about keeping people out in my opinion.

It really, really, really doesn't force you to play in a tiny box. Try bringing that next role you had planned for Allanak to Tuluk. Modify it so it's a Tulukie citizen. Play it exactly the same. You -will- have fun. I promise you that.

Quote from: Aruven on December 04, 2014, 02:00:24 AM
Reading through this makes me think that this talk is going to lead to another massive 'game change' which involves my favorite place not existing anymore.

At this juncture, contrary what some people might want you to think, I think this is probably mostly contingent on not only the actions of characters but also the actions of players on both sides of the fence.

If Nak were to make a legitimate push against Tuluk and if said attempt were supported by grunt players, leadership players, and staff, while let's say that, hypothetically, Tuluki PCs do nothing/players simply elect to not play there, then I would be disappointed if, say, the Nakis were brickwalled/ignored by staff in their attempts.  I think the message has been that conflict will be facilitated if there is interest, and personally, I hope it interests others because it seems fun and interests me, heh.

So Nak is more entrenched, with some long lived warrior characters and probably a gemmed mage or five?  Probably a legit concern, but you know, I have seen some of you and how you're able to get characters beefed up in short order, so I think catching up isn't totally out of the question.

Let's look at the T'zai Byn of last Winter/Spring, when that clan absolutely exploded with players, resulting in so much fucking fun that I felt like a total noob again. In just a few months, that clan rose up as a serious powerhouse and had their coded prowess tested in very murderous, evil, terribly conniving ways, only to genuinely kick some ass despite being codedly "new."  So many of those characters were less than three IC years old but still managed to be codedly formidable.

I think Tuluk is probably capable of that, but then again it's really hard to predict the future when humans are part of the equation.  Still, having played in a time where it harbored strong clans, well, it makes me feel confident that such could be the case again if people decided that they /wanted/ to make it happen.

Didn't Lyskae ditch their military focus for basket-weaving or something

Quote from: BadSkeelz on December 04, 2014, 02:32:49 AM
Didn't Lyskae ditch their military focus for basket-weaving or something

I don't know, but if I recall correctly, they were in large part slave guys, right?  So policy fucks that all up.

Also, the cap on noble houses would (for me) be really limiting for someone wanting to use a clan as a vehicle to juice up activity in Tuluk.

I think the best options for this would be military clans without strictly imposed population caps, like the Byn or the Utep Sun Clan.  I would personally lean toward the Utep Sun clan at this time because, HRPTs/citystate vs. citystate conflict.


You're going to get more players to stick around if they log in and have something to do/someone to play with, and with a large combat clan, there's a chance that at least one other guy will be in the sparring area when you log in. In the Byn during the Spring, there could be as many as half a dozen people on at midnight... And this was a regular thing. I could log in at 4 am and there was probably someone there waiting to spar me. It was great. It was really really fun. And i think it could totally be replicated NOT ONLY in Tuluk, but basically anywhere in the entire effing game as long as there was a sparring area and other people to at with.

Look at the number of Kuraci in Luir's. It's a strong clan right now. Yes, Kurac is badass and attracts players by default, but what really hella anchor players there is the fact that they have a generally cool mission AND a place/reason to hone their combat skills AND other players to practice with.

I think any clan/area could be successful if there was interest and a way to codedly facilitate this interest in the form of a combat oriented and  reasonably accessible (has more than one recruiter who plays regularly and isn't hugely uptight about how it recruits, within reason) clan.

Also, was who c" removed for the militia clans?  I think I remember reading that it was but haven't played a militia dude in like five years or something.

Quote from: Kronibas on December 04, 2014, 02:30:35 AM

Quote from: Aruven on December 04, 2014, 02:00:24 AM
Reading through this makes me think that this talk is going to lead to another massive 'game change' which involves my favorite place not existing anymore.

At this juncture, contrary what some people might want you to think, I think this is probably mostly contingent on not only the actions of characters but also the actions of players on both sides of the fence.

If Nak were to make a legitimate push against Tuluk and if said attempt were supported by grunt players, leadership players, and staff, while let's say that, hypothetically, Tuluki PCs do nothing/players simply elect to not play there, then I would be disappointed if, say, the Nakis were brickwalled/ignored by staff in their attempts.  I think the message has been that conflict will be facilitated if there is interest, and personally, I hope it interests others because it seems fun and interests me, heh.

What you are saying has merit. I can say that you don't know what northern players want or what they intend. And also, what the staff facilitate and what they don't. I have some reservations as to what staff allow to be seen as viable options and what are not, but that's really all I can say.

Yeah, I haven't played in Tuluk regularly in a long time, admittedly, so theorizing about whatever current things makes me feel like some washed out old football player turned commentator, which is a little weak.

But when I see people bummed about Tuluk, I remember that I have had some really good times there, and I remember times when strong clans did their thing in the area... And that's worth sharing.

I guess the moral of the story is that the situation isn't as terrible as a lot of people make it out to be. At least, it always hasn't been that terrible, and if there is this chorus of people who say they have been stifled for this or that reason in Tuluk, then maybe there is some merit to those complaints and stuff should be changed in the way Tuluk is governed. But from the outside looking in, it seems that the staff have already tried to address the concerns of some players, resulting in an unheard-of overhaul to something as fundamental to the city/docs/wholeshebang as the entire templarate/way of governance.


I would say that kind of change is a genuine attempt at assuaging the concerns of the playerbase.

Then, when the staff actually does some sweeping shit as a result (I imagine) of legitimate player concerns, people just start clowning on the new uniforms. I mean, some people's kids, right?  Heh.

Well, all of this talk about Tuluk has been, for me at least, a good meditation.  In the end what it makes me want to do is play a Tuluki, something I haven't taken a legitimate stab at since last year.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on December 03, 2014, 07:45:27 PM
Tuluk is not for me. I've tried it. I've played there for long periods of time, even recently. There's not enough interaction for a player like me and I regularly play in places like the 'rinth where you seldom see people. The difference is in a place like the 'Rinth or Storm, there's an easy excuse to go to Allanak and interact with people. It can make perfect IC sense.

Tuluk feels completely disconnected from the game to me. It feels like you have to be in a powerful clan, or important house for there to be any chance of being a part of a plot. You can't just be Joe-blow cotton-picker/Kryl hunter and find enough daily interaction for that to be pleasing.

What I find amusing is this poll, where you'd think the vast majority of people are perfectly okay with playing in Tuluk. Well, that's a flat-out lie. I've been there. If all you people were willing to play it wouldn't feel like it's freaking empty. But even more than that, if you all DID start playing there, I feel like that would take too many players away from the places I do enjoy playing.

I'd be perfectly okay if Tuluk was wiped from the game completely. I understand that other people enjoy its nuances but if they're already basically not playing this game with me, I probably wouldn't at all mind if they were gone.

I did not lie. I explained my vote above. I suspect several others voted like me AND voted for Allanak in the related poll about first choice for city.

Anyway, I feel like this whole argument has been made a hundred times on the GDB. nobody has any good ideas for fixing it. Plety of criticisms and yes, some accurate observations. Destroying it entirely is just retconning at an extreme. At the very least, Allanak needs Tuluk as a competitor. I wouldn't mind if Tuluk got even scarier, but it already has soldiers who huff spice like crazed fanatical j**adists, but it could get more interesting if for example Allanak needed it once again similar to the refugee events of yore that nobody has seen but which could still re-occur due to continuing ecological issues.

Agreed about kryl and such in terms of "old." The grey forest should be a very malleable area where new species take domination constantly. That is more primal and interesting. If a race of semi intelligent reptiles found a way and means to carve a niche out of kryl territory, using say incredible resilience and poison resistance that makes dwarves look like elven decrepits then that would be cool for both new race and primary point of human contact = Tuluk. I have also made ideas in game with totally different concepts and really if tuluk were just removed it would delete an incredible playing piece for our staff to do cool stuff with.

Allanak feels like Mos Eisley.  Tuluk feels like Coruscant.  

Coruscant is cool...but on any given day, Mos Eisley is probably going to be a lot more exciting.

I like what Harmless is putting out.

Kryl as a playable race would be hilariously fun.

Just shut down Tuluk and make kryl the only race option for Gol Krathu... Hilarity ensues.

Tuluk seems to have had an ongoing identity crisis ever since the Rebellion where no two people can agree on what exactly it is to be Tuluki long enough before one decides something needs fixed/changed. Tuluk tries to be diversified and do everything while desperately avoiding being anything Allanaki, Tuluk ends up being mediocre and complicated. Tuluk takes itself too seriously while Allanak could care less.

If people stopped trying to fix Tuluk, it might stop being broken.

I find Tuluk doesn't really try to be 'not Allanak'. It just isn't Allanak.

New York isn't Los Angeles. And everyone living in either city complains about the other place and why it sucks.

Consider that ever since the Allanaki occupation of the Northlands that Tuluk has made an effort to distance and set itself apart from the "Southern brutality" of Allanak, making a continued effort to expound upon and accentuate their differences.  This is apparent from even before the Rebellion just by looking at the City-states imagery.  To me it would seem  to be designed this way. There is The Dragon vs. The Sun King. Allanak's colors green and black. Tuluk uses the opposite colors, red and white. Consider: his shadow/his light, the ivory city or pit/the black city or pit.) While they are both cities with many similarities, it's difficult for me not to see Tuluk and Allanak as diametrically opposed in many ways, not just with their IC images but also philosophies. For example magick.

I dunno. It seems organic to me.

Tuluk is conquered by opposing city state. It attempts to distance itself from its occupiers. It maintains a 'difference' in its culture from its occupiers, in an attempt to become its own entity.

Sounds like every conquered 'people' since the beginning of time. To varying success of course, but it makes sense Tuluk wouldn't want anything to (overtly) do with Magick, or anything Allanaki (besides its dumb currency).

Quote from: Molten Heart on December 04, 2014, 03:38:20 AM

If people stopped trying to fix Tuluk, it might stop being broken.

Disagree. I have been playing tuluk on and off since 2008. I have always seen it called broken or too complex. I have played Tulukis when changes or "fixes" were ongoing. I was there ICly during the Hlum retcon event, played pre and post flood and many renovations. I have played bards and Akai. The constant change is good. Allanak is static and dependable while Tuluk has many changes but most aren't meant to last. The constant evolution is a good thing. I think even more evolution is what's needed. Maybe the war should start to end for a period of twisted cooperation. I dunno it doesn't matter as long as it continues to evolve. I think staff do a decent job of it, obviously, or else I wouldn't have played 10+ PCs there over the years.

Not even stating the first cataclysm, where Tuluk was destroyed by magicks.

BTW, as to undertuluk, it did not exist so you could twink your criminal skills, Hell, that is easy enough to do anywhere.
It was not so you could have a safe place to wait off a crime flag, that  again is easy enough to do.
It was so the low, nasty, dirty types could have a place to belong, a refuge from the constant snootiness and worse of the higher castes.

And to me, and I think at least a few others, that is a major drawback to Tuluk today.

At least in nak, a rinthi can go home when he gets tired of being picked on, harassed  etc.

Also, though it does not happen a lot, people do move INTO the rinth, and people used to move into undertuluk.

UT should have been fleshed out not taken out. And consider...even if the UT playerbase was small, it, like the rinth still counted as a playerbase for that area. The players that really like that sort of thing were forced to move and they now  play the rinth or maybe even storm to play outcasts, misfits and the like.

My character fought in the rebellion.  If they would of had inks and accents it would of been a worse experience.  Fighting for an ideal was fun. Once they started arbitrarily adding "culture", I turned against it.

I did give it a try. I played a Tuluki who lived RL years but ended up living in Allanak.

I joined the Legions before and tuluki players made it clear there was no room for people without flawless beauty or people who were warrens rough.

I still am there regularly and all the recent changes seem superficial except those further limiting you sitting in the Sanctuary or renting an apartment.

X-D, you don't think the Warrens are in any way a good replacement for UT?  It seems like they were made in an attempt to at least try to be.

Last year was the first time I ever got the steal skill above starting levels, and I did it in Tuluk and not only in the Warrens but pretty much all over the city, and I was able to pretty much get away with lots of crimes codedly without ever even getting arrested and not getting fucked with by PC templars in the slightest, with that character doing absolutely all kinds of stuff to break the law.

The whole thing with night time allowing for greater flexibility is really what made that possible, more than anything.

No, I do not. The warrens is low caste commoners, and of course the crime level might be higher, but it is still Tuluk proper and where most the citizens live.  Does it not have a tattoo checkpoint or two?
It is not some stink hole that  the Templars and others of high caste try to forget exist or maybe even deny it exists. It has homes, and working class people, not small groups of homeless people living in sewers, or where this horrible mutant lives deep in the dark alone away from judging eyes. No, the warrens is not any kind of substitute for UT/rinth.

As to your second point, I did state that bringing up criminal skills is rather easy in the city proper and does not require a rinth/UT.

Yeah, I can definitely see the differences. I think it's probably worth looking at to reopen it, especially if they could tie it into the warrens and maybe even further reaching parts of the city.

I think it would be great if a cavern system existed that spanned the entirety of the known world.  The tunnels in the game currently are great, and I don't think it would be too large of a stretch to link them all together.

As a matter of fact, I remember the story of an old Borsail governor who found a tunnel in Gol Krathu to... Well, it's hilarious but also probably still IC, but it didn't work out for the Lord Governor or his entire entourage, which wasn't insignificant.

But taking those tunnels, Undertuluk, and connecting them with maybe even more tunnels is probably an ambitious project, but it seems like one that might even be pursued ICly.  I mean, crazier things have been accomplished ICly in the last few RL years, just from what I've seen personally in game with my characters' own eyes, which is a very narrow scope that undoubtedly misses troves of other accomplishments.

I feel like a lot of the Tuluk detractors in this thread are applying their ideas of pre-revision Tuluk to the current iteration.

I think, as someone who despised playing in Tuluk prior to these changes, that the only real gripe I have left is the smaller number of PCs currently rolling about. There was a bit of time about two months ago, I think, where it felt like there were a bunch of active PCs with new ones coming in regularly, and it was wonderful.


side note: Someone on the last page mentioned that southern templars have an air of corruption and greed while northern templars come across as faithful and devoted subjects.

I think this is pretty true, on the surface. Look at the history of the Tuluki templarate. How many times have they reached the point of internal conflict that you could almost call it civil war? All those Faithful in silly headdresses are probably scheming and plotting and taking bribes, but they have to present the outward appearance of purity and devotion because unlike Allanak, Muk Utep is very much present. Muk Utep is watching. Muk Utep is listening. And Muk Utep makes a point of showing up and putting people in their place when they fuck up majorly.

It seems pretty clear that no one is in a hurry to built "outward" in Arm and expand the boundaries of the game, which is understandable because those sort of additions tend to be very permanent.

But with building "down" and expanding an already kinda big subterranean network seems like it might not be as risky of an undertaking or as hard of a sale as adding a new zone beyond the edges of the Known World.

I really like the recent love the rinth has received.  Instead of building "out," whoever tending that project built "up," which is genius, and I think with that kind of building philosophy, there is even more room for expansion for the rinth and areas like it.

Armageddon, for those who have played it for a long time, can seem really small, so I don't think the answer is closing down and sealing off even more areas. At the tempo that the game is going, which seems really good, opening old areas seems like a great thing to me. I guess the main problem from the staff's point of view would be in diluting the playerbase, so that's probably where any reluctance from reopening areas that act as "bases" will come from, since it seems player aggregation in primary areas is part of a "plan" to keep interaction/plots/conflict going, because ultimately I think that's what draws in new players and helps keep old ones.

Kronibas, are you sober, because you're making sense.

Not really... I woke up at like 8 pm, mildly hungover, and started drinking these 6.6% craft brews from Bonfire Brewery to chase down my wake up amphetamines, with copious amounts of cannabis and hash oil bowls since then... which hasn't been too long ago.

Which is probably why closing Tuluk and opening kryl for players seemed like a genuinely good idea.

But think about it, kryl pretty much would already have their own classes set up. You have to be stoned for things like that to seem like a good move, but I don't think that's a bad thing... Carl Sagan genuinely believed that cannabis use heightened his ability to appreciate art. He also said he smoked it almost every day. Now, if Armageddon is art, which I think it is, and this incredibly insightful cosmologist claimed that helped him appreciate art, then maybe it's not that big of a stretch to claim that marijuana use would facilitate and enhance playing Armageddon for some people.

;D

Keep doing what you do, boyo.

OK no wait you are actually stoned.

Quote from: Patuk on December 03, 2014, 04:20:38 PM
My main issue with 'subtlety' is that, as effected by the people there, what I see is more that people will end up talking about events and goings on even less than they otherwise would. Whenyou combine 'Tuluki value subtlety' and 'the templarate is wstching you be quiet,' what you end up is a large amount of interaction happening behind closed doors rather than in public areas, and 'outsiders' to the game's social climate being completely left in the dark of what is going on by sheer virtue of not knowing the ins and outs of city policy.

So the problems you have with subtlety are exactly the problems we sought to address and eradicate.  What you are describing isn't subtlety, it is elitist roleplay.

Here's the lengthy post.

OK, sure.  I went back through every instance of "subtle" mentioned on the IDB and came up with the original proposals for altering Tuluk, so here's some of that.

QuoteA long time ago in a game that was very different, there was Tuluk.  It was occupied by Allanak eventually, and occupied for years.  The resulting ouster of Allanak led to new documentation for Tuluk, reveling in subtlety and the like.

QuoteMy issue was:  hey, here we are talking about subtlety and an Orwellian Tuluk and we don't have one.  We have people dancing around whatever the issue is and there is never any actual movement on anything.  I figured it would take some time to ease into the way Tuluk should be.  A (now?) obvious alternative is to simply start now.

These were the problems we saw with the subtlety stuff being overdone/interpreted to an extreme.  However, we still saw some value in people wishing to engage in that kind of behavior, provided it was more clear that this had a sinister edge.  Here's one particular discussion after the documentation was implemented--this maybe explains more of what we were seeing and what we wanted to enforce by changes:

Quote from: discussing some "subtle changes" in TulukIf it's not declared, it's crap.  It is more templar and noble-only masturbation about how awesome something is behind the scenes, and more people declaring how things are really happening but not really in the way anyone can notice it unless they are "in the know".  Tuluki subtlety has been overplayed far too much.  That's not to say I am not okay with playing it out in ways where it is appropriate, but it has too long been in the realm of "subtle nudge here" and "subtle nudge there" rather than coming up with legitimately horrible things that have a shiny facade.  If everything is subtle or hard to read, then it makes everything that much less significant.  Right now, the pendulum has swung to as far as it will swing (two noble houses just flat out murdered another house).

Our thoughts on implementation were that it is better to clarify existing documentation and make it have this grey area where people could be more blunt with their subtlety, or just not use that cultural device at all, and leave it up to the player to determine what their PC did with that culture.  In this case we made the decision to change docs while showing what those docs changes meant.  We could have probably done it differently.  The reason for doing it that way was because it seemed like the best idea at the time--change things with IC changes that reinforce the documentation, and players will play their PCs as folks dealing with such a change.

Our biggest problems were with the really lame subtle stuff.  The hoity-toity, not really anything important subtle stuff--two people having a conversation about nothing, and the nothing wasn't even important.  We wanted to show what it could really do, and explain better what was meant by subtlety.  So to underline how "this version" of subtlety was different (and how it tied into an Orwellian / tribal influence), we began throwing more examples out there of how to do it.

In reality, it was more difficult to implement than all that.  My best guess?  It's hard to change from what you're used to, even if you don't like it.

TL;DR, we liked it, but not all of it, so we changed it and went with it

edit:  forgot to finish a sentence in here

Quote from: KankWhisperer on December 03, 2014, 04:49:58 PM
Tulukis are dull. Tuluk is dull. Bards do everything but be entertaining.

Bards are indeed an important part of Tuluk.  They're the grease for a lot of activities there.  It is often a thankless sort of role, almost akin to a sponsored role, because really...you are more than entertainment.  You're a tool for someone, whether you want to be or not.  You are almost expected at RPTs.

However, as you've pointed out (and I'll put it more delicately) -- if bard roles exist, and are active, but at least feel like/seem like they are not as involved as they could be or should be, it has a negative impact.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on December 03, 2014, 10:35:06 PMAgain, the changes to Tuluk are
awesome and were much needed, but why is staff "pushing" players into Tuluk?

Mentioned slightly in the request, but if players want a war and larger conflicts, players need to play on more than just one side.

As I have posted above, maybe the players are done with the war. it has been a few IC years already and it was always more of a cold war. If Tulukis weren't so forced to stay there I bet you'd see a lot more tulukis playing again, particularly merchants to take advantage of certain trade routes. Of course the peace should be iffy but maybe it's time for IC events to change course. It could be started IC by about a dozen different routes. But if "no, cold war is going to be a railroaded concept" then I don't think this war is as interesting to players who will feel like they can't affect it one way or the other.

I've seen some things pick up with regards to the war over the past couple of months. I also don't care whether or not there's a deux ex machina involved or not, or whether I'm part of a staff-plot or not. I just want to be able to RP in something interesting. If the staff can make it interesting, then I'm right on board with it. If someone else can make it interesting, I'm on board with that too. I can try to make things interesting for others, but my "plot-driving skills" for the "big things" aren't nearly as good as some other players. So when it comes to situations like war, I'm one of the people who have to rely on someone else to come up with the major plan - and I'll happily follow along and participate no matter who that someone is.

I'm hearing a lot of changes have been made to Tuluk, and I'm hearing a lot of people expecting the new changes to be used with the old politics. I'm not seeing a lot of people saying "hey - new changes - new politics, maybe we can turn Tuluk into something..NEW." It sounds like that's what the staff is trying to do. I hope it'll garner the attention that it "sounds" like it deserves. I'm definitely tempted to take a shot at a Tuluk-based character again, and I've made a concerted effort to avoid it for a couple of years now.

For example:
Mid level GMH non-citizen employee: Amos
Unaffiliated citizen grebber: Malik

Malik did something to Amos and he wants to hire Shadow Artist to get Malik. Oops Malik is a citizen, you have to get a citizen sponsor to even talk to the Templar about taking out Malik? This is what I mean about over complicating things. So now I need to get citizen to go along with it, completely ruining it if I had wanted to keep things quiet. In the reverse situation in Allanak if Amos was northern he might have to pay more but it wouldn't be an issue in my opinion and definitely not more complicated.

I don't know for sure this is how it works but this is how IC events have made it seem in my personal experience. The system seems to excludes non-citizen GMH from participating, so why should they choose to hang out in Tuluk over elsewhere when its such a hassle to even participate in Tuluk's system. Everything in Tuluk seems to be to focused on Tuluki only, pretty much making visitors unable to participate.

Uneasy armistice/truce, war, cold war, whatever you want to call it or whatever it actually is, we've had varying states of both in the past.  Regardless of whatever declared state of whatever, there has always been conflict between both city states.  Nobles planting spies, merchants passing on information, occasional skirmishes, occasional deniable actions, etc.  We want to promote conflict and interaction, and (based at least on what players have said in the past), war is a desire that many players have had.  We want to facilitate that.  We've said a few times though that it is unsustainable for both players and staff to have constant over-the-top conflict.  (At best, one can expect or desire or aim for smaller actions, player-generated, that occasionally will lead to larger ones.)

As for the poll, it does provide three metrics:  People that want to play there and would, as-is, then people that would only play there if conditions were met, and then people that just don't want to play there at all.  We can discount the last group entirely.

The conditions offered are as follows: 

Add something that was removed years ago (because the staffer that was going to modify it ultimately didn't do it, so we removed it).  We don't have a project to re-add UT.  Rathustra has mentioned here that there are other ideas in mind for modifying Tuluk to have something closer to this.  This takes time and effort, but we do want to do this.

Tone down the automated defenses in Tuluk. When these things were added we mentioned that it would be tweaked over time, especially as we add better code to it and make it smarter.  It has only been active for a few months.  We do have some metrics from it and (again) improving it is intended.  This also takes time and effort, but we do want to do this.

Change other stuff about Tuluk and I'll play there.  This is the most disparate category because it may be different things, but there may be areas here where staff and players can discuss, guide, correct, etc.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on December 04, 2014, 10:21:18 AM
For example:
Mid level GMH non-citizen employee: Amos
Unaffiliated citizen grebber: Malik

Malik did something to Amos and he wants to hire Shadow Artist to get Malik. Oops Malik is a citizen, you have to get a citizen sponsor to even talk to the Templar about taking out Malik? This is what I mean about over complicating things. So now I need to get citizen to go along with it, completely ruining it if I had wanted to keep things quiet. In the reverse situation in Allanak if Amos was northern he might have to pay more but it wouldn't be an issue in my opinion and definitely not more complicated.

I don't know for sure this is how it works but this is how IC events have made it seem in my personal experience. The system seems to excludes non-citizen GMH from participating, so why should they choose to hang out in Tuluk over elsewhere when its such a hassle to even participate in Tuluk's system. Everything in Tuluk seems to be to focused on Tuluki only, pretty much making visitors unable to participate.

You're right, but I think you are the one over-complicating things here.

Amos (this GMH guy) wants to kill Malik?  Talk to a templar and pay a contract out, some shadow artist will handle it.  Done.

Hmm.  It says Tuluki against Tulukis in the doc, but when written, that was more to emphasize that this system applies to Tuluk and it is how they use it.  When in Rome, do as the Romans.  (Or not, it's up to your PC whether you want to operate outside of the "law.")  I think that we can adjust that paragraph to make it more clear that this is just a Tuluki system that applies to Tuluk (rather than a Tuluki system that is exclusive to Tulukis).

Being a non-citizen shouldn't be such a big negative modifier when you are affiliated with some group that has sway in the city.

Some folks have brought up the issue of "subtlety", and Nyr's addressed it from several different angles.

The point is - Tuluk has always been "subtler" than Allanak, which has always tended to be "overt" - or "cruder" as the Tuluki's might call it.

That distinction is a given, and always has been.

YES, the subtleties of Tuluk have been toned down, to allow for more freedom of RP, while at the same time, there are higher levels of subtlety in place too - for those who relish it.

If you're trying to say - make Tuluk more like Allanak - that's never gonna happen.

What we're trying to figure out here is, why folks aren't playing as much in Tuluk NOW, as compared to before.

There have been several major changes to Tuluk in the past few years:
a) Removal of UT.
b) Stricter magickal and psionic defenses.
c) Stricter magickal and psionic auto-detection (ICLY the powers that be in Tuluk are more vigilant now).
d) Addition of the Warrens (greatly expanded).
e) Addition of Shadow Artists.
f) Addition of Tribals.
g) Tattoo checking at certain locations.
h) Shrinking of Tuluk and removal of certain taverns.

Now, in view of these changes - what would need to be "tweaked" to make Tuluk more playable? That (IMO) is the question.

PS - The answer isn't - "make it more like Allanak"..... or "I don't like the subtleties"..... coz those are things that make Tuluk Tuluk, and make Tuluk different from Allanak.

I think people are remembering Undertuluk with 20/20 vision.

It was an interesting place to have in juxtapose with Tuluk -- It actually enhanced the 1984 vision of Tuluk, because a seditious element could survive beneath its surface.

It was a pretty difficult place to play in -- It actually had less resources available than the Labyrinth does, and a much smaller player base. When I played in Undertuluk, you were lucky to have 1 or 2 other people playing actively inside it. Otherwise, you had to go to the surface for interaction, much like people in the Labyrinth go Southside to find a glimmer of interaction.

It was a very ISO area to play in, especially if you were a nasty little Magicker or Psion or what have you, and couldn't go topside.

I think with some tinkering, the Warrens could fulfill the same functions as UT did.

-Some expansion of the Warrens, either up, or down, to add dimension to their alleys.
-Some lawlessness -- I think this is already the case, as I haven't seen as many soldiers around there in recent months. But another zone, so crimcode doesn't kick in, either above or below the surface.
-Not another tavern. The Tembo's Tooth already serves as a good meet and greet for the gritty types.
-I'm sure Staff already has plans for the Warrens and has been implementing them, over time, so I don't really have more to add.

Disclaimer: My personal experience with Tuluk has included various roles over the years, including nobility, the bardic circle, and non-citizen GMH residents. I used to be a major fanboy of Tuluk, preferring the nuance and artistic culture of that city-state over all others. I haven't played there since its revamp, by choice.

I had the opportunity to explore U.T. while it was still accessible, and I can see why it's missed by some. I also fully understand why it was removed. Much like other half-finished areas of the game, it needed work to really become a valuable asset to the game. As it stood it offered some opportunities that players (myself included) enjoyed, but it also promised an experience it couldn't really deliver on in its current state. Reiloth and others covered this somewhat so I won't elaborate. I do feel it's something that would make a valuable addition to the area though and bring some balance that would attract players. It doesn't really matter what it's called, as long as it provides the same opportunities U.T. promised on and only partly delivered. If our current staff size and motivation level holds, I'd hope it's a project someone will pick up. Nyr and Rathustra have stated such plans might exist, so we'll see.

If someone were to ask what drove me away from Tuluk personally, I'd have to say it was the Lirathan Order followed by the new vision for the area. The former I've always had an issue with, for reasons most of us know and can't really discuss. And while the Lirathan Order is now gone... Ahem. Anyway. The later, the shift of vision, isn't something I feel staff was wrong to implement. It's just something I personally didn't enjoy as implemented. However I do think there's room for improvement, always. On which point...

What I think Tuluk is missing is balance, and others have touched on this in the thread as well. I think the Orwellian vision of Tuluk, along with all its stifling restrictions, could work if there was a bigger payoff to balance it. Right now it doesn't feel like that balance is there, at least to me. I think the cultural contrast between North and South has been fleshed out at length over the years and the latest changes serve to assist it even more, but culture alone doesn't do it. Especially when it largely stands on documentation.

The elimination of everything non-mundane in Tuluk doesn't seem to have anything to show for it. I'd like to see a greater emphasis placed on technological advancement in the North, as a result of non-reliance on magick. One or two others stated this as well.  I would even go as far as to say psionic roles could be culturally accepted in an open fashion, like the southern gemmed are, placing a clear emphasis on the mind vs magick dichotomy. It's out there, I know, but it makes some sense as well. In fact I'd say this dichotomy was a strong part of Tuluk's past vision, but was implemented in a too elitist fashion. As so many other aspects were back then, to current staff's defense.

I'd like to see the Tuluki mentality shift from a fear and hate of magick, to one of viewing magick as something simply beneath them; something they have no need of, due to superior mental prowess and innovations derived from such. And I'd like to see that across the board, not represented by a handful-at-most only. Perhaps for this to happen the psion class might need to be revisited and fleshed out in a different fashion, to create an equivalent of the elemental and preserver/defiler split magick has. Perhaps a mini-psion class would be needed. Perhaps it'd work as is. But it's worth investigation I feel.

If everything non-mundane is kept out of Tuluk, including psionics, then I think advancements in other areas are needed even more. I feel the game could survive if Tuluk pushed itself even a single step up in the evolutionary technological advancement ladder. Some of objects once labeled as anachronistic for example could possibly be re-visited, like glass manipulation into lenses. Things that might be a touch more useful in coded terms, but would more importantly be clearly northern in origin and by documentation bare a stigma for southerners to use. And likewise if this line of thought was pursued I'd like to see magick become a bit more accepted in Allanak, closer to how it once was. Certain elemental classes should be relied on more actively and openly for their services.

I guess what it comes down to for me is... Right now the north has a ton of hard-coded limitations without sufficient counterpoint advantages, and the south has major hard-coded advantages than they can't utilize in full due to artificially placed limitations. The later, at least partly, implemented to offset the former. While it might do the trick, most of the time it still feels like a hack. Actually valid balance would go a much longer way towards not only player's desire to play in either area, but the game as a whole.

As always, my well-over-two cents.

You know what will make Tuluk better?  More players.

You know what gets more players?

(http://www.topmudsites.com/images/vote_mud.gif) (http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/topmuds/rankem.cgi?id=sanvean)  (http://www.mudconnect.com/images/tmcvote1.gif) (http://www.mudconnect.com/cgi-bin/vote_rank.cgi?mud=Armageddon)

Quote from: Marauder Moe on December 04, 2014, 12:39:54 PM
You know what will make Tuluk better?  More players.

You know what gets more players?

(http://www.topmudsites.com/images/vote_mud.gif) (http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/topmuds/rankem.cgi?id=sanvean)  (http://www.mudconnect.com/images/tmcvote1.gif) (http://www.mudconnect.com/cgi-bin/vote_rank.cgi?mud=Armageddon)

wtf 19? Voted.

What elimination of everything nonmundane in Tuluk?  The Cataclysm was more than a dozen years ago in real life time.  Are you talking about that?

What hard-coded advantages does the south have that they can't utilize due to artificially placed limitations?  What artificially placed limitations?

When is the last time you played a Tuluki?

Quote from: Nyr on December 04, 2014, 07:58:54 AM
What you are describing isn't subtlety, it is elitist roleplay.

That's a great distinction.  I think it happens a lot in Arm, and I just wanted to emphasize the distinction.  (I think a lot of times it is accidental.)

Quote from: Harmless on December 04, 2014, 09:36:15 AM
As I have posted above, maybe the players are done with the war. it has been a few IC years already and it was always more of a cold war. If Tulukis weren't so forced to stay there I bet you'd see a lot more tulukis playing again, particularly merchants to take advantage of certain trade routes. Of course the peace should be iffy but maybe it's time for IC events to change course. It could be started IC by about a dozen different routes. But if "no, cold war is going to be a railroaded concept" then I don't think this war is as interesting to players who will feel like they can't affect it one way or the other.

I think it is safe to say that players are not done with the war and if you want to do interesting things in the war staff are now ready to go along with that.

Happy to answer!

Quote from: Nyr on December 04, 2014, 01:12:34 PMWhat elimination of everything nonmundane in Tuluk?  The Cataclysm was more than a dozen years ago in real life time.  Are you talking about that?

I'm referring to the lack/banishment of magick and psionics. I'm not implying said elimination/limitation was the current administration's doing, even if this was further reinforced by the changes to the city's protection. I'm simply stating that those drawbacks have no valid benefits to balance them.

Quote from: Nyr on December 04, 2014, 01:12:34 PMWhat hard-coded advantages does the south have that they can't utilize due to artificially placed limitations?  What artificially placed limitations?

I said utilize in full. But to answer... Magick, in the form of gemmed elementalists. Which while able to be used for military applications, have very few other uses they can actively fill outside of just existing and perusing character-related goals. The artificially placed limitations being the social stigma and taboo of magick as solutions to problems they could solve, often in an easier/faster/better fashion than mundane solutions could.

Quote from: Nyr on December 04, 2014, 01:12:34 PMWhen is the last time you played a Tuluki?

I touch on that in my disclaimer on the post, but I assume it's a rhetorical question to drive some manner of point. You know, since you can check that easily yourself.

Hope that helps. :)

The biggest problem with Tuluk, I think, is that there's constantly threads imploring us all to play there, for one reason or another, which spawns a big ole long chat about how to make it more fun.

You never see a 'You should play in Allanak because...' thread, because it's just accepted that everyone will play there.

For the record, I tend to play a lot more north-based characters than south (Luirs/Tuluk/human tribals, which I count as north).

Quote from: Ouroboros on December 04, 2014, 01:53:25 PM
Happy to answer!

Quote from: Nyr on December 04, 2014, 01:12:34 PMWhat elimination of everything nonmundane in Tuluk?  The Cataclysm was more than a dozen years ago in real life time.  Are you talking about that?

I'm referring to the lack/banishment of magick and psionics. I'm not implying said elimination/limitation was the current administration's doing, even if this was further reinforced by the changes to the city's protection. I'm simply stating that those drawbacks have no valid benefits to balance them.

Can you be more specific?  You're talking about the lack/banishment of magick and psionics, and I'm asking specifically what lack/banishment of magick/psionics that you are referring to.  The Catacylsm was over a dozen years ago, so if you are referring to it as a major reason you do not play in Tuluk, you're bringing up a much different reason than other players have brought here--essentially saying that things were better before the Cataclysm/before the Occupation/etc because you could play a magicker openly up there with no gem.

What banishment/lack of psionics?  That IS what the templarate does.  That has been the case for many years and it is still the case...it is in the docs...

Quote

Quote from: Nyr on December 04, 2014, 01:12:34 PMWhat hard-coded advantages does the south have that they can't utilize due to artificially placed limitations?  What artificially placed limitations?

I said utilize in full. But to answer... Magick, in the form of gemmed elementalists. Which while able to be used for military applications, have very few other uses they can actively fill outside of just existing and perusing character-related goals. The artificially placed limitations being the social stigma and taboo of magick as solutions to problems they could solve, often in an easier/faster/better fashion than mundane solutions could.

But those are issues you have with Allanak...not Tuluk.  And those aren't really artificially placed limitations.  They are (if I understand you correctly) cultural/documentation limitations that you disagree with.

Quote

Quote from: Nyr on December 04, 2014, 01:12:34 PMWhen is the last time you played a Tuluki?

I touch on that in my disclaimer on the post, but I assume it's a rhetorical question to drive some manner of point. You know, since you can check that easily yourself.

Hope that helps. :)

I don't think you touch on that accurately in your disclaimer, which is why I was hoping you'd give context.

Happy to elaborate then!

Quote from: Nyr on December 04, 2014, 02:05:56 PMCan you be more specific?  You're talking about the lack/banishment of magick and psionics, and I'm asking specifically what lack/banishment of magick/psionics that you are referring to.  The Catacylsm was over a dozen years ago, so if you are referring to it as a major reason you do not play in Tuluk, you're bringing up a much different reason than other players have brought here--essentially saying that things were better before the Cataclysm/before the Occupation/etc because you could play a magicker openly up there with no gem.

Yes, if you're looking to timeline it, the Catacylsm is what I'm referring to. It started then and has been reinforced over the years including recent times. However when it happened, or even the fact it happened, has no real impact on my point. I'm looking at where we stand today and offering my thoughts on how today could be improved tomorrow.

I'm not saying the lack of magick and psionics in Tuluk is a bad thing that should be changed, after a dozen years of being the case. I'm also not saying you or any other staff member did anything wrong in your reinforcing that vision. I'm saying that the combined effects of all the changes over the past decade or so have, today, brought us to a point where Tuluk isn't desirable as an environment for a percent of the player-base. What got us here isn't the point though, what can be done to fix what's in our hands right now is.

Coincidentally, I'm also not saying the above is why I don't play in Tuluk of late. I actually outlined that separately in my post, and you personally know exactly why and when I stopped playing north. My personal issues are smaller than the bigger issue I see with Tuluk though, I just continued to play there despite the bigger issue I could see.

Quote from: Nyr on December 04, 2014, 02:05:56 PMBut those are issues you have with Allanak...not Tuluk.

Those issues tie into the bigger north vs south picture, which you can't ignore when discussing why players play in one area over another. And I stated in my original post that if something was done to address the northern lack of balance, balancing the south as well would feed well into the greater health of the game.

Quote from: Nyr on December 04, 2014, 02:05:56 PMAnd those aren't really artificially placed limitations. They are (if I understand you correctly) cultural/documentation limitations that you disagree with.

Semantics, but... Yes, what I refer to as artificial limitations you're referring to as documentation limitations. I use artificial in context versus hard-coded limitations. Meaning the code is there and accessible, but it's use is controlled artificially by staff oversight and documentation. We can call them documentation limitations if that helps though; it's the effect in question, not the label.

Quote from: Nyr on December 04, 2014, 02:05:56 PMI don't think you touch on that accurately in your disclaimer, which is why I was hoping you'd give context.

I'm not going to dig through my account notes right now, but to answer to the best of my memory... The last time I played an inked Tuluki was a long bloody time ago. The last time I played in Tuluk however, which is the subject of this thread, was what... a year ago? Around the same time the major revisions started happening, which I stated was when I stopped. The last time I was inside Tuluk was a few months ago I think. In the interest of further metrics, half my characters have been northern (citizens or otherwise). Which is about as much as I'm willing to share in a public discussion about something that barely relates to my stated position.

I'll also point out I'm not the only one who's touched on this is a problem. Taven mentioned this first (first page, second to last post), with his proposed solutions more House-centric. Beethoven echoes my sentiments even closer (third page, third post), citing technological advancement in Tuluk to offset Allanak magick, an idea which FantasyWriter supports as well a couple posts later.

A few question of my own, if you'll permit. Besides semantic arguments, do you understand the problem I outline? If not, feel free to keep asking. If so, do you feel it's something worth addressing? If not, is it because you don't see it as a problem or because you don't feel it's the right problem to address? If so, perhaps further discussion could lead to some ideas.

Quote from: Ouroboros on December 04, 2014, 03:14:56 PMI actually outlined that separately in my post, and you personally know exactly why and when I stopped playing north.

I don't, actually.  I mean, I can look at account notes and stuff but that doesn't give me much detail except to see where you played and what it was.

Quote
A few question of my own, if you'll permit. Besides semantic arguments, do you understand the problem I outline? If not, feel free to keep asking. If so, do you feel it's something worth addressing? If not, is it because you don't see it as a problem or because you don't feel it's the right problem to address? If so, perhaps further discussion could lead to some ideas.

I understand your particular issues with it.  I don't agree with them, but I understand better what they are now.

Quote from: Nyr on December 04, 2014, 03:38:41 PMI don't, actually.  I mean, I can look at account notes and stuff but that doesn't give me much detail except to see where you played and what it was.

No worries. It was partly in silent protest to continued existence of the Lirathan Order and the shape of things to come, and partly in needing a break from your oversight in general as per your duties at the time.  You're often the elephant in the room when it comes to discussing Tuluk and the North, I'm sure you realize. All of which is irrelevant to my original post, but perhaps relevant to the discussion. ;)

Quote from: Nyr on December 04, 2014, 03:38:41 PMI understand your particular issues with it.  I don't agree with them, but I understand better what they are now.

Happy to help. I don't mind anyone agreeing or disagreeing, so long as they understand my point. :)

If staff ever feels like discussing the bigger picture internally and how Tuluk as a counterpoint to Allanak might be improved, at least you've some ideas and arguments presented in my original post and the aforementioned posts from others.

EDIT: The simplest way I can put it after some thought is this... Allanak (kinda) has magick. Tuluk has... No magick. That's not balance, that's the presence and absence of the same thing. Basically a scale with only one side loaded. Tuluk could use something on it's side of the scale, that can be measured in more than nuance and roleplay guidelines.

Adding something like the rinth to Tuluk would facilitate something that is quite fun in Nak, namely: cops and robbers fun.  

In fact, in Nak, the nuance is pretty pleasing and not just cops and robbers paint by numbers plots, with a lot of nuances between the Guild and the Templarate and the Arm of His Dragon - a lot of corruption at least, and murder.  City-to-city conflict has always struck me as a bit of a stretch (most of those plots I've been involved with have fizzled and died or just been big ol' RPT battles that - my personal opinion - never really interested me for reasons I could articulate elsewhere) - but internal conflict between factions inside a city have been -really- fun in my experience - they've been player driven, and there's a REAL fear factor involved, but it is balanced enough that the criminals can crime at least a bit, and perhaps more relevant, spying is a real option.

My only worry is that it would empty out the rinth playerbase a bit, and then I'd have nobody to PK with my bone club.

And since a picture's worth a thousand words, here's how some players seem to feel:

(http://i57.tinypic.com/b4gchd.png)

Quote from: nauta on December 04, 2014, 04:03:52 PM
Adding something like the rinth to Tuluk would facilitate something that is quite fun in Nak, namely: cops and robbers fun.  

In fact, in Nak, the nuance is pretty pleasing and not just cops and robbers paint by numbers plots, with a lot of nuances between the Guild and the Templarate and the Arm of His Dragon - a lot of corruption at least, and murder.  City-to-city conflict has always struck me as a bit of a stretch (most of those plots I've been involved with have fizzled and died or just been big ol' RPT battles that - my personal opinion - never really interested me for reasons I could articulate elsewhere) - but internal conflict between factions inside a city have been -really- fun in my experience - they've been player driven, and there's a REAL fear factor involved, but it is balanced enough that the criminals can crime at least a bit, and perhaps more relevant, spying is a real option.

My only worry is that it would empty out the rinth playerbase a bit, and then I'd have nobody to PK with my bone club.

Other than the lack of a lawless zone in which to train your backstab and sap and hideout from soldiers, there is nothing preventing you from doing these things in Tuluk as well.

I'd kinda like to see some current virtual population statistics if that is the case.. The old thing I often quote to bash people with reason are old.

It's good to see the discussion's taking place and ideas on the future are brewing, Rathustra.

But yeah, the bit of irony there is the crux of the problem. Hard to attract manpower to throw at the problem without perks or balancing weapon-power in place. And that's just the problem with the city-state war, before even looking at the broader picture of the game's balance itself.

Rathustra's post got vanished, Tuluki-style.

What post? Move along in His Light, citizen.

Yeah, sorry guys. I decided that it probably wasn't really constructive to blabber about personal ideas or inspirations when the discussion is more about stuff that players can directly have a hand in.

Why was Tuluk successful in the copper war with the same balance of things, and suddenly so outmatched in everyone's eyes now? Just something i've been thinking about. There seems to be an emphasis on... Tuluk's weakness due to lack of magick availability since Allanak has/can employ it - So there's a need for technological superiority.

I think if spice were expanded more and made more balanced, powerful, and with sensible changes that make the downsides less troublesome (i.e., having spice aftereffects tick down when logged out the same as alcohol intoxication), then tuluk would be more attractive. (Here  (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47754.0.html)is the thread i made about this topic). So, add that to Ouroboros' balance beam; that Tuluk has legal spice and Allanak doesn't. The problem is that due to the concerns you will find in my thread that barely anybody uses spice -- except for a few folks and in special situations.

If a spice that made the negative effects of spice addiction were made available only to true-inked citizens, and the powers of Tuluk encouraged their soldiers, hunters, and other denizens to partake freely and use spice to make Tuluk the scary force that it deserves to be recognized as, then there would likely be more action there, because that's a perk, as has been said -- perks are a good thing.

(I can't take credit for the idea of a spice that reduces/removes addiction negatives, that came from the thread I linked. Making it Tuluk exclusive though would be pretty cool -- perhaps Kurac/Tuluk exclusive.)

Or if there was more of that "brave new world" feel of Tuluk -government handed out happy pills that had cool effects (soma), this could also be player-initiated with a funding source.

Anyway, the possibilities of what can be done are endless, and because spice is already legal there and in-game, player-initiated actions can certainly contribute to Tuluk becoming a little more awesome. There are a lot of good ideas in this thread, and I like the ones that can be pursued by players with mastercrafts and a little staff support. If Tuluk were the only way you could get lenses and make a telescope that would be awesome, and I think with enough roleplay and development with the right sources of support (Dasari certainly comes to mind), then this could be done eventually.

Liratheans, staff's ability to point out winners, probably.

Quote from: HavokBlue on December 04, 2014, 05:06:39 PM

Quote from: nauta on December 04, 2014, 04:03:52 PM
Adding something like the rinth to Tuluk would facilitate something that is quite fun in Nak, namely: cops and robbers fun.  

In fact, in Nak, the nuance is pretty pleasing and not just cops and robbers paint by numbers plots, with a lot of nuances between the Guild and the Templarate and the Arm of His Dragon - a lot of corruption at least, and murder.  City-to-city conflict has always struck me as a bit of a stretch (most of those plots I've been involved with have fizzled and died or just been big ol' RPT battles that - my personal opinion - never really interested me for reasons I could articulate elsewhere) - but internal conflict between factions inside a city have been -really- fun in my experience - they've been player driven, and there's a REAL fear factor involved, but it is balanced enough that the criminals can crime at least a bit, and perhaps more relevant, spying is a real option.

My only worry is that it would empty out the rinth playerbase a bit, and then I'd have nobody to PK with my bone club.

Other than the lack of a lawless zone in which to train your backstab and sap and hideout from soldiers, there is nothing preventing you from doing these things in Tuluk as well.

Oh yeah, for sure.  Lawless zones however make the lawless side a lot more dynamic: you get various gangs vying for power, a place to sit around and plot -and- be overheard by the other side (via spies), and, well, ambiance: the place where the freaks, the lame, and the outcasts to congregate, the three-eyed muties, the rogue gicks (maybe not in Tuluk), the sewer stumps, and the cannibals (oh, and elves, because gross).

Quote from: Ouroboros on December 04, 2014, 04:00:52 PM
If staff ever feels like discussing the bigger picture internally and how Tuluk as a counterpoint to Allanak might be improved, at least you've some ideas and arguments presented in my original post and the aforementioned posts from others.

EDIT: The simplest way I can put it after some thought is this... Allanak (kinda) has magick. Tuluk has... No magick. That's not balance, that's the presence and absence of the same thing. Basically a scale with only one side loaded. Tuluk could use something on it's side of the scale, that can be measured in more than nuance and roleplay guidelines.

Part of why I disagree is that you don't really seem to have an understanding of how things actually are (will mention that below).  The reason I don't really care about discussing it is that I'm not sure discussing it really matters.  In a few cases at least, we've got players that have not played a Tuluki in a while, listing things that they want changed before they'll play, and they do not intend to play one until things are the way they want it to be, and that is unlikely to occur at any point in the near future (if at all, as we can't please every player 100%).  That's fine.  We're going to do what we're going to do (we've mentioned that already) and once something is at a point for staff to implement, you will all be the first to know.  :)

The request was a simple one--play a Tuluki and give it a shot, and back up some of these open role calls in the area.  There seems to be a good bit of players that do like it the way it is, so take that for what it's worth--maybe the things you don't like about Tuluk aren't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things, and you could stand to branch out and try something new.  Now, you don't have to, but it's being requested as something to try out. 

It looks as though some players aren't willing to give it a shot until their desires are met.  That may be the actual case (literally unwilling to play unless changes happen) or just an artifact of a poll worded poorly (there's no options for people that are willing to play in Tuluk BUT also want to see some additional changes).  Either way, it is what it is.  We'll keep on doing what we're doing.

As for how things actually are, just as a reminder to everyone, this is actually in the docs.

QuoteThe authority of the Templarate is backed by the Sun King and the abilities of the mind and body that He grants His Faithful servants.

Clarification: that is the current documentation, referring to the current Templarate.

Quote from: Aruven on December 04, 2014, 05:48:22 PM
Why was Tuluk successful in the copper war with the same balance of things, and suddenly so outmatched in everyone's eyes now? Just something i've been thinking about. There seems to be an emphasis on... Tuluk's weakness due to lack of magick availability since Allanak has/can employ it - So there's a need for technological superiority.

Tuluk seems like a loser.  Their omniscient Templars got badly fooled by the tree killers. After the copper wars it was Allanak that established a new permanent base. They couldn't stop Allanak from wrecking gypsies on their doorstep. Allanak expands and established their Ten Serak base afterwards. Even though Kurac barely does any business in Allanak, Tuluk can't get Kurac on their side with Allanak banning spice.

Also people who give Tuluk a stab are welcome to send in reports to us, the Northlands team, and let us know your thoughts and feelings over your experiences. Being able to tie criticisms to seeing people actually playing gives us a lot to work with towards better analysing the state of play in the city.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on December 04, 2014, 06:10:50 PM

Quote from: Aruven on December 04, 2014, 05:48:22 PM
Why was Tuluk successful in the copper war with the same balance of things, and suddenly so outmatched in everyone's eyes now? Just something i've been thinking about. There seems to be an emphasis on... Tuluk's weakness due to lack of magick availability since Allanak has/can employ it - So there's a need for technological superiority.

Tuluk seems like a loser.  Their omniscient Templars got badly fooled by the tree killers. After the copper wars it was Allanak that established a new permanent base. They couldn't stop Allanak from wrecking gypsies on their doorstep. Allanak expands and established their Ten Serak base afterwards. Even though Kurac barely does any business in Allanak, Tuluk can't get Kurac on their side with Allanak banning spice.

Could you imagine if things were reversed? Heck, we write some docs and help-files for the place and we get dumpstered in RAT for being unfairly biased.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on December 04, 2014, 06:10:50 PM

Quote from: Aruven on December 04, 2014, 05:48:22 PM
Why was Tuluk successful in the copper war with the same balance of things, and suddenly so outmatched in everyone's eyes now? Just something i've been thinking about. There seems to be an emphasis on... Tuluk's weakness due to lack of magick availability since Allanak has/can employ it - So there's a need for technological superiority.

Tuluk seems like a loser.  Their omniscient Templars got badly fooled by the tree killers. After the copper wars it was Allanak that established a new permanent base. They couldn't stop Allanak from wrecking gypsies on their doorstep. Allanak expands and established their Ten Serak base afterwards. Even though Kurac barely does any business in Allanak, Tuluk can't get Kurac on their side with Allanak banning spice.

If you look at the history page as a whole, the win/loss ratio between the cities is pretty even. Allanak being a "Winner" is actually something of a recent development. It sounds like they lost the copper war (Tuluk got more ore), they lost the occupation of Tuluk, Luir's, and the mantis Valley (losing forces each time), and only "Won" against Steinal via magick after their regular forces were defeated. Even at the recent HRPT, by most reports the Allanaki forces got the worst of it until the magick (as in, the Serious Staff Animated Magick) came in.

I'm skeptical whether this has anything to do with why people choose to play in Tuluk or Allanak, though. I think that's more due to flavor differences than performance issues.

I "might" play the north again "as is" but I am "likely" to play the north if/when something similar to the Undertuluk is implemented.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on December 04, 2014, 06:15:09 PM

Quote from: KankWhisperer on December 04, 2014, 06:10:50 PM

Quote from: Aruven on December 04, 2014, 05:48:22 PM
Why was Tuluk successful in the copper war with the same balance of things, and suddenly so outmatched in everyone's eyes now? Just something i've been thinking about. There seems to be an emphasis on... Tuluk's weakness due to lack of magick availability since Allanak has/can employ it - So there's a need for technological superiority.

Tuluk seems like a loser.  Their omniscient Templars got badly fooled by the tree killers. After the copper wars it was Allanak that established a new permanent base. They couldn't stop Allanak from wrecking gypsies on their doorstep. Allanak expands and established their Ten Serak base afterwards. Even though Kurac barely does any business in Allanak, Tuluk can't get Kurac on their side with Allanak banning spice.

If you look at the history page as a whole, the win/loss ratio between the cities is pretty even. Allanak being a "Winner" is actually something of a recent development. It sounds like they lost the copper war (Tuluk got more ore), they lost the occupation of Tuluk, Luir's, and the mantis Valley (losing forces each time), and only "Won" against Steinal via magick after their regular forces were defeated. Even at the recent HRPT, by most reports the Allanaki forces got the worst of it until the magick came in.

I'm skeptical whether this has anything to do with why people choose to play in Tuluk or Allanak, though. I think that's more due to flavor differences than performance issues.

They were asking about perception of weakness. In my mind they expanded territory after copper war.  They expanded after the volcano bomb. Tuluk didn't. They only lost Luir's because someone whipped out the anti-magic box.

I suppose I will go ahead and throw in my 2 cents for what its worth.

I have had a chance to play in Tuluk with a Tuluki not only before the changes but I have also had some playtime during and after the changes have occurred. I would still play in Tuluk as it is but I am in a character I am too involved in to change for just anything.

I will start off with why I feel the playerbase as a whole around Tuluk and not just Tuluki citzens has decreased.
After the changes the entire game world has had an added Racism in certain places and yet Tuluk has taken it a whole step further by basically restricting most of the city and most of the "usual" hangouts that most of the Tuluk players would interact and spend their tavern sitting time. Cutting Tuluk down to size in my opinion was a great move because it was just too big without reason though the restriction made it that much smaller. As a non-citizen there is no real want to spend time in Tuluk because of this which causes most of the tribals and otherwise to hang out in Allanak more than what was in the past. What if Nak were to suddenly start doing a check to not let a single person with a tattoo in? The difference in how long it takes you to get to the other gate of Allanak to enter is massively different than getting to the opposite entrance to Tuluk.

Changes I really like that have happened:
Adding the Tribal usage back into Tuluk was a great step and added more playability.
Adding the Shadow Artist System has been my favorite addition because it really does show off a LOT of skill and the subtly of it is fantastic. You may never look at any citizen the same way again. I would love to see this grow.
Adding the magic defense system was a great addition.
Adding a bit more of a grittiness to Tuluk recently because lets be honest, were not all highborn.

Changes I would like to see:
I used to enjoy Under Tuluk and was a pretty big draw for me to begin with and made Tuluk more interesting. I would like to see this or something like it added back.
I would like to see less restriction on the area's inside and to different areas to pull more outside playability back into Tuluk. If your from Tuluk you can hide your way in and around Nak but not reverse. I still think its a good addition in some places but right now it feels like it is just too much.
I would like to see either changes on the outside of Nak to reflect closer to actual size like Tuluk or change Tuluk outside to reflect more like Nak does. (I know this takes a lot of effort on other side however.)
As much as we have steered away from player slavery I would love to see the Lyskae Warriors back in action.
Get the Houses able to hire their own soldier types like Tor, Winrothol and and the like as that was a major draw as well.
Some kind of technology or even the implement of some sort of Psionic gemmed or something would be fantastic.

The variation between Tuluk and Allanak has always been seemingly Tuluki tactics of being cunning, clever and subtle compared to Allanak's brutal, power hungry, forceful. (Pretty much Jedi VS Sith haha)
Both have their own uniqueness and both have different appeal to different players. Tuluk has just seen a much more drastic change than anywhere else and Allanak has not seen much so perhaps players are just going where they feel comfortable since they know what to expect as Tuluk is becoming a whole new beast that has yet to be broken in.

These may be rambled thoughts and I apologize I am a bit worn out.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on December 04, 2014, 06:10:50 PMTheir omniscient Templars got badly fooled by the tree killers.

very related (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47340.msg818034.html#msg818034)
slightly related (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46939.msg802609.html#msg802609)

I don't mind Tuluk being a mundane paradise but it's really hard for a criminal to exist there. UT coming back would be amazing. Just say it drained out. Criminals give the legion something to do in the walls.

I wasn't a huge fan of the Volcano getting moved thing. I mean..it's a  volcano. Deus ex machina stuff doesn't sit so well with me.

Tuluk seems like an alright place to have a  character though, with the addition of a lawless zone it would add so much.

I still hold that you can play a criminal now.

You can play a dirty unlicensed Warrens rat stealing and thieving and whatever.

You can play a licensed artist.

I would even say you can get on the payroll of certain clans and get support for your licensed/unlicensed crime rackets.

Quote from: Nyr on December 04, 2014, 06:07:55 PMPart of why I disagree is that you don't really seem to have an understanding of how things actually are (will mention that below).

Either you forgot to point out why you feel I don't have an understanding of how things are, or I missed your point entirely. From where I'm sitting I do feel I have a pretty good understanding of how things are in the North and what changes have taken place. But I'm willing to admit I don't have a clue if you can actually point out why you think that.

Quote from: Nyr on December 04, 2014, 06:07:55 PMThe reason I don't really care about discussing it is that I'm not sure discussing it really matters.

Ok. That's fine? I wasn't asking you to discuss it here if you didn't feel there was merit to it. I said that if staff feels the need to discuss it in the future, internally, you guys have some ideas here. Clearly it is something that's at least come up on the backend, given Rathustra's thoughts on it. So... Discuss it or not, it really doesn't matter. Everyone here is just offering feedback on how playing in Tuluk can be improved as an experience.

Quote from: Nyr on December 04, 2014, 06:07:55 PMThe request was a simple one...

Yeah. Try the new and improved Tuluk out, we get it. You have several pages of reasons players are telling you why they wouldn't want to and/or how they feel their experience could be improved if they did. Some people aren't willing to play as is, some are willing to but still feel there's room for improvement, and some are groovy about things as they stand. It's not a ransom demand though and you don't need to get defensive about it. You asked us to play there, that's why this thread started. If you don't care for the feedback simply ignore it, as you've kinda stated you intend to. You don't need to call us crazy or unfamiliar with the environment just because we don't feel inclined to play there though. Especially when we're telling you why.

I'd really rather all these suggestions for improvements/additions were added to other areas of the game. Areas that haven't received the same sort of attention that Tuluk has recently. At the end of the day that's up to staff though.

There's an argument to be made. If the player-base can't get behind all the recent additions enough for them to try playing in Tuluk more often, what actually makes you think trying to add and change more stuff will have any effect?

Tuluk was recently MASSIVELY changed. But all I'm hearing is "Give us more, we want more, more more more."

I also would like to see some changes on the criminal side.  In my case, however, this is not driven by the destruction of UT.  It is driven by the changes to licensed crime.  Before the new Shadow Artistry, you could have real crime, that the individual criminal is looking to do, licensed.  Now the crime that is licensed is never that of the real criminal doing the crime.  I can't make my pickpocketing to fill my own belly "legal" anymore, just to carry out the mission of someone else.

This, more than the destruction of UT, changed the nature of "real" crime in Tuluk.  From what I remember of what was posted when Shadow Artistry went live, it didn't seem like this was looked at, although it certainly should have been.  This is more on the social side, I will admit.  My guess is that it is more than possible to codedly be a real criminal.  Its more on what happens when you get caught (then vs now), because eventually this will happen because...there is no real good place to run to, like in Nak.

Quote from: Nyr on December 04, 2014, 06:29:07 PM

Quote from: KankWhisperer on December 04, 2014, 06:10:50 PMTheir omniscient Templars got badly fooled by the tree killers.

very related (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47340.msg818034.html#msg818034)
slightly related (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46939.msg802609.html#msg802609)

Badskeelz mentioned the history Nyr cited here more specifically.

The last HRPT is something i'm not going to talk about, not so much because of the outcome (an outcome can never be predicted.... kind of), but more because certain factions and people were basically powerless, because the staff had something in mind that was going to happen regardless. In my opinion there were a lot of very sensible things that could have been done differently IC and they were not, because the desired game changes OOC could not have gone forward. So now people have this opinion that Tuluk is some sort of giant care bear powerless to defend itself.

I also noticed someone in one of those links convinced the staff that tuluk is too 'safe'. Wtf ? Tuluk is literally surrounded by things that can codedly kill (any day) PCs with relatively little ease. Ask for more diversity. Don't ask for freakier shit.

Quote from: HavokBlue on December 04, 2014, 06:46:23 PM
I still hold that you can play a criminal now.

You can play a dirty unlicensed Warrens rat stealing and thieving and whatever.

You can play a licensed artist.

I would even say you can get on the payroll of certain clans and get support for your licensed/unlicensed crime rackets.

We've both said the same things a couple times now. People don't want to hear that shit.

Quote from: Aruven on December 04, 2014, 02:00:24 AM
Summary ;

*People are bitter about psionics (Which by the way is hilarious, if you understand how psionics are actually played out in the game outside of 'that sekrit order' everyone hates)
*People don't like Tuluk because the culture is too confusing and seemingly limiting
*People don't like Tuluk because there are not many places to twink out skills inside the walls and commit crime easily
*People don't like Tuluk because the player-base is too small to support two city-states
*People don't like Tuluk and/or tattoos because... Um...

I'm being a little extreme in the descriptions but this is where my mind is going reading the other replies.

I suppose i'm the only one that played this game initially because of Tuluk? Rebellion, Kul, Isar, many of those those stories made me love the game. That's where the storyline led me, that's where I wanted to be. Reading through this makes me think that this talk is going to lead to another massive 'game change' which involves my favorite place not existing anymore.

Tuluk has always been my favorite place to play. I stayed with Armageddon because I love Tuluk. I just hate how much of a ghost city it's become lately. I love the rich stories. I love the fact that I've had characters that have been Tuluk citizens during a lot of the most instrumental history of the city. I love the bards... True bards and they did exist and have existed before.

I love the culture. For the players out there talking about how it's too difficult to learn and such and too much documentation... Well culture takes a lot to learn it takes documentation to form or else people would be unaware of what it is. You have culture in your RL family that you have learned over your lifetime, well if you were to write down all the things that your RL family does differently and that makes it YOUR family, I'm sure you'd have pages and a pages and possibly even a book for an outsider to read.

Bards are not just entertainers, if anyone cared to read the documentation they'd understand this. It's sad that people criticize Tuluk and the players that do play there for being original and having a sense enough to personalize their characters and not just follow some silly little script. That's what RP is all about. You follow what your character is. Sure it might not be step for step what the documentation calls for, but it's YOUR character and you are allowed to form that character as richly as YOU want to.

Is there secretness in Tuluk? Yes there is lots and lots of things that are secret and behind the scenes. That's what makes it original and NOT Allanak. Wouldn't it be boring if all places in the game were just like Allanak? For me yeah it would be dull, boring, and unimaginative.

I understand a lot of people feeling restricted by being a citizen and needed tattoos. That is a difficult situation, but it's not something that entirely forces you out of Allanak. There are gloves, there are necklaces and pendants. Just get creative people. You can easily cover up tattoos and if you learn to speak like a southerner and keep away from doing anything that draws attention to yourself you can travel to Allanak just as easily as anyone from Luir's or a tribal could. Personally, I think this was a pretty lame ass excuse for whoever said it. I've had Tuluki citizens go to Allanak on their own and blend in without anyone noticing anything about where they were from.

For everyone whining about how hard it is to learn about Tuluk you need to remember how hard it is to learn about Armageddon in general. Trying to navigate Allanak has always been crazy difficult for me. I've always had problems with understanding how things work in Allanak. I also tend to stay out of Allanak unless I'm forced there either because OOC reasons or because of IC reasons.

After reading what I've typed and what I've read here I think I'm changing my vote. Tuluk is my favorite place to play. I just wish there were more players that could play there. I don't want major overhauls to Tuluk, just a better population. Last time I played there you could sit in a tavern at peak gaming time and over half of the citizens in that tavern would be Faithful or Chosen. That's what needs to be changed as the population of a city isn't mostly rulers in RL. We need more players who want to play citizens in Tuluk.

Quote from: Aruven on December 04, 2014, 07:11:23 PM

Quote from: HavokBlue on December 04, 2014, 06:46:23 PM
I still hold that you can play a criminal now.

You can play a dirty unlicensed Warrens rat stealing and thieving and whatever.

You can play a licensed artist.

I would even say you can get on the payroll of certain clans and get support for your licensed/unlicensed crime rackets.

We've both said the same things a couple times now. People don't want to hear that shit.

I guess I'm just confused when I see things like posts that say you can't play a criminal when that's... entirely not the case...

Theft is illegal in Allanak. Theft is illegal in Tuluk. If you get caught for theft in Allanak, you might be punished. If you get caught for theft in Tuluk, you might be punished. Lord Templar Blueballs might throw you in the arena for not bowing or groveling enough and Faithful Lady Tressy-tress might disappear you for unlicensed theft, but more likely than not, neither of those things are going to happen.

Are you worried you can't find a place to hide out? There are apartments and rooftops in the Warrens. There is a rough bar with curtained booths that the high and mighty rich people (or even halfway respectable people) avoid because the poors and foreigners go there.

Are you worried about the crimcode? Any crime that runs the risk of triggering the crimcode in Tuluk faces the same problem in Allanak. There are ways around it.

Are you worried about not having any sort of coded/clan/political support because the Guild doesn't exist in Tuluk? There are clans that probably have a vested interest in managing and even supporting their local criminals.

Are you worried you aren't being subtle enough? It's been made pretty clear that the old iteration of Tuluki subtlety is not a thing anymore.

Quote from: Reiloth on December 04, 2014, 02:07:02 AM
I, too, played for those reasons Aruven. But also the poll numbers don't lie. Most people like playing in Tuluk the way it (now) is.

I'm really baffled by the pole here vs the pole found on the other topic about favorite place to play. I'm trying to figure out why 27 people here say they'd play in Tuluk regardless of any changes, yet there's only a handful of people that voted that their favorite place to play is in Allanak.

I voted 1 here because I would, and have, play in Tuluk's current form.

I voted Allanak in that poll because I consider it to be way, way, way more fun.

I love Tuluk.  I'd play there all the time if I didn't get bored playing in the same place all the time.

I'd like to hear more reasons for why Tuluk is fun to play in and less reasons for why it sucks. I think part of its problem is it's become a victim of its own reputation of a ghost-town.

Despite my idea earlier, I don't have a problem with Tuluk. I just haven't played a citizen there because I am intimidated by the documentation. I feel like it'd be like starting all over again as a noob, which is kind of exciting, but mostly just scary.

Why is Tuluk fun to play in?

Rich history.
Secretive stuff that is fun to discover.
You don't need to join a clan to get good at skills if you want to play a hunter. There are critters that are easy to take for any new hunter. But as always use caution as there are critters that will kill you quickly if you get too close.
Culture and lots of it. If you've never played there start a character to explore and find out.
With the war people tend to help out other citizens more so there is a sense of comradey. (note this may have changed, it's been almost 6 months since I've played a character in Tuluk)
Not a real sense of fear that you'll accidentally say one thing wrong to a Faithful or Chosen and be dead the next day.
Smaller city than Allanak with the shrkage that happened. For all of you that like to play in clans it doesn't take you a third of the night to travel to a tavern and a third to get back to your barracks for training leaving you 5 minutes to sit there and talk to someone.
Clean - There are trees and grass and stuff.
No constant storms impeding your ability to go hunting.  

Quote from: Ouroboros on December 04, 2014, 06:49:15 PMstuff

the stuff about psionics
i put it at the bottom of the post

Quote from: Beethoven on December 04, 2014, 08:03:03 PM
Despite my idea earlier, I don't have a problem with Tuluk. I just haven't played a citizen there because I am intimidated by the documentation. I feel like it'd be like starting all over again as a noob, which is kind of exciting, but mostly just scary.

I believe I felt this way about Tuluk. Once I tried an "actual" Tuluki I had a blast. You just have to survive long enough to get into a niche. Tuluk has mostly secular RP, in my experience.

I have played a lot in Tuluk, including sponsored roles and a bard.  I was there when the most recent war broke out, through the Hlum thing, and after the revamp. It's fun, interesting and has a lot of opportunity for good RP. 

What Tuluk has going for it:

1. It seems to be a "smarter" place than Allanak. Kind of nerdy in a way.
2. Lot's of opportunity for artist RP.
3. Lot's of Murder Corruption and Betrayal. Both subtle and very in your face.  Don't believe me?  Try playing there.
4. An excellent place to play an Independent hunter (so long as you are inked).  The levies, temporary partisan agreements etc all make this possible.
5. Some well thought out and fun Noble Houses to play in.
5. Excellent lay out, easy to get around in.
6.Spice.

What could make the place better?
1. Up the nerd factor.  Add in science, technology and medicine. The basis for this exists in the current set of Noble Houses.
2. Re do the bards.  Perhaps when the player base was bigger, the current system worked. Now,  it's too cumbersome.
3. Get serious with the silly war already.  Muk should wee or get off his pot.
4. Make the Warrens into a unique and exciting area.  No..don't copy the Rinth or Undertuluk.  Make something new. The wild wild north. A place where a commoner can survive without having to be a thug, yet at the same time a place where anything goes, perhaps even magick in private at least. Think of a Gold Rush town in California.  Or Hell on Wheels.

My ideas at least.

Quote from: Norcal on December 04, 2014, 11:09:53 PMWhat could make the place better?
1. Up the nerd factor.  Add in science, technology and medicine. The basis for this exists in the current set of Noble Houses.
2. Re do the bards.  Perhaps when the player base was bigger, the current system worked. Now,  it's too cumbersome.
3. Get serious with the silly war already.  Muk should wee or get off his pot.
4. Make the Warrens into a unique and exciting area.  No..don't copy the Rinth or Undertuluk.  Make something new. The wild wild north. A place where a commoner can survive without having to be a thug, yet at the same time a place where anything goes, perhaps even magick in private at least. Think of a Gold Rush town in California.  Or Hell on Wheels.

My ideas at least.

I think that accomplishing #1 is completely doable ICly. I get the impression from what staff has said (especially with the older threads that Nyr linked) that #3 is something that is progressing. Making a war doesn't happen in a day and needs PCs to accomplish it. Slowly, the wagon starts to trundle along. I think #4 is something staff would need to take a look at, but with the gritty Tuluki warrens family role-call, it seems like there's an emphasis on gritty and the warrens. I'm not sure what you're suggesting with #2, so maybe you could elaborate?

Ive only had a handful of Pc's so far. Most of them (All of them actually) Have been
Allanaki/ rinthi. After Reading this, all the pros/cons of Tuluk, it does seem a daunting
prospect to start a Tuuki character, and actually get somewhere with it. And I like
challenges! So once My Current PC stops being so death-evasive, and finally kicks the bucket Ill
be Rolling up a Northie, or probably two...as Ill fail miserably to understand the more nuanced
society, and dissapear on my first one :D

Quote from: Taven on December 04, 2014, 11:49:41 PM

Quote from: Norcal on December 04, 2014, 11:09:53 PMWhat could make the place better?
1. Up the nerd factor.  Add in science, technology and medicine. The basis for this exists in the current set of Noble Houses.
2. Re do the bards.  Perhaps when the player base was bigger, the current system worked. Now,  it's too cumbersome.
3. Get serious with the silly war already.  Muk should wee or get off his pot.
4. Make the Warrens into a unique and exciting area.  No..don't copy the Rinth or Undertuluk.  Make something new. The wild wild north. A place where a commoner can survive without having to be a thug, yet at the same time a place where anything goes, perhaps even magick in private at least. Think of a Gold Rush town in California.  Or Hell on Wheels.

My ideas at least.

I think that accomplishing #1 is completely doable ICly. I get the impression from what staff has said (especially with the older threads that Nyr linked) that #3 is something that is progressing. Making a war doesn't happen in a day and needs PCs to accomplish it. Slowly, the wagon starts to trundle along. I think #4 is something staff would need to take a look at, but with the gritty Tuluki warrens family role-call, it seems like there's an emphasis on gritty and the warrens. I'm not sure what you're suggesting with #2, so maybe you could elaborate?

Ok Bards.
1. A bard is a tremendous amount of work.  That is a good thing. Yet I think that since the amount of work that is almost equal with a sponsored role, bards should get more support and the ranks should be easier to progress through. Comparable to a GMH. My experience was limited in time, so this may be off base.
2. There are too many circles. There should be fewer or perhaps some should be closed for a time, or shifted over to Winrothol.
3. If you are going to have lots of circles, shift at least one of them from performing arts to 100% visual or applied art.
4. Bardic traditions are oral, yet I think literature and literacy should be available to bards at some level. This would go along with the whole science and technology thing I spoke about earlier.
5. IC recruiting should be easier and more frequent.
6. Current Bardic culture is complicated and steeped in the Occupation. I am not criticizing it, as much of it is cool. Just revamp it to reflect the New Tuluk and also a much newer playerbase. That would excite players in the game today about plotlines that actually are meaningful to them.
7. Teaching!  Some circles already specialize in a certain type of this. Yet I am thinking that the bards could be like Tor for crafters. A sort of training academy, and when you finish, you are a highly trained individual

I agree with literacy for some bards, but not all. It would make sense as some bards are hired to be tutors to young Chosen.

A more literate high commoner might be an intriguing point of contest I. Tuluk.

Quote from: Norcal
Ok Bards.
1. A bard is a tremendous amount of work.  That is a good thing. Yet I think that since the amount of work that is almost equal with a sponsored role, bards should get more support and the ranks should be easier to progress through. Comparable to a GMH. My experience was limited in time, so this may be off base.

Nothing worth having is easy nor simple. Tuluk is ripe with a great many traditions with some playing heavily upon politics, reputation and a fair amount of knowing how to maneuver through both. It really is not that hard to progress as a bard if you follow the documentation. Some bards in history have progressed quicker than others. To find out the why - look IC or play a bard and find out through the histories provided both by staff and by other players in said clan. Playing a bard is a sponsored role and there is a lot of support via staff which they've put to flesh in revamps done in the past two years towards updating the Circle to be more fleshed out and self-sustaining.

Quote from: Norcal
2. There are too many circles. There should be fewer or perhaps some should be closed for a time, or shifted over to Winrothol.

I think this is where new players to the clan and Tuluk fail to understand what the Circle is about. Each Circle is the Circle. There is no us against them, or higher Circle than the other. It is a community. Each Circle just happens to focus on a different spoke of the wheel, so to speak. There is, though, no reason in which any Circle would be shifted to a Chosen House, Winrothol or any other. The Circle is not owned by any Chosen House.

Quote from: Norcal
3. If you are going to have lots of circles, shift at least one of them from performing arts to 100% visual or applied art.

The Circle is not a GMH. Their blood is performance, not being vending machines for crafts.

Quote from: Norcal
4. Bardic traditions are oral, yet I think literature and literacy should be available to bards at some level. This would go along with the whole science and technology thing I spoke about earlier.

Literacy is not permitted to the Common at the moment. The Circle are all Common. Of course, who knows, maybe its there already, maybe its all IC. Who knows.

Quote from: Norcal
5. IC recruiting should be easier and more frequent.

Nothing worth having is easy and those who show patience, show passion, I bet.

Quote from: Norcal
6. Current Bardic culture is complicated and steeped in the Occupation. I am not criticizing it, as much of it is cool. Just revamp it to reflect the New Tuluk and also a much newer playerbase. That would excite players in the game today about plotlines that actually are meaningful to them.

The Circle was already revamped in the past two years and it grows plenty with plotlines. My motto: if you don't like something - actually play the game, the role, follow the documentation and through IC change the world.

Quote from: Norcal
7. Teaching!  Some circles already specialize in a certain type of this. Yet I am thinking that the bards could be like Tor for crafters. A sort of training academy, and when you finish, you are a highly trained individual

Why would the Circle become an academy for Crafters... that is what GMH are for. If you want that sort of academy, follow the newest means of creating a clan and make one yourself. The Circle is full of bards, not crafters.

First, i'll state what i see allanank as (based on observations) and Tuluk (From experience so far in comparison to my observations of allanak)

Allanak sounds like its fast paced, theres lots of plots and lots of people get involved right then and quick, and thats awesome - that kind of RP can be great, fun and rewarding in its own way.


Where as Tuluk, it's slower paced- there are plots everywhere, but you won't notice right off, they wont be thrown into your face, Tuluk is slower paced then Allanak from what i'm reading about from peoples posts, and comparing it to my experience with Tuluk thus far.

I chose to start in tuluk after reading the documentation and being fascinated by its history, its culture, and caste system.

Tuluki RP doesn't culminate into a big finale very quickly, but it grows on you slowy - it doesn't matter what kind of character you start as, there are opportunities as long as you strive for something - look around, meet people, know people.

It's definitely slow paced, but the bigger moments when they do happen feel spectacular when they do, and there's just a certain satisfaction i personally find in the slower pace, coming from an rp community where its much, much faster paced.

My recommendation if your considering playing in Tuluk? just make a simple, humble character, don't have any grand goals, maybe just trying keep making a living, and see where that can take you, and if you're intimidated by the thought of playing in Tuluk well, I was too, theres a lot to grasp, but! If you've not played in Tuluk before, or havent in a long time and feel intimidated; my suggestion, do it, go outside your comfort zones, see what its like.

As for people saying theres a lack of things like criminals, or crime, and it's impossible? it's hard, but it's not impossible. Want crime? Make a criminal, find opportunities. because they -are- there.

I think I have a tuluki inked concept to play as my next PC that I can make fun as a raider. Kind of a throwaway but if I focus on interaction outside of Tuluk and not sitting in the walls all the time then I should be able to get some good interaction. Because as a player I am neutral to whether I win or lose I would not twink skills but will accept roleplayed sparring as well as hunting/raiding partners. While playing the tuluki I will have either a role app or special app going. I am looking forward to it and I have this thread as inspiration for it.

Quote from: Nyr on December 04, 2014, 08:48:26 PMthe stuff about psionics

Ah. No, that wasn't news to me. It's what I hinted at when I said originally...

Quote from: Ouroboros on December 04, 2014, 12:11:22 PMAnd while the Lirathan Order is now gone... Ahem. Anyway.

Mainly because as per the docs...

Quote from: Nyr on December 04, 2014, 06:07:55 PMThe authority of the Templarate is backed by the Sun King and the abilities of the mind and body that He grants His Faithful servants.

Is really just a rework of the original problem with a new label. For me personally, I mean. Whether it's granted by default or other means of implementation, I feel "abilities of the mind" in the hands of select few without social repercussions are a problem that far too frequently (for my tastes) leads to Deus Ex Machina solutions. Whether you call it Lirathan or not doesn't really change that.

...all of which has absolutely nothing to do with the bigger issue I outlined.

Quote from: Ouroboros on December 05, 2014, 02:39:38 PM
...all of which has absolutely nothing to do with the bigger issue I outlined.

In your opinion.  Which is fine--you don't think that we can (or have) re-balance(d) stuff in Tuluk for templars to remove those kinds of situations, whether by changing skill sets or not--and that's your opinion and you are entitled to believe so.  It's also why I mentioned earlier that I disagree with some of your points.  However, at least we understand each other's positions, and knowing is half the battle.

G.I. Amos!

Quote from: Nyr on December 05, 2014, 02:46:08 PM
...knowing is half the battle.

G.I. Amos!

As my loving wife explained... 

Quote from: Ms.Whitt
... and killing is the other half.

Quote from: Nyr on December 05, 2014, 02:46:08 PMIn your opinion.

It's not my opinion, Nyr. You're taking my personal issues with Tuluk and confusing them with the bigger issues I see with the city. The Lirathan Order was a personal problem for me. Whether that issue was resolved by your changes to my satisfaction or not has nothing to do with everything else I discussed in my original post. That being the fact Tuluk is at a major disadvantage when compared to Allanak, and could be better balanced. Which in turn would make it more attractive to play in, and get more activity there. All of which again has nothing to do with Templars.

I think we should just play there as a change of pace anyway and maybe it'll be awesome regardless of the hearsay. I know I will be. :D

I'm with you Zoan. I'm going to give it a go here whenever I have the need to make my next PC.  As far as balance issues goes, I think a lot of us know it only really takes a few veteran players to shift the Murder balance to be skewed anywhere in the game. We've seen it before.

Quote from: Ouroboros on December 05, 2014, 03:02:14 PM

Quote from: Nyr on December 05, 2014, 02:46:08 PMIn your opinion.

It's not my opinion, Nyr. You're taking my personal issues with Tuluk and confusing them with the bigger issues I see with the city. The Lirathan Order was a personal problem for me. Whether that issue was resolved by your changes to my satisfaction or not has nothing to do with everything else I discussed in my original post. That being the fact Tuluk is at a major disadvantage when compared to Allanak, and could be better balanced. Which in turn would make it more attractive to play in, and get more activity there. All of which again has nothing to do with Templars.

I thought about explaining how it is relevant (templar abilities being a counter to the other city-state) but I recall that generally you do not agree with me and vice versa, usually requiring pages of discussion to find common ground.  I think it'd be best if I just address other comments here instead and thank you for your opinions and for sharing them.  I may disagree, but it's always good to see people that are passionate about the game.  I think that's healthy and great to participate in!

Quote from: Nyr on December 05, 2014, 03:19:17 PM...templar abilities being a counter to the other city-state...

Faithful abilities in the hands of a handful counter Templar abilities in the hands of a handful. There's no equivalent to gemmed in the north. So no, it's not the same thing. Countering that by acceptance of possibly toned down psions outside the Faithful or by a strong focus on technology possibly through House-led initiatives could provide such a counter.

Quote from: Nyr on December 05, 2014, 03:19:17 PMI think it'd be best if I just address other comments here instead and thank you for your opinions and for sharing them.

It'd be great if you tackled some of the other folks mentioning technological advancement throughout this discussion, which you ignored in favor of trying to point out how my opinion is invalid since I first posted.

Quote from: Nyr on December 05, 2014, 03:19:17 PMI may disagree, but it's always good to see people that are passionate about the game.  I think that's healthy and great to participate in!

No arguments there. :)

I think the technological stuff is an interesting thought.

...this has been turned into a 'Tuluk is weaker' discussion because of magick?

You're crazy.

The reason Tuluk is played in less is because for many people, the 'feel' of Allanak is what is Armageddon is.  Tuluk has a different feel.  Not  a worse one, just a different one.  So they don't switch away from the one that 'feels' more genuinely seated to them.  This discussion has been had so many times, and trying to turn this into a 'Tuluk needs moar power' thing is frankly just weird.

People don't like playing in the quasi-communist society for the most part. Or are very poor at it and get frustrated by the "common sense" of such a society.

Quote from: Nyr on December 05, 2014, 03:29:13 PM
I think the technological stuff is an interesting thought.

Oh god, if you make my steampunk armageddon dreams come true in Tuluk, I'm never playing Nak again.

Zalanthas' technology level is much higher than its lack of metal warrants already. I am not a fan of the technology advocates.

For everyone saying 'Tuluk is weak', I ask you to find out IC.

That shit's crazy.

Quote from: bcw81 on December 05, 2014, 03:50:00 PM
For everyone saying 'Tuluk is weak', I ask you to find out IC.

That shit's crazy.

Seriously.  I have no idea how it turned into that when it's been a preference issue for a good, long time.

I'm largely with Armaddict on this one.

Quote from: Armaddict on December 05, 2014, 03:30:08 PM
The reason Tuluk is played in less is because for many people, the 'feel' of Allanak is what is Armageddon is.  Tuluk has a different feel.  Not  a worse one, just a different one.  So they don't switch away from the one that 'feels' more genuinely seated to them.  This discussion has been had so many times, and trying to turn this into a 'Tuluk needs moar power' thing is frankly just weird.

However, I think there might be some other problems for the low population of Tuluk - that it's (allegedly) so easy to survive up there. In Allanak, if you go out on to the desert alone you're taking your life in your hands. I think this encourages people to hang around and interact with each other, to join clans, to work together against the danger of the Environment (and other players). If everyone in Tuluk can just be a successful indie hunter without any need to plug themselves in to a complicated social fabric, they're going to go their own way.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on December 05, 2014, 03:54:38 PM
I'm largely with Armaddict on this one.

Quote from: Armaddict on December 05, 2014, 03:30:08 PM
The reason Tuluk is played in less is because for many people, the 'feel' of Allanak is what is Armageddon is.  Tuluk has a different feel.  Not  a worse one, just a different one.  So they don't switch away from the one that 'feels' more genuinely seated to them.  This discussion has been had so many times, and trying to turn this into a 'Tuluk needs moar power' thing is frankly just weird.

However, I think there might be some other problems for the low population of Tuluk - that it's (allegedly) so easy to survive up there. In Allanak, if you go out on to the desert alone you're taking your life in your hands. I think this encourages people to hang around and interact with each other, to join clans, to work together against the danger of the Environment (and other players). If everyone in Tuluk can just be a successful indie hunter without any need to plug themselves in to a complicated social fabric, they're going to go their own way.

Valid.

I'm not sure I agree, especially with recent additions to the south.

North has things that can reel-lock and kill you instantly. Has thing that can poison you in a variety of crazy ways. I could make a case for the north's wilderness being more dangerous, but in reality it's all in what you know. If you know what is dangerous then you can prepare for it, or avoid those dangers.

It's just as easy to be an indie hunter in the south as it is the north these days. Which is to say it can be hard as fuck if you don't know to avoid Mekillots.

I once played a 'great mind' merchant from Red Storm, who due to the nature of the world was wasted potential. They could have changed the world with their theories on engineering.

I didn't give much to it, but maybe if anyone were to play a character, and form their own family through hard sweat, and eventually have the funding and backing to invent the world's first trebuchet...

Quote from: Zoan on December 05, 2014, 04:14:02 PM
I once played a 'great mind' merchant from Red Storm, who due to the nature of the world was wasted potential. They could have changed the world with their theories on engineering.

I didn't give much to it, but maybe if anyone were to play a character, and form their own family through hard sweat, and eventually have the funding and backing to invent the world's first trebuchet...

Tried to have Tor do siege engines and war machines.  Spent lots of money.  Wrote books about it. Failed.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on December 05, 2014, 04:11:13 PM
I'm not sure I agree, especially with recent additions to the south.

North has things that can reel-lock and kill you instantly. Has thing that can poison you in a variety of crazy ways. I could make a case for the north's wilderness being more dangerous, but in reality it's all in what you know. If you know what is dangerous then you can prepare for it, or avoid those dangers.

It's just as easy to be an indie hunter in the south as it is the north these days. Which is to say it can be hard as fuck if you don't know to avoid Mekillots.

Not to detract from the discussion at large here too much, but the goal of the new critters that were added to the game relatively recently was to balance out the amounts of easy, middling, and difficult creatures there are in the world. There are tough animals around Tuluk and weaker ones around Allanak, and things will continue to be tweaked as needed to ensure that it is never "safe" to go outside the walls of whichever city you play in.

Quote from: TheMinstrel on December 05, 2014, 02:04:11 AM
[

I really did expect to get a wall text bomb from some person about this response, which Taven, is why I did not elaborate in my first post. So no surprises there.  My only surprises are:
A. Looks like they used an Alt.  
B. The words put into my mouth such as Vending machine for crafts. That is not -at all- what I have in mind.

There are sooo many amazing possibilities that the Circle could move towards.  A place where those with desire could come and learn about, the arts of every kind (including applied and "industrial"),  and be taught in subjects like history and etiquette, and why not a bit of tech?  Aspect of all these things already exist in the circle.

If as the poster seems to suggest by their motto, the only way to change the game is from the inside out, then this thread is pointless.  Perhaps a good many feel that the GDB is pointless. Now that would be an interesting poll question.

Quote from: Norcal on December 05, 2014, 04:35:36 PMThere are sooo many amazing possibilities that the Circle could move towards.  A place where those with desire could come and learn about, the arts of every kind (including applied and "industrial"),  and be taught in subjects like history and etiquette, and why not a bit of tech?  Aspect of all these things already exist in the circle.

Some relevant thoughts from what I had shared during the shartist reform discussion (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46482.msg786646.html#msg786646) last year...

Quote from: Ouroboros on November 09, 2013, 07:06:41 PM...artistry of that nature isn't handled by the Bardic Circle, even if individual bards have sometimes dabbled in it. They do certainly have arcs of learning, but they revolve around aspects of Culture and Performing Arts, not Art. Art refers specifically to visual arts, whereas the Arts as a term encompass all creative endeavors (including literary arts and performance arts, which the Bards focus on). You might think the Bardic Circle should dominate art as well, others might disagree (as I would), but that's irrelevant to what they actually do focus on. If this -was- to be handled through the Bardic Circle, then it would at the very least warrant the addition of a new circle dedicated to visual arts alone, without forcing them to have to sing and dance as well just to be recognized as painters. But that would make for a rather odd Circle.

Given the direction things have taken with Tuluk I'd probably recant my stance today and throw support behind visual arts represented in the Circle. Not because I feel it's the ideal solution, which for me remains support for artists on an individual level by society as a whole, but because... The ideal just ain't gonna happen any time soon. So between nothing or bards, it might as well be bards.

Also in response to some concerns about Tuluk's perceived weakness... I see it less an issue of virtual weakness and more an issue of coded and game-wide balance.

Tuluk isn't a weaker city-state in my book, though it's strength is mostly supported by virtual manpower. It's a weaker brand; a weaker icon. It's about cultural identity in some ways. It's hard to put in words but if I was looking at Tuluk as a client the first thing I would say is that it lacks... a gimmick? Good a term as any. Tuluk's brand pretty much stands on documentation and subjective superiority, whereas Allanak contrasts Tuluk on each point in terms of culture and expands on that with some hard-coded benefits.

The southern gemmed for example don't just provide war-time combat ability to an on-going conflict. They're an integral part of Allanak's culture, as representatives of that city-state's harnessing of magickal power. They speak to what the city's about. And they also provide unique roles for many players to participate in, as opposed to just a handful of applicants. Even if we were to say Tuluk's gimmick is mental prowess, there isn't much to point to in support of that outside of a handful of special app Faithful roles. If that's to be the city-state's gimmick, then it needs some teeth.

The same applies for the Labyrinth, an area beyond the reach of the law. The experience there is vastly different than what could be achieved through the Warrens (in their current incarnation), because it actually provides a completely different feel than playing inside the lawful quarters of the city. You feel like you're truly in a lawless land, fighting tooth and nail for survival. Whether you can successfully evade crim flags in Tuluk doesn't matter, you just don't get the same experience in the Warrens. Because it's not a land-within-a-land, like the 'rinth is and UT was, it's still just a Quarter. Tuluk can't compete with that experience for players seeking such, at least today.

It can come down to something as simple as how authentic the feeling of patriotism was in playing a proud citizen of each city-state. It could just be me, but representing Allanak always seems to give me a more authentic feeling and stronger immersion than representing Tuluk does. The later sometimes just feels... phoned-in. Or like I'm talking a big game without being able to back it if push were to meet shove. Yeah ok, I'm superior and they're barbarians, but why? Because documentation suggests my people are smarter and more subtly cultured? I need more to stand on.

More coded power on Tuluk's side might benefit the war and bring some balance to a problem that currently relies on PC citizens to fix, but the overall issue is bigger than war. It's about balancing things in a way that makes a player sit and really have a hard time deciding where they want to play. To let the choice rest almost entirely on the character they want to play, without having to weigh strengths and weaknesses between the North and South. In short... a level playing field, where choice is entirely a matter of taste.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on December 04, 2014, 06:54:02 PM
I'd really rather all these suggestions for improvements/additions were added to other areas of the game. Areas that haven't received the same sort of attention that Tuluk has recently. At the end of the day that's up to staff though.

There's an argument to be made. If the player-base can't get behind all the recent additions enough for them to try playing in Tuluk more often, what actually makes you think trying to add and change more stuff will have any effect?

Tuluk was recently MASSIVELY changed. But all I'm hearing is "Give us more, we want more, more more more."

This isn't a direct response to this post, as I'm not 100% sure if what I'm reading in the post is even there, but it's worth saying anyway as it applies to everything:

Staff building is split up along the same lines as clan groups - so the same lines that requests are done through. So all the changes you're seeing in Tuluk vs. everywhere else is not due to the staff as a whole deciding that we need to 'fix' or 'give more' to Tuluk - it's due to Tuluki staff deciding on a course of action and putting in the work, usually with very little outside help.

When Nyr and Co. were putting in the work to revamp the city I was sat on my ass working at a much slower pace to finish up some tribal documentation. Now Nyr's in the south I'm enjoying working with what Nyr's left me and I want to expound on that as Tuluk is now mine, Xalle's and Nergal's main focus. We might do jobbing in other projects for other staff teams - but we are not all dragooned to undertake all-staff projects.

The reason Allanak has been 'forgotten' has nothing to do with staff leaving it to languish (EDIT: Also it's sort of inaccurate to suggest that this is the case - Southland staff have been working very hard of building for plots and writing new documents for Southern clans) - it's to do with Nyr and his band of merry builder's hard work and efforts. Also it's worth saying that just because Allanak isn't gleaming under a new coat of paste it doesn't mean anyone was slacking - it means that that staff group decided to emphasise the larger playerbase and bring the existing city to life.

Right now we're also focusing on that in the North. Just think - a smaller pool of players with a staff retinue the same size as Allanak. You do the math!

New Tuluki gimmick: Make the mutant people poison with their brain. New playable guild.

Hello, my name is Rayonklar. You might recognise me from some recent Tuluk RPT announcements.

I share some opinions from people in this thread in a lot of ways, and I've been very clear to staff about it. Both Rathustra and Nyr have been happy to listen and discuss problems and suggestions, and help with solutions.

When I read a lot here that's negative, it's all based in sins in the past and outright distrust for players, so I'll say the following about Tuluk:

* Fuck quashing plots and PCs without roleplay or cause, no matter who they are
* Fuck quashing crime because it's bad, quash crime that is bad (either poorly thought out or aggressively malicious)
* Fuck silence, super 'subtlety' and fear of saying one word out of place

And I will also say:

* Go crazy, go hard and make fun, and trust your fellow staff and players to support and compete with you without the insta-gib button being pushed.
* Be smart, be sketchy, be bold and trust in staff and players (esp sponsored roles) to respect a degree of lawlessness. Emphasis on the smart.
* Now's the time to step up and forge the spirit of Tuluk going forward: blood, violence, guts and sweary poems, and anything in between that and subtlety.

And I say all of that because I told staff that's what I wanted to see and learnt in turn that that's what they want to see.

Tuluk will never be a carbon copy of Allanak, but it's more malleable and flexible than you think. It needs some solid players to come and make it happen. Come and make it happen.


PS. My major points raised to staff:
1. More crime / support for crime
2. Updated Warrens / commoner support / lawlessness
3. Some 'cool' roles, hopefully supernatural in some manner
4. Relaxation of 'subtlety', encouragement of open discussion
5. War

Murder, corruption and betrayal after all.

Quote from: Norcal on December 05, 2014, 04:35:36 PM
I really did expect to get a wall text bomb from some person about this response, which Taven, is why I did not elaborate in my first post. So no surprises there.  My only surprises are:
A. Looks like they used an Alt.

Erm, I hope you're not saying that this alt was me, because it's not. I'm happy to ask and answer under the same name!

QuoteB. The words put into my mouth such as Vending machine for crafts. That is not -at all- what I have in mind.

There are sooo many amazing possibilities that the Circle could move towards.  A place where those with desire could come and learn about, the arts of every kind (including applied and "industrial"),  and be taught in subjects like history and etiquette, and why not a bit of tech?  Aspect of all these things already exist in the circle.

First off, I think this is already a thing. The majority of the arts are things bards know about and Seekers and up can teach about, unless something changed. This could cover traditional things such as performance types (instrument playing, theatre, singing, storytelling) as well as broader applied information (etiquette, history, geography, medicine, combat, shadow artistry). It depends entirely on the bardic PCs that are in-game.

In terms of visual art and applied arts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_arts) this starts to get into GMH territory, IMHO. There have been Circle bards who have made visual art and I'm sure there might be some willing to teach it, but I think that aesthetically pleasing design, and indeed, fashion and decor in general, is more Kadius' thing. The problem with too much focus on visual arts and craft things is that it can easily get away from the main goal of the Circle. As I understand it, the Circle is designed to be out there and engaging people, entertaining and putting on events. Think of them as the Fale of the north, more or less.

QuoteIf as the poster seems to suggest by their motto, the only way to change the game is from the inside out, then this thread is pointless.  Perhaps a good many feel that the GDB is pointless. Now that would be an interesting poll question.

Haha! That would be the most skewed poll ever.  :D

More seriously, I'm sorry that you think the GDB isn't very constructive. I think it's here so that staff can listen and evaluate people's thoughts and opinions, and I do think changes can come of it. I also think that there's a lot of validity in the "go and be the change" thought, too. I'm not saying everything is possible to accomplish IC, but it remains the best way to get things done.

Here's some things people reading this thread could do in Tuluk:

• Play a bard and have a goal be applied arts, see if you can gain an interest/reputation with it
• Play a bard whose main goal is to teach on a variety of topics and engage the populace
• Play a Dasari or Dasari minion and develop elite, killer poisons
• Play a Winrothol or Winrothol minion with the goal of tracking down the deadliest beats to breed and tame
• Play a Kassigarh or Kassigarh minion, focused on making coin, through all sorts of helpful or devious schemes
• Play a Tenneshi or Tenneshi minion, analyze Allanaki foundations for weakpoints and sabotage
• Play a Tenneshi or Tenneshi minion, draft and plan defenses and fortifications for upcoming conflict
• Play an independent with a goal of learning how things work and inventing new and more successful ways to do things
• Play someone with the goal of starting an illegal crime group
• Play someone who wants to start a legal group of shadow artists, mentoring them and forming an elite task-force
• Play a southern refugee who desperately wants to earn citizenship
• Play a bynner who wants to follow the teachings of Sujaal and bring back northern byn respectability
• Play a filthy, crude bynner from the warrens, who is just a gritty, bad-ass, southern-killing mercenary
• Play an aide to the Faithful, getting involved in making war a reality, be it by coordinating supply lines or planning sabotage
• Play an aide to a Chosen, with a self-serving attitude, focused on the benefiting the House, regardless of what happens to the city
• Play an aide to a Chosen, focused on making their House the best through making Tuluk better
• Play a partisan with a goal of funding a merchant agency
• Play an independent or partisan who wants a niche role (hair dresser, whore, clay digger, masseuse, interior designer, etc)
• Play someone affected by recent events, who used to be employed by Negean, Uaptal, or Hlum and have them find their way from there (so many possibilities)
• Play a family role of elves who want to be the best shadow artists
• Play a family role of elves with clan support via Rusarla, bring the art of sticky fingers to the entertainment scene
• Play a tribal who wants to better their tribes relations with Tuluk, desiring to use the Merchant System to get a stall in the tribal market

There's a lot of options if you're creative. I've played PCs in Tuluk before, and I had a great time!  :)

My point about bards is not to change what bards do already. 

It is to add another dimension I think would be fun to see in game.  I think Tuluk would be a great place for it and bards seem to fit for exactly the reasons you mentioned Taven.

Universities train people all the time, yet I do not consider them to be vending machines for crafts or..whatever. What nonsense.

I think it would be fun to have a place where crafters could go for an IC year or two to build their skills and gain a reputation. Then they can go and work for a GMH or Noble House or wherever with experience under their belt, and a tat that says they have been trained by the best. It is the same thing as many players do in the Byn with a combat char. Meanwhile, their Bardic teachers continue to do bardy things.

Why Tuluk?  For all the reasons I mentioned in my first post. 

Will this happen? Probably not, or perhaps better said NO. Still it's fun to use my imagination.

Tuluk being more technologically advanced sounds all and good, but really what would it take for Nak to swipe in and reproduce this or just outright take it with it's hundreds or thousands of gemmed. Tuluk needs something tangible that Nak can't fuck with, something that ultimately stops the gemmed and I have one suggestion that was already suggested.

Void Mages, the most "Tuluk* of all the elementalists - Have Muk come out and say "Hey, we have a new tool." Have them shunned/avoided by the commoners, make them get "Gems" or the equivalent. Use them to "Void" out the volcano and thus thwart Naks plans whatever they are. Hey if you need to surprise Nak, "poof" Quick way to do that with them. I think imho Void mages would fit right in with Tuluk's ideology if they can be properly introduced that is. Maybe don't call them mages, call them something else so they don't get that stigma that the other "witches" do up in Tuluk.

Just my 2 cents.

News at 11:  "Witchhunters" given the power to nullify and destroy Elementalists by the all-knowing Muk-Utep have now stepped out of the shadows to aide the city in its war against the heathens of the south and their demon-spawned gemmed witches.

I answered "if underTuluk was returned" in the poll, but honestly if what Rayonklar said about the current state of affairs is accurate I'd play in Tuluk again. Kudos on proper marketing, you hit every one of my sale points.

Quote from: Narf on December 06, 2014, 01:15:17 AM
I answered "if underTuluk was returned" in the poll, but honestly if what Rayonklar said about the current state of affairs is accurate I'd play in Tuluk again. Kudos on proper marketing, you hit every one of my sale points.

Ditto, and Nyr being in charge of Nak now just makes that choice a lot easier... because if we don't kill all of his minions, who will?

That Nilhazi idea is genius.

see below.

Quote from: Inks on December 06, 2014, 04:09:11 AM
That Nilhazi idea is genius.

It makes absolutely no sense at all...

QuoteOf all the elementalists of Zalanthas, there is not a less trusted individual than the void mages, besides defilers themselves.

Tuluk hates elementalists, so they'll ally with the ones that are universally agreed to be the worst kind out there?!  

I'm all for Tuluk getting something neat to counter-balance Allanak's gemmed when it comes to cool factor, but there are much better options than this.  I like the technology concept, I also would like to see Tuluk's vastly superior access to resources come into play.  Tuluk should have better wagons, vehicles and mounts.  War-chariots with archers, shit like that.  Mages are powerful, but being able to shoot five arrows for every one Allanak can muster is powerful too.

wizturbo, some of the extended subguilds seem like they would help with killing mages, too.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on December 05, 2014, 03:54:38 PM
I'm largely with Armaddict on this one.

Quote from: Armaddict on December 05, 2014, 03:30:08 PM
The reason Tuluk is played in less is because for many people, the 'feel' of Allanak is what is Armageddon is.  Tuluk has a different feel.  Not  a worse one, just a different one.  So they don't switch away from the one that 'feels' more genuinely seated to them.  This discussion has been had so many times, and trying to turn this into a 'Tuluk needs moar power' thing is frankly just weird.

However, I think there might be some other problems for the low population of Tuluk - that it's (allegedly) so easy to survive up there. In Allanak, if you go out on to the desert alone you're taking your life in your hands. I think this encourages people to hang around and interact with each other, to join clans, to work together against the danger of the Environment (and other players). If everyone in Tuluk can just be a successful indie hunter without any need to plug themselves in to a complicated social fabric, they're going to go their own way.

Both really good points! I guess the relative ease with which one can get to (even walking) newbie-level killable creatures on both sides of Tuluk - might really be affecting population inside Tuluk at any given point.

The other thing is - one can understand that magickers aren't accepted in Tuluki society the way they are in Allanak. However, since the whole "automated internal and peripheral magickal defense" system went into place, AND, with no Undertuluk existing, you're basically ruling out an entire portion of rogue mage and kleptomaniac and psychotic killer population from the Tuluk, and the supporting PCs with sometimes go with them.

Additionally, the low playerbase has it's own cascading vortex.

Allanak is like ancient Rome, Tuluk ancient Phoenecia. Imagine a proud, glorious Tuluki Phalanx coming by to ruin your shit.

Tuluki military should consist largely of heavily armored mounted  soldiers in the vein of cataphrakts with the ability to field many more archers while Allanak would probably rely on turn on a bunch of lightly armored footmen armed with spears and swords, with many more slingers than archers and Gemmed contingents augmenting the main force

#totalwar

I thought it'd be the opposite, given Tuluk favors shields and heavier armor, and Allanak is the swords-and-sandals type.

I have given this far too much thought. Do not rouse the nerd-brain, for its thoughts on tactics are many.

Quote from: Zoan on December 06, 2014, 06:03:51 PM
I thought it'd be the opposite, given Tuluk favors shields and heavier armor, and Allanak is the swords-and-sandals type.

but that's basically what I said

Sorry, you're right. I didn't read it right for some reason. :)

Quote from: Kronibas on December 06, 2014, 04:30:56 AM
wizturbo, some of the extended subguilds seem like they would help with killing mages, too.

Master chef? That's the one you were thinking of wasn't it?

I never got to get more than a brief taste of undertuluk, it seemed like just the thing Tuluk would spit out at the end of the day and I wanted to see more of it.

Quote from: Taven on December 05, 2014, 07:58:04 PM

• Play a bynner who wants to follow the teachings of Sujaal and bring back northern byn respectability

Noob question. What's Sujaal?

Quote from: aeglaeca on December 06, 2014, 10:02:56 PM

Quote from: Taven on December 05, 2014, 07:58:04 PM

• Play a bynner who wants to follow the teachings of Sujaal and bring back northern byn respectability

Noob question. What's Sujaal?

Sadly, Sujaal is a legend that has zero results in the main armageddon website search engine, and whose fame is known only to whatever veteran players of northern PCs are available to tell you IC. And even then, only if you know enough to ask IC, and know who to ask IC.

The map of Tuluk does point out the A'Jinn academy/museum though so you could try starting from there. There is no help file for the academy and it isn't referenced in the history pages of the website that I was able to find.

Actually, considering the history of that PC, it would be info available in the south in a certain clan as well.....and likely on a gdb search as well.

Quote from: X-D on December 07, 2014, 12:36:20 AM

Quote from: Lizzie on December 06, 2014, 10:22:37 PM

Quote from: aeglaeca on December 06, 2014, 10:02:56 PM

Quote from: Taven on December 05, 2014, 07:58:04 PM

• Play a bynner who wants to follow the teachings of Sujaal and bring back northern byn respectability

Noob question. What's Sujaal?

Sadly, Sujaal is a legend that has zero results in the main armageddon website search engine, and whose fame is known only to whatever veteran players of northern PCs are available to tell you IC. And even then, only if you know enough to ask IC, and know who to ask IC.

The map of Tuluk does point out the A'Jinn academy/museum though so you could try starting from there. There is no help file for the academy and it isn't referenced in the history pages of the website that I was able to find.

Actually, considering the history of that PC, it would be info available in the south in a certain clan as well.....and likely on a gdb search as well.

Indeed, there are GDB posts on this particular individual. Here's a couple:

• Sujaal was not a sponsored role, but rose through the ranks (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,30305.msg336645.html#msg336645)
• More in Sujaal, this time with Tuluk (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,30305.msg336760.html#msg336760)
• Sujaal and the A'Jinn Academy (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,45373.msg748656.html#msg748656)

Most of the GDB posts you'll find call him out as one of their favorites and one of Arm's epic legends. I'm too lazy to dig through and find more posts about what he did. You're welcome to search yourself! There's also the "Find Out IC" option.

Quote from: Taven on December 07, 2014, 01:23:40 AM

Quote from: X-D on December 07, 2014, 12:36:20 AM

Quote from: Lizzie on December 06, 2014, 10:22:37 PM

Quote from: aeglaeca on December 06, 2014, 10:02:56 PM

Quote from: Taven on December 05, 2014, 07:58:04 PM

• Play a bynner who wants to follow the teachings of Sujaal and bring back northern byn respectability

Noob question. What's Sujaal?

Sadly, Sujaal is a legend that has zero results in the main armageddon website search engine, and whose fame is known only to whatever veteran players of northern PCs are available to tell you IC. And even then, only if you know enough to ask IC, and know who to ask IC.

The map of Tuluk does point out the A'Jinn academy/museum though so you could try starting from there. There is no help file for the academy and it isn't referenced in the history pages of the website that I was able to find.

Actually, considering the history of that PC, it would be info available in the south in a certain clan as well.....and likely on a gdb search as well.

Indeed, there are GDB posts on this particular individual. Here's a couple:

• Sujaal was not a sponsored role, but rose through the ranks (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,30305.msg336645.html#msg336645)
• More in Sujaal, this time with Tuluk (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,30305.msg336760.html#msg336760)
• Sujaal and the A'Jinn Academy (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,45373.msg748656.html#msg748656)

Most of the GDB posts you'll find call him out as one of their favorites and one of Arm's epic legends. I'm too lazy to dig through and find more posts about what he did. You're welcome to search yourself! There's also the "Find Out IC" option.

That's all well and good, but it doesn't help new players who don't know anything about Sujaal, who do what they're instructed to do FIRST by going to the help files, finding nothing, going to the game history docs, finding nothing, and then the next step would be to acknowledge that "if it's not in the docs then you're not meant to know." New players, a month from now, won't have read your post to know that there are links on the GDB telling them all about Sujaal, whose existence doesn't appear on the main website.

It isn't in the docs. The GDB aren't the docs. It's also a (very minor) peeve of mine that the official clan docs are now only available on the GDB, and not on a password-protected section of the main website as they used to be. If it's official documentation, it should be on the armageddon.org website. The information about Sujaal is not.

Finding out IC doesn't help a new player find out a damned thing if the current characters who it would make sense to ask IC, are played by players who are too new to have known anything about Sujaal. Or if they are asking characters who it would NOT make sense to ask IC, if those players are RPing it "not making sense to ask them" about it. The existence of Sujaal was a couple of kings' ages ago, so no one living now would have ever known him. Even their parents would not have known him, to have told them about it. So basically it'd need to be written in some tomes somewhere, and whoever has read/write of that language, who has access to and interest in reading those tomes, would be the one to ask IC. They might RP that they'd read about it previously and now have that knowledge in their personal memory. But you still have to find out which PC, if any, would have that in their background.

That's a whole lot of IC work for something that SHOULD be in the official game documentation, for everyone to know about.

Quote from: Lizzie on December 07, 2014, 08:07:43 AM
That's all well and good, but it doesn't help new players who don't know anything about Sujaal, who do what they're instructed to do FIRST by going to the help files, finding nothing, going to the game history docs, finding nothing, and then the next step would be to acknowledge that "if it's not in the docs then you're not meant to know." New players, a month from now, won't have read your post to know that there are links on the GDB telling them all about Sujaal, whose existence doesn't appear on the main website.

For what it's worth, generally, "people" are not in helpfiles.  Finding out about past characters would not be found in helpfiles.  For the most part, we are not going to add helpfiles for long-dead PCs or the things they did.  There also isn't necessarily a requirement that all clans (dead/inactive/NPC-only/etc) be listed in helpfiles.  That's not to say that this sort of thing couldn't (or shouldn't) be added in this case or others, but if someone mentions Sujaal on the GDB, searching for it on the GDB does make sense.

QuoteIt isn't in the docs. The GDB aren't the docs. It's also a (very minor) peeve of mine that the official clan docs are now only available on the GDB, and not on a password-protected section of the main website as they used to be. If it's official documentation, it should be on the armageddon.org website. The information about Sujaal is not.

Having a password-protected section of the website does not ensure that the documentation is only available for the clan for which it is written.  Documentation that is only accessible when you are part of the clan is more secure, requires less work for staff (no need to worry about changing passwords to ensure that docs are only available for the intended parties), and allows any staff member to alter documentation on the fly if there are areas that need adjusting. 

Stuff on the GDB can be documentation if staff says it is, and we do in several cases--specifically, in the case of clans--so it is.  :)

I know Nyr, it's just something about the new system that I don't like. It's not a game-breaker, I just preferred the way it was before. As for Sujaal in particular, the creation of the Academy is pretty much part of Tuluk history. As such I feel it should be included in the timeline docs or at least in the Tuluk-specific history docs. And of course, since Sujaal is the one who created it, his name should be part of that blurb about the Academy's existence. If only to note that he was the founder.

Interesting thoughts Lizzie.  Maybe some players should collaborate (in player collaboration) and write a story about Sujaal for the original submissions, perhaps getting ahold of the original player if possible?

Speaking as a new player, I would really really love to see an important PCs type of section on the wiki. It's nice to see when a game's history has been majorly affected by a PC (or a group of PCs) and hearing about the cool stuff other people have done is sometimes a pretty good advertisement for a game. (Edit: It sure was for me!)

Re: GDB searching, it'd be something I'd be more inclined to do once Arm is less fresh for me. I feel like I'm finding everything out in game right now (or through a quick wiki search) and that seems to be working out okay so far.

(Edit 2: I said wiki. I totally meant whatever the main searchable database is.)

I really, really don't think an important pc's list is going to end well. I have seen these things in other MUDs, and the OOC resentment they breed is ridiculous.

Well, it'd sure help when someone says 'go about reviving Sujaal's teachings!' and the poor noob in the corner (me) has no idea what that means. :(

Allanak has always felt more dirty, more rugged, and more dangerous to me.

The people who make characters in Allanak tend to make more believable rugged, dirty, and dangerous characters, which are the characters I prefer to be around.

The criminal elements in Allanak are stronger, and in general, much more prevalent and in my opinion, much more exciting. Making a criminal in Tuluk is just....meh. Criminals in Tuluk don't even feel like criminals to me. They feel like unofficial militia, more or less.

The desert around Allanak has always felt much more dangerous and hardcore to me.

When my characters go to Tuluk, I feel like they are sort of on vacation. Which can be nice at times. I have felt that way for years. Maybe I have a false sense of security, but outside of getting Templared, so long as they avoid bahamets, the danger level is "meh" at best.

I like Tuluk for what it is. I like the surrounding environments for what they are. I like to play there from time to time, but the reasons above are why I generally prefer to spend the bulk of my time in the south.

Personal views and preferences. *shrug*

Edited to Add: With all of that being said, I LOVE the contrast between the two. I like that Tuluk is what it is because it makes the south seem even more rugged, dirty, and hardcore to have that to compare it against and actually experience that major contrast when you travel IG.

I personally respect that "important PCs" isn't a part of the website. I would like it to remain that way.

As for the new players: Don't worry about knowing who "important PCs" are or were. It doesn't matter to you as a player. It will only rarely matter to your PCs -- and that's what counts, whether or not your PC should or would know about it. (Answer is, no, in 90% of cases, and if the answer is yes, your PC is poised to learn who they are already)

Figuring out things you don't know about IG is just a part of the process. Not to sound like an ass, but it's also part of the fun. Also, those clueless tells you're exhibiting IG should be giving everyone the hint that maybe there's some important code or social elements your character needs to learn, if it's not, I'd be very dissappointed. Keep in mind, when displeasure is expressed with your character, it's not OOC them to you, it's IC, OOC they know you're still figuring things out but the fact remains they have to stay IC or they provide a bad example that could have echoing effects.

Quote from: Fujikoma on December 08, 2014, 11:35:24 AM
Figuring out things you don't know about IG is just a part of the process. Not to sound like an ass, but it's also part of the fun.

This. So much this.

Some of the best times you are ever going to have in Armageddon is when you are new and you don't know a lot of the secrets and a lot of the limitations of the world and the game. Dream big and go for it.

There are hundreds of significant people in the history of Zalanthas.  It'd be cool if there were IC histories kept about all of these people (and maybe there are some).  I think only templars and nobles would have access.  There was once a bard named Holden Irofel who told all kinds of interesting stories from history, I'm guessing he was an older player who'd actually experienced these things and decided to share a lot of them.  However in a place like Tuluk, things could get difficult in the case where one unknowingly started telling the real history from one's memory that was in conflict with the "The Official History"

The infamous 'Find out IC' is a great way to see who these people are.

Names like Sujaal can be easily investigated in places like Tuluk, because his name is ubiquitous, especially if you ask someone in the Circle who's focus is history.

Man, I haven't seen Find out IC used that often recently. Wha' Happen?

Quote from: Molten Heart on December 08, 2014, 12:21:58 PM
There are hundreds of significant people in the history of Zalanthas.  It'd be cool if there were IC histories kept about all of these people (and maybe there are some).  I think only templars and nobles would have access.  There was once a bard named Holden Irofel who told all kinds of interesting stories from history, I'm guessing he was an older player who'd actually experienced these things and decided to share a lot of them.  However in a place like Tuluk, things could get difficult in the case where one unknowingly started telling the real history from one's memory that was in conflict with the "The Official History"

Holten Irofel.

People's stories, and stories about people are available in game to some extent. The Circle (oral history and traditions), nobility (House libraries and collections) and templarate (government libraries and archives) are all good sources if you want to learn more about someone from the past. Also, if you're interested in a Kadian, House Kadius might be the place to go to ask and so forth. Sometimes staff can provide various kinds of information, if your PC is in a position to find out. It can be both fun, rewarding and dangerous to pursue that kind of knowledge.

I'm quite sure most of the people all those roads and streets are named after were PCs. Fun stuff for the historically inclined Tuluki.

Quote from: Reiloth on December 08, 2014, 12:22:38 PM
The infamous 'Find out IC' is a great way to see who these people are.

Names like Sujaal can be easily investigated in places like Tuluk, because his name is ubiquitous, especially if you ask someone in the Circle who's focus is history.

Man, I haven't seen Find out IC used that often recently. Wha' Happen?

It's a shitty answer when not backed up by anything else. People often misused it for things that you can't even 'find out IC'. Others griped about that, and now nobody respects the phrase.

FIND OUT IC RGS

To continue the derail, it would be awesome if you could make your characters' biographies accessible after X number of years.  Maybe you'd have to ask staff to make sure everyone in them is dead.  Maybe as a spin off from the original submissions page or something.  I don't know.

It's not a find out IC type of thing.  I mean, sure you could find out IC about the public mythos of a famous character.  But that's not quite the same as being able to get into their head via biographies or an insider's view from the player of the character.

It might be a fun suggestion for original submissions.

I'll probably make it when the submissions tool stops being broken.

Quote from: valeria on December 08, 2014, 05:42:03 PM
To continue the derail, it would be awesome if you could make your characters' biographies accessible after X number of years.  Maybe you'd have to ask staff to make sure everyone in them is dead.  Maybe as a spin off from the original submissions page or something.  I don't know.

It's not a find out IC type of thing.  I mean, sure you could find out IC about the public mythos of a famous character.  But that's not quite the same as being able to get into their head via biographies or an insider's view from the player of the character.

That's sorta the thought behind this:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48378.0.html (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48378.0.html)

To summarize: People, start submitting your PCs life and death (the bio entries for instance) in narrative form using the "Question" pulldown on the Request Tool (once Original Submission is added to the pulldown, you should use that instead).  Staff will probably reject the boring ones.

I would love this!

Quote from: Nyr on December 04, 2014, 10:24:23 AM
As for the poll, it does provide three metrics:  People that want to play there and would, as-is, then people that would only play there if conditions were met, and then people that just don't want to play there at all.  We can discount the last group entirely.

The conditions offered are as follows: 

Add something that was removed years ago (because the staffer that was going to modify it ultimately didn't do it, so we removed it).  We don't have a project to re-add UT.  Rathustra has mentioned here that there are other ideas in mind for modifying Tuluk to have something closer to this.  This takes time and effort, but we do want to do this.

Tone down the automated defenses in Tuluk. When these things were added we mentioned that it would be tweaked over time, especially as we add better code to it and make it smarter.  It has only been active for a few months.  We do have some metrics from it and (again) improving it is intended.  This also takes time and effort, but we do want to do this.

Change other stuff about Tuluk and I'll play there.  This is the most disparate category because it may be different things, but there may be areas here where staff and players can discuss, guide, correct, etc.

Correct Nyr.

When you combine the two polls (Play in Tuluk and Your first choice of location to play a PC), here is what one *could* interpret:
(PP = Player Population)

10.9 % of the PP voted that they would prefer to play in Tuluk
4.7 % of the PP voted that they would play in Tuluk, provided Undertuluk was re-introduced.
84.4 % of the PP voted that they would prefer to play elsewhere in the world.
(Important to note that out of the 84.4 % of PP - a whooping 61 % voted for Allanak and Labyrinth combined.)

Next,

49.4 % of the PP voted that they would play in Tuluk - as things stand right now.
12 % of the PP voted that they would NOT play in Tuluk - under any circumstance.
38.6 % of the PP voted that they would play in Tuluk - only provided certain changes were introduced.

From the first poll, it is evident that *something* is right in Allanak that is attractive to the player base.

From the second poll, it seems apparent that we *could* add considerably to the Tuluki player base, if some changes were made.

Now, Nyr has already commented that certain changes ARE envisaged, but they will probably take some time to be implemented.

I guess this means that until these changes go through, we're all going to have to make a concerted effort to increase the Tuluki player base, if we want to see some evenly-balanced gameplay.

Now, we also have some very interesting observations:

Quote from: Armaddict on December 05, 2014, 03:56:25 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on December 05, 2014, 03:54:38 PM
I'm largely with Armaddict on this one.

Quote from: Armaddict on December 05, 2014, 03:30:08 PM
The reason Tuluk is played in less is because for many people, the 'feel' of Allanak is what is Armageddon is.  Tuluk has a different feel.  Not  a worse one, just a different one.  So they don't switch away from the one that 'feels' more genuinely seated to them.  This discussion has been had so many times, and trying to turn this into a 'Tuluk needs moar power' thing is frankly just weird.

However, I think there might be some other problems for the low population of Tuluk - that it's (allegedly) so easy to survive up there. In Allanak, if you go out on to the desert alone you're taking your life in your hands. I think this encourages people to hang around and interact with each other, to join clans, to work together against the danger of the Environment (and other players). If everyone in Tuluk can just be a successful indie hunter without any need to plug themselves in to a complicated social fabric, they're going to go their own way.

Valid.

A very crude interpretation of this could be - that the relative ease of finding game outside Tuluk and being able to survive - tends to promote more solo play, and in turn cuts down on the population available IN Tuluk for interaction/RP.

Does anyone have any other possible/meaningful interpretations of this data? Lets hear em.

Quote from: Incognito on December 09, 2014, 06:53:28 AM
Does anyone have any other possible/meaningful interpretations of this data? Lets hear em.

I'd say that both polls provide less meaningful data due to how they were constructed, and that polls on the GDB can't necessarily provide meaningful data, and that polls are not really any measure for staff to do anything as we have never really utilized them before and do not really plan to in the future.

Construction of each poll: 

The "what's your first choice to play a PC" poll doesn't take into account where people are playing now or where people just played a PC, and it doesn't take into account any other variables such as sponsored role offerings, and it doesn't take into account the very nature of decent roleplayers playing the role they want to play more than they want to play in a particular "place."  Despite clarifying that it is for ANY PC, in general, it is hard to shed those biases.  Someone playing in Tuluk now may not want to play there for their next PC, thus this may skew their general response.  Someone that just played a tribal may not want to play a tribal for their next PC, thus this may skew their general response.  Someone that sees a sponsored role offering for an area may change their mind about their next playing opportunity.  And quite honestly, I didn't answer the poll at all because where I play depends entirely on the concept that I want to play--and there's no option for "I play the role that currently intrigues me, regardless of where the role is."  That's where we'd want all players to eventually get to (imho).

The "Play in Tuluk" poll offers options that are more biased than not, and it does not properly take into account the actual desires or wishes of the player. 
Bias inherent in each question:
"I'd play regardless - as things stand right now."  This doesn't indicate very much about the wishes of the player and really seems more to be a thing to vote for to counter every other option.  Have you seen our playerbase and what we discuss on the board?  Do you really think there are 41 people that are happy enough with something in the game that they wouldn't change a thing about it?
"I'd play if Undertuluk (or similar) was re-inserted."  This offers no counter such as "I'd play right now but I also would like UT or similar to be re-inserted."
"I'd play if the automated magick/psionic defenses were toned down."  This offers no counter such as "I'd play right now but I also would like the automated magick/psionic defenses to be toned down."  Additionally it says "toned down" rather than "improved/altered/expanded upon," which is something staff has said we'll be doing, and we've gone in-depth about it before.  If nothing else, the poll tells us here that there are at least four people that want to play magickers in Tuluk but feel that the current system would keep them from doing so.
"I wouldn't play in Tuluk, regardless of any changes/additions."  Oddly enough, this is the only response that I think is actually reasonable.
"I'd play in Tuluk if some other addition/change was made (explain separately)."  This is a catch-all for everything, and again, offers no counter such as "I would play in Tuluk but also would want some other addition/change made."

By the way, no, you can't combine both of those polls.  That's wrong.  Bad statistics.  Very bad.  Whatever I may think about the methods, they measure two different things.

Polls not providing meaningful data: GDB polls only net the people that read them.  If we want statistics, it is better to measure what players actually do rather than what they say they will do.

We don't use polls to determine staff direction:  Well, we don't.  It is said occasionally, but this is not a democracy.  You may provide your input and opinions, but nothing necessitates that it be acted upon.  With that said, we do take into account player input for decisions that are made--usually in advance of making a decision.  Oftentimes what players do and request and idea have influence on what happens.  See:  the minor merchant house stuff (a long time in the making, and whose documentation I'm neglecting to chime in here), crafting with fire/crafting changes, shrinking Tuluk, the moon stuff, bulk spice buyer, restrictions to first PCs, etc., to name a few.

I have to agree with Nyr about this thread's poll in particular -- the first option is there as a counter to the others, which are specific needs or requirements. I don't think this poll really tells us anything about how the playerbase as a whole feels about Tuluk right now.

I'd play in Tuluk because: *gives Allanak BOTH fingers*

I am not a huge fan of Tuluk. I like the dirt of Nak, the hot immediacy of life in Nak. That said, its good for the game to move around. Try Tuluk. If it sucks wait a year and try again. Because its good for the game. Because maybe it will be awesome and we just don't know.

I used to be a long time tuluk player. In fact out of all the years I've played, and all my characters my main ones were tuluk. It was only after the last HRPT I began making allanak character and after playing in tuluk so long, I feel in love with allanak. Perhaps it was just a breathe of fresh air, a change of pace, but deep down I feel the setting and area(s) offer a lot more potential then tuluk.

Lets say for example I get into an argument in the middle of the night with someone in game, and one thing leads to another and they end up dead. Its night, crime code doesn't get you. Someone ending up dead in allanak could have happened from so many sources, rinther, maybe crazy stormer passing through, some rogue magicker, angry murderous militia,etc etc. Death and public violence in allanak has always been ever day life. I know staff has been trying to change this way of thinking in tuluk but it bring us to our second problem. Lets say someone walks in and sees you killing someone. In allanak, it isn't over, you have rinth if have some connections, or you can go to redstorm. Both of these places are special in the sense that you can still have a to of interaction, both in those location and with allanak due to the close proximity and the over all settings of the places.   In short, you can hide out in these places while still causing trouble/intereacting in allanak if need be or just hide out for a while until people forget you and just travel back and forth between locations.

You could head to luirs, but I don't think its too Ic to say that luirs= kurac, so how valuable are you to them alive?

Take that same scenario in tuluk, what options do you have that allow you to keep interacting with the city? Heading to storm would remove you from any interaction with tuluk.  If you chose allanak, you can blend in much more easily since tattoos/accent are far more detriment than in the past. Even if warrens were made into a lawless area, its not the rinth with its culture. Living out in the wilds? you could do that in allanak too, and have redstorm. The crime has to be either legal and regardless you need to get away with it completely without anyone finding out its you. There are fewer interesting options if you fuck up. This makes people less willing to risk the character they've invest time in activities which might ultimately just be throwing them away. At the end of the day, Allanak has more interaction and will ultimately have more shit going on because it supports all sort of characters and their RP better .  

While I've always hated the idea of legalized crime but despite that I still preferred the old system. At least in the past houses could hire an assassin, train them up, and potentially be a valuable tool for them. They would earn influence for the house through his or her actions while doing the same for themselves. It was a simple system which really felt much more rewarding then the new shadow agent sounds. If the name of the game is Murder, betrayal and corruption, it just feels like there is a lot less bureaucracy in Allanak when you decide to go about it.

Anyways, this might not be a democracy but I can still vote where to invest my time. :)

I'm confused about why you can't do any of the things you're saying you can't do in Tuluk, with the exception of playing identity games with accents/lack of tattoos and hiding in Red Storm.

Any starting location other than Red Storm Village is Armageddon Lite.  :-*

Quote from: HavokBlue on December 09, 2014, 01:36:27 PM
I'm confused about why you can't do any of the things you're saying you can't do in Tuluk, with the exception of playing identity games with accents/lack of tattoos and hiding in Red Storm.

You didn't read my post, I didn't say you couldn't kill anyone. Just said, fucking up has fewer interesting options.

If you've committed an illegal murder, the response is going to be the same in either city unless you take appropriate steps. All murders in the south are illegal. Not all murders in the north are illegal. Maybe you killed someone illegally but you got caught, and you kick a a couple thousand coins to the Faithful that caught you to stop investigating a 'licensed' murder.

There's no reason an assassin can't be trained by and serve as a valuable tool to a House. I can think of plenty reasons why a House WOULD want to train and maintain an assassin or two. Whether that house wants to purchase shadow contracts when utilizing their assassin or do everything under the table and deal with the consequences in their own way is up to the House.

QuoteThe "what's your first choice to play a PC" poll doesn't take into account where people are playing now or where people just played a PC, and it doesn't take into account any other variables such as sponsored role offerings, and it doesn't take into account the very nature of decent roleplayers playing the role they want to play more than they want to play in a particular "place."

Um, it does not take that into account because none of that matters to the question of the poll.

The question is simply, of areas to play, where is your first choice. Period.

If I was to make another poll and make it tighter, say, If you could only play one more Place, and after that all your PCs started there, Where would it be? My bet is that it would end up much the same, or any other wording that essentially means, Where is your fav place to play in the game. As to the rest of your argument on that point, I do not think you are giving anybody credit.  I think they know exactly what the poll is about and answered WITH the bias that the poll wanted, IE, what is your fav place to play, it does not matter what they want to play next or what they last played etc etc etc. Hell, I voted nak, because if I was to be stuck in one location for all my future PCs, I would want it to be nak, Although I DO play elsewhere. Hell, It is a poll about bias, both are. The poll was not about roles, what you like to play, simply, where is your preferred site...reading anything more into it is silly. And People do not get to the point of I play where ever the role I want to play needs to be. Most people are simply not that masochist.

That poll is the most meaningful of the two, And if I was in a position that mattered to the mud, I would want to start finding out exactly why it came out as it did and what can be done to fix it. So that say 2 years from now 80% of the vote is split between Nak and Tuluk and the other 20% spread evenly everywhere else.

I know, I set high goals.

Now.

QuoteThe "Play in Tuluk" poll offers options that are more biased than not, and it does not properly take into account the actual desires or wishes of the player.  
Bias inherent in each question:
"I'd play regardless - as things stand right now."  This doesn't indicate very much about the wishes of the player and really seems more to be a thing to vote for to counter every other option.  Have you seen our playerbase and what we discuss on the board?  Do you really think there are 41 people that are happy enough with something in the game that they wouldn't change a thing about it?
"I'd play if Undertuluk (or similar) was re-inserted."  This offers no counter such as "I'd play right now but I also would like UT or similar to be re-inserted."
"I'd play if the automated magick/psionic defenses were toned down."  This offers no counter such as "I'd play right now but I also would like the automated magick/psionic defenses to be toned down."  Additionally it says "toned down" rather than "improved/altered/expanded upon," which is something staff has said we'll be doing, and we've gone in-depth about it before.  If nothing else, the poll tells us here that there are at least four people that want to play magickers in Tuluk but feel that the current system would keep them from doing so.
"I wouldn't play in Tuluk, regardless of any changes/additions."  Oddly enough, this is the only response that I think is actually reasonable.
"I'd play in Tuluk if some other addition/change was made (explain separately)."  This is a catch-all for everything, and again, offers no counter such as "I would play in Tuluk but also would want some other addition/change made."

By the way, no, you can't combine both of those polls.  That's wrong.  Bad statistics.  Very bad.  Whatever I may think about the methods, they measure two different things.

Now, your arguments here Are more on point....
First question, Yes, we can also assume that at least half of them are fanboys who simply want Tuluk to look good.....And I agree with everything you say on that question actually.
Honestly, you know what, this is a bad poll...Nyr, you are right on this poll, the information gained is essentially useless. There are too many variables to everything...I was just looking at the undertuluk question. And hell, you could  love tuluk and already be playing there and vote for it simply because you think it would be better WITH undertuluk.

But the first choice poll does give valid and useful information.

Quote from: HavokBlue on December 09, 2014, 01:49:11 PM

There's no reason an assassin can't be trained by and serve as a valuable tool to a House. I can think of plenty reasons why a House WOULD want to train and maintain an assassin or two. Whether that house wants to purchase shadow contracts when utilizing their assassin or do everything under the table and deal with the consequences in their own way is up to the House.

By purchasing contracts the (Surif) House would promote the shadow arts, ensure the legality of their dirty business, uphold and adhere to the Sun King's Law, support the Arts and so on. As most nobles would have no trouble getting permission to purchase their various contracts (not only assassinations), I can't see any good reasons to keep an unlicensed assassin or thief in the House employ. Especially so considering the massive stink unlicensed crime causes, and nobles generally don't like that kind of stink when it rubs off on them. Even utilizing someone quite far removed from any official House employ could be considered going against both law and tradition. Yes, nobles are regarded as exempt from most laws, but the people working for them are definitely not. Doesn't look good to do that kinda stuff, and we all know appearances are important to nobility.

Having a registered shadow artist in-House and not purchasing contracts for their activities would probably be strongly disapproved of by the Templarate, more so if it's not a single incident.

I have not yet played a shadow artist in Tuluk, but I most certainly intend to try it out at some point. Maybe I won't like the system once I try, but the societal complexity in Tuluk has always had a strong appeal with me.

There are a couple documentation-supported reasons I can think of why a Surif House would want to utilize an assassin off the record.

The Atrium..only a distinctly Tuluki variety,

Quote from: X-D on December 09, 2014, 02:28:17 PM
Um, it does not take that into account because none of that matters to the question of the poll.

The question is simply, of areas to play, where is your first choice. Period.

Even that is limiting and makes it a generally useless poll.  For instance, what is your second choice?  What is your third choice?  This is not an election in the States where winner takes all.  Players play in many places and gravitate to what they enjoy...some because they like the idea of a concept there and have always wanted to try it out, some because they got a sponsored role there, some because "screw it, I'll give a delf a shot for a week or two."  All we requested here was to give a bit of a shot in the arm to playing in Tuluk so that some other plots can be encouraged forward.  You do not need to have Tuluk as a first choice for more people for that to happen.

QuoteThat poll is the most meaningful of the two, And if I was in a position that mattered to the mud, I would want to start finding out exactly why it came out as it did and what can be done to fix it.

Well...

Quote from: Nyr on December 09, 2014, 09:37:53 AM
Polls not providing meaningful data: GDB polls only net the people that read them.  If we want statistics, it is better to measure what players actually do rather than what they say they will do.

I'd argue that in this case, there is nothing to fix.  The poll is not reliable or useful towards any actionable end; people (at least people that have GDB accounts that used one or more of them to vote in a poll on the GDB) are allowed to think that their first choice for playing a PC would be playing it in Allanak--if that is what this poll shows.

why do you need a second or third choice? The fact that one place truly dominates as a first choice is telling enough. would the other info be nice as well...sure...but that would require a thread and somebody to tally the numbers...not a simple poll.

And that person was only elected by the people that voted and only the people who answered the phone counted towards that poll....etc etc etc. The arguement that the poll only reached people on the gdb is invalid, it is still a % of the player base and can be assumed to be a fair cross section.

And of course people play other areas for what ever reasons...but that is not the question at hand.

As to being actionable...eh, i would agree that at this point there is not enough info. But maybe knowing that nak is VASTLY prefered is enough to be actionable in getting the rest of that information?

Quote from: X-D on December 09, 2014, 04:23:13 PM
why do you need a second or third choice?

If one can select multiple choices in order of preference rather than a single choice as a single preference, it provides a better picture of tolerable preferences/favorites for everyone.  For instance, if your first choice is Allanak but your second choice is Tuluk, you're likely to be just fine with your second preference if the first option is unavailable (you just played there, you are bored with it and want a change of scenery, etc).

If you're talking about something actionable, if Tuluk was not a top 3 preference for a majority of players, yes, that might be a problem worthy of some review.  Seeing as how there are a significant (if you're going to argue that the numbers are fair/reasonable/etc) amount of players willing to play there as-is right now, I tend to doubt that would be the case.

If you're going to argue that the numbers on the polls are a fair cross section, then I'll point out other discrepancies that call into question the usefulness of either:

Approximately 30% more players are interested in expressing their opinions on a poll about Tuluk than a poll about their favorite place to play (83 for one poll, 64 for the other).  If nothing else, it points to the fact that there are 19 people that could have weighed in on the other poll, but didn't.

More players are willing to express their opinion that they'd be willing to play in Tuluk, period, as-is (41 people) than there are players that are willing to express their opinion that they'd play in Allanak first (35 people).  If nothing else, it points to the fact that preferences do matter:  you can think Allanak is your favorite city and still be willing to play in Tuluk.

3 players are more willing to play in a place that doesn't exist as a playable location...than play in a place that actually exists in the game, as a first choice.  If nothing else, this skews results for favorites.

I still don't think it is a useful poll.

Alright....first off...statisticly Tuluk would almost have to be in the top three...there is only 5 choices...only one other choice is even a city state.

So actually if you wanted an accurate poll you need only two choices. Then assign the % that would be actionable.

As to the rest, i already agreed that one poll is useless. Half the people likely voted only in defense. So i am not exactly sure why you keep bringing it in.

I want to add that I think the reason the magick/psionic defenses answer is so low is because there's rarely a reason to be in the position to be a nonmundane who is seriously testing the defenses of the city, and then some people might think it fine and dandy anyway after one isolated event without knowing everything that could have happened. Some players don't know what undertuluk was like either, and probably assume it was Tuluk's labyrinth, which I don't feel is quite accurate.

I wonder how many players are constant travelers who stay in a city because the taverns are full and go to the other one when they're empty without a real "home base."

Quote from: X-D on December 09, 2014, 08:12:53 PM
As to the rest, i already agreed that one poll is useless. Half the people likely voted only in defense. So i am not exactly sure why you keep bringing it in.

All three things I pointed out are about the poll you like/comparing it to the other poll that we both don't like.

My bag, I was posting from my phone and it tends to skip around.

And to clarify, I never said I like either poll, but one at least has somewhat viable information is all.

Quote from: Nyr on December 09, 2014, 03:50:49 PM

Quote from: X-D on December 09, 2014, 02:28:17 PM
Um, it does not take that into account because none of that matters to the question of the poll.

The question is simply, of areas to play, where is your first choice. Period.

Even that is limiting and makes it a generally useless poll.  For instance, what is your second choice?  What is your third choice?  This is not an election in the States where winner takes all.  Players play in many places and gravitate to what they enjoy...some because they like the idea of a concept there and have always wanted to try it out, some because they got a sponsored role there, some because "screw it, I'll give a delf a shot for a week or two."  All we requested here was to give a bit of a shot in the arm to playing in Tuluk so that some other plots can be encouraged forward.  You do not need to have Tuluk as a first choice for more people for that to happen.

QuoteThat poll is the most meaningful of the two, And if I was in a position that mattered to the mud, I would want to start finding out exactly why it came out as it did and what can be done to fix it.

Well...

Quote from: Nyr on December 09, 2014, 09:37:53 AM
Polls not providing meaningful data: GDB polls only net the people that read them.  If we want statistics, it is better to measure what players actually do rather than what they say they will do.

I'd argue that in this case, there is nothing to fix.  The poll is not reliable or useful towards any actionable end; people (at least people that have GDB accounts that used one or more of them to vote in a poll on the GDB) are allowed to think that their first choice for playing a PC would be playing it in Allanak--if that is what this poll shows.

1) The 2 polls were meant to get a feel of what the players think and want - casual - and not some sort of in-depth study.
2) As a player, GDB polls are the ONLY tools that are available for any sort of research - however rudimentary or crude or incorrect they may be.
3) As far as players saying something else and wanting something else - there's really nothing anyone can say on that statement....
4) As far as "there being nothing to fix" - again, I'm not gonna argue on that. Maybe we can revisit these points 6 months down the line and see if the skewed Tuluki population has auto-corrected itself - as mentioned earlier (i.e. player bases being cyclic in nature).

Last but not the least - I've never mentioned anywhere, that the purpose of the polls was to "get Staff to do *anything*"

Tuluk seems to have a fine population, at least right now.

Quote from: Reiloth on December 10, 2014, 12:54:31 PM
Tuluk seems to have a fine population, at least right now.

I have to agree. I mean, it's not mind-blowingly huge, mind you... still, more players more problems, like I said in another thread it's kind of jarring when someone brings some Nakki behaviors into Red Storm or the rinth, or even Luir's. Lots of stuff to unlearn. To you folks playing there now, wanted to say, from my ignorant perspective, really doing a good job keeping it real.

That's probably the only thing about Tuluk for me, I'm never sure if I'm behaving correctly. I'm sure other people feel that way too and I just have to get over it.

I can't keep saying I wouldn't mind Tuluk being completely wiped out without basing that in some experience playing there. So I'm going to give it another try, really go for it this time. Inked, loyal, that whole shebang.

I encourage others to do the same. Come play in Tuluk. Even if it's only just to prove to yourself you don't like it.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on December 11, 2014, 06:07:25 PM
I can't keep saying I wouldn't mind Tuluk being completely wiped out without basing that in some experience playing there. So I'm going to give it another try, really go for it this time. Inked, loyal, that whole shebang.

I encourage others to do the same. Come play in Tuluk. Even if it's only just to prove to yourself you don't like it.

Probably my next PC.  It's probably like most things in life where you get out of it what you put into it.

You should all come play clayworkers with us and explore that particular niche while you prove how much you prefer Allanak.

Quote from: little chicken woman on December 11, 2014, 06:16:10 PM
You should all come play clayworkers with us and explore that particular niche while you prove how much you prefer Allanak.


The silver-streaked, willowy female sends you a telepathic message:
     "*growling playfulness* Oh... ohhhh!!! Your so going to regret that!"


How are clay digging and operating a Way sex line related?

Too subtle to describe.  8)  8)  8)

Still debating what to play now...You know I have never once played a Pc from Tuluk and can count the number of times I've been in that city on one hand. I have been playing since 2004 or 2003? I might give it go.  :o I just never liked the cast system and it just seemed like of the two cities it was least likely to have a cast system. Also I love my mages  :P

you'd think a city with a cast system would be all about mages

I don't understand why someone would have a problem with the caste system unless mudsexxing nobles and templars was like the highlight of their arm experience

Quote from: HavokBlue on December 12, 2014, 10:08:45 PM
I don't understand why someone would have a problem with the caste system unless mudsexxing nobles and templars was like the highlight of their arm experience

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/swollengoat/hahayeah.gif)

Quote from: HavokBlue on December 12, 2014, 10:08:45 PM
I don't understand why someone would have a problem with the caste system unless mudsexxing nobles and templars was like the highlight of their arm experience

i don't have the patience for crafting to get mad $$$ and all my combat chars are shit so how else do you expect me to get anything done

Quote from: MeTekillot on December 12, 2014, 10:20:35 PM

Quote from: HavokBlue on December 12, 2014, 10:08:45 PM
I don't understand why someone would have a problem with the caste system unless mudsexxing nobles and templars was like the highlight of their arm experience

i don't have the patience for crafting to get mad $$$ and all my combat chars are shit so how else do you expect me to get anything done

Sparring accidents?

tressies get paid just as much per emote in tuluk as they do in allanak; you just stroke different instruments. but it's the same thing.

...Rofl, nice one. I'll pay it *fistbump*

Quote from: HavokBlue on December 12, 2014, 10:08:45 PM
I don't understand why someone would have a problem with the caste system unless mudsexxing nobles and templars was like the highlight of their arm experience

because romance/seduction/cheating is a large part of conflict and competition.

nobles and templars are corrupt. it's a means of sharing in corruption. mudsexxing nobles and templars is a highlight of arm's experience


ps. so got laid as a southern templar  8) probably my favourite incident in that area of things was walking into the Red's Retreat, wasn't fixed back then, and tipping some badass hat to two chicks at the bar. Left without a word, both fine individuals contacted me at the same time to get to know me later, and I think I sexed one.

ps.2. or maybe the time a gemmer complained to me he couldn't get laid because the gemmed were all lezzers and wanted to hook up with my templar. never touched gemmeds no matter how hard they tried either.


ps3. So in non drunkspeak, it does contribute a lot to play, in all honesty. Offers templar and noble killing opportunities too. Also makes the noble role more fleshed out (lol)

It's an 'easy' way to contribute to political drama.

The political drama in Tuluk between castes is a little more mature because it isn't about that. Commoners have their dramatic relationship problems, while Nobles and Templars focus on the matters at hand.

Though it is an easy way to bribe a Southern Templar/Noble :)

Sex is probably the oldest form of manipulation and a time honored tool to raise your own social standings and for for the downfall/elimination of social enemies and threats.
Not to mention good old wealth and power.

Why do you think all the aides are tressies, anyway?

Quote from: Patuk on December 13, 2014, 01:24:06 PM
Why do you think all the aides are tressies, anyway?

::)

Doesn't deserve more of a response than that.

I will take back what I said the day the byn exists predominantly of hulking, broad-shouldered women who enter bars late at night to make the silky dudes there blush with crude jokes.

I would love to see your vision come to fruition, Patuk.

Quote from: Patuk on December 13, 2014, 02:45:07 PM
I will take back what I said the day the byn exists predominantly of hulking, broad-shouldered women who enter bars late at night to make the silky dudes there blush with crude jokes.

Character idea listed.

It's going to be my second female character ever! Actually maybe first one on Arm, if not third one ever. I played a horrible female dwarf in an Forgotten Realms MUD once. She wasn't nice. There was bad words to call her, and just be right.

Not that I'll ever get in the Byn now of days.

Probably like 1 in 7 of my characters start in Tuluk.  Five of them are Nak and 1 of them is random like Luirs, RS, D-elf..ect.  In the past I have had characters that spend alot of time in Tuluk, enough so they developed northern accents.   Probably not realistic to do so now though.

None of my characters start in Tuluk, I have a feeling that will change, though.

I haven't played a Tuluki for years. But I probably will soon now that it has a bit more grit.

As someone who has played exclusively in Tuluk, I feel like I'm not biased(in certain ways) for Allanak or against Tuluk.

What I've noticed, as someone earlier mentioned before, is that Tuluk is very top-heavy.  So we have many sponsored roles, but not enough underlings to emulsify the plot progression that is just beneath the surface of Tuluk's social masquerade and favour-mongering.  This sets the tone for a segregated environment at times.  

In my opinion, I don't think the lack of players in Tuluk is the problem.  The problem is why our playerbase is not having fun there.  Player population is a natural result of addressing those concerns.  GDB is a vocal minority, but ARM's playerbase is small enough to consider the points raised.


I'm going to list things I -like- about Tuluk because I believe in positive reinforcement, and identifying what has been done right will help to outline the areas might be improved over time:

-Nobles are approachable. As a commoner, I can play a PC's personality with integrity and not be expected to grovel in the dirt before them, thus stripping me of every iota of mortal dignity. Not having to compromise your social self-esteem for every highborn wearing silk and a metal ring creates a more malleable social atmosphere that I can dive into.
-Templars, to a certain extent, can be engaged with.  Occasionally in your face, yes, but they feel accessible.
-Legal crime.  It's an oxymoron, but it works.  While I don't enjoy playing within it's confines, per se, the system has its merits.  It opens up myriad avenues for conflict among Houses and the interplay of events in between.
-The recent addition to Player-created clans.  Thank you, whoever saw that through.



What I feel doesn't work anymore:
Trying to push the idea that nothing is ever wrong within the city, or that it is a perfect Utopia.  It isn't.  We're at war.  You minimize the grit of the world when your PC gets bent out of shape from the mere mention of death. Gaslighting/tattling to higher-ups because Betrayal(TM) does not equal a healthy roleplay environment when it is happening for every little thing.  It's an irritation, because Tuluk already has a very high bar set for RP nuances.  Compound all the other elements of harshness and difficulty already in the game with this player mentality, and it's just not fun anymore.

Look at the world.  Death is everywhere.  Famine is everywhere.  Suffering and brutality is abundant.  Why are people getting their panties in a knot over discussing even fleeting references to this stuff?  This seems to be especially true for players who remember the Old Tuluk.  It's like they aren't really ready to let go.  These are just my observations though, take it with a grain of salt.

Subtlety is important, but there's a difference between being subtle and being absurdly vague.  Add to that Sekrit Powers(TM) and it becomes a pain in the ass to do anything without being cracked down upon by the powers that be.  

Have you ever been in a relationship where you feel suffocated?  Playing in Tuluk can feel like dating someone like that.  Sometimes.  I would like to see that change.

As someone who spends a lot of time playing in Allanak, I don't have a whole lot to say, besides I needed a change of pace and mood, and I wish I hadn't waited this long to attempt it.

Option 5: I'll play in Tuluk when people stop juxtaposing their favorite anime characters into Armageddon there.  

Not sure if juxtapose is the word you wanted there.

You're right. "Juxtapose" implies that the contrast was a desired effect.

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss302/shroomman779/SDNW4/horatio.png)

I don't watch any anime, I wouldn't know a character based on an anime character if I saw it. All my characters tend to be pretty boring, hehe.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on December 31, 2014, 03:02:10 PM
Option 5: I'll play in Tuluk when people stop juxtaposing their favorite anime characters into Armageddon there.  

Except, one would have to play there to know such a thing occurred.  Inbefore wild assumptions escalate.

Shut up guys, I'm trying to charge my power move...

It'll take five episodes of appearing constipated...

While the Zalanthan counterpart would take an IG month of smiling and telling you all is ok... it is, I certainly wasn't trying to do anything horrible, you believe me, right?

I think both cities are fine. People just gonna have preferences, but yes, I'm glad both operatus morandi is a little different.

I think this topic was locked accidentally, so I unlocked it.  Do please keep it on topic though.  Thanks!

Here's an idea if you want to play in Tuluk but aren't sure what you want: requires a die. Simply roll your life away!

Origin
--------
1. Tuluk
2. Tuluk
3. Tuluk
4. Luir's
5. a nomadic location
6. Allanak

Personality quirk
---------
1. Feeble will
2. Loyal
3. Outgoing
4. Reserved
5. Wary of strangers
6. Obsessed with something

Background
----------
1. Typical life
2. Typical life
3. Missing family member
4. Dwarf is obsessed with you
5. Raiding background
6. Merchant background

Really go out there
----------
1. Manifested witch
2. Once kanked a noble
3. Knows what Muk Utep looks like
4. Killed someone illegally
5. Messed with by witch
6. Messed with by defiler

I don't think 2 of the last list is gonna fly with staff, actually.

Kinda like that as a way to come up with concepts. Except Patuk is right.

You can't assume your character knows what Muk-Utep looks like. (maybe their a religious crazy that claims to have had a vision from the Sunking, heresy typically doesn't last long though)

Kanked a noble is gonna be a no go as well.

7. kanked illegal muk utep look alike unmanifested noble.

Quote from: Tetra on December 29, 2014, 08:09:32 AM
-Nobles are approachable. As a commoner, I can play a PC's personality with integrity and not be expected to grovel in the dirt before them, thus stripping me of every iota of mortal dignity. Not having to compromise your social self-esteem for every highborn wearing silk and a metal ring creates a more malleable social atmosphere that I can dive into.
-Templars, to a certain extent, can be engaged with.  Occasionally in your face, yes, but they feel accessible.

I also like this about Tuluk (or perhaps dislike it about Allanak).  There's this phenomenon down south where when a noble or a templar walks into the room, your PC suddenly goes -blank-, at least mine do.  Perhaps I'm -too- afraid of them, but I just grovel.  It's fun, but it's also fun to carry the personality of your PC over into RP with the nobles.  Of course, you aren't their equals, but at least your personality can linger in the conversations.  Just commenting, I wouldn't change anything!

Knowing what Chuck Utep looks like is not very usual but okay at least, since Chuck Utep at least appears in public once in a blue(black?) moon. Kanked a noble is where staff tends to go 'Tuluki nobility will do no such thing,' though.

Quote from: Jingo on January 07, 2015, 02:46:38 PM
Kinda like that as a way to come up with concepts. Except Patuk is right.

You can't assume your character knows what Muk-Utep looks like. (maybe their a religious crazy that claims to have had a vision from the Sunking, heresy typically doesn't last long though)

Kanked a noble is gonna be a no go as well.

Muk Utep has appeared publicly.

the tall, muscular man turning into Muk Utep is probably the best thing that ever happened on Arm. Ever.

I always wondered if the whole "pyramids" and "Muk Utep" obvious Egyptian influence/theme is just something that got put in a long time ago that would be far too hard to get rid of at this point but we are just ignoring because it causes some serious "Wut?" issues.

Why is the leader of Tuluk basically a Pharaoh with a giant pyramid and an Egyptian name and everything....but that is pretty much the only Egyptian themed thing in the game?

It is like we all just kind of pretend and refuse to talk about the fact that Muk Utep is basically this guy.....for no apparent reason.

Was Mommy and Daddy Utep from Egypt? What is going on here?

(http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/King-Tut-GETTY-440824.jpg)

Even the entire rest of Tuluk seems to have zero Egyptian influence in its culture/society....but the leader is a Pharaoh in a pyramid.

Makes me wonder if Tuluk was initially supposed to be more Egyptian but that vision got scrapped and redirected along the way and the whole Muk Utep-pyramid thing would have been too much effort to retcon and fix.

I'm doubtful that Muk Utep is an Egyptian name. Egyptish, maybe, but I don't think any Egyptian ever held such a name.

And Tuluk does have an element of Ancient Egypt inside of it in its caste system, though other parts of it are un-Egyptian in turn. Egypt was a place of beer, not Tuluk's wine and tea.

To be as specific as possible in as few words as possible, this thread (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46981.msg804056.html#msg804056) does exist, and does detail some of the influences in official Tuluki garb.  There is definitely Egyptian influence in the new templarate as well as that of the Aztecs and Mayans.  In fact, when discussing this prior to the artwork requested, this is what I posted to Tuluki templars:

QuoteSo with that in mind, yes, we were thinking that Tuluki cultural stuff should be more along the lines of Aztec, Mayan, Incan, and a bit of Egyptian thrown in (we DO have pyramids after all, though so did the aforementioned cultures--more ziggurat in structure though).  Does that mean we need to take things a bit more drastically in Tuluk?  I would say "no, not yet," and aim towards improvement and cultural shift (in playerbase/documentation) over time.  Having templars dressing more "the part" should inspire the rest of the playerbase, and once we decide on the uniform stuff, I will see what we can do to get some artwork lined up to show what this looks like.  There are a few player artists that might be willing to donate some work to us.

So to answer your questions, no one is ignoring it, it is not the only Egyptian themed thing in the game nor is it only Egyptian themed, and quite a bit of fun work was put into fleshing out this part of Tuluk, so I'm glad to see it brought up.  Once again, many thanks to the player artists that assisted in bringing that vision to life.

Oh, well how about that. I guess I just never noticed all of the other Egyptian stuff in the game. I will keep an eye out for it.

Quote from: Desertman on January 07, 2015, 04:47:13 PM
Oh, well how about that. I guess I just never noticed all of the other Egyptian stuff in the game. I will keep an eye out for it.

D00d, nothing says Egypt more than a pit of clay right in the middle of your city.

Quote from: Malken on January 07, 2015, 04:51:03 PM

Quote from: Desertman on January 07, 2015, 04:47:13 PM
Oh, well how about that. I guess I just never noticed all of the other Egyptian stuff in the game. I will keep an eye out for it.

D00d, nothing says Egypt more than a pit of clay right in the middle of your city.

My new character concept.

The wizened, hunched mul.
Foses

"Sun King, let my people go!".

Quote from: Desertman on January 07, 2015, 04:56:04 PM

Quote from: Malken on January 07, 2015, 04:51:03 PM

Quote from: Desertman on January 07, 2015, 04:47:13 PM
Oh, well how about that. I guess I just never noticed all of the other Egyptian stuff in the game. I will keep an eye out for it.

D00d, nothing says Egypt more than a pit of clay right in the middle of your city.

My new character concept.

The wizened, hunched mul.
Foses

"Sun King, let my people go!".

Why is Muk Utep the richest man in the Known?

Everyone keeps falling for his pyramid scheme.

(http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/glee/images/1/17/Ba_dum_tss_Troll_face_lol_funny_joke_mhm_okay_is_you_good.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140825205146)

Quote from: Desertman on January 07, 2015, 04:09:28 PM
I always wondered if the whole "pyramids" and "Muk Utep" obvious Egyptian influence/theme is just something that got put in a long time ago that would be far too hard to get rid of at this point but we are just ignoring because it causes some serious "Wut?" issues.

Why is the leader of Tuluk basically a Pharaoh with a giant pyramid and an Egyptian name and everything....but that is pretty much the only Egyptian themed thing in the game?

It is like we all just kind of pretend and refuse to talk about the fact that Muk Utep is basically this guy.....for no apparent reason.

Was Mommy and Daddy Utep from Egypt? What is going on here?

(http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/King-Tut-GETTY-440824.jpg)

Even the entire rest of Tuluk seems to have zero Egyptian influence in its culture/society....but the leader is a Pharaoh in a pyramid.

Makes me wonder if Tuluk was initially supposed to be more Egyptian but that vision got scrapped and redirected along the way and the whole Muk Utep-pyramid thing would have been too much effort to retcon and fix.

Muk Utep actually sounds more like a Mayan name than an Egyptian name to me.

one of their main gods goes by the name of Ek Chuaj(chuka)... the names seem similar to Muk Utep.(another god went by ah peku)

Egyptian names had far more syllables from what I've seen (Ramses, Cleopatra, Ptlomey)

Cleopatra and Ptolemy are Greek names. Egyptian ones tend to be even longer and stranger sounding.

I also get a more Mesoamerican vibe from Muk Utep and Tuluk than Egyptian. At the very least, you could inhabit a Mayan or Aztec pyramid a lot more easily than an Egpytian one.

Quote from: Trillmendous on January 07, 2015, 07:35:19 PM
Why is the leader of Tuluk basically a Pharaoh with a giant pyramid and an Egyptian name and everything....but that is pretty much the only Egyptian themed thing in the game?

The easy answer is that Zalanthas is a post-apocalyptic setting and Muk Utep's seemingly unique cultural trappings might just be the last remains of some pre-fall civilization. He did come from outside the current Known World, after all.

(Muk Utep came through space from earth after building the pyramids, Meso- AND Egypto).

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 07, 2015, 07:45:23 PM
(Muk Utep came through space from earth after building the pyramids, Meso- AND Egypto).

Wait a minute... Are we being punked? Is this a Star Gate MUD?

The suffix -tep for a name is Egyptian just fine, as Amenhotep and Imhotep can attest. That's about it insofar naming conventions are concerned, though.

And as I said before in this thread, Tuluk has a caste system, much like Egypt once did. The caste systems themselves are very dissimilar, though.

It always sounded like an ancient Egyptian name to me. *shrug*

Ahhotep I
Ahhotep II
Amenhotep I
Amenhotep, son of Hapu
Amenhotep-Huy
Anhotep
Djehutihotep
Imhotep
Khnumhotep I
Mentuhotep I

Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2015, 11:32:45 AM
It always sounded like an ancient Egyptian name to me. *shrug*

Ahhotep I
Ahhotep II
Amenhotep I
Amenhotep, son of Hapu
Amenhotep-Huy
Anhotep
Djehutihotep
Imhotep
Khnumhotep I
Mentuhotep I

Fun fact: 'hotep' is a three-sound hieroglyph:
(http://i.imgur.com/teLFokl.jpg) (Ignore the 'p' and the 't' beneath it, that's just to reinforce the reading).

It means what it appears to be (which is unusual in hieroglyphs as they're not actually pictograms as is commonly assumed) - which is an offering table. Indeed the picture above shows the symbol for 'offering'.

In terms of why it appears in pharaonic names - it's used there to mean 'to be satisfied' - the Pharaohs had names that read more like slogans or titles, e.g.: Sobekhotep means 'Sobek is pleased'.

So perhaps Muk Utep is a bastardisation of Muk Hotep which would mean 'Muk is pleased'.

I've been learning to read hieroglyphics and apologise to anyone with any actual knowledge of Egypthology, but here's my attempt at 'Mukhotep' (m3khtp):

(http://i.imgur.com/nSak8mV.png)

(Shh, don't let the Templars know you can recognise Tatlum!)

Anyway, this took a lot longer to throw together than I expected so I'll post about my inspirations when approaching Tuluk later.

Tatlum...

Is...

Squee!

Ok I'm kidding about tatlum - there's no documentation on what the script looks like. If it was hieroglyphic in nature, however - it would only appear like that in engravings and other art pieces. Written tatlum in more typical use would be in hieratic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieratic) which is sort of like cursive hieroglyphics (but in fact was a system of writing that developed in parallel to hieroglyphics).

Yeah, it was just a funny thought.

I still found that to be very interesting and kind of neat. Thank you.  :)

So, it's interesting you mention the stuff about Muk Utep and the pyramids. When I started playing Armageddon, being a big Dark Sun fan I interpreted the two city states as mish-mashes of the various Dark Sun city states. You had Tektolnes (Tectuktitlay), who ruled from what was obviously Kalak's golden tower (http://i.imgur.com/aSzmVa5.jpg) (ok I just knew he had a tower - who reads room descs anyway?).

Then in the North you had ziggurats and a dude called Muk Utep who had the same sort of Dark Sun mish-mash going on - possibly the Raam/Urik to the South's Tyr/Draj?

Anyway, as I played exclusively in the South for the majority of my player years I assumed that the pyramid in the north was stepped and the places was an obvious nod to mesoamerican civilisations. I mean - conquered tribes forged into a dominion by a charismatic emperor who lives atop a pyramid beside a jungle? Seemed obvious.

More obvious though was that as Armageddon isn't a visual game, everyone projects what they pick up when they glance at room descriptions. We also project our own assumptions and ideas about culture, fashion and badassery which inevitably shape the feel of the world. There's certainly a disconnect towards my own bronze-age, sandals and sorcery vision for Armageddon than the one which our very talented artist-players portray with their visions of an equally valid world of much later, A.D. inspired dresses and military garb.

But my draw to Dark Sun has always been that it doesn't care about Europe, western fantasy or myths outside of the mouldering ruins of the past. Interacting and experiencing a world that's entirely foreign and doesn't care about your assumptions is what I love about the setting. I wanted to try and inject some of that into Tuluk when I took on adminship of the North.

So yes - I look to first and middle kingdom Egypt and scraps of Mesoamerican empires from much later for inspiration along with a big helping heaping of Mesopotamia. Here's an album I put together when we were discussing new gear for the Templarate and Legions: http://imgur.com/a/XdvNC

Again this might be really at odds with your own 'vision' of Armageddon. We're quite punky - desertpunk? We take rather familiar institutions, concepts and themes and change the materials to chitin and obsidian and revel in that look. That's still valid. I think that look can sit alongside other imagery too.

As an aside though - a lot of people when they think Egypt think the late kingdom - or Cleopatra and the like. The Egyptians of the early and middle kingdoms (~4000BC to ~1200BC) were basically Armageddon incarnate. They were a totalitarian regime headed by a king who enforced his divine position ruthlessly. The Pharaohs of Egypt carved out an empire, overcame foreign occupation, pushed back southern aspirations from their long time rivals from Nubia - and all this without horses/mounts or iron of any kind. Tek and Muk could learn a lot from them.

Also they had the first tall, muscular man in Pharaoh Ahmose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmose_I) (Which means 'Child of the Moon' - SPOOKY) - proof that there's no glass ceiling for commoners.

If any of these ideas appeal to you - given that Armageddon is mostly a player-developed game in terms of imagery - I'd say the vast majority of our most iconic items are products of player MCs or staff calls for objects - maybe look up some ancient Egyptian, Sumerian, Babylonian or whatever, weapons and jewelry and consider cribbing some designs. I mean look at this stuff: http://imgur.com/a/nfjht (Literally 1 minute searching randomly on google).

I picked up a couple of Dark Sun books and tried to read them a few years ago. I found I just couldn't enjoy them.

After many years of playing Armageddon and recognizing everything in the books but trying to associate our twist on everything to the familiar references in these books, I felt like "the books were wrong". If that makes any sense.

I really wanted to enjoy them too. Your breakdown makes me want to try and read the books again, but I think I have already ruined myself on that "version" of Dark Sun because I'm so accustomed to our own little world.

Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2015, 03:45:57 PM
I picked up a couple of Dark Sun books and tried to read them a few years ago. I found I just couldn't enjoy them.

After many years of playing Armageddon and recognizing everything in the books but trying to associate our twist on everything to the familiar references in these books, I felt like "the books were wrong". If that makes any sense.

I really wanted to enjoy them too. Your breakdown makes me want to try and read the books again, but I think I have already ruined myself on that "version" of Dark Sun because I'm so accustomed to our own little world.

Yeah - I've never read any of the novels. I've only really gotten into the setting through the original few resources for D&D and then I came to Arm and now I feel the same way about a lot of the material that was released after the first edition of the setting. I'll have to try and run a game of Dark Sun some time for Armers.

Quote from: Rathustra on January 08, 2015, 03:48:11 PM

Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2015, 03:45:57 PM
I picked up a couple of Dark Sun books and tried to read them a few years ago. I found I just couldn't enjoy them.

After many years of playing Armageddon and recognizing everything in the books but trying to associate our twist on everything to the familiar references in these books, I felt like "the books were wrong". If that makes any sense.

I really wanted to enjoy them too. Your breakdown makes me want to try and read the books again, but I think I have already ruined myself on that "version" of Dark Sun because I'm so accustomed to our own little world.

Yeah - I've never read any of the novels. I've only really gotten into the setting through the original few resources for D&D and then I came to Arm and now I feel the same way about a lot of the material that was released after the first edition of the setting. I'll have to try and run a game of Dark Sun some time for Armers.

I'm there. (if it is online)

Sort of related: http://kamazotz.deviantart.com/art/Lowland-Maya-Postclassic-Fashion-Set-343999681

When I was doing art for Tuluk, I specifically asked if the pyramid was a ziggurat or flat sided, and was told it was flat sided.  That really screwed with me, because I'd always pictured it as a ziggurat as well.

Quote from: Rathustra on January 09, 2015, 08:19:59 PM
Sort of related: http://kamazotz.deviantart.com/art/Lowland-Maya-Postclassic-Fashion-Set-343999681

so what your saying is fmes can walk around topless

Necro!

Here are some thoughts (my perceptions!).  I'd play in Tuluk, for sure, without changing anything.

a) Foreigners aren't welcome in Tuluk, both OOCly and ICly.  This means foreigners don't come (why not just go to Luir's?), and this means the interaction base is pretty small.  OOCly, the tats (esp. at the warrens) prevent foreigners from really getting anything other than barsitting going.  ICly, I think we all know what's up ICly.

b) It's really private.  I have some idea why, but there's this tendency to move RP into an apartment - and it's not about the mudsex.  I have a hunch this is because people don't feel comfortable talking in public about things; but this means to a random foreigner that does come in (see [a]) the town looks empty.

c) The playerbase is actually pretty small, and the kinds of PCs you see is also pretty small (see point [d]): a lot of Legion PCs and aide PCs and templar PCs.

d) Topheavy.  I think someone mentioned this before, but there are more noble/templar PCs than not, and that's frustrating I think on both sides.

Except (c), a lot of these things also have positive effects.  (a) for instance generates an us vs. them climate.  (b) allows for neat one-on-one RP.  And (d) allows for a lot of fun upper echelon RP.  Sometimes, however, playing in Tuluk feels like playing in the rinth or a sun runner during one of "those" cycles.

I know several people who OOC'ly stopped playing in Tuluk when barricades went in preventing a lot of them from having any meaningful storage space access.

All they could do was go to Tuluk, sell at the local shops they had access to, sit at the bar, maybe get harassed, and leave. They couldn't put down roots if they wanted to because there was nowhere to put down roots. Surprise, surprise, making it so that every other portion of the playerbase in the game can't actually live in the city hurt the population of the city.

I think foreigners can now again rent places to live in Tuluk? I'm not sure. I hope so. I know it was an issue initially when that change first went in. It made playing anything but a true Tuluki in Tuluk kind of a shit-level arrangement.

Glad for the necro. This is a much better place to write some stuff up.

Quote from: nauta on January 26, 2015, 11:17:37 AM
Necro!

Here are some thoughts (my perceptions!).  I'd play in Tuluk, for sure, without changing anything.

a) Foreigners aren't welcome in Tuluk, both OOCly and ICly.  This means foreigners don't come (why not just go to Luir's?), and this means the interaction base is pretty small.  OOCly, the tats (esp. at the warrens) prevent foreigners from really getting anything other than barsitting going.  ICly, I think we all know what's up ICly.

b) It's really private.  I have some idea why, but there's this tendency to move RP into an apartment - and it's not about the mudsex.  I have a hunch this is because people don't feel comfortable talking in public about things; but this means to a random foreigner that does come in (see [a]) the town looks empty.

c) The playerbase is actually pretty small, and the kinds of PCs you see is also pretty small (see point [d]): a lot of Legion PCs and aide PCs and templar PCs.

d) Topheavy.  I think someone mentioned this before, but there are more noble/templar PCs than not, and that's frustrating I think on both sides.

Except (c), a lot of these things also have positive effects.  (a) for instance generates an us vs. them climate.  (b) allows for neat one-on-one RP.  And (d) allows for a lot of fun upper echelon RP.  Sometimes, however, playing in Tuluk feels like playing in the rinth or a sun runner during one of "those" cycles.

a) This is true. It's an interesting thought as there's two sides to this - on the one hand, providing access to non-Tulukis encourages more non-Tulukis to hang out in Tuluk but on the other hand that doesn't actually improve the situation in Tuluk as these aren't Tuluk players, they're 'citizens of the Known'. I think players who can achieve this status probably don't want to be in Tuluk anyway. The tattoo checkers also help concentrate players into a particular area and aren't infallible. Also there's the point that the stuff that the checkers restrict access to is sort of underutilised anyway. It comes down to storage space and hidey-holes.

b) This is well documented but I've never heard a good theory on why players do this. We thought it was the subtlety angle - we're trying to build a case for more brash personalities existing at the bottom end of the social order.

c) As you say, this links to point d...

d) We can't change this outside of forcing people to play in Tuluk (which I'd never support unless it also forced people to play in Allanak). We try and provide the city with movers and shakers so things can move and shake. These role-app'd characters need minions to actually achieve anything. It's trickle-down economics and it works about as well in game as it does IRL.

My opinion on the player numbers in Tuluk is - I will always aim to serve the feel of the game (as interpreted by collaboration with my STs), players who regularly play in Tuluk and players as a whole - in that order. Changing things to appeal to worldly players or to support globe-trotting isn't high on my priorities - these players and those PCs can support themselves. Note that I do believe that there should be tools in place for foreigners to square up to and try and overcome the hardships and adversities they face in Tuluk. But it should still be an unpleasant experience.

Quote from: Desertman on January 26, 2015, 11:27:40 AM
I know several people who OOC'ly stopped playing in Tuluk when barricades went in preventing a lot of them from having any meaningful storage space access.

All they could do was go to Tuluk, sell at the local shops they had access to, sit at the bar, maybe get harassed, and leave. They couldn't put down roots if they wanted to because there was nowhere to put down roots. Surprise, surprise, making it so that every other portion of the playerbase in the game can't actually live in the city hurt the population of the city.

I think foreigners can now again rent places to live in Tuluk? I'm not sure. I hope so. I know it was an issue initially when that change first went in. It made playing anything but a true Tuluki in Tuluk kind of a shit-level arrangement.

Doublepostin'.

Storage space is a big deal. It's one of those perspective things I struggle with as I never really played a PC with an apartment when I was a player, so coming upstairs and seeing the amount of garbage players get attached to is sort of interesting. I understand completely, however - having a pad and a base is awesome. I suppose it comes down to play styles!

We're aiming to provide 'storage space' on par with the quality of life outsiders in Tuluk should expect. It'll be something but I doubt it'll appeal to the people Tuluk shed when the barriers/'foreigner's quarter' was implemented.

Thing that got me was restricted access to the kilns. Really?! How am I to become a master potter if I'm a non-citizen. :P

Quote from: Fujikoma on January 26, 2015, 12:00:38 PM
Thing that got me was restricted access to the kilns. Really?! How am I to become a master potter if I'm a non-citizen. :P

Don't worry - we're working on bringing the pleasures of ceramics to the entire Known.

Quote from: Rathustra on January 26, 2015, 11:57:40 AM

Quote from: Desertman on January 26, 2015, 11:27:40 AM
I know several people who OOC'ly stopped playing in Tuluk when barricades went in preventing a lot of them from having any meaningful storage space access.

All they could do was go to Tuluk, sell at the local shops they had access to, sit at the bar, maybe get harassed, and leave. They couldn't put down roots if they wanted to because there was nowhere to put down roots. Surprise, surprise, making it so that every other portion of the playerbase in the game can't actually live in the city hurt the population of the city.

I think foreigners can now again rent places to live in Tuluk? I'm not sure. I hope so. I know it was an issue initially when that change first went in. It made playing anything but a true Tuluki in Tuluk kind of a shit-level arrangement.

Doublepostin'.

Storage space is a big deal. It's one of those perspective things I struggle with as I never really played a PC with an apartment when I was a player, so coming upstairs and seeing the amount of garbage players get attached to is sort of interesting. I understand completely, however - having a pad and a base is awesome. I suppose it comes down to play styles!

We're aiming to provide 'storage space' on par with the quality of life outsiders in Tuluk should expect. It'll be something but I doubt it'll appeal to the people Tuluk shed when the barriers/'foreigner's quarter' was implemented.

I really liked the idea of having certain "upper crest" areas reserved by tattoo checkers for the "upper crest" of society only. It felt very "caste system Armageddon get-shit-on-peon-peasant-garbage".

What I never did understand (I'm not saying there isn't a good reason, I'm just saying I don't understand) was why areas of the city where human garbage would be living was suddenly not accessible to foreigners.

Why does the city care if their peon quarters are accessed by dirty foreigners? Why are the peasants of Tuluk in all of their squalor being protected from the intrusions of the foreign garbage? Would Tuluk's templarate and nobility really care?

If Tuluk's nobility and templarate does care that much about their dirty commoners in their dirty commoner areas....that really lends its self in my opinion to the misconception that life in Tuluk is easier for commoners and the commoners there are less dirty and better cared for/taken care of.

Personal opinion.

I love caste society separation for the purpose of pointing out how dirty and horrible life in Zalanthas would be for a commoner.

I don't really care for the idea of the peasants getting their shitty little areas "protected" as well.

I think it's about control.

Just as Nazi's in the Third Reich rounded up the Jews and put them in their Ghettos, I think the Tuluki Templarate wants to put all the foreigners where they can be watched and controlled.

I agree that the Warrens seems like an unlikely candidate for monitoring, but it's also an area of the city that isn't monitored very well to begin with. And a great place for foreigners or dissident elements to take root, so I can see why it's controlled as well.

Which leads into my point exactly. It -would- be a great place for foreigners and criminal elements to take root and add some intrigue and plotlines and actual corruption and crime to Tuluk....it would be ideal for adding in and letting some gritty elements survive....but they have the same code in place to protect them that they have in place to protect the most luxurious high-class tavern in the city.

Quote from: Down Under on January 26, 2015, 12:09:57 PM
I think it's about control.

Just as Nazi's in the Third Reich rounded up the Jews and put them in their Ghettos, I think the Tuluki Templarate wants to put all the foreigners where they can be watched and controlled.

I agree that the Warrens seems like an unlikely candidate for monitoring, but it's also an area of the city that isn't monitored very well to begin with. And a great place for foreigners or dissident elements to take root, so I can see why it's controlled as well.

Funny story, Muk Utep means Hitler in a language I just invented two minutes ago.

Quote from: Down Under on January 26, 2015, 12:09:57 PM
I think it's about control.

Just as Nazi's in the Third Reich rounded up the Jews and put them in their Ghettos, I think the Tuluki Templarate wants to put all the foreigners where they can be watched and controlled.

I agree that the Warrens seems like an unlikely candidate for monitoring, but it's also an area of the city that isn't monitored very well to begin with. And a great place for foreigners or dissident elements to take root, so I can see why it's controlled as well.

There's IC stuff about it and OOC stuff about it.  ICly, yeah, the argument goes through (or the other argument, I mean, it's spooky templar magics!). OOCly, in my experience, if people really want crime / grime plots to get going, you need to let the criminals / griminals (which will be, due to low player counts, a mix of foreigners and locals) meet and plot and cook up.  So, OOCly, it's sort of a playability thing, and the trickle would be I think good: you'd get more of those grimy PCs we all want (not every warrens rat is a criminal just like not every rinth rat is - there's just this vibe of grime and dirt), which in turn would feed into neat plots for Legion and upper echelon PCs.  It's like a trickle-up theory, hehe.  (Personally, I think population centres should strive to maintain two major plot divisions: outwards, i.e., the war, which is staff / upper echelon PC driven for the most part, and inwards, which is the crime, which is more mundane PC driven for the most part.)

Tuluk has, in my personal opinion, suffered greatly from a lack of a rinth-equivalent quarter. I remember the days of Under Tuluk.

Even with the omni-present authority issues that plague Tuluk and make it almost impossible to play a true criminal there...Under Tuluk still allowed a few to exist, even if they couldn't come topside a great deal.

I would love to see something like an "Under Tuluk" reestablished in Tuluk through rioting/natural disasters/social economic collapse.....insert anything to make part of the city not crushed by an all-knowing all-seeing law enforcement presence.

Of course, the other end of that is we don't want to create just a "northern Allanak".

I guess it is a fine line to walk and maintain. If you go too gritty, you basically just create Allanak and the Rinth the northern version, which ruins a lot of great things about Tuluk.

I'm not really sure by what you guys mean when you say it's hard to play a criminal in Tuluk..

One of my last Tuluki character was a thief and I never had any troubles hiding out in the warrens the few times I was caught, or to just be myself and hang out in taverns without constantly being harassed by Templars or Legion PCs.

The only thing that will make it hard to play a 'true' criminal in Tuluk is the mentality and smallness of the playerbase, where if you are caught stealing from a PC you're pretty much fucked in a non-IC (mostly OOC) way since everyone that plays there will know that you're a pickpocket and might play on it to keep you away from their RP. (Even though licensed crime should be almost celebrated)

Tuluk attracts a certain.. Elitist playerbase (Hey, I'd almost say I'm one of them, so I'm not pointing fingers) that makes you want to hang out with other PCs that have the same.. Mentality.. Tuluk is like.. Refined and.. Urgh... Noble? I don't have the time nor the words to make it more clear but you guys know what I mean, hence the apartment-rp. You have the bards PCs who mostly hang out with other bard PCs and the hunters who mostly hang out with other hunters (or nobody) and then you have the dirty Warren dudes who have almost no one to hang out with because generally, when someone wants to play a petty two-bits criminal, they do it in the rinth.

Now if I only had more time to play, I'd be the fucking change. I have the PC and the will to do it, now all I need is some free time.

If you survived as an unlicensed (real) criminal in Tuluk that interacted regularly in a criminal fashion with people/things other than NPC's...my hat is off to you Sir. You have done what I could not.

Quote from: Desertman on January 26, 2015, 12:39:49 PM
If you survived as an unlicensed (real) criminal in Tuluk that interacted regularly in a criminal fashion with people/things other than NPC's...my hat is off to you Sir. You have done what I could not.

No, I was licensed.. Why would you want to not be licensed?

Sit in what taverns?

The Blue Vestric?

I feel one problem with this thread is a lot of the nay-sayers don't play in Tuluk, so it's a lot of speculation from afar and misremembered 'truths'.

I've played there since the changes, while I approve of them I can see the point some people are getting at, which is if you want a bigger population with more grit, easing up a little on the xenophobia might help, also, lawless area, as has been said is being worked on, would help a bit. What's naysayer? Who's saying nay?

'They just don't get it' is a really easy complaint to make in any discussion. You don't need to prove any points for us. 'They don't get it so everything they say is wrong' adds nothing to this thread.

I also don't think the Vestric suits Tuluk's poor element very well. Nobles walk in every other day.

Quote from: Patuk on January 26, 2015, 03:56:56 PM
'They just don't get it' is a really easy complaint to make in any discussion. You don't need to prove any points for us. 'They don't get it so everything they say is wrong' adds nothing to this thread.

I also don't think the Vestric suits Tuluk's poor element very well. Nobles walk in every other day.

I don't think the nobles walking into the Blue Vestric are expecting it to be a 'nice' bar.

I think they know full well they're slumming it as much as is socially acceptable. They probably wouldn't be caught dead in the Tooth without a good reason.

I think the changes in Tuluk are actually going in the right direction. I've played a lot in Tuluk over the past few years and their is a considerable difference between a few years ago vs now... And its a lot better.

I don't think the changes are "over" per-say which is also very positive. I think what staff are doing and working on re: Tuluk is actually sculpting it out to be a pretty cool place to RP. You can be a -real- criminal now. It's still hard and you don't really have a place to call home (warrens need work and UnderTuluk is gone). But compared to 2 years ago? Pfft. Way possible.

Tuluk though really is only as good as its Nobles / Templars.  Tuluk is top heavy and will always be that way.  It's by design (and thats fine).  Thankfully certain aspects of that Top Heavy element were merged and neutered... leaving the players of Tuluk a much more fun, reasonable and realistic place to play.

Quote from: Desertman on January 26, 2015, 12:24:22 PM
Tuluk has, in my personal opinion, suffered greatly from a lack of a rinth-equivalent quarter. I remember the days of Under Tuluk.

Even with the omni-present authority issues that plague Tuluk and make it almost impossible to play a true criminal there...Under Tuluk still allowed a few to exist, even if they couldn't come topside a great deal.

I would love to see something like an "Under Tuluk" reestablished in Tuluk through rioting/natural disasters/social economic collapse.....insert anything to make part of the city not crushed by an all-knowing all-seeing law enforcement presence.

Going on probably 6 years now, I've been thinking that instead of Under Tuluk as it existed, there should be a "Foreigners Quarter". Not as a have for crime, specifically, but as a place to keep people in one area. Over time, PCs would start using it as a "base of operations" of sorts, but frankly speaking the Templarate would have total control (... hah) over what goes in and out of there.

But, again... "Why would not want to be licensed" is the simple point. ICly, there's no reason not to. OOCly, its damned inconvenient, high pressure, and maybe you just want to "buck the system" and not get pointed out faster than an apartment-casting 'gick.

Quote from: Riev on January 28, 2015, 07:34:51 PM

Quote from: Desertman on January 26, 2015, 12:24:22 PM
Tuluk has, in my personal opinion, suffered greatly from a lack of a rinth-equivalent quarter. I remember the days of Under Tuluk.

Even with the omni-present authority issues that plague Tuluk and make it almost impossible to play a true criminal there...Under Tuluk still allowed a few to exist, even if they couldn't come topside a great deal.

I would love to see something like an "Under Tuluk" reestablished in Tuluk through rioting/natural disasters/social economic collapse.....insert anything to make part of the city not crushed by an all-knowing all-seeing law enforcement presence.

Going on probably 6 years now, I've been thinking that instead of Under Tuluk as it existed, there should be a "Foreigners Quarter". Not as a have for crime, specifically, but as a place to keep people in one area. Over time, PCs would start using it as a "base of operations" of sorts, but frankly speaking the Templarate would have total control (... hah) over what goes in and out of there.

But, again... "Why would not want to be licensed" is the simple point. ICly, there's no reason not to. OOCly, its damned inconvenient, high pressure, and maybe you just want to "buck the system" and not get pointed out faster than an apartment-casting 'gick.

I would really like to point out that there is no reason to be inked as an artist if you don't want to take contracts or otherwise. Stealing things/Murdering things is just as illegal with the tattoo as it is without it, unless you have a contract.

Quote from: bcw81 on January 28, 2015, 07:46:30 PM

I would really like to point out that there is no reason to be inked as an artist if you don't want to take contracts or otherwise. Stealing things/Murdering things is just as illegal with the tattoo as it is without it, unless you have a contract.

I wonder though....

If you're contracted to kill Merchant Amos, and you do, but you also kill his three bodyguards because it was required to kill him....did you commit a crime?  I'm guessing that's up to "interpretation" by the Templarate.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 28, 2015, 08:07:09 PM

Quote from: bcw81 on January 28, 2015, 07:46:30 PM

I would really like to point out that there is no reason to be inked as an artist if you don't want to take contracts or otherwise. Stealing things/Murdering things is just as illegal with the tattoo as it is without it, unless you have a contract.

I wonder though....

If you're contracted to kill Merchant Amos, and you do, but you also kill his three bodyguards because it was required to kill him....did you commit a crime?  I'm guessing that's up to "interpretation" by the Templarate.

It's good to have friends in high places.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 28, 2015, 08:07:09 PM

Quote from: bcw81 on January 28, 2015, 07:46:30 PM

I would really like to point out that there is no reason to be inked as an artist if you don't want to take contracts or otherwise. Stealing things/Murdering things is just as illegal with the tattoo as it is without it, unless you have a contract.

I wonder though....

If you're contracted to kill Merchant Amos, and you do, but you also kill his three bodyguards because it was required to kill him....did you commit a crime?  I'm guessing that's up to "interpretation" by the Templarate.

If you're contracted to kill Merchant Amos and end up making a mess of it in the progress, you're not going to get a reputation as a very good Shadow Artist.

Or maybe sometimes you should do some investigating before you agree to the contract, you might just realize, nope, this is a bit more than I was after, sorry, find another artist, I'm off to fingerpaint tubers all over myself.

Quote from: Fujikoma on January 28, 2015, 11:53:14 PM
Or maybe sometimes you should do some investigating before you agree to the contract, you might just realize, nope, this is a bit more than I was after, sorry, find another artist, I'm off to fingerpaint tubers all over myself.

That's not how it works.

Well, then don't play a shadow artists, or I'll have to paint tubers on your boated corpse, and that's no fun at all.

To answer the question, "Why wouldn't you want to be licensed?".

Because maybe I want to play a criminal in Tuluk that is not an inked citizen.

Because maybe I don't want to answer to the templarate for every job I take.

Because maybe I don't want to be at the templarate's call any time they decide my services are needed.

Because maybe I don't want to be killed the first time I take a job for one Templar that another Templar doesn't approve of for personal reasons. (Been killed more than once for gaining one Templar's favor that another Templar disliked. If one Templar dislikes another, and you become a useful tool to that other Templar, you are basically just a weapon to be gotten rid of by the Templar that dislikes his brother/sister.)

Because maybe my concept isn't a "Loyal Shadowartist", but an actual criminal that works outside of the law....because I like playing actual criminals.

Being an inked "artist" in Tuluk is a very neat concept, but it isn't a criminal concept. You are doing things that the templarate has pre-approved, which makes it no longer illegal, which makes it no longer a crime, which makes you no longer a criminal. If you screw up big time and get "caught", you may be punished, but you aren't being punished for what you did, you are being punished for getting publically caught. This might sound the same to some people, but it isn't. It is the difference between playing Batman that Commissioner Gordon is best friends with and approves of secretly, and playing The Joker. Some people want to be The Joker.

A Templar will ONLY approve you doing a job they approve of. They aren't going to approve any actual crimes that contradict their own personal agenda. I want to play an actual criminal that works outside of the law system. I don't want to play what basically amounts to a Legion soldier with a different rank/designation/insignia and set of rules.

But that's just me.

For the people that will say, "Then play The Joker man, nobody is stopping you.". It would be a lot like playing The Joker if Commissioner Gordon had a GPS monitoring system on his ankle and a radio collar that transmitted everything he said right to his office.

Now to get to the root of the entire conversation. The reason I want it to be easier to play The Joker type criminals (real criminals) in Tuluk, is because it is just infinitely more exciting. It adds a lot more intrigue and danger to the city, and danger and intrigue attracts more players.

I kind of hate how often I agree with Desertman these days.

I had a shadow artist twice and BOTH times I blew it by dying to npcs within five rooms of the gates because I am a permanoob. Before I could take on a single contract.  :'(

I'm probably all mixed up and please feel free to correct me, but I thought you could be licensed without being a shadow artist? Meaning that you are still 'licensed' to do petty crimes and the Templars might give you a pass if you ever get caught and then you could also sign up as a shadow artist which then makes Templars hire you for jobs and such.

So I take it you can't be a petty licensed criminal without being a shadow artist as well anymore?

There's also the fact that Staff keeps telling us lately that the time of Templars knowing everything that's being done and everyone's little secrets in Tuluk is gone as well. So that should definitely help as well.

Quote from: Malken on January 29, 2015, 10:45:02 AM
I'm probably all mixed up and please feel free to correct me, but I thought you could be licensed without being a shadow artist? Meaning that you are still 'licensed' to do petty crimes and the Templars might give you a pass if you ever get caught and then you could also sign up as a shadow artist which then makes Templars hire you for jobs and such.

So I take it you can't be a petty licensed criminal without being a shadow artist as well anymore?

There's also the fact that Staff keeps telling us lately that the time of Templars knowing everything that's being done and everyone's little secrets in Tuluk is gone as well. So that should definitely help as well.

To my knowledge, if you become licensed, even if you never move up the ranks you are still classified as a Shadow Artist and still at the templarate's call.

One might argue that you would be at the templarate's call regardless of if you were a licensed criminal or not....they are templars. The difference is since I got licensed I have given them my name and sdesc willingly instead of staying hidden, so now, I am pretty much in their global cell phone directory....and their cell phones are POWERFUL.

The documentation still reflects that the northern templarate has strong powers of the mind. I would assume that is still accurate.

QuoteTuluki citizens tend to maintain fierce and true feelings of loyalty and almost love towards their Sun King. However, they may well simultaneously feel fear from His Faithful that are empowered with abilities of the mind and body that He grants them.

Take care not to confuse "easily playable concept" with "playable concept."  Playing an unlicensed criminal is a playable concept, but it is a difficult one that will depend upon one's skill at roleplay and schmoozing (moreso than the equivalent elsewhere).

It is also possible to mix up actual documented systems with what you might think that documented system does.  For instance:

Quote from: Desertman on January 29, 2015, 10:17:36 AM
Because maybe I don't want to answer to the templarate for every job I take.

Not quite how it works, but close enough that I wouldn't quibble over this--there are other things you have misconstrued in a bigger way.

QuoteBecause maybe I don't want to be at the templarate's call any time they decide my services are needed.

You can also tell them no, especially if you have a good reason.

QuoteBecause maybe I don't want to be killed the first time I take a job for one Templar that another Templar doesn't approve of for personal reasons. (Been killed more than once for gaining one Templar's favor that another Templar disliked. If one Templar dislikes another, and you become a useful tool to that other Templar, you are basically just a weapon to be gotten rid of by the Templar that dislikes his brother/sister.)

This has never happened under this system.  This is an example of the disagreement that some players have about the system, where it is documented one way, staff says it works that way, and some players say that it just doesn't work that way, even though it does.

QuoteBeing an inked "artist" in Tuluk is a very neat concept, but it isn't a criminal concept. You are doing things that the templarate has pre-approved, which makes it no longer illegal, which makes it no longer a crime, which makes you no longer a criminal. If you screw up big time and get "caught", you may be punished, but you aren't being punished for what you did, you are being punished for getting publically caught. This might sound the same to some people, but it isn't. It is the difference between playing Batman that Commissioner Gordon is best friends with and approves of secretly, and playing The Joker. Some people want to be The Joker.

Why complain that an apple isn't an orange?  Obviously, you prefer a different concept, so play that concept and don't play a licensed shadow artist; no one is forcing you to do that.

QuoteA Templar will ONLY approve you doing a job they approve of. They aren't going to approve any actual crimes that contradict their own personal agenda. I want to play an actual criminal that works outside of the law system. I don't want to play what basically amounts to a Legion soldier with a different rank/designation/insignia and set of rules.

But that's just me.

It is just you.  This is not how it works.  

So the templarate is required to approve jobs that they don't want to approve even if they have personal reasons for not wanting that job to take place?

Very interesting.

Also, if you become extremely useful to one Templar that another Templar dislikes in Tuluk, they aren't allowed to dispose of you?

Also very interesting.

And yes, of course you can tell a Templar no. You've always been able to tell Templar's no. I'm just not so sure that is going to work out great for you unless there is a rule in place saying they can't harm you now for telling them no.

can you special app a PC that already has shadow artist inks? Maybe this isn't a good question to ask in this thread, but now Nyr posted so maybe...

Quote from: Nyr on January 29, 2015, 10:57:43 AM

Why complain that an apple isn't an orange?  Obviously, you prefer a different concept, so play that concept and don't play a licensed shadow artist; no one is forcing you to do that.

The reason I'm complaining talking about this is that it is my opinion that a system that promotes or at least less aggressively stamps out less structured crime is more exciting and in general would promote more roleplay opportunities and fun in Tuluk for a lot of people.

That is a matter of opinion on my part. I'm fine with us having different opinions on that front.

Quote from: Desertman on January 29, 2015, 11:11:01 AM

Quote from: Nyr on January 29, 2015, 10:57:43 AM

Why complain that an apple isn't an orange?  Obviously, you prefer a different concept, so play that concept and don't play a licensed shadow artist; no one is forcing you to do that.

The reason I'm complaining talking about this is that it is my opinion that a system that promotes or at least less aggressively stamps out less structured crime is more exciting and in general would promote more roleplay opportunities and fun in Tuluk for a lot of people.

That is a matter of opinion on my part. I'm fine with us having different opinions on that front.

I think it highly depends on what sort of crime we're talking about, too.. If you're wanting to start a Guild-like band of criminals in Tuluk, then yeah, you might need Templar approval for sure at first.

But if we're talking petty crimes and the like, the 'harassing' type of crimes as I like to call them, then you could certainly play under the radar easily (I've done so in the last few months, never had any problem with the law), as long as you don't get caught, it's not hard at all. Sure, you might have that one bored Legion PC who's always on your case because you're not in silks and not f-me like, but that's rare.

And so what if you get caught and you're made to be 'licensed'? The Templars are not looking to hire every shitty pickpockets in the city. Unless you go around telling others that you're the best assassin since Muk Utep's mother-in-law, nobody is going to hire someone who's best crime is stealing chunks of bread from bards in the Poet's Circle.

Again, from what I've read and heard, things are changing for the best in Tuluk, crime and non-gps-Templar wise, so maybe you can give it a shot, start small, and see how things are and how they evolve, you might be pleasantly surprised.

(Now remember that this is coming from the most cynical dude on the GDB, so you know you can somewhat trust my words when I say that I think things are changing for the best in an area of the game ;p )

I don't give my stamp of approval for cheap, son.

Quote from: Desertman on January 29, 2015, 11:00:36 AM
So the templarate is required to approve jobs that they don't want to approve even if they have personal reasons for not wanting that job to take place?

Very interesting.

QuoteThe templarate acts as a broker, and will not reject a contract for any reasons other than the hiring party's lack of social status or their being unable to pay the established fee.

There's loads to read into that.  It doesn't tie their hands; they do have options.  However, the system is set up to have templars be brokers.

QuoteAlso, if you become extremely useful to one Templar that another Templar dislikes in Tuluk, they aren't allowed to dispose of you?

Also very interesting.

No.  They can.  

The problem is that you're associating "extremely useful to one Templar" with "doing a lot of shadow artist jobs" or maybe even "being a successful shadow artist", which is then implying that the shadow artist is working for that templar.  That is incorrect, just like the assumption that shadow artists are the direct tools of the templarate.

Quote
And yes, of course you can tell a Templar no. You've always been able to tell Templar's no. I'm just not so sure that is going to work out great for you unless there is a rule in place saying they can't harm you now for telling them no.

The documentation does cover this in multiple places.  It was revised with such a caveat in place because players gave lots of feedback on it.

Quote from: Miko on January 29, 2015, 11:04:55 AM
can you special app a PC that already has shadow artist inks? Maybe this isn't a good question to ask in this thread, but now Nyr posted so maybe...

Sure.

That's actually very insightful and helpful and pointed out some things I hadn't taken notice of in terms of playing a Shadow Artist.

The crux of my argument is that the current system does in a lot of ways squash more "independent crime" opportunities a bit too heavy handedly that would otherwise add to the overall enjoyment and popularity of Tuluk. But, that is just my feeling on the issue based on my own experiences. I just like proposing things that I think would help. (I know I don't have a staffer's global viewpoint and only the viewpoint of a player, but, we work with what we have.)

Quote from: Nyr on January 29, 2015, 11:18:58 AM

Quote
And yes, of course you can tell a Templar no. You've always been able to tell Templar's no. I'm just not so sure that is going to work out great for you unless there is a rule in place saying they can't harm you now for telling them no.

The documentation does cover this in multiple places.  It was revised with such a caveat in place because players gave lots of feedback on it.

I like it.

Quote from: Malken on January 29, 2015, 11:17:43 AM

Quote from: Desertman on January 29, 2015, 11:11:01 AM

Quote from: Nyr on January 29, 2015, 10:57:43 AM

Why complain that an apple isn't an orange?  Obviously, you prefer a different concept, so play that concept and don't play a licensed shadow artist; no one is forcing you to do that.

The reason I'm complaining talking about this is that it is my opinion that a system that promotes or at least less aggressively stamps out less structured crime is more exciting and in general would promote more roleplay opportunities and fun in Tuluk for a lot of people.

That is a matter of opinion on my part. I'm fine with us having different opinions on that front.

I think it highly depends on what sort of crime we're talking about, too.. If you're wanting to start a Guild-like band of criminals in Tuluk, then yeah, you might need Templar approval for sure at first.

But if we're talking petty crimes and the like, the 'harassing' type of crimes as I like to call them, then you could certainly play under the radar easily (I've done so in the last few months, never had any problem with the law), as long as you don't get caught, it's not hard at all. Sure, you might have that one bored Legion PC who's always on your case because you're not in silks and not f-me like, but that's rare.

And so what if you get caught and you're made to be 'licensed'? The Templars are not looking to hire every shitty pickpockets in the city. Unless you go around telling others that you're the best assassin since Muk Utep's mother-in-law, nobody is going to hire someone who's best crime is stealing chunks of bread from bards in the Poet's Circle.

Again, from what I've read and heard, things are changing for the best in Tuluk, crime and non-gps-Templar wise, so maybe you can give it a shot, start small, and see how things are and how they evolve, you might be pleasantly surprised.

(Now remember that this is coming from the most cynical dude on the GDB, so you know you can somewhat trust my words when I say that I think things are changing for the best in an area of the game ;p )

I don't give my stamp of approval for cheap, son.

I don't disagree that I like the direction it has been going. There is just a direction I would personally like to see it go beyond the path it is on.

You hear about a lot of notorious criminals in Allanak. I've played a couple. The guys that the law is on the heels of constantly and might take a long time to catch up with, if they ever do...etc...etc...

That is exciting for me.

I'm trying to think of one name in the last few years that ever came out of/operated in Tuluk that fit a similar bill...and I can't. I can think of a half dozen out of Allanak.

I think that is a more exciting gaming experience and adds a lot to the gameplay opportunities and the atmosphere of the world for victims, heroes, criminals, and law enforcement. I think it makes it more fun, and I think having something that would help promote those types in Tuluk, or at least less aggressively knock them down, would make more people enjoy Tuluk more. (I want people to enjoy Tuluk more.)

Wisp, is a good start, and great example of a Templarate lackey that outgrew just being a simple "Shadow Artist".

Quote from: Down Under on January 29, 2015, 11:31:56 AM
Wisp, is a good start, and great example of a Templarate lackey that outgrew just being a simple "Shadow Artist".

If it has been over a year and wouldn't conflict with current plotlines etc...I would be interested to hear about them just out of curiosity. (The name is unfamiliar to me.)

On paper, the system is going to say that licensed crime is the way to go, etc, and only vaguely hint at unlicensed stuff.  In actuality, these things swing on a pendulum just like other areas of the game.

It's been well over a year, but it wasn't my character, so I will only say that they had a network of spies/criminal lackeys, acted quite viciously (killed more people than I can count really), were kind of twinky, but definitely acted within and without the bounds of the system. This was pre all the recent changes, but I definitely think it's almost more possible now than before.

Keep in mind that Templars in Tuluk aren't shining beacons of hope and justice (at least, not anymore). If there's something nasty going on, they probably just want a piece of it. If you're an idiot and don't make the right bribes, then Templars don't look the other way. It's pretty straight-forward, really. They may be 'potent' but not 'omnipotent'.

I think you'd be surprised how easy unlicensed crime is in Tuluk, if you actually gave it a good college try.

Can a middle-rank GMH non-inked PC use the shadow artist system? Or are they still basically just there to be targets as their 'participation' in the system.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on January 29, 2015, 11:46:57 AM
Can a middle-rank GMH non-inked PC use the shadow artist system? Or are they still basically just there to be targets as their 'participation' in the system.

Correct, you cannot use the system. One of the best ways to create a vortex of butthurt is to use your citizenship and social rank to oppress indies.

Quote from: Down Under on January 29, 2015, 11:43:53 AM
It's been well over a year, but it wasn't my character, so I will only say that they had a network of spies/criminal lackeys, acted quite viciously (killed more people than I can count really), were kind of twinky, but definitely acted within and without the bounds of the system. This was pre all the recent changes, but I definitely think it's almost more possible now than before.

Keep in mind that Templars in Tuluk aren't shining beacons of hope and justice (at least, not anymore). If there's something nasty going on, they probably just want a piece of it. If you're an idiot and don't make the right bribes, then Templars don't look the other way. It's pretty straight-forward, really. They may be 'potent' but not 'omnipotent'.

I think you'd be surprised how easy unlicensed crime is in Tuluk, if you actually gave it a good college try.

Oh I'm sure it's possible if you pay off the right people. Keeping in mind, paying off the right people is fundamentally the same system as paying for getting a license. It is being licensed, without calling it a license. I've paid off northern Templars before after committing a crime and walked away. I know how to work the system to make the crime "legal". The difference is if you get caught, refuse to pay the bribe/license fee, and then go on to being notorious in Tuluk....does the city have sufficient avenues in place to let you continue playing that role/is it too heavy handed in stamping out/squashing that possibility...the role of an actual criminal and not a de-facto licensed criminal? I don't think it does, which is why you really don't hear about them.

Quote from: Desertman on January 29, 2015, 11:34:04 AM

Quote from: Down Under on January 29, 2015, 11:31:56 AM
Wisp, is a good start, and great example of a Templarate lackey that outgrew just being a simple "Shadow Artist".

If it has been over a year and wouldn't conflict with current plotlines etc...I would be interested to hear about them just out of curiosity. (The name is unfamiliar to me.)

Quote from: Down Under on January 29, 2015, 11:43:53 AM
It's been well over a year, but it wasn't my character, so I will only say that they had a network of spies/criminal lackeys, acted quite viciously (killed more people than I can count really), were kind of twinky, but definitely acted within and without the bounds of the system. This was pre all the recent changes, but I definitely think it's almost more possible now than before.

Keep in mind that Templars in Tuluk aren't shining beacons of hope and justice (at least, not anymore). If there's something nasty going on, they probably just want a piece of it. If you're an idiot and don't make the right bribes, then Templars don't look the other way. It's pretty straight-forward, really. They may be 'potent' but not 'omnipotent'.

I think you'd be surprised how easy unlicensed crime is in Tuluk, if you actually gave it a good college try.

The PC in question was not a criminal but a templarate lackey. In practice also more of a templarate operative than a shadow artist.

I'm guessing that most of the notorious mundane criminals from Allanak were somehow associated with the Labyrinth. With the absence of that kind of environment in Tuluk, there hasn't been that kind of notable criminal (ie, individuals openly at odds with the templarate while operating in the city) since UnderTuluk was destroyed in 2009, afaik.

Edited to add: One also has to consider that just about everyone will stand to lose a lot of status if being caught working with/employing unlicensed thieves/killers etc. It mostly isn't worth it for interested parties to take that route.

^ This.

Also, think about what the functional difference is between a templar in Tuluk who wants to catch someone who committed an unlicensed assassination in Tuluk vs. a templar in Allanak that wants to catch an assassin that didn't pay the templar first to make sure the law looked the other way. I would argue there isn't any.

There is nothing actually stopping anyone from pursuing unlicensed crime in Tuluk that is different from stopping people from pursuing un-templar-approved crime in Allanak. Tuluk has a formalized system of corruption whereas it's off the books in Allanak. To use Elder Scrolls references because I can't think of anything else to say about this, Tuluk is like the Morag Tong of Morrowind while Allanak has the Dark Brotherhood. Both will kill for powerful people, but only one has written and accepted proof that that's their job and there is no need to interfere too much.

Over the past several years there seemed to be a common perception that there is some sort of thing in Tuluk that stopped crime, and I can't really argue that they were correct or not, but we're in different times now and now is what matters. The more players in general base their perception of the game on what is happening in the game right now, rather than what happened years ago, the easier it is to actually appreciate the game itself.

Quote from: Nergal on January 29, 2015, 12:03:52 PM
Also, think about what the functional difference is between a templar in Tuluk who wants to catch someone who committed an unlicensed assassination in Tuluk vs. a templar in Allanak that wants to catch an assassin that didn't pay the templar first to make sure the law looked the other way. I would argue there isn't any.

There is nothing actually stopping anyone from pursuing unlicensed crime in Tuluk that is different from stopping people from pursuing un-templar-approved crime in Allanak. Tuluk has a formalized system of corruption whereas it's off the books in Allanak. To use Elder Scrolls references because I can't think of anything else to say about this, Tuluk is like the Morag Tong of Morrowind while Allanak has the Dark Brotherhood. Both will kill for powerful people, but only one has written and accepted proof that that's their job and there is no need to interfere too much.

Over the past several years there seemed to be a common perception that there is some sort of thing in Tuluk that stopped crime, and I can't really argue that they were correct or not, but we're in different times now and now is what matters. The more players in general base their perception of the game on what is happening in the game right now, rather than what happened years ago, the easier it is to actually appreciate the game itself.

I think the functional difference isn't in "How does the templarate respond if you pay them first.", I agree that is much the same at the end of the day. I really like the Elder Scrolls reference and I agree completely.

The fundamental difference lies in "What are your options if you want to play a criminal that doesn't pay them at all/refuses to kneel to the system?". (A real criminal).

The difference is a rinth-like area where crime/criminals can thrive and criminals can prosper/retreat to in relative safety until their next heist/crime.

As for the perception that there is some sort of thing in Tuluk that stopped crime outside of the lack of a lawless area, I hope that has changed for the better. The thing being discussed is the documented mind powers of the templarate of Tuluk that in a lot of ways made it almost impossible to work outside of the law for reasons most of us know. If that particular facet of the northern templarate has changed (though the documentation still notes it) then I think we have gone a long way in the right direction to making truly illegal crime/criminals more viable in Tuluk.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on January 29, 2015, 11:46:57 AM
Can a middle-rank GMH non-inked PC use the shadow artist system?

Sure.  However, as written now, you have to go through a patron, which might mean greasing some palms.  If you are a mid-ranked GMH non-inked PC, you are probably used to doing that.  Additionally, if you are such a member of a GMH, you might have other options.  Talk to your staff about possibilities.

Quote from: Nyr on January 29, 2015, 12:13:18 PM

Quote from: KankWhisperer on January 29, 2015, 11:46:57 AM
Can a middle-rank GMH non-inked PC use the shadow artist system?

Sure.  However, as written now, you have to go through a patron, which might mean greasing some palms.  If you are a mid-ranked GMH non-inked PC, you are probably used to doing that.  Additionally, if you are such a member of a GMH, you might have other options.  Talk to your staff about possibilities.

This is very non inclusive and really doesn't make any sense. You can't participate, the patron can. You are adding another layer of people who now know your plans. Middle rank lifesworn GMH has to get a patron to have some grebber offed? That system sucks. Sends the message just don't come here.

Each to their own; what might be a solution for one player (or one situation, even) may be untenable for another player.

However, if you do happen to be in such a position and want to have some grebber offed, might I recommend communicating that to your clan staff, as suggested previously?  Everyone's situation is different and we can't give a blanket answer that will suit every scenario. 

Quote from: Desertman on January 29, 2015, 12:09:41 PM
As for the perception that there is some sort of thing in Tuluk that stopped crime outside of the lack of a lawless area, I hope that has changed for the better. The thing being discussed is the documented mind powers of the templarate of Tuluk that in a lot of ways made it almost impossible to work outside of the law for reasons most of us know. If that particular facet of the northern templarate has changed (though the documentation still notes it) then I think we have gone a long way in the right direction to making truly illegal crime/criminals more viable in Tuluk.

Trust me when I say this - The documentation for the powers that be is to help you along. You're not going to come up against those superpowers unless you are seriously pissing off all the wrong people. In fact, most of the superpowers that made it easy for them back in the day have been massively toned down. So long as you aren't twink-stealing every piece of furniture in every apartment building in the period of an hour, you're most likely not going to draw the attention of the evil overlords. (Or more likely, someone's going to report you to them and they're going to say "Why the fuck do I care?")

Quote from: Nyr on January 29, 2015, 01:03:38 PM
Each to their own; what might be a solution for one player (or one situation, even) may be untenable for another player.

However, if you do happen to be in such a position and want to have some grebber offed, might I recommend communicating that to your clan staff, as suggested previously?  Everyone's situation is different and we can't give a blanket answer that will suit every scenario. 

I am sure it is possible to do, I just don't get why it's been made so -hard- to do. The last thing this game needs is more bureaucracy.

It should be made simple as this:

If I am on your social level or higher than I can go to the templar and -participate- in Tuluk.
If I try and go higher, then that's when I should have to get a patron or talk to the clan staff.

ALso, can a inked grebber NOT put a hit on a middle ranked GMH employee?
Otherwise I think you need to clarify that any inked person is of higher social status than any non-inked person.
Or just clarify what the social rankings in Tuluk mean related to the Shadow Artist system, if anything.
I think I would participate in Tuluk more if I could participate and not just be simply a target.

Allanak's environment supports crime much more than Tuluk does, and I don't think Tuluki PC crime levels are going to look like Allanak's at any time until that is changed.

Allanak has a crimcode-free environment for people to train their unsavory skills at their leisure, it has a coded clan that helps coordination a lot, it has a banned substance that criminals can make a lot of money with, and even a source of free water for any sneakily aligned person to get at whenever they feel like it.

The only thing Tuluk has to compare is a sort of system where the templarate can act as a proxy for wealthy, influential people who want to get shit done in the dark.

(Please note that these very much are not people we'd call criminals)

Tuluk is a very good place if what you want to do is play some kind if hypercompetent ninja person for hire, or a lackey to someone being a robber baron.

If you just want to get by as a petty mugger, pickpocket, smuggler, want to become fucking don elf corleone, or not deal with templars at all because they scare the crap out of you, I'm not sure why you'd choose Tuluk over Allanak at all.

Again, this is fine if enough people like it. But judging from this very poll at least, 1 in 5 or so people don't.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on January 29, 2015, 02:08:43 PM
foreigner use of the shadow artist system

God forbid being a citizen would confer some advantages over non-citizens in your own city-state.

I forgot to add to the listing in my post that in Allanak, people not from around there can hang out wherever they want, though.I don't truly think that's such a big deal.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 29, 2015, 02:25:43 PM

Quote from: KankWhisperer on January 29, 2015, 02:08:43 PM
foreigner use of the shadow artist system

God forbid being a citizen would confer some advantages over non-citizens in your own city-state.

Well I thought it was a caste system and not simply inks > all non inks. Do GMH have status or not. Just clarify it. Say they don't and we can go from there.

It would depend on whether that GMH is inked or not. The Caste system simply isn't Slaves<Indie commoners<GMH<Nobles<Templars. What city that GMH is nominally a citizen of has some import.

Quote from: Patuk on January 29, 2015, 02:27:44 PM
I forgot to add to the listing in my post that in Allanak, people not from around there can hang out wherever they want, though.I don't truly think that's such a big deal.

Not exactly true.

Every time i've played a Northerner in Allanak (usually in the Byn), they get real scared to talk in public for a good reason.

Quote from: Down Under on January 29, 2015, 02:38:02 PM

Quote from: Patuk on January 29, 2015, 02:27:44 PM
I forgot to add to the listing in my post that in Allanak, people not from around there can hang out wherever they want, though.I don't truly think that's such a big deal.

Not exactly true.

Every time i've played a Northerner in Allanak (usually in the Byn), they get real scared to talk in public for a good reason.

That is a relatively new thing since the battle of Tyn Dashra, but a thing/change I personally like. In Allanak you are hated because as a Northerner you are basically a war criminal...it has nothing to do with the level of grit/nasty/evil you actually are or what side of "the law" you find yourself on. You are a criminal by association.

*You can be the nicest person in the Known and still be shunned/scorned/killed just for being inked in Allanak.

*Unless you have an organization like a House to protect you.

Quote from: Down Under on January 29, 2015, 02:38:02 PM

Quote from: Patuk on January 29, 2015, 02:27:44 PM
I forgot to add to the listing in my post that in Allanak, people not from around there can hang out wherever they want, though.I don't truly think that's such a big deal.

Not exactly true.

Every time i've played a Northerner in Allanak (usually in the Byn), they get real scared to talk in public for a good reason.

This isn't a coded thing, though. It's entirely PC-created. And I've had much the same thing happen in Tuluk repeatedly. I'd say both city-states do this just fine.

I also agree about it being a good thing.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 29, 2015, 02:36:02 PM
It would depend on whether that GMH is inked or not. The Caste system simply isn't Slaves<Indie commoners<GMH<Nobles<Templars. What city that GMH is nominally a citizen of has some import.

No shit.

That doesn't mean midlevel GMH should be at the bottom because of non inks. They should be below an equivalent ranked citizen.

And one particular GMH's family never appears to be inked period.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on January 29, 2015, 02:51:37 PM

And one particular GMH's family never appears to be inked period.

And what does that imply about that particular GMH's status in the city?

-redacted- might have been a little too IC there, sorry. :-\

Quote from: Patuk on January 29, 2015, 02:15:06 PM
Allanak's environment supports crime much more than Tuluk does, and I don't think Tuluki PC crime levels are going to look like Allanak's at any time until that is changed.

Allanak has a crimcode-free environment for people to train their unsavory skills at their leisure, it has a coded clan that helps coordination a lot, it has a banned substance that criminals can make a lot of money with, and even a source of free water for any sneakily aligned person to get at whenever they feel like it.

The only thing Tuluk has to compare is a sort of system where the templarate can act as a proxy for wealthy, influential people who want to get shit done in the dark.

(Please note that these very much are not people we'd call criminals)

Tuluk is a very good place if what you want to do is play some kind if hypercompetent ninja person for hire, or a lackey to someone being a robber baron.

If you just want to get by as a petty mugger, pickpocket, smuggler, want to become fucking don elf corleone, or not deal with templars at all because they scare the crap out of you, I'm not sure why you'd choose Tuluk over Allanak at all.

Again, this is fine if enough people like it. But judging from this very poll at least, 1 in 5 or so people don't.

Even if I agreed with you on Tuluk lacking elements that Allanak has that supports criminal RP, we can't graft features onto Tuluk to make it analogical to Allanak or else it loses its uniqueness, and ultimately what makes Tuluk compelling to those who already like the city.

I don't agree with you not because I feel Tuluk has these elements - because for the most part, it doesn't - but that you're putting too much stock into what Allanak has. The 'rinth isn't a training zone for criminals, it's a dangerous place where people who "train" there are often killed by the clan that's in there or by the NPCs. Taking the water is theft and can have severe consequences if caught, whether by PCs or NPCs.

That being said, Tuluk, as an environment, lets petty criminals exist but perhaps in a lower-risk, lower-reward manner. You can scrape by as a criminal in Tuluk just as much as in Allanak provided you take a different approach. Both in theory and in practice, it's not nearly as binary as your post or even the poll would suggest, which at the moment amounts to 50% of respondents liking Tuluk as it is - which, considering it's half of the two major playing locations, is really not that bad. As a Tuluk staffer I would love for it to be 100% or even satisfy the 1 in 5 you mentioned, but I realize that's not realistic either. People are going to have their own tastes and while staff enjoys feedback from players, making Tuluk into 2.Allanak isn't going to help in the long run. Examining what Tuluk is doing right and facilitating that better probably will.

I made a list detailing the way things are, not how they should be or have to be changed.

If you think things are fine or shouldn't be changed, that's okay. But if people ever wonder why everyone in Tuluk is a hunter or a wealthy aide or some bard, this is why.

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Caste%20Structure

You people talking about the Caste System should read this, it details it fairly well.

Quote from: Desertman on January 29, 2015, 02:45:58 PM

*You can be the nicest person in the Known and still be shunned/scorned/killed just for being inked nice in Allanak.

*Unless you have an organization like a House to protect you.

ftfy

Yar, I think I said somewhere earlier in this thread that making Tuluk more gritty and more appealing to gritty underclass commoners has to be a hard line to walk before you start turning it into Allanak 2.0, which nobody wants.

I don't think there is anything wrong with proposing ideas for a more "Tuluk-unique" equivalent of the things Allanak IS doing right that causes it to attract so many more gritty commoners. It doesn't mean we dislike Tuluk, it just means we want to make it better/more attractive to real commoners/less attractive to tressy-tresses/less top-heavy.

I did feel UnderTuluk provided an extremely unique yet equivalent area for the lawless. Tuluk is the sort of place where any criminal element is almost always going to have to operate underground, and for a while, you could do that both figuratively, AND literally...which I thought was awesome.

I wouldn't mind seeing old UnderTuluk reopened since all of that massive flooding sort of....stopped. What if this entire time after the water receded there has been a quiet organization that tunneled back down rebuilding their secret little under-city there? Yes, it would basically be the "Under Rinth" of Tuluk, but, it always felt so much different than the Rinth in Allanak. I never felt like it was just "Tuluk's Rinth". I personally liked it a lot and felt it added a lot to Tuluk.

Things like that.

There's clearly some dissonance between criminal players and Tuluk.  That's the fact of the matter.  Personally, when I play a criminal, I do so because I want to be a bit of an anarchist.  I don't want "the man" to tell me what to do.  That doesn't mean I won't scrape and bow, and get scared shitless if the man shows up on my front door...but to actually seek this person out seems at odd's with the psychology of a criminal.  But, as many others have said before, shadow artists aren't criminals.  They're agents of the state, with social rank and privledge, and seem like they should be treated as separate from the criminal discussion.  To say "there's legal crime in Tuluk" is a bit of a confusing statement to make in the documentation.  In fact, it should instead say there's rogue-like work to be had in Tuluk directly from the government.

What's stopping true crime from occurring in Tuluk with the frequency that we'd like?  The powers of the Templarate, the lack of any safe haven once you're wanted, and the causality dilemma of the city-state not being as popular, and thus criminally minded players would rather set up shop in greener pastures.  There's also a tendency for thuggish criminals to be brazen and in your face, an attitude that perhaps doesn't mesh well in Tuluk.  

Even for subtle criminal types (thieves/burglars), Tuluk just doesn't seem like a ripe place to ply your trade.  I remember playing a Gypsy burglar once and as far as my PC at the time could tell...it would be horribly stupid to steal anything in Tuluk.  There just wasn't any profit to be had in it.  More likely to be caught, and if caught, the penalties were potentially much more severe.  Whereas in Allanak I knew that as long as I didn't rob anyone important, I could just give a Templar their cut (if I wanted to be proactive) or pay off the Templar that caught me with a much larger bribe (if I wanted to be reactive).  I didn't have to break the tribal (and perhaps criminal) tradition of being insular by sharing my plans with anybody.  

In my opinion, if the staff want crime in Tuluk, it's as simple as making documented routes of avoiding or reducing the consequences of being caught.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on January 29, 2015, 02:30:00 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 29, 2015, 02:25:43 PM

Quote from: KankWhisperer on January 29, 2015, 02:08:43 PM
foreigner use of the shadow artist system

God forbid being a citizen would confer some advantages over non-citizens in your own city-state.

Well I thought it was a caste system and not simply inks > all non inks. Do GMH have status or not. Just clarify it. Say they don't and we can go from there.

You're correct.  It is a caste system and not simply inks > all non-inks.  This is indicated in the documentation for the caste structure.

Documentation can always be improved.  At this point there is enough documentation for Tuluk that additions would probably be better made as combined adjustments that clarify and reduce the amount of documentation.  Documentation is also something that is intended to detail and expound on the rule far more than the exceptions.  This is what players and staff use to guide, back up, and justify IC action.

With that said, the GMHs are a special case, one that has been discussed and indeed one that is in the documentation in a few places, though (mentioned above) it could be improved.  This is a blurb from this page (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Caste%20Structure):

QuoteIndependent social status (status that is completely dissociated from affiliation, employment, birth, or partisanship) is very rare. It is more far more common to see social status from affiliation than not.

You can gain social status from affiliation.  On that same page, there exists a chart detailing a general guideline of where groups and ranks sit in the general social order.  Affiliation (employment, partisanship, or even enslavement) with any of those groups affects your social status, in general.  You'll notice that there is a whole section for the Merchant Caste, and that the Merchant Caste is specifically tailored towards the Great Merchant Houses as those are the most common types of affiliated merchants.  At the top of that is Head of House.  A GMH Head of House, in general, has as much social sway, power, and influence in Tuluk (and likely equivalent for Allanak) as senior family for a noble house or a high templar.

You'll see also that another Tuluki document is meant to be used in conjunction with the chart, as the chart page is very minimal.  This page is more detailed:

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Social%20Hierarchy

On this page, we have a section specifically for description of each "sub-caste."  Here is what it has first for the commoner caste:

QuoteOverall, this caste consists of the majority of Tuluki citizens. The subdivisions below are meant to group commoners into four major areas (sub-castes). These sub-castes have no particular supremacy over each other.

This is important.

Merchants (relevant parts bolded):

QuoteThis sub-caste consists mainly of Great Merchant House family and those enjoying higher ranks within those organizations. Great Merchant Houses are established and powerful monopolies that have garnered massive amounts of influence due to their wealthy and broad reach. It is possible for a commoner to gain social status with employment from a Great Merchant House, or even with a partisan agreement with one. It is much more rare and unlikely that a commoner would gain social status without that affiliation. Great Merchant Houses are organizations that span the Known World. As such, those Great Merchant House employees who are able to claim citizenship may have a slightly higher social status then those who cannot - especially in legal matters. However, since the social power of the Great Merchant House is largely a function of their tremendous wealth and not any perceived quality of character, the differences are minor. Each Great Merchant House treats their crafting, military and hunter branches uniquely. For more information on relative social status, representatives of those houses may provide information in-game.

So with that said, the implication for social rank is that GMH people of rank have social rank in Tuluk regardless of their citizenship; a special case existing for them and others that might fall into the merchant caste category (T'zai Byn for example).  There isn't really any equivalent to this anywhere else in the Known World--any organization that spans the Known will have special privilege and favor to call upon.  As this documentation existed prior to the revised shadow artist system, we probably could see about incorporating that into the shadow artist docs.  The challenge would be in figuring out wording. 

Either way, though, as it stands right now...you have options if you have rank in a GMH, regardless of citizenship...and you can also talk to your clan staff about those options!

If you're mid-level merchant house, why the fuck do you give a fuck about Amos the dirty grebber... wait, I can see how this could become a concern, but at the same time, you should be so far beyond his power-level that such a conquest is trivial to you. To you, he is a bug you allow to exist even if it's displeasing, well, until he gets frisky and tries some shit, and then it's ON.

I'm just here so I don't get disappeared.

Quote from: Rathustra on January 30, 2015, 11:53:21 AM
I'm just here so I don't get disappeared.

Aide Rathustra? I never had an aide Rathustra. They must have never existed.

I really enjoy Tukuk nowadays.

Quote from: Inks on January 31, 2015, 10:22:59 AM
I really enjoy Tukuk nowadays.

Quote from: Barsook on January 31, 2015, 10:40:21 AM

Quote from: Inks on January 31, 2015, 10:22:59 AM
I really enjoy Tukuk nowadays.

Oops. Wrong thread.


eeditedd

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 31, 2015, 10:44:46 AM
Oops. Wrong thread.


eeditedd

Quote from: Malken on January 31, 2015, 12:53:34 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 31, 2015, 10:44:46 AM
Oops. Wrong thread.


eeditedd

I think where you really started the game, and where you first got really ingrained into things has a heavy effect on where you are willing to play or what you put up with later as a player. On the subject of playing in Tuluk, I've played for a little bit now, and because I started in Allanak I feel that I'm spoiled for going to Tuluk. The caste system is a cool idea, and in truth, Allanak has its own. The difference I suppose is the rigidity of the caste system in Tuluk, and the more apparent limitations on the average person. In Allanak, the feeling is that you can be a nobody, with no substantial backing or background, and work your way up the social ladder, in a near limitless fashion.

This isn't true obviously, there is a glass ceiling, but become an absolute monster of a player, and you'll have Highborn in your head, who are practically your friends(though you would never claim it), you'll swim through social ladders like a hammer-headed dujat, and generally, you just won't feel like all of your time and effort to 'rise' is limited. It doesn't matter that in truth you'll never be more than a commoner in Allanak, because once you get good at whatever it is you do, people want you around, and the reality is that you -can- hold more power than the average nobleborn....well, it'll -feel- that way.

Again not necessarily true, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's a constant reminder, constant limitation upon your potential to be more than you are. Maybe its just my style of play that ruins Tuluk for me, but I like taking someone that's nothing or no one, and then rising from low or unknown origins to become a terrifying or just generally impressive person. The feeling of 'this is your caste, you never leave it, you stay within your caste, the best you can manage is a lifetime servitude to some merchant' isn't giving me the kicks I need to being willing to play there. I really liked some of the documentation suggesting that in the past there was this idea of some 'hunt' that offered extreme prestige, and the implication there was that if you're the best of the best, at whatever you do, you deserve to jump up the social ladder, unless I misunderstood it. As it is, the closest thing to this is the possibility to make your own 'clan' and merchant house. I really did like this, but considering the social structure in Tuluk, I'm much more likely to try making one of these in Allanak any day of the week.

I really don't want my first post on here to come off as a complaint by any means, and I don't mean it as such. Tuluk is perfectly fine the way it is, and though I would argue it a huge hassle in comparison to Allanak(where you can be from almost anywhere and experience the joys of leaving out any gate for example) I think it offers its own flavor and taste for players that like the rigid system. Some players may enjoy playing someone bound up in the possible political intrigue offered by a solid caste. I really do believe it's a matter of enjoying a flavor. I've tried to create characters there multiple times, but couldn't really get into it, and I'm sure that's because I started in Allanak. I don't know if I would necessarily say Allanak is more 'gritty' by any means though. Jus' as much murderin', betrayin', and corruptin' goin' on in the City-State of the Rising Sun best ah kin tell.

Tuluk has documented methods by which commoners can increase their social status and Allanak doesn't.

I don't find the Tuluki social system to be any more restrictive than Allanak's. It seems a great deal looser if anything, actually. I do think you can play a nobody in Allanak more effectively and for longer periods, because the "Flavor" of the establishment there is more dismissive of commoners and you have more middling organizations to disappear into. I think it'd be difficult to play a bog-standard commoner in Tuluk for any length of time without having a bunch of Lords, Templars, and others really wanting to recruit you to their cause.

I do feel that the "caste" system is really just a semantic difference and isn't as big a deal as some make it out to be. It's no coincidence that it maps almost exactly on to the Allanaki "Class" system, and there seems to be just as much mobility within the Commoner caste as there is within Allanak's Commoner class.

Dammit I'm sick of the thoughtful analysis from this 2 character nub.

Get on my level 100+ played.

(actual content)

It might be apt to consider Allanak as a city-divided to Tuluk as the the city-that-is-not. Or at least on a surface level it often seems that Allanak has been setup to actually be wedged apart by the factionalism in every corner of the city. As a common citizen in Allanak, you're set against gemmed, elves, 'rinthi, northies, 'rinthers etc. Which creates inevitable tensions during player interaction.

It seems to me that Tuluk lacks these internal wedges. If Allanak is a bunch of groups squished together by the yoke of the templarate. Tuluk is one group divided by an arbitrary caste system. There are few, or less pressures pressing Tuluk apart and many, many more pressures pressing inward into Tuluk from the outside. Think Kryl, southern agression etc. The tension is limited even more so by a templarate that prefers to disappear troublemakers quietly. Not to mentionl the culture of 'subtlty' that often smooths over that factionalism that occurs under the surface.

So that makes Tuluk a much less the 'us vs everyone' and a more 'insiders vs outsiders' kinda deal. This could at least partly explain the difference in flavor.

I was just a few days shy of 100 days played once. Then I took an arrow to the knee.

Tuluks is different. Allanaks is different.

Tuluk is cohesive, team playing (perhaps). Allanak is eryone jus' waitin' t'get a shot at m'back.

Quote from: senseofeven on February 03, 2015, 10:09:06 PM
Tuluks is different. Allanaks is different.

Tuluk is cohesive, team playing (perhaps). Allanak is eryone jus' waitin' t'get a shot at m'back.

I imagine Tuluk is only cohesive and team playing on the surface. Plenty of evidence IRL that there's fun-ruining assholes everywhere.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 02, 2015, 04:13:46 PM
I don't find the Tuluki social system to be any more restrictive than Allanak's. It seems a great deal looser if anything, actually. I do think you can play a nobody in Allanak more effectively and for longer periods, because the "Flavor" of the establishment there is more dismissive of commoners and you have more middling organizations to disappear into. I think it'd be difficult to play a bog-standard commoner in Tuluk for any length of time without having a bunch of Lords, Templars, and others really wanting to recruit you to their cause.

I do feel that the "caste" system is really just a semantic difference and isn't as big a deal as some make it out to be. It's no coincidence that it maps almost exactly on to the Allanaki "Class" system, and there seems to be just as much mobility within the Commoner caste as there is within Allanak's Commoner class.

+1. BadSkeelz has been my totem spirit lately.

The caste system of Tuluk has always felt like something that lives in the documentation to me, and not in the game itself. You're still basically either a Noble or a Commoner, and that's no different than from in Allanak. Despite there being a stated "caste system", you don't feel the difference between these castes as much as you do in Allanak. The Nobles all hang out at the bar with you (literally at the bar), and want to be your friend. Having a caste system is kind of irrelevant, because everyone is treated with this "thanks for saving our bacon!" post-occupation respect. Which is cool, the game doesn't need two "lay the commoner in the mud puddle and walk over him" cities. But the docs and the actual play of the city don't seem to mesh.

Everyone always throws out that qualifier for Tuluk of "on the surface".

Tuluk is gritty, it just doesn't appear that way....on the surface.

Tuluk is actually very backstabby, it just doesn't appear that way....on the surface.

The nobility and the templarate are just as gruesome as in Allanak, it just doesn't appear that way...on the surface.

Tuluk only appears cohesive and "team playing"...on the surface.

Tuluk only seems cleaner/more fancy.....on the surface.


The surface is what the majority of the playerbase in any given area sees and experiences. Most people will ONLY EVER experience "the surface". Maybe one problem might be that the majority of the people only ever see and experience what's "on the surface".

When the majority of the playerbase experiences only what's "on the surface", then that IS the play experience for that area.

In terms of attracting players and changing the "feel" and "experience" of an area...the only thing that matters on that front is "How does the majority experience this location.".

If the majority is only experiencing "the surface"....it doesn't really matter what's happening below the surface in terms of the feel/atmosphere/reality of the location.

Sure a few nobles and a handful of Templars all know what's "really happening". Good for them. To Joe commoner is it is tea and silk and everyone smiling happily to each other in every tavern regularly for their entire lives in the city. People who want to play truly gritty underclass commoners don't want that life, even if the player knows out of character what's happening "below the surface".

(I do believe steps are being taken to make things less "below the surface" however, and I'm glad to see that. If anything this is a post praising that change in direction.)

Quote from: Desertman on February 04, 2015, 04:27:14 PM

If the majority is only experiencing "the surface"....it doesn't really matter what's happening below the surface in terms of the feel/atmosphere/reality of the location.

This line of thinking has a lot of merits.  For instance, a friend has been urging me to read a series of books (11,000+ pages I'm told), with the prospect that perhaps 3 or 4 thousand pages in I'll really understand what is going on and it'll be super awesome.  I'm sorry, but reading 3-4 thousand pages in order to start enjoying myself just doesn't appeal to me at this point in my life.

The same is true for "subtle" plots in Armageddon.  I'm okay with having deep, secretive plots...so long as there are plenty of fun and exciting plots right there on the surface for everyone to enjoy. 

Quote from: wizturbo on February 04, 2015, 04:40:32 PM

Quote from: Desertman on February 04, 2015, 04:27:14 PM

If the majority is only experiencing "the surface"....it doesn't really matter what's happening below the surface in terms of the feel/atmosphere/reality of the location.

This line of thinking has a lot of merits.  For instance, a friend has been urging me to read a series of books (11,000+ pages I'm told), with the prospect that perhaps 3 or 4 thousand pages in I'll really understand what is going on and it'll be super awesome.  I'm sorry, but reading 3-4 thousand pages in order to start enjoying myself just doesn't appeal to me at this point in my life.

The same is true for "subtle" plots in Armageddon.  I'm okay with having deep, secretive plots...so long as there are plenty of fun and exciting plots right there on the surface for everyone to enjoy.  

I just meant that when the majority of players only ever see the easy going, we all work together for the Sun King, we all smile, we are all clean and orderly, we aren't criminals, and we never openly go after each other Tuluk.....that IS the play experience for Tuluk.

A handful of people might see the true "below the surface" cutthroat gritty nature of the city....but for the majority of the playerbase....that Tuluk doesn't exist.

If that Tuluk doesn't exist for the majority of the playerbase, then that Tuluk is irrelevant in terms of attracting players.

A great advertisement is, "Murder, corruption, betrayal!".

A great advertisement isn't, "Murder, corruption, betrayal....maybe one day if you play here long enough and get in with the right people....but probably you will never see it....in fact we have rules in place to kind of keep you from seeing it as much as possible because we are super subtle as a society.".

Quote from: wizturbo on February 04, 2015, 04:40:32 PM

Quote from: Desertman on February 04, 2015, 04:27:14 PM

If the majority is only experiencing "the surface"....it doesn't really matter what's happening below the surface in terms of the feel/atmosphere/reality of the location.

This line of thinking has a lot of merits.  For instance, a friend has been urging me to read a series of books (11,000+ pages I'm told), with the prospect that perhaps 3 or 4 thousand pages in I'll really understand what is going on and it'll be super awesome.  I'm sorry, but reading 3-4 thousand pages in order to start enjoying myself just doesn't appeal to me at this point in my life.

The same is true for "subtle" plots in Armageddon.  I'm okay with having deep, secretive plots...so long as there are plenty of fun and exciting plots right there on the surface for everyone to enjoy. 

I was just discussing this with someone the other day. I completely agree. What use is the most amazing story ever told if only 1% of the playerbase gets to truly share in it?

Quote from: Desertman on February 04, 2015, 04:43:31 PM

A great advertisement is, "Murder, corruption, betrayal!".

A great advertisement isn't, "Murder, corruption, betrayal....maybe one day if you play here long enough and get in with the right people....but probably you will never see it....in fact we have rules in place to kind of keep you from seeing it as much as possible because we are super subtle as a society.".

Agreed.  As the remnants of "Jiyan-Sel" dies a bloody death in Tuluk, hopefully M.C.B will replace it.  

I find it helpful to see the caste system as bloodlines. There's a heavier emphasis on your roots and bloodlines in general in Tuluk, which is why it's taboo to kank outsiders if you're trying to rise in 'society' - it's a huge dent in your reputation if discovered. If you're just a commoner who crafts furniture for a living, you'd know it was disapproved of by most and the pressure of society was against you, but it's up to you whether you give a shit.

A completely taboo crime is to kank across castes, unless it's a noble/faithful with a pleasure slave. If you attempt to cross these divides, you might create murky blood and hazier distinctions of whose blood is superior, and that upsets the order and a facet of control Muk exerts over his dominion.

There's a  common perception that Tuluk is posh, but I don't think it has to be. We're doing some stuff staffside to try and help represent this better, but we can't stop people playing their PCs a certain way. I don't think that an appreciation of art and culture is limited to posh people – nor is it exclusively Tuluki. Tulukis use it to express who they are and for propaganda, and it's part of their heritage across the caste spectrum. Nor need it be the kind of sophistication that's more western Victorian manners and etiquette rather than scheming and wheeling and dealing in an ancient hot place.

I can speak from experience here as I've played mostly gritty low-life commoners, including in Tuluk over the years and had a good time there, and I know others have too. It's hard though when there aren't many of you, as you stand out as an anomaly when you shouldn't do. It can also seem a bit cliquey as you can't always be so involved in the plots that are going on without being 'upper tier', and there aren't enough other pcs like you to have your own plots with. There's more that we as staff can do to try and facilitate this kind of role though, and we're working on that.

^^^One of the hardest parts about playing a gritty PC in Tuluk for me the few times I have attempted it has ALWAYS been how much I stand out to people. It makes it pretty hard to just fade into the background and be "common" when everyone looks at you like you are an anomaly.

"No really, you wouldn't care that I'm walking around with no shoes on and eating dirty tubers to survive. Really. I promise you wouldn't."

"I dare say you are wrong! Now come with me and let's get you shoed post haste!"

Y u do this to me? Just let me have bare foots and tuberz plz.

The bar for getting into plots in Tuluk is arguably pretty low - you have sponsored leaders who are taking on employees, involving them in plots, as well as partisans, involving them in even more. It's way too simplistic to imply that what's below the surface is inaccessible to the majority when Tuluk is set up the opposite way, gameplay-wise. Allanak is more or less the same way - the ways to get into the gritty, inner-city political plots of Allanak are more or less the same as in Tuluk. There has been, from time to time, a lack of player participation in the systems that keep Tuluk's plots oiled and running, but this, like everything else in the game, is cyclical. The more who are involved in patronage, in shadow artists, and in bards, the more in-city plots there are in Tuluk and the more that players get exposed to them.

As far as subtlety goes, I would say in Tuluk, the "us vs. them" mentality is represented in a subtle way whereas in Allanak it's more blatant. Beyond that it doesn't seem to affect plots in either city in ways that are described in some of the last few posts. Being "us" helps you get into plots in Tuluk, whereas being "us" in Allanak helps you get into plots in Allanak. It helps you not disappear in Tuluk whereas it helps you to not get thrown in the Arena in Allanak. It may not be a setting that appeals to everyone. But the goal of the staff members of the Northlands team right now is absolutely to make sure that a majority of Tuluk's plots are accessible to Tuluki citizens that make a basic effort to be a part of them. Not that this hasn't been more or less the case for the past several years, but it's definitely something we'd like to encourage through positive enforcement.

My question is if people don't like the different flavor that Tuluk is on the surface, and don't want to delve into the intricacies of what gives the place variety underneath the surface, what purpose does having another massive city even serve? It seems like most complaints about the city tend to come from it not being like Allanak.

It just fells like a lot of overlap for little payoff and a segregated player-base that 90% of the players never feel any interaction with because they're on the other side of the known. I think the more attempts to make Tuluk playable for everyone the greater the split in the player-base will be and the more exaggerated the underlying problems with the city being playable will be.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 04, 2015, 05:17:04 PM
My question is if people don't like the different flavor that Tuluk is on the surface, and don't want to delve into the intricacies of what gives the place variety underneath the surface, what purpose does having another massive city even serve? It seems like most complaints about the city tend to come from it not being like Allanak.

It just fells like a lot of overlap for little payoff and a segregated player-base that 90% of the players never feel any interaction with because they're on the other side of the known. I think the more attempts to make Tuluk playable for everyone the greater the split in the player-base will be and the more exaggerated the underlying problems with the city being playable will be.

Speaking for myself, based on the unscientific poll in this thread, replies within the thread itself, and regularly checking player counts in both cities as part of my curiosity as a Tuluk staffer, the vast majority of people simply don't fit the criteria here, so the overall point of the question in your first sentence is moot. The answer to your question would certainly be "there is no point in having Tuluk" if a majority of players didn't want to play there. The reality is that most people do enjoy playing in Tuluk, or would enjoy it (at all or even more) if adjustments were made.

We would like Tuluk to be playable as much as Allanak is playable. That doesn't mean "playable for everyone" per se, because people will always have differing tastes. 16 (14%) respondents to this poll said they would never, ever play in Tuluk, no matter what happened to it. That's fine. There are also players who have never played in Allanak and/or don't want to play there, believe it or not. We still want the option to be there for people who like both, though - which is the majority of players - and ultimately, we want to entertain as many people as possible. To that end, we're definitely interested in making adjustments and looking at player ideas, but there isn't a slippery slope to worry about here.

Quote from: Nergal on February 04, 2015, 05:13:07 PM
The bar for getting into plots in Tuluk is arguably pretty low - you have sponsored leaders who are taking on employees, involving them in plots, as well as partisans, involving them in even more. It's way too simplistic to imply that what's below the surface is inaccessible to the majority when Tuluk is set up the opposite way, gameplay-wise. Allanak is more or less the same way - the ways to get into the gritty, inner-city political plots of Allanak are more or less the same as in Tuluk. There has been, from time to time, a lack of player participation in the systems that keep Tuluk's plots oiled and running, but this, like everything else in the game, is cyclical. The more who are involved in patronage, in shadow artists, and in bards, the more in-city plots there are in Tuluk and the more that players get exposed to them.

As far as subtlety goes, I would say in Tuluk, the "us vs. them" mentality is represented in a subtle way whereas in Allanak it's more blatant. Beyond that it doesn't seem to affect plots in either city in ways that are described in some of the last few posts. Being "us" helps you get into plots in Tuluk, whereas being "us" in Allanak helps you get into plots in Allanak. It helps you not disappear in Tuluk whereas it helps you to not get thrown in the Arena in Allanak. It may not be a setting that appeals to everyone. But the goal of the staff members of the Northlands team right now is absolutely to make sure that a majority of Tuluk's plots are accessible to Tuluki citizens that make a basic effort to be a part of them. Not that this hasn't been more or less the case for the past several years, but it's definitely something we'd like to encourage through positive enforcement.

I think one thing to consider is that the major complaint for Tuluk for most people who don't enjoy playing there or have a difficult time playing there is, "This place doesn't really provide many roleplay opportunities for truly gritty characters/real commoners.".

Nobody is really arguing that you can, if you do it right, work your way up through the right social groups to get into the "real Tuluk".

But, in order to work your way up through those social groups you have to adapt your PC to/create a PC who would fit in with those social groups.

Those social groups are notably not conducive to playing gritty commoners. So, if you want to really experience "real Tuluk", you better play someone who is going to fit in with those social groups that will allow you to do that.

Well, as Xalle said, that's one of the things we're working on improving. I don't feel that there aren't presently clans in Tuluk that allow "gritty" characters to exist, or even opportunities for independent groups of "gritty" characters to rise up. It's really just a matter of cultivating an environment for it to help that along more than it happens now.

Quote from: Nergal on February 04, 2015, 05:35:56 PM
Well, as Xalle said, that's one of the things we're working on improving. I don't feel that there aren't presently clans in Tuluk that allow "gritty" characters to exist, or even opportunities for independent groups of "gritty" characters to rise up. It's really just a matter of cultivating an environment for it to help that along more than it happens now.

Yup, I've seen efforts on this front and I'm looking forward to where it is going.

(I'm just being part of the conversation. I know you guys are pushing hard on this front.)

M8 we aren't closing Tuluk down just so people are forced to play where they don't want to. I mean first of all that'd mean you'd have to play with a bunch of Tuluki players, right?

But also, y'know, some people don't find Allanak particularly interesting. This is coming from someone who only ever had one Tuluki character before joining staff. It's just dirt, testosterone and bad attitudes. Which is great. I really enjoyed my 3 years playing in Allanak. I mean I never once interacted with a noble (offpeak lyfe) and only had one character in a clan (AoD), but it was just a big canvas for players to project their apocalyptic fantasies onto. Which is probably why lots of people like it.

Where am I even going with this.

I like that Tuluk is different from Allanak.

I had a 'gritty' concept for a noble this past role call. Maybe I'll go for it next time there's a call.

Gritty doesn't have to mean sand and dirt and poverty. There's plenty of different grit in Tuluk.

Y'all are nuts. These sorts of posts are really divisive to the playerbase. :P

Quote from: Rathustra on February 04, 2015, 05:49:21 PM
Where am I even going with this.

It kind of seemed like you were pointed in the direction of Tuluk. Go home, northie scum!

Quote from: Nergal on February 04, 2015, 05:29:02 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 04, 2015, 05:17:04 PM
My question is if people don't like the different flavor that Tuluk is on the surface, and don't want to delve into the intricacies of what gives the place variety underneath the surface, what purpose does having another massive city even serve? It seems like most complaints about the city tend to come from it not being like Allanak.

It just fells like a lot of overlap for little payoff and a segregated player-base that 90% of the players never feel any interaction with because they're on the other side of the known. I think the more attempts to make Tuluk playable for everyone the greater the split in the player-base will be and the more exaggerated the underlying problems with the city being playable will be.

Speaking for myself, based on the unscientific poll in this thread, replies within the thread itself, and regularly checking player counts in both cities as part of my curiosity as a Tuluk staffer, the vast majority of people simply don't fit the criteria here, so the overall point of the question in your first sentence is moot. The answer to your question would certainly be "there is no point in having Tuluk" if a majority of players didn't want to play there. The reality is that most people do enjoy playing in Tuluk, or would enjoy it (at all or even more) if adjustments were made.

We would like Tuluk to be playable as much as Allanak is playable. That doesn't mean "playable for everyone" per se, because people will always have differing tastes. 16 (14%) respondents to this poll said they would never, ever play in Tuluk, no matter what happened to it. That's fine. There are also players who have never played in Allanak and/or don't want to play there, believe it or not. We still want the option to be there for people who like both, though - which is the majority of players - and ultimately, we want to entertain as many people as possible. To that end, we're definitely interested in making adjustments and looking at player ideas, but there isn't a slippery slope to worry about here.

The thing is with the changes Tuluk has seen recently it seems we are moving in the direction of "playable for everyone". Levvies, city shrinkage, Byn presence. This whole thread is based on staff rolecall to get more commoners in Tuluk.

People would love it if there were 3 new Desert Elf tribes to pick from. That doesn't mean the game should have three more tribes. It just means people like variety, like options. Just like you had a bunch of people complaining about losing the 10 different flavors of tuluki Taverns, I'm sure you'd also get a bunch of people complaining that there's no more Tuluk.


Whether a huge move like that alienates more players than it pleases isn't really an issue because the increase in players around each-other would easily negate those who're so bugged by its removal that they leave. I don't think many people play this game solely because of Tuluk anyways. What you can play in one city can easily be done the same in another, it's not like Tuluk has a monopoly on subtlety, silks, and tea.

Quote from: Rathustra on February 04, 2015, 05:49:21 PM
M8 we aren't closing Tuluk down just so people are forced to play where they don't want to....

...Where am I even going with this.

Not the same direction as me. I don't want to force people to play where they don't want to play. I want to force people to play with each-other... giggity.

We only had a specific call for a Warrens family, not commoners in general. We also had a reminder to players about how Tuluk has changed lately, and a suggestion that any who are interested in said changes try Tuluk ought to see them for themselves. Those changes include the things you mentioned and a lot more. We were not forcing anyone to play where they don't want to - rather reminding people that other options exist.

That was months ago, when Tuluk usually had about 10 less PCs in it than Allanak on peak at any given time. Nowadays it's about even, and Allanak has more or less maintained the size of its player base, so it suggests players are moving around and new players are coming in to try out both cities. So the last thing we want to do is make a drastic change knowing people will leave due to it, because when considering the actual facts - both player count and the amount of plotting going on in both areas - there isn't a sense that such drastic consolidation is necessary or warranted.

I personally gravitate more towards Tuluk than Allanak, though i've had several PCs in the Labyrinth and one in Allanak proper that was mildly successful.

If Tuluk went away, I would probably stop playing Armageddon. Yep, i'm gonna tie myself around that tree. I hug it that much.

Tuluk and its trees

Maybe I play off-peak too much, but pretty much every clan seems like a ghost-town in the major cities save for 1 or 2 which is in upswing. Then people keep joining that popular clan until a bunch of people get wiped out, and it shifts to some other clan.

I'd love it if we had double the players we have, to limit the ebb and flow from clan to clan and fill out the ones that seem lacking, and seeing as that is likely never going to happen, the next best option has always seemed to be to consolidate heavily.

When you're looking at it top-down I'm sure it's easy to see a bunch of players in a couple clans during peak hours and say "yeah the city is bumping right now!" When in reality 50% of your playerbase is waiting around for their 1-2 clannies to come online so they can do more than solo roleplay, while the other 50% is all interacting with eachother, having a great time.

Maybe it's just me, but going through those month long stretches where only you and one other person is past the recruit phase in your clan can be depressing.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 04, 2015, 07:15:08 PM
but pretty much every clan ...that popular clan ... some other clan.

...to limit the ebb and flow from clan to clan...

...bunch of players in a couple clans...

... in your clan can be depressing.

Fuck, maybe my problem is just with clans? Cut the clans in half!

Before the changes I used to play only in tuluk, and I barely knew the way from  allanak to luirs even after years of playing. Since the changes though I've mostly been playing  in Allanak.  Still Tuluk will always hold a special place in my heart.

Once upon a time the game was vastly different. In a time when overpowered cheating assholes were absolutely everywhere, Tuluk was the last bastion where you could play a mundane and enjoy mundane plots. It was truly the last gritty place to play because you could actually play a grebber, or hunter and not have magickal beings crammed down your throat at every single turn.  Those were dark times, and luckily they are no more. As mundanes have grown to taken over the world, Tuluk has lost its place.  Still let us forget the one place that kept us mundane players a place to play through all the high fantasy bullshit.  I might be happy the Lirathan order is gone now, but once upon a time i was truly thankful they exist and kept my mundane being able to live his mundane life.


The changes were responsible for me trying out allanak and ultimately loving the fresh new experience there. However looking at the changes there is really nothing that has changed that makes me say, I wouldn't play in tuluk because of this particular change, I don't like all the changes but tuluk is still tuluk.

For example, after some thought i feel like Tuluk doesn't really need a rinth, instead what the -game- needs is something to prevent people from being to simply type look <mugger/pickpocket/assassin> and be able to fuck them over completely by telling everyone at the bar their mdesc. The only thing i still really don't like is the shadow artist system. Its not a bad but I would personally like it more with these tweaks:

1. Shadow artist system should only be available to nobles.
2. When negotiating the contract, nobles can choose their own artist for a task. Otherwise, the Templar will choose from his own pool of loyal shadow artist at extra costs to the noble.  
3. It is common/routine for partisans with favor with a noble to ask them to use the shadow artist system on their behalf against an enemy.
4. All other activities outside sanctioned contracts between nobles, Templar and shadow artists are considered crime. There is a lot crime in tuluk.  :)

My reasoning for these changes is the following, the fact that sanctioned crime is limited to nobility and their partisans means that everyone else will need to get their hands dirty to get things done, and it should be common enough occurrence , thus increasing real crime in the city. Right now there is no reason why people need to risk committing any real crime, when they can go to a templar and pay for a shadow artist without any risk. This turns things cheesy. My reasoning for letting nobles pick their own assassin is basically so it will be valuable to train your own assassin again. The old system allowed this, while the new system doesn't, instead puts them all into one large pool for everyone to use without loyalty or ability to get truly involved in the plots of a house. That never sat right with me. However templars could still keep a nice pool of their own shadow arists willing to work, no questions asked. They would probably get more work but be less involved in the intricate details of the plots.  

Even with the shadow system though, its just a personal opinion. Again I don't think Tuluk really needs a rinth, its just that the 'look' command is a bit too powerful and I feel that the game would benefit from it having some sort of delay, especially during combat. Or some other idea that would make petty crime against others like mugging a death sentence for the mugger or the victim unless you from the rinth.

You're not allowed to know all the cool lore in Armageddon because Find Out IC. Except don't, because it's not shared.

Numbers are one of the problems. Encourage friends, put the word out about ARM, get more people to play. Keep voting. It will be a roller coaster ride up and down, too many nobles, then not enough, too many underlings, and then too few. Trying to get that balance is difficult. Especially when you lose a strong PC leader. I love their being lots of nobles, but I'm also craving for more gritty characters!

The Byn coming north was great. I've wanted it for so long, and I hope those players are enjoying the role, and there is enough 'action' to let them play mercs, and not just play sparring dummies. I'd like to see some more GMH Mid-High level folks. Hardest thing about that is cutting in on players who build for the role, but simply because there is a PC above them shouldn't stop them from getting promoted. If there's three merchants, they can actually plot against each other, trying to get the approval of the nobles to make big bank. It could lead to a few more desirable artists. I can't remember who said it where, but last I knew, you could train your own shadow artist, and request them to do your contracts if they were your partisan, or employee.

What I am dying to see is the staff's plans for what will happen with the criminal world, these scum warreners. The Akai is closed. We have no "Guild" (that I am aware of). I'd like to see the access to the warrens opened up, and let in tribals and non inked citizens, and see if that helps add a little more grit?  It was once hard to get an apartment in the warrens... Though there needs to be some support of stuff to do, much like the ideas that have been applied for the Northern Byn. Things to do. Benefits to patrolling your turf in the warrens, and the like. Special hangouts, access to a certain NPC fences that has limited desirable items, etc.

We don't need a direct copy of the Rinth, Tuluk should have it's own flavour. I can't wait to see what is on the horizon.. I have a few ideas!

Most undesirable criminal foreign PCs probably have the skills to get into areas like the Warrens regardless of the tattoo checker.

I prefer Nak. That said, the complaints people have about the subtleties  of Tuluk are often true, but not always true. And when it works, when you have people that totally get it and not only get it, but can make it accessible, it's a really beautiful thing.

Quote from: Zoan on February 05, 2015, 02:20:47 PM
You're not allowed to know all the cool lore in Armageddon because Find Out IC. Except don't, because it's not shared.

What a shame there's not a whole clan dedicated to all the cool lore in Armageddon...

Which clan?

The Bards. It's the main focus of the Irofel Circle, but any bard can work on the Arc of Lore. Other Arcs can intermingle with it too.

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Bards%20of%20Poets'%20Circle (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Bards%20of%20Poets'%20Circle)

It's going to be biased in Tuluk's favour, though of course.

Well, there WAS Negean, but...  :P

I assume he's referring to Irofel Circle. I'm not sure how bards would access the "stored lore" of Irofel without sending in a staff request (due to lack of r/w). Hopefully there's some sort of process set up so that your bard can gradually access the hard-won lore of Irofel as they progress in the clan.

At the moment it's done via staff requests and/or animations. I'm hoping to streamline the process though.

That's awesome.

Quote from: Delirium on February 09, 2015, 10:41:09 AM
That's awesome.

What if those Irofel bards of days past were just making shit up?

The beauty of it is characters CAN make up history IC and most people can't contradict them.

wooooooo revisionism

If there is a chuck norris joke somewhere on the internet, I will have turned it into a Muk Utep anecdote at some point