Play in Tuluk

[Is Friday]

Can a middle-rank GMH non-inked PC use the shadow artist system? Or are they still basically just there to be targets as their 'participation' in the system.

Correct, you cannot use the system. One of the best ways to create a vortex of butthurt is to use your citizenship and social rank to oppress indies.

[Desertman]

It's been well over a year, but it wasn't my character, so I will only say that they had a network of spies/criminal lackeys, acted quite viciously (killed more people than I can count really), were kind of twinky, but definitely acted within and without the bounds of the system. This was pre all the recent changes, but I definitely think it's almost more possible now than before.

Keep in mind that Templars in Tuluk aren't shining beacons of hope and justice (at least, not anymore). If there's something nasty going on, they probably just want a piece of it. If you're an idiot and don't make the right bribes, then Templars don't look the other way. It's pretty straight-forward, really. They may be 'potent' but not 'omnipotent'.

I think you'd be surprised how easy unlicensed crime is in Tuluk, if you actually gave it a good college try.

Oh I'm sure it's possible if you pay off the right people. Keeping in mind, paying off the right people is fundamentally the same system as paying for getting a license. It is being licensed, without calling it a license. I've paid off northern Templars before after committing a crime and walked away. I know how to work the system to make the crime "legal". The difference is if you get caught, refuse to pay the bribe/license fee, and then go on to being notorious in Tuluk....does the city have sufficient avenues in place to let you continue playing that role/is it too heavy handed in stamping out/squashing that possibility...the role of an actual criminal and not a de-facto licensed criminal? I don't think it does, which is why you really don't hear about them.

[palomar]

Wisp, is a good start, and great example of a Templarate lackey that outgrew just being a simple "Shadow Artist".

If it has been over a year and wouldn't conflict with current plotlines etc...I would be interested to hear about them just out of curiosity. (The name is unfamiliar to me.)

It's been well over a year, but it wasn't my character, so I will only say that they had a network of spies/criminal lackeys, acted quite viciously (killed more people than I can count really), were kind of twinky, but definitely acted within and without the bounds of the system. This was pre all the recent changes, but I definitely think it's almost more possible now than before.

Keep in mind that Templars in Tuluk aren't shining beacons of hope and justice (at least, not anymore). If there's something nasty going on, they probably just want a piece of it. If you're an idiot and don't make the right bribes, then Templars don't look the other way. It's pretty straight-forward, really. They may be 'potent' but not 'omnipotent'.

I think you'd be surprised how easy unlicensed crime is in Tuluk, if you actually gave it a good college try.

The PC in question was not a criminal but a templarate lackey. In practice also more of a templarate operative than a shadow artist.

I'm guessing that most of the notorious mundane criminals from Allanak were somehow associated with the Labyrinth. With the absence of that kind of environment in Tuluk, there hasn't been that kind of notable criminal (ie, individuals openly at odds with the templarate while operating in the city) since UnderTuluk was destroyed in 2009, afaik.

Edited to add: One also has to consider that just about everyone will stand to lose a lot of status if being caught working with/employing unlicensed thieves/killers etc. It mostly isn't worth it for interested parties to take that route.

[Desertman]

^ This.

[Nergal]

Also, think about what the functional difference is between a templar in Tuluk who wants to catch someone who committed an unlicensed assassination in Tuluk vs. a templar in Allanak that wants to catch an assassin that didn't pay the templar first to make sure the law looked the other way. I would argue there isn't any.

There is nothing actually stopping anyone from pursuing unlicensed crime in Tuluk that is different from stopping people from pursuing un-templar-approved crime in Allanak. Tuluk has a formalized system of corruption whereas it's off the books in Allanak. To use Elder Scrolls references because I can't think of anything else to say about this, Tuluk is like the Morag Tong of Morrowind while Allanak has the Dark Brotherhood. Both will kill for powerful people, but only one has written and accepted proof that that's their job and there is no need to interfere too much.

Over the past several years there seemed to be a common perception that there is some sort of thing in Tuluk that stopped crime, and I can't really argue that they were correct or not, but we're in different times now and now is what matters. The more players in general base their perception of the game on what is happening in the game right now, rather than what happened years ago, the easier it is to actually appreciate the game itself.

[Desertman]

Also, think about what the functional difference is between a templar in Tuluk who wants to catch someone who committed an unlicensed assassination in Tuluk vs. a templar in Allanak that wants to catch an assassin that didn't pay the templar first to make sure the law looked the other way. I would argue there isn't any.

There is nothing actually stopping anyone from pursuing unlicensed crime in Tuluk that is different from stopping people from pursuing un-templar-approved crime in Allanak. Tuluk has a formalized system of corruption whereas it's off the books in Allanak. To use Elder Scrolls references because I can't think of anything else to say about this, Tuluk is like the Morag Tong of Morrowind while Allanak has the Dark Brotherhood. Both will kill for powerful people, but only one has written and accepted proof that that's their job and there is no need to interfere too much.

Over the past several years there seemed to be a common perception that there is some sort of thing in Tuluk that stopped crime, and I can't really argue that they were correct or not, but we're in different times now and now is what matters. The more players in general base their perception of the game on what is happening in the game right now, rather than what happened years ago, the easier it is to actually appreciate the game itself.

I think the functional difference isn't in "How does the templarate respond if you pay them first.", I agree that is much the same at the end of the day. I really like the Elder Scrolls reference and I agree completely.

The fundamental difference lies in "What are your options if you want to play a criminal that doesn't pay them at all/refuses to kneel to the system?". (A real criminal).

The difference is a rinth-like area where crime/criminals can thrive and criminals can prosper/retreat to in relative safety until their next heist/crime.

As for the perception that there is some sort of thing in Tuluk that stopped crime outside of the lack of a lawless area, I hope that has changed for the better. The thing being discussed is the documented mind powers of the templarate of Tuluk that in a lot of ways made it almost impossible to work outside of the law for reasons most of us know. If that particular facet of the northern templarate has changed (though the documentation still notes it) then I think we have gone a long way in the right direction to making truly illegal crime/criminals more viable in Tuluk.

[Nyr]

Can a middle-rank GMH non-inked PC use the shadow artist system?

Sure.  However, as written now, you have to go through a patron, which might mean greasing some palms.  If you are a mid-ranked GMH non-inked PC, you are probably used to doing that.  Additionally, if you are such a member of a GMH, you might have other options.  Talk to your staff about possibilities.

[KankWhisperer]

Can a middle-rank GMH non-inked PC use the shadow artist system?

Sure.  However, as written now, you have to go through a patron, which might mean greasing some palms.  If you are a mid-ranked GMH non-inked PC, you are probably used to doing that.  Additionally, if you are such a member of a GMH, you might have other options.  Talk to your staff about possibilities.

This is very non inclusive and really doesn't make any sense. You can't participate, the patron can. You are adding another layer of people who now know your plans. Middle rank lifesworn GMH has to get a patron to have some grebber offed? That system sucks. Sends the message just don't come here.

[Nyr]

Each to their own; what might be a solution for one player (or one situation, even) may be untenable for another player.

However, if you do happen to be in such a position and want to have some grebber offed, might I recommend communicating that to your clan staff, as suggested previously?  Everyone's situation is different and we can't give a blanket answer that will suit every scenario. 

[ZuluFoxtrot]

As for the perception that there is some sort of thing in Tuluk that stopped crime outside of the lack of a lawless area, I hope that has changed for the better. The thing being discussed is the documented mind powers of the templarate of Tuluk that in a lot of ways made it almost impossible to work outside of the law for reasons most of us know. If that particular facet of the northern templarate has changed (though the documentation still notes it) then I think we have gone a long way in the right direction to making truly illegal crime/criminals more viable in Tuluk.

Trust me when I say this - The documentation for the powers that be is to help you along. You're not going to come up against those superpowers unless you are seriously pissing off all the wrong people. In fact, most of the superpowers that made it easy for them back in the day have been massively toned down. So long as you aren't twink-stealing every piece of furniture in every apartment building in the period of an hour, you're most likely not going to draw the attention of the evil overlords. (Or more likely, someone's going to report you to them and they're going to say "Why the fuck do I care?")

[KankWhisperer]

Each to their own; what might be a solution for one player (or one situation, even) may be untenable for another player.

However, if you do happen to be in such a position and want to have some grebber offed, might I recommend communicating that to your clan staff, as suggested previously?  Everyone's situation is different and we can't give a blanket answer that will suit every scenario. 

I am sure it is possible to do, I just don't get why it's been made so -hard- to do. The last thing this game needs is more bureaucracy.

It should be made simple as this:

If I am on your social level or higher than I can go to the templar and -participate- in Tuluk.
If I try and go higher, then that's when I should have to get a patron or talk to the clan staff.

ALso, can a inked grebber NOT put a hit on a middle ranked GMH employee?
Otherwise I think you need to clarify that any inked person is of higher social status than any non-inked person.
Or just clarify what the social rankings in Tuluk mean related to the Shadow Artist system, if anything.
I think I would participate in Tuluk more if I could participate and not just be simply a target.

[Patuk]

Allanak's environment supports crime much more than Tuluk does, and I don't think Tuluki PC crime levels are going to look like Allanak's at any time until that is changed.

Allanak has a crimcode-free environment for people to train their unsavory skills at their leisure, it has a coded clan that helps coordination a lot, it has a banned substance that criminals can make a lot of money with, and even a source of free water for any sneakily aligned person to get at whenever they feel like it.

The only thing Tuluk has to compare is a sort of system where the templarate can act as a proxy for wealthy, influential people who want to get shit done in the dark.

(Please note that these very much are not people we'd call criminals)

Tuluk is a very good place if what you want to do is play some kind if hypercompetent ninja person for hire, or a lackey to someone being a robber baron.

If you just want to get by as a petty mugger, pickpocket, smuggler, want to become fucking don elf corleone, or not deal with templars at all because they scare the crap out of you, I'm not sure why you'd choose Tuluk over Allanak at all.

Again, this is fine if enough people like it. But judging from this very poll at least, 1 in 5 or so people don't.

[BadSkeelz]

foreigner use of the shadow artist system

God forbid being a citizen would confer some advantages over non-citizens in your own city-state.

[Patuk]

I forgot to add to the listing in my post that in Allanak, people not from around there can hang out wherever they want, though.I don't truly think that's such a big deal.

[KankWhisperer]

foreigner use of the shadow artist system

God forbid being a citizen would confer some advantages over non-citizens in your own city-state.

Well I thought it was a caste system and not simply inks > all non inks. Do GMH have status or not. Just clarify it. Say they don't and we can go from there.

[BadSkeelz]

It would depend on whether that GMH is inked or not. The Caste system simply isn't Slaves<Indie commoners<GMH<Nobles<Templars. What city that GMH is nominally a citizen of has some import.

[Down Under]

I forgot to add to the listing in my post that in Allanak, people not from around there can hang out wherever they want, though.I don't truly think that's such a big deal.

Not exactly true.

Every time i've played a Northerner in Allanak (usually in the Byn), they get real scared to talk in public for a good reason.

[Desertman]

I forgot to add to the listing in my post that in Allanak, people not from around there can hang out wherever they want, though.I don't truly think that's such a big deal.

Not exactly true.

Every time i've played a Northerner in Allanak (usually in the Byn), they get real scared to talk in public for a good reason.

That is a relatively new thing since the battle of Tyn Dashra, but a thing/change I personally like. In Allanak you are hated because as a Northerner you are basically a war criminal...it has nothing to do with the level of grit/nasty/evil you actually are or what side of "the law" you find yourself on. You are a criminal by association.

*You can be the nicest person in the Known and still be shunned/scorned/killed just for being inked in Allanak.

*Unless you have an organization like a House to protect you.

[Patuk]

I forgot to add to the listing in my post that in Allanak, people not from around there can hang out wherever they want, though.I don't truly think that's such a big deal.

Not exactly true.

Every time i've played a Northerner in Allanak (usually in the Byn), they get real scared to talk in public for a good reason.

This isn't a coded thing, though. It's entirely PC-created. And I've had much the same thing happen in Tuluk repeatedly. I'd say both city-states do this just fine.

I also agree about it being a good thing.

[KankWhisperer]

It would depend on whether that GMH is inked or not. The Caste system simply isn't Slaves<Indie commoners<GMH<Nobles<Templars. What city that GMH is nominally a citizen of has some import.

No shit.

That doesn't mean midlevel GMH should be at the bottom because of non inks. They should be below an equivalent ranked citizen.

And one particular GMH's family never appears to be inked period.

[wizturbo]

And one particular GMH's family never appears to be inked period.

And what does that imply about that particular GMH's status in the city?

[yousuff]

-redacted- might have been a little too IC there, sorry.

[Nergal]

Allanak's environment supports crime much more than Tuluk does, and I don't think Tuluki PC crime levels are going to look like Allanak's at any time until that is changed.

Allanak has a crimcode-free environment for people to train their unsavory skills at their leisure, it has a coded clan that helps coordination a lot, it has a banned substance that criminals can make a lot of money with, and even a source of free water for any sneakily aligned person to get at whenever they feel like it.

The only thing Tuluk has to compare is a sort of system where the templarate can act as a proxy for wealthy, influential people who want to get shit done in the dark.

(Please note that these very much are not people we'd call criminals)

Tuluk is a very good place if what you want to do is play some kind if hypercompetent ninja person for hire, or a lackey to someone being a robber baron.

If you just want to get by as a petty mugger, pickpocket, smuggler, want to become fucking don elf corleone, or not deal with templars at all because they scare the crap out of you, I'm not sure why you'd choose Tuluk over Allanak at all.

Again, this is fine if enough people like it. But judging from this very poll at least, 1 in 5 or so people don't.

Even if I agreed with you on Tuluk lacking elements that Allanak has that supports criminal RP, we can't graft features onto Tuluk to make it analogical to Allanak or else it loses its uniqueness, and ultimately what makes Tuluk compelling to those who already like the city.

I don't agree with you not because I feel Tuluk has these elements - because for the most part, it doesn't - but that you're putting too much stock into what Allanak has. The 'rinth isn't a training zone for criminals, it's a dangerous place where people who "train" there are often killed by the clan that's in there or by the NPCs. Taking the water is theft and can have severe consequences if caught, whether by PCs or NPCs.

That being said, Tuluk, as an environment, lets petty criminals exist but perhaps in a lower-risk, lower-reward manner. You can scrape by as a criminal in Tuluk just as much as in Allanak provided you take a different approach. Both in theory and in practice, it's not nearly as binary as your post or even the poll would suggest, which at the moment amounts to 50% of respondents liking Tuluk as it is - which, considering it's half of the two major playing locations, is really not that bad. As a Tuluk staffer I would love for it to be 100% or even satisfy the 1 in 5 you mentioned, but I realize that's not realistic either. People are going to have their own tastes and while staff enjoys feedback from players, making Tuluk into 2.Allanak isn't going to help in the long run. Examining what Tuluk is doing right and facilitating that better probably will.

[Patuk]

I made a list detailing the way things are, not how they should be or have to be changed.

If you think things are fine or shouldn't be changed, that's okay. But if people ever wonder why everyone in Tuluk is a hunter or a wealthy aide or some bard, this is why.

[bcw81]

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Caste%20Structure

You people talking about the Caste System should read this, it details it fairly well.