Play in Tuluk

[Patuk]

Zalanthas' technology level is much higher than its lack of metal warrants already. I am not a fan of the technology advocates.

[bcw81]

For everyone saying 'Tuluk is weak', I ask you to find out IC.

That shit's crazy.

[Armaddict]

For everyone saying 'Tuluk is weak', I ask you to find out IC.

That shit's crazy.

Seriously.  I have no idea how it turned into that when it's been a preference issue for a good, long time.

[BadSkeelz]

I'm largely with Armaddict on this one.

The reason Tuluk is played in less is because for many people, the 'feel' of Allanak is what is Armageddon is.  Tuluk has a different feel.  Not  a worse one, just a different one.  So they don't switch away from the one that 'feels' more genuinely seated to them.  This discussion has been had so many times, and trying to turn this into a 'Tuluk needs moar power' thing is frankly just weird.

However, I think there might be some other problems for the low population of Tuluk - that it's (allegedly) so easy to survive up there. In Allanak, if you go out on to the desert alone you're taking your life in your hands. I think this encourages people to hang around and interact with each other, to join clans, to work together against the danger of the Environment (and other players). If everyone in Tuluk can just be a successful indie hunter without any need to plug themselves in to a complicated social fabric, they're going to go their own way.

[Armaddict]

I'm largely with Armaddict on this one.

The reason Tuluk is played in less is because for many people, the 'feel' of Allanak is what is Armageddon is.  Tuluk has a different feel.  Not  a worse one, just a different one.  So they don't switch away from the one that 'feels' more genuinely seated to them.  This discussion has been had so many times, and trying to turn this into a 'Tuluk needs moar power' thing is frankly just weird.

However, I think there might be some other problems for the low population of Tuluk - that it's (allegedly) so easy to survive up there. In Allanak, if you go out on to the desert alone you're taking your life in your hands. I think this encourages people to hang around and interact with each other, to join clans, to work together against the danger of the Environment (and other players). If everyone in Tuluk can just be a successful indie hunter without any need to plug themselves in to a complicated social fabric, they're going to go their own way.

Valid.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm not sure I agree, especially with recent additions to the south.

North has things that can reel-lock and kill you instantly. Has thing that can poison you in a variety of crazy ways. I could make a case for the north's wilderness being more dangerous, but in reality it's all in what you know. If you know what is dangerous then you can prepare for it, or avoid those dangers.

It's just as easy to be an indie hunter in the south as it is the north these days. Which is to say it can be hard as fuck if you don't know to avoid Mekillots.

[Zoan]

I once played a 'great mind' merchant from Red Storm, who due to the nature of the world was wasted potential. They could have changed the world with their theories on engineering.

I didn't give much to it, but maybe if anyone were to play a character, and form their own family through hard sweat, and eventually have the funding and backing to invent the world's first trebuchet...

[Armaddict]

I once played a 'great mind' merchant from Red Storm, who due to the nature of the world was wasted potential. They could have changed the world with their theories on engineering.

I didn't give much to it, but maybe if anyone were to play a character, and form their own family through hard sweat, and eventually have the funding and backing to invent the world's first trebuchet...

Tried to have Tor do siege engines and war machines.  Spent lots of money.  Wrote books about it. Failed.

[Nergal]

I'm not sure I agree, especially with recent additions to the south.

North has things that can reel-lock and kill you instantly. Has thing that can poison you in a variety of crazy ways. I could make a case for the north's wilderness being more dangerous, but in reality it's all in what you know. If you know what is dangerous then you can prepare for it, or avoid those dangers.

It's just as easy to be an indie hunter in the south as it is the north these days. Which is to say it can be hard as fuck if you don't know to avoid Mekillots.

Not to detract from the discussion at large here too much, but the goal of the new critters that were added to the game relatively recently was to balance out the amounts of easy, middling, and difficult creatures there are in the world. There are tough animals around Tuluk and weaker ones around Allanak, and things will continue to be tweaked as needed to ensure that it is never "safe" to go outside the walls of whichever city you play in.

[Norcal]

[

I really did expect to get a wall text bomb from some person about this response, which Taven, is why I did not elaborate in my first post. So no surprises there.  My only surprises are:
A. Looks like they used an Alt.  
B. The words put into my mouth such as Vending machine for crafts. That is not -at all- what I have in mind.

There are sooo many amazing possibilities that the Circle could move towards.  A place where those with desire could come and learn about, the arts of every kind (including applied and "industrial"),  and be taught in subjects like history and etiquette, and why not a bit of tech?  Aspect of all these things already exist in the circle.

If as the poster seems to suggest by their motto, the only way to change the game is from the inside out, then this thread is pointless.  Perhaps a good many feel that the GDB is pointless. Now that would be an interesting poll question.

[Ouroboros]

There are sooo many amazing possibilities that the Circle could move towards.  A place where those with desire could come and learn about, the arts of every kind (including applied and "industrial"),  and be taught in subjects like history and etiquette, and why not a bit of tech?  Aspect of all these things already exist in the circle.

Some relevant thoughts from what I had shared during the shartist reform discussion last year...

...artistry of that nature isn't handled by the Bardic Circle, even if individual bards have sometimes dabbled in it. They do certainly have arcs of learning, but they revolve around aspects of Culture and Performing Arts, not Art. Art refers specifically to visual arts, whereas the Arts as a term encompass all creative endeavors (including literary arts and performance arts, which the Bards focus on). You might think the Bardic Circle should dominate art as well, others might disagree (as I would), but that's irrelevant to what they actually do focus on. If this -was- to be handled through the Bardic Circle, then it would at the very least warrant the addition of a new circle dedicated to visual arts alone, without forcing them to have to sing and dance as well just to be recognized as painters. But that would make for a rather odd Circle.

Given the direction things have taken with Tuluk I'd probably recant my stance today and throw support behind visual arts represented in the Circle. Not because I feel it's the ideal solution, which for me remains support for artists on an individual level by society as a whole, but because... The ideal just ain't gonna happen any time soon. So between nothing or bards, it might as well be bards.

[Ouroboros]

Also in response to some concerns about Tuluk's perceived weakness... I see it less an issue of virtual weakness and more an issue of coded and game-wide balance.

Tuluk isn't a weaker city-state in my book, though it's strength is mostly supported by virtual manpower. It's a weaker brand; a weaker icon. It's about cultural identity in some ways. It's hard to put in words but if I was looking at Tuluk as a client the first thing I would say is that it lacks... a gimmick? Good a term as any. Tuluk's brand pretty much stands on documentation and subjective superiority, whereas Allanak contrasts Tuluk on each point in terms of culture and expands on that with some hard-coded benefits.

The southern gemmed for example don't just provide war-time combat ability to an on-going conflict. They're an integral part of Allanak's culture, as representatives of that city-state's harnessing of magickal power. They speak to what the city's about. And they also provide unique roles for many players to participate in, as opposed to just a handful of applicants. Even if we were to say Tuluk's gimmick is mental prowess, there isn't much to point to in support of that outside of a handful of special app Faithful roles. If that's to be the city-state's gimmick, then it needs some teeth.

The same applies for the Labyrinth, an area beyond the reach of the law. The experience there is vastly different than what could be achieved through the Warrens (in their current incarnation), because it actually provides a completely different feel than playing inside the lawful quarters of the city. You feel like you're truly in a lawless land, fighting tooth and nail for survival. Whether you can successfully evade crim flags in Tuluk doesn't matter, you just don't get the same experience in the Warrens. Because it's not a land-within-a-land, like the 'rinth is and UT was, it's still just a Quarter. Tuluk can't compete with that experience for players seeking such, at least today.

It can come down to something as simple as how authentic the feeling of patriotism was in playing a proud citizen of each city-state. It could just be me, but representing Allanak always seems to give me a more authentic feeling and stronger immersion than representing Tuluk does. The later sometimes just feels... phoned-in. Or like I'm talking a big game without being able to back it if push were to meet shove. Yeah ok, I'm superior and they're barbarians, but why? Because documentation suggests my people are smarter and more subtly cultured? I need more to stand on.

More coded power on Tuluk's side might benefit the war and bring some balance to a problem that currently relies on PC citizens to fix, but the overall issue is bigger than war. It's about balancing things in a way that makes a player sit and really have a hard time deciding where they want to play. To let the choice rest almost entirely on the character they want to play, without having to weigh strengths and weaknesses between the North and South. In short... a level playing field, where choice is entirely a matter of taste.

[Rathustra]

I'd really rather all these suggestions for improvements/additions were added to other areas of the game. Areas that haven't received the same sort of attention that Tuluk has recently. At the end of the day that's up to staff though.

There's an argument to be made. If the player-base can't get behind all the recent additions enough for them to try playing in Tuluk more often, what actually makes you think trying to add and change more stuff will have any effect?

Tuluk was recently MASSIVELY changed. But all I'm hearing is "Give us more, we want more, more more more."

This isn't a direct response to this post, as I'm not 100% sure if what I'm reading in the post is even there, but it's worth saying anyway as it applies to everything:

Staff building is split up along the same lines as clan groups - so the same lines that requests are done through. So all the changes you're seeing in Tuluk vs. everywhere else is not due to the staff as a whole deciding that we need to 'fix' or 'give more' to Tuluk - it's due to Tuluki staff deciding on a course of action and putting in the work, usually with very little outside help.

When Nyr and Co. were putting in the work to revamp the city I was sat on my ass working at a much slower pace to finish up some tribal documentation. Now Nyr's in the south I'm enjoying working with what Nyr's left me and I want to expound on that as Tuluk is now mine, Xalle's and Nergal's main focus. We might do jobbing in other projects for other staff teams - but we are not all dragooned to undertake all-staff projects.

The reason Allanak has been 'forgotten' has nothing to do with staff leaving it to languish (EDIT: Also it's sort of inaccurate to suggest that this is the case - Southland staff have been working very hard of building for plots and writing new documents for Southern clans) - it's to do with Nyr and his band of merry builder's hard work and efforts. Also it's worth saying that just because Allanak isn't gleaming under a new coat of paste it doesn't mean anyone was slacking - it means that that staff group decided to emphasise the larger playerbase and bring the existing city to life.

Right now we're also focusing on that in the North. Just think - a smaller pool of players with a staff retinue the same size as Allanak. You do the math!

[Is Friday]

New Tuluki gimmick: Make the mutant people poison with their brain. New playable guild.

[Rayonklar]

Hello, my name is Rayonklar. You might recognise me from some recent Tuluk RPT announcements.

I share some opinions from people in this thread in a lot of ways, and I've been very clear to staff about it. Both Rathustra and Nyr have been happy to listen and discuss problems and suggestions, and help with solutions.

When I read a lot here that's negative, it's all based in sins in the past and outright distrust for players, so I'll say the following about Tuluk:

* Fuck quashing plots and PCs without roleplay or cause, no matter who they are
* Fuck quashing crime because it's bad, quash crime that is bad (either poorly thought out or aggressively malicious)
* Fuck silence, super 'subtlety' and fear of saying one word out of place

And I will also say:

* Go crazy, go hard and make fun, and trust your fellow staff and players to support and compete with you without the insta-gib button being pushed.
* Be smart, be sketchy, be bold and trust in staff and players (esp sponsored roles) to respect a degree of lawlessness. Emphasis on the smart.
* Now's the time to step up and forge the spirit of Tuluk going forward: blood, violence, guts and sweary poems, and anything in between that and subtlety.

And I say all of that because I told staff that's what I wanted to see and learnt in turn that that's what they want to see.

Tuluk will never be a carbon copy of Allanak, but it's more malleable and flexible than you think. It needs some solid players to come and make it happen. Come and make it happen.


PS. My major points raised to staff:
1. More crime / support for crime
2. Updated Warrens / commoner support / lawlessness
3. Some 'cool' roles, hopefully supernatural in some manner
4. Relaxation of 'subtlety', encouragement of open discussion
5. War

Murder, corruption and betrayal after all.

[Taven]

I really did expect to get a wall text bomb from some person about this response, which Taven, is why I did not elaborate in my first post. So no surprises there.  My only surprises are:
A. Looks like they used an Alt.

Erm, I hope you're not saying that this alt was me, because it's not. I'm happy to ask and answer under the same name!

B. The words put into my mouth such as Vending machine for crafts. That is not -at all- what I have in mind.

There are sooo many amazing possibilities that the Circle could move towards.  A place where those with desire could come and learn about, the arts of every kind (including applied and "industrial"),  and be taught in subjects like history and etiquette, and why not a bit of tech?  Aspect of all these things already exist in the circle.

First off, I think this is already a thing. The majority of the arts are things bards know about and Seekers and up can teach about, unless something changed. This could cover traditional things such as performance types (instrument playing, theatre, singing, storytelling) as well as broader applied information (etiquette, history, geography, medicine, combat, shadow artistry). It depends entirely on the bardic PCs that are in-game.

In terms of visual art and applied arts this starts to get into GMH territory, IMHO. There have been Circle bards who have made visual art and I'm sure there might be some willing to teach it, but I think that aesthetically pleasing design, and indeed, fashion and decor in general, is more Kadius' thing. The problem with too much focus on visual arts and craft things is that it can easily get away from the main goal of the Circle. As I understand it, the Circle is designed to be out there and engaging people, entertaining and putting on events. Think of them as the Fale of the north, more or less.

If as the poster seems to suggest by their motto, the only way to change the game is from the inside out, then this thread is pointless.  Perhaps a good many feel that the GDB is pointless. Now that would be an interesting poll question.

Haha! That would be the most skewed poll ever. 

More seriously, I'm sorry that you think the GDB isn't very constructive. I think it's here so that staff can listen and evaluate people's thoughts and opinions, and I do think changes can come of it. I also think that there's a lot of validity in the "go and be the change" thought, too. I'm not saying everything is possible to accomplish IC, but it remains the best way to get things done.

[Taven]

Here's some things people reading this thread could do in Tuluk:

• Play a bard and have a goal be applied arts, see if you can gain an interest/reputation with it
• Play a bard whose main goal is to teach on a variety of topics and engage the populace
• Play a Dasari or Dasari minion and develop elite, killer poisons
• Play a Winrothol or Winrothol minion with the goal of tracking down the deadliest beats to breed and tame
• Play a Kassigarh or Kassigarh minion, focused on making coin, through all sorts of helpful or devious schemes
• Play a Tenneshi or Tenneshi minion, analyze Allanaki foundations for weakpoints and sabotage
• Play a Tenneshi or Tenneshi minion, draft and plan defenses and fortifications for upcoming conflict
• Play an independent with a goal of learning how things work and inventing new and more successful ways to do things
• Play someone with the goal of starting an illegal crime group
• Play someone who wants to start a legal group of shadow artists, mentoring them and forming an elite task-force
• Play a southern refugee who desperately wants to earn citizenship
• Play a bynner who wants to follow the teachings of Sujaal and bring back northern byn respectability
• Play a filthy, crude bynner from the warrens, who is just a gritty, bad-ass, southern-killing mercenary
• Play an aide to the Faithful, getting involved in making war a reality, be it by coordinating supply lines or planning sabotage
• Play an aide to a Chosen, with a self-serving attitude, focused on the benefiting the House, regardless of what happens to the city
• Play an aide to a Chosen, focused on making their House the best through making Tuluk better
• Play a partisan with a goal of funding a merchant agency
• Play an independent or partisan who wants a niche role (hair dresser, whore, clay digger, masseuse, interior designer, etc)
• Play someone affected by recent events, who used to be employed by Negean, Uaptal, or Hlum and have them find their way from there (so many possibilities)
• Play a family role of elves who want to be the best shadow artists
• Play a family role of elves with clan support via Rusarla, bring the art of sticky fingers to the entertainment scene
• Play a tribal who wants to better their tribes relations with Tuluk, desiring to use the Merchant System to get a stall in the tribal market

There's a lot of options if you're creative. I've played PCs in Tuluk before, and I had a great time! 

[Norcal]

My point about bards is not to change what bards do already. 

It is to add another dimension I think would be fun to see in game.  I think Tuluk would be a great place for it and bards seem to fit for exactly the reasons you mentioned Taven.

Universities train people all the time, yet I do not consider them to be vending machines for crafts or..whatever. What nonsense.

I think it would be fun to have a place where crafters could go for an IC year or two to build their skills and gain a reputation. Then they can go and work for a GMH or Noble House or wherever with experience under their belt, and a tat that says they have been trained by the best. It is the same thing as many players do in the Byn with a combat char. Meanwhile, their Bardic teachers continue to do bardy things.

Why Tuluk?  For all the reasons I mentioned in my first post. 

Will this happen? Probably not, or perhaps better said NO. Still it's fun to use my imagination.

[shadeoux]

Tuluk being more technologically advanced sounds all and good, but really what would it take for Nak to swipe in and reproduce this or just outright take it with it's hundreds or thousands of gemmed. Tuluk needs something tangible that Nak can't fuck with, something that ultimately stops the gemmed and I have one suggestion that was already suggested.

Void Mages, the most "Tuluk* of all the elementalists - Have Muk come out and say "Hey, we have a new tool." Have them shunned/avoided by the commoners, make them get "Gems" or the equivalent. Use them to "Void" out the volcano and thus thwart Naks plans whatever they are. Hey if you need to surprise Nak, "poof" Quick way to do that with them. I think imho Void mages would fit right in with Tuluk's ideology if they can be properly introduced that is. Maybe don't call them mages, call them something else so they don't get that stigma that the other "witches" do up in Tuluk.

Just my 2 cents.

[FantasyWriter]

News at 11:  "Witchhunters" given the power to nullify and destroy Elementalists by the all-knowing Muk-Utep have now stepped out of the shadows to aide the city in its war against the heathens of the south and their demon-spawned gemmed witches.

[Narf]

I answered "if underTuluk was returned" in the poll, but honestly if what Rayonklar said about the current state of affairs is accurate I'd play in Tuluk again. Kudos on proper marketing, you hit every one of my sale points.

[Kronibas]

I answered "if underTuluk was returned" in the poll, but honestly if what Rayonklar said about the current state of affairs is accurate I'd play in Tuluk again. Kudos on proper marketing, you hit every one of my sale points.

Ditto, and Nyr being in charge of Nak now just makes that choice a lot easier... because if we don't kill all of his minions, who will?

[Inks]

That Nilhazi idea is genius.

[wizturbo]

see below.

[wizturbo]

That Nilhazi idea is genius.

It makes absolutely no sense at all...

Of all the elementalists of Zalanthas, there is not a less trusted individual than the void mages, besides defilers themselves.

Tuluk hates elementalists, so they'll ally with the ones that are universally agreed to be the worst kind out there?!  

I'm all for Tuluk getting something neat to counter-balance Allanak's gemmed when it comes to cool factor, but there are much better options than this.  I like the technology concept, I also would like to see Tuluk's vastly superior access to resources come into play.  Tuluk should have better wagons, vehicles and mounts.  War-chariots with archers, shit like that.  Mages are powerful, but being able to shoot five arrows for every one Allanak can muster is powerful too.