Play in Tuluk

[valeria]

When I was doing art for Tuluk, I specifically asked if the pyramid was a ziggurat or flat sided, and was told it was flat sided.  That really screwed with me, because I'd always pictured it as a ziggurat as well.

[bcw81]

Sort of related: http://kamazotz.deviantart.com/art/Lowland-Maya-Postclassic-Fashion-Set-343999681

so what your saying is fmes can walk around topless

[nauta]

Necro!

Here are some thoughts (my perceptions!).  I'd play in Tuluk, for sure, without changing anything.

a) Foreigners aren't welcome in Tuluk, both OOCly and ICly.  This means foreigners don't come (why not just go to Luir's?), and this means the interaction base is pretty small.  OOCly, the tats (esp. at the warrens) prevent foreigners from really getting anything other than barsitting going.  ICly, I think we all know what's up ICly.

b) It's really private.  I have some idea why, but there's this tendency to move RP into an apartment - and it's not about the mudsex.  I have a hunch this is because people don't feel comfortable talking in public about things; but this means to a random foreigner that does come in (see [a]) the town looks empty.

c) The playerbase is actually pretty small, and the kinds of PCs you see is also pretty small (see point [d]): a lot of Legion PCs and aide PCs and templar PCs.

d) Topheavy.  I think someone mentioned this before, but there are more noble/templar PCs than not, and that's frustrating I think on both sides.

Except (c), a lot of these things also have positive effects.  (a) for instance generates an us vs. them climate.  (b) allows for neat one-on-one RP.  And (d) allows for a lot of fun upper echelon RP.  Sometimes, however, playing in Tuluk feels like playing in the rinth or a sun runner during one of "those" cycles.

[Desertman]

I know several people who OOC'ly stopped playing in Tuluk when barricades went in preventing a lot of them from having any meaningful storage space access.

All they could do was go to Tuluk, sell at the local shops they had access to, sit at the bar, maybe get harassed, and leave. They couldn't put down roots if they wanted to because there was nowhere to put down roots. Surprise, surprise, making it so that every other portion of the playerbase in the game can't actually live in the city hurt the population of the city.

I think foreigners can now again rent places to live in Tuluk? I'm not sure. I hope so. I know it was an issue initially when that change first went in. It made playing anything but a true Tuluki in Tuluk kind of a shit-level arrangement.

[Rathustra]

Glad for the necro. This is a much better place to write some stuff up.

Necro!

Here are some thoughts (my perceptions!).  I'd play in Tuluk, for sure, without changing anything.

a) Foreigners aren't welcome in Tuluk, both OOCly and ICly.  This means foreigners don't come (why not just go to Luir's?), and this means the interaction base is pretty small.  OOCly, the tats (esp. at the warrens) prevent foreigners from really getting anything other than barsitting going.  ICly, I think we all know what's up ICly.

b) It's really private.  I have some idea why, but there's this tendency to move RP into an apartment - and it's not about the mudsex.  I have a hunch this is because people don't feel comfortable talking in public about things; but this means to a random foreigner that does come in (see [a]) the town looks empty.

c) The playerbase is actually pretty small, and the kinds of PCs you see is also pretty small (see point [d]): a lot of Legion PCs and aide PCs and templar PCs.

d) Topheavy.  I think someone mentioned this before, but there are more noble/templar PCs than not, and that's frustrating I think on both sides.

Except (c), a lot of these things also have positive effects.  (a) for instance generates an us vs. them climate.  (b) allows for neat one-on-one RP.  And (d) allows for a lot of fun upper echelon RP.  Sometimes, however, playing in Tuluk feels like playing in the rinth or a sun runner during one of "those" cycles.

a) This is true. It's an interesting thought as there's two sides to this - on the one hand, providing access to non-Tulukis encourages more non-Tulukis to hang out in Tuluk but on the other hand that doesn't actually improve the situation in Tuluk as these aren't Tuluk players, they're 'citizens of the Known'. I think players who can achieve this status probably don't want to be in Tuluk anyway. The tattoo checkers also help concentrate players into a particular area and aren't infallible. Also there's the point that the stuff that the checkers restrict access to is sort of underutilised anyway. It comes down to storage space and hidey-holes.

b) This is well documented but I've never heard a good theory on why players do this. We thought it was the subtlety angle - we're trying to build a case for more brash personalities existing at the bottom end of the social order.

c) As you say, this links to point d...

d) We can't change this outside of forcing people to play in Tuluk (which I'd never support unless it also forced people to play in Allanak). We try and provide the city with movers and shakers so things can move and shake. These role-app'd characters need minions to actually achieve anything. It's trickle-down economics and it works about as well in game as it does IRL.

My opinion on the player numbers in Tuluk is - I will always aim to serve the feel of the game (as interpreted by collaboration with my STs), players who regularly play in Tuluk and players as a whole - in that order. Changing things to appeal to worldly players or to support globe-trotting isn't high on my priorities - these players and those PCs can support themselves. Note that I do believe that there should be tools in place for foreigners to square up to and try and overcome the hardships and adversities they face in Tuluk. But it should still be an unpleasant experience.

[Rathustra]

I know several people who OOC'ly stopped playing in Tuluk when barricades went in preventing a lot of them from having any meaningful storage space access.

All they could do was go to Tuluk, sell at the local shops they had access to, sit at the bar, maybe get harassed, and leave. They couldn't put down roots if they wanted to because there was nowhere to put down roots. Surprise, surprise, making it so that every other portion of the playerbase in the game can't actually live in the city hurt the population of the city.

I think foreigners can now again rent places to live in Tuluk? I'm not sure. I hope so. I know it was an issue initially when that change first went in. It made playing anything but a true Tuluki in Tuluk kind of a shit-level arrangement.

Doublepostin'.

Storage space is a big deal. It's one of those perspective things I struggle with as I never really played a PC with an apartment when I was a player, so coming upstairs and seeing the amount of garbage players get attached to is sort of interesting. I understand completely, however - having a pad and a base is awesome. I suppose it comes down to play styles!

We're aiming to provide 'storage space' on par with the quality of life outsiders in Tuluk should expect. It'll be something but I doubt it'll appeal to the people Tuluk shed when the barriers/'foreigner's quarter' was implemented.

[Fujikoma]

Thing that got me was restricted access to the kilns. Really?! How am I to become a master potter if I'm a non-citizen.

[Rathustra]

Thing that got me was restricted access to the kilns. Really?! How am I to become a master potter if I'm a non-citizen.

Don't worry - we're working on bringing the pleasures of ceramics to the entire Known.

[Desertman]

I know several people who OOC'ly stopped playing in Tuluk when barricades went in preventing a lot of them from having any meaningful storage space access.

All they could do was go to Tuluk, sell at the local shops they had access to, sit at the bar, maybe get harassed, and leave. They couldn't put down roots if they wanted to because there was nowhere to put down roots. Surprise, surprise, making it so that every other portion of the playerbase in the game can't actually live in the city hurt the population of the city.

I think foreigners can now again rent places to live in Tuluk? I'm not sure. I hope so. I know it was an issue initially when that change first went in. It made playing anything but a true Tuluki in Tuluk kind of a shit-level arrangement.

Doublepostin'.

Storage space is a big deal. It's one of those perspective things I struggle with as I never really played a PC with an apartment when I was a player, so coming upstairs and seeing the amount of garbage players get attached to is sort of interesting. I understand completely, however - having a pad and a base is awesome. I suppose it comes down to play styles!

We're aiming to provide 'storage space' on par with the quality of life outsiders in Tuluk should expect. It'll be something but I doubt it'll appeal to the people Tuluk shed when the barriers/'foreigner's quarter' was implemented.

I really liked the idea of having certain "upper crest" areas reserved by tattoo checkers for the "upper crest" of society only. It felt very "caste system Armageddon get-shit-on-peon-peasant-garbage".

What I never did understand (I'm not saying there isn't a good reason, I'm just saying I don't understand) was why areas of the city where human garbage would be living was suddenly not accessible to foreigners.

Why does the city care if their peon quarters are accessed by dirty foreigners? Why are the peasants of Tuluk in all of their squalor being protected from the intrusions of the foreign garbage? Would Tuluk's templarate and nobility really care?

If Tuluk's nobility and templarate does care that much about their dirty commoners in their dirty commoner areas....that really lends its self in my opinion to the misconception that life in Tuluk is easier for commoners and the commoners there are less dirty and better cared for/taken care of.

Personal opinion.

I love caste society separation for the purpose of pointing out how dirty and horrible life in Zalanthas would be for a commoner.

I don't really care for the idea of the peasants getting their shitty little areas "protected" as well.

[Down Under]

I think it's about control.

Just as Nazi's in the Third Reich rounded up the Jews and put them in their Ghettos, I think the Tuluki Templarate wants to put all the foreigners where they can be watched and controlled.

I agree that the Warrens seems like an unlikely candidate for monitoring, but it's also an area of the city that isn't monitored very well to begin with. And a great place for foreigners or dissident elements to take root, so I can see why it's controlled as well.

[Desertman]

Which leads into my point exactly. It -would- be a great place for foreigners and criminal elements to take root and add some intrigue and plotlines and actual corruption and crime to Tuluk....it would be ideal for adding in and letting some gritty elements survive....but they have the same code in place to protect them that they have in place to protect the most luxurious high-class tavern in the city.

[Malken]

I think it's about control.

Just as Nazi's in the Third Reich rounded up the Jews and put them in their Ghettos, I think the Tuluki Templarate wants to put all the foreigners where they can be watched and controlled.

I agree that the Warrens seems like an unlikely candidate for monitoring, but it's also an area of the city that isn't monitored very well to begin with. And a great place for foreigners or dissident elements to take root, so I can see why it's controlled as well.

Funny story, Muk Utep means Hitler in a language I just invented two minutes ago.

[nauta]

I think it's about control.

Just as Nazi's in the Third Reich rounded up the Jews and put them in their Ghettos, I think the Tuluki Templarate wants to put all the foreigners where they can be watched and controlled.

I agree that the Warrens seems like an unlikely candidate for monitoring, but it's also an area of the city that isn't monitored very well to begin with. And a great place for foreigners or dissident elements to take root, so I can see why it's controlled as well.

There's IC stuff about it and OOC stuff about it.  ICly, yeah, the argument goes through (or the other argument, I mean, it's spooky templar magics!). OOCly, in my experience, if people really want crime / grime plots to get going, you need to let the criminals / griminals (which will be, due to low player counts, a mix of foreigners and locals) meet and plot and cook up.  So, OOCly, it's sort of a playability thing, and the trickle would be I think good: you'd get more of those grimy PCs we all want (not every warrens rat is a criminal just like not every rinth rat is - there's just this vibe of grime and dirt), which in turn would feed into neat plots for Legion and upper echelon PCs.  It's like a trickle-up theory, hehe.  (Personally, I think population centres should strive to maintain two major plot divisions: outwards, i.e., the war, which is staff / upper echelon PC driven for the most part, and inwards, which is the crime, which is more mundane PC driven for the most part.)

[Desertman]

Tuluk has, in my personal opinion, suffered greatly from a lack of a rinth-equivalent quarter. I remember the days of Under Tuluk.

Even with the omni-present authority issues that plague Tuluk and make it almost impossible to play a true criminal there...Under Tuluk still allowed a few to exist, even if they couldn't come topside a great deal.

I would love to see something like an "Under Tuluk" reestablished in Tuluk through rioting/natural disasters/social economic collapse.....insert anything to make part of the city not crushed by an all-knowing all-seeing law enforcement presence.

[Desertman]

Of course, the other end of that is we don't want to create just a "northern Allanak".

I guess it is a fine line to walk and maintain. If you go too gritty, you basically just create Allanak and the Rinth the northern version, which ruins a lot of great things about Tuluk.

[Malken]

I'm not really sure by what you guys mean when you say it's hard to play a criminal in Tuluk..

One of my last Tuluki character was a thief and I never had any troubles hiding out in the warrens the few times I was caught, or to just be myself and hang out in taverns without constantly being harassed by Templars or Legion PCs.

The only thing that will make it hard to play a 'true' criminal in Tuluk is the mentality and smallness of the playerbase, where if you are caught stealing from a PC you're pretty much fucked in a non-IC (mostly OOC) way since everyone that plays there will know that you're a pickpocket and might play on it to keep you away from their RP. (Even though licensed crime should be almost celebrated)

Tuluk attracts a certain.. Elitist playerbase (Hey, I'd almost say I'm one of them, so I'm not pointing fingers) that makes you want to hang out with other PCs that have the same.. Mentality.. Tuluk is like.. Refined and.. Urgh... Noble? I don't have the time nor the words to make it more clear but you guys know what I mean, hence the apartment-rp. You have the bards PCs who mostly hang out with other bard PCs and the hunters who mostly hang out with other hunters (or nobody) and then you have the dirty Warren dudes who have almost no one to hang out with because generally, when someone wants to play a petty two-bits criminal, they do it in the rinth.

Now if I only had more time to play, I'd be the fucking change. I have the PC and the will to do it, now all I need is some free time.

[Desertman]

If you survived as an unlicensed (real) criminal in Tuluk that interacted regularly in a criminal fashion with people/things other than NPC's...my hat is off to you Sir. You have done what I could not.

[Malken]

If you survived as an unlicensed (real) criminal in Tuluk that interacted regularly in a criminal fashion with people/things other than NPC's...my hat is off to you Sir. You have done what I could not.

No, I was licensed.. Why would you want to not be licensed?

[Patuk]

Sit in what taverns?

[Down Under]

The Blue Vestric?

I feel one problem with this thread is a lot of the nay-sayers don't play in Tuluk, so it's a lot of speculation from afar and misremembered 'truths'.

[Fujikoma]

I've played there since the changes, while I approve of them I can see the point some people are getting at, which is if you want a bigger population with more grit, easing up a little on the xenophobia might help, also, lawless area, as has been said is being worked on, would help a bit. What's naysayer? Who's saying nay?

[Patuk]

'They just don't get it' is a really easy complaint to make in any discussion. You don't need to prove any points for us. 'They don't get it so everything they say is wrong' adds nothing to this thread.

I also don't think the Vestric suits Tuluk's poor element very well. Nobles walk in every other day.

[HavokBlue]

'They just don't get it' is a really easy complaint to make in any discussion. You don't need to prove any points for us. 'They don't get it so everything they say is wrong' adds nothing to this thread.

I also don't think the Vestric suits Tuluk's poor element very well. Nobles walk in every other day.

I don't think the nobles walking into the Blue Vestric are expecting it to be a 'nice' bar.

I think they know full well they're slumming it as much as is socially acceptable. They probably wouldn't be caught dead in the Tooth without a good reason.

[Dakota]

I think the changes in Tuluk are actually going in the right direction. I've played a lot in Tuluk over the past few years and their is a considerable difference between a few years ago vs now... And its a lot better.

I don't think the changes are "over" per-say which is also very positive. I think what staff are doing and working on re: Tuluk is actually sculpting it out to be a pretty cool place to RP. You can be a -real- criminal now. It's still hard and you don't really have a place to call home (warrens need work and UnderTuluk is gone). But compared to 2 years ago? Pfft. Way possible.

Tuluk though really is only as good as its Nobles / Templars.  Tuluk is top heavy and will always be that way.  It's by design (and thats fine).  Thankfully certain aspects of that Top Heavy element were merged and neutered... leaving the players of Tuluk a much more fun, reasonable and realistic place to play.

[Riev]

Tuluk has, in my personal opinion, suffered greatly from a lack of a rinth-equivalent quarter. I remember the days of Under Tuluk.

Even with the omni-present authority issues that plague Tuluk and make it almost impossible to play a true criminal there...Under Tuluk still allowed a few to exist, even if they couldn't come topside a great deal.

I would love to see something like an "Under Tuluk" reestablished in Tuluk through rioting/natural disasters/social economic collapse.....insert anything to make part of the city not crushed by an all-knowing all-seeing law enforcement presence.

Going on probably 6 years now, I've been thinking that instead of Under Tuluk as it existed, there should be a "Foreigners Quarter". Not as a have for crime, specifically, but as a place to keep people in one area. Over time, PCs would start using it as a "base of operations" of sorts, but frankly speaking the Templarate would have total control (... hah) over what goes in and out of there.

But, again... "Why would not want to be licensed" is the simple point. ICly, there's no reason not to. OOCly, its damned inconvenient, high pressure, and maybe you just want to "buck the system" and not get pointed out faster than an apartment-casting 'gick.