Here ya go.
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,42567.0.html
I love it.
This will -really- make you think. I like it.
However, is it safe to ask the logic behind it? I'm just curious is all.
I love it, or at least the concept of it. No more "ah if it starts kicking my ass I'll just run when I'm at 50% health".
However, flee seems like a rather difficult skill to "train up" as it were - despite frequently using it, it remains at a low level. Perhaps this should be looked at as well?
Many games have the idea of a parting shot on flee. We've thought about it and decided that we think it fits our world theme and have gone ahead with it.
To Delirium's post, this will help with the skilling up of flee as well. For the record, a request indicating that flee was hard to train up is what brought this to our attention, and so we are changing things to help.
You rock! :)
Quote from: evilcabbage on January 02, 2012, 11:49:38 AM
This will -really- make you think. I like it.
However, is it safe to ask the logic behind it? I'm just curious is all.
I imagine it's because, at present, fleeing is pretty easy, super-spammable, and the skill itself isn't worth much. People will have to think more strategically about when to use flee with this change, as well as not wait until the last possible moment before doing so. In addition, aggressors won't get shafted as much, and players will have an easier time dealing with those pesky fleeing critters.
Edit: Morgenes was faster than me. Must be prowling the forums!
Don't really care one way or another yet. I have a feeling it's going to create even more pc deaths in the early days of play and I don't think we really need things to be harder especially for new players.
The only thing this causes is people to flee even sooner than they already do or risk the parting shot killing your character. It really isn't any deeper than that as far as combat strategy goes. It also further increases the learning curve for combat pcs.
I do think that failing to avoid the parting shot during a flee attempt should count as a failure toward getting better at flee. I also thing that characters with lower agility should have less chance to get the parting shot. Half-giants and dwarves should have a harder time reacting to get off a parting shot vs humans and elves, etc.
This is actually an amazing change. Brings quite a bit to the table in regards to combat strategy, etc. Kudos!
Well! I like the change, then. Except...
If I flee from a half-giant at half my HP I might be in big doo doo.
A question, then, Morgenes: Will your parry/shield use skills come into play to assist you? Or is this your flee versus them, period?
Quote from: evilcabbage on January 02, 2012, 12:18:26 PM
Well! I like the change, then. Except...
If I flee from a half-giant at half my HP I might be in big doo doo.
A question, then, Morgenes: Will your parry/shield use skills come into play to assist you? Or is this your flee versus them, period?
It is my experience that if you're fighting a half-giant, you're already knee-deep in big doo doo. Though, I think those criminals who get caught by soldier NPCs will not try to spam flee all the way to the jail now.
I doubt they'd get the parting shot if they're fleeing a subdue since combat isn't initiated. Otherwise, you could just subdue someone and get a free shot every time they break free before grabbing them again.
Edit...nevermind, I missed one of the uses of "you" in the announcement.
Otherwise, I'm pretty Eh about the change other then if it makes it easier to improve the skill...that of course is a bonus.
A big advantage to high strength fighters unless agility will give a bonus somewhere. Either way its going to make pk easier and play much more tricky for any new players who don't know where the aggressive groups of mobs live. Assuming the flee-er has the chance to use defensive skills, this change makes warriors more valuable for their defensive ability right out of the box. Overall a good change I think.
Staff -- Didn't see this thread b4 I asked in the "Ask the Staff" portion of the GDB...
But my question is..
Learning flee as it is, is already very hard and clearly a number of things you do to "train" it, don't help. I hope that rather than adding in an additional way to "learn" the skill.. the other methods will be fixed accordingly.
Quote from: Bacon on January 02, 2012, 12:07:14 PM
I do think that failing to avoid the parting shot during a flee attempt should count as a failure toward getting better at flee. I also thing that characters with lower agility should have less chance to get the parting shot. Half-giants and dwarves should have a harder time reacting to get off a parting shot vs humans and elves, etc.
That would makes sense, wouldn't it?
Quote from: evilcabbage on January 02, 2012, 12:18:26 PM
A question, then, Morgenes: Will your parry/shield use skills come into play to assist you? Or is this your flee versus them, period?
The flee check is to avoid them getting a swing at you. The swing is measured as it always has been and will be.
Quote from: roughneck on January 02, 2012, 12:45:42 PM
A big advantage to high strength fighters unless agility will give a bonus somewhere. Either way its going to make pk easier and play much more tricky for any new players who don't know where the aggressive groups of mobs live. Assuming the flee-er has the chance to use defensive skills, this change makes warriors more valuable for their defensive ability right out of the box.
See above, I agree that agility should play a part in this kind of a code change. Also, see the next question where I mention that the combat resolution is the same as it has been.
Quote from: Dakota on January 02, 2012, 12:48:50 PM
Learning flee as it is, is already very hard and clearly a number of things you do to "train" it, don't help. I hope that rather than adding in an additional way to "learn" the skill.. the other methods will be fixed accordingly.
The other method was pretty broken IMO, it was not changed, but it rarely was even a consideration (hence people rarely gaining). This code change provides a much more meaningful skill test.
I do agree with the above assertions that this will probably lead to many more early deaths. It will also make skilling up independent (or low clan population) fighters quite a bit more difficult. This is to say nothing of those guilds which do not get flee, but nevertheless face dangerous situations worthy of a quick retreat.
That said, if it's dealt with in a logical way, accounting for the player's abilities and particular circumstances, I could see it. A 'gicker who can run in a blur or flee into the sky, for example, should get mucho modifiers. Elves should be good at giving out and avoiding these flee maneuvers, considering their agility. That sort of thing.
Question: Will a failed flee possibly give them the parting shot chance -and- still keep you in combat so you have to try to do it again? Or does the parting shot chance only happen on a successful escape?
Right now, if you do fail a flee. It will tell you something like, "Panic! You cant get away" and wont let you leave the room.
Will that still happen? And if it does happen, will it incur a parting shot as well?
Say someone fails a flee, he gets hit by a parting shot 'and' fails to flee the actual room.
This might change how some folks spar. I like it. I'm not a fan of people staying in a sparring ring til the last possible second to indicate their scrotum size. Of course, I will no longer spar with a dwarf!
Quote from: Bacon on January 02, 2012, 01:51:12 PM
Question: Will a failed flee possibly give them the parting shot chance -and- still keep you in combat so you have to try to do it again? Or does the parting shot chance only happen on a successful escape?
A parting shot only happens on a successful escape. Getting hit by a parting shot will only stop your movement if you die from it.
Quote from: Dar on January 02, 2012, 01:57:37 PM
Right now, if you do fail a flee. It will tell you something like, "Panic! You cant get away" and wont let you leave the room.
Will that still happen? And if it does happen, will it incur a parting shot as well?
Say someone fails a flee, he gets hit by a parting shot 'and' fails to flee the actual room.
Yes, if for some reason you aren't able to escape, you will still get the 'Panic! You can't get away'. It will NOT incur a parting shot.
Quote from: Morgenes on January 02, 2012, 01:19:27 PM
Quote from: Dakota on January 02, 2012, 12:48:50 PM
Learning flee as it is, is already very hard and clearly a number of things you do to "train" it, don't help. I hope that rather than adding in an additional way to "learn" the skill.. the other methods will be fixed accordingly.
The other method was pretty broken IMO, it was not changed, but it rarely was even a consideration (hence people rarely gaining). This code change provides a much more meaningful skill test.
So understanding this; the "commonly used" method to train flee will stay the same, any alternate methods will not change (keeping to their semi-broken state).. but we'll have the added bonus of failing in a flee test to see if the PC does or does not get hit.. correct?
And what about fleeing in specific directions?
Quote from: Dakota on January 02, 2012, 02:25:12 PM
So understanding this; the "commonly used" method to train flee will stay the same, any alternate methods will not change (keeping to their semi-broken state).. but we'll have the added bonus of failing in a flee test to see if the PC does or does not get hit.. correct?
I'm not going to discuss specific instances of how you can train skills beyond what the docs say, which is to fail at them. Take that for what you will.
Quote from: Dakota on January 02, 2012, 02:25:12 PM
And what about fleeing in specific directions?
Fleeing in specific directions has not changed.
Will the parting shot contribute to the combat lag of the combatant who made it?
Will we be able to use it on mobs which run away when they reach a certain amount of damage? Or is it only a player thing.
Weapons might possibly have different chances. So it would be difficult to do parting shots with daggers and blunts do their short lengths and heavy, unwieldy shapes. While spears and pikes will be more effective at parting shots due to their reach, etc.
Quote from: Yam on January 02, 2012, 02:28:05 PM
Will the parting shot contribute to the combat lag of the combatant who made it?
It will be a swing, so there will be the same lag as if you had made a swing and someone died.
Quote from: Zoan on January 02, 2012, 02:32:07 PM
Will we be able to use it on mobs which run away when they reach a certain amount of damage? Or is it only a player thing.
This affects PC and NPC, both ways.
I think it's sort of a sly way to kill off more pcs.
It is not as if it is needed. The real problem with flee is that it always works even before journeyman so probably not going to skillup. I don't think mine has failed in a year, except in breaking subdues. Just make it not succeed so much and give a slightly increased chance to skillup? Reasonable?
Welllllll.......let's make it way more complicated, AND pcs aren't getting killed, let's make them get killed instead! If you are weak and accidentally run into something big, you dead.
All in all it doesn't bother me that much other than the hardship you are placing on older warrior characters who have to spar with newer characters.(especially dwarves). You know what's a real problem? ---> -Sparring weapons can hit for so much damn damage!- I just can't help but laugh at the crazy way a simple problem is "fixed" with such game changing code.
There are cases right now where having a high flee skill is a very useful thing, such as fleeing in specific directions.
This was probably a case of 'oh hey, while we're fixing flee skillup, would it be a good time to go ahead and implement this idea'?
So I have played table top before, D-n-D, the miniatures. In that, when you break from combat to flee, you basically are turning your back on your opponent to haul ass. This allows a parting opportunity to the one remaining, signifying a focus of aggression and the penalty for the other combatant for dividing their attention towards finding a path from the engagement with out tripping over their own feet, a stone, a hidden tregil.
It's brutal, but it makes sense, however the extra attack is not cushioned with a bonus to hit on the fleeing person only an extra attack. Which of coarse can seem like a lot.
Will there be a bonus to strike them in addition to the extra attack?
And if I get this right, every one fighting the fleeing mod/ pc gets an extra attack chance, yes?
There were several ways we could have 'fixed' the code. What was probably our 2nd choice was to give the flee-er a skill check to even be able to flee. We figured this would cause more pc deaths, because instead of just getting one hit (per attacker), you're stuck in combat still, with a lag and less stamina.
For those of you concerned with training newbies. Realize part of the responsibility is yours to watch them. You can DISENGAGE if you feel they are getting too beat up but you don't want to lose face by fleeing yourself.
Quote from: Potaje on January 02, 2012, 03:02:19 PM
It's brutal, but it makes sense, however the extra attack is not cushioned with a bonus to hit on the fleeing person only an extra attack. Which of coarse can seem like a lot.
Will there be a bonus to strike them in addition to the extra attack?
No, there will be no bonus/penalty to this extra attack.
In case it was missed
And if I get this right, every one fighting the fleeing mod/ pc gets an extra attack chance, yes?
Quote from: Morgenes on January 02, 2012, 03:03:53 PM
There were several ways we could have 'fixed' the code. What was probably our 2nd choice was to give the flee-er a skill check to even be able to flee. We figured this would cause more pc deaths, because instead of just getting one hit (per attacker), you're stuck in combat still, with a lag and less stamina.
For those of you concerned with training newbies. Realize part of the responsibility is yours to watch them. You can DISENGAGE if you feel they are getting too beat up but you don't want to lose face by fleeing yourself.
I see it was answered thank you.
Quote from: Bacon on January 02, 2012, 12:07:14 PM
Don't really care one way or another yet. I have a feeling it's going to create even more pc deaths in the early days of play and I don't think we really need things to be harder especially for new players.
The only thing this causes is people to flee even sooner than they already do or risk the parting shot killing your character. It really isn't any deeper than that as far as combat strategy goes. It also further increases the learning curve for combat pcs.
I do think that failing to avoid the parting shot during a flee attempt should count as a failure toward getting better at flee. I also thing that characters with lower agility should have less chance to get the parting shot. Half-giants and dwarves should have a harder time reacting to get off a parting shot vs humans and elves, etc.
I completely agree.
I don't like this adjustment at all. Being quick may safe your life. A parting shot may just end it right there, on the spot. And some places in Arm you REALLY don't need a parting shot like that.
Quote from: Titania on January 02, 2012, 02:48:36 PM
I think it's sort of a sly way to kill off more pcs.
It is not as if it is needed. The real problem with flee is that it always works even before journeyman so probably not going to skillup. I don't think mine has failed in a year, except in breaking subdues. Just make it not succeed so much and give a slightly increased chance to skillup? Reasonable?
Welllllll.......let's make it way more complicated, AND pcs aren't getting killed, let's make them get killed instead! If you are weak and accidentally run into something big, you dead.
All in all it doesn't bother me that much other than the hardship you are placing on older warrior characters who have to spar with newer characters.(especially dwarves). You know what's a real problem? ---> -Sparring weapons can hit for so much damn damage!- I just can't help but laugh at the crazy way a simple problem is "fixed" with such game changing code.
I know my character who had apprentice flee barely ever failed to flee in the direction they wanted to go, never failed to actually flee, could break half-giant subdues with ease, etc. I do think it's too easy to get away in the wilderness right now. But yeah, I think it was just too easy to succeed in the flee skill before.
Quote from: Morgenes on January 02, 2012, 02:44:39 PM
Quote from: Yam on January 02, 2012, 02:28:05 PM
Will the parting shot contribute to the combat lag of the combatant who made it?
It will be a swing, so there will be the same lag as if you had made a swing and someone died.
Sounds like it's going to make it easier for people to get away if they don't die to the last swing then.
so basically it appears that flee is unchanged save for the risk it carries when you actually use flee in combat goes up.. so learning it will be just as difficult but far more risky.
I do like the idea behind the change though.. I just loathe the fact its such a pain in the butt skill to move if you don't run around and try to 'play code' rather than actually 'play the game'. Wishing it was easier to learn as a whole is all. But.. it is a neat (and logical) change.
Quote from: Morgenes on January 02, 2012, 03:03:53 PM
For those of you concerned with training newbies. Realize part of the responsibility is yours to watch them. You can DISENGAGE if you feel they are getting too beat up but you don't want to lose face by fleeing yourself.
That has nothing to do with it. Sometimes you can be a little LAGGY and just hit so hard that unless you have disengage or flee queued up they could die quicker than I can react. Makes it hard to emote ;). Yeah yeah 'mercy on' but when you can hit for 3/4 of the average humans life with a SPARRING weapon in your off hand, then whatever.
Quote from: Dakota on January 02, 2012, 03:11:19 PM
so basically it appears that flee is unchanged save for the risk it carries when you actually use flee in combat goes up.. so learning it will be just as difficult but far more risky.
I do like the idea behind the change though.. I just loathe the fact its such a pain in the butt skill to move if you don't run around and try to 'play code' rather than actually 'play the game'. Wishing it was easier to learn as a whole is all. But.. it is a neat (and logical) change.
+1
Quote from: Dakota on January 02, 2012, 03:11:19 PM
I do like the idea behind the change though.. I just loathe the fact its such a pain in the butt skill to move if you don't run around and try to 'play code' rather than actually 'play the game'. Wishing it was easier to learn as a whole is all. But.. it is a neat (and logical) change.
I don't get this part, it seems that if your pc has taken the time to train, which skilling up represents the ability, to keep a calm and collected head to figure how to get out of a situation which is not always natural for its almost more natural to panic, then where is realistic idea of playing the game.
I don't think that sitting around comfortable in a bar all the time, nor being someone that was so tough and fighting things like tregils, never having to run, then one day coming upon a tembo and freaking out because they never had to think in terms of not panicking in the face of such ferocity, is much of a negative of game play/ rp vs code. And somewhat enhances it in my mind.
Ya'll haven't read the thread clearly enough.
Ya'll being everyone who doesn't like the change.
Like... Just flee one hit earlier than normal.
Hmm... I'm not too big on this. I think it's the god-given right of every coward to put up a shitty fight, and forcing cowards to fight just makes fighting shitty.
As much as we like to think that you can lash out at a person trying to flee... you can't really do it in real life unless you're outright faster than they are. Generally, you're going to be two or three steps away from them, even in melee combat, and that's a lot of ground to cover if they suddenly turn and run. Essentially, you can only really fight a person if they want to fight, or you simply outclass them enough to force it.
I'd rather suggest giving people more reasons to stand and fight rather than make running harder. Establish a better way to dismount riders (bash?) and make mounting while fighting more difficult. Hell, change the encumbrance rules so that fighting with a pack full of junk is a bad thing, forcing folks to drop their packs whenever they want to fight and giving pursuers an advantage against those who don't want to fight.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 02, 2012, 03:21:07 PM
Ya'll haven't read the thread clearly enough.
Ya'll being everyone who doesn't like the change.
Like... Just flee one hit earlier than normal.
Against things just a little bit tougher than you are, that's fine. Against things like carru, bahamet, and mekillots? Not so much.
Gotta wonder, though, if a reeling hit will stop a flee.
If you're worried about the specific number of hits you get from things that can likely one-shot you. Then you're playing the game very dangerously.
It doesn't force you to fight if you're a coward. It makes you take an extra hit if you fail a skill check. That's all.
Can't wait to see people running "scared" from the weakest outdoor npcs.
The rugged ruggedly beared man says looking over his shoulder "Gah shouldn't of tried to taken on all them greth's, then had to run from all eight over and over!".
Hey Morgenes.
This is a great change. However I have a question in my mind. What happens to those classes which don't have the skill flee?? Is there any plans to add the skill with some cap into some classes??
Let's say, in Rinth, everyone's engaged in lots of fights as their backgrounds state. So almost all of the sneaky types should have improved that skill, if it becomes that crucial to survive.
And I have another question. Will this change work as comparing the flee skills of both the fleeing PC and the attacking PC? I think that I'm kinda asking the mechanics of the game. However, I think most people is confused about how the flee skill will work. To give an example of what I meant:
Let's say I have the flee skill at novice and the attacker doesn't have the skill. Will I be able to flee without getting the one extra hit?
I love the change. Anything that makes combat more visceral is okay by me, even sparring.
Quote from: Zoan on January 02, 2012, 04:12:13 PM
I love the change. Anything that makes combat more visceral is okay by me, even sparring.
You find it's not visceral enough atm??
I haven't really seen anything more visceral than having nicking matches with skeet that lasts 10 minutes, but I tend to play very cautiously (as in, my PCs don't die inside a week like apparently most people's :P).
Edit: Somehow missed page 2.
Yeah, I play very cautiously as well. That doesn't mean the fighting skill difficulty have to get increased >:|
Quote from: Bacon on January 02, 2012, 04:27:20 PM
Quote from: Zoan on January 02, 2012, 02:32:07 PM
Will we be able to use it on mobs which run away when they reach a certain amount of damage? Or is it only a player thing.
Quote from: Yam on January 02, 2012, 02:28:05 PM
Will the parting shot contribute to the combat lag of the combatant who made it?
I second both of these questions and add: If not, I think both of these should be the case.
To my question, Morg already answered it's for NPC and PC alike.
Quote from: Morgenes on January 02, 2012, 02:44:39 PM
Quote from: Yam on January 02, 2012, 02:28:05 PM
Will the parting shot contribute to the combat lag of the combatant who made it?
It will be a swing, so there will be the same lag as if you had made a swing and someone died.
In my experience, combat lag from normal melee attacks is negligible to nonexistent, so this change seems like a triple penalty.
Escaping an NPC in combat used to look something like this: Flee, run a couple rooms with the NPC in hot pursuit, get attacked again by the pursuing NPC. Repeat until you manage to get two rooms away.
If NPCs still have catlike reflexes when it comes to chasing after you, then you're now likely to get hit as you flee, as you get attacked a second time, and as you flee a second time, before you have a real chance to get away.
Will these changes incorporate enough of a lag that players have a reasonable chance to escape aggressive NPCs with a single successful flee?
Something just occured to me. I think npcs need more movement delay in addition to this. I've had, many times npcs enter the room and hit me before I can react, I flee (now they will get a chance to hit me again) then they enter the room before I can move any farther away and attack again (now when I try to flee the second time they get another bonus attack on me). This is wholly effed up if npcs don't get a little more movement delay.
Edit:
QuoteIf NPCs still have catlike reflexes when it comes to chasing after you, then you're now likely to get hit as you flee, as you get attacked a second time, and as you flee a second time, before you have a real chance to get away.
Yeah, exactly what I was just thinking.
Quote from: Bacon on January 02, 2012, 04:39:15 PM
Something just occured to me. I think npcs need more movement delay in addition to this. I've had, many times npcs enter the room and hit me before I can react, I flee (now they will get a chance to hit me again) then they enter the room before I can move any farther away and attack again (now when I try to flee the second time they get another bonus attack on me). This is wholly effed up if npcs don't get a little more movement delay.
Yep. Agree with Bacon again.
Bacon is very agreeable.
Quote from: Bacon on January 02, 2012, 04:39:15 PM
Something just occured to me. I think npcs need more movement delay in addition to this. I've had, many times npcs enter the room and hit me before I can react, I flee (now they will get a chance to hit me again) then they enter the room before I can move any farther away and attack again (now when I try to flee the second time they get another bonus attack on me). This is wholly effed up if npcs don't get a little more movement delay.
I kind of agree with this sentiment.
But then I see two sides to it.
Side 1: I get raptor'd/beetle'd enough as it is!
Side 2: This change makes being a "guide" through the wastes a worthy venture.
QuoteSide 2: This change makes being a "guide" through the wastes a worthy venture.
No matter how good of a guide you are, there isn't anything to save you from the aggro npc in the room diagonal from you that you can't see until you move into an adjacent room.
Quote from: Potaje on January 02, 2012, 03:20:26 PM
Quote from: Dakota on January 02, 2012, 03:11:19 PM
I do like the idea behind the change though.. I just loathe the fact its such a pain in the butt skill to move if you don't run around and try to 'play code' rather than actually 'play the game'. Wishing it was easier to learn as a whole is all. But.. it is a neat (and logical) change.
I don't get this part, it seems that if your pc has taken the time to train, which skilling up represents the ability, to keep a calm and collected head to figure how to get out of a situation which is not always natural for its almost more natural to panic, then where is realistic idea of playing the game.
I don't think that sitting around comfortable in a bar all the time, nor being someone that was so tough and fighting things like tregils, never having to run, then one day coming upon a tembo and freaking out because they never had to think in terms of not panicking in the face of such ferocity, is much of a negative of game play/ rp vs code. And somewhat enhances it in my mind.
Taking the time to train flee (for most PC's IMO), means you get in a situation thats in over your head or feels that way and you try to get away and safe.. That is playing the game for me.. Playing code for me means you run about spam-fleeing when you fight stuff to hope for a fail bc you want to up your skill.. That's what I was referring too.
Either way flee is very -very- hard to learn. Like the change.. but I just hope learning it will also get adjusted in ways beyond this additional check for the hit.
And I absolutely agree w. the delay on NPCs..
I have to agree as well that NPC move delay should be given a hard look at. There are many NPCs that can get that surprise attack in, which is fine, but all of them are VERY fast as well and almost all of them track.
And though I am happy this will make flee easier to raise...It is not very realistic and neither are any of the games that already have something like this....just because other games do it does not make it right.
Though I think escape has been too easy...I've not really been against it being that way because I have been on both sides, so they even out.
But the flee-er should have the advantage, the jump. Not the other way around. The idea that when I decide to flee a fight gets telegraphed in some way giving the attacker time to anticipate not only when, but where I am about to go and do it in time to ready an attack is...to be honest, SILLY.
NOW, that being said,
I know it can be argued that if your flee skill is low you run like a chicken with its head cut off, so you stumble or run the wrong direction or whatever, giving the attacker that extra attack...Fine...BUT, if that is the case I REALLY REALLY think you, Morg, should add in an advantage to having a high flee skill.
Like, past a certain point in addition to being able to avoid those attacks you gain speed to your run for a couple rooms, Or much lower stam cost to flee AND to travel for a couple rooms...call it adrenalin rush or just the ability to plan your route better then the ones behind you...something.
Which, would BTW, cover the problem of NPC move delay and likely be easier to add then changing NPC move delays.
I could see this killing players during sparring. When it's already too easy to die during sparring.
Maybe there should be a nosave command to hold back, and not attempt an attack on someone who is fleeing, picking something up, or otherwise exposing themselves to an extra attack. Useful for sparring applications in the sense that it will reduce the chance of accidentally killing someone with far less skill than you, but would then skip any skill gain that might have taken place otherwise.
Anyway, I think this is a good change, but I don't think it can stand alone. Other people have mentioned what else could be looked at, such as NPC delays.
Quote from: Morgenes on January 02, 2012, 03:03:53 PM
For those of you concerned with training newbies. Realize part of the responsibility is yours to watch them. You can DISENGAGE if you feel they are getting too beat up but you don't want to lose face by fleeing yourself.
The problem is when your badass partner reels/bashes you down to 15 health while he's lagging out.
If the thing you're fleeing from is bashed (from bash, kick reverse, charge, trample, bash fail, etc. etc.) when you flee, I think it should eliminate the possibility of it getting the parting shot. The same should apply if it is currently reeling when you flee.
More broadly, you could argue that if it is currently suffering from any kind of combat delay (from initial attack, backstab, sap, kick, disarm, throw, etc.), it should not get the chance for a parting shot when you flee.
I would say this is important, especially for assassins, because if they get a guaranteed (or high-probability) melee attack post-backstab or sap, it basically increases the damage of that attack and makes it perhaps more dangerous than originally intended. (Although...as someone who plays assassins frequently, I'd be pretty happy while playing an assassin if I got the parting shot while still backstab-delayed.)
Quote from: Synthesis on January 02, 2012, 05:39:37 PM
If the thing you're fleeing from is bashed (from bash, kick reverse, charge, trample, bash fail, etc. etc.) when you flee, I think it should eliminate the possibility of it getting the parting shot. The same should apply if it is currently reeling when you flee.
More broadly, you could argue that if it is currently suffering from any kind of combat delay (from initial attack, backstab, sap, kick, disarm, throw, etc.), it should not get the chance for a parting shot when you flee.
I would say this is important, especially for assassins, because if they get a guaranteed (or high-probability) melee attack post-backstab or sap, it basically increases the damage of that attack and makes it perhaps more dangerous than originally intended. (Although...as someone who plays assassins frequently, I'd be pretty happy while playing an assassin if I got the parting shot while still backstab-delayed.)
Another good point. I agree.
Keep in mind guys. If I recall correctly. The delay time of a swing that kills someone is huuge. Hence why it pays off to have mercy on while fighting 4-5 gortoks and then just change opponents by a command instead of waiting for you to auto switch when a tok dies. You also get a delay timer if you attack someone.
For example, if you are running away from a critter, he follows you at the same or greater speed then you. But ... if you let him attack you and then flee. He will not follow you because he is still under the initiated attack delay. Which makes it 'very' easy to move away a few rooms and not be followed (unless the critter tracks). Though this way you will get attacked 'and' suffer a parting blow, but at least you'll be guaranteed that the attacker will not follow you when you flee.
If a critter tracks, then whenever it enters a room it initiates hunt instead of insta attacking. So no it will not enter a room/insta attack, like it sometimes happens when it enters a room to attack you for the very first time. So it 'does' give you time to keep moving away, since it will wait till tracking is finished even if you're in the same damn room already.
QuoteBut ... if you let him attack you and then flee. He will not follow you because he is still under the initiated attack delay.
This is not always true. That's the problem. Many many many times I've had them immediately enter the next room before my movement delay wears off and attack again.
Quote from: Dar on January 02, 2012, 05:48:30 PM
Keep in mind guys. If I recall correctly. The delay time of a swing that kills someone is huuge. Hence why it pays off to have mercy on while fighting 4-5 gortoks and then just change opponents by a command instead of waiting for you to auto switch when a tok dies. You also get a delay timer if you attack someone.
For example, if you are running away from a critter, he follows you at the same or greater speed then you. But ... if you let him attack you and then flee. He will not follow you because he is still under the initiated attack delay. Which makes it 'very' easy to move away a few rooms and not be followed (unless the critter tracks). Though this way you will get attacked 'and' suffer a parting blow, but at least you'll be guaranteed that the attacker will not follow you when you flee.
If a critter tracks, then whenever it enters a room it initiates hunt instead of insta attacking. So no it will not enter a room/insta attack, like it sometimes happens when it enters a room to attack you for the very first time. So it 'does' give you time to keep moving away, since it will wait till tracking is finished even if you're in the same damn room already.
There is no delay for landing a killing blow, unless you have to use the 'kill' command to strike it.
"Change opponent" does have a delay associated with it, so if we're strictly talking about not suffering from delays, it would be better for you to just keep combat going without using change opponent in that scenario.
I'm against the change.
It could make the current, already deadly plots possibly a bit too deadly to bother pursuing.
I could also make accidental dujat/bahamet/mek encounters unsurvivable. When the only saving grace was a fool proof flee command.
Quote from: Synthesis on January 02, 2012, 05:39:37 PM
If the thing you're fleeing from is bashed (from bash, kick reverse, charge, trample, bash fail, etc. etc.) when you flee, I think it should eliminate the possibility of it getting the parting shot. The same should apply if it is currently reeling when you flee.
More broadly, you could argue that if it is currently suffering from any kind of combat delay (from initial attack, backstab, sap, kick, disarm, throw, etc.), it should not get the chance for a parting shot when you flee.
I would say this is important, especially for assassins, because if they get a guaranteed (or high-probability) melee attack post-backstab or sap, it basically increases the damage of that attack and makes it perhaps more dangerous than originally intended. (Although...as someone who plays assassins frequently, I'd be pretty happy while playing an assassin if I got the parting shot while still backstab-delayed.)
Two other things:
1) Someone needs to look at the fact that sometimes NPCs that are following other NPCs do not suffer from movement delays before they attack, so if 3 kryl run into a room with you, sometimes 2 of them can attack immediately.
2) You really need to fix the first-round double-attack bug that NPCs predominantly benefit from, because adding a parting shot attack gives them yet another extra attack.
An armored bahamet walks in.
You think: "Dam! I gotta run."
w
An armored bahamet tries to stomp on you but misses.
Not while you're fighting.
An armored bahamet stomps on you doing horrendous damage.
You reel.
flee
An armored bahamet tries to stomp on you but misses.
You fled.
An armored bahamet stomps on you doing horrendous damage.
#beep#
Mantis Head.
Shouldn't have been going after Mets unless you were properly prepared.
Quote from: Naruto on January 02, 2012, 06:09:48 PM
An armored bahamet walks in.
You think: "Dam! I gotta run."
w
An armored bahamet tries to stomp on you but misses.
Not while you're fighting.
An armored bahamet stomps on you doing horrendous damage.
You reel.
flee
An armored bahamet tries to stomp on you but misses.
You fled.
An armored bahamet stomps on you doing horrendous damage.
#beep#
Mantis Head.
Kind of. Except I've never seen a bahamet miss. Only blocked by a skilled shield user.
Quote from: evilcabbage on January 02, 2012, 06:13:48 PM
Shouldn't have been going after Mets unless you were properly prepared.
Accidental bahamets are pretty much unavoidable if you play long enough in a certain area.
Anyways, from what I gather, they get a parting shot but you still get a chance to defend against it. Or maybe it negates your parry/shield use and it's either "they swing" or "they don't." Which is fine by me!
I think a bunch of subguilds just got better.
No, many main guilds just got worse.
Easy solution: mercy on = no lashing out when people flee.
Enjoy your sparring, clan-peeps.
Quote from: Zoan on January 02, 2012, 07:20:28 PM
Easy solution: mercy on = no lashing out when people flee.
Enjoy your sparring, clan-peeps.
Also a good idea. I use mercy when sparring at all times anyway.
Ok, a bunch of subguilds just got more valuable.
Of course then you just go right back to not being able to train the skill up....which I think staff mentioned is at least part of the reason for the change anyway.
I see them as keeping the same value, Subguild skills do not go all that high.
No, give some other bonus to higher flee skill and I might agree to the value, But if all I am gaining is 30% less chance of them getting to swing at me and I have to pick a sub that is otherwise against my PC concept, which, the ones getting flee often are....well, I'll take my chances with a more fitting sub and flee sooner.
Bash + New Flee = :'(
To the staff,: Any plans to make the flee skill more available to more combat classes. Like classes that already have poor defence?
Please give more classes the flee skill.
Quote from: Armaddict on January 02, 2012, 08:15:57 PM
Please give more classes the flee skill.
So it will fair for everyone? Like have a parting blow skill?
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 02, 2012, 08:29:40 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on January 02, 2012, 07:39:05 PM
Bash + New Flee = :'(
How so?
Being bashed increases the likelihood that you'll be below the "dead in one more round" limit at the time you manage to flee. And if you're being attacked by several PCs, you almost certainly will be below the "dead in several more rounds' worth of attacks" limit.
Oh, well that's obvious.
If fighting multiple opponents does your flee check against them all individually, or just once for them all? I'm assuming it's individually heh.
Quote from: Barsook on January 02, 2012, 08:17:57 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on January 02, 2012, 08:15:57 PM
Please give more classes the flee skill.
So it will fair for everyone? Like have a parting blow skill?
Because before it made more sense, since it was viewed more as an organized retreat and general combat awareness situation. However, with a change that makes it a potentially character ending ordeal to have to run away, it also changes the context of that skill in and of itself to one where people in even remotely combat-involved classes should have -some- degree of learning in the matter. Unless these classes are viewed as retarded when it comes to getting away from all those people who fight better than them and just repeatedly get smashed in the back of the head every time someone tries to mug them. (Which is sarcasm. I'm sorry, but in Zalanthas, people probably just aren't that stupid if they've survived to adulthood).
Morg, I didn't see an answer to this question yet and I was super curious. Can you clarify please?
Question: If you go to flee, and the parting shot you get hit with reel locks, but does not kill you ... what happens?
Do you stay in the room till the reel lock wears off THEN flee?
Do you flee then stay reel locked in the next room?
Do you not get to flee?
Do you turn into a one-eyed one-horned flying purple people eater?
Does the game crash?
Ugh...died because of bashes from critters already. I can see myself putting a fist through my screen when I die because of bash and the flee attack together. Perhaps the bash delay that you're knocked down should be cut down some with this addition? I think some of them are far too long anyway even without it.
Yeeesh. Maybe my character is just one of the badasses benefiting from this change and I'm biased.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 02, 2012, 09:34:30 PM
Yeeesh. Maybe my character is just one of the badasses benefiting from this change and I'm biased.
Mine is too actually. For the record, I like what this is going to do to pvp content.
NPC mash fests are another concern....
Quote from: Jingo on January 02, 2012, 09:39:11 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 02, 2012, 09:34:30 PM
Yeeesh. Maybe my character is just one of the badasses benefiting from this change and I'm biased.
Mine is too actually. For the record, I like what this is going to do to pvp content.
NPC mash fests are another concern....
Yeah, you had better make damn sure your tanks know who they are, and have their rescue skill buff. Condolences in advance for the Byn Runners who get aggroed in the RPT, though.
Quote from: Synthesis on January 02, 2012, 09:48:00 PM
Quote from: Jingo on January 02, 2012, 09:39:11 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 02, 2012, 09:34:30 PM
Yeeesh. Maybe my character is just one of the badasses benefiting from this change and I'm biased.
Mine is too actually. For the record, I like what this is going to do to pvp content.
NPC mash fests are another concern....
Yeah, you had better make damn sure your tanks know who they are, and have their rescue skill buff. Condolences in advance for the Byn Runners who get aggroed in the RPT, though.
Now I feel dirty.
Too much swtor I guess.
nerf NPC bash
that shit lasts like thirty seconds
- It only really concerns me with very big critters where 1 hit is survivable and 2 hits aren't. If I get jumped, and sometimes despite my best efforts that still happens, they are currently somewhat survivable. This may, depending on how deeply it was implemented, change that.
- I will hold you to the one hit. So I expect that dual wield folks will not get a full round (both weapons) but only one hit. Point for twohanders.
- A lot of wonkiness would be avoided by making it so that anyone in wait_state (what some folks call game-side lag) doesn't get that hit on the fleeing person. So, backstab, kill, bash, kick, etc. would give an opportunity to get away. This would -add- to the tactics in my opinion. My decent warrior, taking a surprise big hit to the head, is going to jump on the opportunity to get out when that thug just missed his kick afterwards.
- I agree that anyone bashed (position < standing) or reeled shouldn't get to make a free hit.
- Skilled fleers (I've never had one so guessing) get a reduced lag time from the skill, yes? Journeyman should make it so that there is essentially no lag, IMHO.
- Really skilled fleers (advanced, master?) should apply a very small wait_state (say .25-.5 seconds) to whatever it was that was attacking them. Yes, lag the attackers. The fleer surprised them, because hey, they are just that good.
Quote from: Twilight on January 02, 2012, 11:33:42 PM
- I will hold you to the one hit. So I expect that dual wield folks will not get a full round (both weapons) but only one hit. Point for twohanders.
Pretty sure they get two
What is up with all this bash + flee stuff? If you're bashed down, you cannot flee anyway.
The hell people?
The wastelands have been entirely too safe for waaaay too long!
"I don't wanna get carru'd! D:"
Fuck, hire a guide! Bring friends! Hire the Byn! Hell, all this change really does is validate the existence of the "guard" and "rescue" skills and give warriors and rangers something else to do aside from running around and killing shit
We've had more than a few threads about combat not being dangerous enough, or the wastelands being too safe-- yet when an idea comes along that'll keep people from spam-fleeing their way from Red Storm to Tuluk in thirty minutes people start resisting. :/
Blah.
(Disclaimer: This doesn't go to anyone that actually suggested improvements to the idea)
All this change does is make a bad situation even worse. Care to take your chances when being assaulted by five gith in an RPT?
It probably won't even be noticeable at more or less equal levels of skill, which is odd. All I can see is more downside for those characters that already have nothing but downside when it comes to survivability.
I really need to see the specifics of how this is implemented before I can really say anything good about it.
Sure makes you think twice about doing silly things your character probably shouldn't be doing in the first place (Traveling along in the wilderness, trying to be a hardass when being mugged/raided, etc., etc., etc) doesn't it?
Not really. It won't change my characters at all. They either would be that way or not. The code doesn't decide my character's personality. It has the potential to be very oocly frustrating, especially for newer players, that is all. Some players are strictly offpeak. Some of us find ourselves stuck in periods where the only time we can play is offpeak. Things shouldn't be made so difficult that only peak players get to have any action. New players who like to see action, shouldn't have to play for several years before they do everything just right and have a little luck to keep a character alive for a while. We forget how difficult this game is for new people and need to remember that if we want to playerbase to continue to grow. It is really only a minority of veterans that post threads about it not being hard enough. That doesn't mean most of the playerbase agrees.
Quote from: Bacon on January 03, 2012, 01:14:54 AM
Not really. It won't change my characters at all. They either would be that way or not. The code doesn't decide my character's personality. It has the potential to be very oocly frustrating, especially for newer players, that is all. Some players are strictly offpeak. Some of us find ourselves stuck in periods where the only time we can play is offpeak. Things shouldn't be made so difficult that only peak players get to have any action. New players who like to see action, shouldn't have to play for several years before they do everything just right and have a little luck to keep a character alive for a while. We forget how difficult this game is for new people and need to remember that if we want to playerbase to continue to grow. It is really only a minority of veterans that post threads about it not being hard enough. That doesn't mean most of the playerbase agrees.
Avoiding territories filled with dangerous beasts in the wastes isn't all that hard, and finding skilled people to travel with off-peak isn't all that hard either (Unless you're in that -reaaaalllly off-peak check-it-out-three-players-on off-peak).
This change wouldn't really limit anyone's "action", unless that action involves running full-tilt into dangerous areas of the gameworld alone.... In which case, they'd do it alone anyhow since they're so off-peak-- only change is that those dangerous areas of the gameworld would be as dangerous as they
should be.
::Edited to add:: And as far as new players? I'd rather they learn to treat dangerous stuff as it should be early on... Doesn't really steepen the learning curve
all that much-- all the change will do is keep them from learning how to spam-flee through areas that only the suicidal would enter alone.
I disagree. Dangerous stuff is as dangerous as it should be already. It doesn't need to be more dangerous. I have trouble finding ohter characters even just outside of peak times. I can't imagine how bad it is for way offpeak people. The solo game is part of the game it should not be disregarded just because it's not your thing.
Quote from: Bacon on January 03, 2012, 01:56:33 AM
I disagree. Dangerous stuff is as dangerous as it should be already. It doesn't need to be more dangerous.
A lone newbie trekking through gith lands relatively unscathed dangerous does not make.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on January 03, 2012, 01:59:25 AM
Quote from: Bacon on January 03, 2012, 01:56:33 AM
I disagree. Dangerous stuff is as dangerous as it should be already. It doesn't need to be more dangerous.
A lone newbie trekking through gith lands relatively unscathed dangerous does not make.
Tell that to the piles of dead newbie pcs I'm always finding not far from civilized areas.
Quote from: Bacon on January 03, 2012, 02:00:42 AM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on January 03, 2012, 01:59:25 AM
Quote from: Bacon on January 03, 2012, 01:56:33 AM
I disagree. Dangerous stuff is as dangerous as it should be already. It doesn't need to be more dangerous.
A lone newbie trekking through gith lands relatively unscathed dangerous does not make.
Tell that to the piles of dead newbie pcs I'm always finding not far from civilized areas.
I'd bet money that most of those were suicides or shoddy internet connections-- done it plenty of times myself.
Even landed some cool staff animations once... Was pretty cool.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on January 03, 2012, 01:47:43 AM
Quote from: Bacon on January 03, 2012, 01:14:54 AM
Not really. It won't change my characters at all. They either would be that way or not. The code doesn't decide my character's personality. It has the potential to be very oocly frustrating, especially for newer players, that is all. Some players are strictly offpeak. Some of us find ourselves stuck in periods where the only time we can play is offpeak. Things shouldn't be made so difficult that only peak players get to have any action. New players who like to see action, shouldn't have to play for several years before they do everything just right and have a little luck to keep a character alive for a while. We forget how difficult this game is for new people and need to remember that if we want to playerbase to continue to grow. It is really only a minority of veterans that post threads about it not being hard enough. That doesn't mean most of the playerbase agrees.
Avoiding territories filled with dangerous beasts in the wastes isn't all that hard, and finding skilled people to travel with off-peak isn't all that hard either (Unless you're in that -reaaaalllly off-peak check-it-out-three-players-on off-peak).
This change wouldn't really limit anyone's "action", unless that action involves running full-tilt into dangerous areas of the gameworld alone.... In which case, they'd do it alone anyhow since they're so off-peak-- only change is that those dangerous areas of the gameworld would be as dangerous as they should be.
::Edited to add:: And as far as new players? I'd rather they learn to treat dangerous stuff as it should be early on... Doesn't really steepen the learning curve all that much-- all the change will do is keep them from learning how to spam-flee through areas that only the suicidal would enter alone.
Traveling alone is always dangerous. I'm worried about the forty day veteran with an escort, doing what they always did till now. Low defense and no flee skill will be a death sentence if three or more dangerous mobs attack you. Or if just one ubermob attacks you.
...the flee skill needs this. It needs to be there. I'm betting that after a period of time doing what most people do, and sparring, the difference will be much smaller aside from in circumstances where you're already expecting danger. People will probably just get used to breaking combat earlier, which kind of makes sense.
Again, the main qualm I have with this is that it changes the dynamic of the flee skill altogether, and pretty much everyone should have the ability to improve at it to some degree. It's not a 'choose the right subguild' issue, because you're essentially saying 'Choose the right subguild to be able to run away', which is outright foolish. Spread out the flee skill, set its caps, but insure everyone can get to -some- level of security, small level that it may be.
I agree with Armaddict. Good change but I hope flee becomes a low cap, yet had by all skill. Like shield use, two-handed, and dual wield.
Quote from: Armaddict on January 03, 2012, 03:00:12 AM
People will probably just get used to breaking combat earlier, which kind of makes sense.
More likely is they will just train the fuck out of flee to avoid worrying about it and go back to playing exactly as before. In addition, certain subguilds will likely become very popular.
This worries me some. I'm a new player and don't understand how combat works all that well. It moves too fast for me to read and I get lost.
Now I have to worry about these players or animals getting another attack at me - this really worries me if I'm playing some sort of character who doesn't have this "flee" skill.
Typically, if your guild doesn't have the flee skill, your guild's strength isn't in toe-to-toe fighting and tactical retreating. Exploiting those strengths that your PC does have would still be possible.
The guilds who don't have the flee skill are typically the guilds that need it the most ... because they're the ones being hunted down at every turn :P
QuoteTypically, if your guild doesn't have the flee skill, your guild's strength isn't in toe-to-toe fighting and tactical retreating. Exploiting those strengths that your PC does have would still be possible.
With this change, this is no longer about a 'tactical retreat'. That's what it was before. Now it's about being able to get away from close quarters without getting hit, which -typically- speaking, is even more suited to those classes without it now than the ones that actually have it (in which case it would be another skill of theirs that prevents them from being hit.)
Essentially, there are very few in the entire known who would be in a position of being 'unable to learn' how to not get hit while breaking out of combat.
Quote from: Cutthroat on January 03, 2012, 08:02:03 AM
Typically, if your guild doesn't have the flee skill, your guild's strength isn't in toe-to-toe fighting and tactical retreating. Exploiting those strengths that your PC does have would still be possible.
Are you talking to me? I guess you are. I haven't played long but I can think of one guild that doesn't have this skill but should.
I wasn't talking about other strengths, just about flee. I'm just worried that if I play a fighter I will die in a bad way. I've had at least one bad death before that should not have happened. I don't want another. :'(
Quote from: Romy on January 03, 2012, 08:29:38 AM
Quote from: Cutthroat on January 03, 2012, 08:02:03 AM
Typically, if your guild doesn't have the flee skill, your guild's strength isn't in toe-to-toe fighting and tactical retreating. Exploiting those strengths that your PC does have would still be possible.
Are you talking to me? I guess you are. I haven't played long but I can think of one guild that doesn't have this skill but should.
I wasn't talking about other strengths, just about flee. I'm just worried that if I play a fighter I will die in a bad way. I've had at least one bad death before that should not have happened. I don't want another. :'(
I was responding to the last few posts lamenting that several guilds don't have flee (yours included).
My general point is that guilds that don't have flee, have other skills to make up for the lack, and we all have the ability to team up with other PCs with other skills. So in the end, even if other guilds don't get flee, they aren't so disadvantaged to the point of becoming unplayable - there is just a greater focus on utilizing their own unique skills, as well as the unique skills of others.
And if it's possible to dodge the attack like any other, it is likely still possible to flee and have your attacker swing and miss at you as you run, even if you don't have the skill.
Quote from: Cutthroat on January 03, 2012, 08:35:36 AM
Quote from: Romy on January 03, 2012, 08:29:38 AM
Quote from: Cutthroat on January 03, 2012, 08:02:03 AM
Typically, if your guild doesn't have the flee skill, your guild's strength isn't in toe-to-toe fighting and tactical retreating. Exploiting those strengths that your PC does have would still be possible.
Are you talking to me? I guess you are. I haven't played long but I can think of one guild that doesn't have this skill but should.
I wasn't talking about other strengths, just about flee. I'm just worried that if I play a fighter I will die in a bad way. I've had at least one bad death before that should not have happened. I don't want another. :'(
I was responding to the last few posts lamenting that several guilds don't have flee (yours included).
My general point is that guilds that don't have flee, have other skills to make up for the lack, and we all have the ability to team up with other PCs with other skills. So in the end, even if other guilds don't get flee, they aren't so disadvantaged to the point of becoming unplayable - there is just a greater focus on utilizing their own unique skills, as well as the unique skills of others.
And if it's possible to dodge the attack like any other, it is likely still possible to flee and have your attacker swing and miss at you as you run, even if you don't have the skill.
Was just thinking after my last post...I don't really know the mechanics of this function at this time, so I'm just purely speculating. Combine that with that the 'tactical withdrawal' is -still- part of the flee skill, and...well...I see two very distinct sides of the flee skill, each that makes sense, but one that seems to be more logical with everyone, and the other with those who are more...ordered...in their way of combat.
Hopefully, there are no penalties given to the one fleeing aside from the free attacks. Free attacks with no bonus given would be more understandable, like last swipes given in that single step before they establish distance and turn away to reach full speed. I, however, have always viewed the 'YOU CAN'T ESCAPE' message from fleeing to mean that you could not establish that separation. Those guilds without the skill, I do not see them as retarded and granting a combat advantage when they try to run...just that they are not a 'disciplined' type who can keep track of everything going on around them while they use that opportunity to escape.
Still think the solution lies in giving the flee skill to almost everyone, but maintaining different skill caps.
Edited to add: On a side note...hopefully this is not what is required to be considered to have the flee skill. This should be maxxed. (http://media.fukung.net/images/7724/89802Gibbon_monkey_dog_tail.gif)
Quote from: Qzzrbl on January 03, 2012, 01:59:25 AM
Quote from: Bacon on January 03, 2012, 01:56:33 AM
I disagree. Dangerous stuff is as dangerous as it should be already. It doesn't need to be more dangerous.
A lone newbie trekking through gith lands relatively unscathed dangerous does not make.
The bad and misleading thing about Arm's dangerousness is that you can do the same stupid thing a dozen times in a row and come out okay. Then on repeat #12--KABAAM. :-[
QuoteA lone newbie trekking through gith lands relatively unscathed dangerous does not make.
Ummmmm. I doubt a newbie can do this routinely. An experienced player with a new character can do this.
Quote from: Twilight on January 02, 2012, 11:33:42 PM
- It only really concerns me with very big critters where 1 hit is survivable and 2 hits aren't.
If you can get hit by a creature that can two hit you you shouldn't be fighting long enough for the first hit. You should be fleeing immediately. And only incurring the first hit on a bad flee.
Quote from: Yam on January 02, 2012, 11:41:15 PM
Quote from: Twilight on January 02, 2012, 11:33:42 PM
- I will hold you to the one hit. So I expect that dual wield folks will not get a full round (both weapons) but only one hit. Point for twohanders.
Pretty sure they get two
I can confirm this. [/list]
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 03, 2012, 01:34:10 PM
If you can get hit by a creature that can two hit you you shouldn't be fighting long enough for the first hit. You should be fleeing immediately. And only incurring the first hit on a bad flee.
Sometimes they enter the room and attack before you can leave the room. Sometimes that hit reels you. Sometimes some of them follow that hit with an immediate bash. Sometimes you're lucky enough to survive long enough to recover from the bash and flee. This addition further increases the chances that such an encounter means your pc is dead through no wrong doing of your own. I think with this addition, npc movement delays need to be increased and delay from being bashed decreased. I don't believe we need to die to npcs more than people do already.
I have to say that I have not recently (in the last few years, ever since NPC delay was introduced) run into the "unable to leave the room before X critter attacks" problem, with the exception of certain hidden and highly dangerous mobs... who are generally confined to specific areas which a wise person unable to handle them would merely avoid.
No more assassin/hunter pretending to be a ranger in the Byn/Kurac for me. The day we stumble on a lair of 5 spider/giths and instead of them all attacking someone who's trained to withstand assault, they'd attack the assassin. Before that was solved by either flee or rescue. Now flee will be totally and completely out of question.
Not a fan. 'Reel lock' was bad enough for an insta-death sentence on a hapless PC that had a nasty critter wander in. Combine that with this change, many deaths are going to result from being blindsided by NPC's that are sitting diagonally from you.
Or the half-giant that lumbers up, wielding one weapon in both hands, on a character that can't fight well. It pretty well guarantees that, so long as the half-giant manages to get a 'kill' command in, their target is going to die. Two handed damage is nasty enough, this just makes things all that much worse.
Now instead of assassin / hunter you can be warrior / slipknife!
Quote from: Dar on January 03, 2012, 02:22:46 PM
No more assassin/hunter pretending to be a ranger in the Byn/Kurac for me. The day we stumble on a lair of 5 spider/giths and instead of them all attacking someone who's trained to withstand assault, they'd attack the assassin. Before that was solved by either flee or rescue. Now flee will be totally and completely out of question.
Right! IMO everyone saying that this is so great a change as it is mostly plays the guilds with flee. This way it only adds to the deadliness of warriors. With his offense and defense bonus, including the new flee, a 10 day warrior would easily wipe the entire Rinth of all the sneaky people.
Quote from: Naruto on January 03, 2012, 04:49:07 PM
Right! IMO everyone saying that this is so great a change as it is mostly plays the guilds with flee. This way it only adds to the deadliness of warriors. With his offense and defense bonus, including the new flee, a 10 day warrior would easily wipe the entire Rinth of all the sneaky people.
Not if they're sneaky.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on January 03, 2012, 05:06:30 PM
Quote from: Naruto on January 03, 2012, 04:49:07 PM
Right! IMO everyone saying that this is so great a change as it is mostly plays the guilds with flee. This way it only adds to the deadliness of warriors. With his offense and defense bonus, including the new flee, a 10 day warrior would easily wipe the entire Rinth of all the sneaky people.
Not if they're sneaky.
Sneakiness doesn't last forever.
Quote from: Naruto on January 03, 2012, 05:09:06 PM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on January 03, 2012, 05:06:30 PM
Quote from: Naruto on January 03, 2012, 04:49:07 PM
Right! IMO everyone saying that this is so great a change as it is mostly plays the guilds with flee. This way it only adds to the deadliness of warriors. With his offense and defense bonus, including the new flee, a 10 day warrior would easily wipe the entire Rinth of all the sneaky people.
Not if they're sneaky.
Sneakiness doesn't last forever.
You've never played a sneaky.
QuoteIf you can get hit by a creature that can two hit you you shouldn't be fighting long enough for the first hit. You should be fleeing immediately. And only incurring the first hit on a bad flee.
Um, what? They automatically get the first hit if they are aggro and get the kill command in. So then you are looking at a second hit to even flee. As for whether they will get that command in, depends on a number of things, like your connection and the speed of your mount.
Obviously, if it was you that typed in the kill command, you should die for the stupidity.
Seen this implemented over the last day or two. I like it. Makes sense. IN dnd enemies get attacks of oppertunity when you leave a threatened square and flee.
Quote from: askaran on January 03, 2012, 05:55:39 PM
Seen this implemented over the last day or two. I like it. Makes sense. IN dnd enemies get attacks of oppertunity when you leave a threatened square and flee.
Yeah! In DnD you don't actually meet an NPC which can kill you in two hits most of the time. On the other hand, everyone has the chance to learn the feat mobility (in our case flee). And most combat moves (disarm, trip, graple, bullrush, overrun and sunder) give attacks an opportunity to all those you're fighting against.
huge nerf to non fleeing guilds. apparently i should've picked a better combo.
At the very least, I think the command lag on being rescued should be looked at before this goes in. As it stands it is ridiculous, it always has been ridiculous, and will remain ridiculous into the far-flung future.
Agreed, rescue lag should be looked at, including for the rescuee upon success.
Quote from: Delirium on January 03, 2012, 07:10:45 PM
Agreed, rescue lag should be looked at, including for the rescuee upon success.
Yes PLEASE. It's a death sentence to successfully rescue someone who's getting mobbed, when it should technically be increasing their survival.
Quote from: Naruto on January 03, 2012, 06:20:44 PM
In DnD you don't actually meet an NPC which can kill you in two hits most of the time....
I must be an asshole DM.
I notice that creatures that flee -from- you used to get a free hit. I havn't done combat in a while, though. I like the idea of vice-versa. Sure people are getting wise and will flee sooner but I'm a badass anyway. They shouldn't of even tried... unless I didn't give them a choice and still. After they figured out who I was they should just tuck their tail and run. Run and -maybe- die. Or stay and die. I win either way.
Also. People without the flee skill. That means they aren't skilled in fleeing. An assassin shouldn't be fleeing combat. He should be ending it with a single blow or with poison. Or other sneaky ways. Hire another warrior or something.
Ask for the gaint things that walk into a room diagonal from you dual-wielding teeth to two-hit you... true. It's gonna suck. It happens in an instant and breaks your heart in two. The easy fix (sort of) would be to allow us to look in diagonal directions. : D
I'm sick. Mleh. Summery: We should give a little more knowledge to new players.
We should put more warnings up about playing this game. Something like... "Don't try to knife raptors if you're a noob." I don't wanna see tutorials or anything. Just a little "be aware that you are a person living in a harsh land. Not a fantasy world of pretty princesses and fatty cakes that heal your wounds. Don't forget to gosh dang sleep." Or something... you know?
Quote from: Bacon on January 03, 2012, 01:14:54 AM
Not really. It won't change my characters at all. They either would be that way or not. The code doesn't decide my character's personality. It has the potential to be very oocly frustrating, especially for newer players, that is all. Some players are strictly offpeak. Some of us find ourselves stuck in periods where the only time we can play is offpeak. Things shouldn't be made so difficult that only peak players get to have any action. New players who like to see action, shouldn't have to play for several years before they do everything just right and have a little luck to keep a character alive for a while. We forget how difficult this game is for new people and need to remember that if we want to playerbase to continue to grow. It is really only a minority of veterans that post threads about it not being hard enough. That doesn't mean most of the playerbase agrees.
I know zalanthians are tougher then us Earthlings. But who goes out and decides they're going to kill a man-eating raptor with a sword crafted from the bones of their ancestors? A badass is who. And if you're new to the world of zalanthas you better ask somebody. Just kidding (sort of) True. I started playing Arm like 4-7 years ago... something. Thanks to Gunnerblaster (shoutout). Anyway... my first character died after I thought it would be cool to walk down a certain road and kick the first thing I saw. A mekillot. After that I made another character for shits and giggles just to learn how to play for real after my first terrible idea. But... the world was so overwhelming. I quit for like three years or something before the bastard pulled me back into this amazing world.
Regarding peak and off peak. I play characters peak time that for some reason have -no- PC contact. I consider that off peak. being a loner is easy. -if- you know how to do it. So I wouldn't reccomend the loner type character to mek kicking noobs.
Quote from: evilcabbage on January 02, 2012, 06:13:48 PM
Shouldn't have been going after Mets unless you were properly prepared.
lol. I had to say this made me laugh. You're silly cabbage. ((no offense intended))
Quote from: Bacon on January 02, 2012, 04:46:27 PM
QuoteSide 2: This change makes being a "guide" through the wastes a worthy venture.
No matter how good of a guide you are, there isn't anything to save you from the aggro npc in the room diagonal from you that you can't see until you move into an adjacent room.
First of all. You can 99% of the time always know where something is. People should stop being lazy and actually go north and south instead of just looking. Knowledge is power. Far more powerful than any sword. (unless your knowledge involves a sword. And fire)
guard and rescue, shields and the skill and perry, slashing weapons and the skill, bludgeoning weapons and the skill, piercing weapons and the skill, chopping weapons and the skill, a distraction, kick, bash, throw, throwable items, backstab, sap, game crashes, archery and bows and arrows or slings... or crossbows, armor, a reboot, poison, disarm, flee, IMM powers, various magicks, charge, trample, disarm, kick, bash, climb, prior irradication of the species of aggro npc. Those could totally be used to stop that bahamet you unfortunately stumbled upon. And probably no. A nooby wouldn't know that unless of course someone told him.
The mental image of somebody employing a sling against a bahamet is strangely hilarious. I digress, however.
Perhaps it was answered, but if so, I missed it: what happens if the 'free swing' causes the person attempting to flee to reel?
I think it was already mentioned, but perhaps now would also be a good time to review NPCs attacking with precisely 0 movement delay? It does seem to occur when they're going around in groups, and if it's only by blind luck (as opposed to skill) that a PC survives the initial attack, the odds against them are only getting worse if the NPCs get free digs on them when they try to flee. Would be nice to give them a chance to start running before the NPCs can initiate combat.
I just saw this new flee in action, and it made for a pretty awesome roleplay opportunity that would not have been possible before. I do think those with no flee skill are getting screwed, but it seems playable when considering the benefits too. Please fix the rescue though. The people who are more vulnerable due to this change just need to take more precautions I guess...
Hmm. Just a thought...is there any ability to tie this in with training ranged weapons on people to fire if they flee? :P
Quote from: Armaddict on January 04, 2012, 02:58:06 AM
Hmm. Just a thought...is there any ability to tie this in with training ranged weapons on people to fire if they flee? :P
Hands in the air! Move and your dead, kankfucker!!!
>train bow dude
I have to go change my pants now.
I would rather include a way of 'threatening' with a melee weapon.
command: threaten <keyword>
A message like, 'the big fat half-giant threatens you with his club'
If you flee, he gets a chance to start combat... or at least his flee-shot.
Even better would be a chase command that lets you chase someone automatically as they flee the same way follow works but without a person able to 'unhitch' you.
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As for the change, call me crazy but it seems like the flee-er gets a penalty to their defensive skills as they take off. I'm going to be finding -way- more newbie gear for the next couple of weeks.
QuoteAs for the change, call me crazy but it seems like the flee-er gets a penalty to their defensive skills as they take off.
(http://www.psychologyofgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/sad_panda.jpg)
Quote from: roughneck on January 04, 2012, 05:52:43 AM
As for the change, call me crazy but it seems like the flee-er gets a penalty to their defensive skills as they take off.
I'm going to call you crazy.
So I've seen this change. Don't like it. :'(
It just makes the game seem so much harder to me, and I barely understand things right now.
Oh well.
Absolutely not a fan of this one.
A hit in Armageddon can have a huge ammount variation. The difference between a hit on the leg or a hit in the neck can already be the difference between life and death. Also, mobs themselves and NPC's vary greatly. You might have killed a dozen tregils without ever having a problem, and then run into one that is uber skilled and strong compared to the others that look just like it.
I guess I'm just not sold on the necessity of this change. The observation by some that the land isnt "dangerous" enough is, in my opinion, the jaded view of those who are well aware of the dangers, and know how to avoid them.
Here is what I think about this change.
1. Groups of characters become immensely more powerful. Force multiplier. It's my opinion that gank squads, whether comprised of PCs or NPC soldiers just became that much more awesome (something they really didn't need). If you have five people after you chances are that one can bash you.
This also means that if you ever get accidentally crim coded near a group of militia NPCs... well, I hope you didn't roll good stats on that character. If there's any one of you here who hasn't seen or been through a near-miss incident due to a typo or nosaves, I've got a bridge to sell ya.
2. Half-giants and dwarves (and bahamets) just became immensely more powerful. As mentioned previously, strength totally tips the balance for this change. Did they really need this? I'm entirely unconvinced. I understand armageddon is not about PVP balance - but we're loading one side of the scale entirely too much.
3. Guilds without flee skill - Your abilities, utility and role in the game world have just changed (read: diminished) because apparently you have no familiarity with how to escape conflict... even if you are a DND rogue type guild. This is patently ridiculous. Anyone in game, regardless of class, should have the ability to get to say apprentice or journeyman flee. It's bad enough you could barely escape subdues before, now you're going to get hit in the back anytime you try to perform a hit and run.. even if that is your prerogative as a character and should be the #1 thing you would look out for.
4. Increased barrier to entry for new players. Think about it. We aren't exactly newbie friendly.
To summarize, I perceive this change as a negative one for the reasons listed. I hope this change is adequately dissected and discussed and improved to fit into the game, or dismissed otherwise. Maybe you guys should just add an extended subguild with maxed flee, since I can warrior / sorcerer or magicker / backstab now. Har, har.
Another question:
If a PC is being attacked by multiple opponents, and tries to flee, do they all get a chance to get a free hit in?
Still don't get what's so hard about fleeing a hit earlier than normal.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 04, 2012, 12:17:31 PM
Still don't get what's so hard about fleeing a hit earlier than normal.
Example:
Backstab.
Almost dead.
> Flee
hit.
Beep.
How is that any harsher than Backstab > dead. Or Sap > dead. Or Random mek walks into room > dead. Or warrior bashes you > dead.
If anything I'd argue that taking a shiv to the kidneys would mean you shouldn't be running at all. No offense but I'm happy for this change because of all you spam-fleeing bastards who get away with 1 hp.
Quote from: Necro on January 04, 2012, 11:23:40 AM
1. Groups of characters become immensely more powerful. Force multiplier. It's my opinion that gank squads, whether comprised of PCs or NPC soldiers just became that much more awesome (something they really didn't need). If you have five people after you chances are that one can bash you.
Groups of characters were already a force multiplier. One
could bash you before.
Quote2. Half-giants and dwarves (and bahamets) just became immensely more powerful. As mentioned previously, strength totally tips the balance for this change. Did they really need this? I'm entirely unconvinced. I understand armageddon is not about PVP balance - but we're loading one side of the scale entirely too much.
Morgenes stated earlier on the first page that more goes into this than the flee skill. Having high strength doesn't mean jack if you can't hit someone in the first place.
Quote
3. Guilds without flee skill - Your abilities, utility and role in the game world have just changed (read: diminished) because apparently you have no familiarity with how to escape conflict... even if you are a DND rogue type guild. This is patently ridiculous. Anyone in game, regardless of class, should have the ability to get to say apprentice or journeyman flee. It's bad enough you could barely escape subdues before, now you're going to get hit in the back anytime you try to perform a hit and run.. even if that is your prerogative as a character and should be the #1 thing you would look out for.
Not quite. Now you are going to have an
attempt from your opponent(s) to hit you. You can still flee even if you don't have the skill, and more does go into the equation than the presence of the skill or its level as indicated by Morg on the first page here.
Quote
4. Increased barrier to entry for new players.
I don't know that this is valid.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 04, 2012, 12:25:53 PM
How is that any harsher than Backstab > dead. Or Sap > dead. Or Random mek walks into room > dead. Or warrior bashes you > dead.
If anything I'd argue that taking a shiv to the kidneys would mean you shouldn't be running at all. No offense but I'm happy for this change because of all you spam-fleeing bastards who get away with 1 hp.
Cause
backstab - > almost dead -> flee
WILL give me a chance to survive.
Not with a hit which may be reeling me.
I'm just saying all those instances you are saying will be extra harsh, already have an instance of simply killing you outright. It's only going change a very small scenario where a character who isn't good at fleeing wont be able to get away with incredibly low health. As they probably shouldn't be. Now flee actually has a purpose as a skill, instead of a free get out of jail card for any situation where you character might die.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 04, 2012, 01:22:07 PM
I'm just saying all those instances you are saying will be extra harsh, already have an instance of simply killing you outright. It's only going change a very small scenario where a character who isn't good at fleeing wont be able to get away with incredibly low health. As they probably shouldn't be. Now flee actually has a purpose as a skill, instead of a free get out of jail card for any situation where you character might die.
You're making it sound as if everyone is looking for a way to search out this possibly lethal encounter.
That's not always the case.
Sometimes it can be simply some one little thing you're wearing which other NPC's may find attractive to kill you for. And sometimes it's not easy to find out if this item is or isn't acceptable.
Unless you wanna die. Apparently.
Quote from: Nyr on January 04, 2012, 12:39:12 PM
Quote from: Necro on January 04, 2012, 11:23:40 AM
Quote
4. Increased barrier to entry for new players.
I don't know that this is valid.
Actually checked numbers on the past month. Accounts had to be created within the past month and a PC had to die on the account. Then I checked runlogs to see if they had used the flee command; I then checked to see if that was associated with how they died.
1 used the flee command prior to dying in the room they used the flee command in. This would indicate that they did not flee successfully. Regardless of the system change, it would not have affected this newbie; failure to flee does not mean any attempt at an attack from the opponent.
1 used the flee command a few times prior to dying in a room far away from the room they used the flee command in. This would indicate that they did flee successfully. They did not try to flee from the thing that did eventually kill them. We cannot extrapolate on why. Yes, perhaps they may have died instead in the room they fled from--but perhaps not.
Increased complexity is also a barrier to entry. One that is not easily analyzed by your data mining ways.
I think you guys are making a big deal out of nothing.
Assassins, bahamets, mekillots, and other big baddies should be deadly to encounter. "LOL I can just run" is not really a valid mindset.
Really, increased complexity? Ok, hold your hands up if you did not play a game like D&D or other RPG before this game that had some kind of attack of opportunity mechanic.
Edited to add:
Armageddon is a complex game, we feel this is a needed and balanced change, we are sorry if you disagree.
Quote from: Iiyola on January 04, 2012, 01:27:14 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 04, 2012, 01:22:07 PM
I'm just saying all those instances you are saying will be extra harsh, already have an instance of simply killing you outright. It's only going change a very small scenario where a character who isn't good at fleeing wont be able to get away with incredibly low health. As they probably shouldn't be. Now flee actually has a purpose as a skill, instead of a free get out of jail card for any situation where you character might die.
You're making it sound as if everyone is looking for a way to search out this possibly lethal encounter.
That's not always the case.
Sometimes it can be simply some one little thing you're wearing which other NPC's may find attractive to kill you for. And sometimes it's not easy to find out if this item is or isn't acceptable.
Unless you wanna die. Apparently.
Death by NPC is almost always the players fault. If you live in the most dangerous place in the game don't blame the code for your death.
You seem to be missing my original point entirely. Which is that things like bash, backstab, high-strength pc's, reel code, aren't any more powerful with this change. Those things already have a chance of killing you outright. So what if now it's a 85% chance instead of 82% chance. You can avoid that the situation all together by just playing intelligently. ESPECIALLY in the realm of NPC's. And if you're complaining about the realm of PC's there's a wealth of roleplay options open to keep you safe, if you're finding yourself inept at understanding how to codedly survive the pvp "metagame".
Quote from: Delirium on January 04, 2012, 01:33:23 PM
I think you guys are making a big deal out of nothing.
Assassins, bahamets, mekillots, and other big baddies should be deadly to encounter. "LOL I can just run" is not really a valid mindset.
Exactly.
Quote from: Twilight on January 04, 2012, 01:31:01 PM
Increased complexity is also a barrier to entry. One that is not easily analyzed by your data mining ways.
I don't doubt that, but I doubt that this particular change is a complex one for new players to navigate. A new player is more likely to be confounded by getting things off of a table than "fleeing because I want to stay alive."
Quote from: Delirium on January 04, 2012, 01:33:23 PM
I think you guys are making a big deal out of nothing.
Assassins, bahamets, mekillots, and other big baddies should be deadly to encounter. "LOL I can just run" is not really a valid mindset.
I haven't chimed in much til now because I had to read over the thread and also test several of these scenarios out.
Yeah, bahamets and mekillots are deadly, no doubt about it...
...and slow.
Quote from: Delirium on January 04, 2012, 01:33:23 PM
I think you guys are making a big deal out of nothing.
Assassins, bahamets, mekillots, and other big baddies should be deadly to encounter. "LOL I can just run" is not really a valid mindset.
i kind of feel this way... if you're worried about getting hit one more time and fleeing is looking smarter than continuing the fight, you shouldn't be fighting it in the first place. if you've never fought something firsthand, just ask other players whether someone with no training could hunt it. players, not player, because otherwise you might be asking someone, "Hello, my good man, would you mind telling me the fastest way to kill myself and leave you all my stuff in a known radius where you can look for it?"
Quote from: Delusion on January 04, 2012, 11:44:44 AM
Another question:
If a PC is being attacked by multiple opponents, and tries to flee, do they all get a chance to get a free hit in?
Yes. All of them. Two times apiece if they're dual wielding.
<facetiousness> Half-elves should all get flee skill. </facetiousness>
Quote from: Morgenes on January 04, 2012, 01:34:05 PM
Really, increased complexity? Ok, hold your hands up if you did not play a game like D&D or other RPG before this game that had some kind of attack of opportunity mechanic.
Edited to add:
Armageddon is a complex game, we feel this is a needed and balanced change, we are sorry if you disagree.
attacks of opportunity in pen and paper are mitigated by feats / rogue mechanics. whereas in armageddon, rogue-guilds don't even seem to get flee. a far cry.
it's easy enough to kill people in this game, and to die accidentally. i am against making it harder to survive, especially in a way that doesn't seem to make sense. and no, data analysis doesn't really provide an accurate picture of how things will play out, your sample size just isn't large enough at this point. anyway, in the long run, my characters won't have a problem smashing the shit out of other chars with this mechanic.. so. hunting just got easier, killing citizen NPCs that flee just got easier, killing PCs just got easier, and surviving some zones in the game just became a lot harder. great.
Quote from: Necro on January 04, 2012, 03:10:57 PM
so. hunting just got easier, killing citizen NPCs that flee just got easier, killing PCs just got easier, and surviving some zones in the game just became a lot harder. great.
I fail to see the downside.
Quote from: Necro on January 04, 2012, 03:10:57 PM
Quote from: Morgenes on January 04, 2012, 01:34:05 PM
Really, increased complexity? Ok, hold your hands up if you did not play a game like D&D or other RPG before this game that had some kind of attack of opportunity mechanic.
Edited to add:
Armageddon is a complex game, we feel this is a needed and balanced change, we are sorry if you disagree.
attacks of opportunity in pen and paper are mitigated by feats / rogue mechanics. whereas in armageddon, rogue-guilds don't even seem to get flee. a far cry.
See above on "other things that affect this." You can, of course, pick a subguild that has flee. Or a guild that has flee. Or rely on other things alluded to previously in order to "successfully" flee.
Quote
it's easy enough to kill people in this game, and to die accidentally. i am against making it harder to survive, especially in a way that doesn't seem to make sense. and no, data analysis doesn't really provide an accurate picture of how things will play out, your sample size just isn't large enough at this point. anyway, in the long run, my characters won't have a problem smashing the shit out of other chars with this mechanic.. so. hunting just got easier, killing citizen NPCs that flee just got easier, killing PCs just got easier, and surviving some zones in the game just became a lot harder. great.
Our runlogs only go back so far. I went back as far as they went. Sorry, there's going to be no way to satisfy you with more facts. So your characters won't have problems, hunting is easier, killing citizen NPCs got easier, killing PCs got easier. The downside: surviving in some areas may be
somewhat more difficult for
a few character types. Sounds like an overall win for everyone, and those that aren't well-equipped to survive in the wilds or in combat will have more difficulty surviving in the wilds and in combat.
Imagine that!
I remember when the defense "nerf" was going to kill all the PCs. Then there was reel...that was definitely going to kill all the PCs. I seem to recall ride also threatening to kill all the PCs.
Guess what...none of that happened.
Also, on the subject of newbies: I watch newbies constantly. None of our newbies are going to pay any attention to this change or be affected by it at all. Their perception of the game is not going to be adversely affected by code complexity they don't encounter. (The vast majority of new accounts don't ever get into combat with their PCs.) When newbies do get into combat, they're lucky if they know the flee command at all, or have time to try it out when they're encountering their first scrab. Seriously, they're not going to be so OMG flummoxed by this change that they leave the game in droves. Now, you can choose not to believe the staff who actually work with and observe this stuff all the time on this matter, free country and all that jazz...but your disbelief doesn't make your argument legit.
Oh no this means I won't be able to sneak backstab flee sneak backstab flee rinse repeat any more :(
We have reviewed rescue and have reduced the delay it imparts to the target of the rescue.
BONZAI! To the rescue!
edit: i wish it still said that... sometimes. just sometimes.
I wrote a reply then realized I just pine for "the old days"
I am neutral about the change, I just sometimes wonder about direction in terms of overall code changes.
QuoteNot quite. Now you are going to have an attempt from your opponent(s) to hit you. You can still flee even if you don't have the skill, and more does go into the equation than the presence of the skill or its level as indicated by Morg on the first page here.
And it makes sense for those guilds to never improve at avoiding granting that effect...how?
Quote from: Twilight on January 04, 2012, 04:31:24 PM
I just pine for "the old days"
I just sometimes wonder about direction in terms of overall code changes.
This is kinda where my thoughts go with these changes. The combat system is totally different now than it used to be and I think I liked it better before all these changes, not one of these changes have made playing combat oriented characters -more- fun for me. Just made them harder. Harder is not equal to fun for me personally.
Quote from: Armaddict on January 04, 2012, 04:41:17 PM
QuoteNot quite. Now you are going to have an attempt from your opponent(s) to hit you. You can still flee even if you don't have the skill, and more does go into the equation than the presence of the skill or its level as indicated by Morg on the first page here.
And it makes sense for those guilds to never improve at avoiding granting that effect...how?
Does it make sense for a warrior to never improve at scanning? ... oh wait, there's a subguild for that now.
If you want the skill, grab it in character generation. I'll grant that assassins should get or branch flee, if they don't already. I can't remember.
Quote from: Armaddict on January 04, 2012, 04:41:17 PM
QuoteNot quite. Now you are going to have an attempt from your opponent(s) to hit you. You can still flee even if you don't have the skill, and more does go into the equation than the presence of the skill or its level as indicated by Morg on the first page here.
And it makes sense for those guilds to never improve at avoiding granting that effect...how?
We don't have a completely classless, any-skill system. You do have to pick and choose, and with that picking and choosing comes the downside: you may be deficient in some area. At present, it does make sense and is consistent with our own documentation, at least. It may not be preferable with regard to your own wishes, though.
I think it would make sense for assassins to have flee. How else do they survive all the botched sneak attacks to ever get good at it?
Quote from: Nyr on January 04, 2012, 04:50:46 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on January 04, 2012, 04:41:17 PM
QuoteNot quite. Now you are going to have an attempt from your opponent(s) to hit you. You can still flee even if you don't have the skill, and more does go into the equation than the presence of the skill or its level as indicated by Morg on the first page here.
And it makes sense for those guilds to never improve at avoiding granting that effect...how?
We don't have a completely classless, any-skill system. You do have to pick and choose, and with that picking and choosing comes the downside: you may be deficient in some area. At present, it does make sense and is consistent with our own documentation, at least. It may not be preferable with regard to your own wishes, though.
Right. However, more than rangers get ride, because it makes sense for everyone to be able to ride. It's required for a mode of transportation. Likewise, anyone, given the means, can learn to pilot, because it's a mode of transportation. Again, likewise, it seems this should be the same idea, because blaming a classless system for forcing more than half of the base classes to take free hits (note: Free hits, not free attacks, because that's how this will end up due to the relatively defenseless nature of those guilds in the absence of twinking) should require a -little- bit more of a defense then 'We don't have a classless system.'
Correct, there are subguilds with flee. Unfortunately, they also granted flee in a different circumstance of what flee was needed for. From subguild 'thief':
QuoteThey are able to approach their targets quietly as well as to escape in a hurry since they often botch their attempts.
It seems odd that the subguild logic for escape there is the same as well...hmm. Most of the classes that don't have flee.
Likewise, before you just accuse people of saying that they're crying because of changes and exaggerating, do try and realize that this is what you ask for. Feedback. In this case, some people dislike the change altogether, and some of us are saying that with a change like this, you may actually have to look backwards at past progress made and revamp it to fit the changes you just made. Games of all genres do it all the time, because it's required. This change, in particular, changes the utility and necessity of a skill that no one -really- cared about not having before, so they didn't throw up a fuss. But you just made it necessary, whicih means people who should have it...should have it.
Quote from: Delirium on January 04, 2012, 04:47:04 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on January 04, 2012, 04:41:17 PM
QuoteNot quite. Now you are going to have an attempt from your opponent(s) to hit you. You can still flee even if you don't have the skill, and more does go into the equation than the presence of the skill or its level as indicated by Morg on the first page here.
And it makes sense for those guilds to never improve at avoiding granting that effect...how?
Does it make sense for a warrior to never improve at scanning? ... oh wait, there's a subguild for that now.
If you want the skill, grab it in character generation. I'll grant that assassins should get or branch flee, if they don't already. I can't remember.
They don't.. And apparently will never be..
On the other hand, suggesting people to have a guild or subguild with flee would kinda kill the variety..
Quote from: Morgenes on January 04, 2012, 01:34:05 PM
Really, increased complexity? Ok, hold your hands up if you did not play a game like D&D or other RPG before this game that had some kind of attack of opportunity mechanic.
Edited to add:
Armageddon is a complex game, we feel this is a needed and balanced change, we are sorry if you disagree.
And as I already stated, in DND everyone can take the feat MOBILITY, which grants you an extra +4 AC against AoO in DnD-3.5 or makes you ignore all AoO in DnD-3. Please don't say DnD has the AoO, if you're not balancing it with something like the feat mobility.
This isn't DnD. It's a comparison, not an exact replica.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 04, 2012, 06:12:27 PM
This isn't DnD. It's a comparison, not an exact replica.
Yep!
Having seen it I think there should be more of an echo in there. Right now it's like this:
The typical-looking dwarf attempts to flee!
You slash the typical-looking dwarf on the head!
The typical-looking dwarf flees, heading east!
I'm thinking maybe something like this:
The typical-looking dwarf attempts to flee!
You attack him as he tries to escape!
You slash the typical-looking dwarf on the head!
The typical-looking dwarf flees, heading east!
I haven't seen it from the other point of view yet but similar echo to them about being attacked as they try to escape. And maybe a delay in there between the escape attempt and the attempt at the parting attack so one can disengage between them to prevent attempting a parting shot if they want to.
Quote from: Nyr on January 04, 2012, 12:39:12 PM
I don't know that this is valid.
Yeah, it is. I started in late 2010, and just came back after being frustrated to play my current pc.
Quote from: Naruto on January 04, 2012, 05:11:33 PM
And as I already stated, in DND everyone can take the feat MOBILITY, which grants you an extra +4 AC against AoO in DnD-3.5 or makes you ignore all AoO in DnD-3. Please don't say DnD has the AoO, if you're not balancing it with something like the feat mobility.
The comparison to Mobility or DnD in general isn't particularly valid since in 3.5/Pathfinder you can withdraw as a full round action and the square you started in is considered un-threatened (for the most part), hence no AoO during a withdraw unless you opponent has some form of reach, from size or large weapon. (See http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#withdraw) However, if you insist, I would imagine that a similar function to Mobility is likely already factored into the roll based on the skill of your character whether it be defensive bonus, agility or some other factor. Get more skilled, now you have mobility.
Furthermore, you say "Everyone can take the feat Mobility" (thus sacrificing something else that may be important for their character) which equates to "Everyone can take a subguild that has flee".
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to play the game for some time, but look forward to seeing the new changes over the past few months.
Does this also applies to NPCs that flee?
Quote from: Talia on January 04, 2012, 04:08:00 PM
Also, on the subject of newbies: I watch newbies constantly. None of our newbies are going to pay any attention to this change or be affected by it at all. Their perception of the game is not going to be adversely affected by code complexity they don't encounter.
Okay.
Quote from: Romy on January 04, 2012, 07:10:35 PM
Quote from: Nyr on January 04, 2012, 12:39:12 PM
I don't know that this is valid.
Yeah, it is. I started in late 2010, and just came back after being frustrated to play my current pc.
The person in question that I was responding to was detailing that this particular change would be deemed a detriment to newbies. I was referring to a very specific thing, this code in particular. What was the particular reason that you took a hiatus/stopped playing/quit (provided it is not too specific)?
Quote from: zakattack on January 04, 2012, 07:16:02 PM
The comparison to Mobility or DnD in general isn't particularly valid since in 3.5/Pathfinder you can withdraw as a full round action and the square you started in is considered un-threatened (for the most part), hence no AoO during a withdraw unless you opponent has some form of reach, from size or large weapon. (See http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#withdraw) However, if you insist, I would imagine that a similar function to Mobility is likely already factored into the roll based on the skill of your character whether it be defensive bonus, agility or some other factor. Get more skilled, now you have mobility.
So? Using withdraw still may give AoO to your opponents. It doesn't negate all of it. Couldn't get your point there. But I saw how skilled you are, thanks for your suggestion. ::)
Feedback is in order.
New rescue buff is cool. I would like a guard like ability that will allow friendlies to assist their fleeing comrades.
Staff NEEDS to make an adjustment to sparring. I will be refusing to spar some characters until then. This is not an over reaction.
Staff NEEDS to do something about the great big bad mobs that can two-hit kill you. Unless it's changed recently, I've never encountered a bahamet that was slow on the draw. A simple echo that a big something something inhabits the diagonal square would suffice.
Has npc track been fixed yet? If not then it NEEDS to be fixed. A lethal new addition like this while a lethal bug remains just baffles me.
Edit: Accidental double post.
Quote from: Jingo on January 04, 2012, 09:44:45 PM
Feedback is in order.
New rescue buff is cool. I would like a guard like ability that will allow friendlies to assist their fleeing comrades.
Staff NEEDS to make an adjustment to sparring. I will be refusing to spar some characters until then. This is not an over reaction.
This might be a bit of an overreaction. Fleeing before you get down to that point is certainly an option, and we don't particularly have any "sparring" to make an adjustment for. It's just regular combat with sparring weapons. It is your choice to refuse to spar, of course. There is not a guarantee that a character will hit yours if you flee and have no flee skill, there are other things taken into account.
QuoteStaff NEEDS to do something about the great big bad mobs that can two-hit kill you. Unless it's changed recently, I've never encountered a bahamet that was slow on the draw. A simple echo that a big something something inhabits the diagonal square would suffice.
Like account for the fact that it is slow? Already mentioned above. Bahamets in particular may be faster-moving than a mekillot, but still slower than the average PC.
Quote
Has npc track been fixed yet? If not then it NEEDS to be fixed. A lethal new addition like this while a lethal bug remains just baffles me.
I'm not sure I follow.
And I do get that you feel more needs to be done, I am just offering the devil's advocate counterpoints.
Quote from: Jingo on January 04, 2012, 09:44:45 PM
Staff NEEDS to do something about the great big bad mobs that can two-hit kill you. Unless it's changed recently, I've never encountered a bahamet that was slow on the draw. A simple echo that a big something something inhabits the diagonal square would suffice.
I just moseyed past a couple of big-bad-1-hit-kill-wonders that didn't manage to attack me.
Maybe you just need a faster set of legs, brah.
"... and that was when, suddenly, agility became an important stat once more."
(i'm joking. mostly.)
Quote from: Nyr on January 04, 2012, 07:46:22 PM
Quote from: Romy on January 04, 2012, 07:10:35 PM
Quote from: Nyr on January 04, 2012, 12:39:12 PM
I don't know that this is valid.
Yeah, it is. I started in late 2010, and just came back after being frustrated to play my current pc.
The person in question that I was responding to was detailing that this particular change would be deemed a detriment to newbies. I was referring to a very specific thing, this code in particular. What was the particular reason that you took a hiatus/stopped playing/quit (provided it is not too specific)?
I don't know detriment. Sorry my english is not very good.
I stopped playing because I died so many times and did not understand how things worked, and combat seemed too fast and too hard. I even followed advice and joined a clan, only to be killed while sparring. I guess just bad luck is why I quit. I decided to come back to just try one more time.
Quote
Staff NEEDS to do something about the great big bad mobs that can two-hit kill you. Unless it's changed recently, I've never encountered a bahamet that was slow on the draw. A simple echo that a big something something inhabits the diagonal square would suffice.
I just moseyed past a couple of big-bad-1-hit-kill-wonders that didn't manage to attack me.
Maybe you just need a faster set of legs, brah.
Last time I was killed by one, it was mid-emote. I'll admit that better Arm-Fu would probably have saved me. I'm also certain that I looked in all directions before the emote.
QuoteQuote
Has npc track been fixed yet? If not then it NEEDS to be fixed. A lethal new addition like this while a lethal bug remains just baffles me.
I'm not sure I follow.
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,7381.msg70561.html#msg70561
X-D brings it up here. It's been a longstanding issue. I lost one of my favorite characters to a raptor that tracked her through leagues of magickal darkness.
Um, just checking but mercy does factor in on this parting shot doesn't it?
It's a complicated issue that really is less simple than it being "bugged." It is the way it is because it is preferable to other methods we have used (and tried) in the past.
Quote from: Bacon on January 05, 2012, 12:05:00 AM
Um, just checking but mercy does factor in on this parting shot doesn't it?
Don't think so - I've seen some nasty flee hits with mercy on.
Quote from: Wolfsong on January 05, 2012, 12:18:21 AM
Quote from: Bacon on January 05, 2012, 12:05:00 AM
Um, just checking but mercy does factor in on this parting shot doesn't it?
Don't think so - I've seen some nasty flee hits with mercy on.
It should only apply if the hit was going to kill them. "showing mercy, you withhold the killing blow," etc.
The only "concern" I'd have to the new flee, would be regarding the NPC mobs that show up and start swinging without the requisite movement delay. Sometimes it takes only that one .5-second "tick" for a player to understand that something is about to happen and he has to react, somehow.
And if a rampaging raptor shows up in your "room" it only makes sense that you would at -least- have enough time to shout, in northern-accented sirihish, "Shit!" before the claws start slashing.
Sometimes though, the mobs don't give you that chance. And yet, YOU have to wait that tick, when it's your turn to show up. Tregils insta-flee. But if a tregil became aggro, and you walked east, and the tregil from the north walked south to you, you would -not- be able to insta-flee. You'd have to wait for your movement delay from walking east was finished. The tregil doesn't have to abide by that same coded rule.
So I'd like to see the mobs have to abide by the same code that players do, with regards to insta-attacking, and insta-fleeing.
Other than that, I don't see any "issue" with flee. It's a risky skill, you're using it because you have already put yourself at risk. So I'm good with the changes.
If you have specific evidence (with timestamps) that shows a mob entering a room and attacking within a half second, please submit a request with your time-stamped log.
All NPCs should have a delay before they can attack after moving, same as PCs. If they don't, it's a bug and needs to be addressed. But we don't have anything other than anecdotal evidence of this occurring.
I think it happens when one or more mobs follow another into a room with a PC in it. The first mob into the room suffers movement/attack lag, but its followers do not have lag and can attack immediately. My character's not in the position to test this though so I can't send in any logs.
Quote from: Morgenes on January 05, 2012, 09:40:29 AM
If you have specific evidence (with timestamps) that shows a mob entering a room and attacking within a half second, please submit a request with your time-stamped log.
All NPCs should have a delay before they can attack after moving, same as PCs. If they don't, it's a bug and needs to be addressed. But we don't have anything other than anecdotal evidence of this occurring.
Wait, you want us to risk our pcs trying to get that to happen to us on purpose so we can give you a log to prove it? Why can't someone on staff load up a char and go test it out? It seems to me it's usually the really dangerous aggro ones that do this sometimes.
Quote from: Bacon on January 05, 2012, 10:24:31 AM
Wait, you want us to risk our pcs trying to get that to happen to us on purpose so we can give you a log to prove it? Why can't someone on staff load up a char and go test it out? It seems to me it's usually the really dangerous aggro ones that do this sometimes.
Of course, more brainz!
If you have specific sdescs or even types of npcs that you know do this (even information like ones that group up together), please submit them to a request about it.
Quote from: Morgenes on January 05, 2012, 10:27:13 AM
Quote from: Bacon on January 05, 2012, 10:24:31 AM
Wait, you want us to risk our pcs trying to get that to happen to us on purpose so we can give you a log to prove it? Why can't someone on staff load up a char and go test it out? It seems to me it's usually the really dangerous aggro ones that do this sometimes.
Of course, more brainz!
*laughs*
I tested an NPC going through a series of scripted movement commands to attack a non-aggressive NPC a few rooms away. I then switched out of the NPC and went to the room and waited to watch.
It eventually got to the room.
It did go through the same movement lag before attacking.
I tested an NPC group as well.
Three similar NPCs, all in the same room, were set up to follow one of these NPCs. I named it Spanky. One of the followers I named Bill. I switched into Spanky and ran through movement commands to a non-aggressive NPC a few rooms away. I switched out of Spanky and into Bill. As soon as our group got to the target room, I hit "Kill target." I had to wait.
I checked out a special attack that is set on a particular NPC that folks may be worried about with this change. That special attack also will not fire off if the NPC is in a wait state (such as waiting from movement lag). Note that there is not movement lag inside the room itself, so if (for instance) npcs are breaking off from a "pack" npc due to, say, another script...that is not considered "movement."
I don't mean carru by any of this testing, though. That's intentional.
Yeah, so far, nothing I'm finding does an instant attack with no movement lag.
In my experience, it doesn't happen all the time. Just every now and then. It has been several months since the last time it happened to me. I don't log all the time (only during rpts) and my client doesn't do any sort of timestamp that I know of so I can't be any more helpful about figuring it out.
Now working on nearby room aggro attack testing with multiple NPCs.
Yes, it happens quickly.
No, it is not instantaneous, and is (in fact) exactly comparable to the exact scenarios I described earlier. It seems faster because you are going apeshit (appropriately) over reading the roomspam of things entering the room.
Thanks for looking into it. My immediate response when the problem was first noted is that I have seen this happen, where things jump into the room and are immediately attacking my character. But it has occurred to me that it could be my connection. Maybe on the server side the mob enters my room and then waits a space to attack me, but on my client side it happens right on top of the other because that's just how I received the packets to my PC. This might explain why it only happens now and then.
Anyway, next time it happens I'll send a request. Hopefully you can take my word that I saw it happen instantly. I'll take your word that a mob test indicates it's just me. ;)
Nyr ... test it with kryl ... :-\
Groups of kryl ... *shivers as the nightmares return*
Quote from: valeria on January 05, 2012, 11:23:08 AM
My immediate response when the problem was first noted is that I have seen this happen, where things jump into the room and are immediately attacking my character. But it has occurred to me that it could be my connection. Maybe on the server side the mob enters my room and then waits a space to attack me, but on my client side it happens right on top of the other because that's just how I received the packets to my PC. This might explain why it only happens now and then.
Yeah, I just had this same thought as well. And thanks for checking it out Nyr.
Quote from: musashi on January 05, 2012, 11:23:20 AM
Nyr ... test it with kryl ... :-\
Groups of kryl ... *shivers as the nightmares return*
Was just about to send in a request with this. Lost more than one PC... I will send it still.
We're also looking at the hunt skill and how npcs use it. For the record there is a limit to it, however you may have trouble getting to that limit as it stands.
They
all work the same, yes. Text-based games may transmit quickly over the interwebs (comparatively speaking, w/r/t graphical games), but we are talking about a matter of only a handful of seconds.
Quote from: Dan on January 05, 2012, 11:29:47 AM
Quote from: musashi on January 05, 2012, 11:23:20 AM
Nyr ... test it with kryl ... :-\
Groups of kryl ... *shivers as the nightmares return*
Was just about to send in a request with this. Lost more than one PC... I will send it still.
Quote from: Nyr on January 05, 2012, 10:53:55 AM
I checked out a special attack that is set on a particular NPC that folks may be worried about with this change. That special attack also will not fire off if the NPC is in a wait state (such as waiting from movement lag). Note that there is not movement lag inside the room itself, so if (for instance) npcs are breaking off from a "pack" npc due to, say, another script...that is not considered "movement."
I don't mean carru by any of this testing, though. That's intentional.
I can't really get more specific than this.
Yes, kryl are included in the "they all work the same way."
Quote from: Nyr on January 05, 2012, 11:11:31 AM
No, it is not instantaneous, and is (in fact) exactly comparable to the exact scenarios I described earlier. It seems faster because you are going apeshit (appropriately) over reading the roomspam of things entering the room.
I'm not so sure about that....
I do recall having an AI agility character get beetle'd after loading my command queue down with "n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n".
Was one of those situations where I was merrily riding northward, wild beetle pops in from the east, attacks, knocks me off my mount, I flee and then spam north and it caught up to me after a couple of rooms and eated mai character.
Though... This
was sometime last year, or maybe even the year before, and it may have been caused by lag more than anything.
I haven't seen the group insta-attack in a couple of years at least. I think one of the previous code changes a couple of years back that made NPCs respect wait state on their skills actually fixed this as well, or another code change of the same vintage.
The only thing I can think of where if you are quick typing and the NPC might actually have the drop on you code wise is something like:
n
A fast baddie arrives from the west
n
A fast baddie arries from the south
A fast baddie attacks you
Where you are either walking or riding a really slow mount. Its been at least a year since I experienced that (that long since I rode a slow mount) and it is extremely hard to say for sure what is happening player side without stacked commands.
Edited to add: There are rare instances when you will encounter an NPC that is running, rather than walking. This can change the regular dynamic, obviously.
Quote from: Yam on January 05, 2012, 10:17:47 AM
I think it happens when one or more mobs follow another into a room with a PC in it. The first mob into the room suffers movement/attack lag, but its followers do not have lag and can attack immediately. My character's not in the position to test this though so I can't send in any logs.
Quote from: Twilight on January 05, 2012, 11:54:02 AM
I haven't seen the group insta-attack in a couple of years at least. I think one of the previous code changes a couple of years back that made NPCs respect wait state on their skills actually fixed this as well, or another code change of the same vintage.
Yah, this was fixed a long time ago.
As for the "track bug," it refers to those NPCs with special tracking scripts like raptors, Red Desert gith, Red Desert Mantis, and that one certain trained attack tembo associated with an NPC elven tribe that no longer exists.
Occasionally, this script will force an NPC to make several actions at once, even immediately after entering a room. I had a PC that dealt with raptors regularly for at least two years (RL), and it was fairly common for them to start acting wonky once that tracking script was engaged. Sometimes they would track immediately after entering a room, seeming to ignore me for a few seconds until they attacked or just attack immediately after entering the room.
Quote from: musashi on January 05, 2012, 11:23:20 AM
Nyr ... test it with kryl ... :-\
Groups of kryl ... *shivers as the nightmares return*
Not just with groups of kryl, but that one group of kryl. I had a run in with those years ago, and the followers attacked me all at once. I'm pretty sure that's been fixed, but if the staff needs to test with that one group, let me know how I can give more detail.
Popped in a critical game bug request there for the instant attack problem, along with a log.
Gah, I keep skimming through my brain and coming up with more to say.
Quote from: Nyr on January 05, 2012, 11:35:44 AM
Yes, kryl are included in the "they all work the same way."
Well, there is one group of kryl set to follow a, "leader," so they may be a subtle modification that was overlooked with previous changes.
Quote from: Dalmeth on January 05, 2012, 12:59:31 PM
Gah, I keep skimming through my brain and coming up with more to say.
Quote from: Nyr on January 05, 2012, 11:35:44 AM
Yes, kryl are included in the "they all work the same way."
Well, there is one group of kryl set to follow a, "leader," so they may be a subtle modification that was overlooked with previous changes.
I checked them too
Quote from: Qzzrbl on January 05, 2012, 11:46:53 AM
Quote from: Nyr on January 05, 2012, 11:11:31 AM
No, it is not instantaneous, and is (in fact) exactly comparable to the exact scenarios I described earlier. It seems faster because you are going apeshit (appropriately) over reading the roomspam of things entering the room.
I'm not so sure about that....
I do recall having an AI agility character get beetle'd after loading my command queue down with "n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n".
Was one of those situations where I was merrily riding northward, wild beetle pops in from the east, attacks, knocks me off my mount, I flee and then spam north and it caught up to me after a couple of rooms and eated mai character.
Though... This was sometime last year, or maybe even the year before, and it may have been caused by lag more than anything.
or it was running and you weren't (or your mount is slow as poop)
After having a very limited experience with the new flee code, I don't think it's that big of a deal, but I do have a few issues with it.
The biggest is that it makes "hard but slow" hitters, like Bahamets, mekillots, half giants, and others much more powerful. I think that the free hit should probably be based on agility or attack speed, because a bahamet being able to rapid-fire a pair of bites at people because they decided to flee right after they were bitten is sort of silly. This may be intended, it may be overlooked, it may not work like this at all, but from my understanding of the code so far this is how it functions, and I think it's not a good way for it to function in terms of IC realism or OOC fun. Something that's incredibly fast and quick attacking should almost always get a free swing, or maybe two, while something that's slow shouldn't always get to bite again right after it threw it's massive weight off balance with a first attack. I also think it would do a lot to make the danger of certain creatures more realistic, because you should be afraid that if you attack a fast creature and have to flee, you might not be able to get away from it without taking a few hits.
The second issue is what someone else said about needing a clearer echo that the attack is because of fleeing. As it is now, it's just another swing.
The third issue I have is that none of the guilds which have flee mention them doing so in the help files, and as such, I can only think of one guild which I know for a fact has flee. Subguilds do, but not actual guilds.
The fourth issue I have might not be an issue at all, but #3 makes it seem like one. However, because I only know of one guild (maybe two) with flee it seems like this is going to make the guilds which are strongest in combat stronger, and the guilds which are the weakest in combat weaker. It seems like flee should be a general skill, like shield use or dual wield or two-handed, and guilds or subguilds should increase the cap to the point where it actually becomes reliable.
Those four issues aside, I actually think the change is better, because it's sort of silly what people can do when they're isolated in 2 rooms and exploit combat delay and flee.
Quote from: Nyr on January 05, 2012, 01:14:45 PM
or it was running and you weren't (or your mount is slow as poop)
To be fair, yes, PCs are faster than most animals that could kill them instantly. However, only a handful of mounts, which most PCs use, are as fast or faster than the player, and those mounts tend to be expensive or rare.
Though it is worth noting that one of the fastest mounts is also one of the most common.
Quote from: Celest on January 05, 2012, 01:34:16 PMit may not work like this at all
It doesn't work like this at all; it has been mentioned before (a few times) that there are other factors involved. Again, it is not a free hit, but a free attempt at an attack, tempered by the same combat code that has existed for years.
Quote
The second issue is what someone else said about needing a clearer echo that the attack is because of fleeing. As it is now, it's just another swing.
We could make an echo for that. It is worth noting that the fact that you get attacked
after you flee head over heels should point out that this is an attack happening
because you fled head over heels.
Quote
The third issue I have is that none of the guilds which have flee mention them doing so in the help files, and as such, I can only think of one guild which I know for a fact has flee. Subguilds do, but not actual guilds.
That's something we can look at.
Quote
The fourth issue I have might not be an issue at all, but #3 makes it seem like one. However, because I only know of one guild (maybe two) with flee it seems like this is going to make the guilds which are strongest in combat stronger, and the guilds which are the weakest in combat weaker. It seems like flee should be a general skill, like shield use or dual wield or two-handed, and guilds or subguilds should increase the cap to the point where it actually becomes reliable.
Much like ride and direction sense, if it is important to your character to be able to flee without the possibility of an extra attack of opportunity at your fleeing, picking a subguild or guild with an aptitude for it would be preferable. You
can still flee even if you don't have the skill. There is no guarantee that the attack will land. There are other factors involved governing that. Yes, now some combat guilds and subguilds have an advantage that they did not have before. We do not feel that this is an unreasonable advantage.
Quote from: Nyr on January 05, 2012, 01:49:57 PM
We could make an echo for that. It is worth noting that the fact that you get attacked after you flee head over heels should point out that this is an attack happening because you fled head over heels.
Yeah, I was just thinking it would "paint the picture" of what is going on more clearly with an additional echo fit in there.
Quote from: Dalmeth on January 05, 2012, 01:35:17 PM
Quote from: Nyr on January 05, 2012, 01:14:45 PM
or it was running and you weren't (or your mount is slow as poop)
To be fair, yes, PCs are faster than most animals that could kill them instantly. However, only a handful of mounts, which most PCs use, are as fast or faster than the player, and those mounts tend to be expensive or rare.
Though it is worth noting that one of the fastest mounts is also one of the most common.
Right. That doesn't point to there being a problem with NPCs not having movement delay prior to attacking, though. So far, I've yet to duplicate a single scenario mentioned, after multiple tests. I will continue to try and find one, but so far people are reporting that this is intermittent, only happened once or twice with them, etc.--yet all scenarios are different, with different NPCs, NPC groups, and programs involved. Even with that accounted for in testing, I am still unable to duplicate, which leads me to point towards connections, movement delay on the part of the PC, and player perception. Even I was affected by the last bit during testing. I had to use a timer to be sure that the delay was comparable; I was sure that I'd found something but it was approximately the same amount of delay.
Quote from: Nyr on January 05, 2012, 01:49:57 PM
It doesn't work like this at all; it has been mentioned before (a few times) that there are other factors involved. Again, it is not a free hit, but a free attempt at an attack, tempered by the same combat code that has existed for years.
I knew that it was a free attack, so I should have used that word instead, but what I meant was that the free attack seemed to come regardless of their attack speed or weapon. That is, if a big half giant or slow dwarf attacks you with a huge 2h weapon, and you flee .1 seconds later, then he gets another free attack (but
not a free, guaranteed hit) even though he had just swung. I just want to clarify that it was the instant attack after a prior one should not be happening? If so, then I guess my biggest concern is put to rest :)
QuoteWe could make an echo for that. It is worth noting that the fact that you get attacked after you flee head over heels should point out that this is an attack happening because you fled head over heels.
For the flee-er, it's very easy to miss that when you flee because you're given a whole new room's desc, but you are right that it is possible to tell at the moment. It would also just be nicer for the sake of future clarification, because I'm sure that new players or returning players in a few months may not pick up on that if they're unaware of the change.
Quote from: Nyr on January 05, 2012, 02:03:12 PM
Right. That doesn't point to there being a problem with NPCs not having movement delay prior to attacking, though. So far, I've yet to duplicate a single scenario mentioned, after multiple tests. I will continue to try and find one, but so far people are reporting that this is intermittent, only happened once or twice with them, etc.--yet all scenarios are different, with different NPCs, NPC groups, and programs involved. Even with that accounted for in testing, I am still unable to duplicate, which leads me to point towards connections, movement delay on the part of the PC, and player perception. Even I was affected by the last bit during testing. I had to use a timer to be sure that the delay was comparable; I was sure that I'd found something but it was approximately the same amount of delay.
Yeah, that was me digressing back to a previous point.
Anyway, the greatest benefit from this discussion is a few people might report if they see it, and if they don't, maybe it was fixed a long time ago.
Quote from: Celest on January 05, 2012, 02:06:50 PM
Quote from: Nyr on January 05, 2012, 01:49:57 PM
It doesn't work like this at all; it has been mentioned before (a few times) that there are other factors involved. Again, it is not a free hit, but a free attempt at an attack, tempered by the same combat code that has existed for years.
I knew that it was a free attack, so I should have used that word instead, but what I meant was that the free attack seemed to come regardless of their attack speed or weapon. That is, if a big half giant or slow dwarf attacks you with a huge 2h weapon, and you flee .1 seconds later, then he gets another free attack (but not a free, guaranteed hit) even though he had just swung. I just want to clarify that it was the instant attack after a prior one should not be happening? If so, then I guess my biggest concern is put to rest :)
Think of it this way, when you're fighting, part of the delay between swings is waiting for the right opportunity to swing, both from an agility standpoint and skill standpoint. When someone turns around and flees, they are dropping their guard (unless they have the flee skill) to run away, giving their attackers an opening to make an attack.
This is exactly the same as the attack that is given if you try and pick something up in the middle of combat. You gave them an opening, and they have a chance to take advantage of it. In this case the flee skill represents your training in minimizing that exposure.
Note though, that more is taken into account than just the flee skill, as Nyr has stated and I have as well. If you think about it, it would make sense that it's easier to get away from those giants that are so slow, wouldn't it? I know you aren't going to go try it and see, but maybe have a little faith on this point. We handled that.
Rather than edit, I'll double post.
Next reboot we will have a message that is given when this happens, for those of you setting up triggers at home it will read:
<attacker> seizes the opening and attacks <victim>.
The one you're gonna want to highlight is 'seizes the opening and attacks you.'
Its basically the same rules that govern the same mechanic in D&D 3.5.
I like it there, I like it here.
:)
Will shady-types get a special skill (see feat) that allows them to withdraw and pass combatants without provoking an attack of opportunity? (I joke, I joke.)
Quote from: Desertman on January 05, 2012, 03:20:24 PM
Its basically the same rules that govern the same mechanic in D&D 3.5.
I like it there, I like it here.
:)
Will shady-types get a special skill (see feat) that allows them to withdraw and pass combatants without provoking an attack of opportunity? (I joke, I joke.)
If they pick a subguild with flee, mostly.
At the risk of getting pelted by many tiny pebbles.
Lots of people say Celves are codedly underpowered. Perhaps ... add flee to their racial skill?
Quote from: new helpfile on elvesCity elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and
have adapted to live by their flee skill. True to the nature of elves they also
live by their ability to flee, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens
of other races because they can flee from them. Some city elves are members
of tribes fleeing about hither and yon in some run-down space within its walls;
others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all where they may flee and
not be nearly as codedly underpowered as claimed.
Right-o!
On a more serious note. The addition does not truly go against the Celven theme and only reinforces their status of an underdog. Elves are underdogs within the city, and underdogs 'do' survive on their ability to flee, amongst other things.
Quote from: Nyr on January 05, 2012, 05:10:13 PM
Quote from: new helpfile on elvesCity elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and
have adapted to live by their flee skill. True to the nature of elves they also
live by their ability to flee, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens
of other races because they can flee from them. Some city elves are members
of tribes fleeing about hither and yon in some run-down space within its walls;
others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all where they may flee and
not be nearly as codedly underpowered as claimed.
Lol, oh crap. I think I hurt something.
I thought that was the actual helpfile for a good minute.
QuoteWarriors generally exist with some sort of basis of honor, usually with some
inclusion of the ability to smackdown those who try to flee who don't know how
to run correctly. Warriors generally laugh hysterically at those 'siderunners' who try to run
sideways, and therefore, take arrows to the knee and maces to the face. Those fucking
noobs at life haven't learned to run yet.
I can does it too?
Quote from: Dar on January 05, 2012, 05:11:25 PM
Right-o!
On a more serious note. The addition does not truly go against the Celven theme and only reinforces their status of an underdog. Elves are underdogs within the city, and underdogs 'do' survive on their ability to flee, amongst other things.
:)
I was just poking fun at it, but I dunno that they need any particular racial ability to do so.
Is there a possible 'insta attack' scenario where a number of factors come together like so to create the appearance of an insta attack:
1. Mobile enters room and receives an attack delay that will expire close to the next scheduling check. I don't know how long these are. Let's say 1 second.
2. MUD handles other AI processes or commands and eventually gets around to sending data to players.
3. MUD transmits data to player. Let's say it takes 150ms to send and be received (could be twice that given my location).
4. Human reaction to the mobile entering. Eat up 200ms or so, possibly longer.
5. Data returns to MUD. Another 150ms. MUD has to get around to receiving player input. It could be in any state, including just having finished handling player input.
6. MUD expires attack delay.
7. MUD induces NPC to attack.
8. Player command attempted.
It depends on game flow execution and network latency. Is this a possible cause for these alleged insta attacks?
Quote from: Morgenes on January 02, 2012, 11:51:42 AM
To Delirium's post, this will help with the skilling up of flee as well. For the record, a request indicating that flee was hard to train up is what brought this to our attention, and so we are changing things to help.
Bahahaha. Armageddon Imms <3.
Oh, you want to skill up, do you? Here, let me help.
I think this could be neat, it'll make the game harsher, though I'm worried crim-code instadeath will occur more frequently as well.
It's almost impossible to train up poison tolerance.
Solution:
A) Make atmosphere toxic.
B) Actually code up poison tolerance.
Result:
Survivors trained up their poison tolerance successfully.
I've read about five pages of the responses so far and I must I hear alot of "I dont want my character to die." responses.
If you're out alone in the sands and you come across Big Nasty A which kills you in TWO hits, but usually not ONE... don't you think its realistic you should just die anyway? There are no "injuries" in this game persay, but when you get hit for HORRENDOUS damage upon your leg and you RUN AWAY from a Mek.....? Or an arm? Or your wrist?
I think you see what I am getting at... you would of been fucked anyway, dead most likely, alone in the desert with a gaping wound in your body being tracked by some crazed animal.
I see a point when it comes to packs of NPC's that might all get to land a swing upon you, but when it comes to situations like that I think you might also die anyway. These arent NPC's that group up as a group of five and simply come at you from one direction. You should really picture a pack of Hyenas', working as a team to take down their prey, you know? They don't come at you from the front and you turn around and run, they're ALL AROUND YOU. They came after you from different directions, they surrounded you and nipped at your heels and back, they tried to bite your neck but you managed to run, for a moment, but suddenly there were more in the direction you ran, as you run by, whap whap a few more bites.
I think the change is fine really because I think half the times people get away from a fight they probably would of died from the wounds anyway(at least the fights you claim one extra hit will end you).
As for the PVP Aspect of it all, I really think it could be TRULY deadly in the hands of HIGHLY skilled players versus ones that are just mediocre or bad. I've almost been one-shotted before by big hammer wielding tough-guys and I can only imagine getting hit a second time as I run away. But then again... my point above probably still applies.
QuoteIf you're out alone in the sands and you come across Big Nasty A which kills you in TWO hits, but usually not ONE... don't you think its realistic you should just die anyway? There are no "injuries" in this game persay, but when you get hit for HORRENDOUS damage upon your leg and you RUN AWAY from a Mek.....? Or an arm? Or your wrist?
BUT...the damage is subjective...even if the message is not. Not all Horrendous is created equal and neither are all PCs.
That Horrendous could be 26 damage or 126 damage...If your PC has 125 or more HP, then I doubt very much if 26 damage is considered a huge gaping wound.
As to the change itself, I still have no experience with it but I still hope more is added as a bonus to having a high flee skill...should you live long enough to have it high.
On the other hand, IRL, giant things that could kill you in one bite don't magickally teleport from a league away across the salt flats and start nomming your face.
If you have 125+HP and you get hit for "horrendous" 26 damage then you're probably not worried about another 26 damage hit when you flee.
I was more addressing people who consider being hit once fine, but being hit twice is going to kill them. If thats the case, regardless of your HP totals, then you probably shouldnt be in that situation anyway.
that is my point as well. If you start comparing it to RL, you gotta all sorts of things.
A mek will not be able to sneak up on you only because it's to NW of you, instead of north of you.
I have to agree, the biggest problem I see is surprise Face Noms due to other code limitations not the things which hide.
Quote from: X-D on January 08, 2012, 06:48:51 PM
I have to agree, the biggest problem I see is surprise Face Noms due to other code limitations not the things which hide.
This was my initial concern, but now I'm considering how this is going to make opportunistic kills that much easier by utilizing NPCs to get bonuses on flee-attacks. It'll make killing people a lot easier, anyway, and so areas of the game which are dangerous are going to become even more so.
I dont understand. What do you mean by opportunistic kills? You mean leading soldiers into a fray? Or attacking someone while they're already being attacked by some animal?
Either way ... PCs will remain PCs. They're always dangerous. The other PCs will just have to be this much more wary of it all. It's the Mek situation that concerns me more. But ... eh, that's why when you travel deep in in certain areas, you're always risking your neck. Always, always, always. Before the flee change or after. With a maxed warrior or 0 day new chara.
Edit: Wrong thread, sorry.
After seeing this code take effect, I gotta say, it's preeeeeeetty sweet. Muy gracias for implementing it, and props for the skill in which it was implemented!
Feeling a lot better about this now that staff are tweaking here and there.
I really like this change.
Quote from: Jingo on January 11, 2012, 09:37:03 PM
Feeling a lot better about this now that staff are tweaking here and there.
The "parting shot" sucks for practice training, and trying to limit damage to 2/3rds which is the suggested cutoff point. A surprise, strong hit, then flee, and one or two more free strikes from the enemy character means they can push a character not only past 2/3rds but into the range that HP doesn't recover from.
IC it also plays like a punitive action: the opponent deliberately follows someone who has been hit enough, to try to hit again. It makes no sense in a training environment. It is a code-enforced action that the character may not even want to do.
The one suggestion I can add (and most likely others have mentioned already): make the parting shot toggle-able with Mercy. When Mercy is on, there should be no parting shots.
Quote from: gfair on January 17, 2012, 12:01:42 AM
The one suggestion I can add (and most likely others have mentioned already): make the parting shot toggle-able with Mercy. When Mercy is on, there should be no parting shots.
Agree with either this or a no-save parting shot toggle.
Quote from: Yam on January 17, 2012, 12:08:41 AM
Quote from: gfair on January 17, 2012, 12:01:42 AM
The one suggestion I can add (and most likely others have mentioned already): make the parting shot toggle-able with Mercy. When Mercy is on, there should be no parting shots.
Agree with either this or a no-save parting shot toggle.
Absolutely 100% should be this way.
Quote from: Down Under on January 17, 2012, 12:10:25 AM
Quote from: Yam on January 17, 2012, 12:08:41 AM
Quote from: gfair on January 17, 2012, 12:01:42 AM
The one suggestion I can add (and most likely others have mentioned already): make the parting shot toggle-able with Mercy. When Mercy is on, there should be no parting shots.
Agree with either this or a no-save parting shot toggle.
Absolutely 100% should be this way.
I'd be happy with either suggestion myself but I'd prefer tying it in with mercy. Mercy on, no parting shot. My character should not be forced to try a parting shot on someone if they icly wouldn't do it in a given situation such as sparring. Maybe somebody jumps my char and my char starts kicking their ass but doesn't want to kill them, just beat them down until they run off.
Having a toggle would be fine, but not with the existing mercy code. There are times you might want to take the last shot for a chance to incapacitate someone. In those cases, you want mercy on -and- you want to take the parting shot, as well.
Quote from: Synthesis on January 17, 2012, 01:06:01 AM
Having a toggle would be fine, but not with the existing mercy code. There are times you might want to take the last shot for a chance to incapacitate someone. In those cases, you want mercy on -and- you want to take the parting shot, as well.
Good point. A separate toggle would be a better idea.
Quote from: Bacon on January 17, 2012, 03:04:45 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on January 17, 2012, 01:06:01 AM
Having a toggle would be fine, but not with the existing mercy code. There are times you might want to take the last shot for a chance to incapacitate someone. In those cases, you want mercy on -and- you want to take the parting shot, as well.
Good point. A separate toggle would be a better idea.
(http://www.pressmyday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Thumbs-Up.jpg)
Ummm... having it toggle with mercy would defeat the purpose of being able to train up your flee skill, as would a separate toggle if standard practice was to take it off during training.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on January 17, 2012, 01:12:47 PM
Ummm... having it toggle with mercy would defeat the purpose of being able to train up your flee skill, as would a separate toggle if standard practice was to take it off during training.
What?
Quote from: Synthesis on January 17, 2012, 01:16:32 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on January 17, 2012, 01:12:47 PM
Ummm... having it toggle with mercy would defeat the purpose of being able to train up your flee skill, as would a separate toggle if standard practice was to take it off during training.
What?
The point of adding in the extra attacks was to give a skill test for flee. If the person you're fighting withholds the attacks, there will be no flee contest, so you won't be training flee.
Still, you should have the option of holding the attack if you choose. You can then intentionally train on that if it's what your characters want to work on but not be forced to if it's not something you want to do in different situations.
There's nothing stopping you from telling them in training: I'm going to try to break out of the fight and get away without you hitting me, try and stop me from getting away and take a shot at me if you can.
Quote from: Bacon on January 17, 2012, 01:33:15 PM
Still, you should have the option of holding the attack if you choose. You can then intentionally train on that if it's what your characters want to work on but not be forced to if it's not something you want to do in different situations.
There's nothing stopping you from telling them in training: I'm going to try to break out of the fight and get away without you hitting me, try and stop me from getting away and take a shot at me if you can.
Sure.
Quote from: Morgenes on January 17, 2012, 01:18:11 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on January 17, 2012, 01:16:32 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on January 17, 2012, 01:12:47 PM
Ummm... having it toggle with mercy would defeat the purpose of being able to train up your flee skill, as would a separate toggle if standard practice was to take it off during training.
What?
The point of adding in the extra attacks was to give a skill test for flee. If the person you're fighting withholds the attacks, there will be no flee contest, so you won't be training flee.
Don't see why you just couldn't give the skill test to the act of fleeing instead of trying to not get hit fleeing. And the point is mute if people are too scared to try in a sparring setting.
Quote from: Titania on January 17, 2012, 04:32:14 PM
Quote from: Morgenes on January 17, 2012, 01:18:11 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on January 17, 2012, 01:16:32 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on January 17, 2012, 01:12:47 PM
Ummm... having it toggle with mercy would defeat the purpose of being able to train up your flee skill, as would a separate toggle if standard practice was to take it off during training.
What?
The point of adding in the extra attacks was to give a skill test for flee. If the person you're fighting withholds the attacks, there will be no flee contest, so you won't be training flee.
Don't see why you just couldn't give the skill test to the act of fleeing instead of trying to not get hit fleeing. And the point is mute if people are too scared to try in a sparring setting.
Because there needs to be a consequence to the failure. I assure you that if the skill test was to actually get away or not, there would be a HUGE amount of complaints, and sparring would not be fixed as simply as adding a new mercy flag.
What we need now is a modest delay added to flee. </helpful>
Uh the consequence is that you do not move into the next room?
Quote from: Titania on January 17, 2012, 04:44:09 PM
Uh the consequence is that you do not move into the next room?
Right, and I guarantee if you give people the choice of getting to flee and having a chance at being hit, or not getting to flee, they would choose the former over the latter. But if you really think so, go ahead and start a poll. If the players would rather have a failed flee mean you don't get away and stay in the same room, I'll change it and get rid of the free hit if you do get away.
BUT...just to be clear, this would mean if you have no flee skill, your chances of actually getting away from a fight would be slim to none.
If you had two people fighting each other without the flee skill the only way the combat ends if both disengage, or one goes down.
Give everyone the flee skill.
Quote from: Titania on January 17, 2012, 04:52:42 PM
Give everyone the flee skill.
No, certainly not at a level that would result in significant success.
Quote from: Morgenes on January 17, 2012, 04:53:37 PM
Quote from: Titania on January 17, 2012, 04:52:42 PM
Give everyone the flee skill.
No, certainly not at a level that would result in significant success.
Why not at a capped level. I don't see the problem.
Quote from: Morgenes on January 17, 2012, 04:48:15 PM
Right, and I guarantee if you give people the choice of getting to flee and having a chance at being hit, or not getting to flee, they would choose the former over the latter. But if you really think so, go ahead and start a poll. If the players would rather have a failed flee mean you don't get away and stay in the same room, I'll change it and get rid of the free hit if you do get away.
BUT...just to be clear, this would mean if you have no flee skill, your chances of actually getting away from a fight would be slim to none.
What about, seriously, making flee success depend only partly on the skill, but adding a delay? You're allowing extra hits both ways--scrab hits you, you hit scrab--but not explicitly; you're just spending extra combat rounds there because your flee didn't work out.
Flee skill = 0% ==> 25% chance of fleeing.
Flee skill = 100% ==> 95% chance of fleeing.
Balance it out by adjusting the zero-skill chance of fleeing and the time delay before you can try to flee again.
It's very similar in outcome to what you added, but...well, aside from the time delay, this is what I used to assume the flee skill did. And it reduces or ends the phenomenon of flee-spamming.
Quote from: Titania on January 17, 2012, 04:54:59 PM
Quote from: Morgenes on January 17, 2012, 04:53:37 PM
Quote from: Titania on January 17, 2012, 04:52:42 PM
Give everyone the flee skill.
No, certainly not at a level that would result in significant success.
Why not at a capped level. I don't see the problem.
We see being able to successfully get away from combat as a combat skill, that is inherit to classes that work on combat. As it stands, Armageddon is not a classless system. There are choices you have to make.
If you get the players behind this I would say that unless your guild/subguild provided you the skill, the most you would see a novice skill level.
Everyone gets skinning right? I thought so anyway. Skinning of an animal is not in anyone's instinct.
Running away is, so I think everyone should get the flee skill. Sure merchants and etc would be poor at it and combat characters and rogue characters would be better. But running away is something anyone should be able to do.
I'm not so much against the extra attacks anyway. I am really against not being able to turn it off in sparring and the fact if I did turn it off no one would get better at flee.
Could make it a skillcheck, which if failed, automatically lodges a player complaint against the assailant due to poor RP/staff favouritism/defense nerf.
If you critfail, you instantly die and send a res request for a 'bullshit' death.
Seriously though:
Flee a hit early if it matters so much and wait and see if Morg can come up with a plan. No reason to hassle the guy. Staff aren't changing code to be horrible.
Quote from: Titania on January 17, 2012, 05:01:22 PM
Everyone gets skinning right? I thought so anyway. Skinning of an animal is not in anyone's instinct.
Running away is, so I think everyone should get the flee skill. Sure merchants and etc would be poor at it and combat characters and rogue characters would be better. But running away is something anyone should be able to do.
I'm not so much against the extra attacks anyway. I am really against not being able to turn it off in sparring and the fact if I did turn it off no one would get better at flee.
Everyone has a tiny chance to skin if you aren't trained (no guild or subguild). It is equivalent to about a 1% chance.
You could make the same argument about sneaking, or hiding, or quitting in the wilderness, or backstabbing or hitting someone from behind (sapping).
As it stands EVERYONE can flee. Everyone can't get away from combat without opening themselves up to attack. And personally, I like it that way.
If we changed the code so that the skill test was whether or not you got away and added a delay, I guarantee it would result in FAR more deaths than the code change as implemented.
I like the way flee works now. I wouldn't like a separate toggle because that would be one more thing for me to forget to appropriately turn on and off, and one more thing to get nagged about whether I have it on or off for the purposes of sparring. But I agree that if there was a toggle, it shouldn't be attached to mercy.
Quote from: Morgenes on January 17, 2012, 05:07:56 PM
Quote from: Titania on January 17, 2012, 05:01:22 PM
Everyone gets skinning right? I thought so anyway. Skinning of an animal is not in anyone's instinct.
Running away is, so I think everyone should get the flee skill. Sure merchants and etc would be poor at it and combat characters and rogue characters would be better. But running away is something anyone should be able to do.
I'm not so much against the extra attacks anyway. I am really against not being able to turn it off in sparring and the fact if I did turn it off no one would get better at flee.
Everyone has a tiny chance to skin if you aren't trained (no guild or subguild). It is equivalent to about a 1% chance.
You could make the same argument about sneaking, or hiding, or quitting in the wilderness, or backstabbing or hitting someone from behind (sapping).
As it stands EVERYONE can flee. Everyone can't get away from combat without opening themselves up to attack. And personally, I like it that way.
If we changed the code so that the skill test was whether or not you got away and added a delay, I guarantee it would result in FAR more deaths than the code change as implemented.
Well I have never seen a character without skin skill, even not picking an outdoorsmansly subguild. I guess all warriors get it. I think you are being a little ridiculous comparing sap and backstab to running away. The others if capped low enough I wouldn't care as long as everyone got low capped scan and listen :P.
And, personally I don't it that way. For one reason is that sparring is too dangerous as it is. I almost think we should have a sparring_mode_on flag where damage is capped.
There are plenty of guilds who do not get the skin skill. I think there are only 4 guilds that actually get it.
Ride or forage would be a better skill to use for your argument I think.
My bad, I've been on the same character for two years, haven't really had much chance to check out all the main guilds.
With the exception of not having the choice of whether or not you attempt the parting shot, I like what I've seen with the flee change so far. I also agree with what Morg said about it being a combat skill and more about trying to get away without getting hit than just the ability to try and get away at all.
If we want to go with some realism, I would looooove to see the ability to flee be inversely proportional to the percentage of HP. The closer you are to 100%, the easier it is to get away. The closer, percentage wise, to 0 hp, the harder it is to flee. I would imagine this being an exponential curve that doesn't really pick up until you are getting relatively low. Now, you have the realistic reflection of life.
Max of 105hp:
Below 20-30hp? You have to be hurting pretty bad, and definitely wouldn't be running fast. Have to succeed a check to get away.
Below 15-20hp? Severe pain and blood loss/constant heaving for poison/severely battered body. You can't run, just walk. Have to succeed a higher check.
Below 1-15hp? LOL. You're crawling, barely able to sustain consciousness. Difficult check to escape.
Done.
Yeah right, then everyone would be an assassin.
I like the way it is now, and if you changed it to where if you fail then you stay in the room everyone would die unless they do some major sparring before ever engaging in real combat. The only thing I would like to see is a master flee on a class that gets it at a high level gets some cool thing like kick, and disarm do.
Updated announcement thread, but wanted to throw it here. Based on your feedback, we have changed mercy to behave like nosave, you can specify how you will be merciful.
QuoteSyntax: mercy [status|off|all|kill|flee]
>mercy
You must provide one of the following toggles:
status : Show status of mercy options (this message)
off : Show no mercy!
all : Merciful on all counts.
kill : Will automatically take the killing blow.
flee : Will attack fleeing victims.
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,42567.msg658480.html#new
What's the difference between 'mercy off' and 'mercy kill'?
Quote from: bcw81 on January 17, 2012, 10:35:30 PM
What's the difference between 'mercy off' and 'mercy kill'?
'mercy off' will turn off both 'kill' and 'flee' options, making you take the killing blow and swing at fleeing enemies.
'mercy all' will turn on both, making you withold the killing blow and not swing at fleeing enemies.
'mercy kill' will turn on or off 'mercy kill' depending on what state it was in.
'mercy flee' will turn on or off 'mercy flee' depending on what state it was in.
Quote from: Morgenes on January 17, 2012, 10:38:06 PM
'mercy off' will turn off both 'kill' and 'flee' options, making you take the killing blow and swing at fleeing enemies.
'mercy all' will turn on both, making you withold the killing blow and not swing at fleeing enemies.
'mercy kill' will turn on or off 'mercy kill' depending on what state it was in.
'mercy flee' will turn on or off 'mercy flee' depending on what state it was in.
So, "mercy off; mercy flee" will cause you to try to no-kiddin' kill people who stay, but be merciful to them that run?
> mercy moneychangers
Quote from: brytta.leofa on January 17, 2012, 10:53:13 PM
Quote from: Morgenes on January 17, 2012, 10:38:06 PM
'mercy off' will turn off both 'kill' and 'flee' options, making you take the killing blow and swing at fleeing enemies.
'mercy all' will turn on both, making you withold the killing blow and not swing at fleeing enemies.
'mercy kill' will turn on or off 'mercy kill' depending on what state it was in.
'mercy flee' will turn on or off 'mercy flee' depending on what state it was in.
So, "mercy off; mercy flee" will cause you to try to no-kiddin' kill people who stay, but be merciful to them that run?
> mercy moneychangers
Sort of a "Get out of here or we'll do this the hard way!" thing.
Nice! Slick bit of code.
Sweet. Now I like the flee change completely. 8)
Thanks for giving us the option.
Two thumbs up!
QuoteIf you had two people fighting each other without the flee skill the only way the combat ends if both disengage, or one goes down.
Sorry for the bit of derail.
But that reminded me of years ago before disengage went in. I don't remember if I was playing Byn or Winrothol...But we were out in the forest and staff animated a halfling...fun ensued...people running all over the place. Eventually everybody was pretty scattered, but two PCs found the halfling and went to engage, sadly, the keyword choices used meant they ended up fighting each other...and BOTH too tired to flee.
The emotes and shouts of help as they were slowly killing each other, helpless to end the combat was priceless...My PC laughed for some time before rescuing one and fleeing himself.
So, anyway, there is a third way, assuming a third PC is around with the right skills.
Snicker...old times.
Thanks Morg! Awesomely quick response and code fix :o
That was an elegant solution, speedily executed. Thank you, Morgenes.
Quote from: X-D on January 18, 2012, 11:16:07 AM
QuoteIf you had two people fighting each other without the flee skill the only way the combat ends if both disengage, or one goes down.
Sorry for the bit of derail.
But that reminded me of years ago before disengage went in. I don't remember if I was playing Byn or Winrothol...But we were out in the forest and staff animated a halfling...fun ensued...people running all over the place. Eventually everybody was pretty scattered, but two PCs found the halfling and went to engage, sadly, the keyword choices used meant they ended up fighting each other...and BOTH too tired to flee.
The emotes and shouts of help as they were slowly killing each other, helpless to end the combat was priceless...My PC laughed for some time before rescuing one and fleeing himself.
So, anyway, there is a third way, assuming a third PC is around with the right skills.
Snicker...old times.
The bald, burly Bynner chops at the tall, muscular Bynner's leg, nicking him.
The tall, muscular Bynner bludgeons the bald, burly Bynner on his leg.
The tall, muscular Bynner shouts, in sirihish:
"I CAN'T QUIT YOU."
Quote from: Morgenes on January 17, 2012, 10:38:06 PM
Quote from: bcw81 on January 17, 2012, 10:35:30 PM
What's the difference between 'mercy off' and 'mercy kill'?
'mercy off' will turn off both 'kill' and 'flee' options, making you take the killing blow and swing at fleeing enemies.
'mercy all' will turn on both, making you withold the killing blow and not swing at fleeing enemies.
'mercy kill' will turn on or off 'mercy kill' depending on what state it was in.
'mercy flee' will turn on or off 'mercy flee' depending on what state it was in.
In essence:
'mercy kill' off + 'mercy flee' off = 'mercy off'
and
'mercy kill' on + 'mercy flee' on = 'mercy all'
Is this something which might lead to confusion?
Also, I am hoping that a player cannot toggle mercy settings incorrectly:
i.e.
A player might toggle 'mercy all' and then toggle 'mercy kill' off - this basically defeats the purpose of 'mercy all' and might be a dangerous situation to have, especially if the said player had 'mercy kill' off in advance, and then toggled 'mercy all' - he might think he's gonna be showing mercy in death blows, but he might not be aware of the previous mercy settings he's made via 'mercy kill' toggle......
I think if we're gonna have two individual toggles for KILL and FLEE - then we can do away with the two blanket toggles - purely for the sake of player safety and to avoid accidental deaths.
Giving 4 separate mercy toggles is gonna lead to confusion, especially with newbies.
Quote from: Calavera on January 18, 2012, 01:42:29 PM
Quote from: X-D on January 18, 2012, 11:16:07 AM
QuoteIf you had two people fighting each other without the flee skill the only way the combat ends if both disengage, or one goes down.
Sorry for the bit of derail.
But that reminded me of years ago before disengage went in. I don't remember if I was playing Byn or Winrothol...But we were out in the forest and staff animated a halfling...fun ensued...people running all over the place. Eventually everybody was pretty scattered, but two PCs found the halfling and went to engage, sadly, the keyword choices used meant they ended up fighting each other...and BOTH too tired to flee.
The emotes and shouts of help as they were slowly killing each other, helpless to end the combat was priceless...My PC laughed for some time before rescuing one and fleeing himself.
So, anyway, there is a third way, assuming a third PC is around with the right skills.
Snicker...old times.
The bald, burly Bynner chops at the tall, muscular Bynner's leg, nicking him.
The tall, muscular Bynner bludgeons the bald, burly Bynner on his leg.
The tall, muscular Bynner shouts, in sirihish:
"I CAN'T QUIT YOU."
Hahahaha.
Correction to my earlier post - I notice that Mercy All and Mercy Off do override the individual toggles - its all good - I panicked prematurely!
It seems pretty convoluted and more complicated than it was. I'll probably just stick with "mercy on" and "mercy off." If "on" isn't an option anymore, and has been replaced with "all" I'll do that, or off.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 18, 2012, 05:30:14 PM
It seems pretty convoluted and more complicated than it was. I'll probably just stick with "mercy on" and "mercy off." If "on" isn't an option anymore, and has been replaced with "all" I'll do that, or off.
I left 'mercy on' as an undocumented feature for people used to the old way. It does the same as 'mercy all'
Quote from: Morgenes on January 18, 2012, 07:10:39 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on January 18, 2012, 05:30:14 PM
It seems pretty convoluted and more complicated than it was. I'll probably just stick with "mercy on" and "mercy off." If "on" isn't an option anymore, and has been replaced with "all" I'll do that, or off.
I left 'mercy on' as an undocumented feature for people used to the old way. It does the same as 'mercy all'
Yay, thanks Morgenes!
Staff pwnz.
I had no no problems with it until now. I have changed my mind. Every character should get the flee skill at least to some degree with this change.
Every character can attempt the flee skill. If you need flee, you should play a guild/subguild that gets it. I understand you disagree but this matter has already been decided.
If you do notice any bugs, feel free to toss it into the request tool for review!