Now I don't know, but just about every character I have lands in a clan at some point or other. They do tend to spend time as indies, and there have been numerous interesting small plots that have developed as a result of this, and I do so like interacting with other PCs that I am hesitant to join a clan, at least right away, as restrictions and schedules kind of get to me, but that's just me, and I do almost always land in one, for better or worse... Then maybe end up indie again, and if they survive long enough, maybe another clan. I don't frequently see unclanned characters who aren't seeking a clan, but I don't see everything. I have my minor bitches about clans, but mine don't matter because I'm a sucker for them and I'm a newer player. So instead of crippling independents (or murdering their loved ones, or burning down their apartment building, or slamming their fingers in a door (wait that last one is literally crippling), what are things that maybe are important considerations that could make clans more appealing to those who, for whatever reason, will not join a clan, ever?
I can tell you easily what makes clans UNAPPEALING to me, in order, probably..
1) Schedules - I hate them. I don't want to be told that it's fighting atop an inix spartime when there's like 20 interesting people at the bar. Actually, unless more than two people agree that this is what needs to be done (with the leader having right of veto), there should be absolutely no schedule. Beside, training and sparring 10 hours a day for 6 rl months is not going to do you much good when you're now getting out of your compound to go and face 20 Tuluki Legions all targeting your assassin PC wannabe Sergeant.
2) Low pay - We discussed that a lot. Not being able to afford a pinch of spice or a mug of ale more than once every 2 days while all of my other indie buddies are getting friends and partners out the cabooze by buying them drinks and spice all over the place is simply frustrating.
3) Being stuck inside the walls - That is very annoying to me, especially when you're a veteran and you play a lot.. If there's nobody in your clan from 10am to 7pm and you're stuck hitting a dummy or sitting by yourself forever at the Tooth, sorry buddy, but I'm going to ditch your clan and go kill me some hawks or forage and then roll myself in the mountain of spice I can now afford.
... That's about it, I think.. Without the above three, I can easily deal wit hthe rest.
But what about realism, Malkimus Prime?
Quote from: Zoan on January 26, 2014, 05:21:53 PM
But what about realism, Malkimus Prime?
Schedule, low pay and being stuck inside the walls is what every students like myself get to rp on a daily basis.
Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedoooooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! *kicks Zoan in the gortok-filled pit (also known as an Australian toilet)*
POSSUM ATTACK POSSUM ATTACK
Quote from: Malken on January 26, 2014, 05:19:49 PM
I can tell you easily what makes clans UNAPPEALING to me, in order, probably..
1) Schedules - I hate them. I don't want to be told that it's fighting atop an inix spartime when there's like 20 interesting people at the bar. Actually, unless more than two people agree that this is what needs to be done (with the leader having right of veto), there should be absolutely no schedule. Beside, training and sparring 10 hours a day for 6 rl months is not going to do you much good when you're now getting out of your compound to go and face 20 Tuluki Legions all targeting your assassin PC wannabe Sergeant.
2) Low pay - We discussed that a lot. Not being able to afford a pinch of spice or a mug of ale more than once every 2 days while all of my other indie buddies are getting friends and partners out the cabooze by buying them drinks and spice all over the place is simply frustrating.
3) Being stuck inside the walls - That is very annoying to me, especially when you're a veteran and you play a lot.. If there's nobody in your clan from 10am to 7pm and you're stuck hitting a dummy or sitting by yourself forever at the Tooth, sorry buddy, but I'm going to ditch your clan and go kill me some hawks or forage and then roll myself in the mountain of spice I can now afford.
... That's about it, I think.. Without the above three, I can easily deal wit hthe rest.
Pay should be increased significantly. Clan salary should be more about a means to keep plots running and less about what someone in that position would be "reasonably" paid, since there are no standards for what reasonable pay for independents is. Clan pay should basically be (a magic number that staff come up with and say that an average indie should be making) minus (the cost of the free food, water, storage, housing etc given to you by the clan). Failing that, employer stipends should be increased to encourage more giving of bonuses (or theft from the employer by the employees...).
The being stuck inside the walls rule is an enforcement of the idea that outside the walls are dangerous, and it's only really enforced on clan members that don't need to be outside given their position. Hunters don't get rules like this - soldiers, aides, crafters and such do. That said, either the outside needs to be made more dangerous or clans should be encouraged to be a bit more careful about applying this rule (for example, only applying it to people who just joined recently and haven't proved themselves yet).
As for schedules, I think they should be fluid in how and when they apply. They basically should not apply if you're the only PC in your clan logged in.
It's only Australian if the gortoks are poisonous.
Back on topic: The only small thing which bothers me about clans is the low pay, and only generally for the first year or two IC of a character's life. After that, sids become less and less important as time goes on.
I agree, it's the pay that's the issue with me.
Quote from: Cutthroat on January 26, 2014, 05:34:17 PM
Pay should be increased significantly. Clan salary should be more about a means to keep plots running and less about what someone in that position would be "reasonably" paid, since there are no standards for what reasonable pay for independents is. Clan pay should basically be (a magic number that staff come up with and say that an average indie should be making) minus (the cost of the free food, water, storage, housing etc given to you by the clan). Failing that, employer stipends should be increased to encourage more giving of bonuses (or theft from the employer by the employees...).
Yup, agree with everything you said.
Quote from: Cutthroat on January 26, 2014, 05:34:17 PM
The being stuck inside the walls rule is an enforcement of the idea that outside the walls are dangerous, and it's only really enforced on clan members that don't need to be outside given their position. Hunters don't get rules like this - soldiers, aides, crafters and such do. That said, either the outside needs to be made more dangerous or clans should be encouraged to be a bit more careful about applying this rule (for example, only applying it to people who just joined recently and haven't proved themselves yet).
I also agree that there are certain roles that this is definitely not proper for (like if you join the militia, you are expected to stay inside, and you know that as a player, so extras should be found for such a role to tip the balance a little.. Encouraging players to be play criminals and helping them to achieve so in both cities would help greatly..)
I also agree that leaders should be more flexible with the guy they just hired. Don't go giving them your best leftover armors on day one and then curse when they go outside the wall and die, but on the other hand, if the guy you just hired looks and sound like he knows what he's doing, give him a little leeway, especially if he comes at a no risk discount (the guy already has armor, a mount and sounds like he knows "stuff), so even if he were to go out and die, you're not losing anything but a recruit that you probably would have lost in other ways, anyway.
Quote from: Cutthroat on January 26, 2014, 05:34:17 PM
As for schedules, I think they should be fluid in how and when they apply. They basically should not apply if you're the only PC in your clan logged in.
I also agree with you as well! (That and with a little freedom and trust that I won't do something stupid, you will have in me an happy peon who will probably stick around and become a leader of your clan eventually)
Sounds like you're the kind of leader I'm looking for when I (rarely these days) join a clan! What's your clan? ;)
HAH.
But yes. If I log on and am in a clan and I can't find anybody else, you're damn right I'm not going to sit around in the compound/fortress/what the fuck ever. It's just not going to happen.
Excuse it by saying you're on street patrol, escorting a vnpc, whatever, should anybody ask, and you stopped into the tavern for a quick drink to relax after a trying day. I know that excuse isn't applicable to all clans, but sometimes you just need a small example to think out of the box.
The restricting schedules are insane. I think yes, they should be more fluid, but at the same time, I never had any issues with the Byn, for example, with schedules, not finding people, et cetera. I know that can't be said of every clan, but they're a great example to the counter argument of how a schedule can and does work well.
Byn pay on the other hand? Realistic. Maddening, but realistic and acceptable to/for me. Other clans? I would hope they pay better, while giving the usual perks (being backed by a merchant/noble house so if you fuck up, or someone fucks you up, you can be protected, use their influence, et cetera).
Well...here is what I think.
First off...the clans have become TO much the same.
Mistake #1 IMO is that almost all clans have at least tried to put in a Byn style schedule. I think this is a mistake. The Byn SHOULD have that schedule, in fact, if I join the Byn it is one of the reasons to join. Because you know you have these times to work on these things and hang with your clannies.
I think that All the rest the clans should drop them. I would however keep a short simple schedule that promotes some get together...say 2 days a week. In Salarr for instance, Ocandra Dawn to early afternoon Sparring ring free for all...be there! Waleuk All day, FIVE C's...Cooking, compound cleaning, crafting and carousing! (carousing of course means drinking)
I think that people need to work harder in returning the clan to a unique setting.
Next...leaving the gates. Some clans have to have that rule...but some do not.
Pay...All clans have too low pay still.
Percs...Well, that is up to the leader PCs...but maybe try and remember they are the best way to keep good players.
Life oath...All three GMH should get rid* of it, as well as timed contracts past the recruit phase.
* Life oath in a GMH should carry heavy duty percs, clan apartment, high pay, special gear etc, but should be reserved for really special PCs who want to give it and deserve it.
Noble houses should mostly ditch life oath and go to contract....but switch to raising ranks and all other percs do require life oath.
Militia/legian...Sorry, I see life oath as needed there.
There is a few other things...but I am eating.
To continue.
If I had my way, I would add "Clan Archetype" To all clan docs and make sure that the Sponsered roles of those clans knew to not only stick to it but make sure they hired people that fit, rather then the current method of "get anything with a pulse and hope."
Like, Kadius, the Archetypical Kadian would be Ramirez Sean Connery, Highlander, Well dressed, well spoken a bit snobbish and deadly.
Salarr, Thor and crew, from the movie. Love to fight and party, really nice equipment, braggarts.
Kurac Just fucking gangsta..Anything goes as long as you obey our few simple rules. Archetype, the two cartel assassins from breaking bad.
Byn...Well, the Byn is already doing a good job on that, partly I think because the Byn docs do spell out what they are exactly.
Most the noble houses do a good job there too...though Some could use a little tightening of the docs in that area.
Legion..The elves at Helms deep.
Militia Uruk Hai at Helms deep.
Quote from: boog on January 26, 2014, 06:08:11 PM
HAH.
But yes. If I log on and am in a clan and I can't find anybody else, you're damn right I'm not going to sit around in the compound/fortress/what the fuck ever. It's just not going to happen.
Excuse it by saying you're on street patrol, escorting a vnpc, whatever, should anybody ask, and you stopped into the tavern for a quick drink to relax after a trying day. I know that excuse isn't applicable to all clans, but sometimes you just need a small example to think out of the box.
The restricting schedules are insane. I think yes, they should be more fluid, but at the same time, I never had any issues with the Byn, for example, with schedules, not finding people, et cetera. I know that can't be said of every clan, but they're a great example to the counter argument of how a schedule can and does work well.
Byn pay on the other hand? Realistic. Maddening, but realistic and acceptable to/for me. Other clans? I would hope they pay better, while giving the usual perks (being backed by a merchant/noble house so if you fuck up, or someone fucks you up, you can be protected, use their influence, et cetera).
Heh. This one reminds me of my das in the Sun Legion.
'Alright recruits, you all get one day off each, once a week, no preset day.'
A day with no people at all in sight? Free day off! :D
Quote from: X-D on January 26, 2014, 06:19:24 PM
Well...here is what I think.
First off...the clans have become TO much the same.
Mistake #1 IMO is that almost all clans have at least tried to put in a Byn style schedule. I think this is a mistake. The Byn SHOULD have that schedule, in fact, if I join the Byn it is one of the reasons to join. Because you know you have these times to work on these things and hang with your clannies.
I think that All the rest the clans should drop them. I would however keep a short simple schedule that promotes some get together...say 2 days a week. In Salarr for instance, Ocandra Dawn to early afternoon Sparring ring free for all...be there! Waleuk All day, FIVE C's...Cooking, compound cleaning, crafting and carousing! (carousing of course means drinking)
I think that people need to work harder in returning the clan to a unique setting.
Next...leaving the gates. Some clans have to have that rule...but some do not.
Pay...All clans have too low pay still.
Percs...Well, that is up to the leader PCs...but maybe try and remember they are the best way to keep good players.
Life oath...All three GMH should get rid* of it, as well as timed contracts past the recruit phase.
* Life oath in a GMH should carry heavy duty percs, clan apartment, high pay, special gear etc, but should be reserved for really special PCs who want to give it and deserve it.
Noble houses should mostly ditch life oath and go to contract....but switch to raising ranks and all other percs do require life oath.
Militia/legian...Sorry, I see life oath as needed there.
There is a few other things...but I am eating.
I agree. Maybe most of the non military type clans should drop the schedules. There's very little point to it. In a military setting like the Byn or the Arm, you expect to have a strict regimen to follow and it makes sense. Not so much for the others. Even hunters for the houses should be more focused on getting a few people together to go hunting rather than trying to adopt a military style life. They should be more of a rough and tumble go kill shit type of organization.
(removed)
While it's not true for every clan, a lot of the issues discussed in this thread (schedules, pay, restrictive environment) seem like things that can be handled by leaders in-game.
I think pay is not a leader's thing any more since we have the automated system in most clans.
Quote from: HavokBlue on January 26, 2014, 08:33:16 PM
While it's not true for every clan, a lot of the issues discussed in this thread (schedules, pay, restrictive environment) seem like things that can be handled by leaders in-game.
Yes, of course some of it can be, but the point of this thread is to find ways to make clans more appealing and I stated what makes them less appealing to me and part of it cannot be changed by players only.
A higher salary for the clannies would require a higher salary for leaders if you're talking about passing some of it over, while, like Barsook say, simply changing how much everyone in the clan gets is something almost everyone seem to agree on.
Also, not every leaders are willing to change schedules for this person or that person and stick to what's in the docs, that or when your leader dies and he is replaced by another one and then your lifesworn PC gets stuck with the new leader who wants it to be a heavy scheduled clan, then it sucks. If the documented schedule is made lighter and approved by Staff, more than the current PC leader, it's a lot easier to deal with.
Same with restrictive environment. I don't want a leader to allow me to something then the next leader doesn't want me to do it then the next one does, etc.. If it's in the clan docs, much easier again.
Quote from: HavokBlue on January 26, 2014, 08:33:16 PM
While it's not true for every clan, a lot of the issues discussed in this thread (schedules, pay, restrictive environment) seem like things that can be handled by leaders in-game.
I dunno, my experience is limited, but staff seems very strict on all that.
All of this "x is allowed or not" is highly dependent on your staff, your PC's leaders, and your PC.
Also, if you want to make money in a clan, pick a damn crafting subguild or a guild/subguild with haggle instead of an ass-kicking subguild.
Quote from: Malken on January 26, 2014, 08:47:46 PM
your lifesworn PC gets stuck with the new leader who wants it to be a heavy scheduled clan, then it sucks.
For the actual leaders of clans, this is similar to staff rotations. Right or wrong, my last long lived sponsored leader dude died partially as a result of the way the higher up NPCs reacted to his actions, but with the previous higher up before staff rotations (in this case, a RL month had passed), that leader knew where he stood a lot better and events likely would not have panned out as they did.
It's the same thing when some dude takes on an in game leadership position in a clan where there are already established PCs... there are sometimes conflicts of varying degrees. Ideally, someone in a sponsored role would start from scratch, but in reality, they often have to work around people who are already established,sometimes deeply entrenched, in the clan. This can cause problems because people have, uhh, different... philosophies.
I'm not saying things like this are a Huge Problem, but they make leading clans frustrating at times. In the end, some people are just better suited to handle/deal with those frustrations than others.
Ultimately, I don't think things like increasing salaries will help make clans more awesome and badass.
Awesome and badass leaders (plural, not just one leader) are what make awesome and badass clans, and if you make clans appealing to people like that, then clans will be more fun.
A bigger operating budget would be great - it's easy to feel like you're boxed in by your bank account as a leader, and it can take some time to learn how to work around that.
I'm probably in the minority here, but I miss senior npcs being animated as well. It gave clans a very alive feeling - even (or maybe especially) when you got in trouble. Most (but not all) of the clan npc animations I've been the target of in the past have involved my character getting fucked over, scolded, persecuted, mocked, intimidated, or threatened - it was rarely a positive thing, but damn I miss it anyway.
For the most part I've found I can work around clan schedules - I'd say that schedules are my least pressing concern about joining a clan. I probably won't join a clan unless I'm mentally prepared to deal with some sort of schedule - and if I end up not liking it, my character can play hooky and suffer the consequences.
I've only been in two clans before and have been playing for all told take away breaks and absences probably the better part of 10-15 years. I agree pay sucks, schedules suck, and being stuck inside when you were a hunter before being in the clan sucks. What sometimes also really sucks is getting burdened with all the work because no one else is in the clan or those that are, are hardly ever around. Or because you're one step up from recruit or whatever the entry position is. These all really really really suck and make me bang my head against the wall out of complete boredom sometimes too. Having said that I try to avoid clans like the plague now.
I wouldn't be against raising clan salaries... maybe even drastically... if I thought it would help. Hell, it might. But I personally would not join a clan for only coins, even if it was 5000 sid a month. Some people may, though. I genuinely don't know.
Crazy idea, here, for encouraging more clan play in a region where it is... terribly easy... to survive as an individual.
What if, instead of just some ghetto building and overpriced RSC vendor, the merchant houses had a resources emporium?
The emporium would buy resources from clanned hunters at fair rates, resources from independents at the rates that the Salarr stand in Nak buys (read: not very much), and then resell these goods at HUGE discounts to clanned crafters, but HUGE markups to indie crafters? Also, clanned members would be allowed to haggle, providing another incentive for merchants to actual be guild_merchant.
These would replace the current resource selling/buying locations or incorporate them somehow. And this could be an IC change, too, that would provide a project for GMH clannies to work on. It would also maybe do away with the pervasive, sometimes inane (I am totally guilty, here) cluttering of clan storage halls. Alternately, these places could operate within clan halls, in a way similar to the current "merchant" NPCs.
Change could be explained ICly by the GMHs deciding that they need a firmer grip on the wildly uncontrolled "resources" sector... or it might allow a group or entity to arise and claim the monopoly for themselves. Kadians and Salarris wouldn't need hunter PC as much anymore, just like Kurac doesn't.
Maybe the benefits of these centers could be contingent on the particular clan or rank, although while the code provides for alterations to cost of objects while buying, I am not sure if they are coded to be able to make provisions for rank - or if it is codedly possible for merchants to buy items at a higher price as a result of the seller being clanned. Selling, yes... buying, not sure.
Quote from: Kronibas on January 27, 2014, 05:25:10 AM
Kadians and Salarris wouldn't need hunter PC as much anymore.
From what I recall, those two clans -usually- have a higher number of hunters vs crafters, so.... That would actually encourage the hunters to be independent? Or maybe I'm reading the whole post wrong. It's 7:15 AM.
Yeah, there are more, at least in my experience. At the bottom line, how many hunters are needed in a given House really depends on how many crafters there are/how active the crafters are... and also, how active/skilled the hunters are. It's hard to quantify, so basing the amount of hunters an agent employs based on actual need, well, it's difficult to do that because of OOC clan considerations.
They have to provide better roleplay than not being in a clan gets me. Meatier stories. More drama.
Now, sure, restrictive schedules in clans with small numbers of players tie roleplay's shoelaces together pretty well. But there's more to it than that.
Conflict:
Agent Kad the Kadian gets into an all-out slanging match with Agent Sal the Salarri. Fuming, he goes home and orders his clannies to make Sal's name mud, to harass his hunters, and to steal his pet bird, roast it and serve it up as a banquet. Pretty juicy conflict, right?
Well, yes... but. Nothing happened here that couldn't happen with loosely affiliated group of friends A vs loosely affiliated group of friends B. Worse, it's entirely possible Kad's superiors will step in to prevent him worsening relations with Salarr. The clan isn't adding anything to the conflict here except giving people a place to meet up.
Conflict born out of personal goals and disagreements can happen anywhere. Indies don't miss out on it at all, as long as they have friends to hang round with.
Clan goals leading to tension with other groups make things much more interesting. I'd like to single out a couple of clans here for attention which I feel succeed at this:
House Kurac:
Supplying spice gives them a bone of contention with Allanak, and their outpost in the middle of the warring powers leaves them in a delicate position. Add to this Kurac's history of shady dealings, and there's room for plenty of charged situations to develop.
The Guild:
The Guild looks after the Guild's interests, and sometimes that means pissing off or assassinating someone powerful. They're a conflict gold-mine.
One measure of a good clan is whether it has the motivation to tread on the toes of people who matter. Ideally, this should be done in a very open way. Conflict which goes on solely behind closed doors is worth much less, because it touches and involves fewer people.
Meaning:
In a hypothetical clan consisting of a hunter and a leader, let us suppose some nebulous virtual demand for hides exists. The hunter kills animals and drags the carcasses back to the compound. The leader doesn't actually need the hides, and isn't affected by their lack one way or another. When the hunter dies, the leader replaces her not out of any need, but because the clan is supposed to employ hunters.
The hunter's role here is a meaningless, Sisyphean role. Nothing is achieved; if the hunter brings in two hides or twenty, it doesn't matter. The clan's resources are so vast that the hunter's efforts aren't worth tracking, and the hunter herself is not enriched. A hunter working with a small group whose resources may at times need to be expended for survival or growth may be hunting in exactly the same way, but they have a drive the other lacks: at some point that extra small made today might make the difference between being able to pay a critical bribe or not being able to do so.
It's possible to create plots for a clan and give them meaningful things to do. If the hunter is involved in hunting for some MacGuffin which can cure the terrible sickness of some senior member of the clan, we're back to a fun place - probably more fun than the small group hunter is having, because it's a departure from the ordinary. However, plots take staff attention and run in arcs that come to an end. It's better to have the meaning baked into the structure of the clan's activities.
Harshness, uncertainty and danger:
Things are always at their most fun when the outcome is uncertain. In particular, when your character's very survival is uncertain, it's hard not to find yourself facing down an adrenaline dump. Resources are more precious when you have fewer of them.
This is part of what makes the Byn fun: resources are hard come by, and each contract may be your character's last. You live on the edge, not comfortably. While the clan itself is not endangered, your continued place in it is precarious. And, importantly, your clan is not a name that can be thrown around to protect you.
Indies can get all of this in bucketloads. If eventually they pull through the dangerous times and rest atop a pile of black coins - well, they've taken risks to get there. The challenge is to find ways to push that coin back into creating conflict and meaning and make it drive roleplay for others. Not many clans offer this. There are, I think, too many comfortable places among the clans we have.
Quote from: QuirkThey have to provide better roleplay than not being in a clan gets me. Meatier stories. More drama.
I was going to reply with a list of things I've done in clans that I don't think I could have ever done as an independent, but reading some of your posts, it seems like you're dismissing "personal" sort of conflicts that can grow out of clans and only focusing on the larger scale ones. That's a fine opinion, although I think it's worth saying that when a Salarri or a Kadian are in a personal feud, or a Borsail and an Oash, or a Borsail and a Borsail, or two templars, the stakes are much higher than if it's two relatively unknown independents. Loosely affiliated groups of friends A and B don't usually have the resources or social pull to sustain a conflict the way entrenched clans can. Another thing that makes personal conflicts and drama in clans work so well is that, by and large, you can't avoid your enemy. If you're an aide and are competing with another aide for a noble's favor, you're going to be thrust into the conflict again and again, just by nature of doing your job.
But setting personal drama aside, if you want to find plots that can have world-changing effects, I think clans are definitely the route to go. You may not want to join as a hunter or a guard/soldier, but instead try out a more political role like aide, merchant, or a spy. If you can get the power to move and shake things yourself, or get the trust of a leader who can, there's plenty of meaty stories and drama. It still won't be on the "Let's annihilate House Kurac!" level of conflict, because Armageddon just isn't set up that way, and that is what it is. (That's not necessarily a bad thing, either - conflict behind the scenes can be more interesting, engaging, and just as brutal as open war.) But clans have way more resources and staff support to draw on, which undeniably helps get things done.
I've mainly been talking about "political" impact of being clanned versus indie. Where I think we agree more is on the "economic" impact you can make on the game - indies have the advantage here for sure. Like you said, sometimes it seems like some clans employ people like hunters/crafters not because the clan will feel any negative impact if they don't have someone doing the job, but just because the clan is supposed to employ people. For the sake of the game, it's not a bad thing for people to feel like they're making a valuable contribution to a clan in some way. It's certainly easier to feel a lot more valuable if you're the only crafter for a three-man outfit than if you're a cog in the Kadian corporate machine. At the same time, if House Kadius' two PC crafters stop logging in to make silk dresses, that shouldn't shut down all of Kadius' silk operations, either.
So how can we have it both ways, and let clanned PCs (especially at the non-leader level) feel like they're contributing, while at the same time not having the House run the risk of failure overall if PCs aren't available to do the job? I'm not sure if I know a good solution. But one way to feel more valuable would at least be to not feel significantly poorer than people doing your same job independently, so that leads me back to thinking raising salaries for clanned members might be a good start.
You can make a lot of money in a clan, if you play your cards right.
I had a noob pickpocket/mercenary in Salarr, and I got the go-ahead to sell knives I crafted as long as the Agent and the House got a cut. Eventually they let me sell whatever the crafters put together, because there were a ton of subclass crafters without the haggle skill, and the Agent was too busy to go out and sell all the loot they produced while training up their crafting skills...so I got like a quarter of whatever profit I could pull out of just running their garbage to the bazaar (and I got to pickpocket anybody I ran into along the way). I also had a small side business where I'd use haggle (not in the Salarr shop, obv.) to purchase things cheaper for other PCs, then charge them an extra 10-20% of what I actually paid, so they still got their stuff at a pretty decent discount and I made some 'sid on the deal as well.
But yeah, if you're a warrior/outdoorsman, 'sid can be a tad hard to come by at times...but that's when you get shady and either cut deals on the side with your House crafters or start skimming off the top of your hunting returns. If you're playing Recruit Goodie McTwoshoes and complaining that you aren't getting a fair shake...Welcome to Armageddon, son.
Well said.
Quote from: ale six on January 27, 2014, 12:46:19 PM
But setting personal drama aside, if you want to find plots that can have world-changing effects, I think clans are definitely the route to go. You may not want to join as a hunter or a guard/soldier, but instead try out a more political role like aide, merchant, or a spy. If you can get the power to move and shake things yourself, or get the trust of a leader who can, there's plenty of meaty stories and drama. It still won't be on the "Let's annihilate House Kurac!" level of conflict, because Armageddon just isn't set up that way, and that is what it is. (That's not necessarily a bad thing, either - conflict behind the scenes can be more interesting, engaging, and just as brutal as open war.) But clans have way more resources and staff support to draw on, which undeniably helps get things done.
Ah. I don't want plots that have world-changing effects, in the sense of altering the way the giant organisations of the world work. In fact, this is one of my main gripes - that the game chooses to focus largely on organisations which are too big for PCs to materially affect. I'm almost prepared to write the politics off as a dead loss. My experience of having PCs well-connected to the underworld has been that much of the time, there's pitifully little going on that can be classified as conflict. Many clans are stuck in something not far short of a stalemate, with no real way to advance their position.
Now it may be that the apparent death of player-created clans has stilted long-term goals for indies, and that they are unlikely ever to get enough love to add anything lasting to the game. That may be true. I don't know. But a group of indies still lives outside the stalemate. They have to bribe and flatter and make alliances, and can choose to make enemies where they think they can afford it. They can try to grow to a large size even without support. I don't think such groups the ideal, by any stretch of the imagination - they're too fragile and ephemeral - but we don't have many mid-sized clans which hit the sweet spot where the clan can afford to lose PCs but its survival into the future is not a guaranteed thing.
Quote from: ale six on January 27, 2014, 12:46:19 PM
So how can we have it both ways, and let clanned PCs (especially at the non-leader level) feel like they're contributing, while at the same time not having the House run the risk of failure overall if PCs aren't available to do the job? I'm not sure if I know a good solution. But one way to feel more valuable would at least be to not feel significantly poorer than people doing your same job independently, so that leads me back to thinking raising salaries for clanned members might be a good start.
I don't think the coin's the issue here. Sisyphus is still in Tartarus even if he gets paid. The problem is that the House has been allowed to get to a position where it doesn't need PC input to produce its output. If its output was meaningfully hampered, though not wholly curtailed, without PC input, then PCs would start to matter again.
Malken, I've looked over your issues and I have some feedback at least, maybe it will help.
Clan schedules blow?
Most clans that have schedules have a reason for them. Assuming it's a training schedule, it is meant to ensure that the PC does spend at least some time working on their actual coded skills as well as interaction with the rest of the clan doing what the clan does. If there are people to fight atop an inix with in your clan and that's what the schedule says, the fact that there are 20 interesting people at the bar becomes an IC thing and not an OOC annoyance. If you wanted to play a barfly, that choice should have been made earlier; you're playing in a clan that requires some training.
Now, that's not to say that these can't be worked on with staff or PC leaders if there's a larger issue. We went over schedules for the militia in Tuluk a few months back. Not everyone was happy, but enough were, and it wasn't too much work to make the changes needed.
In my view, there are (or were) a few major issues:
1. No one wants to be forced to solo "doing whatever the clan schedule says" if no one is around. Solution: Come up with an alternative that handles things once this particular situation occurs, preferably something that puts you around other players.
2. If your day(s) off are set in stone on a certain day of the week, you might miss it. Solution: Come up with an alternative to "off on Detal" that allows the player to be more in control of their PC taking time off when it makes more sense for the player.
3. No real mechanism listed for officers+ to change schedule on a whim. Should go without saying, right? Solution: add that in there. Officer wants to go do this or that? Done. No one bitches because it's different than the schedule; it's something new.
There are other issues that I do not think can be helped that easily.
For instance, excessive or restrictive playtimes. If you have a lot of time to play but that isn't matched by everyone else in the clan, any schedule is going to become tedium. If you have very little time to play and everyone else in your clan has comparatively more, you are going to feel as though you are missing out on a regular basis. Neither of these have an easy solution apart from tailoring the player to a better role.
Pay sucks?
Pay can always be reviewed as a whole. It may need to be. However, there has been at least one improvement in that you don't have to wait for a PC leader to log on to pay you. You remember those fun days, right?
Stuck inside the walls?
If you're a veteran and you play a lot and you want to play outside of the city yet not be part of a clan where they push the ICly "newbie" characters through a recruit phase (one in which they have to protect said newbie PC from the outside world that will eat them up)...then don't play those roles. Unless we have some system by which you can bypass the recruit process and play as a Trooper/Private/whatever with the appropriate coded skill to represent a few weeks of training, you're going to need to take your lumps.
The upshot of clan revamps is that one of the goals is to give long-lived PCs something to aspire towards and achieve.
Quote from: Kronibas on January 27, 2014, 05:07:12 AM
I wouldn't be against raising clan salaries... maybe even drastically... if I thought it would help. Hell, it might. But I personally would not join a clan for only coins, even if it was 5000 sid a month. Some people may, though. I genuinely don't know.
You remind me of those Foxnews newscasters that say that if we're going to give minimum wage workers a raise up to $14 an hour, why not just give them $25 an hour? Why not a million dollars an hour?! (true Foxnews words, btw)
If you personally wouldn't join a clan even if you were paid 5000 sid a month, doesn't mean that a few might not re-consider it and then join up and then, you, the person who never cared about coins, might now have a few extra players to play with :) And remember that if workers get a raise in the clan, then the bosses might even get one as well, so they can get more things done with the extra money. More fun for everyone.
Oh - Wrote that before I saw your post, Nyr. Going to read it now.
Quote from: ale six on January 27, 2014, 12:46:19 PM
Quote from: QuirkThey have to provide better roleplay than not being in a clan gets me. Meatier stories. More drama.
So how can we have it both ways, and let clanned PCs (especially at the non-leader level) feel like they're contributing, while at the same time not having the House run the risk of failure overall if PCs aren't available to do the job?
That's actually not overly hard. You just need to brainstorm ways for the house's influence to meaningfully and observably wax and wane according to PC actions. Set a hard cap on how far it can go down (NPCs are keeping the influence at a certain minimum level) at which point PCs can contribute meaningfully to the politics of a house, but even if the clan is wholly empty of them it will still maintain its place in the world.
A couple of sample ways to do this:
*Make what's available in the shops tied to how successful a clan's hunters are. The clan Imm goes through what's been successfully brought into the storage area over the last week, tallies it up against a preset chart (0-20 hides, load the bad list, 21-50 loads the medium list, more loads the good list), and then loads a corresponding gear list to each of the house's shops.
*Allow noble houses a special ability similar to the masterwork system we have now whereby they can affect the city their in with some meaningful project that gets loaded, but requires the PC servants to accomplish some tasks or acquire some components. This can be straightforward like making a statue, or slightly less straightforward like changing an echo near a clan-controlled building. Since the system would just include altering existing descriptions or making new items it could be lumped into the mastercraft system we already have.
Both of these examples include a coded way where the entire playerbase can see how effective a clan's PCs are being. Gives them something to brag about (or be humiliated over) which is always good motivation.
Quote from: Quirk on January 27, 2014, 02:08:57 PMMany clans are stuck in something not far short of a stalemate, with no real way to advance their position.
Just a quick side note on this thing: clan mobility and clan changes are certainly possible. It absolutely requires staff. However, it's not going to be an everyday thing or even an every year thing. Change occurs sometimes shockingly and dangerously, but due to the amount of work involved in making a significant change, I doubt that you will see clan changes on a massive scale on a regular basis. Some areas are perhaps easier to change quickly than others, but changing those areas quickly and often reduces the novelty of any change.
I've never played in Kurac, but I know with the other two GMH that we were never forced to stick to the schedule. Even the staff(at the time) said it was more a suggestion. Usually the crafters worked during the day when they had a project. Hunters trained when they felt like it and hunt when they felt like it unless we needed some specific material/training for upcoming mission.
Do that many clans really have a strict schedule that aren't military like AoD, Legion, Borsail.... MAYBE Winrothol?
I know we can't get into specifics, but schedules has never been an issue for me with clans.
But then I'm also one of the ones that LIKES to play in clans and have never played an independent because.... I never saw any value in it.
Quote from: Quirk on January 27, 2014, 02:08:57 PMMany clans are stuck in something not far short of a stalemate, with no real way to advance their position.
I dunno where YOU play, but I've watched clans rise and fall in power within the city based on PC actions. Usually it was the action of a low level PC doing something stupid and making everyone look bad, but.... Seriously. It does happen. A lot. If you're not in that clan, you wouldn't have heard about it. Not a HUGE raise or fall, but you do see a shift.
I think what Quirk is saying, at a base level, is that with Merchant Houses... the only position that is needed is a Merchant, for the things people order.
Why be a Hunter? Very rarely are the orders being made, craftable, and if they are, the Houses have an abundance of resources. At best, they only need their hunters to gather specific things a few times a year.
Why be a Crafter? Sure, you get your skills up, you get to practice in a safe area, you can make a good amount of coin... but you're going to be a Merchant. I've honestly never seen a PC Master Crafter represented in game, and Tek Forbid if a Salarri became Master Crafter and asked for metal crafting or something. If you're a crafter, eventually you're going to be put into the Merchant Role, because thats what people want.
If you're a Merchant, you're kind of the only focal point from the Playerbase side of things. Nobody cares about Steve the Hunter, so long as Sal the Salarri Merchant is getting them what they want. In reality, they should be receiving orders for craftable items, then sending the Hunters out to get the freshest resources, and the crafters should work tirelessly on them.
So really, whats the point of those positions in a clan? I know there ARE points, and they're "IC" but they make little sense, and if a Hunter or Crafter works EXTRA hard... maybe they'll get to be a Sergeant in the Clan, or a Merchant. Where their job becomes filling orders anyway.
I like that, for the more schedule-intensive clans, regular days off, and an optional personal day. May perhaps cause confusion due to the leaders keeping track of "Hnmmm... Who's had more than one personal day in a week?".
Quote from: Quirk on January 27, 2014, 02:08:57 PM
I'm almost prepared to write the politics off as a dead loss. My experience of having PCs well-connected to the underworld has been that much of the time, there's pitifully little going on that can be classified as conflict. Many clans are stuck in something not far short of a stalemate, with no real way to advance their position.
Wow. That's disappointing to hear, and it hasn't been my experience at all. Then again, I've been away for a while. But still, just looking at the recent in-game history events tells me politics have been happening somewhere. I don't think the staff holds things like Triumvirate meetings in Tuluk as just little exercises for their own benefit - it's been my experience that usually when decisions get made, PCs are working to influence them behind the scenes. Those kinds of plots only happen in a clan, too. I wish they'd happen more frequently -- what's been up in the Senate in Allanak lately? We used to have a page for that on the old website... but I'm digressing.
Anyway, to briefly address Synthesis' post, I'm all about corruption as a means to get ahead. It's a tagline of the game after all! I guess I just feel that if you join a clan and need to break all the rules and be corrupt just to get back to where you were had you not joined, something's out of whack.
Quote from: ale six on January 27, 2014, 02:32:06 PM
Wow. That's disappointing to hear, and it hasn't been my experience at all. Then again, I've been away for a while. But still, just looking at the recent in-game history events tells me politics have been happening somewhere. I don't think the staff holds things like Triumvirate meetings in Tuluk as just little exercises for their own benefit - it's been my experience that usually when decisions get made, PCs are working to influence them behind the scenes. Those kinds of plots only happen in a clan, too. I wish they'd happen more frequently -- what's been up in the Senate in Allanak lately? We used to have a page for that on the old website... but I'm digressing.
I should refine my thought a little. Even the underworld is not always all-seeing. Things may still be happening when all seems quiet. But if they're happening, they're happening too quietly to be useful. When the House guards or hunters don't know that their House is having a major spat with another House over some clan goals, and any aide pocketing sid for information on the side keeps schtum - then, for most players, the conflict might as well not be happening at all. If the need to keep on friendly terms publicly means gossip is stifled, the atmosphere grows stale and dull for all but a privileged few.
I've started making my own efforts to be occasionally indiscreet.
Quote from: Riev on January 27, 2014, 02:25:35 PM
I think what Quirk is saying, at a base level, is that with Merchant Houses... the only position that is needed is a Merchant, for the things people order.
Quote from: Riev on January 27, 2014, 02:25:35 PM
So really, whats the point of those positions in a clan? I know there ARE points, and they're "IC" but they make little sense, and if a Hunter or Crafter works EXTRA hard... maybe they'll get to be a Sergeant in the Clan, or a Merchant. Where their job becomes filling orders anyway.
It's like Riev can see into my head. When the rank and file jobs are effectively unnecessary, and have limited or no exposure to the clan goals, which are themselves at best playthings for long-lived sponsored roles, they are a trap. They do provide some company, and they are safe places for the untrained or poor PC to slide into, but they're a rut many seem happy to get out of after a while. Unfortunately, from an IC perspective, these dull safe jobs are meant to be highly desirable.
Quote from: Nyr on January 27, 2014, 02:17:16 PM
Just a quick side note on this thing: clan mobility and clan changes are certainly possible. It absolutely requires staff. However, it's not going to be an everyday thing or even an every year thing. Change occurs sometimes shockingly and dangerously, but due to the amount of work involved in making a significant change, I doubt that you will see clan changes on a massive scale on a regular basis. Some areas are perhaps easier to change quickly than others, but changing those areas quickly and often reduces the novelty of any change.
With the bigger clans, I think it's fair to say changes probably should be very rare. Mid-sized clans are more at risk - and arguably more interesting. The gypsies and the Red Fangs spring to mind as clans which underwent catastrophic change. But the cities lack these mid-sized clans, and the clans that do hold sway there are clans which are too stable to have conflicts on the level which causes tension among each side's foot soldiers. I think if some of those were virtual and there were some slightly smaller clans that could engage in a bit of a shoving match without descending into a bloodbath, players would be all over them.
The newly bred tension between north and south is great, incidentally.
Quote from: Riev on January 27, 2014, 02:25:35 PM
I think what Quirk is saying, at a base level, is that with Merchant Houses... the only position that is needed is a Merchant, for the things people order.
Uhm, no. This has not been my experience at ALL.
Quote from: Riev on January 27, 2014, 02:25:35 PM
Why be a Hunter? Very rarely are the orders being made, craftable, and if they are, the Houses have an abundance of resources. At best, they only need their hunters to gather specific things a few times a year.
I can tell you from experience that some times craftable goods are harder to get filled orders for than non-craftable. Staff will not load these except in extreme circumstances.
Quote from: Riev on January 27, 2014, 02:25:35 PM
Why be a Crafter? Sure, you get your skills up, you get to practice in a safe area, you can make a good amount of coin... but you're going to be a Merchant. I've honestly never seen a PC Master Crafter represented in game, and Tek Forbid if a Salarri became Master Crafter and asked for metal crafting or something. If you're a crafter, eventually you're going to be put into the Merchant Role, because thats what people want.
Yes, and if you don't have the experience crafting the things necessary for your House, and you reach the rank of Merchant.... You're SOL on what people would call "basic" orders.
Quote from: Riev on January 27, 2014, 02:25:35 PM
If you're a Merchant, you're kind of the only focal point from the Playerbase side of things. Nobody cares about Steve the Hunter, so long as Sal the Salarri Merchant is getting them what they want. In reality, they should be receiving orders for craftable items, then sending the Hunters out to get the freshest resources, and the crafters should work tirelessly on them.
They care about Steve the Hunter when the house can't get the materials they need to craft that object that they want to buy!
Quote from: Riev on January 27, 2014, 02:25:35 PM
So really, whats the point of those positions in a clan? I know there ARE points, and they're "IC" but they make little sense, and if a Hunter or Crafter works EXTRA hard... maybe they'll get to be a Sergeant in the Clan, or a Merchant. Where their job becomes filling orders anyway.
I really think the people that are saying these things haven't played long-term in a Merchant House. Yes, there can be down time. When you run into that, throw a party. Either for the other clannies or for the city or for just your friends. Go out and explore something new. Work out trade agreements with people from far away. Learn something new about plants, even if you can't use that knowledge to codedly make anything useful, it sure if fun to learn!
In the end those that enjoy not having any type of rules will never even really give clans a try. I do think the clans could benefit from a little more pay, but I've never had a problem with having plenty of money, either in a clan or out of.
(removed)
when i have a problem with money in a clan i bother my clan leader to give me more money until he gives me more or tells me to fuck off.
regardless of what clan i'm in.
Tortall, I agree with the spirit of your point, but the practice in my experience has something to be desired.
Sometimes staff WILL load something that is craftable, sometimes they won't. Some of the most fun I've had is when someone says "Chosen Lord WhoCares wants a new leather chair, so we need a dozen duskhorn hides and thirty sinew to tie it all together. We also need a dozen split logs for the framework.
Boom. I was needed, my efforts going towards something even if it is "just a chair". But right now, people don't make those orders, and often times orders are "I want that one thing you can't craft but is staff loaded, because I think loaded items are more powerful". Too many Crafters/Merchants/Traders/etc spend their Mastercrafts on something new, and different, rather than taking what gets loaded, and making it into a crafting recipe.
Imagine what would happen if there was a push towards Clan Mastercrafts being only turning old staff-load items into craftable only. Then the only thing staff would need to "load" are ACTUAL custom crafts.
Course, I do have to say, in about oh, the last 4 years or so, I have noticed staff more then willing to work with the players on improving a clan.
In response to Tortall and Riev. One issue I have seen personally with "Make the crafters make the items in question." is the crafters aren't given a list of what can be made by PC's, and they aren't given the crafting recipes either.
Even though they sit in a workshop all day surrounded by dozens of VNPC's and NPC's that would be able to lean over and tell them, "You use this, this, and this."
They are basically told, "Find out IG." Which means you have to randomly mix junk and hope for the best, even though sometimes the recipes don't even make sense, or you have to hope somebody shows up wearing that item at some point and you can talk them into letting you "analyze" it to get the recipe.
If there are none of those items in the game world, and you can't figure out the recipe by randomly mixing, well, that item just doesn't get made.
I can see a lot of items getting "lost to the void" this way. There aren't any in game to analyze, and the recipes are so random that nobody would ever think to mix those items together, so the final product is never seen again.
If staff won't load those items, well, those items just cease to exist.
I don't know whether people are overstating this 'People only want fancy loaded items' or not.
Maybe hit your fancy gear with an analyze now and then. I think you'll be surprised how much of the 'popular' things are created by PCs with materials bought in by those useless PCs who have no real role in the world and should be made virtual, apparently
I've got a lot of thoughts. I'll contribute tonight. Great thread.
Quote from: Desertman on January 27, 2014, 05:09:12 PM
In response to Tortall and Riev. One issue I have seen personally with "Make the crafters make the items in question." is the crafters aren't given a list of what can be made by PC's, and they aren't given the crafting recipes either.
Even though they sit in a workshop all day surrounded by dozens of VNPC's and NPC's that would be able to lean over and tell them, "You use this, this, and this."
They are basically told, "Find out IG." Which means you have to randomly mix junk and hope for the best, even though sometimes the recipes don't even make sense, or you have to hope somebody shows up wearing that item at some point and you can talk them into letting you "analyze" it to get the recipe.
If there are none of those items in the game world, and you can't figure out the recipe by randomly mixing, well, that item just doesn't get made.
I can see a lot of items getting "lost to the void" this way. There aren't any in game to analyze, and the recipes are so random that nobody would ever think to mix those items together, so the final product is never seen again.
If staff won't load those items, well, those items just cease to exist.
I've had staff work with me when there was a certain popular set that was craftable, but we had no idea how to get it, even with analyze. It is possible, and fairly easy, IMO. The problem is getting the materials for all the orders. It's harder than it looks.
But again, that would depend on the staffer and them being willing to work with you. I've had staff I got along great with and got things done and made things happen. Then rotation and everything stopped. Just the way things work. Part of life is getting a IMMORTAL(haha, see what I did there?) that favors you.
BLEGH, please don't derail this into staff/clan pets. It's just a matter of one person agreeing with you and one person not thinking it's a good idea. You'll eventually get to that one that thinks it's a good idea.
All this about the schedules being a guideline, and recruits being given permission by their boss to make a profit off things they sell...
Pretty sure the GMH clan docs were all completely revised in the last year or so and those types of things are not allowed.
Recruit crafters and hunters: No sales, no profits, no commissions, no pay. You work for the privilege of being employed by the GMH, having access to free food/water/shelter/locker/tools/free stabling of your mount in the clan stable, and the chance to promote to the next rank.
Recruits are not allowed to leave the city they're in, without a higher ranking person who has permission to lead you out of the city.
There's a bunch more restrictions that are more clearly spelled out than previously.
These revisions only took place over the last year or so, and I know they met up with some opposition from the players who were playing in those clans at the time.
So sure, you can break the rules, but it's important to know that you -are- breaking the rules. They're not just guidelines or suggestions, they are the official clan docs and you're expected to follow them, or accept that your character is breaking them, and accept any consequences that result from breaking the rules.
Lizzie and I once played northern/southern agent counterparts in a GMH.
We had so many clannies, staff kept slapping our wrists for "thinning the herd" which we seemed to have to do every other week or so.
Good times, good times. :D
Quote from: Lizzie on January 27, 2014, 07:42:02 PM
Pretty sure the GMH clan docs were all completely revised in the last year or so and those types of things are not allowed.
Not all. I wish.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 27, 2014, 07:48:34 PM
Lizzie and I once played northern/southern agent counterparts in a GMH.
We had so many clannies, staff kept slapping our wrists for "thinning the herd" which we seemed to have to do every other week or so.
Good times, good times. :D
It was all you! You kept hiring them, I kept driving them to suicide :)
Well okay - I did have a couple or three of my own, that my PC actually liked. But yeah we were basically driving them away with the proverbial stick. Everyone wanted to be in the clan. We could afford to be picky, then.
Now, clan leaders practically have to beg people to join. The rules were different then, the clan staff dynamics were different then, and I really do believe that the playerbase "mentality" was different then.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 27, 2014, 07:42:02 PM
Recruit crafters and hunters: No sales, no profits, no commissions, no pay. You work for the privilege of being employed by the GMH, having access to free food/water/shelter/locker/tools/free stabling of your mount in the clan stable, and the chance to promote to the next rank.
Recruits are not allowed to leave the city they're in, without a higher ranking person who has permission to lead you out of the city.
I did notice a nice and clearly spelled out rules, but it was never anything different than before from what I could tell. It was just all put in one place rather than being scattered over the clan boards in various places and edited by several people.
Pretty sure even with those changes, crafters still get a cut of what they make that is sold, recruit or no.
Hunters, if they don't make anything on their own, have a more difficult time, but I've seen where they work around it and no one gets butthurt. So long as they're not messing up House sales or Other House Sales....
Anyways, I don't see this as an issue.
And hunters have always been told to go out in pairs. If there's something particularity dangerous around for a time, or an area that's REALLY bad, or this one creature we need to kill but don't send recruits after it.... Yeah, that makes sense.
Wish I could post specifics, but it's still too soon.
Like I said - unless the rules have changed since they completely redid them in the past year - recruit crafters get no coins at all, no commission, no pay, no cut of the profits. The boss of course can toss the recruit some sids, but it comes out of his own pockets.
That was one of the changes that players took issue with, plus the new heirarchy and responsibilities of each rank.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 27, 2014, 09:22:31 PM
Like I said - unless the rules have changed since they completely redid them in the past year - recruit crafters get no coins at all, no commission, no pay, no cut of the profits. The boss of course can toss the recruit some sids, but it comes out of his own pockets.
Doesn't look like most follow their own clan rules, then, or everyone is just breaking them left and right.
Generally speaking, I think that when clans have small numbers of active players that it hurts the clan's playability and appeal. Quickly looking over the Armageddon website, I counted 20 open clans in the game. Considering a good number of players during "primetime" is 65, I think there are too many open clans. Here are some ideas about how to fix it:
1) Keep the Jaxa Pah closed. However, there really isn't a clan for PC Allanaki city elves. Solution: open the Guild up to city elves. (I haven't played in the Guild in a long time, so perhaps they already do?)
2) There are three human tribal clans. That's too many, close either the al'Siek or the Arabet. With the loss of Tyn Dashra, the Tan Muark are forced to start rebuilding their numbers by bringing people from outside the tribal family. Their wagons roam the world in hunt for suitable newcomers. Recruitment changes from OOC to half OOC/IC. There are numerous trials for those wanting to join, and they must prove their dedication to the tribe. Who do they seek? Successful independents? Clan numbers go up and indy numbers down.
3) House Fale. A noble house that throws parties. Solution: The Fales have the biggest party of all time. A red-robed templar shows up with all the PC templars and AoD. They raid the party DEA style. Numerous bricks of spice are found. The Fale are thrown into the Arena to face the Amber Wyverns. RIP House Fale. Players that enjoy Fale style RP will now find it in the Tuluki bards or perhaps the spice/pleasure dens of House Kurac.
4) Expand the range of the elven tribals. Larger ranges means more interaction which leads to more conflict. I'd like to see the Sunrunners roam all over the known selling their tribal wears. Likewise, I'd enjoy seeing the Soh raiding all over the world.
5) The GMH's are clans that are all nearly 20 years old. After 20 years, things get stale. I'm not wearing my grunge flannel anymore. However, it wasn't always this way. I played Arm when only House Kurac and House Kohmar were open. You can only have so many interesting stories about selling things... especially, when you have to do it for over two decades. What if we closed one of them? I bet this seems insane to some of you. However, do many players lament that they can't play in House Kohmar and enjoy the thrill of playing in the old house with the bandage, herb, and container monopoly? I doubt it. Maybe it's time for another trade war... Kadius vs Salarr and the winner gets to sell weapons, armors, furniture, AND silk panties.
6) House Winrothol. It's the nothern clone of House Borsail, minus the muls, Wyverns, and Arena. Why have two open slave noble houses when you can't play slaves anyway? I know it might hurt, but we got over Reynolte, right?
Obviously, there is a bit of jest in these ideas. However, I think if we concentrated the clans a bit that it would benefit everyone. Figuring out how to do that and keep most people happy would be the hard part.
Well this discussion brings back memories, huh Refugee? Even Nyr is here too :)
Several months back we had a similar discussion in the Legion forums. Some of us were feeling the clan was really restrictive and I suggest a slightly less restrictive schedule. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Instead of a day off what we got and what is basically a situation where you are either sparring or patrolling. We got less time off at night to go out to just rp at the tavern since we got night patrols, but instead of stuck in the barracks with no one to spar we got the option to go and do more city patrols. We were able to request one day off (approved by sergeant, later virtual sergeant (thank god) ).
It wouldn't have been that bad for everyone. I had a lot of time to play, mostly off-peak so for me it mostly seemed like nothing but endless patrolling of what seemed to be an empty city to me. If you have more then three hours a day to play this game being stuck in a very restrictive clan is a nightmare. Even with people around, you end up going having to do the same thing day in and day out, it just becomes boring very quick. The more restrictive the clan is the less opportunity you have to find people to RP and begins or get mixed up in your own plots as well. The opposite is must be true too though, if you only have a couple hours to play during prime time joining a clan with active leaders is a pleasure to play each day. One day off is excellent if you only have three hours to play anyways as opposed to having six or more hours to play.
Another thing I notice is that location matters. Allanak is very different from Tuluk. There is a lot more activity in allanak, mostly due to the fact your have the rinth one one side, a harsh environment that not everyone can easily survive in all around the city and a mixture of clans and personalities mingling within. I would argue that being trapped inside the gates in Allanak is really not as bad as Tuluk. In Tuluk, i would say most of the action happens outside the walls in the surrounding environment. You have people hunting, foraging, and just doing their thing around the area much more. It makes being stuck inside the walls of Tuluk even more unbearable since any action or cool scene is not as likely to happen inside the city.
Anyways these are some of the personal rules I've developed when it comes to whether I will join a clan or not.
1. I will not join a clan where I will not be allowed to earn the right to leave the gates and get myself kill within a reason amount of time. One year is my limit. There are a lot of clan leaders out there that think that if they can restrict their clan member and keep them alive their clan will be much more fun, allowing them to run whatever plots they have in mind. Let me be frank, I could care less about someone else's plot. I was to have the freedom to create my own plots and/or find join other plots that might seem interesting to me. My way of thinking is better to someone die early enjoying themselves rather that have them live a long life and store from boredom.
2.I will not join a clan where I will not be allowed to leave after a while. Some clans have up-times, and down times. I want reserve the right to move to greener pastures if the clan becomes boring for whatever reason. I've lost a couple of amazing characters because they ended up stuck somewhere I was no longer having fun in, and it was not in their nature to just pick up and run away from everything they've known. Heartbreaking.
Whenever I make exceptions to these rules there comes a point where I end up regretting it. My independents don't live as long, or get much attention but its a much more enjoyable experience to log and and think, 'hmm, what am I going to do today, rather then well, sparring and then other routine chore for the next hours and a half'. The clans having more to do, more purpose, more conflict with one another would be nice, however I am not going to hold my breathe or wait around for it to happen. That is something staff will do/change whenever or if ever they feel like it. Its the same with hoping some IC leader will make the clan enjoyable. There are some great leaders out there, some of them that thing its their responsibility to make the clan fun for me, however IC leaders are players too, and are playing for their own enjoyment, not mine. I make my character enjoyable to me to play, and I don't feel it is anyone else's responsibility but my own to do that.
Luckily there are a couple clans out there that fit my criteria. I'll stick with them (or not) for now. :)
Quote from: williamson on January 27, 2014, 10:20:38 PM3) House Fale. A noble house that throws parties. Solution: The Fales have the biggest party of all time. A red-robed templar shows up with all the PC templars and AoD. They raid the party DEA style. Numerous bricks of spice are found. The Fale are thrown into the Arena to face the Amber Wyverns. RIP House Fale. Players that enjoy Fale style RP will now find it in the Tuluki bards or perhaps the spice/pleasure dens of House Kurac.
This is absolutely ridiculous.
But part of me wants to see it.
Quote from: LauraMars on January 27, 2014, 10:42:20 PM
Quote from: williamson on January 27, 2014, 10:20:38 PM3) House Fale. A noble house that throws parties. Solution: The Fales have the biggest party of all time. A red-robed templar shows up with all the PC templars and AoD. They raid the party DEA style. Numerous bricks of spice are found. The Fale are thrown into the Arena to face the Amber Wyverns. RIP House Fale. Players that enjoy Fale style RP will now find it in the Tuluki bards or perhaps the spice/pleasure dens of House Kurac.
This is absolutely ridiculous.
But part of me wants to see it.
It would likely end with the entire AoD and Templarate spiced out of their mind, and House Fale taking their shoes.
Quote from: williamson on January 27, 2014, 10:20:38 PM
1) Keep the Jaxa Pah closed. However, there really isn't a clan for PC Allanaki city elves. Solution: open the Guild up to city elves. (I haven't played in the Guild in a long time, so perhaps they already do?)
Wouldn't really work, because 1 - for IC reason and 2 - The rinth would grow rather boring and stale if there wasn't a Guild vs elf turf war. Right now there is no turf war and thus, the rinth is boring (at least in my opinion - What would be the point of rinth rp if everyone was on the same side?)
Quote from: williamson on January 27, 2014, 10:20:38 PM
2) There are three human tribal clans. That's too many, close either the al'Siek or the Arabet. With the loss of Tyn Dashra, the Tan Muark are forced to start rebuilding their numbers by bringing people from outside the tribal family. Their wagons roam the world in hunt for suitable newcomers. Recruitment changes from OOC to half OOC/IC. There are numerous trials for those wanting to join, and they must prove their dedication to the tribe. Who do they seek? Successful independents? Clan numbers go up and indy numbers down.
There's really only one tribal clan. I don't think you can even apply for Tan Muark these days, and the Arabeti and the al Seik are basically one tribe, living together, with different docs, but if you play an Arabeti, you'll bump all the time into a Seik and vice versa.
Quote from: williamson on January 27, 2014, 10:20:38 PM
3) House Fale. A noble house that throws parties. Solution: The Fales have the biggest party of all time. A red-robed templar shows up with all the PC templars and AoD. They raid the party DEA style. Numerous bricks of spice are found. The Fale are thrown into the Arena to face the Amber Wyverns. RIP House Fale. Players that enjoy Fale style RP will now find it in the Tuluki bards or perhaps the spice/pleasure dens of House Kurac.
Never understood the point of the Fale House so I really wouldn't care if they were gone.
Quote from: williamson on January 27, 2014, 10:20:38 PM
4) Expand the range of the elven tribals. Larger ranges means more interaction which leads to more conflict. I'd like to see the Sunrunners roam all over the known selling their tribal wears. Likewise, I'd enjoy seeing the Soh raiding all over the world.
Fuck no. The last thing I want to see is desert elves acting like the grasslands belong to them and that they make you feel grateful that they're letting you leave Red Storm in peace. I seriously wish that all desert-elf tribes were gone and that the race itself was taken away, but that's a whole different topic.
Quote from: williamson on January 27, 2014, 10:20:38 PM
6) House Winrothol. It's the nothern clone of House Borsail, minus the muls, Wyverns, and Arena. Why have two open slave noble houses when you can't play slaves anyway? I know it might hurt, but we got over Reynolte, right?
There's a militaristic aspect to Winrothol that is a lot more than just slave-trading driven. I would say that player-wise, it's even more important than their slave background. They could be considered the "knight" reserve of the army fighting along the Legion shocktroops. I would probably agree with you if House Borsail and House Winrothol were in the same city, but when someone goes in either House, it's rarely with them wanting to have slave-related plots in mind.
Quote from: Malken on January 27, 2014, 11:05:26 PM
Wouldn't really work, because 1 - for IC reason and 2 - The rinth would grow rather boring and stale if there wasn't a Guild vs elf turf war. Right now there is no turf war and thus, the rinth is boring (at least in my opinion - What would be the point of rinth rp if everyone was on the same side?)
Just gotta chime in here.
A 'Rinth vs. Southside conflict would be %10000000 more interesting than "yet another human vs. elf dick waving contest", which usually only yields a case of "fuck, now I've gotta re-build my crew in this rarely populated area because 90% of 'rinth players bolt for Allanak proper upon chargen anyhow" on both sides. It's either that, or one side has to make some outrageous compromise 'cause they're soundly outnumbered.
Can go without.
Bring the pain to 'Nak.
Here are a few of the things that could be done with clans to make them more appealing. GMH and Noble Houses (hereafter referred to as NH) have different needs, so I will preface each point with the sort of organization it is concerning.
GMH - Housing:
- Single rooms with middling capacity, in a housing tenement outside of but close to the clans' estates. A limited number per clan (6-10 would be my preference), and only available to life-sworn commoner members. This accomplishes a couple of things. It bolsters the low base pay, and it serves as the basis of a cap for life-sworn membership.
NH - Housing:
- Singe rooms with high capacity, on House Grounds, for commoner life sworn members. I'd say no more than 3-6, just to almost force a life-sworn cap.
GMH - Pay:
- As attractive as higher pay sounds, I would be very wary of over-glorifying the positions. Pay could be raised, but it shouldn't be some asininely high number. On the other hand, I'd like to see the actual House coffers have a substantially high number of coins on hand.
NH - Pay:
- Noble House Pay should be stupidly high. These clans are the cream of the crop for the world, and their life sworn employees should be able to act like it.
GMH - PC Cap:
Life-sworn caps for GMHs should probably be around 10. Access to the amenities of a GMH should be sought after. I don't mind GMHs hunting people down here and there in an effort to get the best personnel, but a GMH should be a desirable place to work in, based solely upon how much better life is overall.
NH - PC Cap:
- Life-sworn caps for NH clans should be low, in the 3-6 member range. Access to premium living arrangements, insane stipends, and the social protection and prestige that comes of serving a NH should be highly sought after. NHs shouldn't be chasing anyone, ever, unless they are literally poaching employees.
NH & GMH- Themes and World Niches:
- Kurac: Combative Role: Outpost and spice land protection, trade route maintenance. Mercantile Role: Travel goods, spice, extensive tribal relations.
- Salarr: Combative Role: World-worn risk-takers, extensive hunting, exploration. Mercantile Role: Uh ... weapons and armor.
- Kadius: Combative Role: Fancy, dangerous drunkards, extensive foraging, exploration. Mercantile Role: Luxury goods.
- NHs: There's not a ton of combative roles in most NHs these days, as far as I can tell, but what roles there are seem to be pretty darned defined. I support this.
Byn - North?:
- I tend to agree that the Byn doesn't really fit Tuluk very well. You know what does? That little place that Sujaal built. Add a total of ... I think five more rooms to it, and define it as the "Byn with Northron class". Just call it the School. We know that the Byn today is in very dire straights anyway up North. What's more, if Tuluk actually crushes the Byn up North, Sujaal's School and the Byn become automatic enemies. Oh, hai, conflict.
NHs and GMHs - That First Year:
- I have no issue with recruits being paid nothing for the first year, IF changes are made to make being asked to stay on with the House something desirable. If those changes are not made, then I would like to see some sort of minor compensation given recruits. In NHs like, Tor, perhaps, and in Kurac, I support the loose idea of a schedule. In Salaar and Kadius, I think this is dumb, and if I were leading one of those Houses, I would never hold my employees to a schedule. A schedule in any non-military House, like Fale or somesuch, is ludicrous.
I also understand telling people not to leave the gates alone, but I'm not sure that this should be a rule. I'd rather it be a suggestion. Conversely, don't bother outfitting them until that year is up and they are asked to stay or go. Hunters join GMHs to hunt - telling them they can't hunt seems counter-productive. If they die, you're out of a couple sid worth of water and food, and maybe a piece of armor your merchant made ten of to practice anyway. No great lose, in my opinion.
In a NH, on the other hand, the rule should absolutely be enforced. It should be a very distinctive difference in the two sorts of clans. In a GMH, we don't care what you do as long as we have fur in our cupboard. In a NH, you are us and now our free-slave, even if only for as long as you serve us. We gift you the chance to be here, you will not run off and be shot at by desert elves for giggles.
GMHs? - Full Crafting:
- I think every item in the game that is man-made should be craftable. Every single one, with the exception of things like houses or ... things like that - statues, etc. Yes, I think even wagons should be craftable. And wagons could be made next to impossible to craft simply by creating a long enough and resources demanding crafting tree for each wagon, along with insane and diverse skill checks for each branch. I digress.
Making every item craftable accomplishes a number of things. It allows merchants to stock their stores with unique things that have been lost in the ether (this is done by "offer item 0"). It also allows those things to never truly die, forgotten by everyone. One day, someone will stumble upon the recipe. It gives even wider demand for raw goods to the hunters of the house. There's less, "That's useless to us." It ultimately lowers staff work in loading up items, and gives them more time to ... hrmph, tell stories.
Yes, it raises a merchant's workload, but then again, one can have more than one merchant in a town. And I don't know, I wouldn't mind seeing any life-sworn member of a GMH authorized to sell within a range of value based on rank. In Kurac, for instance, perhaps a Regular could sell you something priced from 1-250, a Sergeant could sell you something priced from 1-500, etc. This would also lighten the main Merchant's load, and keep them more active and less easily burnt out.
GMHs - Supply Cooperation:
- When your supply is low, there should be a system of cooperation between the GMHs whereby the House with all of the Hunters might happen to have what you need. The GMHs all work together as it is to maintain the monopoly they hold in the world - access to each others' supplies isn't a much farther reach. If Salarr has a collection of rubies that's gathering dust, Kadius ought to be able to ask about that and get monetarily favorable access to them. Independents should serve independents, and the GMHs should work more closely together, at least on the surface.
GMHs and NHs - Non-Lifesworn Roles:
- Finally, every GMH and every NH should have good, strong roles that do not require you to swear a life oath, but that is also somewhat of a surface role. Why do you do what you do? Because Lord Oash said so. The Lifesworn guy might know that Lord Oash needs you to go there and kill this guy because it sets in play a chain effect of intrigue. You don't get told that. Go kill him, now. You failed? Oh. Well, fuck off. Get fired, with no reference, you shit.
As far as I know, every GMH has roles like these. I'm not so sure that all of the NHs do.
As far as the cities' military forces go, the entry role should never be a life-sworn role. You should serve terms of service, and re-up at the end of your term, or be able to usually leave. Maybe even allow non-lifer corporals. Sergeants and higher, I'd say, should be life-sworn.
A++ would read again and implement all of Monsieur LesSeptVeninsMortels on the spot.
I need to add one more thing to this.
Ultimately, what would make clans more appealing, particularly in light of the suggestions I have made, is the loss of one of the cities. For one, it would enable more NHs to be opened in direct interaction and competition with one another, ie: All of Tuluk's NHs open, or all of Allanak's NHs opened. It would consolidate the bases for the GMHs as well, much like Kurac is pretty much centralized in Luir's. With massive quality-of-life improvements to the clans, these NH and GMH positions would be clamored for, and betrayal and murder might actually become a way into these cushy(er) jobs.
You would have a thriving independent scene, and a thriving clan scene, particularly with the number of players we have these days.
I think the idea to put in more family member PC's and higher up people in the GMH's was a good step. Being mid-ranked, I felt a need to socialise more with those in my social caste (in tuluk for example), and you do want to make 'friends', but I'd like to also have people to outright despise, but with say only one Salarr PC in such a position, it kind of hinders any business you might want with Salarr, even though there could be fifty virtual Salarr to deal with then afterwards, and vise-versa. That make sense? It would be good to have more people to plot with and against. That's not to say you still don't secretly screw over the people who are supposedly your friends. Maybe in Tuluk you shouldn't have those people you openly hate anyway?
To me, there seems to be plenty of low independent squabbles and plotting and scheming, but not enough of the higher ups, Agent+'s, and Surif, but the work to get more is there from what I've seen lately with rollcalls, so thumbs up there!
I think a huuuge draw for GMH clans and noble clans would be in-compound bedrooms for life-sworn members. Even small rooms, but big enough that players get to play "House". Rugs, tables, paintings, figurines, silk sheets, wardrobes, all that cool stuff (if they can afford it that is). But oaths shouldn't be so easy, and it should take some years IG to achieve them.
Hiring a skilled robber to burgle apartments in Tuluk, probly not as much fun as trying to figure out ways to burgle houses within clan compounds :D
Some awesome thoughts from Venomz. I have a couple comments about a few of the ideas.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 28, 2014, 12:13:46 AM
GMH - Housing:
Single rooms with middling capacity, in a housing tenement outside of but close to the clans' estates. A limited number per clan (6-10 would be my preference), and only available to life-sworn commoner members. This accomplishes a couple of things. It bolsters the low base pay, and it serves as the basis of a cap for life-sworn membership.
I'd make it even more limited, say, 3-5 max, with one "reservation required" room provided short-term at the highest-ranking PC agent's discretion. It gives the lifesworn something to strive for AND a built-in point of conflict when there are several life-sworn. My experience with intra-clan conflict usually goes like this: "I'm doing something the docs say I'm not supposed to do, because I feel like it, so there." "But you're not supposed to do it, because it makes things hard for the rest of us to do what we're supposed to be doing." "So? Who cares? Just chill out." "Mooooooom Johnny's breaking the rules and doesn't care that we can't do our jobs if he refuses to do his!"
Or..
"Cindy is MY girlfriend, don't look at her. C'mere Cindy, let's snog naked on the cot in the communal bunkroom." "...omg do they EVER put on clothes and hunt? I need kryl shells dammit..." ...two RL weeks later... look in trunk You see - no kryl shells. Look on cot: You see Cindy and Amos, naked, snogging. ragequit.
I'd like to see some more variety in the reasons why characters should have conflict with each other. The whole jealousy/relationships/lack of interest in doing what they were hired to do drama is old, overdone. Have three rooms, with five people wanting to live in them. There's something at least a little different that they can fight over.
Quote
GMH - Pay:
As attractive as higher pay sounds, I would be very wary of over-glorifying the positions. Pay could be raised, but it shouldn't be some asininely high number. On the other hand, I'd like to see the actual House coffers have a substantially high number of coins on hand.
Another idea to add to this: presently, the Agent/Merchant can gift his employees with stuff from his own personal stores, plus they get a discount. But if they can't afford the things the House sells, a discount is pretty pointless for lower-ranked people who can't afford to *save* anything, let alone spend it on fancy stuff. So make a new perk: Once you've completed your first month, you get one item of something the House sells, appropriate to your position, of value no more than 250 sids (house cost). A crafter might get fancy new tools for himself to keep even after he leaves the House, or maybe he'd get a sturdy grebbing outfit so he can greb stones that he finds near the gates, without getting his city outfit dirty. Or a new cloak, or a fancy new pair of sunslits. A hunter might get a new pair of riding boots, or gloves, a cloak - something that would actually be of use to him. The employee can pick it out. After a year's service, they'd get their promotion or extension of duty, plus another freebie. After two years service, they'd get to pick out an item free, of up to 500 sids house cost value.
They'd STILL get their discount, and their pay, and all the other perks that come with the job. The Merchant/Agent can still also give them free stuff if they want. But the employee would be -guaranteed- a free item after completing certain time periods of employment with the House. Sort of like getting a 5-year mantle clock or a set of luggage to commemorate your 10th year at a corporation.
QuoteNHs and GMHs - That First Year:
I'm thinking instead of strict schedules, you have amounts of time you're expected to devote to clan-related activities and clan-needed skills.
So - instead of sparring every dawn for 2 hours... you say "You must either spar, OR actively hunt, or craft, for no less than one game-hour (10 minutes) for each game-day (hour) you are logged in per game-week (day)." And further - you should have a max window. You shouldn't be killing things/sparring/spam-crafting every moment of every logged in day either. So maybe you can do these things minimum of 10 minutes, maximum of 1/2 hour, for every hour you're logged in. The rest of the time should be devoted to interacting with other characters, meetings, hanging out at the bar, relaxing, cleaning the barracks, getting laid, getting drunk, looking for Steinal, etc. etc. etc.
Leave it up to the PCs to figure out when and how to meet up to accomplish their required tasks. Emphasize that they learn how to effectively use the Way, and then to actually USE it to communicate with each other when there's no one else in the barracks when they show up. It's unbelievable how many times I've heard clannies say "there was no one in the barracks so I didn't do anything productive today" when a bunch of us were at the bar, more than happy to return to the compound to do stuff, even though we had just finished doing stuff. But the lone clannie never bothered to even TRY to find out if any of us were around.
Those are really the only things I'd tweak/add to Venomz's points. I agree with the rest of them.
There are clans that are very regimented. And they should be. Both armies and the Byn (and the academy when it's open) have very strict schedules. This is not a bad thing. They're the type of organizations that should.
Other clan I think don't need the imms to say how regimented they should or should not be. I think it should be reactive. Different nobles and family members will run things as they see fit. Different noble and merchant house employees will respond best to various input. And things will break and fix themselves and popularity will wax and wane and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.
For example if I like to hire newbies they may need a lot more structure to keep them alive or engaged.
If another player prefers to hire pcs that are already successful (ex byn troopers, well known independents who've made names for themselves, etc.) fewer restrictions will make sense. I think there's something to be said for not making everything delineated and cookie-cutter.
Quote from: Barzalene on January 28, 2014, 08:59:28 AM
There are clans that are very regimented. And they should be. Both armies and the Byn (and the academy when it's open) have very strict schedules. This is not a bad thing. They're the type of organizations that should.
Other clan I think don't need the imms to say how regimented they should or should not be. I think it should be reactive. Different nobles and family members will run things as they see fit. Different noble and merchant house employees will respond best to various input. And things will break and fix themselves and popularity will wax and wane and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.
For example if I like to hire newbies they may need a lot more structure to keep them alive or engaged.
If another player prefers to hire pcs that are already successful (ex byn troopers, well known independents who've made names for themselves, etc.) fewer restrictions will make sense. I think there's something to be said for not making everything delineated and cookie-cutter.
Employees still need structure. Guidelines, so they know what's expected of them. So they know that if they want to actually earn the coins their NPC paymaster automatically gives them, and the food their NPC foodguy automatically gives them, and the compound access the gate guard automatically grants them, and the water that the automated tun fills for them, they have to do a certain minimum.
This minimum can't be "as defined by their immediate PC boss." There are personal aides for immediate PC bosses, who theoretically aren't even supposed to have clan access at all (unless the docs have been changed again since I've seen them in the past year). Those are the only employees that the bosses should be able to *not* impose a minimum on, if he doesn't feel like imposing one. Everyone else who is clanned, is employed by the clan itself, with the PC boss as their immediate supervisor. The clan itself has to have certain minimum standards, otherwise it becomes just a social clan with nothing getting done. Or worse - a clan where the storerooms are so filled with shit that the crafters don't need, that there's no room left to put the shit that they do need, making it impossible for them to get anything done even when they're wanting to do so.
And then you have the recruit hunters who are SO buff...from non-stop sparring and non-stop hunting and non-stop foraging - from basically constant skill-grinding..
that the brand new recruit hunters can't spar with their fellow recruits beyond an initial one-shot unconsciousness. Or getting left behind because the skill-grinders don't want to deal with the new folks who need them to slow down and remember they're not the only ones in the crew.
Minimums are important. So are maximums. But - anything inbetween should be left up to the PC crews themselves, with the PC boss as overseer of the operation.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 28, 2014, 12:13:46 AM
GMH - Housing:
- Single rooms with middling capacity, in a housing tenement outside of but close to the clans' estates. A limited number per clan (6-10 would be my preference), and only available to life-sworn commoner members. This accomplishes a couple of things. It bolsters the low base pay, and it serves as the basis of a cap for life-sworn membership.
Some kind of space that a long-serving clan member can call their own seems not unreasonable.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 28, 2014, 12:13:46 AM
GMH - PC Cap:
Life-sworn caps for GMHs should probably be around 10. Access to the amenities of a GMH should be sought after. I don't mind GMHs hunting people down here and there in an effort to get the best personnel, but a GMH should be a desirable place to work in, based solely upon how much better life is overall.
Ten feels like a lot. If the three GMHs are each at cap with ten lifesworn, and have a number of non-lifesworn besides, you're plausibly getting into situations where half the people online could be GMH. And, as I believe I've mentioned earlier, most of these GMH roles are in a certain sense "bad roles" - whether they're rigorously staffed by martinets or filled with lackadaisical slackers, there's likely little effect on the Agent's ability to load up special orders; they are shielded from most conflict save that sparked by personal disagreements, and to a degree even the conflict between city-states; most of the roles are neither gritty nor harsh, but ICly are supposedly highly desirable soft jobs. Kurac, the grittiest and most conflict-ridden GMH, can possibly justify so many PCs in the name of keeping Luir's running. I'm less convinced by the others.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 28, 2014, 12:13:46 AM
GMHs? - Full Crafting:
- I think every item in the game that is man-made should be craftable.
This would be great, but I think the effort involved to put so many crafts in place is undoable. Lots of basic things which have been in shops for ages can't be crafted. What's commonly seen in shops is a tiny proportion of the item database. It could eat a staff member's time for a solid year and not be done, I think.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 28, 2014, 12:13:46 AM
GMHs - Supply Cooperation:
- When your supply is low, there should be a system of cooperation between the GMHs whereby the House with all of the Hunters might happen to have what you need.
Oh, hell no. The cartel structure is already a huge part of the problem. Arm has a shortage of protagonist-antagonist pairings which have any teeth to them at all. The last thing we need is for the big players economically to be even cosier.
By the time 7DV posted, I had felt like this thread culminated in a lot of great ideas I can totally get behind.
Williamson's post about closing clans got me thinking. I actually wouldn't want to see many existing clans closed, but what I would like to see is deeper saturation of leaders in every clan. Intra-clan politics has been lots of fun and extremely cutthroat in the past, and also often bleeds out into the larger plot web of the world, too. But to support those sorts of plots, you need more than one leader per House. Ideally, I think every open Noble House should have 2 active PC nobles minimum, because as a noble the only thing more fun than fucking over other nobles is fucking over your own cousins. With GMHs, I'm not sure - maybe 3 per House? You want enough people to force a little friction.
Larger PC representation of Houses at the top level also helps the world feel more real and vast to me. I cringe when I hear people asking who "the" public face of House Whatever is, like there's only one. I think having more leaders also helps more plots trickle down to PCs in the game, and gets more people into clans and having fun. Or even if they're unclanned, they're usually being used by somebody in some fashion, or caught up in a struggle between two competitors. And that's all great. Some of the best fun I had in Allanak came at a time when there were something like seven nobles across four open Houses, plus three blue robed templars. That sort of saturation really gets an area cooking.
So would we need to close any existing clans to get that sort of saturation in the remaining ones? I'm not sure. I wonder what would happen if we tried to get both cities to a full staff of doubled-up PCs in Noble Houses + 3 templars, and see if clans didn't feel more fun just by sheer force of more action?
More than one per house per location is awkward - and can be OOCly frustrating and aggravating. Especially if one of them has been around awhile, and already has accumulated their contacts and networks and friends. When I played my Kadian, the other guy had already been there, entrenched himself in politics, and then I showed up, the staff said "okay here you are, one, two, three, GO." And gave us both the same task to accomplish involving the Senate meeting.
It was ridiculous. I was brand new out of chargen, my character didn't know anyone, had no idea what the current climate was politically, had no idea who was running what, who was an aide, who was around...and the other guy had been hobnobbing with the "important" people for weeks already. So clearly, I had no place in the situation at all. I had no reason to get involved, because the other guy was already handling it and clearly didn't want my character's help.
Thanks to some encouragement from the staff and some screw-ups from the other guy, I ended up handling the project and he got transferred. But if either of those things hadn't happened, I probably would've ended up storing within a week of genning. I wouldn't wish that kind of "grand opening" of a PC to anyone.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 28, 2014, 02:42:34 PM
More than one per house per location is awkward - and can be OOCly frustrating and aggravating. Especially if one of them has been around awhile, and already has accumulated their contacts and networks and friends. When I played my Kadian, the other guy had already been there, entrenched himself in politics, and then I showed up, the staff said "okay here you are, one, two, three, GO." And gave us both the same task to accomplish involving the Senate meeting.
It was ridiculous. I was brand new out of chargen, my character didn't know anyone, had no idea what the current climate was politically, had no idea who was running what, who was an aide, who was around...and the other guy had been hobnobbing with the "important" people for weeks already. So clearly, I had no place in the situation at all. I had no reason to get involved, because the other guy was already handling it and clearly didn't want my character's help.
Thanks to some encouragement from the staff and some screw-ups from the other guy, I ended up handling the project and he got transferred. But if either of those things hadn't happened, I probably would've ended up storing within a week of genning. I wouldn't wish that kind of "grand opening" of a PC to anyone.
Careful about broadly applying personal preferences. If I had ever gotten to play a character in just that situation you described, I would die of rippling internal joy.
^ yep.
+1 to more leaders and/or family members in the same area. I think this is sort of what staff have been going for to an extent with the GMH and noble houses and I like it.
I really like the idea of putting in on-grounds housing units for life-sworn merchant House employees.
I'm not looking forward to matching wits with you ... but that said:
Quote from: Quirk on January 28, 2014, 10:47:39 AM
Ten feels like a lot. If the three GMHs are each at cap with ten lifesworn, and have a number of non-lifesworn besides, you're plausibly getting into situations where half the people online could be GMH. And, as I believe I've mentioned earlier, most of these GMH roles are in a certain sense "bad roles" - whether they're rigorously staffed by martinets or filled with lackadaisical slackers, there's likely little effect on the Agent's ability to load up special orders; they are shielded from most conflict save that sparked by personal disagreements, and to a degree even the conflict between city-states; most of the roles are neither gritty nor harsh, but ICly are supposedly highly desirable soft jobs. Kurac, the grittiest and most conflict-ridden GMH, can possibly justify so many PCs in the name of keeping Luir's running. I'm less convinced by the others.
While 10 may be high, I think you have to remember that the playing times of various people vary. Yes, all ten could be online at once, but that's incredibly unlikely. We have maybe 15 PCs in the clan I am in, and there are a ton of times when I log on, there's sixty people online, and there are only 1-4 of my clan around. Still, sure, I'm good with lowering that number to 5, same as the NHs.
Quote from: Quirk on January 28, 2014, 10:47:39 AM
This would be great, but I think the effort involved to put so many crafts in place is undoable. Lots of basic things which have been in shops for ages can't be crafted. What's commonly seen in shops is a tiny proportion of the item database. It could eat a staff member's time for a solid year and not be done, I think.
Unless writing up a craft is way harder than I think it is, I don't see how that's possible. At just 10 a day, average, one staffer could do 3600 a year. And I can't imagine that 10 a day would eat up much of the day. I guess I could be wrong, though.
It was my impression that it's the approval chain that takes the time.
Quote from: Quirk on January 28, 2014, 10:47:39 AM
Oh, hell no. The cartel structure is already a huge part of the problem. Arm has a shortage of protagonist-antagonist pairings which have any teeth to them at all. The last thing we need is for the big players economically to be even cosier.
Just because Salarr lets Kurac buy raw goods from them doesn't mean a thing, if you ask me. How's that different than Kurac buying silks from Kadius? It's just a different good. And I can't see how the cartel structure is a problem, anyway. Independents should be at odds with the GMHs. That seems like conflict to me.
You have to create each individual item based on a template, and then create a craft list. It's a bit tricky, at least on the one MUD I ever played on, to do it on the spot.
The items are already created, though. All you are doing is doing the craft list.
I think I would like to just see a LOT more to do in a clan.
I could get past the monotonous schedules and the low pay if I was guaranteed that I had a chance to participate in a colorful RP event at least once a week, and there were longer story arcs that weren't simply the same old thing over and over. When I played in the Byn, my best chance at getting in on an RP event was shuffling my schedule around to try and make sure that I was around for a desert patrol.
That's really a tall order when you consider how much work has to go into these things, but in the past, while I was playing, I got the impression that a lot of RP events were single-clan planned things that MAY have had some immortal intervention to make the puzzle pieces fall into place. A lot of that can get cut out if clan leader players were allowed to conspire together OOCly (with staff oversight, so maybe on a closed board or during scheduled chats) to create clan-vs-clan or clan-co-ops drama and story arcs. Doesn't have to a fully planned thing, but enough to get the ball rolling. ("Hey, Kuraci leader player, how much drama do you think we could drum up if my tribal clan got blamed for a spice shipment raid?") I don't really know how these things go down, but I -do- trust veteran plans in leadership roles enough to think that they would put fun of play for everyone and the creation of an interesting, treachery-filled story ahead of their personal gain or character safety.
Slatefox that ooc communication idea just creates too much of a contrived feel to it. It wouldn't be the same as having the event actually happen.
Quote from: evilcabbage on January 28, 2014, 06:21:55 PM
Slatefox that ooc communication idea just creates too much of a contrived feel to it. It wouldn't be the same as having the event actually happen.
I'm all for a tribal clan to just up and decide to raid Kuraci to get the ball rolling (not actually saying to do that, just going along with the theme of my earlier suggestion). I just see it ending kind of prematurely and rather flatly, seeing as how staff would kind of have to sneakily encourage Kuraci to actually -have- a shipment to raid in a place not completely overrun with insta-jailing/insta-killing NPCs.
I just end up viewing clans as what AOL RhyDin guilds used to be: insulated.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 28, 2014, 04:33:27 PM
Quote from: Quirk on January 28, 2014, 10:47:39 AM
This would be great, but I think the effort involved to put so many crafts in place is undoable. Lots of basic things which have been in shops for ages can't be crafted. What's commonly seen in shops is a tiny proportion of the item database. It could eat a staff member's time for a solid year and not be done, I think.
Unless writing up a craft is way harder than I think it is, I don't see how that's possible. At just 10 a day, average, one staffer could do 3600 a year. And I can't imagine that 10 a day would eat up much of the day. I guess I could be wrong, though.
I think you underestimate how many items an old mud can acquire. I would be completely unsurprised to find the number of uncraftable items in the DB was greater than 3600.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 28, 2014, 04:33:27 PM
Quote from: Quirk on January 28, 2014, 10:47:39 AM
Oh, hell no. The cartel structure is already a huge part of the problem. Arm has a shortage of protagonist-antagonist pairings which have any teeth to them at all. The last thing we need is for the big players economically to be even cosier.
Just because Salarr lets Kurac buy raw goods from them doesn't mean a thing, if you ask me. How's that different than Kurac buying silks from Kadius? It's just a different good. And I can't see how the cartel structure is a problem, anyway. Independents should be at odds with the GMHs. That seems like conflict to me.
Independents and GMHs have conflicts in the way flies and flyswatters have conflicts. It makes for fundamentally uninteresting stories unless there is some prospect that the indie might win in the end. And since there is no realistic prospect of this, there's no tension for a Merchant House hunter when they run into an independent, and the only tension for anyone at all comes when a Merchant House decides to single out and crush an independent - historically, though I understand this is less the case now, this was usually because they were a PC, even though in terms of influence and threat the picked on PCs were normally way behind those NPCs who've got so far as to secure a spot in the bazaar.
A large proportion of the playerbase being on what counts as approximately the same side, and no real threat existing to that side in game, is a recipe for dullness. It's a configuration with nothing much for a story to hang off. It lacks room for ambition, it lacks antagonists, it lacks any form of danger or risk. You put two Houses side by side and tell them they're bitter rivals and give them something they can properly tussle over, roleplay will start sparking all by itself and they'll devote themselves to plotting one another's downfall. Put them side by side and tell them they're friends and... well, you've still got nothing. You need more story elements to make that alliance interesting, but in the actual case we're dealing with, there are no permanent story elements in play that challenge the position of the economic powerhouses.
More than this, stable friendships between the powerful make telling stories involving them consume vastly more effort. To illustrate, if we imagine a large intervention, such as a gang of arsonists burning a whole House compound to the ground, in a placid setting in which all the powerful are more or less allies the tendency is toward a rebound after the shock: their friends will rally round, help the damaged House rebuild, and all will be much as it was before much time has passed. If such an intervention were carried out in a tense, charged situation with Houses at each others' throats, the drama would intensify and spin off in all directions: rival Houses will fall under suspicion of causing the incident; some of these rivals will exploit the damaged House's temporary weakness; other groups who are unfriendly to the rivals may work to cast more suspicion against them and deepen the enmity; the weakened House may find itself stretching to make new allies and making promises that are likely to cost it dear later. In the first case, whichever imm is trying to keep the players in the House interested will need to come up with something else new after just a little while. In the second case, the intervention keeps on giving, and occupies a great many of the surrounding clans as well.
Create a pc tribe.
They make fancy clothes and jewelry. They -hate- Kadius. Hate them with every fiber in their being because they firmly believe they are the best at making clothes and jewelry.
Create 2-4 sponsored roles and then people can choose that tribe as their starting location. And so the flames of war consume fashion.
I know this is a lot of work, I just want there to be a situation where wearing certain clothing items can all but get you knifed by Kadius. Or armor/ by Salaar, or whatever.
I would gladly donate my free time to craftable-ing uncraftables.
Quote from: long live miley cyrus on January 28, 2014, 08:09:39 PM
Create a pc tribe.
They make fancy clothes and jewelry. They -hate- Kadius. Hate them with every fiber in their being because [other IC reasons].
help Tan Muark
I think the staff don't want any more new tribes or clans that players create.
As a side note, I'm sure players would love to help contribute recipes for uncraftable gear. I remember a few years ago with my Kadian, my staff was constantly asking for recipes for uncraftables, and was constantly giving them.
I think the main constrictor is staff time. Our volunteer staff has a lot of stuff to do already.
My only issue with making everything craftable is then if the GMH didn't have the crafters with a high enough skill/that specific skill then the customers are SOL.
Also, it's VERY had to get materials. I know most of you think the GMH has this great supply of materials, and it may look like it, but it's mostly junk that is never used but also never tossed. When you need 8 hides of a specific animal for that set of armor and THREE people want that set.... Yah, could take you RL months to get enough hides, assuming you don't rip any. Which you still do at the Master level. More than you'd think.
As much as I'd LIKE more things to be craftable.... I think in the long run it will just make things a lot harder and have a lot of players grumpy with the GHM.
Quote from: Quirk on January 28, 2014, 08:03:13 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 28, 2014, 04:33:27 PM
Quote from: Quirk on January 28, 2014, 10:47:39 AM
This would be great, but I think the effort involved to put so many crafts in place is undoable. Lots of basic things which have been in shops for ages can't be crafted. What's commonly seen in shops is a tiny proportion of the item database. It could eat a staff member's time for a solid year and not be done, I think.
Unless writing up a craft is way harder than I think it is, I don't see how that's possible. At just 10 a day, average, one staffer could do 3600 a year. And I can't imagine that 10 a day would eat up much of the day. I guess I could be wrong, though.
I think you underestimate how many items an old mud can acquire. I would be completely unsurprised to find the number of uncraftable items in the DB was greater than 3600.
Oh I'm sure it is. And I probably am underestimating the time required to bring everything in line. But I think the work required would be worth it in the long run. I mean, I might be wrong about that, too, though.
Quote from: Quirk on January 28, 2014, 08:03:13 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 28, 2014, 04:33:27 PM
Quote from: Quirk on January 28, 2014, 10:47:39 AM
Oh, hell no. The cartel structure is already a huge part of the problem. Arm has a shortage of protagonist-antagonist pairings which have any teeth to them at all. The last thing we need is for the big players economically to be even cosier.
Just because Salarr lets Kurac buy raw goods from them doesn't mean a thing, if you ask me. How's that different than Kurac buying silks from Kadius? It's just a different good. And I can't see how the cartel structure is a problem, anyway. Independents should be at odds with the GMHs. That seems like conflict to me.
Independents and GMHs have conflicts in the way flies and flyswatters have conflicts. It makes for fundamentally uninteresting stories unless there is some prospect that the indie might win in the end. And since there is no realistic prospect of this, there's no tension for a Merchant House hunter when they run into an independent, and the only tension for anyone at all comes when a Merchant House decides to single out and crush an independent - historically, though I understand this is less the case now, this was usually because they were a PC, even though in terms of influence and threat the picked on PCs were normally way behind those NPCs who've got so far as to secure a spot in the bazaar.
A large proportion of the playerbase being on what counts as approximately the same side, and no real threat existing to that side in game, is a recipe for dullness. It's a configuration with nothing much for a story to hang off. It lacks room for ambition, it lacks antagonists, it lacks any form of danger or risk. You put two Houses side by side and tell them they're bitter rivals and give them something they can properly tussle over, roleplay will start sparking all by itself and they'll devote themselves to plotting one another's downfall. Put them side by side and tell them they're friends and... well, you've still got nothing. You need more story elements to make that alliance interesting, but in the actual case we're dealing with, there are no permanent story elements in play that challenge the position of the economic powerhouses.
More than this, stable friendships between the powerful make telling stories involving them consume vastly more effort. To illustrate, if we imagine a large intervention, such as a gang of arsonists burning a whole House compound to the ground, in a placid setting in which all the powerful are more or less allies the tendency is toward a rebound after the shock: their friends will rally round, help the damaged House rebuild, and all will be much as it was before much time has passed. If such an intervention were carried out in a tense, charged situation with Houses at each others' throats, the drama would intensify and spin off in all directions: rival Houses will fall under suspicion of causing the incident; some of these rivals will exploit the damaged House's temporary weakness; other groups who are unfriendly to the rivals may work to cast more suspicion against them and deepen the enmity; the weakened House may find itself stretching to make new allies and making promises that are likely to cost it dear later. In the first case, whichever imm is trying to keep the players in the House interested will need to come up with something else new after just a little while. In the second case, the intervention keeps on giving, and occupies a great many of the surrounding clans as well.
... just because a GMH turns to raid another GMH's stocks before they raid the indie's stocks, that doesn't make them friends, nor does it make them real allies. The concept is more about making the GMHs' hunters' work more important and busy, and forcing indies to generally rely on other indies to make that cheese, while the GMHs
still crush substantial indie competition under their heel.
It's not that I can't see your point, but I'm not sure you see mine. Seems to me that it makes the indie's life a tad harder.
Quote from: tortall on January 28, 2014, 08:55:06 PM
My only issue with making everything craftable is then if the GMH didn't have the crafters with a high enough skill/that specific skill then the customers are SOL.
Also, it's VERY had to get materials. I know most of you think the GMH has this great supply of materials, and it may look like it, but it's mostly junk that is never used but also never tossed. When you need 8 hides of a specific animal for that set of armor and THREE people want that set.... Yah, could take you RL months to get enough hides, assuming you don't rip any. Which you still do at the Master level. More than you'd think.
As much as I'd LIKE more things to be craftable.... I think in the long run it will just make things a lot harder and have a lot of players grumpy with the GHM.
Well, I'd expect staff to work with such a lack of skill. As far as materials, it's hard to get them for two reasons. One, it's dangerous to do so and the House doesn't have the amount of skill required to bring those things in, or two, the hunters know perfectly well that the storeroom is filling up with X and X and as they run out of room for stuff, they slow down hunting to nearly a crawl.
And that stuff that never gets used? If you were expected to fill your local store with goods, not only would it get used, but additional crafts would start creating uses for that stuff that currently doesn't get used much.
That said, I do see your point, and compounding that with Quirk's point above, I suppose it's a fool's task.
Alright.
For what it's worth, I agree with 7DV that it would be amazing if everything were craftable and people actually had to go through quests and effort to achieve that special item instead of having it loaded by staff after an artificial half-month delay. Hunters would actually be needed, crafters would actually be needed.
Right now they just sort of exist.
Downsides? Boo hoo, Agent Mucky-muck is having a hard time getting his ankheg-shell diamond-studded tiara?
GOOD.
Agreed. People would probably be fighting over rare materials before they'd even been crafted! Which would be awesome.
Also, @Quirk: Just because GMH's aren't in overt war burning each other's estates down doesn't mean they don't come in to plenty of conflict. Play an Agent some time if you don't believe me.
Quote from: Delirium on January 28, 2014, 11:06:52 PM
Downsides? Boo hoo, Agent Mucky-muck is having a hard time getting his ankheg-shell diamond-studded tiara?
GOOD.
My last experience is that often for "rare" things staff would make you at least acquire that rare part of the item and junk it before they would load it. I've junked many a bahamet shell in my day. :-p
Now, they don't do that ALL the time, but when it was happening I found it was done in a pretty good and fair way.
I do HIGHLY agree that uber tiny rooms(without room for lots of junk, maybe a tiny 1 person bed and a chest, nothing more) for Lifesworn employees would be awesome, though for at least one GMH there is something SLIGHTLY like that already in place. But higher pay for Lifesworn I think would be good as well. I -rarely- see Lifesworn employees, and I'd say that you can't be Lifesworn until you served at least 3-5 years. Gotta prove two things: 1) You're willing to work for this and 2) You're not an idiot who's going to just run out and get killed.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 28, 2014, 10:11:39 PM
... just because a GMH turns to raid another GMH's stocks before they raid the indie's stocks, that doesn't make them friends, nor does it make them real allies. The concept is more about making the GMHs' hunters' work more important and busy, and forcing indies to generally rely on other indies to make that cheese, while the GMHs still crush substantial indie competition under their heel.
It's not that I can't see your point, but I'm not sure you see mine. Seems to me that it makes the indie's life a tad harder.
I don't think it changes the game very much for indies at all. After all, at present, the Houses don't necessarily make use of their own hunters' produce, and I don't think many indies are surviving largely on what they can sell to a House. If Houses did actually need all the materials for the items they had to make, then yes, prospectively indies could benefit substantially from that, and this would limit those benefits.
However, for GMHs, such a move throws further disincentives to conflict with other GMHs into the mix. If you're going to piss off your opposite number Agent at Kurac, you could lose access to their stocks. And if you and the Kuraci are both annoyed at each other, but also need things you're both certain the other has got, the temptation to reconcile grows. At a lower level than Agents, the Merchant House hunters can all group together into a happy band who're all supplying the same group of people anyway.
I think it would stifle what little conflict exists between GMHs.
Quote from: Jherlen on January 28, 2014, 11:14:46 PM
Also, @Quirk: Just because GMH's aren't in overt war burning each other's estates down doesn't mean they don't come in to plenty of conflict. Play an Agent some time if you don't believe me.
Well, firstly, I was responding to Venomz' plea for more collaboration between the GMHs and arguing against making them a tighter cartel yet. However, I think I can still take exception to "plenty of conflict".
There's plenty of conflict in the GMH's in the same way there's plenty of poverty in Sweden: it's true from a certain perspective, in a very limited way. However, if you were asked to name a country with plenty of poverty, you wouldn't say Sweden, and if you were asked to name a role with plenty of conflict, you wouldn't say a GMH.
I've hammered this out a few times in this thread now, but I feel I get to refine the thoughts each pass round, so here goes again.
Let's start with some of the most basic questions pertaining to conflict:
"Who becomes my enemy when I have this affiliation? What places are dangerous to go?"Walk out of chargen with blue and purple ink round your neck, and most of the powers of Allanak become your enemy, and Allanak is a dangerous place to go. This doubles if you join the Legion.
Start in a desert elf tribe, and trespassers on your land are the enemy, besides those arising from any underlying historical tensions or border disputes. Off your land, you are not well liked.
Join the Guild, and sooner or later you're going to be at cross purposes with the Arm, and enough other powers of Nak that you probably don't want to declare your affiliation too widely. Anywhere the rich and powerful gather is potentially a bad place for you to be.
Now: join Kadius. Who becomes your enemy based on your affiliation? No-one. And, if you're inked, the animosity toward you in Allanak is much lessened.
"Who are my clan's goals going to bring me into conflict with? How hot is this conflict? Who's involved?"The Arm and the Legion are pretty much bound to work at cross purposes always. The conflict is always a killing conflict. Every soldier is involved.
Desert elven goals can result in anything from provoking territorial disputes to heists carried out on distant powerful organisations which were foolish enough to transport goods within their reach. The conflict can easily be a killing conflict. Every elf of the tribe is involved.
The Guild can enter into conflict with pretty much anyone, based on who they sell services to or who looks like a fat purse. The conflict can escalate to be a killing conflict. Everyone in the Guild is involved.
How about Kadius? Maybe there's some light competition for resources with another Merchant House. Maybe there's a little bit of a tussle over something pertaining to Freil's Rest with a relevant noble. Hurt feelings may result, individual status may be lessened very slightly within your social class, and maybe there's some financial damage. The rank and file may not even know it's going on.
...though, of course, there's also the unequal contest of Kadius vs indies, which basically boils down to how realistic it is for the House with unlimited resources to bully the local tailor PC. It's a conflict where Kadius have no stake to lose.
Maybe you feel like protesting at this point that the Arm and Legion, and the tribes, and the Guild are unusually well positioned for conflict. Maybe so. But even the Byn, these days, gets its share of hatred and distrust in the North; House Borsail is not well loved in Storm. The Tuluki Noble Houses allow nobles to further the interests of their clan via competition for qynars, though I'm not certain how well this works when noble numbers are low. Indie groups can easily get reputations which bring them the dislike or enmity of powerful people and groups, through their own actions or through choosing to deal with undesirables such as half-breeds, escaped slaves, magickers, elven tribes, etc. Almost every other environment in the game offers more potential.
Am I claiming there's no conflict in the GMHs? Of course not. There will always be personal feuds and petty squabbles no matter where you are. There is some small room for clan manoeuvring. They get staff attention, and the staff will put effort into making their clan interesting and presenting the sponsored leader with some challenges. However, their place in the world is that of a comfortable monopoly with no enemies, and that's a lousy place to start a story. The leaders and imms who do manage to make being in such a clan fun deserve high praise, because they're producing delicious meals out of a nearly bare cupboard.
Making PCs craft something makes no IC sense, because you're dealing with an entire virtual House made up of dozens of virtual crafters, including many virtual master crafters. Your PC employee is not the only crafter available; even the room description in the crafting hall spells that out very clearly. If -your- personally-hired employee can't make it, one of those virtual ones surely can.
That was always my pet peeve from the customer's side and from the merchant's side (not when I played my Kadian sponsored role, but in subsquent roles where I was just an unclanned ranger/merchant/whateverelse who got hired and promoted). It used to be, one particular thing was loaded up on an NPC. Then, it got taken off, presumably for IC reasons. But the so-called rare-material- to make that item, was readily available at an NPC vendor as a standard loadup material. The merchant clan turned it into a miniquest, to get grebbers to go to a dangerous place, to hunt dangerous creatures that didn't show up by the dozens, to bring back this item, so that the PC crafters could make it.
If there weren't any PC crafters, the customer might have to wait several months. Real-life months.
For a common item, made out of a common material found commonly in a common NPC vendor shop in the common shopping area in a city.
This was the type of item that should be loaded up on a vendor, if not in the public, at least in the most common area of the clan's crafter warehouse.
I think the last thing we need is to have to force people to wait IC months for someone to be able to get a gurth-shell buckler from Salarr, simply because their last batch of hunters died and their current batch can't skin worth a damn yet.
I am pro "Make all merchant House orders come from PC merchant House crafters."
The problem as I see it:
Hunting for a merchant House, if you are actually a good hunter, is full retard. The only reason to do it is an OOC desire to be part of the House for House roleplay purposes. IC, you are doing the exact same job you would do on your own, you are just doing it for a lot less.
Free food? You are a good hunter. Laughable perk.
Free water? You are a good hunter. Laughable perk.
Coins? You are a good hunter. One hunt will net you more than your month's salary. Laughable perk.
People to help you hunt? You are a good hunter. Unless you are taking down something crazy stupid, you don't need help.
A place to live? You are a good hunter. You can afford rent on your own, and still bankroll more than your House salary.
The only arguable gain from joining a House from an IC perspective, if you are actually a good hunter, is the political backing they give you. Which only comes in handy if you do something to get in trouble or make enemies.
Everything else they offer a hunter is laughable, not needed, and silly from an IC point of view. The only "hunters" who would benefit from any of those things are hunters who suck, and thus, aren't really hunters. They are "trainees", at best.
The solution as I see it:
Make all merchant House specific items craftable by the PC crafters in the House.
Break out the high end items as, "Craftable only by certain ranked crafters."
Low and middle value craft items can be crafted by low and middle rank crafters in the House with adequate skill levels.
High value craft items can be crafted by higher ranked crafters in the House with adequate craft skill levels.
(Please note, rank is like Crafter, Junior Merchant, Merchant, Agent, etc...Craft skill refers to the players actuall skills.)
Provide a list of all items that can be crafted by the different ranks of crafters in the clan docs.
Make sure only crafters of a certain rank can see certain items in the docs.
Provide the recipes to those items in the clan docs. (Since you would know them from NPC's and VNPC's easily.)
Breaking out the items into, "Can only be crafted by certain ranked crafters", will give the crafters an IC sense of accomplishment on achieving House rank promotions. I am a higher rank, I am allowed and trusted to present higher quality House items for higher pay.
It also makes being a higher ranked House crafter an actual desirable thing that will get you clout. Being a merchant House crafter trainee isn't going to get you many glances. But being a full merchant House Merchant ranked PC is going to MEAN something. It means you can get people the good stuff. The stuff the high end wealthy PC's want. You will make more coins, but you will also be a much more highly sought after merchant from an IC perspective.
Now you have a system where crafters know what they can make, and what they need to make it.
Now you have a system where hunters are actually needed, and crafters are capable of telling hunters exactly what they need to make certain items.
Now you have a system where PC crafters are capable of pushing out orders in game in an IC manner that does not involve staff intervention.
Suddenly, crafters are more than "virtually loaded item" vendors for the PC's, and good hunters are ACTUALLY NEEDED.
Everything else regarding hunter pay, merchant pay, realistic perks, and blah blah blah, should just fall into place.
The problem is everyone knows hunters aren't actually needed. It is a broken economy. There isn't much IC pressure to compensate them realistically, because from an IC realism standpoint, they aren't really valuable enough to compensate.
Please note, I am fully willing to take a big list of items that have no crafting recipes and create sensible and realistic crafting recipes for them. Just give me a list and point me in the right direction. You will get your crafting recipes.
Quote from: Desertman on January 29, 2014, 10:14:19 AMPlease note, I am fully willing to take a big list of items that have no crafting recipes and create sensible and realistic crafting recipes for them. Just give me a list and point me in the right direction. You will get your crafting recipes.
Ditto.
Um. Yeah. Except what if what the house needs are not things fun to hunt? Unless of course we give beasts diamond teeth and make them guard trees.
Quote from: Barzalene on January 29, 2014, 10:25:42 AM
Um. Yeah. Except what if what the house needs are not things fun to hunt? Unless of course we give beasts diamond teeth and make them guard trees.
I'm not sure what your argument here is.
I'm not arguing. I'm expressing a concern.
Quote from: Barzalene on January 29, 2014, 10:28:58 AM
I'm not arguing. I'm expressing a concern.
That's what I meant.
I'm not sure what your concern really is.
That sometimes you will have to do things that aren't fun if you are a House hunter?
I've had characters with gemstones - diamonds, sapphires, rubies - try to sell them to Kadius.
There was no interest. In valuable gemstones. From the premiere merchant house who deals in luxuries.
That's silly. And almost OOCly jarring.
If the focus is on forcing PCs to stay at the bottom rungs of society - "nobody is special and if you are special, you get stored" - then it only makes sense to flesh out the bottom rungs of society so that PCs can actually contribute toward it. Feel like they matter. Make a difference.
Maybe all those virtual crafters are busy filling orders for all those virtual PCs.
Quote from: Delirium on January 29, 2014, 10:35:12 AM
I've had characters with gemstones - diamonds, sapphires, rubies - try to sell them to Kadius.
There was no interest. In valuable gemstones. From the premiere merchant house who deals in luxuries.
That's silly.
This probably has a lot to do with two things.
A) Those high end items that would include these super high end gems aren't craftable by PC's. Keeping in mind being able to actually get these high end gems is a relatively new thing. The items that would use them have existed for a very long time. So, it is highly probable they aren't craftable. Kadian PC's don't need your IC'ly found gems. Their gem items are staff loaded virtually.
B) These "rare" gems aren't really rare. I'm not sure why they aren't harder to find, but they need to be harder to find. They either need a lower find rate percentage, or the areas where they can be found need to be pushed out a lot further and be a lot more dangerous.
But, even if those high end items that use those high end gems were craftable, the Kadian merchants who can craft those items have no idea what the recipes are or what the items are to even attempt to craft them. Which takes us back to square one.
We're in agreement, Desertman.
I can't believe I just said that.
(http://i.imgur.com/0surd0b.gif)
Anyway - I know that shifting toward crafting recipes instead of loading items would be horrendously time consuming, but I do think the payoff would be very worth it in the long run, both for the health of clan membership and for the ability to PCs to feel like they can make a tangible contribution.
Imagine if staff didn't need to spend time each week going through orders and loading items!
:)
Quote from: Delirium on January 29, 2014, 10:43:13 AM
Imagine if staff didn't need to spend time each week going through orders and loading items!
Yup, a lot of work on the front end for an overall decrease in workload in the long run.
Quote from: Delirium on January 29, 2014, 10:35:12 AM
I've had characters with gemstones - diamonds, sapphires, rubies - try to sell them to Kadius.
There was no interest. In valuable gemstones. From the premiere merchant house who deals in luxuries.
That's silly and almost OOCly jarring.
This.
I understand that right now you don't have an "active" jeweler (which should never be said) and that you may have a surplus of diamonds (really?!?) but unless you are purposefully KEEPING THE LITTLE MAN DOWN (which I am ALL for) you the Kadian/Salarri/Kuraci should spread that wealth like ginka sauce on the bouncy buttocks of a supple pleasure slave.
Quote from: Desertman on January 29, 2014, 10:45:43 AM
:)
Quote from: Delirium on January 29, 2014, 10:43:13 AM
Imagine if staff didn't need to spend time each week going through orders and loading items!
Yup, a lot of work on the front end for an overall decrease in workload in the long run.
I'd be willing to volunteer time to go through items and make them craftable.
You can't have it both ways. You can't have tension and conflict between GMH and indies and also have cooperation. I feel bad that people in the GMH family roles cannot win. Peoe complain on the boards the the houses don't do enough to shut down the independents and flex their muscles. They also complain that its not realistic to refuse to buy from outsiders.
You can't have it both ways.
Buying raw goods from outsiders at rock bottom prices just makes sense. The more you have, the less everyone else has.
I think 'actually wanting to buy raw materials' and 'keeping the indies down' are two rather separate issues.
Quote from: Delirium on January 29, 2014, 11:17:56 AM
Buying raw goods from outsiders at rock bottom prices just makes sense. The more you have, the less everyone else has.
I think 'actually wanting to buy raw materials' and 'keeping the indies down' are two rather separate issues.
But you have hunters to supply you
Hunters who won't rent a warehouse, blow a Templar and hire crafter's.
I'm not trying to argue with you - it was just an example of why I feel that it would be nice if the Merchant Houses actually had a desire to acquire raw materials that are considered to be ICly rare and valuable. Instead of getting the psuedo-OOC "no thanks" due to not having crafters or storage space.
To use my original example - if Kadius doesn't buy the diamonds, where do they end up? In some piddly nobody's pocket, making THEM money instead.
Quote from: Delirium on January 29, 2014, 11:24:54 AM
I'm not trying to argue with you - it was just an example of why I feel that it would be nice if the Merchant Houses actually had a desire to acquire raw materials that are considered to be ICly rare and valuable. Instead of getting the psuedo-OOC "no thanks" due to not having crafters or storage space.
I don't want to argue either. Sorry. Didn't mean to come off as an ass.
As a gmh leader with active hunters, I would only buy items at a very low price (think: outsourcing to China).
The thing is, when I have played sponsored roles I've tried very hard to make sure that my PC would have goals that are specifically meant to benefit some and disadvantage others. It is an artificial economy. And I think there is always an ooc aspect to each decision. People just have to make the best flawed decisions at any given moment.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 29, 2014, 11:27:58 AM
As a gmh leader with active hunters, I would only buy items at a very low price (think: outsourcing to China).
Which is exactly the way it should be. I think my point is getting lost in the fixating on the example of Kadius being disinterested in rare gems.
The point is to create an actual, coded, constant need for hunters and crafters.
No it still wouldn't be perfect, but if you sit and think about it, people like to feel like they matter, or they get fed up and/or bored and/or disenchanted with their role. Even when they're the little guys. And there's not much support, currently, for making those little guys actually matter to their little area of the game.
Man, some of you sound like you are so bad at business. No wonder you have such a terrible time playing GMH leaders. Maybe try sticking to the pure politicking roles?
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2014, 12:07:50 PM
Man, some of you sound like you are so bad at business. No wonder you have such a terrible time playing GMH leaders. Maybe try sticking to the pure politicking roles?
Well. Thanks. That was inspiring.
Quote from: Barzalene on January 29, 2014, 12:16:11 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2014, 12:07:50 PM
Man, some of you sound like you are so bad at business. No wonder you have such a terrible time playing GMH leaders. Maybe try sticking to the pure politicking roles?
Well. Thanks. That was inspiring.
Thank the Highlord the only ones GMH leader types have to please are the staff running said clans!
/me chuckles.
More money for GMH leaders!
Quote from: Delirium on January 29, 2014, 10:35:12 AM
I've had characters with gemstones - diamonds, sapphires, rubies - try to sell them to Kadius.
There was no interest. In valuable gemstones. From the premiere merchant house who deals in luxuries.
That's silly. And almost OOCly jarring.
If the focus is on forcing PCs to stay at the bottom rungs of society - "nobody is special and if you are special, you get stored" - then it only makes sense to flesh out the bottom rungs of society so that PCs can actually contribute toward it. Feel like they matter. Make a difference.
Maybe all those virtual crafters are busy filling orders for all those virtual PCs.
It's almost as jarring as real life retailers who won't let you sell your old junk. I mean, they have plenty of shelf space, right? It's valuable stuff!
Sorting such goods received from outside tends to be the part where the process breaks down. If the item doesn't have a place to immediately go and be used, it has a tendency of lingering forever.
So it's a realistic concern.
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2014, 12:07:50 PM
Man, some of you sound like you are so bad at business. No wonder you have such a terrible time playing GMH leaders. Maybe try sticking to the pure politicking roles?
Game economy is not modelled on the real world or anything so what's that matter?
Why in the world would I want to spend hours upon hours of time to find 10 diamonds, to sell to a Kadian for 100 sids each...
when I can spend just 1 or 2 hours finding a diamond, and selling it at one of the shops for 1000?
I've also tried selling fancy gems to Kadius. One merchant said they'd get back to me. They never did. The other asked me to come up with a price. I low-balled it based on what I knew I could get *without* the haggle skill, and asked 100 sids less than the shop offered. The merchant expressed a marked lack of interest. The third just flat out told me they didn't need any.
There's also the issue of "why should I spend sids on fancy gems, when I have no orders coming in for clothing/jewelry/accessories that need those gems?" Or maybe they don't need your 10 diamonds, but they *do* need 2 rubies. And you simply don't have any.
At least with the shops, you can get an idea of what they have, vs. what they're willing to buy. If they have "a couple" of diamonds, you at least know they haven't hit their capacity yet. They might not have the sids to pay out today, but they had it for *someone* so if you're dilligent, eventually it'll be your turn.
With Kadius, it doesn't matter. If the PC doesn't need them, or doesn't like you, or can't afford them, or favors someone else's grebbing attempts, then you won't be selling those diamonds to Kadius, period.
Quote from: KankWhisperer on January 29, 2014, 12:37:37 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2014, 12:07:50 PM
Man, some of you sound like you are so bad at business. No wonder you have such a terrible time playing GMH leaders. Maybe try sticking to the pure politicking roles?
Game economy is not modelled on the real world or anything so what's that matter?
If it was I'd be a fucking millionaire.
That's like if you were a lawyer or a doctor and you were paid $50 a
month, but you could also make 50$ an
hour by going to the nearest garbage lot and sifted through it for as long as you wanted and then selling what you find to the pawn shop at an insane price.
A funny thing that tends to happen often enough to my PC. When I find a dead body and sell the relatively average armor I find on the body, I tend to end up with about 2-3 months easy of my clan pay in one shot.
And Lizzie is right, why would you bother selling diamonds to a Kadius who might be looking down at you and just offer you 25 sids per diamond when there's an indie NPC that will buy them for something like 200+ sids per? The fact that said NPC is constantly loaded with every type of possible pretty stones an hour after a crash speaks well of how more and more players are learning how to make money on their own and with relative ease.
Quote from: Barzalene on January 29, 2014, 11:25:57 AM
Quote from: Delirium on January 29, 2014, 11:24:54 AM
I'm not trying to argue with you - it was just an example of why I feel that it would be nice if the Merchant Houses actually had a desire to acquire raw materials that are considered to be ICly rare and valuable. Instead of getting the psuedo-OOC "no thanks" due to not having crafters or storage space.
I don't want to argue either. Sorry. Didn't mean to come off as an ass.
I don't even care about them buying my indies raw goods.
That isn't even the discussion. It was just an example of a lack of realistic supply and demand.
They don't even want the gems/materials like this that my House employee hunters bring in because they can't use them.
That is an even bigger problem.
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2014, 12:07:50 PM
Man, some of you sound like you are so bad at business. No wonder you have such a terrible time playing GMH leaders. Maybe try sticking to the pure politicking roles?
This may be the only time I have ever seen Synthesis post in a thread where they contributed nothing of value.
It is jarring on an OOC level.
You are super smart. I find your posts to be very informative and useful almost every single time.
Please, more of that, less of this.
I had an idea that might help with the supply/demand breakdown. What if merchant house storage halls had a quartermaster NPC that hunters and crafters utilized?
You could still have some stockpiles of coded goods, but instead of unused things piling up, they get sold to this NPC, whose inventory is frequently depleted to reflect virtual demand. The NPC would pay VERY little, but there would be no markup for buyback, either. This would help give the productive hunters some drinking money, in effect making the clan pay a baseline which active, productive PCs can augment by being useful to the House. If there is a material that crafters need that isn't in the storage room, the NPC might have it.
I'm sure there's kinks that could be worked out but it sure seems easier to implement.
Quote from: KankWhisperer on January 29, 2014, 12:37:37 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2014, 12:07:50 PM
Man, some of you sound like you are so bad at business. No wonder you have such a terrible time playing GMH leaders. Maybe try sticking to the pure politicking roles?
Game economy is not modelled on the real world or anything so what's that matter?
Being good at business is all about knowing the rules, knowing people, and using that knowledge to get money. Doesn't matter if the economy is real or fictional. Some of these posts show a -remarkable- lack of understanding of basic principles of human behavior, not to mention the constraints of the gameworld.
I'm not going to expand upon it, because if you suck at playing the game, it makes it that much easier for me to pwn you.
Which is all to say that maybe--just maybe--the game isn't broken. Maybe you're just bad at it.
I don't think it's very helpful to come in and make sweeping statements that essentially sum up as: "Haha, noobs."
This is, ideally, a thread for discussion and trying to come up with ideas to make clan life more attractive in the long run, not for showing off how good you are at exploiting things.
Quote from: Delirium on January 29, 2014, 01:01:01 PM
I had an idea that might help with the supply/demand breakdown. What if merchant house storage halls had a quartermaster NPC that hunters and crafters utilized?
You could still have some stockpiles of coded goods, but instead of unused things piling up, they get sold to this NPC, whose inventory is frequently depleted to reflect virtual demand. The NPC would pay VERY little, but there would be no markup for buyback, either. This would help give the productive hunters some drinking money, in effect making the clan pay a baseline which active, productive PCs can augment by being useful to the House. If there is a material that crafters need that isn't in the storage room, the NPC might have it.
I'm sure there's kinks that could be worked out but it sure seems easier to implement.
Oh unlimited payout, I'm thinking - no. Unlimited payout = unlimited hunting = depletion of resources. Even if you limit it to 10 per RL day - that means every RL week, 2, 3, 4, 6 hunters will be looking for 70 gurths each. And 70 duskhorns. And 70 skeet, and 70 whatevers. In addition to the independents who might be -attempting- to play more according to the docs and self-limiting to maybe just 10-15 per RL week, in addition to the OTHER clans who have hunters who have no limits, in addition to those independents who do -not- make an effort to self-limit, in addition to the few who inherit apartments with stuff in them and attempt to sell the stuff to cover the next month's rent.
If you do this, you'll have to significantly increase the mob repops. And if you do that, it'll just encourage indies to hunt more, which will ultimately lead to a demand to the staff to increase the NPC merchants' purchasing capacities...and then you're right back to where you started: How to make clans more fun, to encourage more people to join them, since presently, the draws to independent PC play are lacking in clans: freedom to come and go, and income.
I wasn't thinking unlimited payout, more like how the shops work in Red Storm.
The items would disappear on a random, semi-frequent basis, like they do in regular shops now, except perhaps more often.
Who said anything about exploits? It doesn't take exploits, it takes some basic understanding of what people want, what you're capable of, and how those two things can complement each other.
So, against my better judgment, a bit of advice: if you aren't giving your hunters bonuses for getting you the crap you need (and your crafters bonuses for crafting the crap you need), and at the same time you're only offering "rock bottom" prices to indies for the crap you need, you're going to fail 100% of the time. Now, the gameworld might say "you should feel privileged just to -be- an employee of Salarr," but in reality that is going to get you nowhere with respect to motivating people to join and/or stay in your crew. You have to find out what motivates them, and become actively involved in providing opportunities for them to pursue those motivations. The same thing applies to attracting indies to your crew. If you treat every indie as a hostile enemy combatant and tell them more or less to fuck off, you're incurring both a huge hostility cost and a huge opportunity cost. (Now, if your goal is simply to foment wrath, fine...but don't then go and piss on about how unfair the game is because your primary goal is at odds with whatever you perceive fairness to be.)
Now that I can agree with. One of the reasons Shatuka even joined Kurac was because Danu cultivated her as an independant who would bring him stuff.
Imagine what would have happened if he just told her to fuck off?
Personally, I think the unappealingness of clans has zero to do with the economy at all, except maybe for relative noobs to the game.
For vets and middle-tier players, my supposition is that skillgain is the primary driving force against joining clans. As I've said elsewhere (even though Staff offered some sort of cryptic rebuttal that flies entirely in the face of 17 years of experience playing this game), sparring is largely useless for combat skillgain, and clans offer very, very little opportunity for training anything beyond crafting and basic combat skills.
If you want to make clans more appealing, you all should stop twaddling on about the economy and offer some suggestions about how pickpockets, burglars, assassins, and rangers can more easily "level up" in a clan environment.
So far as Hunters in GMHs, I've thought for a long time now that the GMHs need to have a "Merchant House Hunter" pool of resources, rather than sponsoring their own. Like, if you're contracted as a Hunter, you now hunt (and train) with EVERYONE in the Houses. Only after you've proven yourself, do you get the option to Life Swear to the House you want. Instant interaction. MORE interaction. More plots to backstab that annoying Kuraci Agent because you paid a Contracted Hunter to Lifeswear and poison his steak.
So far as Synth's posts, I have to agree. Boredom kills more GMH Hunters, more Noble Partisans, more employees in general. People inherently want to skillgain. They want their skills higher, they want to be more codedly useful. People go out to hunt, to get those skills up, and often times end up getting womped for it. As a leader, you have to figure out what people want, and give it to them. Unfortunately, a Leader PC isn't ALWAYS on when his minions are, and sometimes all it takes is "contact salarri.agent" ... No? Oh, well I'm going to go see if I can find a scrab out in th- OH MY GOD THREE MEKS AND A BABY.
Skilling up is all well and good, and I agree, part of the problem. There is no single magic bullet fix.
I think it's difficult to deny that the economy of the game (or the lack of it) is a factor, though.
Like it or not, for better or worse, the game environment shifted when apartments became more plentiful and automated. Before that, most PCs had no way of storing large amounts of items unless they joined a clan, or they had to go through a lot of effort to track down a Nenyuki. Nowadays, being an independant is far more economically and socially attractive (plus, shared bunkroom vs private mudsexing grounds? I wonder which will win). Clans, meanwhile, have remained largely the same.
I really like the idea of making loaded items craftable. I didn't know this was such a problem for high-end ingredients. The overall skill level of both our crafters and hunters on the whole is going up, up, up, so adding more recipes to take advantage of the highest-tier crafters and hunters is a grrreeeeeeeeeeaaaat idea, and is as close to a magic bullet as I've seen discussed here.
As for other ideas, political changes, who your enemies are, etc... I think can be resolved in game as is, without staff intervention, just staff support. People who have discontent with GMH would be wise to read through some of the posts in this thread that have bolded lines of text!
Quote from: Delirium on January 29, 2014, 02:12:50 PM
Skilling up is all well and good, and I agree, part of the problem. There is no single magic bullet fix.
I think it's difficult to deny that the economy of the game (or the lack of it) is a factor, though.
Like it or not, for better or worse, the game environment shifted when apartments became more plentiful and automated. Before that, most PCs had no way of storing large amounts of items unless they joined a clan, or they had to go through a lot of effort to track down a Nenyuki. Nowadays, being an independant is far more economically and socially attractive (plus, shared bunkroom vs private mudsexing grounds? I wonder which will win). Clans, meanwhile, have remained largely the same.
Agreed on the apartment issue. Playing a Nenyuk agent though - it's a HUGE responsibility. Especially since IIRC, dozens of keys, and everyone wanted at least one duplicate, and they had to be "hand-flagged" by the staff, and you had to worry about getting ganked just so someone could steal all the keys - which would (again, IIRC) result in the staff making the thief give them up because one nobody new player with a lucky backstab shop on his 1-day character should -not- be running around with the keys to every apartment in two cities, no matter how "realistic" it might be. It's game-breaking.
If there were some way for Nenyuk to handle keys differently, I think this'd be awesome. Maybe - continue to have a doorman at each building. And each doorman has *virtual* keys - just like they do now when you walk past. But the Nenyuk agent can demand any key to any apartment she wants, and typing LIST will see what's available AND who is renting which place. Make it so that the players who are *not* Nenyuk, don't have access to the list, and can't get keys unless the Nenyuki has authorized them to do so (such as with the "rent with amos" command).
That way, the Nenyuki is now in control of all the rentals, but doesn't have to carry around all the keys to all the apartments in the cities, so the game-breaking situation of some random noob thief or backstabber taking all those keys is no longer a thing.
Maybe the Nenyuki has her own apartment somewhere, and carries her OWN key to her OWN place..in which case, her key is open season just like everyone else's.
AND - once this is done..
THEN give GMHs just a couple of private rooms right outside their compound gates (similar to what Kadius has in Allanak) that's reserved for the privileged 1 or 2 PCs who have earned the right to a rent-free private, modest (1 room with a built-in wardrobe, bed, shelving built into the wall) apartment with its own entry to the road.
I don't really think Kadius should ICly be forced to buy from independants, even valuable gems, when they have their own workforce to gather them. Why pay for resources twice?
Though I've mostly remained silent in this thread and let the adults talk, I found myself compelled to comment on Synthesis's posts (the ones past "Hahaha, newbs, pwned). I understand practically nothing about economical matters and such, but as far as people matters... I think his posts and Delirium's Shatuka example hit the nail on the head when it comes to matters of "my purposes are cross-aligned with those of this individual". I have witnessed plenty of behavior OOC and IC that, in my eyes, has not really made sense.
Conflict doesn't have to be "always on", nor does it have to be black and white, all or nothing. Some actions may look like you're hurting your own goals, but I find usually these perspectives come from the assumption that a series of short term gains equals long term gains, so the bigger the gain in the short term the more long term gain you can expect, and the other way around for loss. I'm not going to throw in a koan about two monks raising the shades, but instead say that some actions, which may seem to do nothing but benefit those with purposes different from your own, can actually net you a bigger reward than always being that me-first, why should I help you kind of person. I hate to keep coming back to it, because I know very little about what game theory is and have not bothered to look into it much beyond one tiny thing, but the reiterated Prisoner's Dilemma kind of highlights a very real issue when dealing with other people. I'm not qualified to explain it, but I think there are some who would do very well to look into it.
EDIT: A thought I just had while taking a restroom break. The first part of a chess game is not a pawn move, it's getting the pieces out of the box. (though chess is a very limited conflict taking place between two sides on a mere sixty-four squares with very basic rules)
Quote from: BleakOne on January 29, 2014, 03:18:31 PM
I don't really think Kadius should ICly be forced to buy from independants, even valuable gems, when they have their own workforce to gather them. Why pay for resources twice?
You aren't "forced" to. The question is whether or not your hunters could be doing something even more valuable than spending their time grebbing through rocks. You might be saving 'sid on the front end, but costing yourself and your crew a lot of opportunity on the back end. Not every GMH crew has 2 rangers and a warrior to go out and greb shit. If you've got a pickpocket, a burglar, and a warrior on board...sending them out to find rare resources by foraging is going to be an exercise in futility, and possibly an exercise in fatality. Besides, if the resources cost more, you can just charge more for the damn end product, or find some other way to recover that cost. Or if you really can't cover the cost of the raw goods, and have absolutely no further use for the indie in question, just don't buy the damn goods and go on your way.
It's kind of astounding to me that people would even be bitching about buying things from independents, because every good GMH trader I've run into over the years had absolutely no problems with it whatsoever. It also seems strange that people are, on the one hand, crying about lack of interaction when you're in a clan, and on the other hand proposing that you -not- interact with people who want to interact with you (i.e. indie traders). You can't simultaneously have a GMH be entirely self-sufficient -and- promote more interaction with the rest of the playerbase.
Not to mention that every bit of raw material you buy for rock-bottom prices is a piece of material that never ends up in the hands of indie merchants for rock bottom prices, just a thought.
I've never paid rock-bottom prices for anything as a trader, because it's a stupid way to do business with people. I always pay 25-50% higher than the NPC shops, because as a crafter with haggle, you can turn a frickin' piece of shit scrab guts and a branch into a 300 'sid bow, so who gives a shit if you're paying 100 'sid for a single branch? You still make a damn killing off it.
If you go around overtly screwing people, they eventually figure out that you're screwing them, and they stop trading with you. If someone risked their ass to bring you a bag of branches all the way from Tuluk to Allanak, you better be willing to pay for that shit, or you're a giant ass, and you're going to get treated like the giant ass you are. If you're in a GMH and you have hunters to bring your shit in for you, happy days. But if you don't, because your crew is barebones or whatever, don't be a tool and act like you're too good to pay when you don't have the personnel to get it done. And maybe, just maybe, that indie fellow will decide to sign up with you once he branches parry and maxes archery, because he remembers those days when you were paying him 200 'sid for a bag of branches, and the time you cut him a deal for 25% off his first bow.
Why has this become a discussion about making Houses buy stuff from indies?
This should be a discussion about how to make Houses use the things their own employees bring them and make for them in a realistic internal economy so there is a realistic IC supply and demand dynamic between the virtual House, the non-virtual employees, and finally the non-virtual customers as they relate to the supply provided by the previously mentioned non-virtual employees.
No indies. Indies shouldn't be part of the discussion.
(Also not a discussion where everyone tries to prove they are better at playing the game, because I get the feeling it is going there.)
If what you think is the problem (i.e. what the discussion should be about) is really only perceived to be a problem because of lack of imagination, hard work, and business acumen of the people playing the roles...then it isn't really a problem. That's my point. People are complaining about things that they are 100% in the driver's seat to change, but instead they want Staff to come in and change the rules because they're too stupid, lazy, or unimaginative to figure it out for themselves.
I would like to go back to my past idea, and make Crafting in a Merchant or Noble House more appealing. And I don't mean Partisans in Tuluk, I mean full fledged employees with Clan-Craft recipes.
Very very simply, make any non-clanned Crafters able to Mastercraft but with no bonuses at all. Sure, they can make that sword for you, but unless they're clanned Salarri, that sword is just like any other sword. Only a Salarri gets +2 damage, or can have higher crits, or something.
That way, Merchant Classes will seek out clans, if only to make the best items. Even if you're a Borsail Crafter, you should damn well have the expertise to make a truly damaging warhammer, right? Moreso than some Merchant that has been making weapons since he was three, but has never had formal teaching?
Thoughts?
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2014, 04:22:19 PM
If what you think is the problem (i.e. what the discussion should be about) is really only perceived to be a problem because of lack of imagination, hard work, and business acumen of the people playing the roles...then it isn't really a problem. That's my point. People are complaining about things that they are 100% in the driver's seat to change, but instead they want Staff to come in and change the rules because they're too stupid, lazy, or unimaginative to figure it out for themselves.
Seeing as how none of that has anything to do with my recommendation for a change, I will assume you didn't mean me.
Quote from: Desertman on January 29, 2014, 04:17:42 PM
Why has this become a discussion about making Houses buy stuff from indies?
It hasn't. We just got distracted for a bit. Back on course!
At the very least this thread does show that there are thoughts on changing clans to be more popular. Most people have valid points, I liked 7DVs thoughts a lot. Making just a couple of those changed would make then more appealing.
I also have to say that personally when I play in a clan I am more apt to stay in said clan if there is reward and recognition for a job well done so all you leaders who give bonuses on a constant basis as thank yous? You fucking rock! My characters are easily bought by gifts! Keep'em comin'!
Quote from: Riev on January 29, 2014, 04:23:48 PM
I would like to go back to my past idea, and make Crafting in a Merchant or Noble House more appealing. And I don't mean Partisans in Tuluk, I mean full fledged employees with Clan-Craft recipes.
Very very simply, make any non-clanned Crafters able to Mastercraft but with no bonuses at all. Sure, they can make that sword for you, but unless they're clanned Salarri, that sword is just like any other sword. Only a Salarri gets +2 damage, or can have higher crits, or something.
That way, Merchant Classes will seek out clans, if only to make the best items. Even if you're a Borsail Crafter, you should damn well have the expertise to make a truly damaging warhammer, right? Moreso than some Merchant that has been making weapons since he was three, but has never had formal teaching?
Thoughts?
The idea is to make being a House employee more attractive, which doesn't necessarily equal making playing any indie crappy.
This takes something away from indies, but really doesn't "add" anything to being a House employee, because House employees can already mastercraft good items if they get to the necessary level of skill.
Quote from: Riev on January 29, 2014, 04:23:48 PM
Very very simply, make any non-clanned Crafters able to Mastercraft but with no bonuses at all. Sure, they can make that sword for you, but unless they're clanned Salarri, that sword is just like any other sword. Only a Salarri gets +2 damage, or can have higher crits, or something.
In my experience, it already operates this way. People just buy mastercrafts from indies because ... actually, I don't know why they do.
If people could stop trying to shove every single pc I make into clans that are supposedly exclusive and hard to get into, or letting me in, and then suddenly shelving me off to the Byn or some other clan for some reason without any input on my part, clans would look a lot nicer. Also, most clans are high-end, high status, and I need my grit and roughness, harsh desert.
I dunno. Perhaps I've just had bad luck with clans, but 9/10 of my pcs are indies, and usually the 1/10 is either in a low-class clan or not planning to live very long ;D
Quote from: long live miley cyrus on January 29, 2014, 04:32:52 PM
If people could stop trying to shove every single pc I make into clans that are supposedly exclusive and hard to get into, or letting me in, and then suddenly shelving me off to the Byn or some other clan for some reason without any input on my part, clans would look a lot nicer. Also, most clans are high-end, high status, and I need my grit and roughness, harsh desert.
I dunno. Perhaps I've just had bad luck with clans, but 9/10 of my pcs are indies, and usually the 1/10 is either in a low-class clan or not planning to live very long ;D
So very, very true, in my eyes. The aggressive recruitment pushes by clans strike me as rather unrealistic at times, especially when its small-time grebber Taliamos McNobody they're trying to woo so heavy-handedly.
Quote from: Kismetic on January 29, 2014, 04:32:13 PM
Quote from: Riev on January 29, 2014, 04:23:48 PM
Very very simply, make any non-clanned Crafters able to Mastercraft but with no bonuses at all. Sure, they can make that sword for you, but unless they're clanned Salarri, that sword is just like any other sword. Only a Salarri gets +2 damage, or can have higher crits, or something.
In my experience, it already operates this way. People just buy mastercrafts from indies because ... actually, I don't know why they do.
Because equipment exists for reasons other than the coded benefits it offers?
Quote from: FreeRangeVestric on January 29, 2014, 04:34:45 PM
Quote from: Kismetic on January 29, 2014, 04:32:13 PM
Quote from: Riev on January 29, 2014, 04:23:48 PM
Very very simply, make any non-clanned Crafters able to Mastercraft but with no bonuses at all. Sure, they can make that sword for you, but unless they're clanned Salarri, that sword is just like any other sword. Only a Salarri gets +2 damage, or can have higher crits, or something.
In my experience, it already operates this way. People just buy mastercrafts from indies because ... actually, I don't know why they do.
Because equipment exists for reasons other than the coded benefits it offers?
Hey, I'm on your side, what with the roleplaying and stuff. I don't even care about the game economy, blah blah blah. Just thought I'd drop some knowledge from recent GMH experience up in this beotch.
Quote from: Kismetic on January 29, 2014, 04:36:37 PM
Quote from: FreeRangeVestric on January 29, 2014, 04:34:45 PM
Quote from: Kismetic on January 29, 2014, 04:32:13 PM
Quote from: Riev on January 29, 2014, 04:23:48 PM
Very very simply, make any non-clanned Crafters able to Mastercraft but with no bonuses at all. Sure, they can make that sword for you, but unless they're clanned Salarri, that sword is just like any other sword. Only a Salarri gets +2 damage, or can have higher crits, or something.
In my experience, it already operates this way. People just buy mastercrafts from indies because ... actually, I don't know why they do.
Because equipment exists for reasons other than the coded benefits it offers?
Hey, I'm on your side, what with the roleplaying and stuff. I don't even care about the game economy, blah blah blah. Just thought I'd drop some knowledge from recent GMH experience up in this beotch.
Sowwy. That came across much more snarky than I had intended it to!!
What I'd recommend for people who want to make clans more appealing, is to apply for one of those leadership roles available. And hide the bullets to your gun.
Synth I wasn't saying you shouldn't buy from indies ever, just that it's a bit unreasonable to complain about House Kadius refusing to buy diamonds from an indie as being jarring.
I do kind of get a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' vibe off this thread though. If you have a problem with someone trying to recruit your PC, maybe just refuse?
I like the idea of every item in the game being craftable.
It is not remotely feasible because of the double approval/writing process staff go through (there's thousands of items in the db), but it's a great idea anyway.
I wish there was a "raw materials" npc standing outside GMH compounds, buying lots of materials from hunters and traders for tiny prices (like 1,2 coins a hide and 15 coins for a fancy rock). It would also be nice if these materials then became available to the pc crafters of the House. If this was the only way that indies had to unload their millions of raw goods to npcs, it would be great for everyone. Indies wouldn't have to lug around 9999 things anymore, they wouldn't have such an easy time grinding thousands of coins from the npc market, clans would have access to a wide range of materials (which would really only be valuable if everything was craftable, I admit), and it would be easy for pcs from other clans to offer more money for raw goods, promoting pc interaction.
miley you really need to try clans out before you start pushing them down. some of us are still gritty fucks and your clan experience will probably make you cry a little.
Every time I think about posting, I wait a few minutes, and then either Delerium or Desertman posts almost exactly what I'm thinking. (I will probably never be able to write that sentence in any other GDB thread ever again!) I also like Laura's most recent post too.
I'd wager that NPC merchants, far more so than PC-to-PC sales or clan salaries, are the biggest source of money entering the game economy. And it's a little weird, when you think about it, that almost every merchant in the game is also running some sort of pawn shop. Often times I think PCs visit shops more to sell stuff than they do to actually buy! And this fact puts clanned characters at a disadvantage, because by and large they operate under restrictions that don't allow them to take advantage of the NPC money factory the way that independents can. So, I love love love Laura's idea. I even put it in bold to show how much I love it.
Not-Pirate Cthulu and Kitties agree with Pirate Cthulu and Kitties. :D
Quote from: ale six on January 29, 2014, 05:45:39 PM
I'd wager that NPC merchants, far more so than PC-to-PC sales or clan salaries, are the biggest source of money entering the game economy. And it's a little weird, when you think about it, that almost every merchant in the game is also running some sort of pawn shop. Often times I think PCs visit shops more to sell stuff than they do to actually buy! And this fact puts clanned characters at a disadvantage, because by and large they operate under restrictions that don't allow them to take advantage of the NPC money factory the way that independents can.
That is pretty weird when you think about it.
What if Merchant House shops only bought things from their respective House's PC employees at a good price, while independently run NPC shops bought things from everyone?
- House crafters would have more of a purpose (and a greater incentive to buy and collect materials).
- Independent PCs would still be able to sell their own things, but only at certain shops.
- It would make a system where GMHs only fill orders for affiliated people and indies are told to check the House's shop's stock more feasible (a system that would make being in a clan more attractive while limiting indie purchasing power slightly).
Quote from: FreeRangeVestric on January 29, 2014, 04:34:45 PM
Quote from: long live miley cyrus on January 29, 2014, 04:32:52 PM
If people could stop trying to shove every single pc I make into clans that are supposedly exclusive and hard to get into, or letting me in, and then suddenly shelving me off to the Byn or some other clan for some reason without any input on my part, clans would look a lot nicer. Also, most clans are high-end, high status, and I need my grit and roughness, harsh desert.
I dunno. Perhaps I've just had bad luck with clans, but 9/10 of my pcs are indies, and usually the 1/10 is either in a low-class clan or not planning to live very long ;D
So very, very true, in my eyes. The aggressive recruitment pushes by clans strike me as rather unrealistic at times, especially when its small-time grebber Taliamos McNobody they're trying to woo so heavy-handedly.
Those clans are only recruiting aggressively because few PCs are willing to join them despite their supposed attractiveness... hence the point of this whole thread.
Indies don't have to carry around 9999 items. The fact of the matter is, the only reason most indies even have so much coin is because to skill up, you have to go and fight shit, and it's not legit to say "i'mma go spar these scrabs," so they go and "hunt" scrabs, even if they don't need the damn 'sid, because they -do- need the skillgain. Then they go and sell the scrab shit because why the fuck not? There's like a tiny fraction of an indie's life (the first few weeks where maybe they aren't skilled enough to actually kill valuable things) where they need to scrounge for salt or rocks, or whatever. The rest of the time, it's a 6-month grindfest before your skills are where you want them.
Even if you reduce the payout from this stuff, it isn't going to stop them from being indie, because they aren't indie for monetary reasons at all. Like I've said before, money has very, very little to do with the choice to roll an independent PC, so this overemphasis on economic incentives to drive people into clans makes no sense, unless you reduce payouts and forage to the point where basic survivability is a problem even for mid-level PCs. Even then, I strongly suspect that people will simply start to take more crafting subguilds, so they can craft their own end-items...so a year down the road, we'll be having the argument about "indie crafts paying too much, and why should the GMHs buy indie crafts at their shops, anyway?" Meanwhile, all the GMH bosses will be complaining about having zero crafters, because the only people joining clans will be the warrior/slipknife and assassin/aggressor PCs who can't make a dime doing anything else.
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2014, 06:05:23 PM
Indies don't have to carry around 9999 items. The fact of the matter is, the only reason most indies even have so much coin is because to skill up, you have to go and fight shit, and it's not legit to say "i'mma go spar these scrabs," so they go and "hunt" scrabs, even if they don't need the damn 'sid, because they -do- need the skillgain. Then they go and sell the scrab shit because why the fuck not? There's like a tiny fraction of an indie's life (the first few weeks where maybe they aren't skilled enough to actually kill valuable things) where they need to scrounge for salt or rocks, or whatever. The rest of the time, it's a 6-month grindfest before your skills are where you want them.
Then my idea will work for you too - giving you even more legitimate reasons to go out and skillgain, because there will actually be someone who ALWAYS buys those raw goods that are the unfortunate byproduct of hacking and slashing your way through the desert in search of journeyman dual wield! Your facade of pretending to be a "hunter" will appear even more sincere! If he doesn't give you lots of coin to weigh you down, even better!
I think the other issue is that not all players are the same. Some players just want RP interaction (relationships, conflict). Others want to be something or another, and RP from a position of power (or realism, whathaveyou). Still others want a coded challenge, something to brag about.
For type 1s, tavern sitting is where it's at. It's where the people are, it's where the interaction is. For these people, clan schedules and low pay are a problem. Freedom not so much.
For type 2s, they have more control over their own destiny outside of a clan. Will most climb as high outside of a clan as they could inside? Probably not, but they can control the climb.
For type 3s, until clans can offer daily challenges or RPTs like hunting/exploring does, their interest is going to remain outside the walls.
I really think you need to pick which group(s) you're trying to attract, and adjust clans accordingly. They can't all be baited with the same carrot.
Quote from: LauraMars on January 29, 2014, 06:17:28 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2014, 06:05:23 PM
Indies don't have to carry around 9999 items. The fact of the matter is, the only reason most indies even have so much coin is because to skill up, you have to go and fight shit, and it's not legit to say "i'mma go spar these scrabs," so they go and "hunt" scrabs, even if they don't need the damn 'sid, because they -do- need the skillgain. Then they go and sell the scrab shit because why the fuck not? There's like a tiny fraction of an indie's life (the first few weeks where maybe they aren't skilled enough to actually kill valuable things) where they need to scrounge for salt or rocks, or whatever. The rest of the time, it's a 6-month grindfest before your skills are where you want them.
Then my idea will work for you too - giving you even more legitimate reasons to go out and skillgain, because there will actually be someone who ALWAYS buys those raw goods that are the unfortunate byproduct of hacking and slashing your way through the desert in search of journeyman dual wield! Your facade of pretending to be a "hunter" will appear even more sincere! If he doesn't give you lots of coin to weigh you down, even better!
Yeah, but the point is to get people into the clans...so your idea won't work at all.
I think there are several players who play mostly indies for personal reasons and logistics that have nothing to do with the game. Like - someone who can only play a couple hours every week, and doesn't want to have to spend those few hours looking for his clannies so he can do fun stuff with them, or worse - be stuck spending those few hours sparring. Every week, because every time they manage to log on, it's time to spar. Or even worse - they log on hoping to get a little sparring in, and it's the day off and everyone's at the bar, and then it'll be night IG, and then it's time for them to log out because their play times are so limited. And they can't ever attend RPTs for their clan - so it's just drudgery.
Logistics: you're playing when your clan boss is NOT playing. You're supposed to report goings on to your clan boss - but you never can, because you don't play at the same time. He can't promote, give you a bonus, punish you for screwing up, or learn that your co-clannie is lying to him and that it's you, not him, who's done all that work and made all those kryl-shell anklets, and therefore it's you, not him, who should be getting the commission.
Nothing you can do about this, but it sounds like the people who don't play in clans for these kinds of reasons, might end up getting the shaft if most of the ideas presented thus far were ever implemented.
Quote from: evilcabbage on January 29, 2014, 05:34:36 PM
miley you really need to try clans out before you start pushing them down. some of us are still gritty fucks and your clan experience will probably make you cry a little.
Oh, I'm sure most clan experiences are not so bad. I have some good clan memories. Its recruitment and having to work to stay indie that's grinding my gears.
I haven't played for a while, for various reasons, but I hope nobody minds if I offer my $.02 anyway:
Being in a clan should be a thing of prestige. A Kadian hunter should be able to look down his nose at the grubby scavengers pretending to be so-called independent hunters. A Salari crafter should be in an entirely different class of demand than the amateur banging some rocks together and calling it a sword. A Tor Scorpion should have the absolute best equipment and training the Academy can provide, and mechanically should destroy an independent merc.
What if prices in the merchant stalls were sharply adjusted such that a clanned hunter/crafter could get the best prices for his wares (the current prices), and the unclanned received something like 50% (or 75% even) less than current prices? In fact, it could work across all stalls: a Kadian stall is going to value the work of a Kuraci crafter higher than an independent, just due to reputation.
I know the crafters/hunters aren't supposed to sell their wares to the stalls -- but why not? Instead of salary, you get the heavy selling bonus. The drama comes in when you have to ~keep~ that cozy job. You have a boss, and in order to stay a Kadian crafter with all the perks, you need to make sure that boss stays happy. There's limited slots for crafters per leader, let's say. There could be in-fighting and competition to get a slot and keep it.
[Off-peak people could be given a merchant house commission as a crafter by an NPC leader, with a mandate to provide X, Y, Z. The player would largely be responsible for ensuring the mandate is filled.]
Noble House roles could provide even more of an advantage, with a higher price tag and stiffer competition for the roles. Easiest example is a Scorpion -- once your PC graduates the Academy and takes a life oath, he gets access to the absolute best armor in the game -and- a massive bonus to his combat stats. Noticeably, the Scorpions should be the best fighters in the South. (Conversely, a noble house employee who turns traitor should be public enemy #1.) If the position grants a real in-game advantage, people will fight over it. That's makes for fun times. A Tor leader could hold contests to determine Academy hires, and at graduation make them all fight to the death to figure out who the new Scorpion is going to be.
Then, once he's a Scorpion, a PC should be able to use the position to it's fullest. He's not some grub marching in formation. He's a the elite of the elite, and should be able to offer his services (for a fee of favors) to the other Houses and militia, or just go off and organize his own thing.
Other noble house roles should operate similarly -- massive advantages that an independent code-wise cannot match, at a price of a having to impress a noble boss enough to get a limited slot.
I don't believe changes are needed.
I fear I'm going to be spamming the thread with several posts here.
First up, a note: the whole selling to shops thing is an OOC convenience to get round PC lack of access to the thriving VNPC market that the NPC vendors are making their living off. It's not really a pawn shop scenario, it just compensates for the fact that you're not going to be able to stop a passing VNPC and sell them the beautiful wooden dinner plate you made (and good luck making a living off selling dinner plates to PCs).
Second up, another note: I've recently been playing in a spot which is supposed to be indie heaven, and I estimate four-fifths of the players I'm running into are clanned, mostly in the GMHs. Given my feelings on the GMHs expressed somewhat strongly earlier in the thread, I'm strongly of the opinion that all those RPers locked up in GMH limbo is a damned shame and that we'd be better served by a thread about how to get the poor souls out again.
Right. Now back to the thread title. "How to make clans more appealing?". The title is not "How to drive more players into clans?". There's a key difference. If clans are in fact a killjoy experience for people, by degrading the indie experience to the point they pretty much have to play in clans to get by, you've given them a good reason to quit the game. "How to get indie players to quit the game?". I could probably cull a pretty good thread's worth of responses to that topic out of suggestions here. Speaking personally, I don't want the game to turn into Silkageddon: Tales of the Monopolists.
James de Monet's post is great, and captures some good reasons to not be in clans; Synthesis and Lizzie have added others; I've some of my own and there have been some mentioned already. I'll try to collate them.
1 ). Roleplay opportunities are restricted.
Clan schedules stop you meeting up with the cool role-players.
2 ). Status is attained without working for it.
The most boring rags-to-riches tale possible is, "I was sitting in the bar, down to my last three sids, and then a Salarri recruiter made me an offer. Now I'm part of one of the most prestigious clans in the Known!"
3 ). Action and excitement are lacking.
Where's the conflict at? Tip: not Kadius. At least exploring can produce enough danger to make for a cool story. And we're here for cool stories, right? Obligatory Rindan thread link: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,15055.0.html
4 ). Lack of playing time.
Schedules are killing the joy when you do get to log in, and never getting to make any of the RPTs.
5 ). Too much playing time.
Schedules and other restrictions kill the joy when there's nobody else around. Note also that your perceptions of rich indies may well be coloured by running into the guy avoiding clans for this reason but making sid 12 hours a day.
6 ). Skilling up is faster outside a clan.
I can't speak for this myself, but Synthesis seems to speak pretty authoritatively here.
7 ). Many clans make it tricky to stay gritty.
It's hard to actually experience the tension of struggling to get by when recruiters are battering down your door with offers of free food for life. And grit's hard come by in many clans. The Byn, the Guild and a few others are honourable exceptions.
8 ). Meaningless jobs.
GMH hunters, crafters; see earlier in the thread for a full discussion.
9 ). Lack of privacy.
Clan compounds are decidedly worse than having your own apartment. There's no sense of ownership and no private space to plot in.
10). The money's better outside.
Nobody yet has claimed this motivates them, but there seems to be a common belief it motivates other people.
Frankly, I think the focus on 10) is a massive waste of time. Trying to resolve 10) is hard because of 5) and any resolution makes 2) and 7) even worse. More than that, rich indies don't have a lot to do with their money but buy overpriced loaded gear from the GMHs and hire poorer players to do things that offer opportunities for cool RP. While I'm all for cutting down on the first, I think the second makes more cool stories than come out of the Merchant Houses without imm input.
Similarly, I don't think making the Houses more prestigious or giving them the power to churn out even more overpowered kit does anything good. It doesn't fix the day to day issues which affect much of this list.
What do I think would help? Well, that'll need another post.
Quote from: Scarecrow on January 30, 2014, 04:16:21 AM
I don't believe changes are needed.
This would be easy to implement.
I don't think things are so broken. I think it's difficult when a clan has been left without a leader for a while and you need to kick start it. It's hard. But once leaders get momentum it gets easier.
Earlier this year there were a lot of ideas about thing that were weighted toward increasing the influence of the independent. Markets and stalls and communal halls etc. I don't like them. (That is a subjective assessment.)
I've played a few indies. (Not many. I like having that built in social experience, but even more I like having that built in social context. Being a soldier is definitive. Being a noble aide is a role that has a clear place in the world. Being in a merchant house gives you a place to build your character from.) Clearly indies are valid roles. And there are lots of reasons to play outside of clans. But I think clans define the world. And I'm old and I don't like when things change. I remember when the.... anyway.
I feel sort of bad about Quirk's posts. They seem so ... harsh. Clans suck! Clans suck! Ow. They don't. I think there is a lot of room for both the clanned and unclanned. And different times and places and people will respond differently. It won't always be Danu and Shatuka and it won't always be Pearl Terash and it won't always be poor dead dwarves who were disappeared once they got too awesome. It will be different each time.
Right now indie heaven looks too clanned. But last year, ... things skewed the other way. It all may be self-adjusting.
But if we keep building warehouses and markets and communal crafting halls and rentable sparring rings, things may be weighted too heavily away from something that self corrects. Same thing the other way with taxes and so forth.
I do like the banking ideas listed above. I do like the room idea (sort of, I'd prefer that there be more daily rentals available for people to find temporary privacy and less sequestering away from other players for extended periods of time.) I like the idea of food being easier to attain for the new character but absolute success more challenging. It should be hard to challenge the powers that be. If it is easy, it's less fun.
Quote from: Quirk1 ). Roleplay opportunities are restricted.
Clan schedules stop you meeting up with the cool role-players.
Make schedules only a thing that clannies follow as a means to meet with each other and this problem is essentially solved. It makes no IC sense to eliminate schedules from the militaristic clans or from clans with a lot of players in them as it keeps them together. And "cool" roleplayers can be in clans as well.
Quote2 ). Status is attained without working for it.
The most boring rags-to-riches tale possible is, "I was sitting in the bar, down to my last three sids, and then a Salarri recruiter made me an offer. Now I'm part of one of the most prestigious clans in the Known!"
Not really. In practice, status is attained when you rank up beyond the very first recruit/probation rank. A hump that is actually a challenge for many players to get over, given that this takes at least 6 RL weeks in most clans and the average PC lifespan is probably closer to 2.
Quote3 ). Action and excitement are lacking.
Where's the conflict at? Tip: not Kadius. At least exploring can produce enough danger to make for a cool story. And we're here for cool stories, right? Obligatory Rindan thread link: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,15055.0.html
Noble Houses have conflict with each other. There is also internal clan conflict between members of the same clan - competition for promotions, the employer's favor, or simple dislike for one another. The Byn is basically paid to have conflicts with other people or things. The militias have conflicts with criminals and the opposite city.
If you want to talk about GMH conflict, yeah, GMHs probably aren't going to duke it out with each other because the monopolies are set. There's still scheming, looking for (and fighting for) new resources, and potentially conflict between GMHs and tribes that believe they own some land and everything that can be found on it.
Quote4 ). Lack of playing time.
Schedules are killing the joy when you do get to log in, and never getting to make any of the RPTs.
The first actual issue on your list that I agree exists. But a clan schedule isn't the root cause of the problem here. It's that a limited playtime means that your interaction with fellow employees and your employer is going to be based largely on how lucky you get. But that's the case if you're independent too, when it comes to finding interaction with other players.
Quote5 ). Too much playing time.
Schedules and other restrictions kill the joy when there's nobody else around. Note also that your perceptions of rich indies may well be coloured by running into the guy avoiding clans for this reason but making sid 12 hours a day.
I mentioned on the first page that we should all decide to ignore clan schedules if no one else is around, and do whatever your employer allows you to do when this is the case. That being said, employers should set a series of activities their employees can do when no one is around. Many do this already.
Quote6 ). Skilling up is faster outside a clan.
I can't speak for this myself, but Synthesis seems to speak pretty authoritatively here.
And getting into plots with a city-wide or world-wide scope is faster inside a clan. What is this game actually about for any particular player? A player that prefers to skill up will find the best way to do that, and a player who prefers entry into big plots will find the best way to do that too.
Quote7 ). Many clans make it tricky to stay gritty.
It's hard to actually experience the tension of struggling to get by when recruiters are battering down your door with offers of free food for life. And grit's hard come by in many clans. The Byn, the Guild and a few others are honourable exceptions.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, clans are recruiting aggressively because these clans are ICly appealing, yet no one is clamoring to get in. If there was more competition to get into a clan, there would be less recruiting, less offering and less announcements.
Quote8 ). Meaningless jobs.
GMH hunters, crafters; see earlier in the thread for a full discussion.
I don't really have an opinion about this except making it so GMH crafters have access to their shop's stock somehow. Whether by making it so that crafters can put something in a room and it goes up for sale, or making it so that only GMH crafters can sell to GMH shops. Changing that for crafters would give hunters more of a goal to focus on.
Quote9 ). Lack of privacy.
Clan compounds are decidedly worse than having your own apartment. There's no sense of ownership and no private space to plot in.
You talked about grit a couple of points above... apartment is a luxury. This is not a luxury that clan members get right off the bat. Finding or paying for a private space to plot in is thus part of a regular challenge of playing.
Quote10). The money's better outside.
Nobody yet has claimed this motivates them, but there seems to be a common belief it motivates other people.
If you're of the belief that indies remain indie to skill, then money makes skilling sustainable.
Sorry to double-post, but I also want to mention something that came to my mind earlier, and I don't think it was mentioned in this thread.
The player-base can get pretty stretched thin over the whole world. There are a lot of clans and a big problem that clans have is not having enough players, which might make people shy away from joining those clans. In my opinion this is doubly true in Tuluk, where there are far more clans to be a member of and two types of official association, and Tuluki society rather depends on all of these (bards, Legions, noble houses, GMHs and partisans) being reasonably full.
A good fix for clans might simply be for players to vote regularly. Get more new blood into Armageddon and you get more PCs in the pool that clans hire from. More PCs means more competition for limited spots in clans, driving up the standards that any individual PC needs to show in order to get into one, and stay in one.
So, some things I think would help:
Find some way to relax schedules for clans with small numbers of PCs.
- I think tight schedules make for a lot of dissatisfaction. If your playing time greatly exceeds your other clan mates, or is much less, or you're in a clan with a couple of PCs you don't greatly care to interact with most the time, schedules hurt. They may make IC sense in military clans, but making IC sense can be a trap: it would make perfect IC sense to have more latrines existing in the built world, but it wouldn't add very much to the game.
Make apartments easier to come by for the clanned.
- This does privilege the clanned even more and pushes them further above the gritty levels of the game. I think though there are two separate problems: one is that clans hire people indiscriminately and thus make a mockery of the supposedly desirable privilege and status of being in a clan, and the second is that being in a clan isn't really all that awesome perks-wise compared with being a successful indie with your own apartment. This reduces the impact of the second, though the first still needs addressed: while being a successful indie takes time and effort, and getting into a clan is as easy as saying "yes" to a recruiter as you stumble out of the new character spawn, it feels wrong to me to insist that the perks worked for in one case should be handed out for free in the second.
Cut down on meaningless jobs.
- Either retire the hunters of Salarr into being virtual, or make their work have more meaning. Lots of ideas have been tossed about regarding this already. It probably deserves its own thread.
Give clans more meaningful challenges.
- A monopoly without enemies is a dull place to start a story. That doesn't mean a dull ending, but if we can improve the start then I think more people will come along for the ride.
A sample idea:
Kadius is thrown out of Allanak! Rumours abound that a high-ranking member of the House was caught leaving the city with scrolls detailing planned army movements, and the Highlord himself was involved in the decision. The vacuum left by Kadius' departure is at first filled by competing PC and VNPC enterprises - can Kadius smuggle in its goods and impose its strength on the upstarts without having official sanction? (Room is made in the longer term for new mid-sized clans, elven tribes, etc). Meanwhile, local tensions arise in Freil's Rest between Kadius and the qynar's governor. How will Kadius assert control over its home ground?
I think a few people are getting "there is no conflict/interaction between clans" confused with "Through my one pair of PC eyes in a world of 300ish PCs, I don't see any conflict/interaction."
Of Murder Corruption and Betrayal, all thee can take place and have massive consequences on the game world without more than two or even one PC being in the know. Tuluk, for example, prides itself on anything of the sort being done behind the scenes/under the table, and even in Allanak, it's not always (I would even say hardly ever) a good idea to go about causing trouble for all to see.
Quote from: QuirkI think though there are two separate problems: one is that clans hire people indiscriminately and thus make a mockery of the supposedly desirable privilege and status of being in a clan, and the second is that being in a clan isn't really all that awesome perks-wise compared with being a successful indie with your own apartment.
The IC ideal is that clans are exclusive one-in-a-lifetime kind of opportunities. Like a computer scientist landing a job at Google or a particle physicist getting to work at CERN.
The OOC ideal is that clan leaders want players in their clans. It would be great if hiring was more discriminate but the nature of the game demands a bit of openness in allowing players to join clans. There's no mockery - just a general desire to bring people together for plots.
What actually happens in-game is more of a balance between these two ideals. Players can join clans, but they don't get the best perks until they have remained in the clan for a while.
I'm also concerned that an apartment is being presented as a measure of success. There are numerous private areas in the game that aren't apartments but do serve well for secret stuff.
Ok, just thought I'd weigh in again here. I don't have a lot of experience with clans outside the Byn and a brief stint in the Fist. I am in a non-military clan, which supposedly has a schedule somewhere, but I just do what I want, screw it, the second I can't, I'm leaving. The aggressive push for PCs is really unnecessary because PCs do want to join, it's just a matter of keeping your hunters alive and training long enough to have a decent number of them, and having the patience to wait, and keeping your crafters from getting bored to tears and frustrated with people crying about "Where are my orders? It's been months!". I have seen some approaches to recruiting I don't necessarily agree with, but I will not go into specifics. Someone should WANT to join your clan, because let's face it, you're badass and so are the perks. Just because it doesn't happen now doesn't mean everyone else is a rich, fat-cat indie wearing silks and dining on expensive food, it means you're competing with other clans, you have the local militia, the other GMHs, Noble Houses, and if you're in Nak, you have to compete with the black hole that is the Byn. It's certainly not easy, but it's doable, it just requires patience.
I do think some pay would be nice, but I'm sure if you civilly try to work something out with your employer they will be understanding. If they are not then maybe you shouldn't work for them and they can solo RP being a badass in an empty compound, hey, if that's how you get your jollies, who am I to judge? I do think some privacy would be nice, although mudsex in areas with open clan access is always a thrill. I do think some RPTs would be fun, yes, but first you must have the numbers and not be over-ambitious with what you plan, because you know the admins are going to have the environment respond very much to the movement of your group, and it's just good to consider "ok, at this time, what do we have the resources to -reasonably- do?", or you end up with a bunch of dead clannies and you start over again. Hell, they'll come after you even if you didn't plan an RPT, they're some awesome volunteers out to make sure you have a good time, even if that good time involves a mantis head, lots of cursewords, and a bit of crying.
Just my current thoughts, feel free to ignore, you were probably going to do that without my saying so, but if you are then it really doesn't matter anyway because you skimmed this.
Quote from: Cutthroat on January 30, 2014, 08:23:42 AM
Not really. In practice, status is attained when you rank up beyond the very first recruit/probation rank. A hump that is actually a challenge for many players to get over, given that this takes at least 6 RL weeks in most clans and the average PC lifespan is probably closer to 2.
Yes, really. Going from indie to entry-level GMH employee is a full jump in the Tuluki caste system. Making enough contacts in game as an indie to effectively overcome this and matter more to the people that matter takes a long time. In that time, the GMH employee can jump another rank without any real need for imagination on their part simply by turning up in accord with the schedule on a fairly regular basis.
Quote from: Cutthroat on January 30, 2014, 08:23:42 AM
Noble Houses have conflict with each other. There is also internal clan conflict between members of the same clan - competition for promotions, the employer's favor, or simple dislike for one another. The Byn is basically paid to have conflicts with other people or things. The militias have conflicts with criminals and the opposite city.
If you want to talk about GMH conflict, yeah, GMHs probably aren't going to duke it out with each other because the monopolies are set. There's still scheming, looking for (and fighting for) new resources, and potentially conflict between GMHs and tribes that believe they own some land and everything that can be found on it.
Yes: the point here is that most of the GMH-level conflict is pretty lackluster compared to what you can foment with a group of PCs who don't have ties to an existing clan. I think I've posted on this topic at length enough already.
Quote from: Cutthroat on January 30, 2014, 08:23:42 AM
The first actual issue on your list that I agree exists. But a clan schedule isn't the root cause of the problem here. It's that a limited playtime means that your interaction with fellow employees and your employer is going to be based largely on how lucky you get. But that's the case if you're independent too, when it comes to finding interaction with other players.
The schedule is absolutely a major cause of the problem here. It's generally going to be easier to find interaction as an indie going to taverns than it is to find it in a clan that isn't booming, and your clan might go from booming to empty in just a few hours of you getting to play in it.
Quote from: Cutthroat on January 30, 2014, 08:23:42 AM
And getting into plots with a city-wide or world-wide scope is faster inside a clan. What is this game actually about for any particular player? A player that prefers to skill up will find the best way to do that, and a player who prefers entry into big plots will find the best way to do that too.
Big plots move slow. If you're roleplay-focused, I think it can be argued strongly that being in some clans will worsen your game experience in the large.
Quote from: Cutthroat on January 30, 2014, 08:23:42 AM
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, clans are recruiting aggressively because these clans are ICly appealing, yet no one is clamoring to get in. If there was more competition to get into a clan, there would be less recruiting, less offering and less announcements.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, currently my little slice of indie heaven is stuffed full of clanned, and they don't appear to be cutting their recruiting back or recruiting more skilled PCs. Competition's doing nothing. However, the alleged prestige of these roles is meaningless when they tie up such a large proportion of the playerbase. They'd be a lot more prestigious if they had fewer roles and were significantly harder to get into.
Quote from: Cutthroat on January 30, 2014, 08:23:42 AM
If you're of the belief that indies remain indie to skill, then money makes skilling sustainable.
Not while you can get all the food and water you want in the wilds. The complaint isn't that indies can sustain themselves (and arguing that indies shouldn't be able to sustain themselves would be, I submit, crushingly stupid), but that they have too much spare coin going round.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 30, 2014, 09:27:46 AM
Of Murder Corruption and Betrayal, all thee can take place and have massive consequences on the game world without more than two or even one PC being in the know. Tuluk, for example, prides itself on anything of the sort being done behind the scenes/under the table, and even in Allanak, it's not always (I would even say hardly ever) a good idea to go about causing trouble for all to see.
And that's a problem. If clan-wide conflict involves just two PCs and nobody else finds out about it, it's about as much use as a chocolate teapot as far as providing story hooks to the rest of the playerbase goes.
If you actually play in a clan in Tuluk or Allanak, clan-wide conflict (inter-clan and intra-clan) almost never involves just two PCs and player actions tend to have ripple effects as well as dragging more people into the storyline. Hooks abound - PCs willing to be hooked, not always.
Quote from: QuirkAs I mentioned earlier in the thread, currently my little slice of indie heaven is stuffed full of clanned, and they don't appear to be cutting their recruiting back or recruiting more skilled PCs. Competition's doing nothing. However, the alleged prestige of these roles is meaningless when they tie up such a large proportion of the playerbase. They'd be a lot more prestigious if they had fewer roles and were significantly harder to get into.
Well, the player attitude on clans swings back and forth in phases, just like many popular things in the game. It may be that clanned RP is in an upswing right now (it may also be that this thread and the previous indie thread are the reason for it).
Another thing to keep in mind is that PCs are exceptional. They are expected to follow documentation and be fairly normal compared to NPCs and vNPCs, but PCs are the people that special things happen to and special opportunities are available to. If you think of things from that perspective, the phenomenon of PCs being encouraged toward clans ICly through recruitment and such is less of a head-scratcher.
Sometimes it seems like players want all of the advantages of belonging to a group, but with none of the social and work costs required for maintaining that group.
To that I say, "Don't take clans for granted! Don't take clannies for granted! And for certain, don't take clan leaders for granted!"
EDIT to add: I've seen significant amounts of this in game, so I'm not pointing fingers around this discussion. And I've seen the game world react appropriately -- eventually.
The solution to some perceived problem with clans is not to join them and then ignore the rules because (for OOC purposes) you can get away with it for a while. If you don't like the way clans are organized on a staff level, don't join. Vote with your boots and be a rich indie.
I missed a few pages, and since one idle comment I made seems to have spawned two threads, I'll at least jump in here again.
Craftables: I'm not really grasping why devoting a lot of time to making everything craftable is really worth it (nor am I grasping why this makes clans better). It really only makes the PC experience for a PC crafter better. Clans have little to do with that. While there are clans based heavily around PC crafting, the lion's share of the role is really around interaction and roleplay. Expanding craftables can be done but a lot of page 4-5 seem to look at this as some kind of magick bullet to make clan roles better. We don't have a staff role dedicated to doing busy work (and absolutely tedious work, at that) and doing 10 per day would be both unreasonable in terms of time requirements and expectations of staff use of time. Dropping in 10 approved crafts when you know the onum of each item that is going into it, the name of the craft, the echoes it will produce, the skill that should be required, any difficulty modifiers...easy. Creating 10 crafts from scratch? More difficult. I'd estimate it to be about two hours of work to make 10 crafts from scratch including all of the creative work in finding things that are actually loaded into the game to be used to CRAFT those things. 2 hours per day makes 14 hours per week. Would you rather have a storyteller dedicated to animation and dealing with your request responses and bringing the world alive...or making it so you can make stuff? Yes, this gets easier with players assisting, and perhaps we can do another push to make a dent in some things, but...the way I see it, this is relatively minor and has very little relation to making clan roles better.
Quote from: Barsook on January 28, 2014, 08:19:12 PM
I think the staff don't want any more new tribes or clans that players create.
Not true at all. We restrict the extent to which players may make their own families because of past abuse. We have no such restrictions on players making their own clans; we are simply not required to codedly support them and they have no expectation of survivability.
Quote from: Desertman on January 29, 2014, 10:14:19 AM
I am pro "Make all merchant House orders come from PC merchant House crafters."
No. Just no, all the way around. Having the possibility of things coming from crafter PCs is cool. Requiring it is not cool. Not everyone likes playing a role where they grind out crafting. Now, yes, there's a code project in the works that would be the best of both worlds (PCs can run orders without staff and PC crafters can jump in and do those orders on their own time if they wish). I think Kurac is the template for trying this out once it is actually ready. It isn't. Just the bare bones of it are ready. However, as it is right
now (with no code changes whatsoever), making all orders forced to go through crafters has little to do with making clans
more appealing. It just makes the crafting skill useful.
Quote from: Desertman on January 29, 2014, 10:39:39 AM
B) These "rare" gems aren't really rare. I'm not sure why they aren't harder to find, but they need to be harder to find. They either need a lower find rate percentage, or the areas where they can be found need to be pushed out a lot further and be a lot more dangerous.
Perhaps that used to be true. It is not true anymore as of October 2012.
QuoteWeekly Update for week of October 14 to October 20, 2012
News:
More of the documented stones can now be foraged for
Code:
Update to handle rarity in forage with increased granularity -- Tiernan.
If there are issues with this stuff popping up NOW with less rarity than it should, that is likely a bug and should be reviewed.
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2014, 12:07:50 PM
Man, some of you sound like you are so bad at business. No wonder you have such a terrible time playing GMH leaders. Maybe try sticking to the pure politicking roles?
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2014, 01:02:49 PMSome of these posts show a -remarkable- lack of understanding of basic principles of human behavior, not to mention the constraints of the gameworld.
I'm not going to expand upon it, because if you suck at playing the game, it makes it that much easier for me to pwn you.
Which is all to say that maybe--just maybe--the game isn't broken. Maybe you're just bad at it.
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2014, 04:22:19 PM
If what you think is the problem (i.e. what the discussion should be about) is really only perceived to be a problem because of lack of imagination, hard work, and business acumen of the people playing the roles...then it isn't really a problem. That's my point. People are complaining about things that they are 100% in the driver's seat to change, but instead they want Staff to come in and change the rules because they're too stupid, lazy, or unimaginative to figure it out for themselves.
While possibly meant in jest, you've restated this a few times so I'll take it as something you mean to say in truth. Here's a response for you: If you're not going to apply for or play leadership roles, criticism of such should be kept to a minimum. It's a shame that you show this kind of intelligence here but won't actually play a leadership role and instead insult people that play them.
The last thing you posted that I quoted does have some merit: imagination, hard work, and business acumen can make a role better, and no amount of coding or structural change to clans can fix that. That doesn't mean that we on staff shouldn't occasionally review code or structural change. It's not an "either/or" scenario.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 29, 2014, 12:38:34 PM
when I can spend just 1 or 2 hours finding a diamond, and selling it at one of the shops for 1000?
This seems like something we should review. Certain raw materials being tossed into a shop makes sense. High-end raw materials probably should not be offloaded to that extent.
Quote from: Desertman on January 29, 2014, 04:17:42 PM
Why has this become a discussion about making Houses buy stuff from indies?
Not sure, looks like about 5 pages are about crafting and indies when only three clans subsist on selling crafted or uncrafted materials.
Quote from: James de Monet on January 29, 2014, 06:22:14 PM
I think the other issue is that not all players are the same. Some players just want RP interaction (relationships, conflict). Others want to be something or another, and RP from a position of power (or realism, whathaveyou). Still others want a coded challenge, something to brag about.
For type 1s, tavern sitting is where it's at. It's where the people are, it's where the interaction is. For these people, clan schedules and low pay are a problem. Freedom not so much.
For type 2s, they have more control over their own destiny outside of a clan. Will most climb as high outside of a clan as they could inside? Probably not, but they can control the climb.
For type 3s, until clans can offer daily challenges or RPTs like hunting/exploring does, their interest is going to remain outside the walls.
I really think you need to pick which group(s) you're trying to attract, and adjust clans accordingly. They can't all be baited with the same carrot.
Hey, back to discussing substantial things! Agreed, this is largely what goes into "what clans should be open" in a place, and it also is one of the most important considerations for documentation revamps.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 30, 2014, 09:27:46 AM
I think a few people are getting "there is no conflict/interaction between clans" confused with "Through my one pair of PC eyes in a world of 300ish PCs, I don't see any conflict/interaction."
Of Murder Corruption and Betrayal, all thee can take place and have massive consequences on the game world without more than two or even one PC being in the know. Tuluk, for example, prides itself on anything of the sort being done behind the scenes/under the table, and even in Allanak, it's not always (I would even say hardly ever) a good idea to go about causing trouble for all to see.
You can't run a MUD on behind the scenes things. By all means, let them take place, and encourage them in happening. You just can't let the game rely on that. Not everyone is going to play a noble/merchant, or even a character with an interest in politics. You
need to have ways to have fun without politics being involved, since that's inevitably going to be where the majority of the playerbase will be involved - and for good reason, too.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 30, 2014, 09:27:46 AM
I think a few people are getting "there is no conflict/interaction between clans" confused with "Through my one pair of PC eyes in a world of 300ish PCs, I don't see any conflict/interaction."
Of Murder Corruption and Betrayal, all thee can take place and have massive consequences on the game world without more than two or even one PC being in the know. Tuluk, for example, prides itself on anything of the sort being done behind the scenes/under the table, and even in Allanak, it's not always (I would even say hardly ever) a good idea to go about causing trouble for all to see.
This is part of the problem. If no one ever sees that clan A is heavily involved in plotline B until the end of the plot, then no one will know how much fun "everyone" (those two players) were having, and how totally worth it that it is to join that clan, until the plot is already ended. And even then, with the typical revisionist history of Tuluk ("magickers in the grasslands? Of course not. there are none, the sun king wouldn't allow that, therefore, it isn't happening, and you aren't talking about it. In fact, I can't hear you talking about it even now."), most of the fun stuff going on, is ONLY known by people in higher ranks of clans. And since most people playing are -not- in those higher ranks, it stands to reason that most players don't know that there is any fun actually occurring.
Since in their minds, plotline-involved fun is not occurring in these clans, the logical conclusion is: If you want plotline-involved fun, don't join those clans. Being a lower rank member of a clan where the higher ranked members are nose-deep in the plotline excitement, and you are left out and being told "Oh no, nothing's the matter, everything's fine, go ahead to sparring." does not make for "reasons to join clans." In fact, it makes for "reasons to avoid clans." It also makes for "reasons to avoid Tuluk" but we're not on that cycle of hate yet.
Quote from: Quirk on January 30, 2014, 07:46:23 AM
1 ). Roleplay opportunities are restricted.
Clan schedules stop you meeting up with the cool role-players.
There are about 4 clans that have schedules and I think most of them make sense; they all should have caveats in them for when no one is around inside the clan to interact with, though.
Quote
2 ). Status is attained without working for it.
The most boring rags-to-riches tale possible is, "I was sitting in the bar, down to my last three sids, and then a Salarri recruiter made me an offer. Now I'm part of one of the most prestigious clans in the Known!"
Every clan you could join is one of the most prestigious in the Known. The only exceptions are the ones at the very bottom, socially, and even they are well known.
Quote
3 ). Action and excitement are lacking.
Where's the conflict at? Tip: not Kadius. At least exploring can produce enough danger to make for a cool story. And we're here for cool stories, right? Obligatory Rindan thread link: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,15055.0.html
What a clan does is largely a measure of what a clan's leadership is pushing; most clans have a certain amount of self-starter expectation for leaders and those in there.
Quote4 ). Lack of playing time.
Schedules are killing the joy when you do get to log in, and never getting to make any of the RPTs.
See above on schedules.
Quote5 ). Too much playing time.
Schedules and other restrictions kill the joy when there's nobody else around. Note also that your perceptions of rich indies may well be coloured by running into the guy avoiding clans for this reason but making sid 12 hours a day.
An excellent point. Can't do much about that.
Quote6 ). Skilling up is faster outside a clan.
I can't speak for this myself, but Synthesis seems to speak pretty authoritatively here.
Skills aren't the end-all, be-all for anything, and while Synthesis can speak authoritatively on things, he can still be not entirely correct. However, even that is being considered in revamps--finding what will reward long-lived PCs in a clan. It will be trialed soon.
Quote7 ). Many clans make it tricky to stay gritty.
It's hard to actually experience the tension of struggling to get by when recruiters are battering down your door with offers of free food for life. And grit's hard come by in many clans. The Byn, the Guild and a few others are honourable exceptions.
If you want grit, there are clans for that. If you want less grit, there are clans for that.
Quote8 ). Meaningless jobs.
GMH hunters, crafters; see earlier in the thread for a full discussion.
Counter point: roles are largely what you make them.
Quote9 ). Lack of privacy.
Clan compounds are decidedly worse than having your own apartment. There's no sense of ownership and no private space to plot in.
There's plenty of other options for privacy, however. I'm not sure this necessarily needs to be filled by the clan regardless of what the clan is. To speak to an earlier point, if you truly want grit, you don't need privacy.
Quote10). The money's better outside.
Nobody yet has claimed this motivates them, but there seems to be a common belief it motivates other people.
Already pointed out above that we can look at this.
Really it seems like there aren't that many things here in your list that are legitimate issues that we can review. We can make sure schedules take into account exceptions (when needed) and we can review pay.
I think it's a gross exaggeration to say that all the plots are behind the scenes, even in Tuluk. FW's point is obviously that no one is going to see the whole picture, the entirety of what is available. The more you cut yourself off from clans and plots, the less plots you're going to notice, especially since some of the plots are indeed behind the scenes.
Quote from: Morrolan on January 30, 2014, 10:04:15 AM
Sometimes it seems like players want all of the advantages of belonging to a group, but with none of the social and work costs required for maintaining that group.
To that I say, "Don't take clans for granted! Don't take clannies for granted! And for certain, don't take clan leaders for granted!"
EDIT to add: I've seen significant amounts of this in game, so I'm not pointing fingers around this discussion. And I've seen the game world react appropriately -- eventually.
The solution to some perceived problem with clans is not to join them and then ignore the rules because (for OOC purposes) you can get away with it for a while. If you don't like the way clans are organized on a staff level, don't join. Vote with your boots and be a rich indie.
Most importantly, don't take
ME for granted. :P
EDIT: Just to make absolutely clear, I'm kidding. I know I'm horrible.
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:17:10 AM
No. Just no, all the way around. Having the possibility of things coming from crafter PCs is cool. Requiring it is not cool. Not everyone likes playing a role where they grind out crafting. Now, yes, there's a code project in the works that would be the best of both worlds (PCs can run orders without staff and PC crafters can jump in and do those orders on their own time if they wish). I think Kurac is the template for trying this out once it is actually ready. It isn't. Just the bare bones of it are ready. However, as it is right now (with no code changes whatsoever), making all orders forced to go through crafters has little to do with making clans more appealing. It just makes the crafting skill useful.
I'm happy with whatever I get. This sounds cool regardless. :)
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:17:10 AM
Perhaps that used to be true. It is not true anymore as of October 2012.
I believe you, but from a player's perspective who has had a chance to regularly come into contact with these items, they still appear to be not very rare at all. Maybe we could go back and look at these numbers again at a later date?
Maybe I'm just super lucky but on more than one occasion I have been able to get more than one of these an IC day, on accident.
I could possibly be over estimating how rare they SHOULD be in an IC sense as well. I'm not sure how RARE a diamond/emerald/ruby should be in Zalanthas. I am really just stacking that expectation against real life "rareness", which I admit probably isn't the best frame of reference.
As to the consolidating the player base idea, I'd much rather see the outlying settlements go before I'd see one of the cities go. The two cities have such different flavors and I love them both. Besides, some people (like me) don't want to be constantly playing around the same other people, and tend to deliberately shift among the starting locations. And I would be grumpy if I couldn't.
Quote from: Quirk on January 30, 2014, 09:44:37 AM
Quote from: Cutthroat on January 30, 2014, 08:23:42 AM
Not really. In practice, status is attained when you rank up beyond the very first recruit/probation rank. A hump that is actually a challenge for many players to get over, given that this takes at least 6 RL weeks in most clans and the average PC lifespan is probably closer to 2.
Yes, really. Going from indie to entry-level GMH employee is a full jump in the Tuluki caste system. Making enough contacts in game as an indie to effectively overcome this and matter more to the people that matter takes a long time. In that time, the GMH employee can jump another rank without any real need for imagination on their part simply by turning up in accord with the schedule on a fairly regular basis.
It's a jump from "nobody" to "slightly higher nobody." Let's not be too hasty here!
Quote from: Lizzie on January 30, 2014, 10:24:20 AM
And even then, with the typical revisionist history of Tuluk ("magickers in the grasslands? Of course not. there are none, the sun king wouldn't allow that, therefore, it isn't happening, and you aren't talking about it. In fact, I can't hear you talking about it even now."), most of the fun stuff going on, is ONLY known by people in higher ranks of clans. And since most people playing are -not- in those higher ranks, it stands to reason that most players don't know that there is any fun actually occurring.
Spoken like someone that has decided what their opinion will be without actually playing there or asking other players if it's even true. It's not, but that's cool, keep going down this rabbit hole.
QuoteSince in their minds, plotline-involved fun is not occurring in these clans, the logical conclusion is: If you want plotline-involved fun, don't join those clans. Being a lower rank member of a clan where the higher ranked members are nose-deep in the plotline excitement, and you are left out and being told "Oh no, nothing's the matter, everything's fine, go ahead to sparring." does not make for "reasons to join clans." In fact, it makes for "reasons to avoid clans." It also makes for "reasons to avoid Tuluk" but we're not on that cycle of hate yet.
You're right. If this truly was what had occurred in Tuluk it would be a reason to avoid it. Here in reality where we're actually doing our best to involve people in a city-state (regardless of rank or even clanning--or even citizenship!) in plots, we worked with the people that were actually there.
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:17:10 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on January 29, 2014, 12:38:34 PM
when I can spend just 1 or 2 hours finding a diamond, and selling it at one of the shops for 1000?
This seems like something we should review. Certain raw materials being tossed into a shop makes sense. High-end raw materials probably should not be offloaded to that extent.
Just to point out: The extent is limited to only 5 of each, and ONLY if the NPC has the sids to pay it. Which - he rarely does. But if he has sids and doesn't have 5, then yeah you can definitely earn your keep by selling a single diamond, once ever RL week or so, and not have to lift a finger to work for the rest of the week. The pathetic thing is, the markup is such that no PC, NPC, or VNPC would ever want to buy these items from that vendor, even if they had max haggle. Why would anyone want to spend 1500 sids on something they can get from a PC for 750? On the other hand, why would anyone pay 750 for it, when your clanned grebbers have to bring in 10 a week? Then again, why would anyone want to play a clanned grebber to bring in diamonds to their boss for no pay, when they can be independent and sell just one diamond per RL week to the NPC?
Vicious circle. I have no solution. But I believe this is definitely one of the issues. I believe that identifying the issues, clarifying them, understanding them, is the first step toward resolution.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 30, 2014, 10:44:12 AM
Vicious circle. I have no solution.
If you'd like to help, you can start by idea'ing the NPC(s) in question so that we can review it.
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:43:21 AM
Quote from: Quirk on January 30, 2014, 09:44:37 AM
Quote from: Cutthroat on January 30, 2014, 08:23:42 AM
Not really. In practice, status is attained when you rank up beyond the very first recruit/probation rank. A hump that is actually a challenge for many players to get over, given that this takes at least 6 RL weeks in most clans and the average PC lifespan is probably closer to 2.
Yes, really. Going from indie to entry-level GMH employee is a full jump in the Tuluki caste system. Making enough contacts in game as an indie to effectively overcome this and matter more to the people that matter takes a long time. In that time, the GMH employee can jump another rank without any real need for imagination on their part simply by turning up in accord with the schedule on a fairly regular basis.
It's a jump from "nobody" to "slightly higher nobody." Let's not be too hasty here!
Quote from: Lizzie on January 30, 2014, 10:24:20 AM
And even then, with the typical revisionist history of Tuluk ("magickers in the grasslands? Of course not. there are none, the sun king wouldn't allow that, therefore, it isn't happening, and you aren't talking about it. In fact, I can't hear you talking about it even now."), most of the fun stuff going on, is ONLY known by people in higher ranks of clans. And since most people playing are -not- in those higher ranks, it stands to reason that most players don't know that there is any fun actually occurring.
Spoken like someone that has decided what their opinion will be without actually playing there or asking other players if it's even true. It's not, but that's cool, keep going down this rabbit hole.
QuoteSince in their minds, plotline-involved fun is not occurring in these clans, the logical conclusion is: If you want plotline-involved fun, don't join those clans. Being a lower rank member of a clan where the higher ranked members are nose-deep in the plotline excitement, and you are left out and being told "Oh no, nothing's the matter, everything's fine, go ahead to sparring." does not make for "reasons to join clans." In fact, it makes for "reasons to avoid clans." It also makes for "reasons to avoid Tuluk" but we're not on that cycle of hate yet.
You're right. If this truly was what had occurred in Tuluk it would be a reason to avoid it. Here in reality where we're actually doing our best to involve people in a city-state (regardless of rank or even clanning--or even citizenship!) in plots, we worked with the people that were actually there.
Erm, it sounds to me like you think I'm talking about a specific incident that I apparently wasn't there to experience. I'm not. I'm talking about incidents that I -was- there to experience. I've played in Tuluk many times, for many months, with several long-lived characters, as citizens pre-and-post geographical restrictions to non-citizens. I'm pretty familiar with the IC "no, this never happened, you're imagining things" route that gets taken, both from the one in the clan who has to tell people this, to the one on the receiving end who has to hear it.
I'm talking about several incidents you weren't there to experience that were actual staff-sponsored plots. Those are the ones I am talking about. Based on your account history there's really only one possible staff sponsored event you could have attended and even that one would have allowed those in attendance to get a pretty good idea of what was going on...not just the leaders. I'm afraid I can't vouch for stuff players are doing in the interim, but even then you can certainly dig and find out what the real story is if you do so cleverly.
At any rate, though:
If things were perfect in clans then we would never do anything to change them...ever. Over its lifetime, Armageddon has changed things a lot with the aim towards improvement (very rarely just to "change" things for the sake of changing them). You can be sure that clans will change in the future. However, making sudden/wide-ranging/drastic changes is not how we tend to roll on staff. If you have a list of 10 things you want changed, it is not going to happen anytime soon. A lot of this is good to hear--we don't hate criticism on what doesn't work, we welcome it. We tend to welcome it more when we have either time or energy free to work on such things. It's even more welcome when we are in a position (even if on a small scale, in even one clan) to enact several trial changes that both make IC sense and OOC sense.
Some very basic things to consider that will be rolling through as a trial in a clan that has yet to be named, though it has been hinted at:
-lifeswearing (if it exists) should mean something, but that doesn't mean it should be the only type of role in a clan
-try to match PC group to a PC structure that is largely autonomous within the larger virtual clan (a trial to see what happens when the PCs you play with ARE the members of your group and your success/failure as a "group" depends much less on the virtual clan)
-create opportunities for options within that group allowing for there to be multiple types of players to experience the clan (achievers, all that jazz). The clan may focus most on one area, but there should be possibilities for specialization
-review the possibility of perks for longer-lived PCs that do NOT want to be in leadership (rewards, training, titles, gear, whatever)
-review the possibility of perks for longer-lived PCS that DO want to be in leadership (can be some of the same as above) without sacrificing the group dynamic
Stuff we've already done:
-apply a schedule but leave it open to be broken by leaders whenever they wish
-create caveats for when there are no PCs in your clan to play with at the moment, giving virtual assignments when that occurs
Once we see how this stuff works in implementation it may be that it will work well enough to be easily applied to other clans. It may not work that way; what works for one is not necessarily what works for another.
Thank you for the feedback, it is very helpful for what we are doing here specifically.
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:46:03 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on January 30, 2014, 10:44:12 AM
Vicious circle. I have no solution.
If you'd like to help, you can start by idea'ing the NPC(s) in question so that we can review it.
Done :)
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:46:03 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on January 30, 2014, 10:44:12 AM
Vicious circle. I have no solution.
If you'd like to help, you can start by idea'ing the NPC(s) in question so that we can review it.
The introduction of that set of materials several years ago was done in a slightly different way, as far as I can tell. Through my own experience, and simply seeing what other folks have, that introduction does not seem to have been done with a set of crafts that spanned multiple crafting disciplines, and had only a very, very limited number of crafting recipes (or perhaps, easily found out recipes) associated with them at all. My guess is the intent was that folks would write up mastercrafting recipes that would utilize those materials eventually.
Without some relatively easy to find out crafting recipes, that can then drive demand for the raw materials to be crafted, one is left with the best use for the materials being to sell them. To one particular NPC, as it stands now. Additionally, it would seem that not only were they intended to be mastercrafted to enable production of finished goods, but that those finished goods were intended to be sold to PC's rather than NPC's. As all these materials essentially get sold to the same NPC, only that price matters currently. Certainly the case when you can't even sell something like a ruby to Kadius, because they have too many of them. And given this high base price for the materials, when you factor in the shop sid caps on shops where you would sell the finished goods to (assuming you mastercraft an item that gets a better price than the raw material), you get some really whacked out economics, and sitting around for the optimal time to be able to sell something.
Quote from: Malken on January 30, 2014, 12:04:42 PM
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:46:03 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on January 30, 2014, 10:44:12 AM
Vicious circle. I have no solution.
If you'd like to help, you can start by idea'ing the NPC(s) in question so that we can review it.
Done :)
Thanks. For IC reasons - I wasn't able to go to that particular NPC and didn't remember its sdesc :)
Popping back in to say that the situation Twilight describes is exactly one of the reasons I would love to see more craftables.
At the very least it would be nice to be able to submit 1-2 objects/recipes for each "uncraftable" item so that they can be used and resold instead of being tossed at NPCs because no PCs want or use them. With a past character I'd hoped to write a few mastercrafts for those items but never got to do it, and relying on PCs to fill that void is problematic anyway.
All clans should have a wagon/argosy to cavort around in.
Quote from: manonfire on January 30, 2014, 01:02:05 PM
All clans should have a wagon/argosy to cavort around in.
Especially elf tribes.
Just an aside to defend my HONOUR.
I don't play leaders because a) my schedule is sometimes wonky and b) I have to be too responsible in real life to bother with being responsible in the game. I like to think I play -great- minions, though...low maintenance, get shit done, train the noobs, etc.
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:31:24 AM
There are about 4 clans that have schedules and I think most of them make sense; they all should have caveats in them for when no one is around inside the clan to interact with, though.
This sounds fine - the general perception on schedules is outdated then, I take it.
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:31:24 AM
Every clan you could join is one of the most prestigious in the Known. The only exceptions are the ones at the very bottom, socially, and even they are well known.
This is something I see as being a problem. When we have about a dozen clans ranking among the most prestigious in the Known all hiring PCs like mad, it tilts the game toward affluent roleplay, isolates elves and half-breeds, and makes harshness almost into an opt-in affair. I feel that if these clans are supposed to be prestigious, they should be more discerning about who they hire.
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:31:24 AM
What a clan does is largely a measure of what a clan's leadership is pushing; most clans have a certain amount of self-starter expectation for leaders and those in there.
I don't think this tells the whole story. Some clans are not in a place where they can enter conflicts accessible to the whole clan and improve their position by doing so. There isn't enough to be gained from open conflict. I think if we asked a brand new player who'd spent a month in one of the cities which clans were in conflict with each other, the answer would be a very short one, and they might not be able to name any.
My contention is that if a leader is dropped into what's essentially a middle manager role in a large monopoly facing no real threats and asked to make life interesting for those under their command, they've pretty much got to create drama out of almost nothing, or dial back their definition of interesting. Playing as an indie, I've been able to hire and send a number of PCs into dangerous or intrigue-rich situations with a mission which mattered to my PC, grown from to-the-death conflict originated between an ally and another party. I've hence been lucky enough to have conflict forced upon me by my affiliations; knowing that out there a particular enemy exists who would quite possibly go as far as killing you because you're associated with a particular group can give you a lot of RP juice to work with and spread around. If, however, your affiliation is more likely to dampen conflict than heighten it, keeping things exciting is likely to be harder.
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:31:24 AM
If you want grit, there are clans for that. If you want less grit, there are clans for that.
And yet, in our supposedly harsh and gritty world, there are vastly more city clans in the latter bin than the former.
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:31:24 AM
Quote8 ). Meaningless jobs.
GMH hunters, crafters; see earlier in the thread for a full discussion.
Counter point: roles are largely what you make them.
If your output is left rotting in a storeroom, there is genuine IC reason for dissatisfaction: why am I hunting all these animals when nobody wants or needs what I'm bringing back? If the items are junked and it's pretended VNPCs got them, the IC reason might be sorted out, but it's scarcely more satisfying for the player. What reason does the player have to try and make a role out of that when there are many more perfectly good roles in which the core activities actually play some useful purpose?
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:31:24 AM
There's plenty of other options for privacy, however. I'm not sure this necessarily needs to be filled by the clan regardless of what the clan is. To speak to an earlier point, if you truly want grit, you don't need privacy.
I don't want the most prestigious clans in the Known to be too poor to find private rooms for their staff. That's not grit, that's merely absurdity. The lack of grit comes about when these supposedly prestigious roles are commonplace and easily had by any human who asks.
There's a dissonance here. These prestigious clans are meant to be the best, joined by the elite, but many of them gorge themselves on PCs, particularly inexperienced ones. They're meant to offer a passport to an affluent life, but the affluence is of a distinctly limited nature. Their benefits therefore appeal most when a PC is new. Keeping that affluence modest maintains the current situation where the way the clans supposedly are doesn't match the way they actually are. Increasing that affluence without making hiring more discriminating makes the world more full of coin, less gritty. Making hiring more discriminating means fewer or emptier "rich" clans.
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:43:21 AM
Quote from: Quirk on January 30, 2014, 09:44:37 AM
Yes, really. Going from indie to entry-level GMH employee is a full jump in the Tuluki caste system. Making enough contacts in game as an indie to effectively overcome this and matter more to the people that matter takes a long time. In that time, the GMH employee can jump another rank without any real need for imagination on their part simply by turning up in accord with the schedule on a fairly regular basis.
It's a jump from "nobody" to "slightly higher nobody." Let's not be too hasty here!
When "nobody" and "slightly higher nobody" encompass much of the playerbase, and getting to be a slightly higher nobody without swearing allegiance to some clan or another takes a great deal of effort, it's still a jump that matters.
Quirk and I agree on something!
Quote from: Quirk on January 30, 2014, 02:11:37 PM
There's a dissonance here. These prestigious clans are meant to be the best, joined by the elite, but many of them gorge themselves on PCs, particularly inexperienced ones. They're meant to offer a passport to an affluent life, but the affluence is of a distinctly limited nature. Their benefits therefore appeal most when a PC is new. Keeping that affluence modest maintains the current situation where the way the clans supposedly are doesn't match the way they actually are. Increasing that affluence without making hiring more discriminating makes the world more full of coin, less gritty. Making hiring more discriminating means fewer or emptier "rich" clans.
The only thing I would add is that grit vs. non-grit should be a separate issue altogether. Right now, you have the strange situation where clans are supposedly, ICly the ticket to the easy, rich life, and jobs that everyone should want. OOCly, however, they don't seem to live up to that due to the reasons we've already been over - independents are able to rake in plenty more sid due to more freedom and lack of restrictions. If we want more grit, maybe the ease indies can make money should be addressed. On the other hand, if we want PCs in clans to actually feel like they are lucky to have their job and be more/just as affluent than their indie friends, we may want to give them more salary and additional perks. Or, we live with the dissonance, but that means the reality of the game world isn't matching our ideal, and I think that's a shame.
Quote from: Quirk on January 30, 2014, 07:46:23 AM
James de Monet's post is great, and captures some good reasons to not be in clans;
Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to give people reasons not to be in clans. I was stating reasons that I perceive motivate people not to join clans. I am actually a big clan proponent, and probably play 60/40 clanned to indie characters (and that number probably goes up to 80/20 if you consider characters that were
affiliated with a clan, just not codedly part of it). Some of these have already been mentioned, but:
For the sake of balance, here are some reasons that I see that people
do join clans (and if you subscribe to strength building rather than weakness patching business theory, perhaps you could get some mileage out of increasing these benefits rather than combating the detriments, though Nyr's statements about coming trials hint at some that methodology, too).
1)
People want to be part of something. They want to
belong. Clans that develop strong fraternal bonds will draw these players in (as do things like family role calls). These bonds have to be built by every generation of clannies, though. They can't be inherited. They are built by such activities as clan socializing, simply deciding that your clannies
are your PC's friends, rather than trying to make friends with your clannies, and trends of favoritism from powerful PC leaders. These can also be achieved in clans with very strict schedules and rules - just make sure that when you go off-duty, go off-duty
hard. It's a work hard, play hard mentality. (Also, as a caveat here, note that you can develop these bonds and still have intra-clan conflict. Brothers and sister fight. This the 'I'll talk shit about my clannies all day, but if you aren't wearing our colors, you better not say word one' mentality.)
2)
Big plots. I don't think anyone is denying it; when you are part of a clan, you have a much better chance at getting in on the big stuff. It doesn't come around as often, but when it does...
3)
Official capacity. You just don't get as much punch throwing your weight around saying "I'm Amos the Hunter, I killed a carru," then you do staring at someone through a savage House tattoo and saying, "I'm Red Malik, of the Tor Scorpions. Who the hell are
you?"
4)
Access to clan resources. Lots of times houses have free gear, free mounts, and lots of other free stuff for those who ask, besides having exclusive access to the best (or entirely unique) types of tools and equipment.
5)
Built-in influence. In almost every clan, you're going to have a leader who can lend you their status to get you out of a tight spot (or into a hard to reach place). Most will be willing to help you out this way if your PC isn't a liability.
Quote from: Quirk on January 30, 2014, 02:11:37 PM
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:31:24 AM
Every clan you could join is one of the most prestigious in the Known. The only exceptions are the ones at the very bottom, socially, and even they are well known.
This is something I see as being a problem. When we have about a dozen clans ranking among the most prestigious in the Known all hiring PCs like mad, it tilts the game toward affluent roleplay, isolates elves and half-breeds, and makes harshness almost into an opt-in affair. I feel that if these clans are supposed to be prestigious, they should be more discerning about who they hire.
Perhaps so, but there is a time and a place for it. Oftentimes there is competition in the same area for the same resource (players) and that reverses the behavior you are expecting here. If you don't snap up a good PC then another clan will snap it up. If all of the PCs suck there is still a desire to at least have some employees/partisans/lackeys that exist beneath a leader. Perhaps one example where discernment works is in the Bardic Circles. When we have auditions we don't necessarily accept everyone, particularly when we're close to a cap on PCs in the group.
If auditions work well for the bardic circles, something similar could possibly work for employer PCs in other clans. Instead of saying you're looking for this or that, perhaps hold an event where you have a public interview of people. Pick the best two. Rinse and repeat when you need more. Public rejection of any comers makes it seem as though there is something being awarded. If you hurt someone's IC feelings, they will get over it.
Quote
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:31:24 AM
What a clan does is largely a measure of what a clan's leadership is pushing; most clans have a certain amount of self-starter expectation for leaders and those in there.
I don't think this tells the whole story. Some clans are not in a place where they can enter conflicts accessible to the whole clan and improve their position by doing so. There isn't enough to be gained from open conflict.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
QuoteMy contention is that if a leader is dropped into what's essentially a middle manager role in a large monopoly facing no real threats and asked to make life interesting for those under their command, they've pretty much got to create drama out of almost nothing, or dial back their definition of interesting.
Your contention is your opinion, but it is based on some assumptions that simply are not true. Essentially a middle manager...somewhat, I'll give you that. Large monopoly--yes, that means they have to assist in maintaining that monopoly. Facing no real threats--ha! Asked to make life interesting--no, they generally aren't, that's a hopeful byproduct of them BEING interesting. Create drama out of nothing? They can, sure, but they don't have to. Dial back their definition of interesting? Yes, we're actively looking for sponsored leaders that essentially do nothing.
Quote
Playing as an indie, I've been able to hire and send a number of PCs into dangerous or intrigue-rich situations with a mission which mattered to my PC, grown from to-the-death conflict originated between an ally and another party. I've hence been lucky enough to have conflict forced upon me by my affiliations; knowing that out there a particular enemy exists who would quite possibly go as far as killing you because you're associated with a particular group can give you a lot of RP juice to work with and spread around. If, however, your affiliation is more likely to dampen conflict than heighten it, keeping things exciting is likely to be harder.
Playing as an indie doesn't give a player any super powers. An indie has less resources and thus less to draw on for actual roleplay inspiration. Being able to succeed without those resources is admirable. Having those resources doesn't make someone automatically a dullard with no ability to roleplay.
QuoteQuote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:31:24 AM
If you want grit, there are clans for that. If you want less grit, there are clans for that.
And yet, in our supposedly harsh and gritty world, there are vastly more city clans in the latter bin than the former.
Play what you want to play, be the change you want to see, whatever. Noble houses are going to be less gritty than the rest. GMH roles at a certain level aren't that gritty. The Byn, criminal gangs, PC-created clans are all going to be more gritty. Tribes at a certain level are going to be more gritty. There's something for everyone.
QuoteQuote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:31:24 AM
Quote8 ). Meaningless jobs.
GMH hunters, crafters; see earlier in the thread for a full discussion.
Counter point: roles are largely what you make them.
If your output is left rotting in a storeroom, there is genuine IC reason for dissatisfaction: why am I hunting all these animals when nobody wants or needs what I'm bringing back? If the items are junked and it's pretended VNPCs got them, the IC reason might be sorted out, but it's scarcely more satisfying for the player. What reason does the player have to try and make a role out of that when there are many more perfectly good roles in which the core activities actually play some useful purpose?
I suppose if you have a problem with this and you are playing in such a clan (and this is an actual problem in the clan), you should bring it up with your clan staff or clan leadership on their board. If you're an indie and are just playing devil's advocate, then you have no idea what's going on with this presently, anyway.
Quote
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:31:24 AM
There's plenty of other options for privacy, however. I'm not sure this necessarily needs to be filled by the clan regardless of what the clan is. To speak to an earlier point, if you truly want grit, you don't need privacy.
I don't want the most prestigious clans in the Known to be too poor to find private rooms for their staff. That's not grit, that's merely absurdity.
Oh, so you're saying that not having that for PCs means that it doesn't exist for vNPCs or NPCs. Well, you know the latter isn't true. It's just the former that is true. That's a PC thing, and it's pretty simple. We want to concentrate the playerbase onto conflict, not divide them into even more areas that they might not run into each other.
QuoteThe lack of grit comes about when these supposedly prestigious roles are commonplace and easily had by any human who asks.
Covered this above in two areas.
Quote
There's a dissonance here. These prestigious clans are meant to be the best, joined by the elite, but many of them gorge themselves on PCs, particularly inexperienced ones. They're meant to offer a passport to an affluent life, but the affluence is of a distinctly limited nature. Their benefits therefore appeal most when a PC is new. Keeping that affluence modest maintains the current situation where the way the clans supposedly are doesn't match the way they actually are. Increasing that affluence without making hiring more discriminating makes the world more full of coin, less gritty. Making hiring more discriminating means fewer or emptier "rich" clans.
See above.
Quote
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:43:21 AM
Quote from: Quirk on January 30, 2014, 09:44:37 AM
Yes, really. Going from indie to entry-level GMH employee is a full jump in the Tuluki caste system. Making enough contacts in game as an indie to effectively overcome this and matter more to the people that matter takes a long time. In that time, the GMH employee can jump another rank without any real need for imagination on their part simply by turning up in accord with the schedule on a fairly regular basis.
It's a jump from "nobody" to "slightly higher nobody." Let's not be too hasty here!
When "nobody" and "slightly higher nobody" encompass much of the playerbase, and getting to be a slightly higher nobody without swearing allegiance to some clan or another takes a great deal of effort, it's still a jump that matters.
It's a system that is meant to be fluid, a chart that is meant to guide. It's not set in stone. Quibbling over this is silly. It is an insignificant jump, depending on other variables. A very long-lived independent commoner with ties to important people but no official affiliation is going to have more pull than the average just-off-the-boat shitty GMH crafter. No one is going to run up and down the North Road waving the caste chart and saying their caste ranking has vastly improved.
Quote from: Quirk on January 30, 2014, 02:11:37 PM
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:31:24 AM
Every clan you could join is one of the most prestigious in the Known. The only exceptions are the ones at the very bottom, socially, and even they are well known.
This is something I see as being a problem. When we have about a dozen clans ranking among the most prestigious in the Known all hiring PCs like mad, it tilts the game toward affluent roleplay, isolates elves and half-breeds, and makes harshness almost into an opt-in affair. I feel that if these clans are supposed to be prestigious, they should be more discerning about who they hire.
I think the prestige of the available clans is causing a lot more problems than people realize. I think we could see a lot more interesting interaction amongst clans if, say over the course of the next 2 RL years, about half to 2/3's of the prestigious clans were closed and replaced with far less prestigious clans. We're talking lower rung than the Byn. Clans that are unimportant enough where it would be reasonable to have players as the topmost officials without risking massive world changes.
Dungscraper's guild, beggar's guild, elf gang #4, human gang #3, The employees of the Gaj
These sorts of clans could be populated at all ranks with PCs without threatening world power balance, yet the ability to be important within these microcosms would likely attract a lot of people. What's more, the few remaining prestigious clans would see a huge boost because PCs that are members would /actually/ be prestigious compared to the PC community at large (you know, the people they role play with).
So I'd propose an experiment:
Write up a low prestige clan and introduce it. Make sure it has some goals, some enmities (a reason for making enemies later on), and a reason for its existence, as well as a few perks over people that do the same sort of thing by as independents (not much, mind you, just a few little ones to justify its existence).
No need to put overly much time into the effort up front, just sit back and see what happens. My prediction is it'll open up a gold mine of rp opportunities. And if it doesn't? Close the clan again.
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 02:55:20 PM
Dial back their definition of interesting? Yes, we're actively looking for sponsored leaders that essentially do nothing.
uh...is this....is this...
isthissarcastic?
(http://img.pandawhale.com/66068-panic-gif-sgeU.gif)
I don't really have the energy right now to pretty much literally rewrite every point that Quirk and James de Monet posted up, but, going by reasonably recent GMH-related experience of mine, every point they make is right on the mark.
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:46:03 AM
If you'd like to help, you can start by idea'ing the NPC(s) in question so that we can review it.
Please, just stop.
There have been a large number of changes over the years, and many of them have worked to suppress player activities. I honestly don't care that a merchant pays out 1000 coins for anything, but you should keep in mind that by reducing the payout, you're only forcing the player to either A) gather more diamonds or B) find another merchant.
The problem here being that A) the merchant likely does not have coin for two diamonds, however much cheaper you make it, and B) there is likely no secondary merchant.
Since there are no alternatives, all you're doing is making the effort less worthwhile.
So in the end, it's just the merchant system itself that's broken. You want a degree of randomness so a player can't come clean it out in one, fell swoop, but the way the current static NPC merchants are randomly able to pay out also makes it unreliable for your average player to come and sell something. It's far from ideal.
If you wanted an improvement, I would suggest taking a place like the Luir's Market Yard or the Tribal Market in Tuluk, and populate it with random merchants every IC month or half-month. Call it the caravan seasons or somesuch. And by random merchants, I mean discrete types selected from a list. Types as in weapons, armor, and whatever. And geez, make the merchants buy what materials they need. They're traveling merchants, so it makes sense.
In this way, busybody PCs can still map out a newly generated market, do their chores, and then head go back to RPing or something. It's pretty nice.
I think it's a basic flaw in the coded shop economy that boils down to only being able to sell 5 of each object.
Theoretically a PC should be able to walk into a market place and sell everything they have on them that is of any value... but those things should be sold for much less. Right now, if you lower the price on things too much, you're completely screwing over the lower-playtime PCs who don't beat the 'post crash market rush'.
That way when you go out on a hunting trip you can come back, unload all your stuff, and take your pocketful of 85 sid to the bar for a drink.
Instead of unloading half of your stuff, depositing 150 in the bank, and taking a pocketful of 85 sid to the bar for a drink. (while lugging a big heavy bag of stones and hides)
p.s. booze should cost way, way less.
p.p.s. Those numbers are completely made up and random, please don't fixate on them.
Quote from: Dalmeth on January 30, 2014, 03:09:53 PM
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:46:03 AM
If you'd like to help, you can start by idea'ing the NPC(s) in question so that we can review it.
Please, just stop.
There have been a large number of changes over the years, and many of them have worked to suppress player activities. I honestly don't care that a merchant pays out 1000 coins for anything, but you should keep in mind that by reducing the payout, you're only forcing the player to either A) gather more diamonds or B) find another merchant.
The problem here being that A) the merchant likely does not have coin for two diamonds, however much cheaper you make it, and B) there is likely no secondary merchant.
Um...the problem here is actually A) this particular bugged NPC is buying things above value even though the code is supposed to be telling it to buy low and sell high, and B) that's pretty much it. The only goal in this one case was to look at why this didn't make sense. We found out that yes, it did not make sense. And now we're trying to figure out why this buggy NPC is doing this. We're not (presently) looking at making sweeping changes. We're not (presently) recoding the whole economy. We're not (presently) throwing in a bunch of shops with a new shop system. We're just figuring out why this one shopkeeper is screwy. Why? Because people brought it up in a thread about clans...for whatever reason.
Holy cow. Chill out, bro, I'm not moving your cheese. :)
a) If you're in a clan you have all the food, board and drink you'll ever need.
b) Clans are run by wealthy, organized people, PC or otherwise. You'll get awesome things as reward, not purchase.
c) Money is unimportant and worthless to the clannie. You only need a few glassbux to buy booze every so often, which your pay will cover easily.
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but if clanned numbers are high right now, maybe that's a sign that clans are not, in fact, places of straightjacketed order, poor RP and no grit?
Having played in military clans and also one Merchant House for extended periods of time and a second for a short time, I'm very dubious about people saying Hunters are so pointless and boring. Keep in mind even low-ranked clan members can have interesting goals and ideas that I've found are usually well received by staff and clan leaders.
Quote from: Zoan on January 30, 2014, 03:40:43 PM
a) If you're in a clan you have all the food, board and drink you'll ever need.
b) Clans are run by wealthy, organized people, PC or otherwise. You'll get awesome things as reward, not purchase.
c) Money is unimportant and worthless to the clannie. You only need a few glassbux to buy booze every so often, which your pay will cover easily.
a) Yeah, if your PC is a pussy who drinks nothing but water for the rest of his life and wishes to remain single as well. Bringing your girlfriend over to sit on your cot in the middle of a crowded barracks is worse than bringing her to your parents' one room apartment. Oh wait, she probably can't even get into the barracks. I guess that's what the curtained booths are for. From past experience, whole families have been made in there anyway.
b) Good in theory, not so much in practice (which is probably part of why this thread exists
c) Tell that to the rest of your recruit clannies who are all decked out in awesome armors and diamond-hilted badass swords, all purchased with their own monies.
More 'temporary' housing would be great. Inn rooms, instead of apartments. Rentable in increments of IC weeks, for up to 3 IC weeks at a time. If your rent runs out while you're quit out, you log in at the tavern's main room/dormitory, having been casually kicked out of the room by the inn's bouncers to make way for the next customer.
Then you crazy mudsex fiends and plotting schemers can have a place to take your ill-gotten booty without having to rent an apartment.
Most folks seem to keep all their valuables in the clan barracks anyway. The only real reason for a clannie to have an apartment seems to be 'starting a family'.
Going to check you under "no" for that idea of creating and raising a family from the comfort of our curtained booth, then, Delly :( Yes. I just called you Delly.
rent backroom me talia
The bouncer says, in sirihish: "You don't haev enough money to rent this for the night. You will need 98 more 'sid."
say "only need it for 5 min"
Quote from: ale six on January 30, 2014, 02:42:10 PM
Right now, you have the strange situation where clans are supposedly, ICly the ticket to the easy, rich life, and jobs that everyone should want. OOCly, however, they don't seem to live up to that due to the reasons we've already been over - independents are able to rake in plenty more sid due to more freedom and lack of restrictions. If we want more grit, maybe the ease indies can make money should be addressed.
People always say this, but I strongly disagree. I suppose that it depends on the time frame that you examine. If the average character only survives 3 RL weeks, I suppose it might be true for players whose characters are constantly dying. The average clan member recruit usually has to spend an IC year inside the city, only leaving with a superior. Meanwhile, the indy is able to go out and hunt and forage. He gets to keep all the profits he makes. If successful, the indy might make ~1000 coins a week. However, the indy has to buy his gear, his mount, and rent his apartment. During the same time period, the indy has likely had a couple close brushes with death (if playing outside the city) or perhaps arrest/jail (if playing inside the city). Meanwhile, the clanned character is getting training, free water/food, free place to keep his things, and usually some free gear.
After the IC year, the clanned character can now leave the city and "do things." She may get an assignment like we need duskhorn hides from his Kadian boss. She has to go out and fetch the duskhorn hides for free. However, along the way, she can sell the horns, the meat, and the herbs she finds along the way. If she can't sell everything, she gets to store it free back in her nearly impossible to rob footlocker. In addition, she gets small amount of free coins from the paymaster. The indy's apartment has likely been robbed at least once. Things begin to swing back toward the clanned character's favor.
Now extrapolate this over 6 RL months, most of the indy's she started with are all dead. The surving indies have a nice apartment, lots of expensive gear which cost them a lot, and their Nenyuk savings. The clanned character has likely been promoted. Now she has her own crew, together they can obtain more difficult and rare materials. There is backing of the clan to keep you out of trouble. Your pay has increased to something reasonable and you should have developed some influential allies or clients.
At the RL year, it's not even close. You're likely the leader in the clan with underlings. Now, you get a piece from everyone elses pie. You likely have an office and a #2 under you. You get serious pay from the paymaster, all the perks, and political influence. When I compare my wealthiest clanned character (a Kadian) and my wealthiest independent (a ranger), it's not even close. The Kadian ended up with a wagon, NPC guards, an office, endless storage space, a PC aide, a junior agent under him, more coins than he could ever spend, and scores of PCs that worked under him during his career. The indy ranger ends up with a lot of coins in the bank, an apartment, and a collection of interesting gear and biographies.
The incentives to play within clans are there and the gains far outweigh 99% of independent characters. I feel a lot of players don't realize this game is meant to be played over months, not weeks. No one ever besieged Allanak with their character they rolled up 6 weeks ago. It's impossible to prevent successful independents from accumulating wealth. If NPC shops refused to buy anything from independents, I could still end of with wealthy independent characters because I'd play a long lived, successful burglar, assassin, raider, or spy. None of these characters rely on NPCs. Worst of all, you'd still be mad because I'd be dressed as and telling everyone at the bar I'm just another successful hunter.
Quote from: williamson on January 30, 2014, 04:58:06 PM
The incentives to play within clans are there and the gains far outweigh 99% of independent characters. I feel a lot of players don't realize this game is meant to be played over months, not weeks. No one ever besieged Allanak with their character they rolled up 6 weeks ago. It's impossible to prevent successful independents from accumulating wealth. If NPC shops refused to buy anything from independents, I could still end of with wealthy independent characters because I'd play a long lived, successful burglar, assassin, raider, or spy. None of these characters rely on NPCs. Worst of all, you'd still be mad because I'd be dressed as and telling everyone at the bar I'm just another successful hunter.
This and everything else.
Only SMALL things I'd change:
1) SLIGHTLY more pay. Maybe an extra 100 a half-month.
2) Allow hunters to sell stuff the House doesn't use, like certain parts to animals
As much as clan housing would be awesome.... Once you get to a certain rank within some of the clans, this is already possible.
Quote from: tortall on January 30, 2014, 05:13:35 PM
Quote from: williamson on January 30, 2014, 04:58:06 PM
The incentives to play within clans are there and the gains far outweigh 99% of independent characters. I feel a lot of players don't realize this game is meant to be played over months, not weeks. No one ever besieged Allanak with their character they rolled up 6 weeks ago. It's impossible to prevent successful independents from accumulating wealth. If NPC shops refused to buy anything from independents, I could still end of with wealthy independent characters because I'd play a long lived, successful burglar, assassin, raider, or spy. None of these characters rely on NPCs. Worst of all, you'd still be mad because I'd be dressed as and telling everyone at the bar I'm just another successful hunter.
This and everything else.
As much as clan housing would be awesome.... Once you get to a certain rank within some of the clans, this is already possible.
And some of you also forget that Armageddon is still a game that the most majority of players are not willing to dedicate months, if not years, for something that may or may not happen in the end. We're just going in a circle now.. For those of us who play indie characters, it's because we can make our own fun/plots/stories right from the start and if things get boring, it's only our fun.
But telling me that things might be exciting to me IF I stick to a clan for months is certainly not going to convince me to join a clan, thus, you are not making clans more appealing to me. Which is the title of said thread.
Make it more appealing to me to join a clan, not tell me that the way I play Armageddon is the wrong way.
(This thread has some good ideas, though, because I'm much less anti-clan than I was when I started reading it, but telling me that I need to stick to a role forever to start seeing the reward of being in the clan, eh.. When I was in Tor it was HORRIBLE.. We would pretty much spar all day and our "plot" was to go kill endless spiders once in a blue moon.. Then spar all day forever or stand by the gate and pretending that people cared about us being there.. That clan traumatized me for life)
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 02:55:20 PM
Your contention is your opinion, but it is based on some assumptions that simply are not true. Essentially a middle manager...somewhat, I'll give you that. Large monopoly--yes, that means they have to assist in maintaining that monopoly. Facing no real threats--ha! Asked to make life interesting--no, they generally aren't, that's a hopeful byproduct of them BEING interesting. Create drama out of nothing? They can, sure, but they don't have to. Dial back their definition of interesting? Yes, we're actively looking for sponsored leaders that essentially do nothing.
I think "facing no real threats" deserves a better answer than "ha!". What enmities does Kadius actually have? Who's going to mess with you specifically because you're a Kadian? Is there any substantial conflict going on that a rank and file Kadian would be aware of other than that rooted in personal squabbles? I can point to a place where conflict is definitely diluted: showing up in Nak with Northern ink or in Tuluk with a southern accent will get you in a whole lot less trouble if you're wearing Kadian colours.
Moving on: maintaining that monopoly against whom? Who's the threat here? The indies who mostly aren't even at the point of scraping a half-dozen people together in any one group, let alone the hallowed heights of having their own shop? Salarr and Kurac? A number of the posts in this thread have taken it almost as granted that Merchant Houses are so hand-in-glove that moving to a common pool of hunters or resources shared between them wouldn't strike anyone as unusual, and I've seen nothing in game to suggest anyone is threatening Kadius' core business. Maybe it's all going on in a back room and the Agents are playing high-stakes Kruth for each others' businesses and telling no-one of it. But if so, that's not a conflict which is doing heavy lifting in very many stories.
You can be a perfectly good middle manager in a large monopoly and have your staff be bored to tears. It happens in big companies all round the world. Uninteresting can arise sweetly and naturally from your normal daily drudgery. Actual inactivity is not required.
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 02:55:20 PM
Playing as an indie doesn't give a player any super powers. An indie has less resources and thus less to draw on for actual roleplay inspiration. Being able to succeed without those resources is admirable. Having those resources doesn't make someone automatically a dullard with no ability to roleplay.
Indies have less resources, but connecting that to less roleplay inspiration is fallacious. A wealth of resources can even be bad for roleplay inspiration, because it means you have fewer needs. The important factors are conflicts and tensions. A rich retired couple in an American suburb are resource-rich, but likely conflict-poor. Somali pirates are resource-poor, but conflict-rich. I know which of these I'd be more entertained to see a camera following for a day.
Or, to put it another way, there's a ton more tension and drama in a start-up than in a huge behemoth of a company. I've seen both. Personally, I'm addicted to the startup rollercoaster.
I'm not claiming at all that the players in resource-rich but conflict-poor scenarios are dullards with no ability to roleplay. I'm saying the exact opposite: they deserve more applause if they can make an interesting story, because they were starting with a handicap.
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 02:55:20 PM
Play what you want to play, be the change you want to see, whatever. Noble houses are going to be less gritty than the rest. GMH roles at a certain level aren't that gritty. The Byn, criminal gangs, PC-created clans are all going to be more gritty. Tribes at a certain level are going to be more gritty. There's something for everyone.
There's one active criminal gang clan I can think of. There's one Byn. There are three noble Houses in Allanak open, according to the website: Borsail, Oash and Fale. In Tuluk, Dasari, Tenneshi, Winrothol and Negean are listed as open. Kadius and Salarr have PCs in numbers (I'll concede Kurac does have some grit).
If you're interested in gritty city RP, there's a lot less support for you than there is for people who like to flounce around in nice clothes. It may be something for everyone, but it's a lot more for some than others. I'm not convinced it follows popular preference. Indeed, the concern that led to this thread being started - there are too many indies! - suggests that maybe, just maybe, some of those players are voting with their feet for grittier options, even if they have to give up some support to do it.
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:31:24 AM
I suppose if you have a problem with this and you are playing in such a clan (and this is an actual problem in the clan), you should bring it up with your clan staff or clan leadership on their board. If you're an indie and are just playing devil's advocate, then you have no idea what's going on with this presently, anyway.
The board's been going back and forth on this for pages now. This isn't a personal complaint - the list I made wasn't filled with personal complaints, but a compilation of reasons people had given for not wanting to be in clans. Clearly a lot of people are of the opinion that clan leaders can have clan items loaded up for them to sell without needing to involve their crafters, and a number have felt the crafters, and by extension the hunters, are thus rendered somewhat unnecessary. If this is incorrect, then straightening it out would probably make a lot of people happy.
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:43:21 AM
Quote from: Quirk on January 30, 2014, 09:44:37 AM
When "nobody" and "slightly higher nobody" encompass much of the playerbase, and getting to be a slightly higher nobody without swearing allegiance to some clan or another takes a great deal of effort, it's still a jump that matters.
It's a system that is meant to be fluid, a chart that is meant to guide. It's not set in stone. Quibbling over this is silly. It is an insignificant jump, depending on other variables. A very long-lived independent commoner with ties to important people but no official affiliation is going to have more pull than the average just-off-the-boat shitty GMH crafter. No one is going to run up and down the North Road waving the caste chart and saying their caste ranking has vastly improved.
Is that at all inconsistent with what I said? Because it seems to me you're agreeing that an independent has a lot to do to exceed the status of the "average" just-off-the-boat GMH crafter. If you're measuring status in terms of the scale from nobility to slave, sure, it's not a big step. If you're measuring status in terms of what the average PC gains over the course of their life, then, yeah, it is a pretty large bump.
It's simple, really. We kill the independents.
To dial things back a notch here...
My initial involvement kicked in when people started suggesting independents should get weakened in various ways in order to push people toward clans. This struck me as a bad idea. I feel indies have many advantages roleplay-wise. I feel some clans have enough interesting stuff to offer to offset some of these advantages. I've joined quite a few clans in my time with Arm, and a number of them I'd be enthusiastic about joining again.
I also feel that our current clan mix doesn't provide very much choice in terms of getting into the grittier side of the game, and that conflict between clans is pretty muted. We're a very long way from the Borgias. We're a long way from the youths of the Montagues and Capulets duelling in the streets after dark. We're a long way even from the average tumult of British politics before Cromwell redefined the country's relationship to the Crown. The big players are fairly happy with the way things are, and so they don't change much. When they do change, very few PCs are likely to have much of a hand in it. That's fine and all, but it's not precisely an inspiring place to focus as a story setting.
Virtually, there must be any number of smaller clans which aren't big and fat and rich and safe, which are encountering threats they need to be genuinely scared of. I think they're hogging a lot of the good stories.
Still, if we're going to stick with the clans we've got, I do think we could do better with regard to creating enough tension between them to actually filter down to the rank and file, who're currently knocking back ales together because someone of the same social class currently defaults to ally until they prove otherwise.
Also, I imagine this is pretty predictable, but I like Narf's idea a lot.
Take heart. Our vigilant and semi-vigilant voting will brainwash more and more people to join our great society, and eventually diminish this problem into a nonproblematic state, and then end it.
Of course by then if nothing else has changed we might need to resurrect Steinal and build more taverns just to deal with the numbers of people.
Williamson, I don't disagree with you when you say the game is meant to be played over months and not weeks, and it's true clanned characters maybe have a small advantage in preserving their net worth over independents, seeing as how they have a locker which is mostly immune from random burglars (but not, as many a frustrated player will tell you, immune from their own clan mates!), and they probably have more protection from being shaken down for coin than an indie does. But at the RL year mark, given a player with constant playtimes and decent skill, I think the distinction is pretty academic. By that point you'll be much richer than the average PC regardless of if you're independent or not, even if all you have is "only" a lot of coins in the bank, an apartment, a collection of interesting gear and biographies.
If we really want to be true to the ideal that working for a clan should be a job most commoners would feel lucky to have, though, it shouldn't take an RL year for the scales to tip in a clanned character's favor. For the majority of that year, while catching up to the curve, your clanned PC with his supposedly "lucky" job is surrounded by independents who are able to toss down plenty more coin on gear, apartments, spice, whores, bribes, and so on - and make the money back much faster. If the pay were about the same, but being independent was just a trade of less security for more freedom, I think we'd be in a better place. Not everyone wants to join a clan, but I wish economics wasn't a reason for people to stay away.
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 04:13:29 PM
rent backroom me talia
The bouncer says, in sirihish: "You don't haev enough money to rent this for the night. You will need 98 more 'sid."
say "only need it for 5 min"
Hourly rates FTW Nyr. 30 RL minutes = 25 sids. After 30 minutes, the door opens and the bartender tells you to pay another 25 minutes or get lost. That'll solve the problem of people who need a private place for an impromptu meeting/mudsex/job interview, but don't want to give up a quarter of their monthly pay (100 sids) for the privilege (remember clanned recruits generally get paid nothing, and next-level employees don't get much more than 100-200/pay period).
Quote from: Quirk on January 30, 2014, 06:11:51 PM
We're a very long way from the Borgias.
You might be surprised.
Granted, when you only have 3-6 nobles in a given city, the amount of scheming and backstabbing that can occur is somewhat limited, but if you think it isn't happening, you're wrong.
And granted, you don't have Montagues and Capulets breaking to new mutiny in the streets, but you don't have a lot of "gritty" characters griping about getting shivved the night before over a wayward comment either. That's an issue with the finality of crim code, not a lack of conflict.
Solution: Start indie. Greb, move to salting, get good, buy some decent starter and survival gear. Join clan. When coins dwindle, sneak out every once in a while and salt up 1k coins responsibly. Problem solved.
Quote from: James de Monet on January 30, 2014, 07:03:50 PM
You might be surprised.
Granted, when you only have 3-6 nobles in a given city, the amount of scheming and backstabbing that can occur is somewhat limited, but if you think it isn't happening, you're wrong.
And granted, you don't have Montagues and Capulets breaking to new mutiny in the streets, but you don't have a lot of "gritty" characters griping about getting shivved the night before over a wayward comment either. That's an issue with the finality of crim code, not a lack of conflict.
With regard to the Borgias: scheming and backstabbing exists, sure. But literally killing a noble of another House for your own profit and having your House back you up? Let alone rising to the top on a tide of murders? I've some scepticism there. Actions likely to put Houses in conflict usually, in my past experience, led to the nobles being quietly disowned. Admittedly I did spend nearly seven years away from the game before my return, and maybe things have changed on that front. On the other hand, I returned to a suspiciously identical-looking set of rich clans. It's hard not to believe in a deep underlying stability when everything looks so close to the same over the course of an in-game half-century.
Similarly, it's not even the lack of midnight running battles I bemoan - it's the lack of tensions implying people would fight them if they could.
I'm more bothered by the economic monopolists than the nobles though. Historically there was at least some level of tension and enmity between a few of the Noble Houses, enough to keep me from complaining. Kadius and Salarr have seemed kind of disappointing to me since things quieted down after the Rebellion. Neutrality is good for business, but bad for stories.
Quote from: ale six on January 30, 2014, 06:43:23 PM
Williamson, I don't disagree with you when you say the game is meant to be played over months and not weeks, and it's true clanned characters maybe have a small advantage in preserving their net worth over independents, seeing as how they have a locker which is mostly immune from random burglars (but not, as many a frustrated player will tell you, immune from their own clan mates!), and they probably have more protection from being shaken down for coin than an indie does. But at the RL year mark, given a player with constant playtimes and decent skill, I think the distinction is pretty academic. By that point you'll be much richer than the average PC regardless of if you're independent or not, even if all you have is "only" a lot of coins in the bank, an apartment, a collection of interesting gear and biographies.
Problem: Sometimes characters steal from your footlocker despite the fact that most barracks have NPCs or room descriptions with VNPCs.
Solution: Some people might suggest submitting a player complaint. However, I despise player complaints because I think most of them are a waste of staff time. I suggest that footlockers have locks. Your boss distributes your key when you get the footlocker. This will stop the vast majority of that behavior and it becomes another perk for people in clans.
Quote from: ale six on January 30, 2014, 06:43:23 PM
If we really want to be true to the ideal that working for a clan should be a job most commoners would feel lucky to have, though, it shouldn't take an RL year for the scales to tip in a clanned character's favor. For the majority of that year, while catching up to the curve, your clanned PC with his supposedly "lucky" job is surrounded by independents who are able to toss down plenty more coin on gear, apartments, spice, whores, bribes, and so on - and make the money back much faster. If the pay were about the same, but being independent was just a trade of less security for more freedom, I think we'd be in a better place. Not everyone wants to join a clan, but I wish economics wasn't a reason for people to stay away.
For rangers, grebbers, warriors, hunters, and outdoorsmen, I think the economic pendulum swings toward clanned characters as soon as they are allowed to leave the city. Usually, that's 6 RL weeks. For crafters, rogues, and spies, I think it takes even less time. If you don't expect your character to live more than 6 weeks, I'd say clans aren't really for your character. At RL 6 months, the clanned character should easily be ahead. At RL 1 year, it's more no contest than OJ Simpson beating his wife. (History lesson: OJ Simpson pled no contest for beating the wife he was latter accused of murdering)
It's so easy to make money in clans if you're willing to get past the recruit phase. Let me make a RL comparison. You and your friend graduate from high school. Your friend gets a job waiting tables and starts earning money. There's no homework and you see them out partying and buying drinks with money you don't have. You are jealous. You go to college, write term papers, and take examines. However, you put in the work and graduate. You land a job as a teacher. Now you make the same, but you've got perks such as the state pension, healthcare, and summers off. A few years later, you're promoted to principle. Now it's all in your favor. Decades later, you worked hard and made the right choices (like not banging that hot cheerleader that tried to flirt with you) and you're the superintendent. You chuckle as your old friend pours your wine at the fancy steakhouse. In Armageddon, college takes 4-6 weeks depending on the clan. The superintendent job is the guy selling diamond earrings, bricks of spice, or heavy crossbows strung with silt-giant hair. As you look outside your wagon and Way with the Sergeant of your guard, you drive by that independent still foraging for salt.
Quote from: Fujikoma on January 30, 2014, 07:12:37 PM
Solution: Start indie. Greb, move to salting, get good, buy some decent starter and survival gear. Join clan. When coins dwindle, sneak out every once in a while and salt up 1k coins responsibly. Problem solved.
There's nothing wrong with doing that from time to time. Sometimes you have to work a little overtime if you want to take the little lady out for a nice Valentine's Day dinner. Once you have the "ok" to leave the city from your clan and complete the work they want done, there are tons of ways to make extra coins.
Quote from: williamson on January 30, 2014, 08:26:41 PM
For rangers, grebbers, warriors, hunters, and outdoorsmen, I think the economic pendulum swings toward clanned characters as soon as they are allowed to leave the city. Usually, that's 6 RL weeks. For crafters, rogues, and spies, I think it takes even less time. If you don't expect your character to live more than 6 weeks, I'd say clans aren't really for your character. At RL 6 months, the clanned character should easily be ahead. At RL 1 year, it's more no contest than OJ Simpson beating his wife. (History lesson: OJ Simpson pled no contest for beating the wife he was latter accused of murdering)
After six weeks the pendulum is only beginning to start shifting back toward the clanned character, it isn't on his side.
6-week old clan hunter, freshly promoted, now able to leave the gates on his own. Previously, he was a recruit, probably unpaid. After his first promotion his salary is now about 200-300 coins an RL week. He can't sell any of the raw materials he hunts; those go to the House. He gets free food/water, but he can probably forage that anyway. Let's be generous and call his compensation 500 coins an RL week, after six weeks of making none. If he wants to make extra money, he either needs to break his IC house rules that prevent him from doing things like selling stuff to vendors, or get permission from his boss.
6-week independent hunter, was able to leave the gates on day one. He probably had a rockier start, but six weeks in he's probably skilled up enough for smooth sailing. He has to pay for his own food/water, but again, he can probably just forage for that. By your own numbers earlier, 1000 coins in profit per week is doable for him easily with sufficient playtimes, and it probably is achievable before the 6 week mark. I'd suspect the amount of profit might be even higher than that. He also has no rules to worry about breaking and no one to ask permission from.
Once the clanned hunter can leave the gates, he still has only the same ways to make coin that the indie character has too. He also assumes the same risks - there's nothing that inherently keeps a clanned hunter safer outdoors than an indie. His lifespan is going to be determined mostly by the skill of his player and luck, neither of which have bearing in this discussion.
The way the clanned character may eventually get ahead is if he lives long enough and is loyal enough that he gets leader-level perks in his clan. Not everyone is willing or has the time to devote to achieve that sort of thing in game - and that's fine. For those that do, and who want to really max out the amount of wealth and influence their PC can have, I'd say a clan is the way to go. But for the players that don't, where's the economic incentive to joining a clan that the docs say should be there?
I will note before I bow out of this that the 1000 coins that Fujikoma suggests you make whenever you need supplementary income is equal to between three and five RL weeks of pay at the lowest rank of most clans (which itself takes 4 to 6 weeks to get to.) I can't see how we can look at those numbers and determine the economy seems balanced at its current state.
On an indie, those coins go quickly, and again, you DO NOT want to be THAT guy out there salting every day. You use what you get to make things happen and you mostly sit around and BS with the rest of your free time.
As a house employee, heck, feck it, I'm going to grab some coins every now and then. As a Bynner I'm going to stay inside because I don't like getting flogged.
It's not broken. Any PC of mine who has been able to pull in that much has put a considerable amount of effort and time into it, and usually not every IG day, maybe once and IG week, because feck salting if I can avoid it, I'm lazy and I like interaction. It's not like it leaps up off the salt, that's about where my non-ranger PCs top out, and that's with a tent or some other form of shade. Which, heh, tents.
Quote from: Fujikoma on January 30, 2014, 10:18:04 PM
It's not broken. Any PC of mine who has been able to pull in that much has put a considerable amount of effort and time into it, and usually not every IG day, maybe once and IG week, because feck salting if I can avoid it, I'm lazy and I like interaction. It's not like it leaps up off the salt, that's about where my non-ranger PCs top out, and that's with a tent or some other form of shade. Which, heh, tents.
Oh, please.. It almost sounds like you're trying to convince us that salting is some highly mortal profession that requires shade, luck and very defined tools to both survive it and become wealthy from it. BS. Total BS. I'm a salting professional and I can tell you how easy it is, even with a non-ranger. So easy that I beg Staff to lower prices offered for said salt. I BEG. But if they don't lower it, then I take it that what I do is legit. But don't BS people into thinking that it's hard and you work hard for it. 3/4 of the salters I see, if not 90%, are running scripts while watching their monitor. Again. BS and shame to you, shame I say!
If we were in 1870, I would challenge you to a duel.
Quote from: Malken on January 30, 2014, 10:24:56 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on January 30, 2014, 10:18:04 PM
It's not broken. Any PC of mine who has been able to pull in that much has put a considerable amount of effort and time into it, and usually not every IG day, maybe once and IG week, because feck salting if I can avoid it, I'm lazy and I like interaction. It's not like it leaps up off the salt, that's about where my non-ranger PCs top out, and that's with a tent or some other form of shade. Which, heh, tents.
Oh, please.. It almost sounds like you're trying to convince us that salting is some highly mortal profession that requires shade, luck and very defined tools to both survive it and become wealthy from it. BS. Total BS. I'm a salting professional and I can tell you how easy it is, even with a non-ranger. So easy that I beg Staff to lower prices offered for said salt. I BEG. But if they don't lower it, then I take it that what I do is legit. But don't BS people into thinking that it's hard and you work hard for it. 3/4 of the salters I see, if not 90%, are running scripts while watching their monitor. Again. BS and shame to you, shame I say!
If we were in 1870, I would challenge you to a duel.
LMAO, hell, if I'd been running scripts, wow, can't count the number of times I would have been dead. But yeah, go ahead and lower it, I'm just saying, I've seen some crazy stuff happen, lots of it. l n ls l e l w put salt sack forage salt l n l e l w l s think Feck, FECKING HOT! put salt pack forage salt l n l s l e l w
You feel a cool breeze.
The mullish figure in a tattered red windcloak arrives from the south and says "drop pack", clubs you anyway
A scrab arrives from the north (kills my newbies dead if I'm not prepared to respond immediately)
Don't forget those sand worms, wow.
I don't bother watching other salters, unless I end up grouping with them. The usually stop when I enter the room and react immediately, if that's a script, it's a pretty interesting one. Perhaps I don't salt in the same spots.
::)
Like I said, I hope, hope, hope that Staff actually watches people, and if they don't see anything wrong with what they see and how much people can make from it all, then I call it legit and I assume that they want it that way, since these are all things we've bitched about forever.
I've learned long ago not to argue with people who says the exact opposite of what I constantly see in game, since I can't prove it and neither can you.
So again, we must judge that Staff thinks it's legit.
I've had a few characters go out salt grebbing over the RL years. Never once have any of them been ganked by anything more serious than NPC insects. Zero attempted raids by a PC.
I've had a grand total of two characters that would actively look for salt grebbers to raid. Granted, I never used optimal tactics, but out of maybe a dozen attempts, I've gotten one successful raid, and that's only because the other PC cooperated. Codely, that PC could have probably escaped successfully. In return for a paltry few coins and a bag of salt I got off shaking down that one PC, I had an entire clan of PC hunters after my guy. Which was fun, but if I was after 'sidian more so than fun, counter-productive.
Salt grebbing, and all sorts of other types of grebbing, is very low risk. The payout is probably too high or maybe the danger level is too low.
Quote from: ale six on January 30, 2014, 09:45:37 PM
After his first promotion his salary is now about 200-300 coins an RL week.
Pay periods are every
other week, I think.
Serve a clan for 10 years, get promoted to the 3rd or 4th rank, and get maybe 300 or 400 coins every
other week.
Speaking from personal experience, sometimes this salary is actually even lower than that. In some clans it tops out at 300 regardless of the rank you attain.
Which pays out every RL week, so you get 150 coins every RL week.
That is seriously not enough coins to buy more than three drinks, over the course of a half-month.
salary pay is pretty low overall. bonuses should be given liberally.
Quote from: number13 on January 30, 2014, 11:55:29 PM
Zero attempted raids by a PC.
Pfft, I've had salters who got raided twice in the same
day, by UNRELATED raiders.
Where are these magickal rainbow flats that you're salting on? Daddy wants some.
Quote from: James de Monet on January 31, 2014, 04:42:56 AM
Quote from: number13 on January 30, 2014, 11:55:29 PM
Zero attempted raids by a PC.
Pfft, I've had salters who got raided twice in the same day, by UNRELATED raiders.
Where are these magickal rainbow flats that you're salting on? Daddy wants some.
The ones a few steps east of Allanak.
I can say I've never been raided or faced any
real danger while out salting as well.
I've been 'raided' by desert elves, defilers and even a dwarf once.
Only the dwarf attacked. The other two appreciated my begging and let me off easy.
i've gotta do several posts cus sometimes my comp goes down. *edit to add - I totally consider gmh family members to be nobles
off topic: heh heh. I remember having a character protect salters from harm. He succeeded greatly. I remember he told me about how terrifying he was and just smirked, because I considered myself to be even more terrifying. - we won't go into details but those times people created raiders... I dealt with them. o_o
FIRE PEOPLE WITHOUT REMORSE
Anyway... on topic: I wanna start by saying, I've never played a leader. -_-;
Am I the only one who imagines the great houses to be like the great houses of morrowind? Hllalu, Redoran, Dres, Indoril etc. They all have people who belong to them and work for them. No doubt they get food and water from the house unless they want to get it someplace else. There are the employees and then there are the house members, who are or aren't responsible for house things.
First suggestion: Realize you work for the house / if it's broken. Fix it.
Understand you work for the house... and they no matter how lazy they are, are the house. A noble is in charge of seeing that things are done and that if perhaps, the ratio of materials to crafted items is askew, that maybe the noble is paying too many hunters. FIRE HUNTERS WITHOUT REMORSE given their usefulness. Maybe then they'd care about how much they did for the house or what people saw. Or just hire more crafters. Or fire your crafter for being lazy and get a better one. Whatever it takes to FIX THE PROBLEM YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT ALL THE TIME, instead of working around it.
The crafters/hunters thing is one that mainly concerns GMHs. Although GMHs were talked about a lot, and the thread is supposed to concern all clans, but not much was brought up about noble houses besides "lack of 'grit'" (whatever grit is to people; if you want to talk about "harshness" and "murder/corruption/betrayal" then noble houses have plenty of that) and the argument about clan pay and perks that apply broadly to all of the clans. I would be interested in seeing what people think of noble houses beyond that, considering there are far more of those than any of the other types of clans, typically 2-3 open per city at one time.
I will say that the others are right. Only higher ups seem to know about really cool things. people should try to spy or something. Seriously. People have no clue the insanity hidden behind smiles.
PAY
I like the idea of being able to sell things to the house storage where later crafters can get it for free. Or maybe there could be a chest guarded by a dood who pays people accordingly. Anyway, I like the idea.
I remember in some clans I would get paid 75 coins a pay period. I quit using it so I don't know how often I was getting paid /but/. no matter what. It would be 75 coins. The amount never accrued. Fix this.
"You missed your last ten pay periods, lad."
The dood hands you 75 coins.
- and after pay accumulating I want to suggest pay a day.
10 coins a day x 9 day work week = 90 coins (given you get detal or ocandra or whatever off) That sounds alright don't you think? 90 coins isn't much. But you're getting it. You can pick it up at least once a day and that makes people happy. /getting/ paid. and 90 coins a week? That's an insane amount of money.
you could even make it less coins a day so it adds up to what it would be now or whatever.
[examples of pay so you see it and you don't just nod and say you like the idea]
.6 coins a day x 231 (zalanthan month) = 138 (rounded down)
or it could be less. Or more!
10 x 231 = 2310(3) = 6930 made in a year. But you won't see any of it? You blow it all on spice, booze, and whores. Or if you live in tuluk you just by fancy clothes!
Quote from: Quirk on January 30, 2014, 05:45:36 PM
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 02:55:20 PM
Your contention is your opinion, but it is based on some assumptions that simply are not true. Essentially a middle manager...somewhat, I'll give you that. Large monopoly--yes, that means they have to assist in maintaining that monopoly. Facing no real threats--ha! Asked to make life interesting--no, they generally aren't, that's a hopeful byproduct of them BEING interesting. Create drama out of nothing? They can, sure, but they don't have to. Dial back their definition of interesting? Yes, we're actively looking for sponsored leaders that essentially do nothing.
I think "facing no real threats" deserves a better answer than "ha!".
OK.
QuoteWhat enmities does Kadius actually have?
Oh, you are saying Kadius as a whole, not a specific Kadian. I thought that was what you were suggesting. Well, yes, it is possible that Kadius as a whole might get into conflict--as a whole--but it is less rare. An individual Kadian, on the other hand, might get executed, targeted by a rogue group, assassinated, wronged, screwed over, etc.
QuoteWho's going to mess with you specifically because you're a Kadian?
Possibly someone that has some beef with Kadius as a whole?
QuoteIs there any substantial conflict going on that a rank and file Kadian would be aware of other than that rooted in personal squabbles?
You really like Kadius. Or hate it. I can't tell. Again, the role is what you make it; if you're wanting conflict out of the box without any work, yes, you can find a better role for that. I've always found it to be a better idea to play roles with some personality--you do get something out of a role when you put something into it. If you're planning to play a Kadian to be simply "A kadian!" then you're missing the point. Play a character. Your character is either Kadian by blood or a hunter by choice. Your character's background and mannerisms create roleplay. If that's "manufacturing drama out of nothing" then yes...you should do that with every role. If you're not, you're probably missing out.
QuoteI can point to a place where conflict is definitely diluted: showing up in Nak with Northern ink or in Tuluk with a southern accent will get you in a whole lot less trouble if you're wearing Kadian colours.
To some extent this is true. Beyond that I fail to see what point you are trying to make. Yes, when you have rank in an organization that crisscrosses the Known World, it seems it matters
less where you were born and more who you were born
to, even though it still matters to some extent.
QuoteMoving on: maintaining that monopoly against whom? Who's the threat here? The indies who mostly aren't even at the point of scraping a half-dozen people together in any one group, let alone the hallowed heights of having their own shop? Salarr and Kurac? A number of the posts in this thread have taken it almost as granted that Merchant Houses are so hand-in-glove that moving to a common pool of hunters or resources shared between them wouldn't strike anyone as unusual, and I've seen nothing in game to suggest anyone is threatening Kadius' core business. Maybe it's all going on in a back room and the Agents are playing high-stakes Kruth for each others' businesses and telling no-one of it. But if so, that's not a conflict which is doing heavy lifting in very many stories.
Indies may not be competition to the virtual house but they are competition to the PC activities of that House. We actively encourage GMHs to squash indies that try to cut in on their turf. Bribe, cheat, steal, kill, etc.
In addition to the things that affect PCs locally, there are at times larger things that the GMHs can get involved in. These are fewer and farther between, but they are there. Salarr sells to both sides of a war. That can create conflict. Kurac is caught in the middle of a war. That can create conflict. Kadius is traditionally Northern. That can create conflict. Kadius has to get resources at times. That can create conflict depending on what those resources are/where they are located/what may be nearby. (Granted that may be more PvE, but still, it can exist.)
QuoteYou can be a perfectly good middle manager in a large monopoly and have your staff be bored to tears. It happens in big companies all round the world. Uninteresting can arise sweetly and naturally from your normal daily drudgery. Actual inactivity is not required.
How authoritatively can you speak on the subject in-game, though? Are you just making assumptions about how boring it is to do so, or do you have any experience to draw on related to this subject?
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 02:55:20 PM
Playing as an indie doesn't give a player any super powers. An indie has less resources and thus less to draw on for actual roleplay inspiration. Being able to succeed without those resources is admirable. Having those resources doesn't make someone automatically a dullard with no ability to roleplay.
Indies have less resources, but connecting that to less roleplay inspiration is fallacious. A wealth of resources can even be bad for roleplay inspiration, because it means you have fewer needs. The important factors are conflicts and tensions. A rich retired couple in an American suburb are resource-rich, but likely conflict-poor. Somali pirates are resource-poor, but conflict-rich. I know which of these I'd be more entertained to see a camera following for a day.[/quote]
I didn't connect that to less roleplay inspiration...you did. You even said that agian, here. Having too many resources = bad for roleplay inspiration. If your real beef is "omg Kadius doesn't have any worldwide conflict specific to the house at this given moment in time" (which it really seems to be, you keep drawing Kadius in to the discussion) then create another thread for that. The focus on GMHs is not the point of this thread.
QuoteOr, to put it another way, there's a ton more tension and drama in a start-up than in a huge behemoth of a company. I've seen both. Personally, I'm addicted to the startup rollercoaster.
You've made that clear, but not everyone has the same interests in play as you do.
QuoteI'm not claiming at all that the players in resource-rich but conflict-poor scenarios are dullards with no ability to roleplay. I'm saying the exact opposite: they deserve more applause if they can make an interesting story, because they were starting with a handicap.
Ok, good.
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 02:55:20 PM
Play what you want to play, be the change you want to see, whatever. Noble houses are going to be less gritty than the rest. GMH roles at a certain level aren't that gritty. The Byn, criminal gangs, PC-created clans are all going to be more gritty. Tribes at a certain level are going to be more gritty. There's something for everyone.
There's one active criminal gang clan I can think of. There's one Byn. There are three noble Houses in Allanak open, according to the website: Borsail, Oash and Fale. In Tuluk, Dasari, Tenneshi, Winrothol and Negean are listed as open.[/quote]
Actually Negean is not open. That's a bug on the site. There's even a note saying it's not open.
QuoteIf you're interested in gritty city RP, there's a lot less support for you than there is for people who like to flounce around in nice clothes. It may be something for everyone, but it's a lot more for some than others. I'm not convinced it follows popular preference. Indeed, the concern that led to this thread being started - there are too many indies! - suggests that maybe, just maybe, some of those players are voting with their feet for grittier options, even if they have to give up some support to do it.
There's not really a major concern that there's too many indies. This is normal. We go through cycles of everything. OMG too many mages, omg too many clans, omg too many indies, omg Tuluk sucks, omg Allanak sucks, omg city elves suck, etc. It happens.
QuoteQuote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:31:24 AM
I suppose if you have a problem with this and you are playing in such a clan (and this is an actual problem in the clan), you should bring it up with your clan staff or clan leadership on their board. If you're an indie and are just playing devil's advocate, then you have no idea what's going on with this presently, anyway.
The board's been going back and forth on this for pages now. This isn't a personal complaint - the list I made wasn't filled with personal complaints, but a compilation of reasons people had given for not wanting to be in clans. Clearly a lot of people are of the opinion that clan leaders can have clan items loaded up for them to sell without needing to involve their crafters, and a number have felt the crafters, and by extension the hunters, are thus rendered somewhat unnecessary. If this is incorrect, then straightening it out would probably make a lot of people happy.
It's been going back and forth on this for pages now because that's how GDB discussions go. There's really very little substantive stuff here. I even pointed out what things we've noticed and how we're working to trial some changes where it makes sense. Again, this is normal, people complain about stuff, etc. If you don't actually have a problem with this directly, then you're just making the dialogue go on with no real conclusion.
QuoteQuote from: Nyr on January 30, 2014, 10:43:21 AM
Quote from: Quirk on January 30, 2014, 09:44:37 AM
When "nobody" and "slightly higher nobody" encompass much of the playerbase, and getting to be a slightly higher nobody without swearing allegiance to some clan or another takes a great deal of effort, it's still a jump that matters.
It's a system that is meant to be fluid, a chart that is meant to guide. It's not set in stone. Quibbling over this is silly. It is an insignificant jump, depending on other variables. A very long-lived independent commoner with ties to important people but no official affiliation is going to have more pull than the average just-off-the-boat shitty GMH crafter. No one is going to run up and down the North Road waving the caste chart and saying their caste ranking has vastly improved.
Is that at all inconsistent with what I said? Because it seems to me you're agreeing that an independent has a lot to do to exceed the status of the "average" just-off-the-boat GMH crafter. If you're measuring status in terms of the scale from nobility to slave, sure, it's not a big step. If you're measuring status in terms of what the average PC gains over the course of their life, then, yeah, it is a pretty large bump.
If your goal is to play an independent then you
should have to work hard at it.
Suck it, indies. ICly, I mean. OOCly you have support from independent staff.
Quote from: Cutthroat on January 31, 2014, 09:18:13 AM
Although GMHs were talked about a lot, and the thread is supposed to concern all clans, but not much was brought up about noble houses besides "lack of 'grit'" (whatever grit is to people; if you want to talk about "harshness" and "murder/corruption/betrayal" then noble houses have plenty of that) and the argument about clan pay and perks that apply broadly to all of the clans. I would be interested in seeing what people think of noble houses beyond that, considering there are far more of those than any of the other types of clans, typically 2-3 open per city at one time.
I don't have as much interest in playing social climbing and the sort of backstabbing politics that goes on in noble houses; my preferred grit is being still within sight and sound of the suffering of most of the world, not being much better off than they are, and knowing that every time I screw up gets me closer and closer to where they are, if not simply killed off by the clan. For me, noble houses have the greatest distance from that, and its appealing, but not as appealing as other kinds of conflict for me. This is a personal thing though, I know some people love backstabbing politics.
I was thinking about it for a while and I remember distinctly being in a clan with maybe four other people including the supervisor, and after me I don't think we got another employee for a RL month, and I enjoyed my time there anyway, very much. I sometimes feel nostalgic for it and want to give the clan another go. Stored after two RL months out of boredom. I think what did it for me was the restrictiveness, and the restrictiveness alone. I was a crafter in a clan that was about as restrictive as the byn, unless the superiors decided to give us the rest of the week off, which did happen occasionally, but I think it only started when they realized I had some interesting stuff to do after hours that took long amounts of time. A lot of the time, you just idled in the crafting part of the compound for forty minutes, waiting for your twenty. As an impatient person, this wasn't healthy for my long-term, and I know we lost at least one of the other four people due to it.
TO PEOPLE WHO ROLEPLAY AND STRIVE FOR NOTHING
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzhzkKccBi8
You are the fuel for the fire that you so desire.
I frequently play characters with no reason in life - but for some reason. I'm able to make a story out of it. I get into insanity. Doing simple things is what I like to do. Being simple is much more difficult in a game world that refuses to let you be so. So I strive to be simple! I will use the code. I will use my IMAGINATION. I light fires not with the ''light'' command. I use flint... I use wood on wood friction. I'll use my magick. I'll use a glass to magnify it.
I don't skin using the ''skin'' command. I use a knife to bleed my kills. I take off my gloves because I can't get a good grip on all these bloody innards. I don't just cut meat from the body. I work muscle away from the back of my kill. I rip off limbs, tear tendons, get something I didn't want in my eye dammit. I've got to wipe off my hand to get it out and then get bloody again...
I'm magick. I'm a rukkian!! I'm stronger than you. Faster than you. I control the very sand you stand on. I don't use the ''cast'' command to create a chair of sand. Maybe I can't. I'll emote it. Because I can... I control sand and stone and if I want to sit, darn it!! ... I will.
If... I am a hunter in a clan that expects me to hunt. I won't do what everyone else does. I'm not going to jump on my mount. Ride out and kill everything. I'm going to go out on foot. I have food and water. There's no rush. I'm going to pick an animal that I see. I'm going to hunt it. Sneak up on it. It's smelled me in the breeze. I've got to track it. I see it again. It doesn't see me. I won't make the same mistake twice. I'm going to pull my arrow across the bowstring and send it flying into the beast's heart! - or I'm going to tackle it! Stab it until it stops!
If... I am a crafter of a clan that expects me to craft. I won't do what everyone else does. I'm not going to go and sit in a bar waiting for people to want to buy things. I'm going to the streets, baby. Where I come from. To promote the house that I work for. Selling any goods from them I can. Or maybe I'll sell from the store that's already up. (change ldesc stands her selling salarri goods) and just let people know I'm not an npc who doesn't actually sell anything. Because I'm a crafter - I don't have to only craft. I can buy, sell and trade.
I'm actually terrible at roles like this but still.
There have been posts like this before... I want you all to understand that if you're not happy doing mundane things then maybe you should add some detail.
[note: I totally get lazy all the time and end up just using those commands, but my point stands. Doing anything can be fun if you do them in a way you can appreciate.]
Quote from: Quirk on January 30, 2014, 06:11:51 PM
To dial things back a notch here...
My initial involvement kicked in when people started suggesting independents should get weakened in various ways in order to push people toward clans. This struck me as a bad idea. I feel indies have many advantages roleplay-wise. I feel some clans have enough interesting stuff to offer to offset some of these advantages. I've joined quite a few clans in my time with Arm, and a number of them I'd be enthusiastic about joining again.
Yeah but keep in mind, while we on staff definitely read feedback on the GDB, we rarely if ever have made sweeping changes based on player consensus. The overall role of the indie is safe enough.
QuoteI also feel that our current clan mix doesn't provide very much choice in terms of getting into the grittier side of the game, and that conflict between clans is pretty muted. We're a very long way from the Borgias. We're a long way from the youths of the Montagues and Capulets duelling in the streets after dark. We're a long way even from the average tumult of British politics before Cromwell redefined the country's relationship to the Crown. The big players are fairly happy with the way things are, and so they don't change much. When they do change, very few PCs are likely to have much of a hand in it. That's fine and all, but it's not precisely an inspiring place to focus as a story setting.
Different clans offer different stuff to different players. If you want to play a gritty anything you absolutely can, but that's going to be on
you. More can be done as each clan gets a facelift or gets revamped but that requires additional work on staff's part; patience is required.
QuoteVirtually, there must be any number of smaller clans which aren't big and fat and rich and safe, which are encountering threats they need to be genuinely scared of. I think they're hogging a lot of the good stories.
PCs can create clans and do this if they want that. There won't be any guarantee of coded support but that is part of the difficulty (and allure) of such a thing.
Quote
Still, if we're going to stick with the clans we've got, I do think we could do better with regard to creating enough tension between them to actually filter down to the rank and file, who're currently knocking back ales together because someone of the same social class currently defaults to ally until they prove otherwise.
I'm going to skip to your next post.
Quote from: Quirk on January 30, 2014, 07:39:45 PM
Quote from: James de Monet on January 30, 2014, 07:03:50 PM
You might be surprised.
Granted, when you only have 3-6 nobles in a given city, the amount of scheming and backstabbing that can occur is somewhat limited, but if you think it isn't happening, you're wrong.
And granted, you don't have Montagues and Capulets breaking to new mutiny in the streets, but you don't have a lot of "gritty" characters griping about getting shivved the night before over a wayward comment either. That's an issue with the finality of crim code, not a lack of conflict.
With regard to the Borgias: scheming and backstabbing exists, sure. But literally killing a noble of another House for your own profit and having your House back you up? Let alone rising to the top on a tide of murders? I've some scepticism there. Actions likely to put Houses in conflict usually, in my past experience, led to the nobles being quietly disowned. Admittedly I did spend nearly seven years away from the game before my return, and maybe things have changed on that front. On the other hand, I returned to a suspiciously identical-looking set of rich clans. It's hard not to believe in a deep underlying stability when everything looks so close to the same over the course of an in-game half-century.
I'm going to highlight something here.
QuoteAdmittedly I did spend nearly seven years away from the game before my return, and maybe things have changed on that front.
Your past experience is older than the request tool for character reports, metaclan organization for staff, 3 HRPTs, and a plethora of murdered (and executed) templars, nobles, and lackeys. It is safe to say that your skepticism bleeds through your posts and is annoying to players and staff of players that are actively involved in said backstabbing between nobility.
QuoteI'm more bothered by the economic monopolists than the nobles though. Historically there was at least some level of tension and enmity between a few of the Noble Houses, enough to keep me from complaining. Kadius and Salarr have seemed kind of disappointing to me since things quieted down after the Rebellion. Neutrality is good for business, but bad for stories.
The "Rebellion" was over 10 years ago. We JUST had an HRPT last summer, the effects are still ongoing, and we have plans to use those effects to transform things where possible. And all of that takes time. Patience, grasshopper.
in summary, things that will be reviewed for clans, regardless:
pay scales
schedules
documentation (when applicable/necessary/desired)
things that will be trialed because it is better to see how it works on a smaller scale first:
perks for longer-lived PCs in clans (leaders)
perks for longer lived PCs in clans (non-leaders)
The other stuff like "let's just close down everything except super small clans and leave open maybe one noble house" definitely has merit. It also requires tons more work than just saying it, and perhaps is more appropriate to review once noble houses have been brought into the 21st century with regards to their documentation and roles for PCs.
Quote from: Nyr on January 31, 2014, 10:16:00 AM
The other stuff like "let's just close down everything except super small clans and leave open maybe one noble house" definitely has merit. It also requires tons more work than just saying it, and perhaps is more appropriate to review once noble houses have been brought into the 21st century with regards to their documentation and roles for PCs.
This is a place I'm perfectly happy with. If the idea's out there and getting real consideration, that's all I can ask. I will return to being patient.
One more little thought:
Schedules were listed by many people as offputting. An earlier comment of yours suggested that only four clans have schedules and all of those have caveats for when other clanned players aren't around. It's possible that a lot of the people writing have formed an opinion from past experience which doesn't reflect the current reality very closely, much as my perception that PC political action is somewhat circumscribed may be outdated. Might it be an idea maybe to have some kind of occasional update / post addressing misconceptions to ensure people who are perhaps not in a position to be informed of these things in game can get up to speed on how things are now, so that they don't continue to be put off by things they've experienced in the past?
I think it's great that Nyr and the rest of the staff will be taking a serious look at the perceived issues. I keep saying perceived, because - just because players see something, doesn't mean it's necessarily so. And just because we don't see something, doesn't mean it isn't necessarily so. Pointing out what we perceive, and letting the staff take a closer look to see what's truly what, seems to be working. If it weren't working, Nyr (et al) wouldn't bother taking a closer look.
So thanks staff, for taking a closer look and taking our perceptions seriously.
Quote from: Nyr on January 31, 2014, 10:16:00 AM
in summary, things that will be reviewed for clans, regardless:
pay scales
schedules
documentation (when applicable/necessary/desired)
things that will be trialed because it is better to see how it works on a smaller scale first:
perks for longer-lived PCs in clans (leaders)
perks for longer lived PCs in clans (non-leaders)
Awesome :) *excite*
Quote from: Nyr on January 31, 2014, 09:47:59 AM
Suck it, indies. ICly, I mean. OOCly you have support from independent staff.
Hahahahaha, so sigging that.
SHEDULES (totally did it on purpose)
When it comes to schedules, I believe people see them the wrong way. Me included. Maybe we should see them more as... bulletins. You know... like you go to the local Y and you see fliers and papers up letting you know that this is gonna happen. (excluding militaristic life-styles)
Every night at 6pm there will be zumba class
Tuesday and Thursdays there's karate at 4pm
Wednesdays at 4pm there's soft-ball
----
Sparring is every morning from dawn until noon.
You don't have to show up. It's just for your own good. Or other's own good. For the good. But if you joined a militaristic group, I mean... who's fault is it you can't do everything you want? It's no longer your character's life. The city owns you, suckuh!!
with that said... is the byn a military? I mean they're just mercenaries. Well I guess a byn leader would be the one to take offense to someone not showing up. dirty mercenaries, (i just imagined) wouldn't really care. It's mostly just fun to make fun of runners.
There is no real feasible way to fix the Armageddon economy. It's all but universally viewed as unrealistic and that is before you come to consensus on what a realistic economy would look like. This proposal runs under the assumption that changes to the buy/sell/sid nature of the game will remain functionally the same.
Currently it is possible to make vast quantities of obsidian in short periods of time. Independent characters usually work outside IC constraints and are free to utilize all avenues of obsidian making, but most characters, regardless of station, are capable of turning a profit. The whole stripping dead bodies of everything that can be pawned off phenomenon, crafting skills, selling of resources, trade routes, theft etc. There are many routes to wealth.
I am under the impression things* work this way because it is a pragmatic system. It can be abused, but it's not broken.
(*haggle/barter, foraging, crafting, npc merchants etc)
With those things in mind I propose two changes.
1.) Get rid of the bank. If you have wealth you have to have it on your body or hide it someplace. Auto payouts of salaries, noble withdraws and other, exceptional situations would need to be handled by other, clan specific npcs. That could even be a "perk": "Naw, you don't -have- to get paid this month. We'll pay you for two months next month" i.e. don't have to withdraw pay until you need it or even have house and location specific bankers.
This would force people to travel with their wealth. No more withdrawing extra sid because you see something you want on your trip to Luirs. People could not craft for profit quite as severely, spam forage/hunt so extensively nor burglarize to extremes as they'll need to use or stash their gain, not simply sell and deposit.
While this does mean that someone could possibly get in situations where they lose everything, I feel that would add to roleplaying opportunities. No extra 300 sid in the bank for water or food when times get tough. Better keep it in your boot or be prepared to have to go do something desperate.
2.) Nobles receive VASTLY increased salaries. Whatever they get paid now, it sure seems like it is not enough. A noble should be able to get sid. Just get it. If they want more, they get more. They'll be held accountable by their higher ups but in the short-term they get the coin. This would allow for real trickle-down wealth as nobles would be buying from the GMH and paying for their plots.
From here it would be a matter of massaging IC reactions to wealth. Combined with a lack of a bank, wealth would be harder to hide and as a result those with it beyond "their station" would be singled out for fleecing.
Should GMH members selling to the unaffiliated be frowned upon, the amount of "cool gear" filtering out to the player-base would be restricted to the nobles with plentiful wealth (and places to store it), noble households, city-state bureaucrats and fellow GMH'ers. Not absolutely, I wager, but without need to fund-raise from indies what motivation would a GMH merchant have? (rhetorical) This might even lessen the vendor-machine nature of GMH merchants as they could get their operating budgets from a few well-heeled clients and focus more on their plots.
Combined, these two suggestions would make the nobility seem richer and the independents seem poorer without having to revamp any existing system. Those just able to eek out a living will still be able to as there is no change to the bottom end of the spectrum. It's the upper end. People could not put together huge fortunes without some kind of secure place to store it. This would allow others to potentially make off with it, but then where do THEY keep it.
If you do have a huge fortune, what will you do with it? The nobles have all the money AND the influence so why would a GMH member sell you something special over the nobility? Sure, you can pay, but so can they and they might even remember the service fondly. Since one cannot simply add to the number with Nenyuk, hunting one more duskhorn or sewing one more silk dress will be balanced against other activities.
In the end you have richer nobles, more secure and "perky" clan membership and an independent experience not much changed yet with a lowered glass ceiling.
This is not a perfect suggestion as there are a 1001 different scenarios which would cause issue but I do not believe this is any different than the current scenario and might even add a little harshness without screwing with the learning curve excessively.
I like Marc's idea. Can someone find the flaws in it? I thought of a couple, but the situation addresses itself neatly (eg: twink raider robs everyone of ALL their sids - which is all they have. Solution: Twink raider is now stuck with 100,000 sids weighing down his pockets, and Uber Twink Raider is right around the corner, ready to lighten his load).
Quote from: Lizzie on January 31, 2014, 02:19:21 PM
I like Marc's idea. Can someone find the flaws in it? I thought of a couple, but the situation addresses itself neatly (eg: twink raider robs everyone of ALL their sids - which is all they have. Solution: Twink raider is now stuck with 100,000 sids weighing down his pockets, and Uber Twink Raider is right around the corner, ready to lighten his load).
Pretty sure I proposed that same idea a few times in this thread and the previous one.. And probably the previous previous one.. It also come close to the other idea I proposed of placing a 3000 cap on non-clanned PCs in the bank.
Things would get pretty broken unless the 5-item cap was removed from shops at the same time.
I think I'd prefer to see a solution that actually makes clans more appealing, as opposed to making an independent harder to play to the point that you should probably go for a clan whether you like it or not, while simultaneously harming playability for clans to boot. Increased noble stipends is good, though.
I wouldn't, however, be averse to giving the templarate access to unclanned PCs' bank accounts upon request (that is to say, request to staff to roll out a Nenyuki NPC to deal with it).
Quote from: Delirium on January 31, 2014, 02:28:07 PM
Things would get pretty broken unless the 5-item cap was removed from shops at the same time.
Or change the limit (I'm regurgitating this idea because I still think it's the best, plus it's mine:)
No more cap on items, and instead, caps on characters. All characters can sell up to 2 of *whatever* the NPC buys, per <insert arbitrary time period>, per NPC.
So - if I have
10 red stone daggers
5 green stone daggers
3 sandstone daggers
5 unpolished amethysts
4 rough brown hides
I can sell 2 of each color dagger to the Salarr shop, 2 red and 2 green and the last sandstone one to the wandering trader in the market, and I'll just have to hold onto the other green one and the other 6 red ones til the next <insert arbitrary time period.>
In addition, I can sell 2 amethysts to the stone buyer, unless I can polish two of them - in which case I can sell 2 polished and 2 unpolished.
I can also sell 2 brown hides to the hide buyer - unless, again, I can tan the other two, in which case I can sell 2 rough brown hides and 2 tanned brown hides to the hide buyer.
That's no matter how many other people are trying to sell them, no matter how many of each other people have, and no matter how realistic or not it is that the NPCs have unlimited funds.
Of course diamonds would need to only be worth maybe 200 sids each, before haggle, in the most remote area - maybe 300 sids max after haggle in a more publically accessable area.
Quote from: Delirium on January 31, 2014, 02:28:07 PM
Things would get pretty broken unless the 5-item cap was removed from shops at the same time.
I do not see how that is the case as the amount of obsidian made in a given time-frame would be the same. No less money is being sucked out of the npcs. The only difference is that one person will have a harder time making many thousands selling to npcs.
IMHO it will spread the wealth out more. It might also promote other forms of fungible wealth like gems and jewelry which might even alleviate the 5-item cap (make value more worthwhile as well).
Quote from: Delusion on January 31, 2014, 02:31:48 PM
I think I'd prefer to see a solution that actually makes clans more appealing, as opposed to making an independent harder to play to the point that you should probably go for a clan whether you like it or not, while simultaneously harming playability for clans to boot. Increased noble stipends is good, though.
I wouldn't, however, be averse to giving the templarate access to unclanned PCs' bank accounts upon request (that is to say, request to staff to roll out a Nenyuki NPC to deal with it).
I do not see how this makes an independent harder to play. If by harder you mean successful independents will be targeted for their wealth, I guess that is the outcome I was looking for. If by harder you mean survival will be more difficult, I have to disagree. The mechanics for generating money will not change as all the same avenues would be open. There would just be no hoarding unless said hoard is a physical presence in the game. Grebbing for salt or cotton or whatever will still provide the same income.
If you don't want the templarate to have access to your "bank account" (read: backpack/belt) maybe keeping money with friends or in your apartment or hidden in your sock is more engaging then RPing with a Nenyuki clerk and hoping an immortal is available.
Quote from: Delusion on January 31, 2014, 02:31:48 PM
I think I'd prefer to see a solution that actually makes clans more appealing, as opposed to making an independent harder to play to the point that you should probably go for a clan whether you like it or not, while simultaneously harming playability for clans to boot. Increased noble stipends is good, though.
I'd tend to agree that positive inducements are better, but this isn't so cut and dry. It makes grebbers harder to play, certainly, but it makes thieves and raiders easier, and they're almost always independents.
Oh man, are we just going to start re-stating all the pros and cons of all the ideas that's been written since the start of this thread?
Quote from: Marc on January 31, 2014, 02:09:01 PM
1.) Get rid of the bank. If you have wealth you have to have it on your body or hide it someplace. Auto payouts of salaries, noble withdraws and other, exceptional situations would need to be handled by other, clan specific npcs. That could even be a "perk": "Naw, you don't -have- to get paid this month. We'll pay you for two months next month" i.e. don't have to withdraw pay until you need it or even have house and location specific bankers.
This would force people to travel with their wealth. No more withdrawing extra sid because you see something you want on your trip to Luirs. People could not craft for profit quite as severely, spam forage/hunt so extensively nor burglarize to extremes as they'll need to use or stash their gain, not simply sell and deposit.
While this does mean that someone could possibly get in situations where they lose everything, I feel that would add to roleplaying opportunities. No extra 300 sid in the bank for water or food when times get tough. Better keep it in your boot or be prepared to have to go do something desperate.
This will not work. It's simple economics. If you're playing a noble, templar, or GMH family member and you want to hire someone successful, you can no longer offer them money because they have all they can carry and their apartment is full. To motivate them, these leaders have to offer "something" that players want. Now, the new currency is not money but whatever players will accept as payment for services. Currently, when players die, the bank helps to remove a lot of their wealth from the game. This is a good thing. We've all had the delight of renting a new apartment and finding a bunch of valuable stuff inside it. Now, imagine finding the same apartment with all that stuff and a bag filled with most of their life savings. Worse, when you die, the next player finds the apartment with the stuff and the life savings of two players. This causes inflation and devaluation of currency. Eventually, finding money is like finding piles of skinned scrab and gortok parts laying unwanted along the road.
Quote from: Marc on January 31, 2014, 02:09:01 PM
2.) Nobles receive VASTLY increased salaries. Whatever they get paid now, it sure seems like it is not enough. A noble should be able to get sid. Just get it. If they want more, they get more. They'll be held accountable by their higher ups but in the short-term they get the coin. This would allow for real trickle-down wealth as nobles would be buying from the GMH and paying for their plots.
From here it would be a matter of massaging IC reactions to wealth. Combined with a lack of a bank, wealth would be harder to hide and as a result those with it beyond "their station" would be singled out for fleecing.
Should GMH members selling to the unaffiliated be frowned upon, the amount of "cool gear" filtering out to the player-base would be restricted to the nobles with plentiful wealth (and places to store it), noble households, city-state bureaucrats and fellow GMH'ers. Not absolutely, I wager, but without need to fund-raise from indies what motivation would a GMH merchant have? (rhetorical) This might even lessen the vendor-machine nature of GMH merchants as they could get their operating budgets from a few well-heeled clients and focus more on their plots.
Combined, these two suggestions would make the nobility seem richer and the independents seem poorer without having to revamp any existing system. Those just able to eek out a living will still be able to as there is no change to the bottom end of the spectrum. It's the upper end. People could not put together huge fortunes without some kind of secure place to store it. This would allow others to potentially make off with it, but then where do THEY keep it.
If you do have a huge fortune, what will you do with it? The nobles have all the money AND the influence so why would a GMH member sell you something special over the nobility? Sure, you can pay, but so can they and they might even remember the service fondly. Since one cannot simply add to the number with Nenyuk, hunting one more duskhorn or sewing one more silk dress will be balanced against other activities.
In the end you have richer nobles, more secure and "perky" clan membership and an independent experience not much changed yet with a lowered glass ceiling.
This is not a perfect suggestion as there are a 1001 different scenarios which would cause issue but I do not believe this is any different than the current scenario and might even add a little harshness without screwing with the learning curve excessively.
I like the idea of nobles having more money. However, it only works if there are banks. What good is having more money if no one has the ability to store or keep much of it?
You can't drive people into clans by making independent characters more and more difficult to play. It's going to work much better and be more fun (which is the point of the game) if you make clans better, not independents worse.
Quote from: Malken on January 31, 2014, 02:22:30 PM
Pretty sure I proposed that same idea a few times in this thread and the previous one.. And probably the previous previous one.. It also come close to the other idea I proposed of placing a 3000 cap on non-clanned PCs in the bank.
I kind of like these ideas, but I'm worried about playability. Also, the 3k cap would be good for keeping indies lower on the food chain, but it isn't realistic from Nenyuk's perspective.
Now, what you could do is just have Nenyuk skim anything over 3k from anyone without a clan.
>balance
>The Nenyuki banker tells you:
"You have 2896 coins in your account."
>deposit 500
>With an utterly straight face, the Nenyuki banker tells you:
"You now have 3000 coins in your account."
>You say:
"What?! But I just gave you 500!"
>The Nenyuki banker tells you;
"You have 3000 coins in your account."
>Storming out of the bank, you say:
"Son of a bitch!"Alternatively, you could also have Nenyuk refuse to deal with indies in small denominations, either by skimming remainders (as above) or simply refusing.
>deposit 238
>The Nenyuki banker tells you:
"Stop wasting my time, grebber. Come back when you have three large."
>withdraw 238
>The Nenyuki banker tells you:
"Do I look like your assistant? Either withdraw more money, or stop wasting my time."Edited to add:
What this accomplishes is:
Overall caps keep indies from having too much totally secure money. It makes them more vulnerable, which they should be.
Conversely, deposit/withdrawal limits mean more liquid currency. This doesn't reduce the playability or prospects of indies at all, but it means when they get robbed or fleeced, it will be for larger amounts, hurting them more, and increasing the amount of money floating around the game world.
Or, hell, for that matter, just introduce a random chance that Nenyuk will fleece you.
If you are noble or Templar, the chance is incredibly small, and will be some small percentage of your deposit (but not less than 500 coins - why risk robbing someone important for less?), and they don't tell you (you find out when you next check your deposit).
If you are GMH family, the chance is higher, but the percentage even lower, and they tell you with a smile. That's business camaraderie (they're letting you know they're charging you for their services).
If you are any other clan, the chance is medium, and the percentages are low. They don't tell you, it's just an aggregate over time for them.
If you are indie, the chance is quite high, and the percentage taken is anywhere from very little to half of your deposit. They tell you, because they don't care how much of a stink you throw.
(as indie)
>balance
>The Nenyuki banker tells you:
"You have 583 coins in your account."
>deposit 300
>The Nenyuki banker tells you:
"You now have 757 coins in your account."
Just a quick point: small and gritty clans exist, in non-coded form, within small groups of indies. I don't see why the GMH should be gritty, nor the NHs. Neither are positioned in the world as struggling entities, and if you are not struggling, then you are not dealing with the grit. And that's realistic, and I don't really feel like it hurts anything.
What we're struggling with is making clans make sense overall, and not just deciding that you have to suspend your belief to want to be in a clan. We're suggesting all sorts of things, and some of these things have real merit (life-sworn house, pay scale increases, exclusivity). But the real struggle, from a God's-eye perspective, is balancing both clans and indies so that it all meshes to create an exquisite whole.
Indies are a crucial part of the game. That's reality, from an OOC perspective, and probably less of an IC perspective. Maybe the reality is that GMHs and NHs should really be homes for plot-makers, in most cases, non-staff story-tellers in a way. Maybe GMH merchants should be bringing indies into the story not by just providing cool tools to them, but sending them hither and thither to do the work the run of the mill GMH hunter does. Maybe GMH hunters should not exist as recruits, in the way they do today, but instead be selectively and rarely drawn from the clamoring masses who seek to attain a non-gritty experience.
Maybe the ladder of player roles needs to change a tad - instead of newb/recruit/contracted/life-sworn, perhaps it should be newb/indie/lifesworn for GMHs and NHs. Maybe the de-facto way for new players to get into the game should be service in the Byn/Sujaal's School, or the Atrium/Northern equivalent (which, yes, I know it isn't open, but ya know ... it could be), and not as a recruit to some clan. Then you stay in those clans, or go indie, and do your thing, and prove to the GMH/NH that you're worth it before you ever attain the colors of your preferred house (if you ever do).
This isn't a suggestion - it's a rough thought that I choose to share.
I can did it, but Nobles and Templars should not be fleeced. This would go against Nenyuk's political and financial well-being.
Quote from: williamson on January 31, 2014, 03:16:47 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 31, 2014, 02:09:01 PM
1.) Get rid of the bank.
This will not work. It's simple economics. If you're playing a noble, templar, or GMH family member and you want to hire someone successful, you can no longer offer them money because they have all they can carry and their apartment is full. To motivate them, these leaders have to offer "something" that players want. Now, the new currency is not money but whatever players will accept as payment for services. Currently, when players die, the bank helps to remove a lot of their wealth from the game. This is a good thing. We've all had the delight of renting a new apartment and finding a bunch of valuable stuff inside it. Now, imagine finding the same apartment with all that stuff and a bag filled with most of their life savings. Worse, when you die, the next player finds the apartment with the stuff and the life savings of two players. This causes inflation and devaluation of currency. Eventually, finding money is like finding piles of skinned scrab and gortok parts laying unwanted along the road.
Quote from: Marc on January 31, 2014, 02:09:01 PM
2.) Nobles receive VASTLY increased salaries
I like the idea of nobles having more money. However, it only works if there are banks. What good is having more money if no one has the ability to store or keep much of it?
You can't drive people into clans by making independent characters more and more difficult to play. It's going to work much better and be more fun (which is the point of the game) if you make clans better, not independents worse.
It's not a perfect system, but to these specific issues I answer as follows:
Quote
"This will not work. It's simple economics. If you're playing a noble, templar, or GMH family member and you want to hire someone successful, you can no longer offer them money because they have all they can carry and their apartment is full."
They can still offer money. Money still spends as well as it did the day before but it's not quite so easy to hoard. If someone has all the money they can carry and their apartment is full
why is offering money a temptation? I believe this harkens to the more-loot-is-good argument. An attempt to side-step the problem with acquiring too much stuff I'd just say it would be no more of a problem without a bank as with. P3oples like their lewt.
Quote"Currently, when players die, the bank helps to remove a lot of their wealth from the game. This is a good thing. We've all had the delight of renting a new apartment and finding a bunch of valuable stuff inside it. Now, imagine finding the same apartment with all that stuff and a bag filled with most of their life savings. Worse, when you die, the next player finds the apartment with the stuff and the life savings of two players. This causes inflation and devaluation of currency. Eventually, finding money is like finding piles of skinned scrab and gortok parts laying unwanted along the road."
This, admittedly, is a problem. Simply solution is apply Nenyuk's requisitioning to apartments in addition to the banks. Rent runs out? Sorry, we had to sell your belongings to make room for the next tenant. It would allow more "stuff" to disappear into the void to replace the bank account money sink and would snub the apartment lottery right quick. Finding piles of money shouldn't be a huge problem as money would lose some of its value vs tangible goods yet it would still be used to buy everything in the automated marketplaces. Which means if you find yourself with too much coin you might be forced to buy something from Salarr or Kadius, or bribe a soldier today instead of tomorrow, buy drinks or do something with it instead of it sitting in a bank.
And I am still curious how no-bank makes an independent harder to play. It's been repeated a few times now but without example. It makes accumulation for all characters harder, but harder accumulation does not equal a harder game.
As for fleecing, any coded system would have to ignore the political milieu that is pc to pc rp. Influence is hard to code.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on January 31, 2014, 04:00:50 PM
Just a quick point: small and gritty clans exist, in non-coded form, within small groups of indies. I don't see why the GMH should be gritty, nor the NHs. Neither are positioned in the world as struggling entities, and if you are not struggling, then you are not dealing with the grit. And that's realistic, and I don't really feel like it hurts anything.
What we're struggling with is making clans make sense overall, and not just deciding that you have to suspend your belief to want to be in a clan. We're suggesting all sorts of things, and some of these things have real merit (life-sworn house, pay scale increases, exclusivity). But the real struggle, from a God's-eye perspective, is balancing both clans and indies so that it all meshes to create an exquisite whole.
Indies are a crucial part of the game. That's reality, from an OOC perspective, and probably less of an IC perspective. Maybe the reality is that GMHs and NHs should really be homes for plot-makers, in most cases, non-staff story-tellers in a way. Maybe GMH merchants should be bringing indies into the story not by just providing cool tools to them, but sending them hither and thither to do the work the run of the mill GMH hunter does. Maybe GMH hunters should not exist as recruits, in the way they do today, but instead be selectively and rarely drawn from the clamoring masses who seek to attain a non-gritty experience.
Maybe the ladder of player roles needs to change a tad - instead of newb/recruit/contracted/life-sworn, perhaps it should be newb/indie/lifesworn for GMHs and NHs. Maybe the de-facto way for new players to get into the game should be service in the Byn/Sujaal's School, or the Atrium/Northern equivalent (which, yes, I know it isn't open, but ya know ... it could be), and not as a recruit to some clan. Then you stay in those clans, or go indie, and do your thing, and prove to the GMH/NH that you're worth it before you ever attain the colors of your preferred house (if you ever do).
This isn't a suggestion - it's a rough thought that I choose to share.
I'm in complete agreement.
Quote from: Cutthroat on January 31, 2014, 09:18:13 AM
The crafters/hunters thing is one that mainly concerns GMHs. Although GMHs were talked about a lot, and the thread is supposed to concern all clans, but not much was brought up about noble houses besides "lack of 'grit'" (whatever grit is to people; if you want to talk about "harshness" and "murder/corruption/betrayal" then noble houses have plenty of that) and the argument about clan pay and perks that apply broadly to all of the clans. I would be interested in seeing what people think of noble houses beyond that, considering there are far more of those than any of the other types of clans, typically 2-3 open per city at one time.
I said I'd bow out of the thread, but actually I'm gonna bow back in just for this topic. I love me some nobles.
We all love to talk about grit, which I think generally means poor, hardened, sand-worn, and without much social or political cover from the dangers of the world. I can get behind that definitely, but I don't think "grit" should be put on a pedestal to the point where we want to reduce clans that aren't. If everyone is dirt poor, the guy with 500 sids to his name is suddenly rich, grit or no. You need the upper crust around to make everyone feel poor, uncultured, and meaningless by comparison. And, frankly, some players have more fun with conflict of a more social/political sort. Luckily our game is big enough for all stripes. I'd hate to see any of the existing Noble Houses get closed down.
I agree with others who say nobles should have lots and lots of money. That's their raison d'etre, after all. But it's not so they can just look the part and blow their whole stipend on silks and tea, it's so they can spend that money in ways that will cause plots. The more money they have, the more Byn missions they can fund, the more PC merchants (indie and clanned both) they can buy from, the more spies and assassins they can hire, the more rumors they can spread, and so on. Servants in noble clans should be showered in bonuses and gifts when they're doing a good job.
I think another way to keep Noble Houses appealing is to make sure that we keep a lot of active nobles in both cities and make sure they get good support. Nobles, in my experience, feed off of conflict and competition with their peers. Social and political intrigue, which is what nobles do best, needs a critical mass of PCs in the noble strata for alliances to be made, broken, and so on. When only one or two nobles are active in a location, I think it's easy for the plot engines to sputter out. At that point, you become a sort of quest-giver, trying to keep your minions busy while you sit in the Trader's (RIP), hoping one of the other 2 PCs that are your peers might drop by. Ideally, I think two nobles in each active House is a good number to strive for.
Without getting into specifics, I am playing in a non-NH clan which some think "doesn't have conflict). I can say that my PC encounters plenty of conflict, likely half of which they generate themselves, and I see other PCs getting a decent amount of conflict as well. You can't always expect someone else to bring conflict to your door, sometimes you have to make it. Does my PC feel safe? No, there are the benefits of being in a clan, and those can protect somewhat, but that just leaves you free to start more conflict, within reason (don't damage the reputation of the house, damnit! A mistake I've made before in other clans). From my experience, no on is safe, ever. I fully expect the eyerollers and duel challengers to throw down the gauntlet and refute this, but whatever, I know what I see.
And, also, I am having a blast. A lot of the recommended "fixes" to clans, well, in my current clan PCs have been making an effort to provide that since before my PC started working there. I don't know how they make it work, nor could I get into detail if I did. I'm not sure about this, after thinking a while it struck me that maybe it's better if there is no "automated" fix, and no rules set in stone, but let the individual PC leaders decide how things are to go. Give those in authority more coin to do with as they wish may be a good idea, and let them decide where the coin goes. PC hunters and crafters been doing a bang up job? Provide them with bonuses, within reason. Need to grease a few palms to get the house what it needs? Take that extra coin and slip some bribes, and maybe tell the PCs you'd like to give bonuses to they're doing a great job, and you'll see they are rewarded in a few weeks. Greedy? Just keep it and tell everyone they're horrible and about three steps away from being unemployed.
Fujikoma - The kind of RP and conflict that would make you think, "Christ, that's the reason I play this game and even G R R Martin couldn't come up with that shit!" or the kind that makes you think, "Christ, I swear I've read the same "storyline" in last week's Archie while on my five minutes toilet break at work today ..." style?
Quote from: Malken on January 31, 2014, 05:00:05 PM
Fujikoma - The kind of RP and conflict that would make you think, "Christ, that's the reason I play this game and even G R R Martin couldn't come up with that shit!" or the kind that makes you think, "Christ, I swear I've read the same "storyline" in last week's Archie while on my five minutes toilet break at work today ..." style?
Well at first it was slow going (me being on own most of the time). I'm not going to say it's been like staring down the barrel of a loaded gun (been there, WOW, that's an interesting experience), or low-crawling three hundred yards under live fire, but things have a tendency to build up and escalate. I can't spit out any details, but things have begun to get quite interesting, with a hint of the sinister. Not like a Byn contract where you ride back barely put together and missing a quarter to half of your former comrades, that's for sure, but that's a different kind of conflict. I don't read Archie, I wouldn't know.
EDIT: Malken, I fear you will greet each thing I say with hostility until you actually play in some clans with me and get to know my PCs. I think the problem stems from the fact that you don't know exactly how I play the game. Now, our PCs may or may not have run into eachother in the past, but we wouldn't know. If you form an opinion from piecing together all my posts on the GDB you will get a horrendously inaccurate perspective.
2ndEDIT: I think doing away with banks or capping accounts would result, in some cases, in a type of "share the wealth" mentality, which, while not bad and can create plots, would work to undermine the gritty aspects of the game, and take away from the either real or perceived acts of generosity that already occur IG.
I don't think I have much more to add to the thread besides the fact that I think it's super neat staff are looking at this sort of thing, and the fact that I feel a lot of the issues people keep mentioning are up to individual leaders in clans.
Obviously staff can change documentation and whatnot for some sort of permanent change, but that takes time, when players can do make this sort of thing happen to some extent already.
Employees aren't getting paid enough?
Make more money to distribute. Hand out bonuses. Skim the clan accounts for extra funds (just make sure you put that in your reports ;))
Not enough conflict?
Make some conflict. You don't have to play the perfect character. Your PC doesn't even necessarily need some sort of material gain or whatnot. People start conflicts over all sorts of stupid things and petty disagreements. Set a goal for yourself or your clan. In my experience, staff will let you pursue a lot of things you might not have considered, if you're willing to put the time and effort in.
Amos the Indie Hunter is making more money than your minions and they're questioning why they work for you when they could work with Amos?
You fucking kill Amos. That's why they work for you.
People see the same old "kill this guy buy this thing mastercraft this thing mudsex this guy" plots because they are easy and obvious but there's so much more room for things beyond that if you go looking.
I disagree about influence being hard to code.
Influence is easy to code (though perhaps time consuming). You just add a new clan called "Friend of Tuluk" or "Friend of Allanak". Something like that. It doesn't get you in any doors, it doesn't get you discounts, but if the Nenyuk are going to fleece people, you can believe they'd fleece a recognized "friend" of important people less than they'd fleece Amos Indie. It would have the additional benefit of increasing schmoozing, since people would want to get recruited into it.
Besides, in all my time playing this game, I can think of maybe one totally indie character who genuinely had enough pull to get better treatment than any other indie. And you know why? He gave out mad bribes. You have to understand that this takes into account what they're doing on the side though. Socially acceptable "bad" things (like crime, vicious business practices, corruption) are one thing. Socially unacceptable "bad" things (anything to do with magick, being in bed with the other city state, making enemies of powerful people) don't make you an influential indie. They make you a dangerous liability.
Quote from: HavokBlue on January 31, 2014, 05:07:57 PM
Employees aren't getting paid enough?
Make more money to distribute. Hand out bonuses. Skim the clan accounts for extra funds (just make sure you put that in your reports ;))
This is a great way to get your banking privs eventually revoked as a clan leader, just fyi.
Influence could certainly be coded in. Tuluk is a great example of marginal restrictions based on simple insignia. So are the fact that merchants can give different clans different prices.
See, you report the skimming as "Extra expenses related to gear needs amongst the crew" and when the Crew asks "Did we get gear?" and one guy reports "Yeah, I just got fitted in some armor and got a weapon", then your leaders go "Well okay, that money went to equipping our hunters/guards/whatever."
"Skimming" is such a bad word to use. I prefer, "self-propagating funding to ensure a higher quality of life for leader and minion."
"Reallocation."
That was just one example, but to expand on that, I meant report it OOCly regardless of what you're ICly telling your superiors. That way staff are aware of what is happening despite the fact that Head Noble Malik isn't.
Okay I didn't read much in this thread but I will offer my opinion about clans and what could make them better.
Most of them are boring as clans. You might have wondered why X or Y clan suddenly got popular? It's because they have awesome characters in them. And often you don't know, unless you OOC whore around and ask - so you're often taking a roulette with your spanking new character when you join a clan. Mismatched timezones, so on - suddenly the clan can SUCK BALLS because of purely OOC reasons. There is no single clan that is so 'awesome' or whatever that it would be fun to play in it solo. Most clans also have rules in places that prevent you from breaking out of your solo roleplay without being a clever or creative bastard (which, honestly, not many of us are).
What I am trying to say is that clans are a group effort, you have to provide to be provided for. Creating content is the content. However, if your clan is setup in a way to limit your arena - then you'll suffer. That's why clans like Byn and Militia should need more IMM and senior player involvment because left to their own devices without clever bastards in them they become dull. Same with noble houses, in essence they're all the same, but are vastly different to play in because of the characters that inhabit them.
Alas, what you can do to make clans fun is either conscript everyone into one or open them up more and make them more fluid. Free commoners shouldn't be considered slave labour, like they often seem to be to merchant and noble houses. I am not saying we need a radical shift in policy or game world - but often you get the "YOU'RE FUCKING DEAD TO ME AMOS STONECRAFTER #234 OF KADIUS IF YOU EVER LEAVE MY FUCKING EMPLOY! I WILL HUNT YOU AND EVERYONE YOU KNOW IF YOU QUIT TO CREATE YOUR OWN MINING COMPANY!".
Also jazz clans up ffs. Give militia free mounts, better stables - have them ride wall perimiter. Give the Byn a way to make steady coins by scripting in some sort of gith clearing thing. I don't know, shit can be done to facility more roleplay and less fucking headaches over logistics with our ancient engine which is a lot of clan leadership.
Quote from: Voular on February 01, 2014, 11:30:34 AM
Okay I didn't read much in this thread but I will offer my opinion about clans and what could make them better.
Most of them are boring as clans. You might have wondered why X or Y clan suddenly got popular? It's because they have awesome characters in them. And often you don't know, unless you OOC whore around and ask - so you're often taking a roulette with your spanking new character when you join a clan. Mismatched timezones, so on - suddenly the clan can SUCK BALLS because of purely OOC reasons. There is no single clan that is so 'awesome' or whatever that it would be fun to play in it solo. Most clans also have rules in places that prevent you from breaking out of your solo roleplay without being a clever or creative bastard (which, honestly, not many of us are).
What I am trying to say is that clans are a group effort, you have to provide to be provided for. Creating content is the content. However, if your clan is setup in a way to limit your arena - then you'll suffer. That's why clans like Byn and Militia should need more IMM and senior player involvment because left to their own devices without clever bastards in them they become dull. Same with noble houses, in essence they're all the same, but are vastly different to play in because of the characters that inhabit them.
Alas, what you can do to make clans fun is either conscript everyone into one or open them up more and make them more fluid. Free commoners shouldn't be considered slave labour, like they often seem to be to merchant and noble houses. I am not saying we need a radical shift in policy or game world - but often you get the "YOU'RE FUCKING DEAD TO ME AMOS STONECRAFTER #234 OF KADIUS IF YOU EVER LEAVE MY FUCKING EMPLOY! I WILL HUNT YOU AND EVERYONE YOU KNOW IF YOU QUIT TO CREATE YOUR OWN MINING COMPANY!".
Also jazz clans up ffs. Give militia free mounts, better stables - have them ride wall perimiter. Give the Byn a way to make steady coins by scripting in some sort of gith clearing thing. I don't know, shit can be done to facility more roleplay and less fucking headaches over logistics with our ancient engine which is a lot of clan leadership.
+1
I want to encourage firing employees once more. Instill that fear of not being needed if the storage room is so full that people resort to just dropping things in boxes they don't belong.
People may not all be clever bastards, I agree, but friendships more than make up for that.
There are a shit-ton of great ideas in this thead by now, but another that comes to mind, kind of the Byn equivalent of a materials-buying NPC for the GMH, would be a Gith-gear or Gith-head bounty buyer.
I also agree with this.
I remember with one character, I decided to wash my clothes. I got that globuluk stuff and dipped all my clothes in it and then layed it all out to dry. And then, for some reason I invited my friends, who I can't remember if they were actually in the same clan as I was - but I let them in anyway because that character did what he wanted.
anyway. I remember all we did was sit and talk on the porch. One conversation in particular was about dwarves. Or midgets. Or both. - and sex. I remember having a great time. Definately one of the highlights of my arm life guys. kudos to those guys or girls.
Quote from: Chettaman on February 01, 2014, 10:53:51 PM
I also agree with this.
I remember with one character, I decided to wash my clothes. I got that globuluk stuff and dipped all my clothes in it and then layed it all out to dry. And then, for some reason I invited my friends, who I can't remember if they were actually in the same clan as I was - but I let them in anyway because that character did what he wanted.
anyway. I remember all we did was sit and talk on the porch. One conversation in particular was about dwarves. Or midgets. Or both. - and sex. I remember having a great time. Definately one of the highlights of my arm life guys. kudos to those guys or girls.
I was one. It was Salarr!
Quote from: Riev on February 02, 2014, 09:59:56 PM
Quote from: Chettaman on February 01, 2014, 10:53:51 PM
I also agree with this.
I remember with one character, I decided to wash my clothes. I got that globuluk stuff and dipped all my clothes in it and then layed it all out to dry. And then, for some reason I invited my friends, who I can't remember if they were actually in the same clan as I was - but I let them in anyway because that character did what he wanted.
anyway. I remember all we did was sit and talk on the porch. One conversation in particular was about dwarves. Or midgets. Or both. - and sex. I remember having a great time. Definately one of the highlights of my arm life guys. kudos to those guys or girls.
I was one. It was Salarr!
I was another. That there porch had a lot of sitting and talking done on it. I think Riev was our boss? That was indeed fun times. Can't remember what my character's name was.
I have played with Fujikoma's characters, mostly his half-elves, and he's great fun to RP with.
Anyone who thinks the Byn is dull has never played in the Byn. And anyone who thinks a state police force clan (Legion/AOTD) is dull hasn't realised the possibilities such a placement can give you.
Maybe that's just me but there it is.
Quote from: Scarecrow on February 03, 2014, 01:00:27 AM
I have played with Fujikoma's characters, mostly his half-elves, and he's great fun to RP with.
Anyone who thinks the Byn is dull has never played in the Byn. And anyone who thinks a state police force clan (Legion/AOTD) is dull hasn't realised the possibilities such a placement can give you.
Maybe that's just me but there it is.
Oh! Holy shit! Thanks!
Yeah, those clans definitely do not look dull. I don't see a clan that looks dull. Maybe I'm a bit off here, but it seems like it's what you make it, you know? PC doesn't like the boss? Fuck him, give him the finger and throw a mug in his face. Maybe you die, but that's just how it is. Clan's dull? Get out there and start some trouble. Maybe you get arrested, executed, fired or something, but that's what happens sometimes. Start crap, make things happen. Can't just wait for someone else to come along and make them happen, especially if your boss is always gone.
That said, more money would be nice, until then, there's always breaking the rules, stealing, side work, etc.
Having only read mostly the front page, mind you, I'll chip in.
1) Don't raise clan pay: crush indep money making. Sure, lots will argue this isn't/fair/fun whatever. But the simple truth is, indep play isn't harsh enough on indeps. They're the scum that should be crushed under boot. This is Arm, inflation is not M/C/B approved.
Note: I contend still that the whole of the game economy is entirely out of whack and could use a massive overhaul, top to bottom. So this is not a meager thing to request.
2) Clans are: restrictive/force schedules: BS. Some might, but where have you been playing lately? Byn is the Byn, mind you, but in no way, shape, or form are all clans the Byn. And even in the Byn, there's favoritism, differences in style, and so on.
3) Clans are good to play in because they give you 100% certain plot. You won't just jump in feet first into the thick of it 9/10 times, but once you've had a rl month under your belt playing in one, the shit will hit the fan. And if you aren't living a rl month, then, I say to you, that you have other problems to worry about than this thread.
Edit: Chewing on this a bit more, I thought I should add clans do need some love. Things like giving Noble house Sergeant+ ranks legal immunity so they can cut down random theives/elves/idiots. Compiling on the money scarcity with superelitebadass Merchant House gear for their crews that's the envy (and out of reach) of Joe Dirt. I believe all of these kinds of tweaks would up the ante of the game in a rewarding way. Especially if done in tandem with one another.
Quote from: Kryos on February 03, 2014, 02:15:16 AM
Having only read mostly the front page, mind you, I'll chip in.
1) Don't raise clan pay: crush indep money making. Sure, lots will argue this isn't/fair/fun whatever. But the simple truth is, indep play isn't harsh enough on indeps. They're the scum that should be crushed under boot. This is Arm, inflation is not M/C/B approved.
Note: I contend still that the whole of the game economy is entirely out of whack and could use a massive overhaul, top to bottom. So this is not a meager thing to request.
2) Clans are: restrictive/force schedules: BS. Some might, but where have you been playing lately? Byn is the Byn, mind you, but in no way, shape, or form are all clans the Byn. And even in the Byn, there's favoritism, differences in style, and so on.
3) Clans are good to play in because they give you 100% certain plot. You won't just jump in feet first into the thick of it 9/10 times, but once you've had a rl month under your belt playing in one, the shit will hit the fan. And if you aren't living a rl month, then, I say to you, that you have other problems to worry about than this thread.
Edit: Chewing on this a bit more, I thought I should add clans do need some love. Things like giving Noble house Sergeant+ ranks legal immunity so they can cut down random theives/elves/idiots. Compiling on the money scarcity with superelitebadass Merchant House gear for their crews that's the envy (and out of reach) of Joe Dirt. I believe all of these kinds of tweaks would up the ante of the game in a rewarding way. Especially if done in tandem with one another.
Noble houses are not the Militia. They don't -get- legal immunity, because they can fucking abuse that.
Let's say a noble Sergeant+ sees Sergeant Kadius/Salarr/Byn, and Sergeant Kadius/Salarr/Byn has been brawling with him. Sergeant+ Noble worker attackes Sergeant Kadius/Salarr/Byn because he can get away with it, the guards jump in, and a long-lived GMH guy just died. That's not fucking fun, that's -stupid-.
Quote from: evilcabbage on February 03, 2014, 03:05:12 AM
Let's say a noble Sergeant+ sees Sergeant Kadius/Salarr/Byn, and Sergeant Kadius/Salarr/Byn has been brawling with him. Sergeant+ Noble worker attackes Sergeant Kadius/Salarr/Byn because he can get away with it, the guards jump in, and a long-lived GMH guy just died. That's not fucking fun, that's -stupid-.
This is something that can happen already with militia/legion privates and higher. I rarely, if ever, have seen abuse of this nature happen, probably because when a militia private is made, he is told not to abuse his law immunity or there will be consequences - but the reality of the situation is that a militia private could hit Lord Oash in the face with his hammer and Lord Oash would go to jail (or die). There's a lot more militia privates+ than there are noble house Sergeants, and I'm sure the same rules would apply, so I don't really think the argument can be made that adding this feature will cause abuse and therefore it should not be added.
We can argue it from another perspective, though, like you feel this feature should not be added because it conflicts in some way with the IC reality of what the law would realistically allow.
I sorta like the idea, myself, but I like the idea of a more flexible criminal code more - which is a conversation for another thread.
On the other hand, there's already a lot of roles who can do that, militia folks and Kuraci for example, and those who misuse don't last long. Militia privates are just as likely to kill someone who pisses them off, and it takes less time to climb one rank than the three or four it might take to make Sarge+ in a Noble House.
Edited to add - This was in response to Cabbage. LauraMars Ninja'd me.
Doesn't matter. The law is already powerful enough in that regard, and we have plenty of people who are immune to the law/can empower others to be immune to the law as -necessary- to act in those situations. The Templarate handles the law, and they don't let Nobles -workers- flash immunity to it, because that would imply that Noblemans working class are equal to the Law. They're not even close.
Quote from: evilcabbage on February 03, 2014, 03:20:22 AM
Doesn't matter. The law is already powerful enough in that regard, and we have plenty of people who are immune to the law/can empower others to be immune to the law as -necessary- to act in those situations. The Templarate handles the law, and they don't let Nobles -workers- flash immunity to it, because that would imply that Noblemans working class are equal to the Law. They're not even close.
I may have missed this update - who's allowed to empower others to be immune to the law as necessary? There was an old gripe of mine that a noble Lord defied by a Rinth rat in public couldn't just order his men to seize the miscreant and drag him away, or have the rat cut down on the spot. Has that been fixed? I feel that nobles themselves should certainly be able to suspend crimcode for their followers temporarily, certainly as regards actions against those low on the social ladder and possibly even entirely - the consequences that will come to a noble who orders his followers to cut down a GMH member probably should come through a mechanism other than an onslaught of NPC guards.
I believe cabbage might be referring to rare instances when a templar or militia sergeant with recruiting privs temporarily recruits someone into the militia clan so that they won't be crimmed by NPC soldiers for doing stuff a templar orders them to do, like subdue an elf or whatever. There might be a time when a templar needs PC backup, but none of his lackeys are online, so he grabs Red Scorpion Amos and Wyvern Malik to help him hunt down an elf. This isn't very common, though.
Allowing noble guards crim code immunity, or giving nobles power to grant immunity is an interesting idea. I'm not sure where I fall on it. On one hand, it's sure annoying as a noble when someone is standing there insulting you and your three guards, and you aren't able to get any PC law enforcement to come handle him. But I don't think that's -too- common either, and when it does happen the situation usually ends up like you think, just not always as timely as we would like. On the other hand, there's an interesting balance of power that exists between nobles (who have lots of money, but no direct coded power) and templars (who have lots of power, but need to earn money and influence from friends). I'm not sure empowering the nobility to be less dependent on templars is a good way to go.
All that said, I do wish the crim code was a little better about taking status and severity of crime into account, but as Laura said, that should maybe be in another thread!
Quote from: Nyr on January 31, 2014, 10:03:43 AM
PCs can create clans and do this if they want that. There won't be any guarantee of coded support but that is part of the difficulty (and allure) of such a thing.
Just chiming in to say that this is by far one of my favorite things to do. Warning, it almost never works out for the long-term, if you do it right you will make the actual merchant/noble Houses you are competing with angry, and they will come after you to try and ruin you.
However, running an indy clan/organization that isn't just riding in the wake of some other House or established organization and playing it "safe" is one of the more rewarding and plot starting/driving things you can do.
I highly suggest that if you are a veteran player, and are capable of doing this, you should try it at least once.
You want conflict? This will get you all of the conflict you want and more.
There isn't a lot of House on House conflict generally. But you make an indy clan that deals in something another established organization deals in, and you will see what it is like quickly to compete IC'ly with a monopoly.
Be the change you want to see in Armageddon. If you are complaining there is no competition for Houses and established monopolies, create some, it can be done, has been done, and it is a lot of fun.
Signed - The guy who has been assassinated/killed by Salarr, the T'zai Byn (twice), and Kadius, for messing with their monopolies with indy clans.
OOC'ly it also creates a TON of fun for everyone involved. Those House family members WANT to be messed with so they can play the "ruthless" merchants and shut down their competition. They don't get to do it a lot, so please, consider their feelings and give them someone to go after. :)
Quote from: Desertman on February 03, 2014, 12:04:40 PM
Quote from: Nyr on January 31, 2014, 10:03:43 AM
PCs can create clans and do this if they want that. There won't be any guarantee of coded support but that is part of the difficulty (and allure) of such a thing.
Just chiming in to say that this is by far one of my favorite things to do. Warning, it almost never works out for the long-term, if you do it right you will make the actual merchant/noble Houses you are competing with angry, and they will come after you to try and ruin you.
However, running an indy clan/organization that isn't just riding in the wake of some other House or established organization and playing it "safe" is one of the more rewarding and plot starting/driving things you can do.
I highly suggest that if you are a veteran player, and are capable of doing this, you should try it at least once.
You want conflict? This will get you all of the conflict you want and more.
I've done this now three times, and honestly most forms of coded support aren't at all necessary... with one exception. I really really wish we could have something like a clan board for the sole purpose of organizing play schedules. Contacting everyone in game to OOC about when everyone will be on constantly is easily and above my least favorite part of creating organizations in game.
Quote from: Desertman on February 03, 2014, 12:04:40 PM
Those House family members WANT to be messed with so they can play the "ruthless" merchants and shut down their competition. They don't get to do it a lot, so please, consider their feelings and give them someone to go after. :)
<3 Dman
Or maybe the House family wants someone who can throw ludicrous bribes at them begging them to -not- kill them, so they can make a KILLINg off that indie crew shortly before shutting them down.
Quote from: Kryos on February 03, 2014, 02:15:16 AM
Having only read mostly the front page, mind you, I'll chip in.
1) Don't raise clan pay: crush indep money making. Sure, lots will argue this isn't/fair/fun whatever. But the simple truth is, indep play isn't harsh enough on indeps. They're the scum that should be crushed under boot. This is Arm, inflation is not M/C/B approved.
I like this idea too! Make it alot harder for independents to make coin. - I'm still all for increasing pay and/or having it happen more often.
Make it harder for salting and whatever else that should be considered menial tasks to be lucrative, sure. But making it impossible for independent merchants to be profitable will only hurt role play overall.
Not all independent PCs are dirty grebbers or 'the scum that should be crushed under the boot,' and thinking that way seems pretty ridiculous to me.
Luckily, this doesn't seem to be staff's aim, judging from this thread.
If people feel that one thing is more fun that another, I'm almost always of the opinion that the thing that is considered less fun should be fixed, not the thing that people already like.
Quote from: HavokBlue on February 03, 2014, 06:41:37 PM
If people feel that one thing is more fun that another, I'm almost always of the opinion that the thing that is considered less fun should be fixed, not the thing that people already like.
Said it better than I did!
Quote from: FreeRangeVestric on February 03, 2014, 06:42:39 PM
Quote from: HavokBlue on February 03, 2014, 06:41:37 PM
If people feel that one thing is more fun that another, I'm almost always of the opinion that the thing that is considered less fun should be fixed, not the thing that people already like.
Said it better than I did!
Hear hear.
I was thinking that crafted items should cost more and rocks, gem stones, hides, bones and the like should cost less.
I understand making coin is easy.
I also understand surviving is easy.
you don't need coins to survive.
crafter characters will make enough coin to sustain or even prosper while people who hunt make a meager amount only surviving. - this may lead to wanting to work for others.
+1 to more fun!
Well. Inexperienced players might have a hard time having fun with hard mode.
I can see what you all are saying now. It's a playability vs realistic thing again. I don't really have a problem with it being easy to make coin anyway.
As a gamer who loved to play games that would have me lost for weeks, I hate new games and how they tell me where to go so readily. - what I'm saying is, I like it hard. ; )
You can definitely hardmode it in Armageddon. You just have to stop giving yourself coded advantages.
I'm not sure there is an easy mode at all. The imms exist.
Quote from: HavokBlue on February 03, 2014, 06:41:37 PM
If people feel that one thing is more fun that another, I'm almost always of the opinion that the thing that is considered less fun should be fixed, not the thing that people already like.
I agree with this wholeheartedly.
I love how this thread is called "how to make clans more appealing" And the only way many can think of is to make everything else crappier. Hey, If we park this wreck next to this junker, the junker will look like a gem!
Now I do not know about anybody else, but if I join a clan, and what clan I join depends on what thematic experience I desire. That is why Byn is normally my fav, it actually has that. Other clans have in the past, Salarr expansion division, Tor, Winrothol...of course militia and Legion do as well. Though of late I have found it to be lacking in all clans other then Byn/legion/militia. I still propose that you all look at what the clan is supposed to be and make it even more of that...make them more distinct...even just the players doing so will make each clan more appealing.
As to making it hard for indies to make/keep coin...HAH...that only hurts the newbs. Older players decide what the PC is going to be and keep it that way. I make coin as needed for many of my PCs because I WANT them to be poor...I know many others do as well. Sometimes it is simply because I want more time to socialize though.
Course, with many of my PCs, if making coin in a legal manner became too hard...Eh...Just target those rich clan PCs...help the clan turnover rate. Many others would just set sights on newb coin again.
Quote from: X-D on February 03, 2014, 10:45:43 PM
I love how this thread is called "how to make clans more appealing" And the only way many can think of is to make everything else crappier. Hey, If we park this wreck next to this junker, the junker will look like a gem!
Now I do not know about anybody else, but if I join a clan, and what clan I join depends on what thematic experience I desire. That is why Byn is normally my fav, it actually has that. Other clans have in the past, Salarr expansion division, Tor, Winrothol...of course militia and Legion do as well. Though of late I have found it to be lacking in all clans other then Byn/legion/militia. I still propose that you all look at what the clan is supposed to be and make it even more of that...make them more distinct...even just the players doing so will make each clan more appealing.
As to making it hard for indies to make/keep coin...HAH...that only hurts the newbs. Older players decide what the PC is going to be and keep it that way. I make coin as needed for many of my PCs because I WANT them to be poor...I know many others do as well. Sometimes it is simply because I want more time to socialize though.
Course, with many of my PCs, if making coin in a legal manner became too hard...Eh...Just target those rich clan PCs...help the clan turnover rate. Many others would just set sights on newb coin again.
I carefully considered the wording of the thread title because there's already a thread devoted to making life harder for independents to fix the problem while most of my focus was on this subject and I kept innapropriately posting in the other thread. I'd much rather explore the side of the issue that focuses on making the game more fun for individual players than soul-crushing, because you can already choose that for yourself if you wish. Thanks for pointing that out.
Quote from: Delirium on February 03, 2014, 08:23:39 PM
You can definitely hardmode it in Armageddon. You just have to stop giving yourself coded advantages.
Well joining a clan should be hard mode, if you ask me. You're now around other players who expect to have fun and to have fun all the time. EVERYONE expects something of you. Hence the hope that this thread will give people ideas to have more fun that people aren't having.
If people aren't having fun in a clan they should consider looking inward more than outward. The clan is there. You're all together (whenever you're on) have fun together. I tend to limit myself with anti-social characters so I haven't really clanned in a while.
suggestion again: just try new things instead of riding out and killing things together and maybe getting into an exciting thing where a raptor showed up in the grass lands duel-wielding bastard swords - and you and your buddy managed to beat it. or waking up to spar, eat and sleep - if you even ever sleep.
Those are things everyone does.
luck (good or bad) you run into something you can tell a story about.
Training do it without armor. Gladiators did it? okay, the training suggestion isn't as good, but I mean what else can you think of? Ooh. How about actually excersing? Trust me. I know fighting is an excersize in itself, but I mean... you're not gonna be muscle bound just by fighting your whole life? You must of lifted something in your time. Maybe even run to build better cardio. Training is training. You could even break rocks with your head like ''monks'' or something.
Make every kill worth while. (especially bastard-raptors) The feeling of being the hunter and not the hunted will make your experience better, not just being the dood who rides up and kills things. Make every training session painful and challenging. Sweat and tears will make your experience better. And motivation. Clans are teams and team mates motivate each other to be better than they were the day before! The hour before! The minute before! The second before! Rub some dirt in it and get the hell up, there's still training to be done. You've had your nose broken before. Who the hell needs a medic? Your teeth fell out! You didn't notice! Ha ha! That's what I'm talkin' about! Medics are for softies.
Heh, I once harassed one indie merchant with my Kadian to the point that staff (or an NPC, can't remember which) told me to stop, that such a small problem wasn't worth the resources expended.
I was proud. :D
Leaders:
This includes non-sponsored positions of power too, will make or break a clan/house for appeal. Imo, the best leaders are the one's who ask the most questions, and incorporate the clan/house design to suit and entertain the player/PC instead of shoving them into a rigid place/position. "I now pronounce you Kadian hunter #4374! Go forth and collect shit for our crafters, and I'll check in on you every few RL days. Or weeks" (example, not bashing current kadian leaders) Then of course there's delegation, coming up with any excuse/reason to have an RPT, and so on - but those issues have been beaten to death. Carrying on....
Have a cookie!
Most people get enjoyment or feel appreciated for their efforts and RP when they get a pat on the head and a "Good Job." Clans/Houses should be willing and able to do this. They're suppose to be highly sought after, near impossible to obtain positions. Yes, the free food, water and roof is /suppose/ to be enough, when we all live in a world where all of the above are a daily fight to survive and keep safe - but they're not when it comes down to it. Anyone who's played the game for more then an RL week will know how to get these things without ever looking at a clan/house. On the flip side, its entirely jarring (at least to me) to have "special armor" or "more pay" handed out until you earn some actual rank. - That leaves a fairly big gap between recruit and Sergeant to muddle through, however.
Solution: Promote without coded promotion. I'm preeeeetty sure that a House with hundreds of employees isn't going to have the time/care to micro-manage everything that goes down. That's where middle management comes in (your sarge/overseer) and they don't want to deal with /every/ headache or mundane task, so "promoting" your recruit arse to be in charge of XYZ makes their life easier and serves to make their grunts feel of value and work harder. Win/Win. - And if you're the type to enjoy conflict, slack off and make your boss look bad - Win again.
Schedule:
Been covered plenty so far, and I agree certain Houses/clans shouldn't have rigid schedules at all - There does need to be some sort of balance from you, the player, however. How is your PC earning their keep if not showing up (even if there aren't any others about) to "work"? Give your bar-sitting, or solo-hunting/grebbing some purpose towards who you work for to keep /some/ realism.
Inner-city conflict:
Lovely. You have enemies way on the opposite side of the Known you're all suppose to hate and war against. How often do you see them or have a battle of some sort? Next to zip. - How often do you, as a Cavalier see a Tenneshi? Or a Kadian see a Salarri? Probably a damn lot. Clans/Houses should /constantly/ be at war with one another in their own city, to make themselves stronger and look better to their King. Get some brawls between the two going, slander some names, bed their mates just to piss them off!
Note: Unless it gets to the point to screw with the bottom line, or cause open bloodshed in the streets, Nobles/Templars shouldn't have the time or interest to get involved in commoner, petty bullshit - nor should employees be running to them to hide after getting a bloody nose - Suck it up. Unless you're going to be killed, or injured to the point you can't serve your purpose to the House/Clan, they (leaders) shouldn't give two shits.
RPTs/HRPT Clan style:
Make your fun publicly known, but exclusive. Unless you're Fale, why is the whole city invited to your event? Hey! You're not Arm/Legions/Borsail/Kadius! You're not invited! Get outta here! - Two RL days later, after the excluded PC(s) saw the mantis head...."Hi, I'm Amos/Talia - can I join?"
I think it's important to note that the fun of playing independent character is not the ease of making vast sums of money. At least, I sincerely hope that is not the case, since that seems contrary to the theme of the game. The game supposed to involve struggle, and not just the struggle to keep all your stuff in merely three apartments. I mention this because making it more challenging to hoard coins wouldn't have to make independent characters less fun.
I play mostly independent PCs because that's the roles I -like- to place. Social outcasts, loners, assholes, adventurers, explorers.
Not everyone that plays indies does it for wealth. I've seldom played indies that cared about coins at all after they had everything they needed. Coins are useless to a desert traveler with decent gear.
Quote from: Desertman on February 03, 2014, 12:04:40 PM
Just chiming in to say that this is by far one of my favorite things to do. Warning, it almost never works out for the long-term, if you do it right you will make the actual merchant/noble Houses you are competing with angry, and they will come after you to try and ruin you.
However, running an indy clan/organization that isn't just riding in the wake of some other House or established organization and playing it "safe" is one of the more rewarding and plot starting/driving things you can do.
I highly suggest that if you are a veteran player, and are capable of doing this, you should try it at least once.
You want conflict? This will get you all of the conflict you want and more.
There isn't a lot of House on House conflict generally. But you make an indy clan that deals in something another established organization deals in, and you will see what it is like quickly to compete IC'ly with a monopoly.
This, this, so much this.
But I also find this plays into my GMH gripes. The way GMHs have been positioned in the world, they are well beyond being threatened by some two-bit operation opening a shop in the Common Quarter or Freil's. Their revenues are vast, and come from supplying the nobles and militia of the citystates. They're entitled to be unfriendly to others trying to make it in their line of work, but this makes more sense when they're contemptuous and disparaging than when they're viewing it as some kind of war, as though they had an opponent worth plotting against. It's a war not on rivals - they have plenty of more prosperous rivals sitting pretty in NPC shops - but on PCs, and it's pretty ugly, up there with being stolen from and walking past several NPC elves to pounce on a PC elf as the most likely culprit.
It's hard to create a new organisation. It's a fragile undertaking simply building up a group of good people and keeping them alive. When beyond this, a new organisation exists on a radically smaller scale than almost every existing organisation in the gameworld, unrealistic conflicts rising out of the boredom of sponsored characters who don't have any real dangers to their organisation to stay on top of are a serious problem, a force working to keep things stagnant.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on February 04, 2014, 10:04:52 AM
Heh, I once harassed one indie merchant with my Kadian to the point that staff (or an NPC, can't remember which) told me to stop, that such a small problem wasn't worth the resources expended.
I was proud. :D
Indeed, your pride in being told off for poor roleplay does you much credit.
----
More generally, Nyr's already posted to say that it's seldom the case that indies accumulate coin just for the pleasure of accumulation. Much of it goes on driving roleplay and plots. In other words, it's a warchest which gets opened to provide inducements to other, poorer PCs. Brainstorming ideas to make "hoarding" coins harder is counterproductive.
Still, I'd be happy for acquiring easily accessible raw materials to be a relatively low-value activity. It sounds like there are certain areas of brokenness there which might bear being looked at.
Quote from: Quirk on February 05, 2014, 10:58:53 AMQuote from: FantasyWriter on February 04, 2014, 10:04:52 AM
Heh, I once harassed one indie merchant with my Kadian to the point that staff (or an NPC, can't remember which) told me to stop, that such a small problem wasn't worth the resources expended.
I was proud. :D
Indeed, your pride in being told off for poor roleplay does you much credit.
I don't see what's "poor" about a character misjudging a situation and an NPC superior coming and telling them to knock it off. GMH PCs
are allowed to have flaws and stuff. They may even be interesting characters, although at least a few are faced with being treated like mobile vending machines and sometimes also with dealing with "I ordered fifty novelty hats from your predecessor. Give them to me right now! What, you don't have them? You suck." I haven't seen that recently, at least. And, in the game, GMH PCs interact primarily with commoners in the cities. Sometimes family members might deal more with nobility and templars. Deals made by Senior Merchants and slave labour mass-producing stuff for armies aren't really relevant except as some background thing, because that's all done by NPCs.
Quote from: Quirk on February 05, 2014, 10:58:53 AM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on February 04, 2014, 10:04:52 AM
Heh, I once harassed one indie merchant with my Kadian to the point that staff (or an NPC, can't remember which) told me to stop, that such a small problem wasn't worth the resources expended.
I was proud. :D
Indeed, your pride in being told off for poor roleplay does you much credit.
Perhaps the pendulum shifts in that regard. Right now, I would say that we actively try to encourage PC leaders in GMHs to deal with competition from independents. Buy them out, make their lives miserable, kill their crew, price them out of the area, etc. If the House truly has the stance that no single independent is competition, then they're not that good of a monopoly. At some point and at some level, the PC action has to be around PCs.
I would think BIG BROTHER is watching to be very fitting on Zalanthas. I hope snuffing the up and coming master crafter IS one of the things that GMH pcs do.
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 11:21:01 AM
Perhaps the pendulum shifts in that regard. Right now, I would say that we actively try to encourage PC leaders in GMHs to deal with competition from independents. Buy them out, make their lives miserable, kill their crew, price them out of the area, etc. If the House truly has the stance that no single independent is competition, then they're not that good of a monopoly.
Historically, these clans were not meant to be absolute monopolies, merely huge merchant clans. In the present, they're still not absolute monopolies: plenty of NPC vendors exist selling gear of the same types these Houses trade in. The monopoly, such as it is, lies in their trading relationships with the rich and powerful city clans. But these relationships are cemented above PC level; PCs aren't going to stop Borsail as a whole buying Salarri weapons, or end Fale's reliance on Kadius. There is no possibility of PC competition. If we ignore this and assume that they're greedy for every last sid no matter how grubby, and that they're going to shift their sights downward to pick on those who could be construed to be a far-future threat, however, there is no compelling reason for a GMH member to pick on a couple of itinerant peddler PCs over an NPC with enough substance to own or rent premises in the competitive bazaar.
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 11:21:01 AM
At some point and at some level, the PC action has to be around PCs.
The problem is one of scale. On the one hand we have clans written into a position of massive wealth and untouchability; on the other hand we have dribs and drabs of perhaps half a dozen people. There is no sensible way to have the former feel threatened by the latter, and any conflict that does take place is guaranteed to end in the favour of those with infinite resources.
This is the same lack of realism that used to be seen in the templars who insisted that all PCs bow to them when entering a virtually crowded room. Yes, picking on PCs creates interaction. When it's unrealistic interaction, it leaves a sour taste in the mouth. If such unrealistic interaction is viewed as somehow necessary to the role, there's a problem with the role. The creation of "conflict" which is no more than PC bullying is something that was supposedly ironed out of templars long ago, and shouldn't be allowed to find a new home elsewhere.
If city clans of an intermediate size existed, the gulf between the small groups of indie PCs and the huge clans could be filled by entities with meaningful grounds to interact with both. For now, there's no reason for these huge clans to interact with the groups of indies save malice. Exciting as it may be to attempt to hold out against infinitely deep pockets and documented influence, GMH intervention condemns player created businesses to an eventual death, and in doing so, squashes one of the main outlets players have to fight staleness entering the setting. I am disappointed to see the "pendulum" swinging toward giving that malice imm support.
It's probably better to view GMHs more like a chain of franchises than one monolithic group where the boss handles every last bit of trouble, where the day-to-day is concerned. Senior Merchant Amos just isn't going to bother coming and helping Junior Agent Talia out with some petty problem. He has his hands full already. Sucks to be Talia if she can't figure it out herself, and it better be pretty serious to request assistance from other entities within the House.
Quote from: Quirk on February 05, 2014, 01:08:27 PM
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 11:21:01 AM
Perhaps the pendulum shifts in that regard. Right now, I would say that we actively try to encourage PC leaders in GMHs to deal with competition from independents. Buy them out, make their lives miserable, kill their crew, price them out of the area, etc. If the House truly has the stance that no single independent is competition, then they're not that good of a monopoly.
Historically, these clans were not meant to be absolute monopolies, merely huge merchant clans. In the present, they're still not absolute monopolies: plenty of NPC vendors exist selling gear of the same types these Houses trade in. The monopoly, such as it is, lies in their trading relationships with the rich and powerful city clans. But these relationships are cemented above PC level; PCs aren't going to stop Borsail as a whole buying Salarri weapons, or end Fale's reliance on Kadius. There is no possibility of PC competition. If we ignore this and assume that they're greedy for every last sid no matter how grubby, and that they're going to shift their sights downward to pick on those who could be construed to be a far-future threat, however, there is no compelling reason for a GMH member to pick on a couple of itinerant peddler PCs over an NPC with enough substance to own or rent premises in the competitive bazaar.
*shrug* It gives GMH leaders something else to do if they choose to do so, and it is an option for GMH staff to pursue if they choose to do so. You may (and apparently do) hate it. Nuff said, I guess.
Quote
The problem is one of scale. On the one hand we have clans written into a position of massive wealth and untouchability; on the other hand we have dribs and drabs of perhaps half a dozen people. There is no sensible way to have the former feel threatened by the latter, and any conflict that does take place is guaranteed to end in the favour of those with infinite resources.
This is the same lack of realism that used to be seen in the templars who insisted that all PCs bow to them when entering a virtually crowded room. Yes, picking on PCs creates interaction. When it's unrealistic interaction, it leaves a sour taste in the mouth. If such unrealistic interaction is viewed as somehow necessary to the role, there's a problem with the role. The creation of "conflict" which is no more than PC bullying is something that was supposedly ironed out of templars long ago, and shouldn't be allowed to find a new home elsewhere.
It looks like you have strong feelings about what sponsored roles should be doing with their time. Differences of opinion, I suppose.
QuoteIf city clans of an intermediate size existed, the gulf between the small groups of indie PCs and the huge clans could be filled by entities with meaningful grounds to interact with both. For now, there's no reason for these huge clans to interact with the groups of indies save malice. Exciting as it may be to attempt to hold out against infinitely deep pockets and documented influence, GMH intervention condemns player created businesses to an eventual death, and in doing so, squashes one of the main outlets players have to fight staleness entering the setting. I am disappointed to see the "pendulum" swinging toward giving that malice imm support.
Your view of what is appropriate to play is certainly valid but it's only one view.
Since this thread seems to still be you barking up the tree of "I hate GMHs" I think it'd be a good choice to go ahead and lock it. I've pointed out what we're doing for clans overall and I've pointed out some reasonable feedback, but your obsession with GMH stuff needs to find a different outlet.