How to make clans more appealing?

[ale six]

Williamson, I don't disagree with you when you say the game is meant to be played over months and not weeks, and it's true clanned characters maybe have a small advantage in preserving their net worth over independents, seeing as how they have a locker which is mostly immune from random burglars (but not, as many a frustrated player will tell you, immune from their own clan mates!), and they probably have more protection from being shaken down for coin than an indie does. But at the RL year mark, given a player with constant playtimes and decent skill, I think the distinction is pretty academic. By that point you'll be much richer than the average PC regardless of if you're independent or not, even if all you have is "only" a lot of coins in the bank, an apartment, a collection of interesting gear and biographies.

If we really want to be true to the ideal that working for a clan should be a job most commoners would feel lucky to have, though, it shouldn't take an RL year for the scales to tip in a clanned character's favor. For the majority of that year, while catching up to the curve, your clanned PC with his supposedly "lucky" job is surrounded by independents who are able to toss down plenty more coin on gear, apartments, spice, whores, bribes, and so on - and make the money back much faster. If the pay were about the same, but being independent was just a trade of less security for more freedom, I think we'd be in a better place. Not everyone wants to join a clan, but I wish economics wasn't a reason for people to stay away.

[Lizzie]

rent backroom me talia

The bouncer says, in sirihish:  "You don't haev enough money to rent this for the night.  You will need 98 more 'sid."

say "only need it for 5 min"

Hourly rates FTW Nyr.  30 RL minutes = 25 sids. After 30 minutes, the door opens and the bartender tells you to pay another 25 minutes or get lost. That'll solve the problem of people who need a private place for an impromptu meeting/mudsex/job interview, but don't want to give up a quarter of their monthly pay (100 sids) for the privilege (remember clanned recruits generally get paid nothing, and next-level employees don't get much more than 100-200/pay period).

[James de Monet]

We're a very long way from the Borgias.

You might be surprised.

Granted, when you only have 3-6 nobles in a given city, the amount of scheming and backstabbing that can occur is somewhat limited, but if you think it isn't happening, you're wrong.

And granted, you don't have Montagues and Capulets breaking to new mutiny in the streets, but you don't have a lot of "gritty" characters griping about getting shivved the night before over a wayward comment either. That's an issue with the finality of crim code, not a lack of conflict.

[Fujikoma]

Solution: Start indie. Greb, move to salting, get good, buy some decent starter and survival gear. Join clan. When coins dwindle, sneak out every once in a while and salt up 1k coins responsibly. Problem solved.

[Quirk]

You might be surprised.

Granted, when you only have 3-6 nobles in a given city, the amount of scheming and backstabbing that can occur is somewhat limited, but if you think it isn't happening, you're wrong.

And granted, you don't have Montagues and Capulets breaking to new mutiny in the streets, but you don't have a lot of "gritty" characters griping about getting shivved the night before over a wayward comment either. That's an issue with the finality of crim code, not a lack of conflict.

With regard to the Borgias: scheming and backstabbing exists, sure. But literally killing a noble of another House for your own profit and having your House back you up? Let alone rising to the top on a tide of murders? I've some scepticism there. Actions likely to put Houses in conflict usually, in my past experience, led to the nobles being quietly disowned. Admittedly I did spend nearly seven years away from the game before my return, and maybe things have changed on that front. On the other hand, I returned to a suspiciously identical-looking set of rich clans. It's hard not to believe in a deep underlying stability when everything looks so close to the same over the course of an in-game half-century.

Similarly, it's not even the lack of midnight running battles I bemoan - it's the lack of tensions implying people would fight them if they could.

I'm more bothered by the economic monopolists than the nobles though. Historically there was at least some level of tension and enmity between a few of the Noble Houses, enough to keep me from complaining. Kadius and Salarr have seemed kind of disappointing to me since things quieted down after the Rebellion. Neutrality is good for business, but bad for stories.

[williamson]

Williamson, I don't disagree with you when you say the game is meant to be played over months and not weeks, and it's true clanned characters maybe have a small advantage in preserving their net worth over independents, seeing as how they have a locker which is mostly immune from random burglars (but not, as many a frustrated player will tell you, immune from their own clan mates!), and they probably have more protection from being shaken down for coin than an indie does. But at the RL year mark, given a player with constant playtimes and decent skill, I think the distinction is pretty academic. By that point you'll be much richer than the average PC regardless of if you're independent or not, even if all you have is "only" a lot of coins in the bank, an apartment, a collection of interesting gear and biographies.

Problem: Sometimes characters steal from your footlocker despite the fact that most barracks have NPCs or room descriptions with VNPCs.

Solution: Some people might suggest submitting a player complaint. However, I despise player complaints because I think most of them are a waste of staff time. I suggest that footlockers have locks. Your boss distributes your key when you get the footlocker. This will stop the vast majority of that behavior and it becomes another perk for people in clans.

If we really want to be true to the ideal that working for a clan should be a job most commoners would feel lucky to have, though, it shouldn't take an RL year for the scales to tip in a clanned character's favor. For the majority of that year, while catching up to the curve, your clanned PC with his supposedly "lucky" job is surrounded by independents who are able to toss down plenty more coin on gear, apartments, spice, whores, bribes, and so on - and make the money back much faster. If the pay were about the same, but being independent was just a trade of less security for more freedom, I think we'd be in a better place. Not everyone wants to join a clan, but I wish economics wasn't a reason for people to stay away.

For rangers, grebbers, warriors, hunters, and outdoorsmen, I think the economic pendulum swings toward clanned characters as soon as they are allowed to leave the city. Usually, that's 6 RL weeks. For crafters, rogues, and spies, I think it takes even less time. If you don't expect your character to live more than 6 weeks, I'd say clans aren't really for your character. At RL 6 months, the clanned character should easily be ahead. At RL 1 year, it's more no contest than OJ Simpson beating his wife. (History lesson: OJ Simpson pled no contest for beating the wife he was latter accused of murdering)

It's so easy to make money in clans if you're willing to get past the recruit phase. Let me make a RL comparison. You and your friend graduate from high school. Your friend gets a job waiting tables and starts earning money. There's no homework and you see them out partying and buying drinks with money you don't have. You are jealous. You go to college, write term papers, and take examines. However, you put in the work and graduate. You land a job as a teacher. Now you make the same, but you've got perks such as the state pension, healthcare, and summers off. A few years later, you're promoted to principle. Now it's all in your favor. Decades later, you worked hard and made the right choices (like not banging that hot cheerleader that tried to flirt with you) and you're the superintendent. You chuckle as your old friend pours your wine at the fancy steakhouse. In Armageddon, college takes 4-6 weeks depending on the clan. The superintendent job is the guy selling diamond earrings, bricks of spice, or heavy crossbows strung with silt-giant hair. As you look outside your wagon and Way with the Sergeant of your guard, you drive by that independent still foraging for salt.

Solution: Start indie. Greb, move to salting, get good, buy some decent starter and survival gear. Join clan. When coins dwindle, sneak out every once in a while and salt up 1k coins responsibly. Problem solved.

There's nothing wrong with doing that from time to time. Sometimes you have to work a little overtime if you want to take the little lady out for a nice Valentine's Day dinner. Once you have the "ok" to leave the city from your clan and complete the work they want done, there are tons of ways to make extra coins.

[ale six]

For rangers, grebbers, warriors, hunters, and outdoorsmen, I think the economic pendulum swings toward clanned characters as soon as they are allowed to leave the city. Usually, that's 6 RL weeks. For crafters, rogues, and spies, I think it takes even less time. If you don't expect your character to live more than 6 weeks, I'd say clans aren't really for your character. At RL 6 months, the clanned character should easily be ahead. At RL 1 year, it's more no contest than OJ Simpson beating his wife. (History lesson: OJ Simpson pled no contest for beating the wife he was latter accused of murdering)

After six weeks the pendulum is only beginning to start shifting back toward the clanned character, it isn't on his side.

6-week old clan hunter, freshly promoted, now able to leave the gates on his own. Previously, he was a recruit, probably unpaid. After his first promotion his salary is now about 200-300 coins an RL week. He can't sell any of the raw materials he hunts; those go to the House. He gets free food/water, but he can probably forage that anyway. Let's be generous and call his compensation 500 coins an RL week, after six weeks of making none. If he wants to make extra money, he either needs to break his IC house rules that prevent him from doing things like selling stuff to vendors, or get permission from his boss.

6-week independent hunter, was able to leave the gates on day one. He probably had a rockier start, but six weeks in he's probably skilled up enough for smooth sailing. He has to pay for his own food/water, but again, he can probably just forage for that. By your own numbers earlier, 1000 coins in profit per week is doable for him easily with sufficient playtimes, and it probably is achievable before the 6 week mark. I'd suspect the amount of profit might be even higher than that. He also has no rules to worry about breaking and no one to ask permission from.

Once the clanned hunter can leave the gates, he still has only the same ways to make coin that the indie character has too. He also assumes the same risks - there's nothing that inherently keeps a clanned hunter safer outdoors than an indie. His lifespan is going to be determined mostly by the skill of his player and luck, neither of which have bearing in this discussion.

The way the clanned character may eventually get ahead is if he lives long enough and is loyal enough that he gets leader-level perks in his clan. Not everyone is willing or has the time to devote to achieve that sort of thing in game - and that's fine. For those that do, and who want to really max out the amount of wealth and influence their PC can have, I'd say a clan is the way to go. But for the players that don't, where's the economic incentive to joining a clan that the docs say should be there?

I will note before I bow out of this that the 1000 coins that Fujikoma suggests you make whenever you need supplementary income is equal to between three and five RL weeks of pay at the lowest rank of most clans (which itself takes 4 to 6 weeks to get to.) I can't see how we can look at those numbers and determine the economy seems balanced at its current state.

[Fujikoma]

On an indie, those coins go quickly, and again, you DO NOT want to be THAT guy out there salting every day. You use what you get to make things happen and you mostly sit around and BS with the rest of your free time.

As a house employee, heck, feck it, I'm going to grab some coins every now and then. As a Bynner I'm going to stay inside because I don't like getting flogged.

It's not broken. Any PC of mine who has been able to pull in that much has put a considerable amount of effort and time into it, and usually not every IG day, maybe once and IG week, because feck salting if I can avoid it, I'm lazy and I like interaction. It's not like it leaps up off the salt, that's about where my non-ranger PCs top out, and that's with a tent or some other form of shade. Which, heh, tents.

[Malken]

It's not broken. Any PC of mine who has been able to pull in that much has put a considerable amount of effort and time into it, and usually not every IG day, maybe once and IG week, because feck salting if I can avoid it, I'm lazy and I like interaction. It's not like it leaps up off the salt, that's about where my non-ranger PCs top out, and that's with a tent or some other form of shade. Which, heh, tents.

Oh, please.. It almost sounds like you're trying to convince us that salting is some highly mortal profession that requires shade, luck and very defined tools to both survive it and become wealthy from it. BS. Total BS. I'm a salting professional and I can tell you how easy it is, even with a non-ranger. So easy that I beg Staff to lower prices offered for said salt. I BEG. But if they don't lower it, then I take it that what I do is legit. But don't BS people into thinking that it's hard and you work hard for it. 3/4 of the salters I see, if not 90%, are running scripts while watching their monitor. Again. BS and shame to you, shame I say!

If we were in 1870, I would challenge you to a  duel.

[Fujikoma]

It's not broken. Any PC of mine who has been able to pull in that much has put a considerable amount of effort and time into it, and usually not every IG day, maybe once and IG week, because feck salting if I can avoid it, I'm lazy and I like interaction. It's not like it leaps up off the salt, that's about where my non-ranger PCs top out, and that's with a tent or some other form of shade. Which, heh, tents.

Oh, please.. It almost sounds like you're trying to convince us that salting is some highly mortal profession that requires shade, luck and very defined tools to both survive it and become wealthy from it. BS. Total BS. I'm a salting professional and I can tell you how easy it is, even with a non-ranger. So easy that I beg Staff to lower prices offered for said salt. I BEG. But if they don't lower it, then I take it that what I do is legit. But don't BS people into thinking that it's hard and you work hard for it. 3/4 of the salters I see, if not 90%, are running scripts while watching their monitor. Again. BS and shame to you, shame I say!

If we were in 1870, I would challenge you to a  duel.

LMAO, hell, if I'd been running scripts, wow, can't count the number of times I would have been dead. But yeah, go ahead and lower it, I'm just saying, I've seen some crazy stuff happen, lots of it. l n ls l e l w put salt sack forage salt l n l e l w l s think Feck, FECKING HOT! put salt pack forage salt l n l s l e l w
You feel a cool breeze.
The mullish figure in a tattered red windcloak arrives from the south and says "drop pack", clubs you anyway
A scrab arrives from the north (kills my newbies dead if I'm not prepared to respond immediately)
Don't forget those sand worms, wow.
I don't bother watching other salters, unless I end up grouping with them. The usually stop when I enter the room and react immediately, if that's a script, it's a pretty interesting one. Perhaps I don't salt in the same spots.

[Malken]

Like I said, I hope, hope, hope that Staff actually watches people, and if they don't see anything wrong with what they see and how much people can make from it all, then I call it legit and I assume that they want it that way, since these are all things we've bitched about forever.

I've learned long ago not to argue with people who says the exact opposite of what I constantly see in game, since I can't prove it and neither can you.

So again, we must judge that Staff thinks it's legit.

[number13]

I've had a few characters go out salt grebbing over the RL years. Never once have any of them been ganked by anything more serious than NPC insects.  Zero attempted raids by a PC.

I've had a grand total of two characters that would actively look for salt grebbers to raid.  Granted, I never used optimal tactics, but out of maybe a dozen attempts, I've gotten one successful raid, and that's only because the other PC cooperated.  Codely, that PC could have probably escaped successfully.  In return for a paltry few coins and a bag of salt I got off shaking down that one PC, I had an entire clan of PC hunters after my guy.  Which was fun, but if I was after 'sidian more so than fun, counter-productive.

Salt grebbing, and all sorts of other types of grebbing, is very low risk.  The payout is probably too high or maybe the danger level is too low.

[Fathi]

After his first promotion his salary is now about 200-300 coins an RL week.

Pay periods are every other week, I think.

Serve a clan for 10 years, get promoted to the 3rd or 4th rank, and get maybe 300 or 400 coins every other week.

Speaking from personal experience, sometimes this salary is actually even lower than that. In some clans it tops out at 300 regardless of the rank you attain.

[Riev]

Which pays out every RL week, so you get 150 coins every RL week.


That is seriously not enough coins to buy more than three drinks, over the course of a half-month.

[Harmless]

salary pay is pretty low overall. bonuses should be given liberally.

[James de Monet]

Zero attempted raids by a PC.

Pfft, I've had salters who got raided twice in the same day, by UNRELATED raiders.

Where are these magickal rainbow flats that you're salting on? Daddy wants some.

[Qzzrbl]

Zero attempted raids by a PC.

Pfft, I've had salters who got raided twice in the same day, by UNRELATED raiders.

Where are these magickal rainbow flats that you're salting on? Daddy wants some.

The ones a few steps east of Allanak.

I can say I've never been raided or faced any real danger while out salting as well.

[BleakOne]

I've been 'raided' by desert elves, defilers and even a dwarf once.

Only the dwarf attacked. The other two appreciated my begging and let me off easy.

[Chettaman]

i've gotta do several posts cus sometimes my comp goes down.  *edit to add - I totally consider gmh family members to be nobles

off topic: heh heh. I remember having a character protect salters from harm. He succeeded greatly. I remember he told me about how terrifying he was and just smirked, because I considered myself to be even more terrifying. - we won't go into details but those times people created raiders... I dealt with them. o_o

FIRE PEOPLE WITHOUT REMORSE

Anyway... on topic: I wanna start by saying, I've never played a leader. -_-;
Am I the only one who imagines the great houses to be like the great houses of morrowind? Hllalu, Redoran, Dres, Indoril etc. They all have people who belong to them and work for them. No doubt they get food and water from the house unless they want to get it someplace else. There are the employees and then there are the house members, who are or aren't responsible for house things.

First suggestion: Realize you work for the house / if it's broken. Fix it.
Understand you work for the house... and they no matter how lazy they are, are the house. A noble is in charge of seeing that things are done and that if perhaps, the ratio of materials to crafted items is askew, that maybe the noble is paying too many hunters. FIRE HUNTERS WITHOUT REMORSE given their usefulness. Maybe then they'd care about how much they did for the house or what people saw. Or just hire more crafters. Or fire your crafter for being lazy and get a better one. Whatever it takes to FIX THE PROBLEM YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT ALL THE TIME, instead of working around it.

[Cutthroat]

The crafters/hunters thing is one that mainly concerns GMHs. Although GMHs were talked about a lot, and the thread is supposed to concern all clans, but not much was brought up about noble houses besides "lack of 'grit'" (whatever grit is to people; if you want to talk about "harshness" and "murder/corruption/betrayal" then noble houses have plenty of that) and the argument about clan pay and perks that apply broadly to all of the clans. I would be interested in seeing what people think of noble houses beyond that, considering there are far more of those than any of the other types of clans, typically 2-3 open per city at one time.

[Chettaman]

I will say that the others are right. Only higher ups seem to know about really cool things. people should try to spy or something. Seriously. People have no clue the insanity hidden behind smiles.

PAY

I like the idea of being able to sell things to the house storage where later crafters can get it for free. Or maybe there could be a chest guarded by a dood who pays people accordingly. Anyway, I like the idea.
I remember in some clans I would get paid 75 coins a pay period. I quit using it so I don't know how often I was getting paid /but/. no matter what. It would be 75 coins. The amount never accrued. Fix this.
"You missed your last ten pay periods, lad."
The dood hands you 75 coins.
- and after pay accumulating I want to suggest pay a day.
10 coins a day x 9 day work week = 90 coins (given you get detal or ocandra or whatever off) That sounds alright don't you think? 90 coins isn't much. But you're getting it. You can pick it up at least once a day and that makes people happy. /getting/ paid. and 90 coins a week? That's an insane amount of money.
you could even make it less coins a day so it adds up to what it would be now or whatever.

[examples of pay so you see it and you don't just nod and say you like the idea]
.6 coins a day x 231 (zalanthan month) = 138 (rounded down)
or it could be less. Or more!
10 x 231 = 2310(3) = 6930 made in a year. But you won't see any of it? You blow it all on spice, booze, and whores. Or if you live in tuluk you just by fancy clothes!

[Nyr]

Your contention is your opinion, but it is based on some assumptions that simply are not true.  Essentially a middle manager...somewhat, I'll give you that.  Large monopoly--yes, that means they have to assist in maintaining that monopoly.  Facing no real threats--ha!  Asked to make life interesting--no, they generally aren't, that's a hopeful byproduct of them BEING interesting.  Create drama out of nothing?  They can, sure, but they don't have to.  Dial back their definition of interesting?  Yes, we're actively looking for sponsored leaders that essentially do nothing.

I think "facing no real threats" deserves a better answer than "ha!".

OK.

What enmities does Kadius actually have?

Oh, you are saying Kadius as a whole, not a specific Kadian.  I thought that was what you were suggesting.  Well, yes, it is possible that Kadius as a whole might get into conflict--as a whole--but it is less rare.  An individual Kadian, on the other hand, might get executed, targeted by a rogue group, assassinated, wronged, screwed over, etc.

Who's going to mess with you specifically because you're a Kadian?

Possibly someone that has some beef with Kadius as a whole?

Is there any substantial conflict going on that a rank and file Kadian would be aware of other than that rooted in personal squabbles?

You really like Kadius.  Or hate it.  I can't tell.  Again, the role is what you make it; if you're wanting conflict out of the box without any work, yes, you can find a better role for that.  I've always found it to be a better idea to play roles with some personality--you do get something out of a role when you put something into it.  If you're planning to play a Kadian to be simply "A kadian!" then you're missing the point.  Play a character.  Your character is either Kadian by blood or a hunter by choice.  Your character's background and mannerisms create roleplay.  If that's "manufacturing drama out of nothing" then yes...you should do that with every role.  If you're not, you're probably missing out.

I can point to a place where conflict is definitely diluted: showing up in Nak with Northern ink or in Tuluk with a southern accent will get you in a whole lot less trouble if you're wearing Kadian colours.

To some extent this is true.  Beyond that I fail to see what point you are trying to make.  Yes, when you have rank in an organization that crisscrosses the Known World, it seems it matters less where you were born and more who you were born to, even though it still matters to some extent.

Moving on: maintaining that monopoly against whom? Who's the threat here? The indies who mostly aren't even at the point of scraping a half-dozen people together in any one group, let alone the hallowed heights of having their own shop? Salarr and Kurac? A number of the posts in this thread have taken it almost as granted that Merchant Houses are so hand-in-glove that moving to a common pool of hunters or resources shared between them wouldn't strike anyone as unusual, and I've seen nothing in game to suggest anyone is threatening Kadius' core business. Maybe it's all going on in a back room and the Agents are playing high-stakes Kruth for each others' businesses and telling no-one of it. But if so, that's not a conflict which is doing heavy lifting in very many stories.

Indies may not be competition to the virtual house but they are competition to the PC activities of that House.  We actively encourage GMHs to squash indies that try to cut in on their turf.  Bribe, cheat, steal, kill, etc.

In addition to the things that affect PCs locally, there are at times larger things that the GMHs can get involved in.  These are fewer and farther between, but they are there.  Salarr sells to both sides of a war.  That can create conflict.  Kurac is caught in the middle of a war.  That can create conflict.  Kadius is traditionally Northern.  That can create conflict.  Kadius has to get resources at times.  That can create conflict depending on what those resources are/where they are located/what may be nearby.  (Granted that may be more PvE, but still, it can exist.)

You can be a perfectly good middle manager in a large monopoly and have your staff be bored to tears. It happens in big companies all round the world. Uninteresting can arise sweetly and naturally from your normal daily drudgery. Actual inactivity is not required.

How authoritatively can you speak on the subject in-game, though?  Are you just making assumptions about how boring it is to do so, or do you have any experience to draw on related to this subject?

Playing as an indie doesn't give a player any super powers.  An indie has less resources and thus less to draw on for actual roleplay inspiration.  Being able to succeed without those resources is admirable.  Having those resources doesn't make someone automatically a dullard with no ability to roleplay.

Indies have less resources, but connecting that to less roleplay inspiration is fallacious. A wealth of resources can even be bad for roleplay inspiration, because it means you have fewer needs. The important factors are conflicts and tensions. A rich retired couple in an American suburb are resource-rich, but likely conflict-poor. Somali pirates are resource-poor, but conflict-rich. I know which of these I'd be more entertained to see a camera following for a day.[/quote]

I didn't connect that to less roleplay inspiration...you did.  You even said that agian, here.  Having too many resources = bad for roleplay inspiration.  If your real beef is "omg Kadius doesn't have any worldwide conflict specific to the house at this given moment in time" (which it really seems to be, you keep drawing Kadius in to the discussion) then create another thread for that.  The focus on GMHs is not the point of this thread.

Or, to put it another way, there's a ton more tension and drama in a start-up than in a huge behemoth of a company. I've seen both. Personally, I'm addicted to the startup rollercoaster.

You've made that clear, but not everyone has the same interests in play as you do.

I'm not claiming at all that the players in resource-rich but conflict-poor scenarios are dullards with no ability to roleplay. I'm saying the exact opposite: they deserve more applause if they can make an interesting story, because they were starting with a handicap.

Ok, good.

Play what you want to play, be the change you want to see, whatever.  Noble houses are going to be less gritty than the rest.  GMH roles at a certain level aren't that gritty.  The Byn, criminal gangs, PC-created clans are all going to be more gritty.  Tribes at a certain level are going to be more gritty.  There's something for everyone.

There's one active criminal gang clan I can think of. There's one Byn. There are three noble Houses in Allanak open, according to the website: Borsail, Oash and Fale. In Tuluk, Dasari, Tenneshi, Winrothol and Negean are listed as open.[/quote]

Actually Negean is not open.  That's a bug on the site.  There's even a note saying it's not open.

If you're interested in gritty city RP, there's a lot less support for you than there is for people who like to flounce around in nice clothes. It may be something for everyone, but it's a lot more for some than others. I'm not convinced it follows popular preference. Indeed, the concern that led to this thread being started - there are too many indies! - suggests that maybe, just maybe, some of those players are voting with their feet for grittier options, even if they have to give up some support to do it.

There's not really a major concern that there's too many indies.  This is normal.  We go through cycles of everything.  OMG too many mages, omg too many clans, omg too many indies, omg Tuluk sucks, omg Allanak sucks, omg city elves suck, etc.  It happens.

I suppose if you have a problem with this and you are playing in such a clan (and this is an actual problem in the clan), you should bring it up with your clan staff or clan leadership on their board.  If you're an indie and are just playing devil's advocate, then you have no idea what's going on with this presently, anyway.

The board's been going back and forth on this for pages now. This isn't a personal complaint - the list I made wasn't filled with personal complaints, but a compilation of reasons people had given for not wanting to be in clans. Clearly a lot of people are of the opinion that clan leaders can have clan items loaded up for them to sell without needing to involve their crafters, and a number have felt the crafters, and by extension the hunters, are thus rendered somewhat unnecessary. If this is incorrect, then straightening it out would probably make a lot of people happy.

It's been going back and forth on this for pages now because that's how GDB discussions go.  There's really very little substantive stuff here.  I even pointed out what things we've noticed and how we're working to trial some changes where it makes sense.  Again, this is normal, people complain about stuff, etc.  If you don't actually have a problem with this directly, then you're just making the dialogue go on with no real conclusion.

When "nobody" and "slightly higher nobody" encompass much of the playerbase, and getting to be a slightly higher nobody without swearing allegiance to some clan or another takes a great deal of effort, it's still a jump that matters.

It's a system that is meant to be fluid, a chart that is meant to guide.  It's not set in stone.  Quibbling over this is silly.  It is an insignificant jump, depending on other variables.  A very long-lived independent commoner with ties to important people but no official affiliation is going to have more pull than the average just-off-the-boat shitty GMH crafter.  No one is going to run up and down the North Road waving the caste chart and saying their caste ranking has vastly improved.

Is that at all inconsistent with what I said? Because it seems to me you're agreeing that an independent has a lot to do to exceed the status of the "average" just-off-the-boat GMH crafter. If you're measuring status in terms of the scale from nobility to slave, sure, it's not a big step. If you're measuring status in terms of what the average PC gains over the course of their life, then, yeah, it is a pretty large bump.

If your goal is to play an independent then you should have to work hard at it.  Suck it, indies.  ICly, I mean.  OOCly you have support from independent staff.

[long live miley cyrus]

Although GMHs were talked about a lot, and the thread is supposed to concern all clans, but not much was brought up about noble houses besides "lack of 'grit'" (whatever grit is to people; if you want to talk about "harshness" and "murder/corruption/betrayal" then noble houses have plenty of that) and the argument about clan pay and perks that apply broadly to all of the clans. I would be interested in seeing what people think of noble houses beyond that, considering there are far more of those than any of the other types of clans, typically 2-3 open per city at one time.

I don't have as much interest in playing social climbing and the sort of backstabbing politics that goes on in noble houses; my preferred grit is being still within sight and sound of the suffering of most of the world, not being much better off than they are, and knowing that every time I screw up gets me closer and closer to where they are, if not simply killed off by the clan. For me, noble houses have the greatest distance from that, and its appealing, but not as appealing as other kinds of conflict for me. This is a personal thing though, I know some people love backstabbing politics.

I was thinking about it for a while and I remember distinctly being in a clan with maybe four other people including the supervisor, and after me I don't think we got another employee for a RL month, and I enjoyed my time there anyway, very much. I sometimes feel nostalgic for it and want to give the clan another go. Stored after two RL months out of boredom. I think what did it for me was the restrictiveness, and the restrictiveness alone. I was a crafter in a clan that was about as restrictive as the byn, unless the superiors decided to give us the rest of the week off, which did happen occasionally, but I think it only started when they realized I had some interesting stuff to do after hours that took long amounts of time. A lot of the time, you just idled in the crafting part of the compound for forty minutes, waiting for your twenty. As an impatient person, this wasn't healthy for my long-term, and I know we lost at least one of the other four people due to it.

[Chettaman]

TO PEOPLE WHO ROLEPLAY AND STRIVE FOR NOTHING
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzhzkKccBi8

You are the fuel for the fire that you so desire.
I frequently play characters with no reason in life - but for some reason. I'm able to make a story out of it. I get into insanity. Doing simple things is what I like to do. Being simple is much more difficult in a game world that refuses to let you be so. So I strive to be simple! I will use the code. I will use my IMAGINATION. I light fires not with the ''light'' command. I use flint... I use wood on wood friction. I'll use my magick. I'll use a glass to magnify it.
I don't skin using the ''skin'' command. I use a knife to bleed my kills. I take off my gloves because I can't get a good grip on all these bloody innards. I don't just cut meat from the body. I work muscle away from the back of my kill. I rip off limbs, tear tendons, get something I didn't want in my eye dammit. I've got to wipe off my hand to get it out and then get bloody again...
I'm magick. I'm a rukkian!! I'm stronger than you. Faster than you. I control the very sand you stand on. I don't use the ''cast'' command to create a chair of sand. Maybe I can't. I'll emote it. Because I can... I control sand and stone and if I want to sit, darn it!! ... I will.

If... I am a hunter in a clan that expects me to hunt. I won't do what everyone else does. I'm not going to jump on my mount. Ride out and kill everything. I'm going to go out on foot. I have food and water. There's no rush. I'm going to pick an animal that I see. I'm going to hunt it. Sneak up on it. It's smelled me in the breeze. I've got to track it. I see it again. It doesn't see me. I won't make the same mistake twice. I'm going to pull my arrow across the bowstring and send it flying into the beast's heart! - or I'm going to tackle it! Stab it until it stops!

If... I am a crafter of a clan that expects me to craft. I won't do what everyone else does. I'm not going to go and sit in a bar waiting for people to want to buy things. I'm going to the streets, baby. Where I come from. To promote the house that I work for. Selling any goods from them I can. Or maybe I'll sell from the store that's already up. (change ldesc stands her selling salarri goods) and just let people know I'm not an npc who doesn't actually sell anything. Because I'm a crafter - I don't have to only craft. I can buy, sell and trade.
I'm actually terrible at roles like this but still.

There have been posts like this before... I want you all to understand that if you're not happy doing mundane things then maybe you should add some detail.
[note: I totally get lazy all the time and end up just using those commands, but my point stands. Doing anything can be fun if you do them in a way you can appreciate.]

[Nyr]

To dial things back a notch here...

My initial involvement kicked in when people started suggesting independents should get weakened in various ways in order to push people toward clans. This struck me as a bad idea. I feel indies have many advantages roleplay-wise. I feel some clans have enough interesting stuff to offer to offset some of these advantages. I've joined quite a few clans in my time with Arm, and a number of them I'd be enthusiastic about joining again.

Yeah but keep in mind, while we on staff definitely read feedback on the GDB, we rarely if ever have made sweeping changes based on player consensus.  The overall role of the indie is safe enough.

I also feel that our current clan mix doesn't provide very much choice in terms of getting into the grittier side of the game, and that conflict between clans is pretty muted. We're a very long way from the Borgias. We're a long way from the youths of the Montagues and Capulets duelling in the streets after dark. We're a long way even from the average tumult of British politics before Cromwell redefined the country's relationship to the Crown. The big players are fairly happy with the way things are, and so they don't change much. When they do change, very few PCs are likely to have much of a hand in it. That's fine and all, but it's not precisely an inspiring place to focus as a story setting.

Different clans offer different stuff to different players.  If you want to play a gritty anything you absolutely can, but that's going to be on you.  More can be done as each clan gets a facelift or gets revamped but that requires additional work on staff's part; patience is required.

Virtually, there must be any number of smaller clans which aren't big and fat and rich and safe, which are encountering threats they need to be genuinely scared of. I think they're hogging a lot of the good stories.

PCs can create clans and do this if they want that.  There won't be any guarantee of coded support but that is part of the difficulty (and allure) of such a thing.

Still, if we're going to stick with the clans we've got, I do think we could do better with regard to creating enough tension between them to actually filter down to the rank and file, who're currently knocking back ales together because someone of the same social class currently defaults to ally until they prove otherwise.

I'm going to skip to your next post.

You might be surprised.

Granted, when you only have 3-6 nobles in a given city, the amount of scheming and backstabbing that can occur is somewhat limited, but if you think it isn't happening, you're wrong.

And granted, you don't have Montagues and Capulets breaking to new mutiny in the streets, but you don't have a lot of "gritty" characters griping about getting shivved the night before over a wayward comment either. That's an issue with the finality of crim code, not a lack of conflict.

With regard to the Borgias: scheming and backstabbing exists, sure. But literally killing a noble of another House for your own profit and having your House back you up? Let alone rising to the top on a tide of murders? I've some scepticism there. Actions likely to put Houses in conflict usually, in my past experience, led to the nobles being quietly disowned. Admittedly I did spend nearly seven years away from the game before my return, and maybe things have changed on that front. On the other hand, I returned to a suspiciously identical-looking set of rich clans. It's hard not to believe in a deep underlying stability when everything looks so close to the same over the course of an in-game half-century.

I'm going to highlight something here.

Admittedly I did spend nearly seven years away from the game before my return, and maybe things have changed on that front.

Your past experience is older than the request tool for character reports, metaclan organization for staff, 3 HRPTs, and a plethora of murdered (and executed) templars, nobles, and lackeys.  It is safe to say that your skepticism bleeds through your posts and is annoying to players and staff of players that are actively involved in said backstabbing between nobility. 

I'm more bothered by the economic monopolists than the nobles though. Historically there was at least some level of tension and enmity between a few of the Noble Houses, enough to keep me from complaining. Kadius and Salarr have seemed kind of disappointing to me since things quieted down after the Rebellion. Neutrality is good for business, but bad for stories.

The "Rebellion" was over 10 years ago.  We JUST had an HRPT last summer, the effects are still ongoing, and we have plans to use those effects to transform things where possible.  And all of that takes time.  Patience, grasshopper.