Play in Tuluk

[Harmless]

I think if spice were expanded more and made more balanced, powerful, and with sensible changes that make the downsides less troublesome (i.e., having spice aftereffects tick down when logged out the same as alcohol intoxication), then tuluk would be more attractive. (Here is the thread i made about this topic). So, add that to Ouroboros' balance beam; that Tuluk has legal spice and Allanak doesn't. The problem is that due to the concerns you will find in my thread that barely anybody uses spice -- except for a few folks and in special situations.

If a spice that made the negative effects of spice addiction were made available only to true-inked citizens, and the powers of Tuluk encouraged their soldiers, hunters, and other denizens to partake freely and use spice to make Tuluk the scary force that it deserves to be recognized as, then there would likely be more action there, because that's a perk, as has been said -- perks are a good thing.

(I can't take credit for the idea of a spice that reduces/removes addiction negatives, that came from the thread I linked. Making it Tuluk exclusive though would be pretty cool -- perhaps Kurac/Tuluk exclusive.)

Or if there was more of that "brave new world" feel of Tuluk -government handed out happy pills that had cool effects (soma), this could also be player-initiated with a funding source.

Anyway, the possibilities of what can be done are endless, and because spice is already legal there and in-game, player-initiated actions can certainly contribute to Tuluk becoming a little more awesome. There are a lot of good ideas in this thread, and I like the ones that can be pursued by players with mastercrafts and a little staff support. If Tuluk were the only way you could get lenses and make a telescope that would be awesome, and I think with enough roleplay and development with the right sources of support (Dasari certainly comes to mind), then this could be done eventually.

[Patuk]

Liratheans, staff's ability to point out winners, probably.

[nauta]

Adding something like the rinth to Tuluk would facilitate something that is quite fun in Nak, namely: cops and robbers fun.  

In fact, in Nak, the nuance is pretty pleasing and not just cops and robbers paint by numbers plots, with a lot of nuances between the Guild and the Templarate and the Arm of His Dragon - a lot of corruption at least, and murder.  City-to-city conflict has always struck me as a bit of a stretch (most of those plots I've been involved with have fizzled and died or just been big ol' RPT battles that - my personal opinion - never really interested me for reasons I could articulate elsewhere) - but internal conflict between factions inside a city have been -really- fun in my experience - they've been player driven, and there's a REAL fear factor involved, but it is balanced enough that the criminals can crime at least a bit, and perhaps more relevant, spying is a real option.

My only worry is that it would empty out the rinth playerbase a bit, and then I'd have nobody to PK with my bone club.

Other than the lack of a lawless zone in which to train your backstab and sap and hideout from soldiers, there is nothing preventing you from doing these things in Tuluk as well.

Oh yeah, for sure.  Lawless zones however make the lawless side a lot more dynamic: you get various gangs vying for power, a place to sit around and plot -and- be overheard by the other side (via spies), and, well, ambiance: the place where the freaks, the lame, and the outcasts to congregate, the three-eyed muties, the rogue gicks (maybe not in Tuluk), the sewer stumps, and the cannibals (oh, and elves, because gross).

[Nyr]

If staff ever feels like discussing the bigger picture internally and how Tuluk as a counterpoint to Allanak might be improved, at least you've some ideas and arguments presented in my original post and the aforementioned posts from others.

EDIT: The simplest way I can put it after some thought is this... Allanak (kinda) has magick. Tuluk has... No magick. That's not balance, that's the presence and absence of the same thing. Basically a scale with only one side loaded. Tuluk could use something on it's side of the scale, that can be measured in more than nuance and roleplay guidelines.

Part of why I disagree is that you don't really seem to have an understanding of how things actually are (will mention that below).  The reason I don't really care about discussing it is that I'm not sure discussing it really matters.  In a few cases at least, we've got players that have not played a Tuluki in a while, listing things that they want changed before they'll play, and they do not intend to play one until things are the way they want it to be, and that is unlikely to occur at any point in the near future (if at all, as we can't please every player 100%).  That's fine.  We're going to do what we're going to do (we've mentioned that already) and once something is at a point for staff to implement, you will all be the first to know. 

The request was a simple one--play a Tuluki and give it a shot, and back up some of these open role calls in the area.  There seems to be a good bit of players that do like it the way it is, so take that for what it's worth--maybe the things you don't like about Tuluk aren't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things, and you could stand to branch out and try something new.  Now, you don't have to, but it's being requested as something to try out. 

It looks as though some players aren't willing to give it a shot until their desires are met.  That may be the actual case (literally unwilling to play unless changes happen) or just an artifact of a poll worded poorly (there's no options for people that are willing to play in Tuluk BUT also want to see some additional changes).  Either way, it is what it is.  We'll keep on doing what we're doing.

As for how things actually are, just as a reminder to everyone, this is actually in the docs.

The authority of the Templarate is backed by the Sun King and the abilities of the mind and body that He grants His Faithful servants.

Clarification: that is the current documentation, referring to the current Templarate.

[KankWhisperer]

Why was Tuluk successful in the copper war with the same balance of things, and suddenly so outmatched in everyone's eyes now? Just something i've been thinking about. There seems to be an emphasis on... Tuluk's weakness due to lack of magick availability since Allanak has/can employ it - So there's a need for technological superiority.

Tuluk seems like a loser.  Their omniscient Templars got badly fooled by the tree killers. After the copper wars it was Allanak that established a new permanent base. They couldn't stop Allanak from wrecking gypsies on their doorstep. Allanak expands and established their Ten Serak base afterwards. Even though Kurac barely does any business in Allanak, Tuluk can't get Kurac on their side with Allanak banning spice.

[Rathustra]

Also people who give Tuluk a stab are welcome to send in reports to us, the Northlands team, and let us know your thoughts and feelings over your experiences. Being able to tie criticisms to seeing people actually playing gives us a lot to work with towards better analysing the state of play in the city.

[Rathustra]

Why was Tuluk successful in the copper war with the same balance of things, and suddenly so outmatched in everyone's eyes now? Just something i've been thinking about. There seems to be an emphasis on... Tuluk's weakness due to lack of magick availability since Allanak has/can employ it - So there's a need for technological superiority.

Tuluk seems like a loser.  Their omniscient Templars got badly fooled by the tree killers. After the copper wars it was Allanak that established a new permanent base. They couldn't stop Allanak from wrecking gypsies on their doorstep. Allanak expands and established their Ten Serak base afterwards. Even though Kurac barely does any business in Allanak, Tuluk can't get Kurac on their side with Allanak banning spice.

Could you imagine if things were reversed? Heck, we write some docs and help-files for the place and we get dumpstered in RAT for being unfairly biased.

[BadSkeelz]

Why was Tuluk successful in the copper war with the same balance of things, and suddenly so outmatched in everyone's eyes now? Just something i've been thinking about. There seems to be an emphasis on... Tuluk's weakness due to lack of magick availability since Allanak has/can employ it - So there's a need for technological superiority.

Tuluk seems like a loser.  Their omniscient Templars got badly fooled by the tree killers. After the copper wars it was Allanak that established a new permanent base. They couldn't stop Allanak from wrecking gypsies on their doorstep. Allanak expands and established their Ten Serak base afterwards. Even though Kurac barely does any business in Allanak, Tuluk can't get Kurac on their side with Allanak banning spice.

If you look at the history page as a whole, the win/loss ratio between the cities is pretty even. Allanak being a "Winner" is actually something of a recent development. It sounds like they lost the copper war (Tuluk got more ore), they lost the occupation of Tuluk, Luir's, and the mantis Valley (losing forces each time), and only "Won" against Steinal via magick after their regular forces were defeated. Even at the recent HRPT, by most reports the Allanaki forces got the worst of it until the magick (as in, the Serious Staff Animated Magick) came in.

I'm skeptical whether this has anything to do with why people choose to play in Tuluk or Allanak, though. I think that's more due to flavor differences than performance issues.

[Lizzie]

I "might" play the north again "as is" but I am "likely" to play the north if/when something similar to the Undertuluk is implemented.

[KankWhisperer]

Why was Tuluk successful in the copper war with the same balance of things, and suddenly so outmatched in everyone's eyes now? Just something i've been thinking about. There seems to be an emphasis on... Tuluk's weakness due to lack of magick availability since Allanak has/can employ it - So there's a need for technological superiority.

Tuluk seems like a loser.  Their omniscient Templars got badly fooled by the tree killers. After the copper wars it was Allanak that established a new permanent base. They couldn't stop Allanak from wrecking gypsies on their doorstep. Allanak expands and established their Ten Serak base afterwards. Even though Kurac barely does any business in Allanak, Tuluk can't get Kurac on their side with Allanak banning spice.

If you look at the history page as a whole, the win/loss ratio between the cities is pretty even. Allanak being a "Winner" is actually something of a recent development. It sounds like they lost the copper war (Tuluk got more ore), they lost the occupation of Tuluk, Luir's, and the mantis Valley (losing forces each time), and only "Won" against Steinal via magick after their regular forces were defeated. Even at the recent HRPT, by most reports the Allanaki forces got the worst of it until the magick came in.

I'm skeptical whether this has anything to do with why people choose to play in Tuluk or Allanak, though. I think that's more due to flavor differences than performance issues.

They were asking about perception of weakness. In my mind they expanded territory after copper war.  They expanded after the volcano bomb. Tuluk didn't. They only lost Luir's because someone whipped out the anti-magic box.

[lairos]

I suppose I will go ahead and throw in my 2 cents for what its worth.

I have had a chance to play in Tuluk with a Tuluki not only before the changes but I have also had some playtime during and after the changes have occurred. I would still play in Tuluk as it is but I am in a character I am too involved in to change for just anything.

I will start off with why I feel the playerbase as a whole around Tuluk and not just Tuluki citzens has decreased.
After the changes the entire game world has had an added Racism in certain places and yet Tuluk has taken it a whole step further by basically restricting most of the city and most of the "usual" hangouts that most of the Tuluk players would interact and spend their tavern sitting time. Cutting Tuluk down to size in my opinion was a great move because it was just too big without reason though the restriction made it that much smaller. As a non-citizen there is no real want to spend time in Tuluk because of this which causes most of the tribals and otherwise to hang out in Allanak more than what was in the past. What if Nak were to suddenly start doing a check to not let a single person with a tattoo in? The difference in how long it takes you to get to the other gate of Allanak to enter is massively different than getting to the opposite entrance to Tuluk.

Changes I really like that have happened:
Adding the Tribal usage back into Tuluk was a great step and added more playability.
Adding the Shadow Artist System has been my favorite addition because it really does show off a LOT of skill and the subtly of it is fantastic. You may never look at any citizen the same way again. I would love to see this grow.
Adding the magic defense system was a great addition.
Adding a bit more of a grittiness to Tuluk recently because lets be honest, were not all highborn.

Changes I would like to see:
I used to enjoy Under Tuluk and was a pretty big draw for me to begin with and made Tuluk more interesting. I would like to see this or something like it added back.
I would like to see less restriction on the area's inside and to different areas to pull more outside playability back into Tuluk. If your from Tuluk you can hide your way in and around Nak but not reverse. I still think its a good addition in some places but right now it feels like it is just too much.
I would like to see either changes on the outside of Nak to reflect closer to actual size like Tuluk or change Tuluk outside to reflect more like Nak does. (I know this takes a lot of effort on other side however.)
As much as we have steered away from player slavery I would love to see the Lyskae Warriors back in action.
Get the Houses able to hire their own soldier types like Tor, Winrothol and and the like as that was a major draw as well.
Some kind of technology or even the implement of some sort of Psionic gemmed or something would be fantastic.

The variation between Tuluk and Allanak has always been seemingly Tuluki tactics of being cunning, clever and subtle compared to Allanak's brutal, power hungry, forceful. (Pretty much Jedi VS Sith haha)
Both have their own uniqueness and both have different appeal to different players. Tuluk has just seen a much more drastic change than anywhere else and Allanak has not seen much so perhaps players are just going where they feel comfortable since they know what to expect as Tuluk is becoming a whole new beast that has yet to be broken in.

These may be rambled thoughts and I apologize I am a bit worn out.

[Nyr]

Their omniscient Templars got badly fooled by the tree killers.

very related
slightly related

[Inks]

I don't mind Tuluk being a mundane paradise but it's really hard for a criminal to exist there. UT coming back would be amazing. Just say it drained out. Criminals give the legion something to do in the walls.

I wasn't a huge fan of the Volcano getting moved thing. I mean..it's a  volcano. Deus ex machina stuff doesn't sit so well with me.

Tuluk seems like an alright place to have a  character though, with the addition of a lawless zone it would add so much.

[HavokBlue]

I still hold that you can play a criminal now.

You can play a dirty unlicensed Warrens rat stealing and thieving and whatever.

You can play a licensed artist.

I would even say you can get on the payroll of certain clans and get support for your licensed/unlicensed crime rackets.

[Ouroboros]

Part of why I disagree is that you don't really seem to have an understanding of how things actually are (will mention that below).

Either you forgot to point out why you feel I don't have an understanding of how things are, or I missed your point entirely. From where I'm sitting I do feel I have a pretty good understanding of how things are in the North and what changes have taken place. But I'm willing to admit I don't have a clue if you can actually point out why you think that.

The reason I don't really care about discussing it is that I'm not sure discussing it really matters.

Ok. That's fine? I wasn't asking you to discuss it here if you didn't feel there was merit to it. I said that if staff feels the need to discuss it in the future, internally, you guys have some ideas here. Clearly it is something that's at least come up on the backend, given Rathustra's thoughts on it. So... Discuss it or not, it really doesn't matter. Everyone here is just offering feedback on how playing in Tuluk can be improved as an experience.

The request was a simple one...

Yeah. Try the new and improved Tuluk out, we get it. You have several pages of reasons players are telling you why they wouldn't want to and/or how they feel their experience could be improved if they did. Some people aren't willing to play as is, some are willing to but still feel there's room for improvement, and some are groovy about things as they stand. It's not a ransom demand though and you don't need to get defensive about it. You asked us to play there, that's why this thread started. If you don't care for the feedback simply ignore it, as you've kinda stated you intend to. You don't need to call us crazy or unfamiliar with the environment just because we don't feel inclined to play there though. Especially when we're telling you why.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'd really rather all these suggestions for improvements/additions were added to other areas of the game. Areas that haven't received the same sort of attention that Tuluk has recently. At the end of the day that's up to staff though.

There's an argument to be made. If the player-base can't get behind all the recent additions enough for them to try playing in Tuluk more often, what actually makes you think trying to add and change more stuff will have any effect?

Tuluk was recently MASSIVELY changed. But all I'm hearing is "Give us more, we want more, more more more."

[Twilight]

I also would like to see some changes on the criminal side.  In my case, however, this is not driven by the destruction of UT.  It is driven by the changes to licensed crime.  Before the new Shadow Artistry, you could have real crime, that the individual criminal is looking to do, licensed.  Now the crime that is licensed is never that of the real criminal doing the crime.  I can't make my pickpocketing to fill my own belly "legal" anymore, just to carry out the mission of someone else.

This, more than the destruction of UT, changed the nature of "real" crime in Tuluk.  From what I remember of what was posted when Shadow Artistry went live, it didn't seem like this was looked at, although it certainly should have been.  This is more on the social side, I will admit.  My guess is that it is more than possible to codedly be a real criminal.  Its more on what happens when you get caught (then vs now), because eventually this will happen because...there is no real good place to run to, like in Nak.

[Aruven]

Their omniscient Templars got badly fooled by the tree killers.

very related
slightly related

Badskeelz mentioned the history Nyr cited here more specifically.

The last HRPT is something i'm not going to talk about, not so much because of the outcome (an outcome can never be predicted.... kind of), but more because certain factions and people were basically powerless, because the staff had something in mind that was going to happen regardless. In my opinion there were a lot of very sensible things that could have been done differently IC and they were not, because the desired game changes OOC could not have gone forward. So now people have this opinion that Tuluk is some sort of giant care bear powerless to defend itself.

I also noticed someone in one of those links convinced the staff that tuluk is too 'safe'. Wtf ? Tuluk is literally surrounded by things that can codedly kill (any day) PCs with relatively little ease. Ask for more diversity. Don't ask for freakier shit.

[Aruven]

I still hold that you can play a criminal now.

You can play a dirty unlicensed Warrens rat stealing and thieving and whatever.

You can play a licensed artist.

I would even say you can get on the payroll of certain clans and get support for your licensed/unlicensed crime rackets.

We've both said the same things a couple times now. People don't want to hear that shit.

[slvrmoontiger]

Summary ;

*People are bitter about psionics (Which by the way is hilarious, if you understand how psionics are actually played out in the game outside of 'that sekrit order' everyone hates)
*People don't like Tuluk because the culture is too confusing and seemingly limiting
*People don't like Tuluk because there are not many places to twink out skills inside the walls and commit crime easily
*People don't like Tuluk because the player-base is too small to support two city-states
*People don't like Tuluk and/or tattoos because... Um...

I'm being a little extreme in the descriptions but this is where my mind is going reading the other replies.

I suppose i'm the only one that played this game initially because of Tuluk? Rebellion, Kul, Isar, many of those those stories made me love the game. That's where the storyline led me, that's where I wanted to be. Reading through this makes me think that this talk is going to lead to another massive 'game change' which involves my favorite place not existing anymore.

Tuluk has always been my favorite place to play. I stayed with Armageddon because I love Tuluk. I just hate how much of a ghost city it's become lately. I love the rich stories. I love the fact that I've had characters that have been Tuluk citizens during a lot of the most instrumental history of the city. I love the bards... True bards and they did exist and have existed before.

I love the culture. For the players out there talking about how it's too difficult to learn and such and too much documentation... Well culture takes a lot to learn it takes documentation to form or else people would be unaware of what it is. You have culture in your RL family that you have learned over your lifetime, well if you were to write down all the things that your RL family does differently and that makes it YOUR family, I'm sure you'd have pages and a pages and possibly even a book for an outsider to read.

Bards are not just entertainers, if anyone cared to read the documentation they'd understand this. It's sad that people criticize Tuluk and the players that do play there for being original and having a sense enough to personalize their characters and not just follow some silly little script. That's what RP is all about. You follow what your character is. Sure it might not be step for step what the documentation calls for, but it's YOUR character and you are allowed to form that character as richly as YOU want to.

Is there secretness in Tuluk? Yes there is lots and lots of things that are secret and behind the scenes. That's what makes it original and NOT Allanak. Wouldn't it be boring if all places in the game were just like Allanak? For me yeah it would be dull, boring, and unimaginative.

I understand a lot of people feeling restricted by being a citizen and needed tattoos. That is a difficult situation, but it's not something that entirely forces you out of Allanak. There are gloves, there are necklaces and pendants. Just get creative people. You can easily cover up tattoos and if you learn to speak like a southerner and keep away from doing anything that draws attention to yourself you can travel to Allanak just as easily as anyone from Luir's or a tribal could. Personally, I think this was a pretty lame ass excuse for whoever said it. I've had Tuluki citizens go to Allanak on their own and blend in without anyone noticing anything about where they were from.

For everyone whining about how hard it is to learn about Tuluk you need to remember how hard it is to learn about Armageddon in general. Trying to navigate Allanak has always been crazy difficult for me. I've always had problems with understanding how things work in Allanak. I also tend to stay out of Allanak unless I'm forced there either because OOC reasons or because of IC reasons.

After reading what I've typed and what I've read here I think I'm changing my vote. Tuluk is my favorite place to play. I just wish there were more players that could play there. I don't want major overhauls to Tuluk, just a better population. Last time I played there you could sit in a tavern at peak gaming time and over half of the citizens in that tavern would be Faithful or Chosen. That's what needs to be changed as the population of a city isn't mostly rulers in RL. We need more players who want to play citizens in Tuluk.

[HavokBlue]

I still hold that you can play a criminal now.

You can play a dirty unlicensed Warrens rat stealing and thieving and whatever.

You can play a licensed artist.

I would even say you can get on the payroll of certain clans and get support for your licensed/unlicensed crime rackets.

We've both said the same things a couple times now. People don't want to hear that shit.

I guess I'm just confused when I see things like posts that say you can't play a criminal when that's... entirely not the case...

Theft is illegal in Allanak. Theft is illegal in Tuluk. If you get caught for theft in Allanak, you might be punished. If you get caught for theft in Tuluk, you might be punished. Lord Templar Blueballs might throw you in the arena for not bowing or groveling enough and Faithful Lady Tressy-tress might disappear you for unlicensed theft, but more likely than not, neither of those things are going to happen.

Are you worried you can't find a place to hide out? There are apartments and rooftops in the Warrens. There is a rough bar with curtained booths that the high and mighty rich people (or even halfway respectable people) avoid because the poors and foreigners go there.

Are you worried about the crimcode? Any crime that runs the risk of triggering the crimcode in Tuluk faces the same problem in Allanak. There are ways around it.

Are you worried about not having any sort of coded/clan/political support because the Guild doesn't exist in Tuluk? There are clans that probably have a vested interest in managing and even supporting their local criminals.

Are you worried you aren't being subtle enough? It's been made pretty clear that the old iteration of Tuluki subtlety is not a thing anymore.

[slvrmoontiger]

I, too, played for those reasons Aruven. But also the poll numbers don't lie. Most people like playing in Tuluk the way it (now) is.

I'm really baffled by the pole here vs the pole found on the other topic about favorite place to play. I'm trying to figure out why 27 people here say they'd play in Tuluk regardless of any changes, yet there's only a handful of people that voted that their favorite place to play is in Allanak.

[Patuk]

I voted 1 here because I would, and have, play in Tuluk's current form.

I voted Allanak in that poll because I consider it to be way, way, way more fun.

[valeria]

I love Tuluk.  I'd play there all the time if I didn't get bored playing in the same place all the time.

[BadSkeelz]

I'd like to hear more reasons for why Tuluk is fun to play in and less reasons for why it sucks. I think part of its problem is it's become a victim of its own reputation of a ghost-town.