Discuss pending change to flee from Staff Announcements

[Nyr]

Not quite.  Now you are going to have an attempt from your opponent(s) to hit you.  You can still flee even if you don't have the skill, and more does go into the equation than the presence of the skill or its level as indicated by Morg on the first page here.

And it makes sense for those guilds to never improve at avoiding granting that effect...how?

We don't have a completely classless, any-skill system.  You do have to pick and choose, and with that picking and choosing comes the downside:  you may be deficient in some area.  At present, it does make sense and is consistent with our own documentation, at least.  It may not be preferable with regard to your own wishes, though.

[Bacon]

I think it would make sense for assassins to have flee. How else do they survive all the botched sneak attacks to ever get good at it?

[Armaddict]

Not quite.  Now you are going to have an attempt from your opponent(s) to hit you.  You can still flee even if you don't have the skill, and more does go into the equation than the presence of the skill or its level as indicated by Morg on the first page here.

And it makes sense for those guilds to never improve at avoiding granting that effect...how?

We don't have a completely classless, any-skill system.  You do have to pick and choose, and with that picking and choosing comes the downside:  you may be deficient in some area.  At present, it does make sense and is consistent with our own documentation, at least.  It may not be preferable with regard to your own wishes, though.

Right.  However, more than rangers get ride, because it makes sense for everyone to be able to ride.  It's required for a mode of transportation.  Likewise, anyone, given the means, can learn to pilot, because it's a mode of transportation.  Again, likewise, it seems this should be the same idea, because blaming a classless system for forcing more than half of the base classes to take free hits (note:  Free hits, not free attacks, because that's how this will end up due to the relatively defenseless nature of those guilds in the absence of twinking) should require a -little- bit more of a defense then 'We don't have a classless system.'

Correct, there are subguilds with flee.  Unfortunately, they also granted flee in a different circumstance of what flee was needed for.  From subguild 'thief':

They are able to approach their targets quietly as well as to escape in a hurry since they often botch their attempts.

It seems odd that the subguild logic for escape there is the same as well...hmm.  Most of the classes that don't have flee.

Likewise, before you just accuse people of saying that they're crying because of changes and exaggerating, do try and realize that this is what you ask for.  Feedback.  In this case, some people dislike the change altogether, and some of us are saying that with a change like this, you may actually have to look backwards at past progress made and revamp it to fit the changes you just made.  Games of all genres do it all the time, because it's required.  This change, in particular, changes the utility and necessity of a skill that no one -really- cared about not having before, so they didn't throw up a fuss.  But you just made it necessary, whicih means people who should have it...should have it.

[Naruto]

Not quite.  Now you are going to have an attempt from your opponent(s) to hit you.  You can still flee even if you don't have the skill, and more does go into the equation than the presence of the skill or its level as indicated by Morg on the first page here.

And it makes sense for those guilds to never improve at avoiding granting that effect...how?

Does it make sense for a warrior to never improve at scanning? ... oh wait, there's a subguild for that now.

If you want the skill, grab it in character generation. I'll grant that assassins should get or branch flee, if they don't already. I can't remember.

They don't.. And apparently will never be..

On the other hand, suggesting people to have a guild or subguild with flee would kinda kill the variety..

Really, increased complexity?  Ok, hold your hands up if you did not play a game like D&D or other RPG before this game that had some kind of attack of opportunity mechanic.

Edited to add:
Armageddon is a complex game, we feel this is a needed and balanced change, we are sorry if you disagree.

And as I already stated, in DND everyone can take the feat MOBILITY, which grants you an extra +4 AC against AoO in DnD-3.5 or makes you ignore all AoO in DnD-3. Please don't say DnD has the AoO, if you're not balancing it with something like the feat mobility.

[RogueGunslinger]

This isn't DnD. It's a comparison, not an exact replica.

[Naruto]

This isn't DnD. It's a comparison, not an exact replica.

Yep!

[Bacon]

Having seen it I think there should be more of an echo in there. Right now it's like this:

Code Select Expand

The typical-looking dwarf attempts to flee!

You slash the typical-looking dwarf on the head!

The typical-looking dwarf flees, heading east!

I'm thinking maybe something like this:

Code Select Expand

The typical-looking dwarf attempts to flee!

You attack him as he tries to escape!
You slash the typical-looking dwarf on the head!

The typical-looking dwarf flees, heading east!

I haven't seen it from the other point of view yet but similar echo to them about being attacked as they try to escape. And maybe a delay in there between the escape attempt and the attempt at the parting attack so one can disengage between them to prevent attempting a parting shot if they want to.

[Romy]

I don't know that this is valid.

Yeah, it is. I started in late 2010, and just came back after being frustrated to play my current pc.

[zakattack]

And as I already stated, in DND everyone can take the feat MOBILITY, which grants you an extra +4 AC against AoO in DnD-3.5 or makes you ignore all AoO in DnD-3. Please don't say DnD has the AoO, if you're not balancing it with something like the feat mobility.

The comparison to Mobility or DnD in general isn't particularly valid since in 3.5/Pathfinder you can withdraw as a full round action and the square you started in is considered un-threatened (for the most part), hence no AoO during a withdraw unless you opponent has some form of reach, from size or large weapon. (See http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#withdraw) However, if you insist, I would imagine that a similar function to Mobility is likely already factored into the roll based on the skill of your character whether it be defensive bonus, agility or some other factor. Get more skilled, now you have mobility.

Furthermore, you say "Everyone can take the feat Mobility" (thus sacrificing something else that may be important for their character) which equates to "Everyone can take a subguild that has flee".


Unfortunately, I haven't been able to play the game for some time, but look forward to seeing the new changes over the past few months.

Does this also applies to NPCs that flee?

[Romy]

Also, on the subject of newbies: I watch newbies constantly. None of our newbies are going to pay any attention to this change or be affected by it at all. Their perception of the game is not going to be adversely affected by code complexity they don't encounter.

Okay.

[Nyr]

I don't know that this is valid.

Yeah, it is. I started in late 2010, and just came back after being frustrated to play my current pc.

The person in question that I was responding to was detailing that this particular change would be deemed a detriment to newbies.  I was referring to a very specific thing, this code in particular.  What was the particular reason that you took a hiatus/stopped playing/quit (provided it is not too specific)?

[Naruto]

The comparison to Mobility or DnD in general isn't particularly valid since in 3.5/Pathfinder you can withdraw as a full round action and the square you started in is considered un-threatened (for the most part), hence no AoO during a withdraw unless you opponent has some form of reach, from size or large weapon. (See http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#withdraw) However, if you insist, I would imagine that a similar function to Mobility is likely already factored into the roll based on the skill of your character whether it be defensive bonus, agility or some other factor. Get more skilled, now you have mobility.

So? Using withdraw still may give AoO to your opponents. It doesn't negate all of it. Couldn't get your point there. But I saw how skilled you are, thanks for your suggestion.  

[Jingo]

Feedback is in order.

New rescue buff is cool. I would like a guard like ability that will allow friendlies to assist their fleeing comrades.

Staff NEEDS to make an adjustment to sparring. I will be refusing to spar some characters until then. This is not an over reaction.

Staff NEEDS to do something about the great big bad mobs that can two-hit kill you. Unless it's changed recently, I've never encountered a bahamet that was slow on the draw. A simple echo that a big something something inhabits the diagonal square would suffice.

Has npc track been fixed yet? If not then it NEEDS to be fixed. A lethal new addition like this while a lethal bug remains just baffles me.

[Jingo]

Edit: Accidental double post.

[Nyr]

Feedback is in order.

New rescue buff is cool. I would like a guard like ability that will allow friendlies to assist their fleeing comrades.

Staff NEEDS to make an adjustment to sparring. I will be refusing to spar some characters until then. This is not an over reaction.

This might be a bit of an overreaction.  Fleeing before you get down to that point is certainly an option, and we don't particularly have any "sparring" to make an adjustment for.  It's just regular combat with sparring weapons.  It is your choice to refuse to spar, of course.  There is not a guarantee that a character will hit yours if you flee and have no flee skill, there are other things taken into account.

Staff NEEDS to do something about the great big bad mobs that can two-hit kill you. Unless it's changed recently, I've never encountered a bahamet that was slow on the draw. A simple echo that a big something something inhabits the diagonal square would suffice.

Like account for the fact that it is slow?  Already mentioned above.  Bahamets in particular may be faster-moving than a mekillot, but still slower than the average PC.

Has npc track been fixed yet? If not then it NEEDS to be fixed. A lethal new addition like this while a lethal bug remains just baffles me.

I'm not sure I follow.

[Nyr]

And I do get that you feel more needs to be done, I am just offering the devil's advocate counterpoints.

[Synthesis]

Staff NEEDS to do something about the great big bad mobs that can two-hit kill you. Unless it's changed recently, I've never encountered a bahamet that was slow on the draw. A simple echo that a big something something inhabits the diagonal square would suffice.

I just moseyed past a couple of big-bad-1-hit-kill-wonders that didn't manage to attack me.

Maybe you just need a faster set of legs, brah.

[Delirium]

"... and that was when, suddenly, agility became an important stat once more."

(i'm joking. mostly.)

[Romy]

I don't know that this is valid.

Yeah, it is. I started in late 2010, and just came back after being frustrated to play my current pc.

The person in question that I was responding to was detailing that this particular change would be deemed a detriment to newbies.  I was referring to a very specific thing, this code in particular.  What was the particular reason that you took a hiatus/stopped playing/quit (provided it is not too specific)?

I don't know detriment. Sorry my english is not very good.

I stopped playing because I died so many times and did not understand how things worked, and combat seemed too fast and too hard. I even followed advice and joined a clan, only to be killed while sparring. I guess just bad luck is why I quit. I decided to come back to just try one more time.

[Jingo]

Staff NEEDS to do something about the great big bad mobs that can two-hit kill you. Unless it's changed recently, I've never encountered a bahamet that was slow on the draw. A simple echo that a big something something inhabits the diagonal square would suffice.

I just moseyed past a couple of big-bad-1-hit-kill-wonders that didn't manage to attack me.

Maybe you just need a faster set of legs, brah.

Last time I was killed by one, it was mid-emote. I'll admit that better Arm-Fu would probably have saved me. I'm also certain that I looked in all directions before the emote.

Has npc track been fixed yet? If not then it NEEDS to be fixed. A lethal new addition like this while a lethal bug remains just baffles me.

I'm not sure I follow.

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,7381.msg70561.html#msg70561

X-D brings it up here. It's been a longstanding issue. I lost one of my favorite characters to a raptor that tracked her through leagues of magickal darkness.

[Bacon]

Um, just checking but mercy does factor in on this parting shot doesn't it?

[Nyr]

It's a complicated issue that really is less simple than it being "bugged."  It is the way it is because it is preferable to other methods we have used (and tried) in the past.

[Wolfsong]

Um, just checking but mercy does factor in on this parting shot doesn't it?

Don't think so - I've seen some nasty flee hits with mercy on.

[Nyr]

Um, just checking but mercy does factor in on this parting shot doesn't it?

Don't think so - I've seen some nasty flee hits with mercy on.

It should only apply if the hit was going to kill them.  "showing mercy, you withhold the killing blow," etc.

[Lizzie]

The only "concern" I'd have to the new flee, would be regarding the NPC mobs that show up and start swinging without the requisite movement delay. Sometimes it takes only that one .5-second "tick" for a player to understand that something is about to happen and he has to react, somehow.

And if a rampaging raptor shows up in your "room" it only makes sense that you would at -least- have enough time to shout, in northern-accented sirihish, "Shit!" before the claws start slashing.

Sometimes though, the mobs don't give you that chance. And yet, YOU have to wait that tick, when it's your turn to show up. Tregils insta-flee. But if a tregil became aggro, and you walked east, and the tregil from the north walked south to you, you would -not- be able to insta-flee. You'd have to wait for your movement delay from walking east was finished. The tregil doesn't have to abide by that same coded rule.

So I'd like to see the mobs have to abide by the same code that players do, with regards to insta-attacking, and insta-fleeing.

Other than that, I don't see any "issue" with flee. It's a risky skill, you're using it because you have already put yourself at risk. So I'm good with the changes.