Play in Tuluk

[bcw81]

Tuluk has, in my personal opinion, suffered greatly from a lack of a rinth-equivalent quarter. I remember the days of Under Tuluk.

Even with the omni-present authority issues that plague Tuluk and make it almost impossible to play a true criminal there...Under Tuluk still allowed a few to exist, even if they couldn't come topside a great deal.

I would love to see something like an "Under Tuluk" reestablished in Tuluk through rioting/natural disasters/social economic collapse.....insert anything to make part of the city not crushed by an all-knowing all-seeing law enforcement presence.

Going on probably 6 years now, I've been thinking that instead of Under Tuluk as it existed, there should be a "Foreigners Quarter". Not as a have for crime, specifically, but as a place to keep people in one area. Over time, PCs would start using it as a "base of operations" of sorts, but frankly speaking the Templarate would have total control (... hah) over what goes in and out of there.

But, again... "Why would not want to be licensed" is the simple point. ICly, there's no reason not to. OOCly, its damned inconvenient, high pressure, and maybe you just want to "buck the system" and not get pointed out faster than an apartment-casting 'gick.

I would really like to point out that there is no reason to be inked as an artist if you don't want to take contracts or otherwise. Stealing things/Murdering things is just as illegal with the tattoo as it is without it, unless you have a contract.

[wizturbo]

I would really like to point out that there is no reason to be inked as an artist if you don't want to take contracts or otherwise. Stealing things/Murdering things is just as illegal with the tattoo as it is without it, unless you have a contract.

I wonder though....

If you're contracted to kill Merchant Amos, and you do, but you also kill his three bodyguards because it was required to kill him....did you commit a crime?  I'm guessing that's up to "interpretation" by the Templarate.

[bcw81]

I would really like to point out that there is no reason to be inked as an artist if you don't want to take contracts or otherwise. Stealing things/Murdering things is just as illegal with the tattoo as it is without it, unless you have a contract.

I wonder though....

If you're contracted to kill Merchant Amos, and you do, but you also kill his three bodyguards because it was required to kill him....did you commit a crime?  I'm guessing that's up to "interpretation" by the Templarate.

It's good to have friends in high places.

[HavokBlue]

I would really like to point out that there is no reason to be inked as an artist if you don't want to take contracts or otherwise. Stealing things/Murdering things is just as illegal with the tattoo as it is without it, unless you have a contract.

I wonder though....

If you're contracted to kill Merchant Amos, and you do, but you also kill his three bodyguards because it was required to kill him....did you commit a crime?  I'm guessing that's up to "interpretation" by the Templarate.

If you're contracted to kill Merchant Amos and end up making a mess of it in the progress, you're not going to get a reputation as a very good Shadow Artist.

[Fujikoma]

Or maybe sometimes you should do some investigating before you agree to the contract, you might just realize, nope, this is a bit more than I was after, sorry, find another artist, I'm off to fingerpaint tubers all over myself.

[Malken]

Or maybe sometimes you should do some investigating before you agree to the contract, you might just realize, nope, this is a bit more than I was after, sorry, find another artist, I'm off to fingerpaint tubers all over myself.

That's not how it works.

[Fujikoma]

Well, then don't play a shadow artists, or I'll have to paint tubers on your boated corpse, and that's no fun at all.

[Desertman]

To answer the question, "Why wouldn't you want to be licensed?".

Because maybe I want to play a criminal in Tuluk that is not an inked citizen.

Because maybe I don't want to answer to the templarate for every job I take.

Because maybe I don't want to be at the templarate's call any time they decide my services are needed.

Because maybe I don't want to be killed the first time I take a job for one Templar that another Templar doesn't approve of for personal reasons. (Been killed more than once for gaining one Templar's favor that another Templar disliked. If one Templar dislikes another, and you become a useful tool to that other Templar, you are basically just a weapon to be gotten rid of by the Templar that dislikes his brother/sister.)

Because maybe my concept isn't a "Loyal Shadowartist", but an actual criminal that works outside of the law....because I like playing actual criminals.

Being an inked "artist" in Tuluk is a very neat concept, but it isn't a criminal concept. You are doing things that the templarate has pre-approved, which makes it no longer illegal, which makes it no longer a crime, which makes you no longer a criminal. If you screw up big time and get "caught", you may be punished, but you aren't being punished for what you did, you are being punished for getting publically caught. This might sound the same to some people, but it isn't. It is the difference between playing Batman that Commissioner Gordon is best friends with and approves of secretly, and playing The Joker. Some people want to be The Joker.

A Templar will ONLY approve you doing a job they approve of. They aren't going to approve any actual crimes that contradict their own personal agenda. I want to play an actual criminal that works outside of the law system. I don't want to play what basically amounts to a Legion soldier with a different rank/designation/insignia and set of rules.

But that's just me.

For the people that will say, "Then play The Joker man, nobody is stopping you.". It would be a lot like playing The Joker if Commissioner Gordon had a GPS monitoring system on his ankle and a radio collar that transmitted everything he said right to his office.

Now to get to the root of the entire conversation. The reason I want it to be easier to play The Joker type criminals (real criminals) in Tuluk, is because it is just infinitely more exciting. It adds a lot more intrigue and danger to the city, and danger and intrigue attracts more players.

[Delirium]

I kind of hate how often I agree with Desertman these days.

[Harmless]

I had a shadow artist twice and BOTH times I blew it by dying to npcs within five rooms of the gates because I am a permanoob. Before I could take on a single contract. 

[Malken]

I'm probably all mixed up and please feel free to correct me, but I thought you could be licensed without being a shadow artist? Meaning that you are still 'licensed' to do petty crimes and the Templars might give you a pass if you ever get caught and then you could also sign up as a shadow artist which then makes Templars hire you for jobs and such.

So I take it you can't be a petty licensed criminal without being a shadow artist as well anymore?

There's also the fact that Staff keeps telling us lately that the time of Templars knowing everything that's being done and everyone's little secrets in Tuluk is gone as well. So that should definitely help as well.

[Desertman]

I'm probably all mixed up and please feel free to correct me, but I thought you could be licensed without being a shadow artist? Meaning that you are still 'licensed' to do petty crimes and the Templars might give you a pass if you ever get caught and then you could also sign up as a shadow artist which then makes Templars hire you for jobs and such.

So I take it you can't be a petty licensed criminal without being a shadow artist as well anymore?

There's also the fact that Staff keeps telling us lately that the time of Templars knowing everything that's being done and everyone's little secrets in Tuluk is gone as well. So that should definitely help as well.

To my knowledge, if you become licensed, even if you never move up the ranks you are still classified as a Shadow Artist and still at the templarate's call.

One might argue that you would be at the templarate's call regardless of if you were a licensed criminal or not....they are templars. The difference is since I got licensed I have given them my name and sdesc willingly instead of staying hidden, so now, I am pretty much in their global cell phone directory....and their cell phones are POWERFUL.

The documentation still reflects that the northern templarate has strong powers of the mind. I would assume that is still accurate.

Tuluki citizens tend to maintain fierce and true feelings of loyalty and almost love towards their Sun King. However, they may well simultaneously feel fear from His Faithful that are empowered with abilities of the mind and body that He grants them.

[Nyr]

Take care not to confuse "easily playable concept" with "playable concept."  Playing an unlicensed criminal is a playable concept, but it is a difficult one that will depend upon one's skill at roleplay and schmoozing (moreso than the equivalent elsewhere).

It is also possible to mix up actual documented systems with what you might think that documented system does.  For instance:

Because maybe I don't want to answer to the templarate for every job I take.

Not quite how it works, but close enough that I wouldn't quibble over this--there are other things you have misconstrued in a bigger way.

Because maybe I don't want to be at the templarate's call any time they decide my services are needed.

You can also tell them no, especially if you have a good reason.

Because maybe I don't want to be killed the first time I take a job for one Templar that another Templar doesn't approve of for personal reasons. (Been killed more than once for gaining one Templar's favor that another Templar disliked. If one Templar dislikes another, and you become a useful tool to that other Templar, you are basically just a weapon to be gotten rid of by the Templar that dislikes his brother/sister.)

This has never happened under this system.  This is an example of the disagreement that some players have about the system, where it is documented one way, staff says it works that way, and some players say that it just doesn't work that way, even though it does.

Being an inked "artist" in Tuluk is a very neat concept, but it isn't a criminal concept. You are doing things that the templarate has pre-approved, which makes it no longer illegal, which makes it no longer a crime, which makes you no longer a criminal. If you screw up big time and get "caught", you may be punished, but you aren't being punished for what you did, you are being punished for getting publically caught. This might sound the same to some people, but it isn't. It is the difference between playing Batman that Commissioner Gordon is best friends with and approves of secretly, and playing The Joker. Some people want to be The Joker.

Why complain that an apple isn't an orange?  Obviously, you prefer a different concept, so play that concept and don't play a licensed shadow artist; no one is forcing you to do that.

A Templar will ONLY approve you doing a job they approve of. They aren't going to approve any actual crimes that contradict their own personal agenda. I want to play an actual criminal that works outside of the law system. I don't want to play what basically amounts to a Legion soldier with a different rank/designation/insignia and set of rules.

But that's just me.

It is just you.  This is not how it works.  

[Desertman]

So the templarate is required to approve jobs that they don't want to approve even if they have personal reasons for not wanting that job to take place?

Very interesting.

Also, if you become extremely useful to one Templar that another Templar dislikes in Tuluk, they aren't allowed to dispose of you?

Also very interesting.

And yes, of course you can tell a Templar no. You've always been able to tell Templar's no. I'm just not so sure that is going to work out great for you unless there is a rule in place saying they can't harm you now for telling them no.

[Miko]

can you special app a PC that already has shadow artist inks? Maybe this isn't a good question to ask in this thread, but now Nyr posted so maybe...

[Desertman]

Why complain that an apple isn't an orange?  Obviously, you prefer a different concept, so play that concept and don't play a licensed shadow artist; no one is forcing you to do that.

The reason I'm complaining talking about this is that it is my opinion that a system that promotes or at least less aggressively stamps out less structured crime is more exciting and in general would promote more roleplay opportunities and fun in Tuluk for a lot of people.

That is a matter of opinion on my part. I'm fine with us having different opinions on that front.

[Malken]

Why complain that an apple isn't an orange?  Obviously, you prefer a different concept, so play that concept and don't play a licensed shadow artist; no one is forcing you to do that.

The reason I'm complaining talking about this is that it is my opinion that a system that promotes or at least less aggressively stamps out less structured crime is more exciting and in general would promote more roleplay opportunities and fun in Tuluk for a lot of people.

That is a matter of opinion on my part. I'm fine with us having different opinions on that front.

I think it highly depends on what sort of crime we're talking about, too.. If you're wanting to start a Guild-like band of criminals in Tuluk, then yeah, you might need Templar approval for sure at first.

But if we're talking petty crimes and the like, the 'harassing' type of crimes as I like to call them, then you could certainly play under the radar easily (I've done so in the last few months, never had any problem with the law), as long as you don't get caught, it's not hard at all. Sure, you might have that one bored Legion PC who's always on your case because you're not in silks and not f-me like, but that's rare.

And so what if you get caught and you're made to be 'licensed'? The Templars are not looking to hire every shitty pickpockets in the city. Unless you go around telling others that you're the best assassin since Muk Utep's mother-in-law, nobody is going to hire someone who's best crime is stealing chunks of bread from bards in the Poet's Circle.

Again, from what I've read and heard, things are changing for the best in Tuluk, crime and non-gps-Templar wise, so maybe you can give it a shot, start small, and see how things are and how they evolve, you might be pleasantly surprised.

(Now remember that this is coming from the most cynical dude on the GDB, so you know you can somewhat trust my words when I say that I think things are changing for the best in an area of the game ;p )

I don't give my stamp of approval for cheap, son.

[Nyr]

So the templarate is required to approve jobs that they don't want to approve even if they have personal reasons for not wanting that job to take place?

Very interesting.

The templarate acts as a broker, and will not reject a contract for any reasons other than the hiring party's lack of social status or their being unable to pay the established fee.

There's loads to read into that.  It doesn't tie their hands; they do have options.  However, the system is set up to have templars be brokers.

Also, if you become extremely useful to one Templar that another Templar dislikes in Tuluk, they aren't allowed to dispose of you?

Also very interesting.

No.  They can.  

The problem is that you're associating "extremely useful to one Templar" with "doing a lot of shadow artist jobs" or maybe even "being a successful shadow artist", which is then implying that the shadow artist is working for that templar.  That is incorrect, just like the assumption that shadow artists are the direct tools of the templarate.

And yes, of course you can tell a Templar no. You've always been able to tell Templar's no. I'm just not so sure that is going to work out great for you unless there is a rule in place saying they can't harm you now for telling them no.

The documentation does cover this in multiple places.  It was revised with such a caveat in place because players gave lots of feedback on it.

can you special app a PC that already has shadow artist inks? Maybe this isn't a good question to ask in this thread, but now Nyr posted so maybe...

Sure.

[Desertman]

That's actually very insightful and helpful and pointed out some things I hadn't taken notice of in terms of playing a Shadow Artist.

The crux of my argument is that the current system does in a lot of ways squash more "independent crime" opportunities a bit too heavy handedly that would otherwise add to the overall enjoyment and popularity of Tuluk. But, that is just my feeling on the issue based on my own experiences. I just like proposing things that I think would help. (I know I don't have a staffer's global viewpoint and only the viewpoint of a player, but, we work with what we have.)

And yes, of course you can tell a Templar no. You've always been able to tell Templar's no. I'm just not so sure that is going to work out great for you unless there is a rule in place saying they can't harm you now for telling them no.

The documentation does cover this in multiple places.  It was revised with such a caveat in place because players gave lots of feedback on it.

I like it.

[Desertman]

Why complain that an apple isn't an orange?  Obviously, you prefer a different concept, so play that concept and don't play a licensed shadow artist; no one is forcing you to do that.

The reason I'm complaining talking about this is that it is my opinion that a system that promotes or at least less aggressively stamps out less structured crime is more exciting and in general would promote more roleplay opportunities and fun in Tuluk for a lot of people.

That is a matter of opinion on my part. I'm fine with us having different opinions on that front.

I think it highly depends on what sort of crime we're talking about, too.. If you're wanting to start a Guild-like band of criminals in Tuluk, then yeah, you might need Templar approval for sure at first.

But if we're talking petty crimes and the like, the 'harassing' type of crimes as I like to call them, then you could certainly play under the radar easily (I've done so in the last few months, never had any problem with the law), as long as you don't get caught, it's not hard at all. Sure, you might have that one bored Legion PC who's always on your case because you're not in silks and not f-me like, but that's rare.

And so what if you get caught and you're made to be 'licensed'? The Templars are not looking to hire every shitty pickpockets in the city. Unless you go around telling others that you're the best assassin since Muk Utep's mother-in-law, nobody is going to hire someone who's best crime is stealing chunks of bread from bards in the Poet's Circle.

Again, from what I've read and heard, things are changing for the best in Tuluk, crime and non-gps-Templar wise, so maybe you can give it a shot, start small, and see how things are and how they evolve, you might be pleasantly surprised.

(Now remember that this is coming from the most cynical dude on the GDB, so you know you can somewhat trust my words when I say that I think things are changing for the best in an area of the game ;p )

I don't give my stamp of approval for cheap, son.

I don't disagree that I like the direction it has been going. There is just a direction I would personally like to see it go beyond the path it is on.

You hear about a lot of notorious criminals in Allanak. I've played a couple. The guys that the law is on the heels of constantly and might take a long time to catch up with, if they ever do...etc...etc...

That is exciting for me.

I'm trying to think of one name in the last few years that ever came out of/operated in Tuluk that fit a similar bill...and I can't. I can think of a half dozen out of Allanak.

I think that is a more exciting gaming experience and adds a lot to the gameplay opportunities and the atmosphere of the world for victims, heroes, criminals, and law enforcement. I think it makes it more fun, and I think having something that would help promote those types in Tuluk, or at least less aggressively knock them down, would make more people enjoy Tuluk more. (I want people to enjoy Tuluk more.)

[Down Under]

Wisp, is a good start, and great example of a Templarate lackey that outgrew just being a simple "Shadow Artist".

[Desertman]

Wisp, is a good start, and great example of a Templarate lackey that outgrew just being a simple "Shadow Artist".

If it has been over a year and wouldn't conflict with current plotlines etc...I would be interested to hear about them just out of curiosity. (The name is unfamiliar to me.)

[Nyr]

On paper, the system is going to say that licensed crime is the way to go, etc, and only vaguely hint at unlicensed stuff.  In actuality, these things swing on a pendulum just like other areas of the game.

[Down Under]

It's been well over a year, but it wasn't my character, so I will only say that they had a network of spies/criminal lackeys, acted quite viciously (killed more people than I can count really), were kind of twinky, but definitely acted within and without the bounds of the system. This was pre all the recent changes, but I definitely think it's almost more possible now than before.

Keep in mind that Templars in Tuluk aren't shining beacons of hope and justice (at least, not anymore). If there's something nasty going on, they probably just want a piece of it. If you're an idiot and don't make the right bribes, then Templars don't look the other way. It's pretty straight-forward, really. They may be 'potent' but not 'omnipotent'.

I think you'd be surprised how easy unlicensed crime is in Tuluk, if you actually gave it a good college try.

[KankWhisperer]

Can a middle-rank GMH non-inked PC use the shadow artist system? Or are they still basically just there to be targets as their 'participation' in the system.