How to make clans more appealing?

[Fujikoma]

Now I don't know, but just about every character I have lands in a clan at some point or other. They do tend to spend time as indies, and there have been numerous interesting small plots that have developed as a result of this, and I do so like interacting with other PCs that I am hesitant to join a clan, at least right away, as restrictions and schedules kind of get to me, but that's just me, and I do almost always land in one, for better or worse... Then maybe end up indie again, and if they survive long enough, maybe another clan. I don't frequently see unclanned characters who aren't seeking a clan, but I don't see everything. I have my minor bitches about clans, but mine don't matter because I'm a sucker for them and I'm a newer player. So instead of crippling independents (or murdering their loved ones, or burning down their apartment building, or slamming their fingers in a door (wait that last one is literally crippling), what are things that maybe are important considerations that could make clans more appealing to those who, for whatever reason, will not join a clan, ever?

[Malken]

I can tell you easily what makes clans UNAPPEALING to me, in order, probably..

1) Schedules - I hate them. I don't want to be told that it's fighting atop an inix spartime when there's like 20 interesting people at the bar. Actually, unless more than two people agree that this is what needs to be done (with the leader having right of veto), there should be absolutely no schedule. Beside, training and sparring 10 hours a day for 6 rl months is not going to do you much good when you're now getting out of your compound to go and face 20 Tuluki Legions all targeting your assassin PC wannabe Sergeant.

2) Low pay - We discussed that a lot. Not being able to afford a pinch of spice or a mug of ale more than once every 2 days while all of my other indie buddies are getting friends and partners out the cabooze by buying them drinks and spice all over the place is simply frustrating.

3) Being stuck inside the walls - That is very annoying to me, especially when you're a veteran and you play a lot.. If there's nobody in your clan from 10am to 7pm and you're stuck hitting a dummy or sitting by yourself forever at the Tooth, sorry buddy, but I'm going to ditch your clan and go kill me some hawks or forage and then roll myself in the mountain of spice I can now afford.

... That's about it, I think.. Without the above three, I can easily deal wit hthe rest.

[Zoan]

But what about realism, Malkimus Prime?

[Malken]

But what about realism, Malkimus Prime?

Schedule, low pay and being stuck inside the walls is what every students like myself get to rp on a daily basis.

Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedoooooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! *kicks Zoan in the gortok-filled pit (also known as an Australian toilet)*

[Zoan]

POSSUM ATTACK POSSUM ATTACK

[Cutthroat]

I can tell you easily what makes clans UNAPPEALING to me, in order, probably..

1) Schedules - I hate them. I don't want to be told that it's fighting atop an inix spartime when there's like 20 interesting people at the bar. Actually, unless more than two people agree that this is what needs to be done (with the leader having right of veto), there should be absolutely no schedule. Beside, training and sparring 10 hours a day for 6 rl months is not going to do you much good when you're now getting out of your compound to go and face 20 Tuluki Legions all targeting your assassin PC wannabe Sergeant.

2) Low pay - We discussed that a lot. Not being able to afford a pinch of spice or a mug of ale more than once every 2 days while all of my other indie buddies are getting friends and partners out the cabooze by buying them drinks and spice all over the place is simply frustrating.

3) Being stuck inside the walls - That is very annoying to me, especially when you're a veteran and you play a lot.. If there's nobody in your clan from 10am to 7pm and you're stuck hitting a dummy or sitting by yourself forever at the Tooth, sorry buddy, but I'm going to ditch your clan and go kill me some hawks or forage and then roll myself in the mountain of spice I can now afford.

... That's about it, I think.. Without the above three, I can easily deal wit hthe rest.

Pay should be increased significantly. Clan salary should be more about a means to keep plots running and less about what someone in that position would be "reasonably" paid, since there are no standards for what reasonable pay for independents is. Clan pay should basically be (a magic number that staff come up with and say that an average indie should be making) minus (the cost of the free food, water, storage, housing etc given to you by the clan). Failing that, employer stipends should be increased to encourage more giving of bonuses (or theft from the employer by the employees...).

The being stuck inside the walls rule is an enforcement of the idea that outside the walls are dangerous, and it's only really enforced on clan members that don't need to be outside given their position. Hunters don't get rules like this - soldiers, aides, crafters and such do. That said, either the outside needs to be made more dangerous or clans should be encouraged to be a bit more careful about applying this rule (for example, only applying it to people who just joined recently and haven't proved themselves yet).

As for schedules, I think they should be fluid in how and when they apply. They basically should not apply if you're the only PC in your clan logged in.

[BleakOne]

It's only Australian if the gortoks are poisonous.

Back on topic: The only small thing which bothers me about clans is the low pay, and only generally for the first year or two IC of a character's life. After that, sids become less and less important as time goes on.

[Barsook]

I agree, it's the pay that's the issue with me.

[Malken]

Pay should be increased significantly. Clan salary should be more about a means to keep plots running and less about what someone in that position would be "reasonably" paid, since there are no standards for what reasonable pay for independents is. Clan pay should basically be (a magic number that staff come up with and say that an average indie should be making) minus (the cost of the free food, water, storage, housing etc given to you by the clan). Failing that, employer stipends should be increased to encourage more giving of bonuses (or theft from the employer by the employees...).

Yup, agree with everything you said.

The being stuck inside the walls rule is an enforcement of the idea that outside the walls are dangerous, and it's only really enforced on clan members that don't need to be outside given their position. Hunters don't get rules like this - soldiers, aides, crafters and such do. That said, either the outside needs to be made more dangerous or clans should be encouraged to be a bit more careful about applying this rule (for example, only applying it to people who just joined recently and haven't proved themselves yet).

I also agree that there are certain roles that this is definitely not proper for (like if you join the militia, you are expected to stay inside, and you know that as a player, so extras should be found for such a role to tip the balance a little.. Encouraging players to be play criminals and helping them to achieve so in both cities would help greatly..)

I also agree that leaders should be more flexible with the guy they just hired. Don't go giving them your best leftover armors on day one and then curse when they go outside the wall and die, but on the other hand, if the guy you just hired looks and sound like he knows what he's doing, give him a little leeway, especially if he comes at a no risk discount (the guy already has armor, a mount and sounds like he knows "stuff), so even if he were to go out and die, you're not losing anything but a recruit that you probably would have lost in other ways, anyway.

As for schedules, I think they should be fluid in how and when they apply. They basically should not apply if you're the only PC in your clan logged in.

I also agree with you as well! (That and with a little freedom and trust that I won't do something stupid, you will have in me an happy peon who will probably stick around and become a leader of your clan eventually)

Sounds like you're the kind of leader I'm looking for when I (rarely these days) join a clan! What's your clan?

[boog]

HAH.

But yes. If I log on and am in a clan and I can't find anybody else, you're damn right I'm not going to sit around in the compound/fortress/what the fuck ever. It's just not going to happen.

Excuse it by saying you're on street patrol, escorting a vnpc, whatever, should anybody ask, and you stopped into the tavern for a quick drink to relax after a trying day. I know that excuse isn't applicable to all clans, but sometimes you just need a small example to think out of the box.

The restricting schedules are insane. I think yes, they should be more fluid, but at the same time, I never had any issues with the Byn, for example, with schedules, not finding people, et cetera. I know that can't be said of every clan, but they're a great example to the counter argument of how a schedule can and does work well.

Byn pay on the other hand? Realistic. Maddening, but realistic and acceptable to/for me. Other clans? I would hope they pay better, while giving the usual perks (being backed by a merchant/noble house so if you fuck up, or someone fucks you up, you can be protected, use their influence, et cetera).

[X-D]

Well...here is what I think.

First off...the clans have become TO much the same.

Mistake #1 IMO is that almost all clans have at least tried to put in a Byn style schedule. I think this is a mistake. The Byn SHOULD have that schedule, in fact, if I join the Byn it is one of the reasons to join. Because you know you have these times to work on these things and hang with your clannies.

I think that All the rest the clans should drop them. I would however keep a short simple schedule that promotes some get together...say 2 days a week. In Salarr for instance,  Ocandra Dawn to early afternoon Sparring ring free for all...be there! Waleuk All day, FIVE C's...Cooking, compound cleaning, crafting and carousing! (carousing of course means drinking)

I think that people need to work harder in returning the clan to a unique setting.

Next...leaving the gates. Some clans have to have that rule...but some do not.

Pay...All clans have too low pay still.

Percs...Well, that is up to the leader PCs...but maybe try and remember they are the best way to keep good players.

Life oath...All three GMH should get rid* of it, as well as timed contracts past the recruit phase.

* Life oath in a GMH should carry heavy duty percs, clan apartment, high pay, special gear etc, but should be reserved for really special PCs who want to give it and deserve it.

Noble houses should mostly ditch life oath and go to contract....but switch to raising ranks and all other percs do require life oath.

Militia/legian...Sorry, I see life oath as needed there.

There is a few other things...but I am eating.

To continue.

If I had my way, I would add "Clan Archetype" To all clan docs and make sure that the Sponsered roles of those clans knew to not only stick to it but make sure they hired people that fit, rather then the current method of  "get anything with a pulse and hope."

Like, Kadius, the Archetypical Kadian would be Ramirez Sean Connery, Highlander, Well dressed, well spoken a bit snobbish and deadly.

Salarr, Thor and crew, from the movie. Love to fight and party, really nice equipment, braggarts.

Kurac Just fucking gangsta..Anything goes as long as you obey our few simple rules. Archetype, the two cartel assassins from breaking bad.

Byn...Well, the Byn is already doing a good job on that, partly I think because the Byn docs do spell out what they are exactly.

Most the noble houses do a good job there too...though Some could use a little tightening of the docs in that area.

Legion..The elves at Helms deep.

Militia Uruk Hai at Helms deep.

[Patuk]

HAH.

But yes. If I log on and am in a clan and I can't find anybody else, you're damn right I'm not going to sit around in the compound/fortress/what the fuck ever. It's just not going to happen.

Excuse it by saying you're on street patrol, escorting a vnpc, whatever, should anybody ask, and you stopped into the tavern for a quick drink to relax after a trying day. I know that excuse isn't applicable to all clans, but sometimes you just need a small example to think out of the box.

The restricting schedules are insane. I think yes, they should be more fluid, but at the same time, I never had any issues with the Byn, for example, with schedules, not finding people, et cetera. I know that can't be said of every clan, but they're a great example to the counter argument of how a schedule can and does work well.

Byn pay on the other hand? Realistic. Maddening, but realistic and acceptable to/for me. Other clans? I would hope they pay better, while giving the usual perks (being backed by a merchant/noble house so if you fuck up, or someone fucks you up, you can be protected, use their influence, et cetera).

Heh. This one reminds me of my das in the Sun Legion.

'Alright recruits, you all get one day off each, once a week, no preset day.'

A day with no people at all in sight? Free day off!  

[morrigan]

Well...here is what I think.

First off...the clans have become TO much the same.

Mistake #1 IMO is that almost all clans have at least tried to put in a Byn style schedule. I think this is a mistake. The Byn SHOULD have that schedule, in fact, if I join the Byn it is one of the reasons to join. Because you know you have these times to work on these things and hang with your clannies.

I think that All the rest the clans should drop them. I would however keep a short simple schedule that promotes some get together...say 2 days a week. In Salarr for instance,  Ocandra Dawn to early afternoon Sparring ring free for all...be there! Waleuk All day, FIVE C's...Cooking, compound cleaning, crafting and carousing! (carousing of course means drinking)

I think that people need to work harder in returning the clan to a unique setting.

Next...leaving the gates. Some clans have to have that rule...but some do not.

Pay...All clans have too low pay still.

Percs...Well, that is up to the leader PCs...but maybe try and remember they are the best way to keep good players.

Life oath...All three GMH should get rid* of it, as well as timed contracts past the recruit phase.

* Life oath in a GMH should carry heavy duty percs, clan apartment, high pay, special gear etc, but should be reserved for really special PCs who want to give it and deserve it.

Noble houses should mostly ditch life oath and go to contract....but switch to raising ranks and all other percs do require life oath.

Militia/legian...Sorry, I see life oath as needed there.

There is a few other things...but I am eating.

I agree. Maybe most of the non military type clans should drop the schedules. There's very little point to it. In a military setting like the Byn or the Arm, you expect to have a strict regimen to follow and it makes sense. Not so much for the others. Even hunters for the houses should be more focused on getting a few people together to go hunting rather than trying to adopt a military style life. They should be more of a rough and tumble go kill shit type of organization.

[Eyeball]

(removed)

[HavokBlue]

While it's not true for every clan, a lot of the issues discussed in this thread (schedules, pay, restrictive environment) seem like things that can be handled by leaders in-game.

[Barsook]

I think pay is not a leader's thing any more since we have the automated system in most clans.

[Malken]

While it's not true for every clan, a lot of the issues discussed in this thread (schedules, pay, restrictive environment) seem like things that can be handled by leaders in-game.

Yes, of course some of it can be, but the point of this thread is to find ways to make clans more appealing and I stated what makes them less appealing to me and part of it cannot be changed by players only.

A higher salary for the clannies would require a higher salary for leaders if you're talking about passing some of it over, while, like Barsook say, simply changing how much everyone in the clan gets is something almost everyone seem to agree on.

Also, not every leaders are willing to change schedules for this person or that person and stick to what's in the docs, that or when your leader dies and he is replaced by another one and then your lifesworn PC gets stuck with the new leader who wants it to be a heavy scheduled clan, then it sucks. If the documented schedule is made lighter and approved by Staff, more than the current PC leader, it's a lot easier to deal with.

Same with restrictive environment. I don't want a leader to allow me to something then the next leader doesn't want me to do it then the next one does, etc.. If it's in the clan docs, much easier again.

[Refugee]

While it's not true for every clan, a lot of the issues discussed in this thread (schedules, pay, restrictive environment) seem like things that can be handled by leaders in-game.

I dunno, my experience is limited, but staff seems very strict on all that.

[Synthesis]

All of this "x is allowed or not" is highly dependent on your staff, your PC's leaders, and your PC.

Also, if you want to make money in a clan, pick a damn crafting subguild or a guild/subguild with haggle instead of an ass-kicking subguild.

[Kronibas]

your lifesworn PC gets stuck with the new leader who wants it to be a heavy scheduled clan, then it sucks.

For the actual leaders of clans, this is similar to staff rotations. Right or wrong, my last long lived sponsored leader dude died partially as a result of the way the higher up NPCs reacted to his actions, but with the previous higher up before staff rotations (in this case, a RL month had passed), that leader knew where he stood a lot better and events likely would not have panned out as they did.

It's the same thing when some dude takes on an in game leadership position in a clan where there are already established PCs... there are sometimes conflicts of varying degrees.  Ideally, someone in a sponsored role would start from scratch, but in reality, they often have to work around people who are already established,sometimes deeply entrenched, in the clan. This can cause problems because people have, uhh, different... philosophies. 

I'm not saying things like this are a Huge Problem, but they make leading clans frustrating at times.  In the end, some people are just better suited to handle/deal with those frustrations than others.

Ultimately, I don't think things like increasing salaries will help make clans more awesome and badass. 


Awesome and badass leaders (plural, not just one leader) are what make awesome and badass clans, and if you make clans appealing to people like that, then clans will be more fun. 

[Wish]

A bigger operating budget would be great - it's easy to feel like you're boxed in by your bank account as a leader, and it can take some time to learn how to work around that.

I'm probably in the minority here, but I miss senior npcs being animated as well.  It gave clans a very alive feeling - even (or maybe especially) when you got in trouble.  Most (but not all) of the clan npc animations I've been the target of in the past have involved my character getting fucked over, scolded, persecuted, mocked, intimidated, or threatened - it was rarely a positive thing, but damn I miss it anyway.

For the most part I've found I can work around clan schedules - I'd say that schedules are my least pressing concern about joining a clan.  I probably won't join a clan unless I'm mentally prepared to deal with some sort of schedule - and if I end up not liking it, my character can play hooky and suffer the consequences.

[slvrmoontiger]

I've only been in two clans before and have been playing for all told take away breaks and absences probably the better part of 10-15 years. I agree pay sucks, schedules suck, and being stuck inside when you were a hunter before being in the clan sucks. What sometimes also really sucks is getting burdened with all the work because no one else is in the clan or those that are, are hardly ever around. Or because you're one step up from recruit or whatever the entry position is. These all really really really suck and make me bang my head against the wall out of complete boredom sometimes too. Having said that I try to avoid clans like the plague now.

[Kronibas]

I wouldn't be against raising clan salaries... maybe even drastically... if I thought it would help.  Hell, it might.  But I personally would not join a clan for only coins, even if it was 5000 sid a month.  Some people may, though.  I genuinely don't know.

[Kronibas]

Crazy idea, here, for encouraging more clan play in a region where it is... terribly easy... to survive as an individual.

What if, instead of just some ghetto building and overpriced RSC vendor, the merchant houses had a resources emporium?

The emporium would buy resources from clanned hunters at fair rates, resources from independents at the rates that the Salarr stand in Nak buys (read: not very much), and then resell these goods at HUGE discounts to clanned crafters, but HUGE markups to indie crafters?  Also, clanned members would be allowed to haggle, providing another incentive for merchants to actual be guild_merchant.

These would replace the current resource selling/buying locations or incorporate them somehow.  And this could be an IC change, too, that would provide a project for GMH clannies to work on.  It would also maybe do away with the pervasive, sometimes inane (I am totally guilty, here) cluttering of clan storage halls.  Alternately, these places could operate within clan halls, in a way similar to the current "merchant" NPCs.

Change could be explained ICly by the GMHs deciding that they need a firmer grip on the wildly uncontrolled "resources" sector... or it might allow a group or entity to arise and claim the monopoly for themselves.  Kadians and Salarris wouldn't need hunter PC as much anymore, just like Kurac doesn't.

Maybe the benefits of these centers could be contingent on the particular clan or rank, although while the code provides for alterations to cost of objects while buying, I am not sure if they are coded to be able to make provisions for rank - or if it is codedly possible for merchants to buy items at a higher price as a result of the seller being clanned.  Selling, yes... buying, not sure.

[tortall]

Kadians and Salarris wouldn't need hunter PC as much anymore.

From what I recall, those two clans -usually- have a higher number of hunters vs crafters, so.... That would actually encourage the hunters to be independent? Or maybe I'm reading the whole post wrong. It's 7:15 AM.