How to make clans more appealing?

[Delirium]

I had an idea that might help with the supply/demand breakdown. What if merchant house storage halls had a quartermaster NPC that hunters and crafters utilized?

You could still have some stockpiles of coded goods, but instead of unused things piling up, they get sold to this NPC, whose inventory is frequently depleted to reflect virtual demand. The NPC would pay VERY little, but there would be no markup for buyback, either. This would help give the productive hunters some drinking money, in effect making the clan pay a baseline which active, productive PCs can augment by being useful to the House. If there is a material that crafters need that isn't in the storage room, the NPC might have it.

I'm sure there's kinks that could be worked out but it sure seems easier to implement.

[Synthesis]

Man, some of you sound like you are so bad at business.  No wonder you have such a terrible time playing GMH leaders.  Maybe try sticking to the pure politicking roles?

Game economy is not modelled on the real world or anything so what's that matter?

Being good at business is all about knowing the rules, knowing people, and using that knowledge to get money.  Doesn't matter if the economy is real or fictional.  Some of these posts show a -remarkable- lack of understanding of basic principles of human behavior, not to mention the constraints of the gameworld.

I'm not going to expand upon it, because if you suck at playing the game, it makes it that much easier for me to pwn you.

Which is all to say that maybe--just maybe--the game isn't broken.  Maybe you're just bad at it.

[Delirium]

I don't think it's very helpful to come in and make sweeping statements that essentially sum up as: "Haha, noobs."

This is, ideally, a thread for discussion and trying to come up with ideas to make clan life more attractive in the long run, not for showing off how good you are at exploiting things.

[Lizzie]

I had an idea that might help with the supply/demand breakdown. What if merchant house storage halls had a quartermaster NPC that hunters and crafters utilized?

You could still have some stockpiles of coded goods, but instead of unused things piling up, they get sold to this NPC, whose inventory is frequently depleted to reflect virtual demand. The NPC would pay VERY little, but there would be no markup for buyback, either. This would help give the productive hunters some drinking money, in effect making the clan pay a baseline which active, productive PCs can augment by being useful to the House. If there is a material that crafters need that isn't in the storage room, the NPC might have it.

I'm sure there's kinks that could be worked out but it sure seems easier to implement.

Oh unlimited payout, I'm thinking - no. Unlimited payout = unlimited hunting = depletion of resources. Even if you limit it to 10 per RL day - that means every RL week, 2, 3, 4, 6 hunters will be looking for 70 gurths each. And 70 duskhorns. And 70 skeet, and 70 whatevers. In addition to the independents who might be -attempting- to play more according to the docs and self-limiting to maybe just 10-15 per RL week, in addition to the OTHER clans who have hunters who have no limits, in addition to those independents who do -not- make an effort to self-limit, in addition to the few who inherit apartments with stuff in them and attempt to sell the stuff to cover the next month's rent.

If you do this, you'll have to significantly increase the mob repops. And if you do that, it'll just encourage indies to hunt more, which will ultimately lead to a demand to the staff to increase the NPC merchants' purchasing capacities...and then you're right back to where you started: How to make clans more fun, to encourage more people to join them, since presently, the draws to independent PC play are lacking in clans: freedom to come and go, and income.

[Delirium]

I wasn't thinking unlimited payout, more like how the shops work in Red Storm.

The items would disappear on a random, semi-frequent basis, like they do in regular shops now, except perhaps more often.

[Synthesis]

Who said anything about exploits?  It doesn't take exploits, it takes some basic understanding of what people want, what you're capable of, and how those two things can complement each other.

So, against my better judgment, a bit of advice:  if you aren't giving your hunters bonuses for getting you the crap you need (and your crafters bonuses for crafting the crap you need), and at the same time you're only offering "rock bottom" prices to indies for the crap you need, you're going to fail 100% of the time.  Now, the gameworld might say "you should feel privileged just to -be- an employee of Salarr," but in reality that is going to get you nowhere with respect to motivating people to join and/or stay in your crew.  You have to find out what motivates them, and become actively involved in providing opportunities for them to pursue those motivations.  The same thing applies to attracting indies to your crew.  If you treat every indie as a hostile enemy combatant and tell them more or less to fuck off, you're incurring both a huge hostility cost and a huge opportunity cost.  (Now, if your goal is simply to foment wrath, fine...but don't then go and piss on about how unfair the game is because your primary goal is at odds with whatever you perceive fairness to be.)

[Delirium]

Now that I can agree with. One of the reasons Shatuka even joined Kurac was because Danu cultivated her as an independant who would bring him stuff.

Imagine what would have happened if he just told her to fuck off?

[Synthesis]

Personally, I think the unappealingness of clans has zero to do with the economy at all, except maybe for relative noobs to the game.

For vets and middle-tier players, my supposition is that skillgain is the primary driving force against joining clans.  As I've said elsewhere (even though Staff offered some sort of cryptic rebuttal that flies entirely in the face of 17 years of experience playing this game), sparring is largely useless for combat skillgain, and clans offer very, very little opportunity for training anything beyond crafting and basic combat skills.

If you want to make clans more appealing, you all should stop twaddling on about the economy and offer some suggestions about how pickpockets, burglars, assassins, and rangers can more easily "level up" in a clan environment.

[Riev]

So far as Hunters in GMHs, I've thought for a long time now that the GMHs need to have a "Merchant House Hunter" pool of resources, rather than sponsoring their own. Like, if you're contracted as a Hunter, you now hunt (and train) with EVERYONE in the Houses. Only after you've proven yourself, do you get the option to Life Swear to the House you want. Instant interaction. MORE interaction. More plots to backstab that annoying Kuraci Agent because you paid a Contracted Hunter to Lifeswear and poison his steak.


So far as Synth's posts, I have to agree. Boredom kills more GMH Hunters, more Noble Partisans, more employees in general. People inherently want to skillgain. They want their skills higher, they want to be more codedly useful. People go out to hunt, to get those skills up, and often times end up getting womped for it. As a leader, you have to figure out what people want, and give it to them. Unfortunately, a Leader PC isn't ALWAYS on when his minions are, and sometimes all it takes is "contact salarri.agent" ... No? Oh, well I'm going to go see if I can find a scrab out in th- OH MY GOD THREE MEKS AND A BABY.

[Delirium]

Skilling up is all well and good, and I agree, part of the problem. There is no single magic bullet fix.

I think it's difficult to deny that the economy of the game (or the lack of it) is a factor, though.

Like it or not, for better or worse, the game environment shifted when apartments became more plentiful and automated. Before that, most PCs had no way of storing large amounts of items unless they joined a clan, or they had to go through a lot of effort to track down a Nenyuki. Nowadays, being an independant is far more economically and socially attractive (plus, shared bunkroom vs private mudsexing grounds? I wonder which will win). Clans, meanwhile, have remained largely the same.

[Harmless]

I really like the idea of making loaded items craftable. I didn't know this was such a problem for high-end ingredients. The overall skill level of both our crafters and hunters on the whole is going up, up, up, so adding more recipes to take advantage of the highest-tier crafters and hunters is a grrreeeeeeeeeeaaaat idea, and is as close to a magic bullet as I've seen discussed here.

As for other ideas, political changes, who your enemies are, etc... I think can be resolved in game as is, without staff intervention, just staff support. People who have discontent with GMH would be wise to read through some of the posts in this thread that have bolded lines of text!

[Lizzie]

Skilling up is all well and good, and I agree, part of the problem. There is no single magic bullet fix.

I think it's difficult to deny that the economy of the game (or the lack of it) is a factor, though.

Like it or not, for better or worse, the game environment shifted when apartments became more plentiful and automated. Before that, most PCs had no way of storing large amounts of items unless they joined a clan, or they had to go through a lot of effort to track down a Nenyuki. Nowadays, being an independant is far more economically and socially attractive (plus, shared bunkroom vs private mudsexing grounds? I wonder which will win). Clans, meanwhile, have remained largely the same.

Agreed on the apartment issue. Playing a Nenyuk agent though - it's a HUGE responsibility. Especially since IIRC, dozens of keys, and everyone wanted at least one duplicate, and they had to be "hand-flagged" by the staff, and you had to worry about getting ganked just so someone could steal all the keys - which would (again, IIRC) result in the staff making the thief give them up because one nobody new player with a lucky backstab shop on his 1-day character should -not- be running around with the keys to every apartment in two cities, no matter how "realistic" it might be. It's game-breaking.

If there were some way for Nenyuk to handle keys differently, I think this'd be awesome. Maybe - continue to have a doorman at each building. And each doorman has *virtual* keys - just like they do now when you walk past. But the Nenyuk agent can demand any key to any apartment she wants, and typing LIST will see what's available AND who is renting which place. Make it so that the players who are *not* Nenyuk, don't have access to the list, and can't get keys unless the Nenyuki has authorized them to do so (such as with the "rent with amos" command).

That way, the Nenyuki is now in control of all the rentals, but doesn't have to carry around all the keys to all the apartments in the cities, so the game-breaking situation of some random noob thief or backstabber taking all those keys is no longer a thing.

Maybe the Nenyuki has her own apartment somewhere, and carries her OWN key to her OWN place..in which case, her key is open season just like everyone else's.

AND - once this is done..

THEN give GMHs just a couple of private rooms right outside their compound gates (similar to what Kadius has in Allanak) that's reserved for the privileged 1 or 2 PCs who have earned the right to a rent-free private, modest (1 room with a built-in wardrobe, bed, shelving built into the wall) apartment with its own entry to the road.

[BleakOne]

I don't really think Kadius should ICly be forced to buy from independants, even valuable gems, when they have their own workforce to gather them. Why pay for resources twice?

[Fujikoma]

Though I've mostly remained silent in this thread and let the adults talk, I found myself compelled to comment on Synthesis's posts (the ones past "Hahaha, newbs, pwned). I understand practically nothing about economical matters and such, but as far as people matters... I think his posts and Delirium's Shatuka example hit the nail on the head when it comes to matters of "my purposes are cross-aligned with those of this individual". I have witnessed plenty of behavior OOC and IC that, in my eyes, has not really made sense.

Conflict doesn't have to be "always on", nor does it have to be black and white, all or nothing. Some actions may look like you're hurting your own goals, but I find usually these perspectives come from the assumption that a series of short term gains equals long term gains, so the bigger the gain in the short term the more long term gain you can expect, and the other way around for loss. I'm not going to throw in a koan about two monks raising the shades, but instead say that some actions, which may seem to do nothing but benefit those with purposes different from your own, can actually net you a bigger reward than always being that me-first, why should I help you kind of person. I hate to keep coming back to it, because I know very little about what game theory is and have not bothered to look into it much beyond one tiny thing, but the reiterated Prisoner's Dilemma kind of highlights a very real issue when dealing with other people. I'm not qualified to explain it, but I think there are some who would do very well to look into it.

EDIT: A thought I just had while taking a restroom break. The first part of a chess game is not a pawn move, it's getting the pieces out of the box. (though chess is a very limited conflict taking place between two sides on a mere sixty-four squares with very basic rules)

[Synthesis]

I don't really think Kadius should ICly be forced to buy from independants, even valuable gems, when they have their own workforce to gather them. Why pay for resources twice?

You aren't "forced" to.  The question is whether or not your hunters could be doing something even more valuable than spending their time grebbing through rocks.  You might be saving 'sid on the front end, but costing yourself and your crew a lot of opportunity on the back end.  Not every GMH crew has 2 rangers and a warrior to go out and greb shit.  If you've got a pickpocket, a burglar, and a warrior on board...sending them out to find rare resources by foraging is going to be an exercise in futility, and possibly an exercise in fatality.  Besides, if the resources cost more, you can just charge more for the damn end product, or find some other way to recover that cost.  Or if you really can't cover the cost of the raw goods, and have absolutely no further use for the indie in question, just don't buy the damn goods and go on your way.

It's kind of astounding to me that people would even be bitching about buying things from independents, because every good GMH trader I've run into over the years had absolutely no problems with it whatsoever.  It also seems strange that people are, on the one hand, crying about lack of interaction when you're in a clan, and on the other hand proposing that you -not- interact with people who want to interact with you (i.e. indie traders).  You can't simultaneously have a GMH be entirely self-sufficient -and- promote more interaction with the rest of the playerbase.

[Fujikoma]

Not to mention that every bit of raw material you buy for rock-bottom prices is a piece of material that never ends up in the hands of indie merchants for rock bottom prices, just a thought.

[Synthesis]

I've never paid rock-bottom prices for anything as a trader, because it's a stupid way to do business with people.  I always pay 25-50% higher than the NPC shops, because as a crafter with haggle, you can turn a frickin' piece of shit scrab guts and a branch into a 300 'sid bow, so who gives a shit if you're paying 100 'sid for a single branch?  You still make a damn killing off it.

If you go around overtly screwing people, they eventually figure out that you're screwing them, and they stop trading with you.  If someone risked their ass to bring you a bag of branches all the way from Tuluk to Allanak, you better be willing to pay for that shit, or you're a giant ass, and you're going to get treated like the giant ass you are.  If you're in a GMH and you have hunters to bring your shit in for you, happy days.  But if you don't, because your crew is barebones or whatever, don't be a tool and act like you're too good to pay when you don't have the personnel to get it done.  And maybe, just maybe, that indie fellow will decide to sign up with you once he branches parry and maxes archery, because he remembers those days when you were paying him 200 'sid for a bag of branches, and the time you cut him a deal for 25% off his first bow.

[Desertman]

Why has this become a discussion about making Houses buy stuff from indies?



This should be a discussion about how to make Houses use the things their own employees bring them and make for them in a realistic internal economy so there is a realistic IC supply and demand dynamic between the virtual House, the non-virtual employees, and finally the non-virtual customers as they relate to the supply provided by the previously mentioned non-virtual employees.

No indies. Indies shouldn't be part of the discussion.

(Also not a discussion where everyone tries to prove they are better at playing the game, because I get the feeling it is going there.)

[Synthesis]

If what you think is the problem (i.e. what the discussion should be about) is really only perceived to be a problem because of lack of imagination, hard work, and business acumen of the people playing the roles...then it isn't really a problem.  That's my point.  People are complaining about things that they are 100% in the driver's seat to change, but instead they want Staff to come in and change the rules because they're too stupid, lazy, or unimaginative to figure it out for themselves.

[Riev]

I would like to go back to my past idea, and make Crafting in a Merchant or Noble House more appealing. And I don't mean Partisans in Tuluk, I mean full fledged employees with Clan-Craft recipes.


Very very simply, make any non-clanned Crafters able to Mastercraft but with no bonuses at all. Sure, they can make that sword for you, but unless they're clanned Salarri, that sword is just like any other sword. Only a Salarri gets +2 damage, or can have higher crits, or something.

That way, Merchant Classes will seek out clans, if only to make the best items. Even if you're a Borsail Crafter, you should damn well have the expertise to make a truly damaging warhammer, right? Moreso than some Merchant that has been making weapons since he was three, but has never had formal teaching?

Thoughts?

[Desertman]

If what you think is the problem (i.e. what the discussion should be about) is really only perceived to be a problem because of lack of imagination, hard work, and business acumen of the people playing the roles...then it isn't really a problem.  That's my point.  People are complaining about things that they are 100% in the driver's seat to change, but instead they want Staff to come in and change the rules because they're too stupid, lazy, or unimaginative to figure it out for themselves.

Seeing as how none of that has anything to do with my recommendation for a change, I will assume you didn't mean me.

[ShaLeah]

Why has this become a discussion about making Houses buy stuff from indies?

It hasn't. We just got distracted for a bit.  Back on course!

At the very least this thread does show that there are thoughts on changing clans to be more popular. Most people have valid points, I liked 7DVs thoughts a lot. Making just a couple of those changed would make then more appealing.


I also have to say that personally when I play in a clan I am more apt to stay in said clan if there is reward and recognition for a job well done so all you leaders who give bonuses on a constant basis as thank yous? You fucking rock! My characters are easily bought by gifts! Keep'em comin'!

[Desertman]

I would like to go back to my past idea, and make Crafting in a Merchant or Noble House more appealing. And I don't mean Partisans in Tuluk, I mean full fledged employees with Clan-Craft recipes.


Very very simply, make any non-clanned Crafters able to Mastercraft but with no bonuses at all. Sure, they can make that sword for you, but unless they're clanned Salarri, that sword is just like any other sword. Only a Salarri gets +2 damage, or can have higher crits, or something.

That way, Merchant Classes will seek out clans, if only to make the best items. Even if you're a Borsail Crafter, you should damn well have the expertise to make a truly damaging warhammer, right? Moreso than some Merchant that has been making weapons since he was three, but has never had formal teaching?

Thoughts?

The idea is to make being a House employee more attractive, which doesn't necessarily equal making playing any indie crappy.

This takes something away from indies, but really doesn't "add" anything to being a House employee, because House employees can already mastercraft good items if they get to the necessary level of skill.

[Kismetic]

Very very simply, make any non-clanned Crafters able to Mastercraft but with no bonuses at all. Sure, they can make that sword for you, but unless they're clanned Salarri, that sword is just like any other sword. Only a Salarri gets +2 damage, or can have higher crits, or something.

In my experience, it already operates this way.  People just buy mastercrafts from indies because ...  actually, I don't know why they do.

[long live miley cyrus]

If people could stop trying to shove every single pc I make into clans that are supposedly exclusive and hard to get into, or letting me in, and then suddenly shelving me off to the Byn or some other clan for some reason without any input on my part, clans would look a lot nicer. Also, most clans are high-end, high status, and I need my grit and roughness, harsh desert.

I dunno. Perhaps I've just had bad luck with clans, but 9/10 of my pcs are indies, and usually the 1/10 is either in a low-class clan or not planning to live very long