How to make clans more appealing?

[Synthesis]

Just an aside to defend my HONOUR.

I don't play leaders because a) my schedule is sometimes wonky and b) I have to be too responsible in real life to bother with being responsible in the game.  I like to think I play -great- minions, though...low maintenance, get shit done, train the noobs, etc.

[Quirk]

There are about 4 clans that have schedules and I think most of them make sense; they all should have caveats in them for when no one is around inside the clan to interact with, though.

This sounds fine - the general perception on schedules is outdated then, I take it.

Every clan you could join is one of the most prestigious in the Known.  The only exceptions are the ones at the very bottom, socially, and even they are well known.

This is something I see as being a problem. When we have about a dozen clans ranking among the most prestigious in the Known all hiring PCs like mad, it tilts the game toward affluent roleplay, isolates elves and half-breeds, and makes harshness almost into an opt-in affair. I feel that if these clans are supposed to be prestigious, they should be more discerning about who they hire.

What a clan does is largely a measure of what a clan's leadership is pushing; most clans have a certain amount of self-starter expectation for leaders and those in there.

I don't think this tells the whole story. Some clans are not in a place where they can enter conflicts accessible to the whole clan and improve their position by doing so. There isn't enough to be gained from open conflict. I think if we asked a brand new player who'd spent a month in one of the cities which clans were in conflict with each other, the answer would be a very short one, and they might not be able to name any.

My contention is that if a leader is dropped into what's essentially a middle manager role in a large monopoly facing no real threats and asked to make life interesting for those under their command, they've pretty much got to create drama out of almost nothing, or dial back their definition of interesting. Playing as an indie, I've been able to hire and send a number of PCs into dangerous or intrigue-rich situations with a mission which mattered to my PC, grown from to-the-death conflict originated between an ally and another party. I've hence been lucky enough to have conflict forced upon me by my affiliations; knowing that out there a particular enemy exists who would quite possibly go as far as killing you because you're associated with a particular group can give you a lot of RP juice to work with and spread around. If, however, your affiliation is more likely to dampen conflict than heighten it, keeping things exciting is likely to be harder.

If you want grit, there are clans for that.  If you want less grit, there are clans for that.

And yet, in our supposedly harsh and gritty world, there are vastly more city clans in the latter bin than the former.

8 ). Meaningless jobs.
    GMH hunters, crafters; see earlier in the thread for a full discussion.

Counter point:  roles are largely what you make them.

If your output is left rotting in a storeroom, there is genuine IC reason for dissatisfaction: why am I hunting all these animals when nobody wants or needs what I'm bringing back? If the items are junked and it's pretended VNPCs got them, the IC reason might be sorted out, but it's scarcely more satisfying for the player. What reason does the player have to try and make a role out of that when there are many more perfectly good roles in which the core activities actually play some useful purpose?

There's plenty of other options for privacy, however.  I'm not sure this necessarily needs to be filled by the clan regardless of what the clan is.  To speak to an earlier point, if you truly want grit, you don't need privacy.

I don't want the most prestigious clans in the Known to be too poor to find private rooms for their staff. That's not grit, that's merely absurdity. The lack of grit comes about when these supposedly prestigious roles are commonplace and easily had by any human who asks.

There's a dissonance here. These prestigious clans are meant to be the best, joined by the elite, but many of them gorge themselves on PCs, particularly inexperienced ones. They're meant to offer a passport to an affluent life, but the affluence is of a distinctly limited nature. Their benefits therefore appeal most when a PC is new. Keeping that affluence modest maintains the current situation where the way the clans supposedly are doesn't match the way they actually are. Increasing that affluence without making hiring more discriminating makes the world more full of coin, less gritty. Making hiring more discriminating means fewer or emptier "rich" clans.

Yes, really. Going from indie to entry-level GMH employee is a full jump in the Tuluki caste system. Making enough contacts in game as an indie to effectively overcome this and matter more to the people that matter takes a long time. In that time, the GMH employee can jump another rank without any real need for imagination on their part simply by turning up in accord with the schedule on a fairly regular basis.

It's a jump from "nobody" to "slightly higher nobody."  Let's not be too hasty here!

When "nobody" and "slightly higher nobody" encompass much of the playerbase, and getting to be a slightly higher nobody without swearing allegiance to some clan or another takes a great deal of effort, it's still a jump that matters.

[ale six]

Quirk and I agree on something!

There's a dissonance here. These prestigious clans are meant to be the best, joined by the elite, but many of them gorge themselves on PCs, particularly inexperienced ones. They're meant to offer a passport to an affluent life, but the affluence is of a distinctly limited nature. Their benefits therefore appeal most when a PC is new. Keeping that affluence modest maintains the current situation where the way the clans supposedly are doesn't match the way they actually are. Increasing that affluence without making hiring more discriminating makes the world more full of coin, less gritty. Making hiring more discriminating means fewer or emptier "rich" clans.

The only thing I would add is that grit vs. non-grit should be a separate issue altogether. Right now, you have the strange situation where clans are supposedly, ICly the ticket to the easy, rich life, and jobs that everyone should want. OOCly, however, they don't seem to live up to that due to the reasons we've already been over - independents are able to rake in plenty more sid due to more freedom and lack of restrictions. If we want more grit, maybe the ease indies can make money should be addressed. On the other hand, if we want PCs in clans to actually feel like they are lucky to have their job and be more/just as affluent than their indie friends, we may want to give them more salary and additional perks. Or, we live with the dissonance, but that means the reality of the game world isn't matching our ideal, and I think that's a shame.

[James de Monet]

James de Monet's post is great, and captures some good reasons to not be in clans;

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to give people reasons not to be in clans. I was stating reasons that I perceive motivate people not to join clans.  I am actually a big clan proponent, and probably play 60/40 clanned to indie characters (and that number probably goes up to 80/20 if you consider characters that were affiliated with a clan, just not codedly part of it).  Some of these have already been mentioned, but:

For the sake of balance, here are some reasons that I see that people do join clans (and if you subscribe to strength building rather than weakness patching business theory, perhaps you could get some mileage out of increasing these benefits rather than combating the detriments, though Nyr's statements about coming trials hint at some that methodology, too).

1) People want to be part of something. They want to belong. Clans that develop strong fraternal bonds will draw these players in (as do things like family role calls). These bonds have to be built by every generation of clannies, though. They can't be inherited. They are built by such activities as clan socializing, simply deciding that your clannies are your PC's friends, rather than trying to make friends with your clannies, and trends of favoritism from powerful PC leaders.  These can also be achieved in clans with very strict schedules and rules - just make sure that when you go off-duty, go off-duty hard. It's a work hard, play hard mentality.  (Also, as a caveat here, note that you can develop these bonds and still have intra-clan conflict. Brothers and sister fight. This the 'I'll talk shit about my clannies all day, but if you aren't wearing our colors, you better not say word one' mentality.)

2) Big plots. I don't think anyone is denying it; when you are part of a clan, you have a much better chance at getting in on the big stuff. It doesn't come around as often, but when it does...

3) Official capacity. You just don't get as much punch throwing your weight around saying "I'm Amos the Hunter, I killed a carru," then you do staring at someone through a savage House tattoo and saying, "I'm Red Malik, of the Tor Scorpions. Who the hell are you?"

4) Access to clan resources. Lots of times houses have free gear, free mounts, and lots of other free stuff for those who ask, besides having exclusive access to the best (or entirely unique) types of tools and equipment.

5) Built-in influence. In almost every clan, you're going to have a leader who can lend you their status to get you out of a tight spot (or into a hard to reach place). Most will be willing to help you out this way if your PC isn't a liability.

[Nyr]

Every clan you could join is one of the most prestigious in the Known.  The only exceptions are the ones at the very bottom, socially, and even they are well known.

This is something I see as being a problem. When we have about a dozen clans ranking among the most prestigious in the Known all hiring PCs like mad, it tilts the game toward affluent roleplay, isolates elves and half-breeds, and makes harshness almost into an opt-in affair. I feel that if these clans are supposed to be prestigious, they should be more discerning about who they hire.

Perhaps so, but there is a time and a place for it.  Oftentimes there is competition in the same area for the same resource (players) and that reverses the behavior you are expecting here.  If you don't snap up a good PC then another clan will snap it up.  If all of the PCs suck there is still a desire to at least have some employees/partisans/lackeys that exist beneath a leader.  Perhaps one example where discernment works is in the Bardic Circles.  When we have auditions we don't necessarily accept everyone, particularly when we're close to a cap on PCs in the group.

If auditions work well for the bardic circles, something similar could possibly work for employer PCs in other clans.  Instead of saying you're looking for this or that, perhaps hold an event where you have a public interview of people.  Pick the best two.  Rinse and repeat when you need more.  Public rejection of any comers makes it seem as though there is something being awarded.  If you hurt someone's IC feelings, they will get over it.

What a clan does is largely a measure of what a clan's leadership is pushing; most clans have a certain amount of self-starter expectation for leaders and those in there.

I don't think this tells the whole story. Some clans are not in a place where they can enter conflicts accessible to the whole clan and improve their position by doing so. There isn't enough to be gained from open conflict.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

My contention is that if a leader is dropped into what's essentially a middle manager role in a large monopoly facing no real threats and asked to make life interesting for those under their command, they've pretty much got to create drama out of almost nothing, or dial back their definition of interesting.

Your contention is your opinion, but it is based on some assumptions that simply are not true.  Essentially a middle manager...somewhat, I'll give you that.  Large monopoly--yes, that means they have to assist in maintaining that monopoly.  Facing no real threats--ha!  Asked to make life interesting--no, they generally aren't, that's a hopeful byproduct of them BEING interesting.  Create drama out of nothing?  They can, sure, but they don't have to.  Dial back their definition of interesting?  Yes, we're actively looking for sponsored leaders that essentially do nothing.

Playing as an indie, I've been able to hire and send a number of PCs into dangerous or intrigue-rich situations with a mission which mattered to my PC, grown from to-the-death conflict originated between an ally and another party. I've hence been lucky enough to have conflict forced upon me by my affiliations; knowing that out there a particular enemy exists who would quite possibly go as far as killing you because you're associated with a particular group can give you a lot of RP juice to work with and spread around. If, however, your affiliation is more likely to dampen conflict than heighten it, keeping things exciting is likely to be harder.

Playing as an indie doesn't give a player any super powers.  An indie has less resources and thus less to draw on for actual roleplay inspiration.  Being able to succeed without those resources is admirable.  Having those resources doesn't make someone automatically a dullard with no ability to roleplay.

If you want grit, there are clans for that.  If you want less grit, there are clans for that.

And yet, in our supposedly harsh and gritty world, there are vastly more city clans in the latter bin than the former.

Play what you want to play, be the change you want to see, whatever.  Noble houses are going to be less gritty than the rest.  GMH roles at a certain level aren't that gritty.  The Byn, criminal gangs, PC-created clans are all going to be more gritty.  Tribes at a certain level are going to be more gritty.  There's something for everyone.

8 ). Meaningless jobs.
    GMH hunters, crafters; see earlier in the thread for a full discussion.

Counter point:  roles are largely what you make them.

If your output is left rotting in a storeroom, there is genuine IC reason for dissatisfaction: why am I hunting all these animals when nobody wants or needs what I'm bringing back? If the items are junked and it's pretended VNPCs got them, the IC reason might be sorted out, but it's scarcely more satisfying for the player. What reason does the player have to try and make a role out of that when there are many more perfectly good roles in which the core activities actually play some useful purpose?

I suppose if you have a problem with this and you are playing in such a clan (and this is an actual problem in the clan), you should bring it up with your clan staff or clan leadership on their board.  If you're an indie and are just playing devil's advocate, then you have no idea what's going on with this presently, anyway.

There's plenty of other options for privacy, however.  I'm not sure this necessarily needs to be filled by the clan regardless of what the clan is.  To speak to an earlier point, if you truly want grit, you don't need privacy.

I don't want the most prestigious clans in the Known to be too poor to find private rooms for their staff. That's not grit, that's merely absurdity.

Oh, so you're saying that not having that for PCs means that it doesn't exist for vNPCs or NPCs.  Well, you know the latter isn't true.  It's just the former that is true.  That's a PC thing, and it's pretty simple.  We want to concentrate the playerbase onto conflict, not divide them into even more areas that they might not run into each other.

The lack of grit comes about when these supposedly prestigious roles are commonplace and easily had by any human who asks.

Covered this above in two areas.

There's a dissonance here. These prestigious clans are meant to be the best, joined by the elite, but many of them gorge themselves on PCs, particularly inexperienced ones. They're meant to offer a passport to an affluent life, but the affluence is of a distinctly limited nature. Their benefits therefore appeal most when a PC is new. Keeping that affluence modest maintains the current situation where the way the clans supposedly are doesn't match the way they actually are. Increasing that affluence without making hiring more discriminating makes the world more full of coin, less gritty. Making hiring more discriminating means fewer or emptier "rich" clans.

See above.

Yes, really. Going from indie to entry-level GMH employee is a full jump in the Tuluki caste system. Making enough contacts in game as an indie to effectively overcome this and matter more to the people that matter takes a long time. In that time, the GMH employee can jump another rank without any real need for imagination on their part simply by turning up in accord with the schedule on a fairly regular basis.

It's a jump from "nobody" to "slightly higher nobody."  Let's not be too hasty here!

When "nobody" and "slightly higher nobody" encompass much of the playerbase, and getting to be a slightly higher nobody without swearing allegiance to some clan or another takes a great deal of effort, it's still a jump that matters.

It's a system that is meant to be fluid, a chart that is meant to guide.  It's not set in stone.  Quibbling over this is silly.  It is an insignificant jump, depending on other variables.  A very long-lived independent commoner with ties to important people but no official affiliation is going to have more pull than the average just-off-the-boat shitty GMH crafter.  No one is going to run up and down the North Road waving the caste chart and saying their caste ranking has vastly improved.

[Narf]

Every clan you could join is one of the most prestigious in the Known.  The only exceptions are the ones at the very bottom, socially, and even they are well known.

This is something I see as being a problem. When we have about a dozen clans ranking among the most prestigious in the Known all hiring PCs like mad, it tilts the game toward affluent roleplay, isolates elves and half-breeds, and makes harshness almost into an opt-in affair. I feel that if these clans are supposed to be prestigious, they should be more discerning about who they hire.

I think the prestige of the available clans is causing a lot more problems than people realize. I think we could see a lot more interesting interaction amongst clans if, say over the course of the next 2 RL years, about half to 2/3's of the prestigious clans were closed and replaced with far less prestigious clans. We're talking lower rung than the Byn. Clans that are unimportant enough where it would be reasonable to have players as the topmost officials without risking massive world changes.

Dungscraper's guild, beggar's guild, elf gang #4, human gang #3, The employees of the Gaj

These sorts of clans could be populated at all ranks with PCs without threatening world power balance, yet the ability to be important within these microcosms would likely attract a lot of people. What's more, the few remaining prestigious clans would see a huge boost because PCs that are members would /actually/ be prestigious compared to the PC community at large (you know, the people they role play with).

So I'd propose an experiment:

Write up a low prestige clan and introduce it. Make sure it has some goals, some enmities (a reason for making enemies later on), and a reason for its existence, as well as a few perks over people that do the same sort of thing by as independents (not much, mind you, just a few little ones to justify its existence).

No need to put overly much time into the effort up front, just sit back and see what happens. My prediction is it'll open up a gold mine of rp opportunities. And if it doesn't? Close the clan again.

[LauraMars]

Dial back their definition of interesting?  Yes, we're actively looking for sponsored leaders that essentially do nothing.

uh...is this....is this...

isthissarcastic?

[Delusion]

I don't really have the energy right now to pretty much literally rewrite every point that Quirk and James de Monet posted up, but, going by reasonably recent GMH-related experience of mine, every point they make is right on the mark.

[Dalmeth]

If you'd like to help, you can start by idea'ing the NPC(s) in question so that we can review it.

Please, just stop.

There have been a large number of changes over the years, and many of them have worked to suppress player activities. I honestly don't care that a merchant pays out 1000 coins for anything, but you should keep in mind that by reducing the payout, you're only forcing the player to either A) gather more diamonds or B) find another merchant.

The problem here being that A) the merchant likely does not have coin for two diamonds, however much cheaper you make it, and B) there is likely no secondary merchant.

Since there are no alternatives, all you're doing is making the effort less worthwhile.

So in the end, it's just the merchant system itself that's broken.  You want a degree of randomness so a player can't come clean it out in one, fell swoop, but the way the current static NPC merchants are randomly able to pay out also makes it unreliable for your average player to come and sell something.  It's far from ideal.

If you wanted an improvement, I would suggest taking a place like the Luir's Market Yard or the Tribal Market in Tuluk, and populate it with random merchants every IC month or half-month.  Call it the caravan seasons or somesuch.  And by random merchants, I mean discrete types selected from a list.  Types as in weapons, armor, and whatever.  And geez, make the merchants buy what materials they need.  They're traveling merchants, so it makes sense.

In this way, busybody PCs can still map out a newly generated market, do their chores, and then head go back to RPing or something.  It's pretty nice.

[Delirium]

I think it's a basic flaw in the coded shop economy that boils down to only being able to sell 5 of each object.

Theoretically a PC should be able to walk into a market place and sell everything they have on them that is of any value... but those things should be sold for much less.  Right now, if you lower the price on things too much, you're completely screwing over the lower-playtime PCs who don't beat the 'post crash market rush'.

That way when you go out on a hunting trip you can come back, unload all your stuff, and take your pocketful of 85 sid to the bar for a drink.

Instead of unloading half of your stuff, depositing 150 in the bank, and taking a pocketful of 85 sid to the bar for a drink. (while lugging a big heavy bag of stones and hides)

p.s. booze should cost way, way less.

p.p.s. Those numbers are completely made up and random, please don't fixate on them.

[Nyr]

If you'd like to help, you can start by idea'ing the NPC(s) in question so that we can review it.

Please, just stop.

There have been a large number of changes over the years, and many of them have worked to suppress player activities. I honestly don't care that a merchant pays out 1000 coins for anything, but you should keep in mind that by reducing the payout, you're only forcing the player to either A) gather more diamonds or B) find another merchant.

The problem here being that A) the merchant likely does not have coin for two diamonds, however much cheaper you make it, and B) there is likely no secondary merchant.

Um...the problem here is actually A) this particular bugged NPC is buying things above value even though the code is supposed to be telling it to buy low and sell high, and B) that's pretty much it.  The only goal in this one case was to look at why this didn't make sense.  We found out that yes, it did not make sense.  And now we're trying to figure out why this buggy NPC is doing this.  We're not (presently) looking at making sweeping changes.  We're not (presently) recoding the whole economy.  We're not (presently) throwing in a bunch of shops with a new shop system.  We're just figuring out why this one shopkeeper is screwy.  Why?  Because people brought it up in a thread about clans...for whatever reason.

Holy cow.  Chill out, bro, I'm not moving your cheese. 

[Zoan]

a) If you're in a clan you have all the food, board and drink you'll ever need.
b) Clans are run by wealthy, organized people, PC or otherwise. You'll get awesome things as reward, not purchase.
c) Money is unimportant and worthless to the clannie. You only need a few glassbux to buy booze every so often, which your pay will cover easily.

[BleakOne]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but if clanned numbers are high right now, maybe that's a sign that clans are not, in fact, places of straightjacketed order, poor RP and no grit?

Having played in military clans and also one Merchant House for extended periods of time and a second for a short time, I'm very dubious about people saying Hunters are so pointless and boring. Keep in mind even low-ranked clan members can have interesting goals and ideas that I've found are usually well received by staff and clan leaders.

[Malken]

a) If you're in a clan you have all the food, board and drink you'll ever need.
b) Clans are run by wealthy, organized people, PC or otherwise. You'll get awesome things as reward, not purchase.
c) Money is unimportant and worthless to the clannie. You only need a few glassbux to buy booze every so often, which your pay will cover easily.

a) Yeah, if your PC is a pussy who drinks nothing but water for the rest of his life and wishes to remain single as well. Bringing your girlfriend over to sit on your cot in the middle of a crowded barracks is worse than bringing her to your parents' one room apartment. Oh wait, she probably can't even get into the barracks. I guess that's what the curtained booths are for. From past experience, whole families have been made in there anyway.
b) Good in theory, not so much in practice (which is probably part of why this thread exists
c) Tell that to the rest of your recruit clannies who are all decked out in awesome armors and diamond-hilted badass swords, all purchased with their own monies.

[Delirium]

More 'temporary' housing would be great. Inn rooms, instead of apartments. Rentable in increments of IC weeks, for up to 3 IC weeks at a time. If your rent runs out while you're quit out, you log in at the tavern's main room/dormitory, having been casually kicked out of the room by the inn's bouncers to make way for the next customer.

Then you crazy mudsex fiends and plotting schemers can have a place to take your ill-gotten booty without having to rent an apartment.

Most folks seem to keep all their valuables in the clan barracks anyway. The only real reason for a clannie to have an apartment seems to be 'starting a family'.

[Malken]

Going to check you under "no" for that idea of creating and raising a family from the comfort of our curtained booth, then, Delly Yes. I just called you Delly.

[Nyr]

rent backroom me talia

The bouncer says, in sirihish:  "You don't haev enough money to rent this for the night.  You will need 98 more 'sid."

say "only need it for 5 min"

[williamson]

Right now, you have the strange situation where clans are supposedly, ICly the ticket to the easy, rich life, and jobs that everyone should want. OOCly, however, they don't seem to live up to that due to the reasons we've already been over - independents are able to rake in plenty more sid due to more freedom and lack of restrictions. If we want more grit, maybe the ease indies can make money should be addressed.

People always say this, but I strongly disagree. I suppose that it depends on the time frame that you examine. If the average character only survives 3 RL weeks, I suppose it might be true for players whose characters are constantly dying. The average clan member recruit usually has to spend an IC year inside the city, only leaving with a superior. Meanwhile, the indy is able to go out and hunt and forage. He gets to keep all the profits he makes. If successful, the indy might make ~1000 coins a week. However, the indy has to buy his gear, his mount, and rent his apartment. During the same time period, the indy has likely had a couple close brushes with death (if playing outside the city) or perhaps arrest/jail (if playing inside the city). Meanwhile, the clanned character is getting training, free water/food, free place to keep his things, and usually some free gear.

After the IC year, the clanned character can now leave the city and "do things." She may get an assignment like we need duskhorn hides from his Kadian boss. She has to go out and fetch the duskhorn hides for free. However, along the way, she can sell the horns, the meat, and the herbs she finds along the way. If she can't sell everything, she gets to store it free back in her nearly impossible to rob footlocker. In addition, she gets small amount of free coins from the paymaster. The indy's apartment has likely been robbed at least once. Things begin to swing back toward the clanned character's favor.

Now extrapolate this over 6 RL months, most of the indy's she started with are all dead. The surving indies have a nice apartment, lots of expensive gear which cost them a lot, and their Nenyuk savings. The clanned character has likely been promoted. Now she has her own crew, together they can obtain more difficult and rare materials. There is backing of the clan to keep you out of trouble. Your pay has increased to something reasonable and you should have developed some influential allies or clients.

At the RL year, it's not even close. You're likely the leader in the clan with underlings. Now, you get a piece from everyone elses pie. You likely have an office and a #2 under you. You get serious pay from the paymaster, all the perks, and political influence. When I compare my wealthiest clanned character (a Kadian) and my wealthiest independent (a ranger), it's not even close. The Kadian ended up with a wagon, NPC guards, an office, endless storage space, a PC aide, a junior agent under him, more coins than he could ever spend, and scores of PCs that worked under him during his career. The indy ranger ends up with a lot of coins in the bank, an apartment, and a collection of interesting gear and biographies.

The incentives to play within clans are there and the gains far outweigh 99% of independent characters. I feel a lot of players don't realize this game is meant to be played over months, not weeks. No one ever besieged Allanak with their character they rolled up 6 weeks ago. It's impossible to prevent successful independents from accumulating wealth. If NPC shops refused to buy anything from independents, I could still end of with wealthy independent characters because I'd play a long lived, successful burglar, assassin, raider, or spy. None of these characters rely on NPCs. Worst of all, you'd still be mad because I'd be dressed as and telling everyone at the bar I'm just another successful hunter.

[tortall]

The incentives to play within clans are there and the gains far outweigh 99% of independent characters. I feel a lot of players don't realize this game is meant to be played over months, not weeks. No one ever besieged Allanak with their character they rolled up 6 weeks ago. It's impossible to prevent successful independents from accumulating wealth. If NPC shops refused to buy anything from independents, I could still end of with wealthy independent characters because I'd play a long lived, successful burglar, assassin, raider, or spy. None of these characters rely on NPCs. Worst of all, you'd still be mad because I'd be dressed as and telling everyone at the bar I'm just another successful hunter.

This and everything else.

Only SMALL things I'd change:

1) SLIGHTLY more pay. Maybe an extra 100 a half-month.
2) Allow hunters to sell stuff the House doesn't use, like certain parts to animals


As much as clan housing would be awesome.... Once you get to a certain rank within some of the clans, this is already possible.

[Malken]

The incentives to play within clans are there and the gains far outweigh 99% of independent characters. I feel a lot of players don't realize this game is meant to be played over months, not weeks. No one ever besieged Allanak with their character they rolled up 6 weeks ago. It's impossible to prevent successful independents from accumulating wealth. If NPC shops refused to buy anything from independents, I could still end of with wealthy independent characters because I'd play a long lived, successful burglar, assassin, raider, or spy. None of these characters rely on NPCs. Worst of all, you'd still be mad because I'd be dressed as and telling everyone at the bar I'm just another successful hunter.

This and everything else.
As much as clan housing would be awesome.... Once you get to a certain rank within some of the clans, this is already possible.

And some of you also forget that Armageddon is still a game that the most majority of players are not willing to dedicate months, if not years, for something that may or may not happen in the end. We're just going in a circle now.. For those of us who play indie characters, it's because we can make our own fun/plots/stories right from the start and if things get boring, it's only our fun.

But telling me that things might be exciting to me IF I stick to a clan for months is certainly not going to convince me to join a clan, thus, you are not making clans more appealing to me. Which is the title of said thread.

Make it more appealing to me to join a clan, not tell me that the way I play Armageddon is the wrong way.

(This thread has some good ideas, though, because I'm much less anti-clan than I was when I started reading it, but telling me that I need to stick to a role forever to start seeing the reward of being in the clan, eh.. When I was in Tor it was HORRIBLE.. We would pretty much spar all day and our "plot" was to go kill endless spiders once in a blue moon.. Then spar all day forever or stand by the gate and pretending that people cared about us being there.. That clan traumatized me for life)

[Quirk]

Your contention is your opinion, but it is based on some assumptions that simply are not true.  Essentially a middle manager...somewhat, I'll give you that.  Large monopoly--yes, that means they have to assist in maintaining that monopoly.  Facing no real threats--ha!  Asked to make life interesting--no, they generally aren't, that's a hopeful byproduct of them BEING interesting.  Create drama out of nothing?  They can, sure, but they don't have to.  Dial back their definition of interesting?  Yes, we're actively looking for sponsored leaders that essentially do nothing.

I think "facing no real threats" deserves a better answer than "ha!". What enmities does Kadius actually have? Who's going to mess with you specifically because you're a Kadian? Is there any substantial conflict going on that a rank and file Kadian would be aware of other than that rooted in personal squabbles? I can point to a place where conflict is definitely diluted: showing up in Nak with Northern ink or in Tuluk with a southern accent will get you in a whole lot less trouble if you're wearing Kadian colours.

Moving on: maintaining that monopoly against whom? Who's the threat here? The indies who mostly aren't even at the point of scraping a half-dozen people together in any one group, let alone the hallowed heights of having their own shop? Salarr and Kurac? A number of the posts in this thread have taken it almost as granted that Merchant Houses are so hand-in-glove that moving to a common pool of hunters or resources shared between them wouldn't strike anyone as unusual, and I've seen nothing in game to suggest anyone is threatening Kadius' core business. Maybe it's all going on in a back room and the Agents are playing high-stakes Kruth for each others' businesses and telling no-one of it. But if so, that's not a conflict which is doing heavy lifting in very many stories.

You can be a perfectly good middle manager in a large monopoly and have your staff be bored to tears. It happens in big companies all round the world. Uninteresting can arise sweetly and naturally from your normal daily drudgery. Actual inactivity is not required.

Playing as an indie doesn't give a player any super powers.  An indie has less resources and thus less to draw on for actual roleplay inspiration.  Being able to succeed without those resources is admirable.  Having those resources doesn't make someone automatically a dullard with no ability to roleplay.

Indies have less resources, but connecting that to less roleplay inspiration is fallacious. A wealth of resources can even be bad for roleplay inspiration, because it means you have fewer needs. The important factors are conflicts and tensions. A rich retired couple in an American suburb are resource-rich, but likely conflict-poor. Somali pirates are resource-poor, but conflict-rich. I know which of these I'd be more entertained to see a camera following for a day.

Or, to put it another way, there's a ton more tension and drama in a start-up than in a huge behemoth of a company. I've seen both. Personally, I'm addicted to the startup rollercoaster.

I'm not claiming at all that the players in resource-rich but conflict-poor scenarios are dullards with no ability to roleplay. I'm saying the exact opposite: they deserve more applause if they can make an interesting story, because they were starting with a handicap.

Play what you want to play, be the change you want to see, whatever.  Noble houses are going to be less gritty than the rest.  GMH roles at a certain level aren't that gritty.  The Byn, criminal gangs, PC-created clans are all going to be more gritty.  Tribes at a certain level are going to be more gritty.  There's something for everyone.

There's one active criminal gang clan I can think of. There's one Byn. There are three noble Houses in Allanak open, according to the website: Borsail, Oash and Fale. In Tuluk, Dasari, Tenneshi, Winrothol and Negean are listed as open. Kadius and Salarr have PCs in numbers (I'll concede Kurac does have some grit).

If you're interested in gritty city RP, there's a lot less support for you than there is for people who like to flounce around in nice clothes. It may be something for everyone, but it's a lot more for some than others. I'm not convinced it follows popular preference. Indeed, the concern that led to this thread being started - there are too many indies! - suggests that maybe, just maybe, some of those players are voting with their feet for grittier options, even if they have to give up some support to do it.

I suppose if you have a problem with this and you are playing in such a clan (and this is an actual problem in the clan), you should bring it up with your clan staff or clan leadership on their board.  If you're an indie and are just playing devil's advocate, then you have no idea what's going on with this presently, anyway.

The board's been going back and forth on this for pages now. This isn't a personal complaint - the list I made wasn't filled with personal complaints, but a compilation of reasons people had given for not wanting to be in clans. Clearly a lot of people are of the opinion that clan leaders can have clan items loaded up for them to sell without needing to involve their crafters, and a number have felt the crafters, and by extension the hunters, are thus rendered somewhat unnecessary. If this is incorrect, then straightening it out would probably make a lot of people happy.

When "nobody" and "slightly higher nobody" encompass much of the playerbase, and getting to be a slightly higher nobody without swearing allegiance to some clan or another takes a great deal of effort, it's still a jump that matters.

It's a system that is meant to be fluid, a chart that is meant to guide.  It's not set in stone.  Quibbling over this is silly.  It is an insignificant jump, depending on other variables.  A very long-lived independent commoner with ties to important people but no official affiliation is going to have more pull than the average just-off-the-boat shitty GMH crafter.  No one is going to run up and down the North Road waving the caste chart and saying their caste ranking has vastly improved.

Is that at all inconsistent with what I said? Because it seems to me you're agreeing that an independent has a lot to do to exceed the status of the "average" just-off-the-boat GMH crafter. If you're measuring status in terms of the scale from nobility to slave, sure, it's not a big step. If you're measuring status in terms of what the average PC gains over the course of their life, then, yeah, it is a pretty large bump.

[TheWanderer]

It's simple, really. We kill the independents.

[Quirk]

To dial things back a notch here...

My initial involvement kicked in when people started suggesting independents should get weakened in various ways in order to push people toward clans. This struck me as a bad idea. I feel indies have many advantages roleplay-wise. I feel some clans have enough interesting stuff to offer to offset some of these advantages. I've joined quite a few clans in my time with Arm, and a number of them I'd be enthusiastic about joining again.

I also feel that our current clan mix doesn't provide very much choice in terms of getting into the grittier side of the game, and that conflict between clans is pretty muted. We're a very long way from the Borgias. We're a long way from the youths of the Montagues and Capulets duelling in the streets after dark. We're a long way even from the average tumult of British politics before Cromwell redefined the country's relationship to the Crown. The big players are fairly happy with the way things are, and so they don't change much. When they do change, very few PCs are likely to have much of a hand in it. That's fine and all, but it's not precisely an inspiring place to focus as a story setting.

Virtually, there must be any number of smaller clans which aren't big and fat and rich and safe, which are encountering threats they need to be genuinely scared of. I think they're hogging a lot of the good stories.

Still, if we're going to stick with the clans we've got, I do think we could do better with regard to creating enough tension between them to actually filter down to the rank and file, who're currently knocking back ales together because someone of the same social class currently defaults to ally until they prove otherwise.

[Quirk]

Also, I imagine this is pretty predictable, but I like Narf's idea a lot.

[long live miley cyrus]

Take heart. Our vigilant and semi-vigilant voting will brainwash more and more people to join our great society, and eventually diminish this problem into a nonproblematic state, and then end it.

Of course by then if nothing else has changed we might need to resurrect Steinal and build more taverns just to deal with the numbers of people.