If Allanak ever becomes the only place in the game to play a character in socially outside of karma or app-in roles, I will very likely quit playing.

I know that there is a big push to get more people to play in Allanak, but I'm just not that interested in playing every character in Allanak. Sorry. The player base is too small and running into the same long-lived characters over and over again gets old.

That goes for any social hub. We need choices. When our characters die, we shouldn't be forced to play around all of the same characters all over again.

Quote from: Lizzie on September 19, 2020, 11:38:12 AM

Quote from: Pariah on September 18, 2020, 05:53:23 PM

Back when we would have 60-70 players on nightly, it was cool to have folks in Allanak, Luirs, whatever.

But now that it tends to be 20-30ish, it needs to consolidate.

PRETTY MUCH THE TRUTH

I think the honest actual problem is Luirs.
Do you want politics? Luirs has that. Do you want to hunt? Luirs has all the merchant houses, housing, and access to all the goods everyone wants. Do you want to be a burlgar? There's fairly easy to open apartments.

I, in an OOC sense, would be all for some sort of plot that destroys Luirs for the GMH, and turns it into a tribal trading post that is maintained by a council of Tribal heads.  This would give TRIBALS a good base of roleplay. GMH already have politics up to their necks in Allanak. And requiring all the GMH Leader pc's to get together every time a Garrison Captain dies can prove to be a pain in the ass that limits things due to ooc concerns.

This Tribal Outpost would also allow some of the more aggressive Tribes to open back up. SLK, Benjari, ect. Because now there will be a tribal outpost with actual players in it (sorry blackwing) and politics for them to push their wars with.

It's very clear that numbers declined steeply following Tuluk's closure. Up until then, weekly logins had been in the high 200s and sometimes reaching 300. Years of stable numbers. Then Tuluk closed and in a span of five years, the weekly numbers dwindled from 280+ to 160ish. While the data doesn't spell it out for us what caused it, I think we're all wise enough to know that erasing one of the game's two city-states without any sort of follow-up is the reason.

Quote
April 29 to May 6, 2013
286 Unique Logins

May 5 to May 12, 2014
264 Unique Logins

April 27 to May 4, 2015   ---- Tuluk closes April 27th
276 Unique Logins

April 25 to May 2, 2016
220 Unique Logins

April 24 to May 1, 2017
227 Unique Logins

April 23 to April 30, 2018
198 Unique Logins

April 22 to April 29, 2019
200 Unique Logins

Then we arrive at 2020. As we all know, Covid-19 was a big upset for anything that concerns online demographics as large swaths of people across the world were suddenly home all day. Now, before Covid really hit and the lockdowns had yet to take hold, numbers were still on a clear downward trend:

QuoteJanuary 20 to January 27, 2020
190 Unique Logins

February 17 to February 24, 2020
177 Unique Logins

Then the lockdowns hit and things start looking up again, for self-evident reasons:

QuoteApril 20 to April 27, 2020
211 Unique Logins

April 27 to May 4, 2020
211 Unique Logins

As we know, there was a month or so when Armageddon was hitting peaks in the 60s and 70s. But not much was done around that time to actually capitalize on this spike and draw people in, so numbers dwindled again:

QuoteMay 25 to June 1, 2020
190 Unique Logins

June 8 to June 15, 2020
188 Unique Logins

And then even as we begin to approach present day, numbers continue to nosedive:

QuoteJuly 6 to July 13, 2020
174 Unique Logins

August 3 to August 10, 2020
162 Unique Logins

August 31 to September 7, 2020
162 Unique Logins

These are alarming numbers, and while they may compel one to wish for consolidation, it's undeniable that the decline began when Tuluk was closed down... in the name of consolidation. Although the cynics among us might say that the true reason behind the massive loss of players was not merely the fact that Tuluk closed but also that very little was done to enrich the game's remaining start locations, I'm more inclined to think that the sheer loss of real estate within the game was what caused it. It just became a smaller, poorer game.

At this point, what can even be shut down? You can't delete Luir's from the map, it's right in the middle of everything and all roads lead to the outpost, as it were. Red Storm is also hard to do away with, it's essentially a suburb of Allanak at this stage. Tribes? Well, how many are even left anymore? Three? I suppose we could get rid of Morin's without stepping on very many toes, but would that have much of an effect on anything?

Consolidation by content culling is not the key to this game's recovery. It needs something that brings people back and keeps them logged in, not something that removes character concepts and playable areas. That was attempted and it was a gigantic failure.

I totally respect people want to play how they want to play, I know I struggle to fit into the roles I sometimes find myself in, be them social/job or location specific.

Maybe the solution is like someone said earlier, with Who displaying the general local of folks, Allanak and surroundings, Luirs and surroundings.

But that does require a shit load of trust that folks who literally play the game to cut up people with bone swords aren't going to metagame and go hunting folks because 15 are around Allanak for instance.

I think that's the challenge right?  You want to play what's fun and enjoyable, but you have to play it within the established documentation.  So creating a desert elf that runs the world is fun as shit, but not really following the lore of the game.

I agree I used to like when there were all sorts of desert elves, red fangs and all that shit.  But I don't know how you add more to the game without increasing numbers first.  You could always add more and -hope- word of mouth reaches old and new players, but I don't know.

If it was easy someone would have already done it.

Quote from: Greve on September 19, 2020, 12:37:54 PM
It's very clear that numbers declined steeply following Tuluk's closure. Up until then, weekly logins had been in the high 200s and sometimes reaching 300. Years of stable numbers. Then Tuluk closed and in a span of five years, the weekly numbers dwindled from 280+ to 160ish. While the data doesn't spell it out for us what caused it, I think we're all wise enough to know that erasing one of the game's two city-states without any sort of follow-up is the reason.

Quote
April 29 to May 6, 2013
286 Unique Logins

May 5 to May 12, 2014
264 Unique Logins

April 27 to May 4, 2015   ---- Tuluk closes April 27th
276 Unique Logins

April 25 to May 2, 2016
220 Unique Logins

April 24 to May 1, 2017
227 Unique Logins

April 23 to April 30, 2018
198 Unique Logins

April 22 to April 29, 2019
200 Unique Logins

Then we arrive at 2020. As we all know, Covid-19 was a big upset for anything that concerns online demographics as large swaths of people across the world were suddenly home all day. Now, before Covid really hit and the lockdowns had yet to take hold, numbers were still on a clear downward trend:

QuoteJanuary 20 to January 27, 2020
190 Unique Logins

February 17 to February 24, 2020
177 Unique Logins

Then the lockdowns hit and things start looking up again, for self-evident reasons:

QuoteApril 20 to April 27, 2020
211 Unique Logins

April 27 to May 4, 2020
211 Unique Logins

As we know, there was a month or so when Armageddon was hitting peaks in the 60s and 70s. But not much was done around that time to actually capitalize on this spike and draw people in, so numbers dwindled again:

QuoteMay 25 to June 1, 2020
190 Unique Logins

June 8 to June 15, 2020
188 Unique Logins

And then even as we begin to approach present day, numbers continue to nosedive:

QuoteJuly 6 to July 13, 2020
174 Unique Logins

August 3 to August 10, 2020
162 Unique Logins

August 31 to September 7, 2020
162 Unique Logins

These are alarming numbers, and while they may compel one to wish for consolidation, it's undeniable that the decline began when Tuluk was closed down... in the name of consolidation. Although the cynics among us might say that the true reason behind the massive loss of players was not merely the fact that Tuluk closed but also that very little was done to enrich the game's remaining start locations, I'm more inclined to think that the sheer loss of real estate within the game was what caused it. It just became a smaller, poorer game.

At this point, what can even be shut down? You can't delete Luir's from the map, it's right in the middle of everything and all roads lead to the outpost, as it were. Red Storm is also hard to do away with, it's essentially a suburb of Allanak at this stage. Tribes? Well, how many are even left anymore? Three?

Consolidation by content culling is not the key to this game's recovery. It needs something that brings people back and keeps them logged in, not something that removes character concepts and playable areas. That was attempted and it was a gigantic failure.

Not the loss of real estate. The loss of a unique style of roleplay, with unique politics. The loss of force stored longtime nobles, the loss of about 1/3rd of the population's plots. That single move pissed off so many players. Not just the Tuluk centric ones like I was.

I don't believe we disagree, if you really think about it.

I am also in the side that agrees if we opened up more player-friendly places to play, players will be able to jump back into the game in another part of the world and start a different story once their current character dies.

It is very tough to go from a Guilder, to a Merchant House Employee, to a Noble, if you're mostly stuck in the same city playing with the same characters.

I don't think it's as simple as that. I think it's the fact that this game was, once upon a time, built wholly upon the concept of playing City X vs. City Y. We can all sit here for ages and wax nostalgic about the witless theories of game design, but the fact remains that ArmageddonMUD was a far better game back when it still adhered to the principles upon which it was founded: two city-states at war, whether that was hot or cold--and even when it was cold, it felt like it could turn hot at any moment. This is what was lost when one of the two was closed, and while I never really loved to play in Tuluk, its existence was just so goddamn important to the game as a whole that its loss was ruinous.

I played my fair share in Tuluk, even though I didn't like the bards and all that nonsense, I did like the surroundings of Tuluk and it does feel like a cheap version when you play in Morin's.

I would be totally fine with Tuluk opening again, but I'm not sure why, it seems like staff is totally against it.

More things to play means people play more...it is that simple.

Especially for people that have played longer.  Back when Tuluk was open along with more human and elf tribes, undertuluk, several different things for gemmers to do like the council etc. It was easier to keep excited about the current and next PC. Because Often even if you were on PC #40 in 20 years there was still clans and places you might have never played. Or maybe only played once or twice and the last time was 5 years ago.

Today, for people with half the play time I have there is likely no place/clan they have not played MANY times over. And what is worse is, for many, who have PCs that last for 90 days RL or so, those places and clans could, in many cases have been played in less then a year past.

But now...I can play Bynner #12, Militia #5, Oash gemmed #4, unclanned gemmed #6, rogue mage #10, merchant house #7, and indy unknown number.

No chance to play Anyali or dunestalkers, any of the northside rinth elf tribes, Many of the Tuluki clans and several other things that are not public.

And that is not even talking about things closed even earlier like Gith and halflings etc.

I have said many many times over the years, remove options and you remove players...it is always the case.

Adding more clans/locations gives people an excuse to keep playing after they die. It spreads us out but keeps us playing. And any sensible player who knows how to create roleplay hooks will still find ways to interact with foreign agencies.

Adding more clans is where I'm fine, but urg, it creates niches and spreads out the playerbase thin. That's my problem because I'm mainly a social-political player. I need to socialize.

Nak should reach out and dick with EVERYONE. Add another Templar to head up a Tribal Harassment Ministry. Keep everyone politicking and involved by constantly meddling in the pettiest shit.

Quote from: Barsook on September 19, 2020, 09:13:54 PM
Adding more clans is where I'm fine, but urg, it creates niches and spreads out the playerbase thin. That's my problem because I'm mainly a social-political player. I need to socialize.

Unless your idea of socializing is talk about the weather, other pointless polite conversation and witty reparte about nothing at all, or picking fights with elf #473, you need topics of interest, deals to make, politics to play. That's all well and good until you realize you're playing the same politics with the same group of people over and over and over again and nothing is changing other than the sdescs of the people you're politicking with.

That's why the more, the better. Your Oashi would probably be more interesting TO YOU - as the player of the Oashi - if it wasn't always catty remarks against the current Borsail Lady, or poking fun again at the lowly Fale Lord. If you sent your minions northward to seek out a precious thing - only to return with talk of soldiers chasing them and now suddenly you have someone calling herself Chosen Lady in your mind making threats...

you can do all that while sitting at the bar. Socio-politic your way into fame and fortune, create wars, participate in wars, end wars - do spectacular things without lifting a sword or crafting a single pair of silky black braies.

Some of my favorite roles IG over the years have been Noble/Merchant guard/hunter type PCs.  In these type roles there are not only opportunities for day to day type work, but also conflict between noble and merchant houses which involved commoner PCs of a diverse set of roles. 

For example, I've had, like I'm sure many others, a few PCs play in the Winrothol Cavaliers.  In that role, your PC would train, patrol the lands around the City, hunt a few critters for materials to craft arrows for the unit or make a bit of coin on the side.  All the while, Tenneshi PCs are doing similar things, and every now and then those PCs step on each others toes.  It's not as if the Cavaliers were bursting at the seams with other PCs either, some times only having one other PC to regularly interact with in House.

This sort of gameplay existed in the south as well, with the Tor Scorpions, the Borsail Wyverns, the Oashi Guard, etc.  Let's not forget GMH hunter crews, which provide similar opportunities.  While the general idea of day to day work and opportunities for conflict rang true for all of them, each individual clan RP'd very differently from one another.  Tor Scorpions are a bit more militaristic, while the Oashi Guard just looks fly walking into the Gaj in the black and azure while sipping on some Ocotillo spirits.

Anyway, when I heard that Tuluk was shutting down, I assumed that we would get to keep the diverse set of noble/gmh house roles just all in the same city.  This sounds great on paper.  A larger concentration of PCs in various different Houses, operating on a smaller grid on the map.  However, it certainly has not played out that way.  I'm hesitant to blame the loss of the Tuluk v Allanak trope, as I always found the bulk of that conflict to exist practically virtually on how one uses the game world.  We haven't lost the ability to include Tuluk virtually in our PCs' development.  However, I do point my finger at the the focus on independent PCs and the shrinking of all commoner roles to aides and crafters only in the noble and GMHs respectively. 

How is it now that a Noble House might entertain an unaffiliated lowborn at its estate in the Noble Quarters without a house guard escort?  Get the militia to do it? That doesn't make any sense.  Who's making trips out to the Oash estate to keep the spider population held back?   We are to assume this happens virtually, but I do believe there are lots of lost opportunities here, and what we are left with is self interested PCs looking for a way to pay the rent.

Anyway, TLDR, my suggestion is to open back up the diverse commoner employment opportunities in the noble and merchant Houses, and pull back on forcing nobles and merchants to rely on independent PCs.  I get the idea, but there was a lot of purpose in a PCs life lost in implementing it.

Edited to add:

Also, never had a problem seeing long lived PCs through several characters.  Furthermore, it was kind of cool seeing them react differently in different situations.  Prime examples for me include Raleris Winrothol, and Giuseppe, the Salarr hunter turned Oashi guard.

I agree with Spider, some of my favorite roles were old school Salarr and Kadius hunter PCs with a lead hunter etc.

This whole forcing of reliance on indy folks for materials and not hiring anything but crafters and aides is super forced.  If Salarr or Kadius was a real company they wouldn't outsource that stuff, it's cheap and better for them to have those guys be in house.

I think that change could be one way to put more focus on GMH employment and maybe fix some of the issues without much work.

I'm not trying to contradict myself because I forgot about clan roles and I do agree what is said. Roles would better diversify than new clans. It's would be, for sure, less work as it doesn't really require many rooms to be written and built (sorry builders if that's not true).

Also, these roles do add the realism that is kind of lacking in game.

So I tend to play lots of hunter type roles, even my magickers are stalkers first and magickers second.

I will say under the new "buy from indy folks" system I've made literally shittons of coin from selling to Kadius, Salarr and Kurac.

However, I often thought that was broken as shit personally.  I'm just some random dude out there killing scrab, drov beetles, jakhals etc etc and I'm making thousands upon thousands of sid that I can't spend fast enough.

Top tier Salarr Armor, top tier weapons, bow etc.  So that's great while you're outfitting yourself to be Amos the badass hunter, but once you get all that, you have to actively look for coin sinks.  I remember one of my older guys was literally paying folks to do VNPC things.  Clean outside his apartment, he would leave his boots outside the door to be shined by X rinther guy and pay him X amount per month to do it.

So having the GMH buy from indy folks is great in idea, but broken as well.

I don't honestly know the fix, but it sure isn't what we got.

I believe closing the merchant house hunters and also creation of the Garrison were horrible things for the game.

The Council isn't fun when you can't get a vote together forever and 3 people can't match times, then you get staff animating and pretty much saying you need a vote to use the garrison for anything related to the outpost as a GMH leader.. So you use the Byn, ignore the garrison and the poor people in the garrison get left out.

Quote from: Spiceoflife on September 20, 2020, 09:29:39 AM
I believe closing the merchant house hunters and also creation of the Garrison were horrible things for the game.

The Council isn't fun when you can't get a vote together forever and 3 people can't match times, then you get staff animating and pretty much saying you need a vote to use the garrison for anything related to the outpost as a GMH leader.. So you use the Byn, ignore the garrison and the poor people in the garrison get left out.

I touched on this before, but the above is the truth. On paper, the council is a great idea. There are problems though. Needing to rely on the Byn to move the members to votes means matching up another groups playtimes on top of everything. There are ways we can mitigate this, f the not completely IC ways, the easiest is to bring back the double merchant house roles. Kadius and Salarr used to have 1 family member in Tuluk and Allanak. This brought on a lot of inner house politicing and rp. I think each GMH needs an Agent role in Luirs, to handle votes and politics. And a Merchant role in Allanak, to handle orders.

And that's still ignoring my ooc idea of somehow, some way, giving it to the tribals. (Kurac would assasinate me for having this idea, but hey. I think it's the best idea)

Quote from: Fredd on September 20, 2020, 12:06:49 PM
I think each GMH needs an Agent role in Luirs, to handle votes and politics. And a Merchant role in Allanak, to handle orders.

+1

Quote from: Fredd on September 20, 2020, 12:06:49 PM

Quote from: Spiceoflife on September 20, 2020, 09:29:39 AM
I believe closing the merchant house hunters and also creation of the Garrison were horrible things for the game.

The Council isn't fun when you can't get a vote together forever and 3 people can't match times, then you get staff animating and pretty much saying you need a vote to use the garrison for anything related to the outpost as a GMH leader.. So you use the Byn, ignore the garrison and the poor people in the garrison get left out.

I touched on this before, but the above is the truth. On paper, the council is a great idea. There are problems though. Needing to rely on the Byn to move the members to votes means matching up another groups playtimes on top of everything. There are ways we can mitigate this, f the not completely IC ways, the easiest is to bring back the double merchant house roles. Kadius and Salarr used to have 1 family member in Tuluk and Allanak. This brought on a lot of inner house politicing and rp. I think each GMH needs an Agent role in Luirs, to handle votes and politics. And a Merchant role in Allanak, to handle orders.

And that's still ignoring my ooc idea of somehow, some way, giving it to the tribals. (Kurac would assasinate me for having this idea, but hey. I think it's the best idea)

I agree that the promotion up to Agent should come with more power (Council Seat) and perhaps more isolation (played in Luirs). If the GMH had three schemy fucks laying around Luirs calling council meetings all the time, it'd be great.

I think the other side of it is Council Votes should be a regular ongoing RPT. Every other Friday or Monday, whenever there is the most overlap of PCs schedules. Playing a GMH council member was frustrating for me, because it would take 1-2 months to get a vote to happen, and during the meeting, about 3/4 of the issues required more deliberation, so good luck actually voting or reaching a consensus.

I also think Staff can/should step in to send an emissary for a House that can't have a PC present, instead of delaying the vote indefinitely because Kadian Y can't be at any of the meetings. It's totally probable that House representatives either don't vote on issues they don't know or care about, or are out voted by people who are passionate (and richly passionate) about the issue. I think this would foment more active change in Luirs and the world via the Council.

I think Council members should also be able to send representatives in their stead, rather than the draconic rules of 'Must be a GMH Family Member/On the Council to be there'. It absolutely makes sense that a person trusted by that Council member can sit for them if they can't make a meeting. It's not like it's a Bynner Runner, it's typically a near-lifesworn commoner member of the House who has that Council member's confidences and trust. I think this would also help with scheduling issues endemic to the Council.

Couldn't we say the same for the Senate as a regular RPT?

Quote from: Barsook on September 20, 2020, 01:09:10 PM
Couldn't we say the same for the Senate as a regular RPT?

Anecdotally I suppose we could. I'm not involved with the Senate/PCs related to the Senate and never have, so I can only speculate. But I do think it would provide focus to Noble/Templar/GMH PCs other than interpersonal drama and plots. It's world-moving (if not world shaking) and any progression aside from personal plots is a good thing for the health of the game, in my opinion.

I don't think Senate meetings should be that regular, it reduces the weight of it. Once every IG year or every other IG year would translate to every 1.5-3 months (EDIT: Sorry, did my math wrong), which seems fair. I'd say every other year provides enough distance and time between the last one, new members that might be around, and prep time for PCs. Can't speak to Staff prep time or workload, it's likely a lot to wrangle.

I think every other IC year is enough distance between or maybe every five IC years which is closer to half a year in real life. *Shrugs*