Discuss pending change to flee from Staff Announcements

[Morgenes]

If you have specific evidence (with timestamps) that shows a mob entering a room and attacking within a half second, please submit a request with your time-stamped log.

All NPCs should have a delay before they can attack after moving, same as PCs.  If they don't, it's a bug and needs to be addressed.  But we don't have anything other than anecdotal evidence of this occurring.

[Yam]

I think it happens when one or more mobs follow another into a room with a PC in it. The first mob into the room suffers movement/attack lag, but its followers do not have lag and can attack immediately. My character's not in the position to test this though so I can't send in any logs.

[Bacon]

If you have specific evidence (with timestamps) that shows a mob entering a room and attacking within a half second, please submit a request with your time-stamped log.

All NPCs should have a delay before they can attack after moving, same as PCs.  If they don't, it's a bug and needs to be addressed.  But we don't have anything other than anecdotal evidence of this occurring.

Wait, you want us to risk our pcs trying to get that to happen to us on purpose so we can give you a log to prove it? Why can't someone on staff load up a char and go test it out? It seems to me it's usually the really dangerous aggro ones that do this sometimes.

[Morgenes]

Wait, you want us to risk our pcs trying to get that to happen to us on purpose so we can give you a log to prove it? Why can't someone on staff load up a char and go test it out? It seems to me it's usually the really dangerous aggro ones that do this sometimes.

Of course, more brainz!

If you have specific sdescs or even types of npcs that you know do this (even information like ones that group up together), please submit them to a request about it.

[Bacon]

Wait, you want us to risk our pcs trying to get that to happen to us on purpose so we can give you a log to prove it? Why can't someone on staff load up a char and go test it out? It seems to me it's usually the really dangerous aggro ones that do this sometimes.

Of course, more brainz!

*laughs*

[Nyr]

I tested an NPC going through a series of scripted movement commands to attack a non-aggressive NPC a few rooms away.  I then switched out of the NPC and went to the room and waited to watch.

It eventually got to the room.

It did go through the same movement lag before attacking.

[Nyr]

I tested an NPC group as well.

Three similar NPCs, all in the same room, were set up to follow one of these NPCs.  I named it Spanky.  One of the followers I named Bill.  I switched into Spanky and ran through movement commands to a non-aggressive NPC a few rooms away.  I switched out of Spanky and into Bill.  As soon as our group got to the target room, I hit "Kill target."  I had to wait.

[Nyr]

I checked out a special attack that is set on a particular NPC that folks may be worried about with this change.   That special attack also will not fire off if the NPC is in a wait state (such as waiting from movement lag).  Note that there is not movement lag inside the room itself, so if (for instance) npcs are breaking off from a "pack" npc due to, say, another script...that is not considered "movement."

I don't mean carru by any of this testing, though.  That's intentional.

[Nyr]

Yeah, so far, nothing I'm finding does an instant attack with no movement lag.

[Bacon]

In my experience, it doesn't happen all the time. Just every now and then. It has been several months since the last time it happened to me. I don't log all the time (only during rpts) and my client doesn't do any sort of timestamp that I know of so I can't be any more helpful about figuring it out.

[Nyr]

Now working on nearby room aggro attack testing with multiple NPCs. 

Yes, it happens quickly. 

No, it is not instantaneous, and is (in fact) exactly comparable to the exact scenarios I described earlier.  It seems faster because you are going apeshit (appropriately) over reading the roomspam of things entering the room.

[valeria]

Thanks for looking into it.  My immediate response when the problem was first noted is that I have seen this happen, where things jump into the room and are immediately attacking my character.  But it has occurred to me that it could be my connection.  Maybe on the server side the mob enters my room and then waits a space to attack me, but on my client side it happens right on top of the other because that's just how I received the packets to my PC.  This might explain why it only happens now and then.

Anyway, next time it happens I'll send a request.  Hopefully you can take my word that I saw it happen instantly.  I'll take your word that a mob test indicates it's just me. 

[musashi]

Nyr ... test it with kryl ...  

Groups of kryl ... *shivers as the nightmares return*

[Bacon]

My immediate response when the problem was first noted is that I have seen this happen, where things jump into the room and are immediately attacking my character.  But it has occurred to me that it could be my connection.  Maybe on the server side the mob enters my room and then waits a space to attack me, but on my client side it happens right on top of the other because that's just how I received the packets to my PC.  This might explain why it only happens now and then.

Yeah, I just had this same thought as well. And thanks for checking it out Nyr.

[Dan]

Nyr ... test it with kryl ...  

Groups of kryl ... *shivers as the nightmares return*

Was just about to send in a request with this. Lost more than one PC... I will send it still.

[Morgenes]

We're also looking at the hunt skill and how npcs use it.  For the record there is a limit to it, however you may have trouble getting to that limit as it stands.

[Nyr]

They all work the same, yes. Text-based games may transmit quickly over the interwebs (comparatively speaking, w/r/t graphical games), but we are talking about a matter of only a handful of seconds.  

Nyr ... test it with kryl ...  

Groups of kryl ... *shivers as the nightmares return*

Was just about to send in a request with this. Lost more than one PC... I will send it still.

I checked out a special attack that is set on a particular NPC that folks may be worried about with this change.   That special attack also will not fire off if the NPC is in a wait state (such as waiting from movement lag).  Note that there is not movement lag inside the room itself, so if (for instance) npcs are breaking off from a "pack" npc due to, say, another script...that is not considered "movement."

I don't mean carru by any of this testing, though.  That's intentional.

I can't really get more specific than this.

Yes, kryl are included in the "they all work the same way."

[Qzzrbl]

No, it is not instantaneous, and is (in fact) exactly comparable to the exact scenarios I described earlier.  It seems faster because you are going apeshit (appropriately) over reading the roomspam of things entering the room.

I'm not so sure about that....

I do recall having an AI agility character get beetle'd after loading my command queue down with "n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n".

Was one of those situations where I was merrily riding northward, wild beetle pops in from the east, attacks, knocks me off my mount, I flee and then spam north and it caught up to me after a couple of rooms and eated mai character.

Though... This was sometime last year, or maybe even the year before, and it may have been caused by lag more than anything.

[Twilight]

I haven't seen the group insta-attack in a couple of years at least.  I think one of the previous code changes a couple of years back that made NPCs respect wait state on their skills actually fixed this as well, or another code change of the same vintage.

The only thing I can think of where if you are quick typing and the NPC might actually have the drop on you code wise is something like:

n
A fast baddie arrives from the west
n
A fast baddie arries from the south
A fast baddie attacks you

Where you are either walking or riding a really slow mount.  Its been at least a year since I experienced that (that long since I rode a slow mount) and it is extremely hard to say for sure what is happening player side without stacked commands.

Edited to add:  There are rare instances when you will encounter an NPC that is running, rather than walking.  This can change the regular dynamic, obviously.

[Dalmeth]

I think it happens when one or more mobs follow another into a room with a PC in it. The first mob into the room suffers movement/attack lag, but its followers do not have lag and can attack immediately. My character's not in the position to test this though so I can't send in any logs.

I haven't seen the group insta-attack in a couple of years at least.  I think one of the previous code changes a couple of years back that made NPCs respect wait state on their skills actually fixed this as well, or another code change of the same vintage.

Yah, this was fixed a long time ago.

As for the "track bug," it refers to those NPCs with special tracking scripts like raptors, Red Desert gith, Red Desert Mantis, and that one certain trained attack tembo associated with an NPC elven tribe that no longer exists.

Occasionally, this script will force an NPC to make several actions at once, even immediately after entering a room.  I had a PC that dealt with raptors regularly for at least two years (RL), and it was fairly common for them to start acting wonky once that tracking script was engaged.   Sometimes they would track immediately after entering a room, seeming to ignore me for a few seconds until they attacked or just attack immediately after entering the room.

Nyr ... test it with kryl ... 

Groups of kryl ... *shivers as the nightmares return*

Not just with groups of kryl, but that one group of kryl.  I had a run in with those years ago, and the followers attacked me all at once.   I'm pretty sure that's been fixed, but if the staff needs to test with that one group, let me know how I can give more detail.

[Delusion]

Popped in a critical game bug request there for the instant attack problem, along with a log.

[Dalmeth]

Gah, I keep skimming through my brain and coming up with more to say.

Yes, kryl are included in the "they all work the same way."

Well, there is one group of kryl set to follow a, "leader," so they may be a subtle modification that was overlooked with previous changes.

[Nyr]

Gah, I keep skimming through my brain and coming up with more to say.

Yes, kryl are included in the "they all work the same way."

Well, there is one group of kryl set to follow a, "leader," so they may be a subtle modification that was overlooked with previous changes.

I checked them too

[Nyr]

No, it is not instantaneous, and is (in fact) exactly comparable to the exact scenarios I described earlier.  It seems faster because you are going apeshit (appropriately) over reading the roomspam of things entering the room.

I'm not so sure about that....

I do recall having an AI agility character get beetle'd after loading my command queue down with "n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n".

Was one of those situations where I was merrily riding northward, wild beetle pops in from the east, attacks, knocks me off my mount, I flee and then spam north and it caught up to me after a couple of rooms and eated mai character.

Though... This was sometime last year, or maybe even the year before, and it may have been caused by lag more than anything.

or it was running and you weren't (or your mount is slow as poop)

[Celest]

After having a very limited experience with the new flee code, I don't think it's that big of a deal, but I do have a few issues with it.

The biggest is that it makes "hard but slow" hitters, like Bahamets, mekillots, half giants, and others much more powerful. I think that the free hit should probably be based on agility or attack speed, because a bahamet being able to rapid-fire a pair of bites at people because they decided to flee right after they were bitten is sort of silly. This may be intended, it may be overlooked, it may not work like this at all, but from my understanding of the code so far this is how it functions, and I think it's not a good way for it to function in terms of IC realism or OOC fun. Something that's incredibly fast and quick attacking should almost always get a free swing, or maybe two, while something that's slow shouldn't always get to bite again right after it threw it's massive weight off balance with a first attack. I also think it would do a lot to make the danger of certain creatures more realistic, because you should be afraid that if you attack a fast creature and have to flee, you might not be able to get away from it without taking a few hits.

The second issue is what someone else said about needing a clearer echo that the attack is because of fleeing. As it is now, it's just another swing.

The third issue I have is that none of the guilds which have flee mention them doing so in the help files, and as such, I can only think of one guild which I know for a fact has flee. Subguilds do, but not actual guilds.

The fourth issue I have might not be an issue at all, but #3 makes it seem like one. However, because I only know of one guild (maybe two) with flee it seems like this is going to make the guilds which are strongest in combat stronger, and the guilds which are the weakest in combat weaker. It seems like flee should be a general skill, like shield use or dual wield or two-handed, and guilds or subguilds should increase the cap to the point where it actually becomes reliable.

Those four issues aside, I actually think the change is better, because it's sort of silly what people can do when they're isolated in 2 rooms and exploit combat delay and flee.