Play in Tuluk

[Incognito]

Pursuant to Staff's post - that they'd like to see more players playing in Tuluk, I thought it prudent to take a poll to see what the players feel about this.

Please feel free to elaborate - so it gives everyone (including Staff) an idea of why folks aren't opting for this location.

[BadSkeelz]

I've been meaning to for awhile, but have just be caught up in other characters.

[Patuk]

I do think toning the whole antimagick thing down is a good thing to so. Ever since the nerfing of Whirans because of the way they were dicking around in Tuluk, I haven't seen them do especially much.

I also think adding Undertuluk or something similar is a good idea. The removal of liratheans is a good step in that direction, but the templarate remains far too pervasive.

My chief dislike of Tuluk is the whole culture of subtlety nonsense, though. It is in stark contrast with good game design and should not be upheld anymore imo. It even is easy to write into the documentation; 'with the allanaki oppression having been so long ago, the necessity of subtlety and its memory have vanished' or something to that effect.

I play and have played in Tuluk regardless.

[Marauder Moe]

I'll play in Tuluk again when I'm ready to.

[Nyr]

My chief dislike of Tuluk is the whole culture of subtlety nonsense, though. It is in stark contrast with good game design and should not be upheld anymore imo. It even is easy to write into the documentation; 'with the allanaki oppression having been so long ago, the necessity of subtlety and its memory have vanished' or something to that effect.

This is something that was addressed with the documentation revamp and has been discussed since then.  

Made "Tuluki subtlety" no longer the "most important thing to remember."  Instead, it is "an important thing to keep in mind" and is explained as something that higher-ranked folks tend to expect, which explains why lower ranked folks may (or may not) pursue such ends in-game.

I encourage players to ask about the things about which they have misconceptions so that they can be corrected or addressed.

[Patuk]

It still says subtlety is valued and expected from lower-class people. The only thing I'd like to know is why it was left in entirely.

[Incognito]

Only fair that I put in my own views, since I'm polling for others' views.

I find Tuluk, to be stifling.

1) Magick and Psionics are restricted.
2) There's no "lawless" zone anymore, where PCs who wish to engage in activities which are not allowed or frowned upon in the "city-proper" to go to.

I'm not talking just about mages or sorcs of psis - even burglars, pps and assassins who want to "operate freely" have no options.

My personal suggestions would be:
a) Make the city secure externally (periphery-wise and aerially).
b) Reintroduce Undertuluk (or some alternate zone) where "anything goes".
c) Make it so "questionable activities" within private quarters in Tuluk, are not automagickally/psionically detected.
d) Introduce more "lawless" alleys in the city proper.

[Reiloth]

I cut my teeth in Tuluk and I think thats where I had my first 'Real' character, Aelithor, who worked as a merchant for a long-armed dwarf in his shop in Freil's Rest (Durg?). I think ever since then, I've felt the most comfortable playing in Tuluk. I'll definitely dabble in Allanak, or Red Storm, or Luirs, but my longest lived (and most fun) PCs have been in Tuluk I think.

I was hesitant with the new documentation revamps, but having played there since they've been implemented, I can say this is pretty much the best cohesive vision of Tuluk i've seen so far. The High play their game of Houses, while the lower class people seem more plainly rough and gritty than I remember. It feels much more real than before, where every Amos and Malik had to subtle-subtle-subtle and demurely sit at the bar and say nothing.

The Qynar/Striasiri were cool concepts, but really difficult to play out. The virtual manpower to govern sectors of Tuluk just wasn't in place -- I played a Noble that held the Grasslands, and he wanted to institute a tax on hunters who brought in more than their fair share of game -- While this may have been possible if there were fifty to a hundred House soldiers at his disposal, there wasn't, so that plan wasn't feasible. And so on. Not to knock the people who came up with the idea -- I think it was a great idea -- But it just didn't play out as expected I think. Governing a large swath of land is difficult to do when you only have 2-3 employees.

This incarnation of Tuluk seems self-sufficient, in the sense that Nobles and Templars can feasibly mold and shape their sector of Tuluk without Staff intervention or requiring them every step of the way. Self-sufficient is good -- Like the Blue Robes of Allanak, or Sergeants of T'zai Byn, they run a machine that is well-oiled. And while that machine may have issues, for the most part it runs itself. Blue Robes do as they wish, within reason, and interact with Staff to drive plots forward, not to make the machine work. T'zai Byn Sergeants, similarly, run the ship and take contracts and execute them, rarely needing to make the machine work with Staff. It just runs, and i'm glad to see Tuluk in a place where it can 'just run' without needing Staff to steer the ship or patch the holes.

I think this comes about from laying down solid foundations in the documentation, and then letting PCs within that construct interact with each other. So, I suppose I see this version of Tuluk as having the strongest foundation i've seen, so far.

[Nyr]

It still says subtlety is valued and expected from lower-class people. The only thing I'd like to know is why it was left in entirely.

I believe this may be a case of interpreting the docs in a different way, so I would first recommend a read of the specific section:

Depending on caste, social status can be influenced in different ways. One important thing to keep in mind is subtlety. Higher-ranked individuals tend to look down on overt, obvious actions--which means that the lower members of society will tend to strive towards more subtle speech and action, in return. Associating with the 'wrong crowd' can also cause a negative impact. Alternatively, working willingly with one of His Chosen or His Faithful as a partisan can cause a positive impact, assuming they are in good standing themselves. These are only a few ways that social standing can be affected, but these examples should be helpful.

I've bolded the relevant part.  Those two lines there are written specifically as an improvement on the previous documentation, which held no room for nuance.  The paragraph used to say:

Depending on caste, social status can be influenced in different ways. The most important thing to keep in mind is subtlety. Overt, obvious actions are looked down upon as a general rule. Associating with the 'wrong crowd' (which, in Tuluk, includes magickers and southerners) can also cause a negative impact. Alternatively, working willingly with one of His Chosen or His Faithful as a partisan can cause a positive impact, assuming they are in good standing themselves. These are only a few ways that social standing can be affected, but these examples should be helpful.

So:

before:  subtlety = the most important thing ever.  Overt, obvious actions are looked down upon as a general rule.  Interpretation, for playerbase at the time = subtlety is basically everything about Tuluk, you don't say what you mean ever and if you act southern at all you just don't get Tuluk and aren't being Tuluki.

After:  subtlety = an important thing to keep in mind.  Higher-ranked people tend to (read:  this does not mean always) look down on overt, obvious things, and lower ranked people tend to (read:  this does not mean always) respond in that manner.  Interpretation, laid out by staff at the time = this gives you plenty of reason to not be "subtle" (interpretation = mine, laid out when it was announced).

So that's why it was "left in."  It does not say it is valued and expected from lower-class people, it merely explains what general tendencies might be and lets the player be the judge of what they should or shouldn't do in a particular situation or with a particular character.

[MeTekillot]

I'll play in Tuluk when I ride up with Allanak's army to occupy it.

[palomar]

I'll play in Tuluk again when I'm ready to.

Yes, same here. It has a certain appeal, but so do other areas of the game, all in their own ways.

[Patuk]

I know it is, and I read that. I'd still like to know why it was not removed altogether, and left up to the playerbase itself.

[X-D]

I need 2 votes, as I would vote for 2 and 5.
Well, the magick one I do not care about, in fact, it is about the only change to Tuluk that I fully agree with.

I do not know enough about the Templar changes to have much of an opinion, but it at least sounds good on the surface.

Now, as to things -I- think need fixing.

First and top on my list, the latest city revamp IMO is a horrid monstrosity that removes any feeling of Tuluk as the white city of Muk, and leaves it feeling as a jumbled mess with no feeling of "soul".

Next, the all too stifling feeling coming from the city revamp, lack of UT or rinth like area and removel of most tribal areas or at least ones with a tribal feel of the Tuluk beginnings, combine that with guards checking everybodies inks to restrict it even more, and that is something really hard to swallow in the believability department.

Oh, shadow artists...I don't know if it has been said but...somebody please change the name of that one.

Over all, Tuluk has a feeling of a stifling isolationist group to me now days...and to be honest, I'd rather play Soh Lana Kah.

Just my opinions of course and they do not really mean anything, but I do not see myself playing Tuluk again any time soon.

[Incognito]

I'll play in Tuluk again when I'm ready to.

Yes, same here. It has a certain appeal, but so do other areas of the game, all in their own ways.

Palomar - You're right - Tuluk certainly has it's own appeal - as do all other areas in the game.

However, the intricacy we're trying to address is - would Tuluk's appeal be greater, if certain changes were made/reintroduced? Or does it not matter to the players?

[Armaddict]

Scrap Tuluk.  Start over.

[Nyr]

Only fair that I put in my own views, since I'm polling for others' views.

I find Tuluk, to be stifling.

When was the last time you played a Tuluki in Tuluk?  For how long?

As for the reasoning here for why some people like/don't like it, that's something to consider--if there are areas that we can improve things that make sense, sure. 

However, ultimately:

Staff want to do stuff for players in Tuluk as well as foster conflict between the city-states.  In the process, things will probably get added and be changed over time in both city-states, at least in part because we want to make conflict in all its forms something easier for players to accomplish in a story-driven way.  We want to see more plots, RPTs, and the like involving Tuluk, and the ultimate thing needed for that is players IN Tuluk.  We're making a concerted effort with this open request because it's important to get more than one or two people deciding they should play sponsored roles/do some kind of trickle-up towards the activity critical mass.

The game and the playerbase in terms of regional activity are both largely cyclical; this gets repeated because it is historically true.  Generally, it's not a problem because it corrects itself.  We're hoping to give it a bit of a jumpstart so that the upcoming plot ideas staff teams have (for both city-states) can be brought to fruition.

[Marauder Moe]

If there were changes that (re)introduced roles, I think a lot of people would express interest for the novelty factor.

I'd like to give another shot at playing a Circle Bard some day, as I fell in love with that clan while I was there.

I suppose, though, I can't really say much about the (relatively) recent changes that happened in Tuluk because I stopped playing there (*ahem*) shortly before they started being implemented.

[Nyr]

I know it is, and I read that. I'd still like to know why it was not removed altogether, and left up to the playerbase itself.

I'm not following you, so I would like to be sure we are on the same page and that I answer your question here.  Are you asking to understand staff's reasoning for keeping it?

[Patuk]

I am, yes. It is one of the reasons I dislike Tuluk. There may be very good reasons to keep it in, but I think they have a net negative influence.

[Nyr]

I had a long thing written out but I've copied it elsewhere for posting just in case.

Can you tell me what it is that you dislike about subtlety in Tuluk?  What is it that you think of when you read that?  What is it that you think is allowed/promoted by these couple of lines of documentation?  Is there a specific thing that you are thinking of when you say, "it is one of the reasons I dislike Tuluk?"  If you can come up with an example, that would help (please be generic about it if possible--if you want you can pop in a request and I can read over what you are concerned about).

[bcw81]

If there were changes that (re)introduced roles, I think a lot of people would express interest for the novelty factor.

I'd like to give another shot at playing a Circle Bard some day, as I fell in love with that clan while I was there.

I suppose, though, I can't really say much about the (relatively) recent changes that happened in Tuluk because I stopped playing there (*ahem*) shortly before they started being implemented.

Poet Circle auditions are happening this weekend as per the Announcement - and I'm pretty sure you can apply to join them like any other human tribal role with a random role call request. I'm pretty sure you don't need to wait for Staff to post a role call on the forums. (Feel free to beat me down, Staff, as I might be wrong on that last part.)

[KankWhisperer]

I think Tuluk feels too much about limits and Allanak feels more about possibilities.  See ink checkers.

Tuluk feels like you have to excessively deal with beaurocracy and social ties to do anything.  In Allanak it feels like you just need to be good.

[th3kaiser]

I haven't actually seriously played Tuluk in so many years. I ought to give it a go at some point, probably. I just have all these notions of how the city was that make me stay away. As such, I'm not voting, I have zero experience on how the city is these days. I haven't even seen a Tuluki PC in forever.
Nyr, kill me off in some interesting fashion and I'll probably give it a go! I just hope there's a bar that's okay with my PCs having a piss in the corner after tavern-sitting too long.

[Taven]

I think people would play more in Tuluk if there were more people in Tuluk. A useful analysis, I know. 

But having played in both citystates, I really do think that's one of the bigger differences. When playing in Allanak, my PCs have usually had a large variety of people to interact with, on numerous social levels. While sometimes it could be slow, there were usually enough people in multiple areas that keeping plots rolling and having a lot more plot options was possible. In Tuluk, my experience is that it's easier to give up on because you have to wait longer for people to be around and in the meantime, you have to entertain yourself. I have had great times in Tuluk when there's been enough people, but in my experience, a lot of plots sputter and die because there is a lack of people. The obvious answer is to get more people.

Can we talk about Tuluk and Allanak in general a moment, too?

I believe Tuluk is set up in a way that makes it harder to successfully have murder, corruption, and betrayal. I love the idea of legalized crime and that it is central to the culture. I'm not convinced that the way it is set up makes things more enjoyable for people. Right now, you have to be a tool of the citystate. The templars are middlemen who are supposed to be uncorrupted in this role. People have already said why this feels forced and controlling when this was announced. Crime outside of the control of templars also seems like something that would be contrived. It's shocking and confusing not when people are found out, but rather when people get away with things. When Tuluk's greatest advantage is knowledge, it only makes sense that the templars would want to exert control. I would argue that because of the spies, Tuluk has even more reason to want to tightly control everything and never trust anyone. However, I don't personally know about the effect of changes (templars, shadow artists), and my comments are more as an outsider looking in.

I also like that Tuluk doesn't like magick. That's also a central part of the culture. However, I don't think it is doing the city-state any favors in terms of relative power. Allanak has templars with magick. Allanak has the gemmed. In addition to this, Allanak has mundane roles and more people to fill them. A magicker can quickly become incredibly powerful, whereas say an assassin has to put in a lot more time. When the opposing city-state has not only giant nuclear grandes they can throw at you, but also a plethera of normal soldiers, then the state with less people and only normal soldiers is screwed. It's like the Amish going up against a tank.

There are ways around that, but it would require giving Tuluk's mundanes a significant edge. Dasari could produce some poisons or plagues that were deadly, for example (more general and available then a specific one-term plot). Kassigarh thug training could give assassins an edge. Winrothol mounts could give rangers an edge. Tenneshi's...uh... Special building powers could provide a place for people to do something more. However, all of these options are also very House focused. Is that bad? I don't really think so, no. I know people like playing indies, but there's a lot of flex room with the option of partisan status.

Maybe the perks thing is already true, I have no idea. But if it has been considered or implemented, I bet if it was more widely known, it might attract more players to see what all the hype was about.

I think Tuluk feels too much about limits and Allanak feels more about possibilities.  See ink checkers.

Tuluk feels like you have to excessively deal with beaurocracy and social ties to do anything.  In Allanak it feels like you just need to be good.

As far as I know, what you're referring to is just to check if you're a citizen. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a citizen to get more benefits. I do think it is easier for an Allanaki to go more places and do more (outside of Tuluk), since they can easily pretend to be anything, with no marks to tell the world otherwise.

I think in Tuluk things are just more formalized then Allanak. You still need influence in Allanak to get a lot accomplished, it just usually is more subtle (isn't that ironic?) and less overtly defined.

[CodeMaster]

I would play in Tuluk again, but here is a short summary of my somewhat difficult experiences as a new character there (I'm using my best judgment to ascertain this isn't shedding any IC [information]).

So I roll a dirty, useless commoner of the lowest tier.  I jump in the game with my shiny new dirtbag, eager to check the city out.  Walk down the stairs from the starter room and into a bar, and step out onto the streets, slowly beginning to localize myself.  After all, he's supposed to have grown up here, tattoos and all, so I'd best know my way around.

Five minutes later, well displaced from my original location, some authority figure comes out of hide and tells me I didn't do the right thing when I passed person X and is basically acting like I just fucked Marsellus Wallace.  He's going in and out of hide, so I'm missing my tells at him.  Eventually I figure out the correct social protocol, and get dismissed and continue my wandering.

[Obligatory youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysXMUj7XJ5Q]

(By contrast, in Allanak, if you don't bow to a templar (as an example of committing a social faux pas), someone's probably going to say "bow or he'll cut you down, dude" and it's that easy.)

As I rack up the hours, I find people being really friendly with my character.  Maybe I reeked of newbie.  But let's just say he wasn't a guy you wouldn't want to talk to on the streets if you were walking the straight and narrow, so it didn't make intuitive sense to me why people would be consistently interested in socializing with me.  Nevertheles, given Tuluk's duplicitous nature, I had to assume these kinds of exchanges were within the bounds of normal RP.  (Honestly, I should have gone for a higher-tier kind of commoner and not something like a dirty breed, but I was looking for a challenge and clearly got one.)

Of course I hugely appreciated all these guys' efforts to bring me into their RP.  But Tuluk overall strikes me as roleplay ultra-hard-mode - as in, I felt like I needed an extra layer of documentation for what was going on between me and the other PCs.  It requires just that much more effort to get into playing confidently there, which makes me understand why some people have had trouble enjoying themselves.

[edits]