How to make clans more appealing?

[Fujikoma]

Fujikoma - The kind of RP and conflict that would make you think, "Christ, that's the reason I play this game and even G R R Martin couldn't come up with that shit!" or the kind that makes you think, "Christ, I swear I've read the same "storyline" in last week's Archie while on my five minutes toilet break at work today ..." style?

Well at first it was slow going (me being on own most of the time). I'm not going to say it's been like staring down the barrel of a loaded gun (been there, WOW, that's an interesting experience), or low-crawling three hundred yards under live fire, but things have a tendency to build up and escalate. I can't spit out any details, but things have begun to get quite interesting, with a hint of the sinister. Not like a Byn contract where you ride back barely put together and missing a quarter to half of your former comrades, that's for sure, but that's a different kind of conflict. I don't read Archie, I wouldn't know.

EDIT: Malken, I fear you will greet each thing I say with hostility until you actually play in some clans with me and get to know my PCs. I think the problem stems from the fact that you don't know exactly how I play the game. Now, our PCs may or may not have run into eachother in the past, but we wouldn't know. If you form an opinion from piecing together all my posts on the GDB you will get a horrendously inaccurate perspective.

2ndEDIT: I think doing away with banks or capping accounts would result, in some cases, in a type of "share the wealth" mentality, which, while not bad and can create plots, would work to undermine the gritty aspects of the game, and take away from the either real or perceived acts of generosity that already occur IG.

[HavokBlue]

I don't think I have much more to add to the thread besides the fact that I think it's super neat staff are looking at this sort of thing, and the fact that I feel a lot of the issues people keep mentioning are up to individual leaders in clans.

Obviously staff can change documentation and whatnot for some sort of permanent change, but that takes time, when players can do make this sort of thing happen to some extent already.

Employees aren't getting paid enough?
Make more money to distribute. Hand out bonuses. Skim the clan accounts for extra funds (just make sure you put that in your reports )

Not enough conflict?
Make some conflict. You don't have to play the perfect character. Your PC doesn't even necessarily need some sort of material gain or whatnot. People start conflicts over all sorts of stupid things and petty disagreements. Set a goal for yourself or your clan. In my experience, staff will let you pursue a lot of things you might not have considered, if you're willing to put the time and effort in.

Amos the Indie Hunter is making more money than your minions and they're questioning why they work for you when they could work with Amos?
You fucking kill Amos. That's why they work for you.


People see the same old "kill this guy buy this thing mastercraft this thing mudsex this guy" plots because they are easy and obvious but there's so much more room for things beyond that if you go looking.

[James de Monet]

I disagree about influence being hard to code.

Influence is easy to code (though perhaps time consuming). You just add a new clan called "Friend of Tuluk" or "Friend of Allanak". Something like that. It doesn't get you in any doors, it doesn't get you discounts, but if the Nenyuk are going to fleece people, you can believe they'd fleece a recognized "friend" of important people less than they'd fleece Amos Indie.  It would have the additional benefit of increasing schmoozing, since people would want to get recruited into it.

Besides, in all my time playing this game, I can think of maybe one totally indie character who genuinely had enough pull to get better treatment than any other indie.  And you know why? He gave out mad bribes.  You have to understand that this takes into account what they're doing on the side though. Socially acceptable "bad" things (like crime, vicious business practices, corruption) are one thing. Socially unacceptable "bad" things (anything to do with magick, being in bed with the other city state, making enemies of powerful people) don't make you an influential indie. They make you a dangerous liability.

[Wish]

Employees aren't getting paid enough?
Make more money to distribute. Hand out bonuses. Skim the clan accounts for extra funds (just make sure you put that in your reports )

This is a great way to get your banking privs eventually revoked as a clan leader, just fyi. 

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Influence could certainly be coded in. Tuluk is a great example of marginal restrictions based on simple insignia. So are the fact that merchants can give different clans different prices.

[evilcabbage]

See, you report the skimming as "Extra expenses related to gear needs amongst the crew" and when the Crew asks "Did we get gear?" and one guy reports "Yeah, I just got fitted in some armor and got a weapon", then your leaders go "Well okay, that money went to equipping our hunters/guards/whatever."

"Skimming" is such a bad word to use. I prefer, "self-propagating funding to ensure a higher quality of life for leader and minion."

[FantasyWriter]

"Reallocation."

[HavokBlue]

That was just one example, but to expand on that, I meant report it OOCly regardless of what you're ICly telling your superiors. That way staff are aware of what is happening despite the fact that Head Noble Malik isn't.

[Voular]

Okay I didn't read much in this thread but I will offer my opinion about clans and what could make them better.

Most of them are boring as clans. You might have wondered why X or Y clan suddenly got popular? It's because they have awesome characters in them. And often you don't know, unless you OOC whore around and ask - so you're often taking a roulette with your spanking new character when you join a clan. Mismatched timezones, so on - suddenly the clan can SUCK BALLS because of purely OOC reasons. There is no single clan that is so 'awesome' or whatever that it would be fun to play in it solo. Most clans also have rules in places that prevent you from breaking out of your solo roleplay without being a clever or creative bastard (which, honestly, not many of us are).

What I am trying to say is that clans are a group effort, you have to provide to be provided for. Creating content is the content. However, if your clan is setup in a way to limit your arena - then you'll suffer. That's why clans like Byn and Militia should need more IMM and senior player involvment because left to their own devices without clever bastards in them they become dull. Same with noble houses, in essence they're all the same, but are vastly different to play in because of the characters that inhabit them.

Alas, what you can do to make clans fun is either conscript everyone into one or open them up more and make them more fluid. Free commoners shouldn't be considered slave labour, like they often seem to be to merchant and noble houses. I am not saying we need a radical shift in policy or game world - but often you get the "YOU'RE FUCKING DEAD TO ME AMOS STONECRAFTER #234 OF KADIUS IF YOU EVER LEAVE MY FUCKING EMPLOY! I WILL HUNT YOU AND EVERYONE YOU KNOW IF YOU QUIT TO CREATE YOUR OWN MINING COMPANY!".

Also jazz clans up ffs. Give militia free mounts, better stables - have them ride wall perimiter. Give the Byn a way to make steady coins by scripting in some sort of gith clearing thing. I don't know, shit can be done to facility more roleplay and less fucking headaches over logistics with our ancient engine which is a lot of clan leadership.

[Chettaman]

Okay I didn't read much in this thread but I will offer my opinion about clans and what could make them better.

Most of them are boring as clans. You might have wondered why X or Y clan suddenly got popular? It's because they have awesome characters in them. And often you don't know, unless you OOC whore around and ask - so you're often taking a roulette with your spanking new character when you join a clan. Mismatched timezones, so on - suddenly the clan can SUCK BALLS because of purely OOC reasons. There is no single clan that is so 'awesome' or whatever that it would be fun to play in it solo. Most clans also have rules in places that prevent you from breaking out of your solo roleplay without being a clever or creative bastard (which, honestly, not many of us are).

What I am trying to say is that clans are a group effort, you have to provide to be provided for. Creating content is the content. However, if your clan is setup in a way to limit your arena - then you'll suffer. That's why clans like Byn and Militia should need more IMM and senior player involvment because left to their own devices without clever bastards in them they become dull. Same with noble houses, in essence they're all the same, but are vastly different to play in because of the characters that inhabit them.

Alas, what you can do to make clans fun is either conscript everyone into one or open them up more and make them more fluid. Free commoners shouldn't be considered slave labour, like they often seem to be to merchant and noble houses. I am not saying we need a radical shift in policy or game world - but often you get the "YOU'RE FUCKING DEAD TO ME AMOS STONECRAFTER #234 OF KADIUS IF YOU EVER LEAVE MY FUCKING EMPLOY! I WILL HUNT YOU AND EVERYONE YOU KNOW IF YOU QUIT TO CREATE YOUR OWN MINING COMPANY!".

Also jazz clans up ffs. Give militia free mounts, better stables - have them ride wall perimiter. Give the Byn a way to make steady coins by scripting in some sort of gith clearing thing. I don't know, shit can be done to facility more roleplay and less fucking headaches over logistics with our ancient engine which is a lot of clan leadership.

+1

I want to encourage firing employees once more. Instill that fear of not being needed if the storage room is so full that people resort to just dropping things in boxes they don't belong.

[Harmless]

People may not all be clever bastards, I agree, but friendships more than make up for that.

There are a shit-ton of great ideas in this thead by now, but another that comes to mind, kind of the Byn equivalent of a materials-buying NPC for the GMH, would be a Gith-gear or Gith-head bounty buyer.

[Chettaman]

I also agree with this.

I remember with one character, I decided to wash my clothes. I got that globuluk stuff and dipped all my clothes in it and then layed it all out to dry. And then, for some reason I invited my friends, who I can't remember if they were actually in the same clan as I was - but I let them in anyway because that character did what he wanted.
anyway. I remember all we did was sit and talk on the porch. One conversation in particular was about dwarves. Or midgets. Or both. - and sex. I remember having a great time. Definately one of the highlights of my arm life guys. kudos to those guys or girls.

[Riev]

I also agree with this.

I remember with one character, I decided to wash my clothes. I got that globuluk stuff and dipped all my clothes in it and then layed it all out to dry. And then, for some reason I invited my friends, who I can't remember if they were actually in the same clan as I was - but I let them in anyway because that character did what he wanted.
anyway. I remember all we did was sit and talk on the porch. One conversation in particular was about dwarves. Or midgets. Or both. - and sex. I remember having a great time. Definately one of the highlights of my arm life guys. kudos to those guys or girls.

I was one. It was Salarr!

[RogueGunslinger]

I also agree with this.

I remember with one character, I decided to wash my clothes. I got that globuluk stuff and dipped all my clothes in it and then layed it all out to dry. And then, for some reason I invited my friends, who I can't remember if they were actually in the same clan as I was - but I let them in anyway because that character did what he wanted.
anyway. I remember all we did was sit and talk on the porch. One conversation in particular was about dwarves. Or midgets. Or both. - and sex. I remember having a great time. Definately one of the highlights of my arm life guys. kudos to those guys or girls.

I was one. It was Salarr!

I was another. That there porch had a lot of sitting and talking done on it. I think Riev was our boss? That was indeed fun times. Can't remember what my character's name was.

[Scarecrow]

I have played with Fujikoma's characters, mostly his half-elves, and he's great fun to RP with.

Anyone who thinks the Byn is dull has never played in the Byn. And anyone who thinks a state police force clan (Legion/AOTD) is dull hasn't realised the possibilities such a placement can give you.

Maybe that's just me but there it is.

[Fujikoma]

I have played with Fujikoma's characters, mostly his half-elves, and he's great fun to RP with.

Anyone who thinks the Byn is dull has never played in the Byn. And anyone who thinks a state police force clan (Legion/AOTD) is dull hasn't realised the possibilities such a placement can give you.

Maybe that's just me but there it is.

Oh! Holy shit! Thanks!
Yeah, those clans definitely do not look dull. I don't see a clan that looks dull. Maybe I'm a bit off here, but it seems like it's what you make it, you know? PC doesn't like the boss? Fuck him, give him the finger and throw a mug in his face. Maybe you die, but that's just how it is. Clan's dull? Get out there and start some trouble. Maybe you get arrested, executed, fired or something, but that's what happens sometimes. Start crap, make things happen. Can't just wait for someone else to come along and make them happen, especially if your boss is always gone.

That said, more money would be nice, until then, there's always breaking the rules, stealing, side work, etc.

[Kryos]

Having only read mostly the front page, mind you, I'll chip in.

1)  Don't raise clan pay:  crush indep money making.  Sure, lots will argue this isn't/fair/fun whatever.  But the simple truth is, indep play isn't harsh enough on indeps.  They're the scum that should be crushed under boot.  This is Arm, inflation is not M/C/B approved.

Note:  I contend still that the whole of the game economy is entirely out of whack and could use a massive overhaul, top to bottom.  So this is not a meager thing to request.

2)  Clans are: restrictive/force schedules:  BS.  Some might, but where have you been playing lately?  Byn is the Byn, mind you, but in no way, shape, or form are all clans the Byn.  And even in the Byn, there's favoritism, differences in style, and so on.

3) Clans are good to play in because they give you 100% certain plot.  You won't just jump in feet first into the thick of it 9/10 times, but once you've had a rl month under your belt playing in one, the shit will hit the fan.  And if you aren't living a rl month, then, I say to you, that you have other problems to worry about than this thread.

Edit:  Chewing on this a bit more, I thought I should add clans do need some love.  Things like giving Noble house Sergeant+ ranks legal immunity so they can cut down random theives/elves/idiots.  Compiling on the money scarcity with superelitebadass Merchant House gear for their crews that's the envy (and out of reach) of Joe Dirt.  I believe all of these kinds of tweaks would up the ante of the game in a rewarding way.  Especially if done in tandem with one another.

[evilcabbage]

Having only read mostly the front page, mind you, I'll chip in.

1)  Don't raise clan pay:  crush indep money making.  Sure, lots will argue this isn't/fair/fun whatever.  But the simple truth is, indep play isn't harsh enough on indeps.  They're the scum that should be crushed under boot.  This is Arm, inflation is not M/C/B approved.

Note:  I contend still that the whole of the game economy is entirely out of whack and could use a massive overhaul, top to bottom.  So this is not a meager thing to request.

2)  Clans are: restrictive/force schedules:  BS.  Some might, but where have you been playing lately?  Byn is the Byn, mind you, but in no way, shape, or form are all clans the Byn.  And even in the Byn, there's favoritism, differences in style, and so on.

3) Clans are good to play in because they give you 100% certain plot.  You won't just jump in feet first into the thick of it 9/10 times, but once you've had a rl month under your belt playing in one, the shit will hit the fan.  And if you aren't living a rl month, then, I say to you, that you have other problems to worry about than this thread.

Edit:  Chewing on this a bit more, I thought I should add clans do need some love.  Things like giving Noble house Sergeant+ ranks legal immunity so they can cut down random theives/elves/idiots.  Compiling on the money scarcity with superelitebadass Merchant House gear for their crews that's the envy (and out of reach) of Joe Dirt.  I believe all of these kinds of tweaks would up the ante of the game in a rewarding way.  Especially if done in tandem with one another.

Noble houses are not the Militia. They don't -get- legal immunity, because they can fucking abuse that.

Let's say a noble Sergeant+ sees Sergeant Kadius/Salarr/Byn, and Sergeant Kadius/Salarr/Byn has been brawling with him. Sergeant+ Noble worker attackes Sergeant Kadius/Salarr/Byn because he can get away with it, the guards jump in, and a long-lived GMH guy just died. That's not fucking fun, that's -stupid-.

[LauraMars]

Let's say a noble Sergeant+ sees Sergeant Kadius/Salarr/Byn, and Sergeant Kadius/Salarr/Byn has been brawling with him. Sergeant+ Noble worker attackes Sergeant Kadius/Salarr/Byn because he can get away with it, the guards jump in, and a long-lived GMH guy just died. That's not fucking fun, that's -stupid-.

This is something that can happen already with militia/legion privates and higher.  I rarely, if ever, have seen abuse of this nature happen, probably because when a militia private is made, he is told not to abuse his law immunity or there will be consequences - but the reality of the situation is that a militia private could hit Lord Oash in the face with his hammer and Lord Oash would go to jail (or die).  There's a lot more militia privates+ than there are noble house Sergeants, and I'm sure the same rules would apply, so I don't really think the argument can be made that adding this feature will cause abuse and therefore it should not be added.

We can argue it from another perspective, though, like you feel this feature should not be added because it conflicts in some way with the IC reality of what the law would realistically allow.

I sorta like the idea, myself, but I like the idea of a more flexible criminal code more - which is a conversation for another thread.

[BleakOne]

On the other hand, there's already a lot of roles who can do that, militia folks and Kuraci for example, and those who misuse don't last long. Militia privates are just as likely to kill someone who pisses them off, and it takes less time to climb one rank than the three or four it might take to make Sarge+ in a Noble House.

Edited to add - This was in response to Cabbage. LauraMars Ninja'd me.

[evilcabbage]

Doesn't matter. The law is already powerful enough in that regard, and we have plenty of people who are immune to the law/can empower others to be immune to the law as -necessary- to act in those situations. The Templarate handles the law, and they don't let Nobles -workers- flash immunity to it, because that would imply that Noblemans working class are equal to the Law. They're not even close.

[Quirk]

Doesn't matter. The law is already powerful enough in that regard, and we have plenty of people who are immune to the law/can empower others to be immune to the law as -necessary- to act in those situations. The Templarate handles the law, and they don't let Nobles -workers- flash immunity to it, because that would imply that Noblemans working class are equal to the Law. They're not even close.

I may have missed this update - who's allowed to empower others to be immune to the law as necessary? There was an old gripe of mine that a noble Lord defied by a Rinth rat in public couldn't just order his men to seize the miscreant and drag him away, or have the rat cut down on the spot. Has that been fixed? I feel that nobles themselves should certainly be able to suspend crimcode for their followers temporarily, certainly as regards actions against those low on the social ladder and possibly even entirely - the consequences that will come to a noble who orders his followers to cut down a GMH member probably should come through a mechanism other than an onslaught of NPC guards.

[ale six]

I believe cabbage might be referring to rare instances when a templar or militia sergeant with recruiting privs temporarily recruits someone into the militia clan so that they won't be crimmed by NPC soldiers for doing stuff a templar orders them to do, like subdue an elf or whatever. There might be a time when a templar needs PC backup, but none of his lackeys are online, so he grabs Red Scorpion Amos and Wyvern Malik to help him hunt down an elf. This isn't very common, though.

Allowing noble guards crim code immunity, or giving nobles power to grant immunity is an interesting idea. I'm not sure where I fall on it. On one hand, it's sure annoying as a noble when someone is standing there insulting you and your three guards, and you aren't able to get any PC law enforcement to come handle him. But I don't think that's -too- common either, and when it does happen the situation usually ends up like you think, just not always as timely as we would like. On the other hand, there's an interesting balance of power that exists between nobles (who have lots of money, but no direct coded power) and templars (who have lots of power, but need to earn money and influence from friends). I'm not sure empowering the nobility to be less dependent on templars is a good way to go.

All that said, I do wish the crim code was a little better about taking status and severity of crime into account, but as Laura said, that should maybe be in another thread!

[Desertman]

PCs can create clans and do this if they want that.  There won't be any guarantee of coded support but that is part of the difficulty (and allure) of such a thing.

Just chiming in to say that this is by far one of my favorite things to do. Warning, it almost never works out for the long-term, if you do it right you will make the actual merchant/noble Houses you are competing with angry, and they will come after you to try and ruin you.

However, running an indy clan/organization that isn't just riding in the wake of some other House or established organization and playing it "safe" is one of the more rewarding and plot starting/driving things you can do.

I highly suggest that if you are a veteran player, and are capable of doing this, you should try it at least once.

You want conflict? This will get you all of the conflict you want and more.

There isn't a lot of House on House conflict generally. But you make an indy clan that deals in something another established organization deals in, and you will see what it is like quickly to compete IC'ly with a monopoly.

Be the change you want to see in Armageddon. If you are complaining there is no competition for Houses and established monopolies, create some, it can be done, has been done, and it is a lot of fun.

Signed - The guy who has been assassinated/killed by Salarr, the T'zai Byn (twice), and Kadius, for messing with their monopolies with indy clans.

OOC'ly it also creates a TON of fun for everyone involved. Those House family members WANT to be messed with so they can play the "ruthless" merchants and shut down their competition. They don't get to do it a lot, so please, consider their feelings and give them someone to go after.

[Narf]

PCs can create clans and do this if they want that.  There won't be any guarantee of coded support but that is part of the difficulty (and allure) of such a thing.

Just chiming in to say that this is by far one of my favorite things to do. Warning, it almost never works out for the long-term, if you do it right you will make the actual merchant/noble Houses you are competing with angry, and they will come after you to try and ruin you.

However, running an indy clan/organization that isn't just riding in the wake of some other House or established organization and playing it "safe" is one of the more rewarding and plot starting/driving things you can do.

I highly suggest that if you are a veteran player, and are capable of doing this, you should try it at least once.

You want conflict? This will get you all of the conflict you want and more.

I've done this now three times, and honestly most forms of coded support aren't at all necessary... with one exception. I really really wish we could have something like a clan board for the sole purpose of organizing play schedules. Contacting everyone in game to OOC about when everyone will be on constantly is easily and above my least favorite part of creating organizations in game.