Discuss pending change to flee from Staff Announcements

[RogueGunslinger]

How is that any harsher than Backstab > dead. Or Sap > dead. Or Random mek walks into room > dead. Or warrior bashes you > dead.

If anything I'd argue that taking a shiv to the kidneys would mean you shouldn't be running at all. No offense but I'm happy for this change because of all you spam-fleeing bastards who get away with 1 hp.

[Nyr]

1. Groups of characters become immensely more powerful. Force multiplier. It's my opinion that gank squads, whether comprised of PCs or NPC soldiers just became that much more awesome (something they really didn't need). If you have five people after you chances are that one can bash you.

Groups of characters were already a force multiplier.  One could bash you before.

2. Half-giants and dwarves (and bahamets) just became immensely more powerful. As mentioned previously, strength totally tips the balance for this change. Did they really need this? I'm entirely unconvinced. I understand armageddon is not about PVP balance - but we're loading one side of the scale entirely too much.

Morgenes stated earlier on the first page that more goes into this than the flee skill.  Having high strength doesn't mean jack if you can't hit someone in the first place.

3. Guilds without flee skill - Your abilities, utility and role in the game world have just changed (read: diminished) because apparently you have no familiarity with how to escape conflict... even if you are a DND rogue type guild. This is patently ridiculous. Anyone in game, regardless of class, should have the ability to get to say apprentice or journeyman flee. It's bad enough you could barely escape subdues before, now you're going to get hit in the back anytime you try to perform a hit and run.. even if that is your prerogative as a character and should be the #1 thing you would look out for.

Not quite.  Now you are going to have an attempt from your opponent(s) to hit you.  You can still flee even if you don't have the skill, and more does go into the equation than the presence of the skill or its level as indicated by Morg on the first page here.

4. Increased barrier to entry for new players.

I don't know that this is valid.

[Iiyola]

How is that any harsher than Backstab > dead. Or Sap > dead. Or Random mek walks into room > dead. Or warrior bashes you > dead.

If anything I'd argue that taking a shiv to the kidneys would mean you shouldn't be running at all. No offense but I'm happy for this change because of all you spam-fleeing bastards who get away with 1 hp.

Cause

backstab - > almost dead -> flee

WILL give me a chance to survive.

Not with a hit which may be reeling me.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm just saying all those instances you are saying will be extra harsh, already have an instance of simply killing you outright. It's only going change a very small scenario where a character who isn't good at fleeing wont be able to get away with incredibly low health. As they probably shouldn't be. Now flee actually has a purpose as a skill, instead of a free get out of jail card for any situation where you character might die.

[Iiyola]

I'm just saying all those instances you are saying will be extra harsh, already have an instance of simply killing you outright. It's only going change a very small scenario where a character who isn't good at fleeing wont be able to get away with incredibly low health. As they probably shouldn't be. Now flee actually has a purpose as a skill, instead of a free get out of jail card for any situation where you character might die.

You're making it sound as if everyone is looking for a way to search out this possibly lethal encounter.

That's not always the case.

Sometimes it can be simply some one little thing you're wearing which other NPC's may find attractive to kill you for. And sometimes it's not easy to find out if this item is or isn't acceptable.

Unless you wanna die. Apparently.

[Nyr]

4. Increased barrier to entry for new players.

I don't know that this is valid.

Actually checked numbers on the past month.  Accounts had to be created within the past month and a PC had to die on the account.  Then I checked runlogs to see if they had used the flee command; I then checked to see if that was associated with how they died.

1 used the flee command prior to dying in the room they used the flee command in.  This would indicate that they did not flee successfully.  Regardless of the system change, it would not have affected this newbie; failure to flee does not mean any attempt at an attack from the opponent.
1 used the flee command a few times prior to dying in a room far away from the room they used the flee command in.  This would indicate that they did flee successfully.  They did not try to flee from the thing that did eventually kill them.  We cannot extrapolate on why.  Yes, perhaps they may have died instead in the room they fled from--but perhaps not.

[Twilight]

Increased complexity is also a barrier to entry.  One that is not easily analyzed by your data mining ways.

[Delirium]

I think you guys are making a big deal out of nothing.

Assassins, bahamets, mekillots, and other big baddies should be deadly to encounter. "LOL I can just run" is not really a valid mindset.

[Morgenes]

Really, increased complexity?  Ok, hold your hands up if you did not play a game like D&D or other RPG before this game that had some kind of attack of opportunity mechanic.

Edited to add:
Armageddon is a complex game, we feel this is a needed and balanced change, we are sorry if you disagree.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm just saying all those instances you are saying will be extra harsh, already have an instance of simply killing you outright. It's only going change a very small scenario where a character who isn't good at fleeing wont be able to get away with incredibly low health. As they probably shouldn't be. Now flee actually has a purpose as a skill, instead of a free get out of jail card for any situation where you character might die.

You're making it sound as if everyone is looking for a way to search out this possibly lethal encounter.

That's not always the case.

Sometimes it can be simply some one little thing you're wearing which other NPC's may find attractive to kill you for. And sometimes it's not easy to find out if this item is or isn't acceptable.

Unless you wanna die. Apparently.

Death by NPC is almost always the players fault. If you live in the most dangerous place in the game don't blame the code for your death.

You seem to be missing my original point entirely. Which is that things like bash, backstab, high-strength pc's, reel code, aren't any more powerful with this change. Those things already have a chance of killing you outright. So what if now it's a 85% chance instead of 82% chance. You can avoid that the situation all together by just playing intelligently. ESPECIALLY in the realm of NPC's. And if you're complaining about the realm of PC's there's a wealth of roleplay options open to keep you safe, if you're finding yourself inept at understanding how to codedly survive the pvp "metagame".

I think you guys are making a big deal out of nothing.

Assassins, bahamets, mekillots, and other big baddies should be deadly to encounter. "LOL I can just run" is not really a valid mindset.

Exactly.

[Nyr]

Increased complexity is also a barrier to entry.  One that is not easily analyzed by your data mining ways.

I don't doubt that, but I doubt that this particular change is a complex one for new players to navigate.  A new player is more likely to be confounded by getting things off of a table than "fleeing because I want to stay alive."

I think you guys are making a big deal out of nothing.

Assassins, bahamets, mekillots, and other big baddies should be deadly to encounter. "LOL I can just run" is not really a valid mindset.

I haven't chimed in much til now because I had to read over the thread and also test several of these scenarios out. 

Yeah, bahamets and mekillots are deadly, no doubt about it...

...and slow.

[Cind]

I think you guys are making a big deal out of nothing.

Assassins, bahamets, mekillots, and other big baddies should be deadly to encounter. "LOL I can just run" is not really a valid mindset.

i kind of feel this way... if you're worried about getting hit one more time and fleeing is looking smarter than continuing the fight, you shouldn't be fighting it in the first place. if you've never fought something firsthand, just ask other players whether someone with no training could hunt it. players, not player, because otherwise you might be asking someone, "Hello, my good man, would you mind telling me the fastest way to kill myself and leave you all my stuff in a known radius where you can look for it?"

[Necro]

Another question:

If a PC is being attacked by multiple opponents, and tries to flee, do they all get a chance to get a free hit in?

Yes. All of them. Two times apiece if they're dual wielding.

<facetiousness> Half-elves should all get flee skill. </facetiousness>

[Necro]

Really, increased complexity?  Ok, hold your hands up if you did not play a game like D&D or other RPG before this game that had some kind of attack of opportunity mechanic.

Edited to add:
Armageddon is a complex game, we feel this is a needed and balanced change, we are sorry if you disagree.

attacks of opportunity in pen and paper are mitigated by feats / rogue mechanics. whereas in armageddon, rogue-guilds don't even seem to get flee. a far cry.

it's easy enough to kill people in this game, and to die accidentally. i am against making it harder to survive, especially in a way that doesn't seem to make sense. and no, data analysis doesn't really provide an accurate picture of how things will play out, your sample size just isn't large enough at this point. anyway, in the long run, my characters won't have a problem smashing the shit out of other chars with this mechanic.. so. hunting just got easier, killing citizen NPCs that flee just got easier, killing PCs just got easier, and surviving some zones in the game just became a lot harder. great.

[Kieandatu]

so. hunting just got easier, killing citizen NPCs that flee just got easier, killing PCs just got easier, and surviving some zones in the game just became a lot harder. great.

I fail to see the downside.

[Nyr]

Really, increased complexity?  Ok, hold your hands up if you did not play a game like D&D or other RPG before this game that had some kind of attack of opportunity mechanic.

Edited to add:
Armageddon is a complex game, we feel this is a needed and balanced change, we are sorry if you disagree.

attacks of opportunity in pen and paper are mitigated by feats / rogue mechanics. whereas in armageddon, rogue-guilds don't even seem to get flee. a far cry.

See above on "other things that affect this."  You can, of course, pick a subguild that has flee.  Or a guild that has flee.  Or rely on other things alluded to previously in order to "successfully" flee.

it's easy enough to kill people in this game, and to die accidentally. i am against making it harder to survive, especially in a way that doesn't seem to make sense. and no, data analysis doesn't really provide an accurate picture of how things will play out, your sample size just isn't large enough at this point. anyway, in the long run, my characters won't have a problem smashing the shit out of other chars with this mechanic.. so. hunting just got easier, killing citizen NPCs that flee just got easier, killing PCs just got easier, and surviving some zones in the game just became a lot harder. great.

Our runlogs only go back so far.  I went back as far as they went.  Sorry, there's going to be no way to satisfy you with more facts.  So your characters won't have problems, hunting is easier, killing citizen NPCs got easier, killing PCs got easier.  The downside:  surviving in some areas may be somewhat more difficult for a few character types.  Sounds like an overall win for everyone, and those that aren't well-equipped to survive in the wilds or in combat will have more difficulty surviving in the wilds and in combat.

[Delirium]

Imagine that!

[Talia]

I remember when the defense "nerf" was going to kill all the PCs. Then there was reel...that was definitely going to kill all the PCs. I seem to recall ride also threatening to kill all the PCs.

Guess what...none of that happened.

Also, on the subject of newbies: I watch newbies constantly. None of our newbies are going to pay any attention to this change or be affected by it at all. Their perception of the game is not going to be adversely affected by code complexity they don't encounter. (The vast majority of new accounts don't ever get into combat with their PCs.) When newbies do get into combat, they're lucky if they know the flee command at all, or have time to try it out when they're encountering their first scrab. Seriously, they're not going to be so OMG flummoxed by this change that they leave the game in droves. Now, you can choose not to believe the staff who actually work with and observe this stuff all the time on this matter, free country and all that jazz...but your disbelief doesn't make your argument legit.

[NOFUN]

Oh no this means I won't be able to sneak backstab flee sneak backstab flee rinse repeat any more

[Morgenes]

We have reviewed rescue and have reduced the delay it imparts to the target of the rescue.

[Delirium]

BONZAI! To the rescue!

edit: i wish it still said that... sometimes. just sometimes.

[Twilight]

I wrote a reply then realized I just pine for "the old days"

I am neutral about the change, I just sometimes wonder about direction in terms of overall code changes.

[Armaddict]

Not quite.  Now you are going to have an attempt from your opponent(s) to hit you.  You can still flee even if you don't have the skill, and more does go into the equation than the presence of the skill or its level as indicated by Morg on the first page here.

And it makes sense for those guilds to never improve at avoiding granting that effect...how?

[Bacon]

I just pine for "the old days"

I just sometimes wonder about direction in terms of overall code changes.

This is kinda where my thoughts go with these changes. The combat system is totally different now than it used to be and I think I liked it better before all these changes, not one of these changes have made playing combat oriented characters -more- fun for me. Just made them harder. Harder is not equal to fun for me personally.

[Delirium]

Not quite.  Now you are going to have an attempt from your opponent(s) to hit you.  You can still flee even if you don't have the skill, and more does go into the equation than the presence of the skill or its level as indicated by Morg on the first page here.

And it makes sense for those guilds to never improve at avoiding granting that effect...how?

Does it make sense for a warrior to never improve at scanning? ... oh wait, there's a subguild for that now.

If you want the skill, grab it in character generation. I'll grant that assassins should get or branch flee, if they don't already. I can't remember.