The Allanak Problem

[Dar]

Agreed.


Templars are supposed to be oppressive. That is their job. But unfortunately for PC population, if you overoppress, they'll move out of templar reach.  Technically they'll move to a place that should have less opportunities, less comfort, less protection, less profit, but that is clearly not the case. In fact, the opposite is often true.

Only thing that allanak has is the "world changing plot power". But due to the extended time required for that to have a visible effect, it is often ... Not enough.

[Kialae]

I just want everyone to play with me. :3

[Hauwke]

I just want everyone to play with me. :3

Didn't you stop playing last year?

[Kialae]

Yeah about that...

I realised I didn't want to stop playing. I just wanted to stop participating in the meta. And I know that's funny given I'm on the GDB but well, you haven't seen me posting outside clan boards until now and I'm unlikely to continue.

[roughneck]

You know, way back in the day, Allanak vs Tuluk (and before that, the rebels vs Allanak) was the lick. We didn't have more players (by much), but it was just ... it worked.

I really think that with fewer players (and really, in a way, even if we had more players), we could do away with Allanak, Tuluk, and in a way, this new version of Luir's, and have a really interesting system that would spread people out, create conflict and travel and a reason for the Byn, etc.

Merchants are the lifeblood of any setting, and so shouldn't they be the real powers? What if Kadius returned to Morin's, Kurac retained their Outpost, and Salaar claimed Red Storm?

What if Tek shut down Allanak just like Muk did Tuluk?

What if the new story of Armageddon was the story of three (four if you want to include Nenyuk) merchant houses and their war for survival in a world where there was no Tek or Muk to kibosh the huge threats? There would be military and hunter roles in each clan, crafter roles in each clan, "noblish" roles in each clan. There'd be inter-clan conflict, particularly for higher ranks, and there'd be conflict between clans in the way of both politics and resources, because they would both need (or want) crafted things from each other, and they would need resources that the other clan desired.

And the Byn could profit off all of them, reinforcing the low combative moments for each clan, centered from the fort.

You could even reopen Nunyek and set them as a sort of neutral entity of sorts, serving as value holders (banking) and also intermediators between the clans in this new system.

And then there would be the tribes, and the big baddies, and maybe even select moments when either Muk or Tek's forces made appearances.

I dunno. That's what I'd do.

This is how I've seen the way forward for the game.

Let Tek and Muk kill each other in a face off.

A few small settlements spring up that players actually have stake and responsibility to defend/build. The conflict that does exist with 'nak right now is kind of boring because the gameworld truth is that Tek could end it at any time.

[triste]

Maybe whoever gets this new Templar rolecall can fix Allanak! A lot of the ideas here are one a Templar can act on.

Also hi and <3s for Kialae.

[Lotion]

But unfortunately for PC population, if you [templars] overoppress, they'll move out of templar reach.

I can think of one recent example of a templar that made me not want to play in Allanak.

Apartments in Luir's are as bad for Allanak as apartments in Red Storm are or as bad as apartments in Morin's would be. Apartments are as bad for the game as any other private save room. We need more "public" save rooms like in the Rinth (And there are a lot of save rooms in unexpected spots!)

[triste]

But unfortunately for PC population, if you [templars] overoppress, they'll move out of templar reach.

I can think of one recent example of a templar that made me not want to play in Allanak.

Apartments in Luir's are as bad for Allanak as apartments in Red Storm are or as bad as apartments in Morin's would be. Apartments are as bad for the game as any other private save room. We need more "public" save rooms like in the Rinth (And there are a lot of save rooms in unexpected spots!)

The 'rinth could absolutely benefit from having public save rooms, and I would like to add that public save rooms with item persistence rock. There are a few rooms like this in the Northlands which are fantastic for roleplay for various reasons, such as allowing tribals to leave totems and the like. In most cases you don't need to worry about wealth accumulating when it is public, but it is a nice way to hold on to and communicate with trinkets.

[Gentleboy]

Hmm, if that's the case, how would the corpse pile do as a save room? I mean, people loot the stuff from there anyway, but maybe after someone dies or on an anniversary of a death, it would be cool to leave gifts. That would be cool.

[Gentleboy]

Adding on another post:

I'm trying to think of ways to make Allanak feel alive. Feel like a real city. I think something that would help is lanterns on the streets at night, or soldiers holding torches..or something. Being able to move about the main streets (I mean Caravan road mostly) would be cool. Also around the commoner's district since people live there and there should be campfires and what not happening in tents.

Other ideas for Allanak:

More influence in fashion and the changing of the fashion seasons. Repercussions from others if those fashions aren't followed. Like, "Ew, you're still wearing green? That's so Ascending Sun."Yeah, most of that Is RPing shit, but that brings me to a another point.

We need to stop rushing plots, scenes, and rping. I do it, others do it. I get it, it's dawn and we have sitting in the sand between mining to do. It reminds me of why I was so disappointed in students in Art School. They'd rush their homework project and make it look like shit to get to the next 'cooler' project. Only for that one to be rushed and look like shit too. There is no waiting for the good to happen, the miraculous. It happens between ourselves and our characters. We need to realize the time is now. The interactions we have with one another is now. I bet you don't know what your bff's (ig) favorite color is. What their father's name was. What their favorite game as a child was. The more we develop bonds and connections between our characters, the more organic stories will be. There is no penalties in holding back information. If someone asks you something, lie. If someone saw you unsuccessfully sneak and they call you out on it? Fuck the code. Say "I'm breaking in the leather of these new boots, what are you talking about?" We are relying too much on code to do the talking.

Did you know, most skills you can lie about having? You don't need any coded skills to sing, dance, play the drums, play cards, tell stories, decorate, draw (everyone gets draw), become interested in the arts, in fashion, in color. In landscapes. Our characters have an opportunity to be fleshed out and experience a world where we should cut ourselves out of. Yeah, the strip of meat at the bar is easier to just buy and eat than going to a vender. But, doesn't your character get sick of eating the same thing? I think we're letting ourselves down and we can do better. Myself included.

I've realized Allanak is not the problem. The city is what it is. It's us. We've done this. We're too busy trying to be clever and one-up each others jokes to realize our characters are not real characters. They're pull-string dolls with a few quips that we play with. I might make a new post addressing this, trying to instill a new era of positivity and strong writing. I've been lazy and sick for a long time and I'm ending it here. I joined Arm because for years all I wanted was a place where people take the world seriously and are willing to commit to characters. And currently, that's not what I'm getting and that's why I've been so angry about the game. And I feel suffocated. But, I am an escapist and I need this game. I am weak-willed and I will keep coming back. I love reading other people's writing, I love reacting and needing to take a breath in before responding. But, those interactions are few-and-between lately and that's not what I first came to love.

[triste]

Hmm, if that's the case, how would the corpse pile do as a save room? I mean, people loot the stuff from there anyway, but maybe after someone dies or on an anniversary of a death, it would be cool to leave gifts. That would be cool.

Maybe. Not needed when city forage exists to supply that roleplay.

I want to get back to something interesting implied in Lotion's post: that adding content to the 'rinth helps solve the Allanak issue in part. Currently most people have said, "If you dislike Allanak you can just avoid it," but that is not the only option! If you dislike Allanak you can antagonize it from within in the 'Rinth, or just play in the 'Rinth to enjoy a different role. But people aren't doing this so often, why? It's an under-worked on part of the world, the entire east side of the 'Rinth doesn't even have any tribes city elves can app into, etc. But if we showed just the tiniest mote of attention to the 'Rinth people might actually play there, have a good alternative to 'Nak, and by playing in the 'rinth create more plots and action for 'Nak.

And no, a more powerful 'rinth wouldn't necessarily increase the theft you all dread. A well run Guild or gang will have a protection racket so as to profit off crime without having to necessarily commit it. If you don't want stuff stolen, pay for protection. If you steal from people who have protection, you might get whacked and have all your pickings confiscated.

A more playable 'Rinth makes Allanak more playable. It's a win-win idea, so I love it Lotion. An idea that revitalizes Allanak, even if you hate Allanak! It also gets to that excellent cops and robbers post by Nyr someone cited here, in a quite literal way. This proposal is contiguous with the line of logic staff have laid out themselves.

[Gentleboy]

I'm all for giving more power to the Rinth, but, the relationship with Allanak is sorta symbiotic.  They both need each other. If one is not strong, the other isn't going to be able to rise to quality conflicts either.

[triste]

I'm all for giving more power to the Rinth, but, the relationship with Allanak is sorta symbiotic.  They both need each other. If one is not strong, the other isn't going to be able to rise to quality conflicts either.

Great, you agree with my premise that the two are symbiotic: look at the roles and features showered upon Allanak and now look at how the 'Rinth has a comparative lack, a complete lack, of new roles and new features.

If you indeed see that they are symbiotic, the current unfair imbalance in this symbiosis is clearly one of the things making Allanak sick. Refer to Nyr's post. Fix the Labyrinth.

[Gentleboy]

Well, to be honest. I don't think the Rinth deserves anything right now. It's been a twinking playground for shallow characters who just want to practice coded uses. We see the same character recycled for years. I know that's a generalization and maybe not all agree with me, but that's what I feel and this post is strictly pathos, I think. Sorry for the lack of credibility.

The Rinth doesn't need to be added to. It needs to be re-worked.

I'm going to be radical.

Until we raise our RP quality and give each other the respect and story we all deserve, I don't think staff should put time into anything big.

[triste]

Well, to be honest. I don't think the Rinth deserves anything right now. It's been a twinking playground for shallow characters who just want to practice coded uses. We see the same character recycled for years. I know that's a generalization and maybe not all agree with me, but that's what I feel and this post is strictly pathos, I think. Sorry for the lack of credibility.

The Rinth doesn't need to be added to. It needs to be re-worked.

I'm going to be radical.

Until we raise our RP quality and give each other the respect and story we all deserve, I don't think staff should put time into anything big.

We have great 'Rinth players who I have kudosed. One of my recent kudoses are for a 'Rinther I played. The 'Rinth is a vital organ to this game, not a vestigial appendage attached to 'Nak and I am pretty sure all of the people who have advocated for 'Rinth features lately are great roleplayers.

Some of these roleplayers find Naki politics stale and are avoiding 'Nak, but if there were more options besides the ones being given southside you might have more players within the walls.

Agree to disagree but don't dis good roleplayers buddy.

[Gentleboy]

Some of the best roleplaying I've ever seen is in the Rinth, yes.

But for concepts and fully fleshed out characters? No. It's the same disgruntled, ayyye fuck nak, we do it raw, style of person.

What plots have people in the Rinth pushed? Have they pushed to improve it themselves? I know we have the Gein Ze market (I'm so sorry for the spelling), and hey, that was something cool. Even the process of making it was cool! So it's possible. People in the Rinth have a strong sense of self and doing it themselves. I think that trend should continue.

[triste]

The 'rinth is completely depopulated, shockingly moreso than 'nak. People can't be the change when the 'rinth spice economy is broken [something you also noticed and I proposed solutions for].

If half of a person's organs are failing, that person is probably dying. Nak is dying because meaningful roleplaying opportunities do not exist for a lot of players with certain play styles. Not everyone wants to knit doilies in the Atrium. More doilies aren't the answer to getting more players involved.

A key principal in my life is it is fine to identify problems but it is more beneficial to everyone involved if you also try to come up with solutions. I think Lotion's ideas on the rinth were spot on.

[Armaddict]

Some of the best roleplaying I've ever seen is in the Rinth, yes.

But for concepts and fully fleshed out characters? No. It's the same disgruntled, ayyye fuck nak, we do it raw, style of person.

What plots have people in the Rinth pushed? Have they pushed to improve it themselves? I know we have the Gein Ze market (I'm so sorry for the spelling), and hey, that was something cool. Even the process of making it was cool! So it's possible. People in the Rinth have a strong sense of self and doing it themselves. I think that trend should continue.

To be fair...playing the generic is part of Armageddon.  Not every character is special.  It's what nauta (I'm guessing they're not still around?) got well known for, was playing the run-of-the-mill person who 'stuck out' for being interesting.  If you're playing in the 'rinth, you're going to run into those mentalities, because those are the mentalities that the 'rinth is built on.  I can say the same thing for every single 'trope' in the game.

Some 'rinth characters, it stops there.  Some have a level of depth that has the master hide skill and you need the character-scan skill to find it.  They're guarded people, as a whole, particularly if you interact with them from 'the other side'.  'rinthers tend to know each other better.

The 'rinth, currently, is one of the most player-dictated parts of the game.  You get a few people who you don't mesh with, and they stick around longer than a couple weeks, and they can make the entire zone suck for you.  You get a couple who you really like and enjoy, and that place becomes the bee's knees.  This is, in reality, something that I think you should keep as intact as possible, but that doesn't mean you can't modify the shit out of the 'rinth with features and support.  Honestly...support is all it really needs.  It should have a staffer or two that are literally separate from the Allanak staffing team.  And they should be animating, building, and keeping that place alive.

Any place where someone is allowed to walk up and knife someone...deserves to have the world around them react to it in a way that makes those alleys feel more like what they are.  Most people are fine.  Some people treat it like happy hunting grounds or 'Westside Story' or 'Eastside Blues'.  Things are really...-really- meshed together there as far as relationships.  It's fragile.  It's complicated.  It's dynamic.  And good support is really the only way for that to truly have the full breath-of-life.

Edited to add:
Just for an example of 'rinthi relationships, as far as my exposure over time and what various people and staff have put together as the patchwork in my head.
The Folley has a troublemaker member.  He was seen eastside cutting an elf to ribbons.  No other elves got involved.  But you, a more senior member of the Folley, got contacted to go and sort this out.  So you go to a neutral meeting ground...not westside, not eastside.  You've gotta go, because while the west doesn't fear the east, the east has all of the capability of wrecking your protection rackets and overall making you and your crew lose money.  So you grab your mul enforcer buddy, and head there.

You end up meeting with three elves.  You don't know them that well...but they seem to be members of different elven 'houses'.  Called tribes, but they are the tribes that carry weight there.  One of them seems to be acting like a front man.  He's doing the talking.

Elven side:  Front man needs to be strong, but he can't be too aggressive.  These two elves with him are backup, but they're not from his tribe.  He doesn't know their -real- motivation for being here...they could be solid with him on this front.  They could be working against him.  One of the backup elves is already in the head of the westside front man, inviting to plots to eliminate this front man.  The front man doesn't know that.  But he's suspecting it already, because that's how the elves work...they aren't all unified over there unless shit really hits the fan and something is threatening -all- of them.  So front man elf is trying to fix the troublemaking westsider without making himself vulnerable to the other elves.

Westside perspective:  This front-man elf is simultaneously threatening and diplomatic.  He wants the problem solved.  You have a mul with you, and they're confident enough that they keep making sidelong jabs at him.  That's not what you'd expect.  Your mul is carefree and confident, but at the same time you can see the wariness as he watches up and down the alley where you've met.  You've got the quiet elf in your head talking about how the front elf is a piece of shit who invites this kind of work from your troublemaker.  You should work with this quiet elf to eliminate the front elf.  That would be ideal, but you don't know...these guys aren't the head of their tribes, they're just the ones who came to meet you.  Elves are always poking, prodding, setting up situations just to see how you react...do you tell him to piss off, hoping that the quiet elf tells the front-man elf that you won't cause trouble for him and can be worked with?  Or is the quiet elf giving you an opportunity to change things and give the westside a small leg up?  Either way...fuck this troublemaker in your crew for putting you in this situation.

Everything is high stakes.  Everything is on a knife's edge.  Players can totally set up the above scenario...but it's entirely subject to player impulses and this is why it's so drastically affected by player actions.  Elimination of these elves creates an eastside vacuum instead of the giant shitstorm that it should.  Killing this guilder doesn't create much of a vacuum, because westside traditionally recruits better and has more support, but it does reinforce this whole 'hunt elves with no consequence' mentality and eliminate further relationship-between-'rinthers roleplay.

And this is why dedicated 'rinth support is necessary.  Not to mold things to act in a certain way...but to reinforce and animate the tenuous relationships and consequences of -every- political action up in those alleys.  That place is amazing and hardcore and if you're not paranoid there, you don't know the place, but if you're too paranoid or aggressive, there's no roleplay.  The latter is what people tend to drift to.

[BOXCARS]

The only problem I've had in Allanak is not enough people. I'll see 40 people on and nobody in the streets, market or any of the taverns. I don't usually have a hard time finding someone to interact with though, and there's decent bards every few days to irl week. I see far more people in Luirs but I end up interacting with the same amount of people as any other settlement so I don't see an issue really.

[Kyviantre]

I'm wondering if some form of city-based 'Where' command would help?

If you are in the confines of Allanak (Luirs, Storm, Morins, maybe Cenyr), then you'd see a relevant listing.
Allanak would show the Gaj, Red's, Arboretum main rooms.  Storm would show the Eye.  Luir's, the End.  Morin's the Gibbet and the Firepit (since more people sit there than the bar).  Cenyr's bar too.

Only see places you're in the same locale at.  So if you're in the wastes, nada for you.  If you're in Luir's, no deets on Storm or Nak, etc.

Something like

where
Currently in Allanak there are:
4 people in the Gladiator and Gaj Tavern
1 person in Red's Retreat
3 people in the Arboretum

That way people are more likely to dig themselves out of their bedforts and schlep over to a public area, if they know there are people there RPing it up.

Don't make it specific on who is where, don't let it show anyone who has any form of hide/invis toggled on, don't make it game-wide.  But it might help winkle people out if they feel they are missing things?  Or encourage people to sit in these places knowing that someone will know they are there and might come introduce themselves?

[Eluin]

I'm wondering if some form of city-based 'Where' command would help?

If you are in the confines of Allanak (Luirs, Storm, Morins, maybe Cenyr), then you'd see a relevant listing.
Allanak would show the Gaj, Red's, Arboretum main rooms.  Storm would show the Eye.  Luir's, the End.  Morin's the Gibbet and the Firepit (since more people sit there than the bar).  Cenyr's bar too.

Only see places you're in the same locale at.  So if you're in the wastes, nada for you.  If you're in Luir's, no deets on Storm or Nak, etc.

Something like

where
Currently in Allanak there are:
4 people in the Gladiator and Gaj Tavern
1 person in Red's Retreat
3 people in the Arboretum

That way people are more likely to dig themselves out of their bedforts and schlep over to a public area, if they know there are people there RPing it up.

Don't make it specific on who is where, don't let it show anyone who has any form of hide/invis toggled on, don't make it game-wide.  But it might help winkle people out if they feel they are missing things?  Or encourage people to sit in these places knowing that someone will know they are there and might come introduce themselves?

I honestly feel no matter how vague this gets, it's a bit uncomfortably psychic for my tastes just happening to know there's people in roughly X location and be drawn to congregate there for basically purely OOC reasons.

And yes yes, everyone has access to The Way. But there's really no IC reason it should work considering the virtual population exists and would massively drown out PC presence.

[wizturbo]

For playability reasons, having more means of finding other PC's who want to be found seems like a good thing. 

[triste]

For playability reasons, having more means of finding other PC's who want to be found seems like a good thing.

I normally hate OOC stuff like this, but well said that it's a playability boon. Could help our off peak players a lot. I would just request the OOC means of toggling it off, maybe my PC is just having a quick drink and listening in on gossip, or buying a keg and rushing out. Maybe I just don't want to flag my presence OOCly. A long as you can opt out it can work. It cannot be mandatory as that will encourage metagaming. Take it from me as someone who had a PC backstabbed in the Gaj.

[Gentleboy]

For playability reasons, having more means of finding other PC's who want to be found seems like a good thing.

I normally hate OOC stuff like this, but well said that it's a playability boon. Could help our off peak players a lot. I would just request the OOC means of toggling it off, maybe my PC is just having a quick drink and listening in on gossip, or buying a keg and rushing out. Maybe I just don't want to flag my presence OOCly. A long as you can opt out it can work. It cannot be mandatory as that will encourage metagaming. Take it from me as someone who had a PC backstabbed in the Gaj.

I like the opt out choice!

[Kyviantre]

Could have it on a toggle, plus a 5-minute timer might be good (to help cut down on misfires from people 'passing through', so it only registers if you've sat there for 5 minutes).  But yes, I am thinking like an off-peak player because I am one.

The Way is wonderful, but only works if you know people.  If you just want to RP and meet new people, it doesn't.  ICly, if you wanted to make a new friend/hunting buddy/bump into someone from X clan...you'd likely head to a local watering spot and start chatting it up.  But OOCly, those people are vNPCs, and I'm here for the RP with folks that RP back, aka PCs.

Sure, it isn't 'great' if, when you see 12 people all in the Gaj, you magickally know to head there for where it is all happening.  But from a playability side of things...if I'm sitting in my compound, debating whether to craft some more because Who (which, to be fair...similar idea!) says only 7 people are online, or dig myself out and head to check what could be three empty hotspots because everyone is either in their compounds debating the same thing, or kicking it up in Morin's.

I have played elsewhere, where if you set a ldesc, you could toggle yourself visible on the where command, and it'd show exactly where you were (and that was on a smaller grid than Arm!), which I really don't think is a good thing for this setting (at all!).  But some way of finding other people to play with, so you're not playing against the non-responsive environment, or going "Nah, I'll stay in my compound because I can't be bothered to spend 30 minutes running around the city looking for one of the 6 other people logged in atm"...would be good imho