The Allanak Problem

[KittenLicks]

Thought experiment for people that think a 'where' command is unrealistic: Tomorrow, I make a character, we'll call him Tavernsitter Amos. Tavernsitter Amos' only goal in life is to look through all the taverns in Allanak and keep track of who is there. People can Way Tavernsitter Amos and ask, and he'll tell them, same as anyone would. "Oh, it's just the regulars in here today." or "There's some big get together at the bar, lots of people drinking."

You might accuse me of having a weird sense of fun, but I think it's unlikely you'd accuse me of being OOC. There are ways to flavor it to make it not so jarring as 'there are 3 pc's at the gaj go there', I feel.

That being said, I don't know if that'd necessarily be a good thing for the game. I think most of the time you're just going to see there's nobody at the Gaj.. so you don't go to the Gaj, so there's still nobody at the Gaj. Taverns have this kind of metagame of someone having to be the first one to wait around for interaction already.

EDIT: Maybe we should just find some person and start paying them to tell you how many people are at the Gaj, tbh. Find some poor grebber and designate him as Tavernsitter Amos.

[wizturbo]

More than a decade ago I played a waiter at the Trader's Inn (the high class Allanaki bar before it was destroyed and turned into the Dome) and I often served exactly that function.  Notify merchants when a noble was around having a drink, tell others nobles the merchant they wanted to see was in, always keep track of who was looking for aide work and who wanted an aide, etc.  My waiter got tips, and the players connected with each other in a very IC way.

[Armaddict]

It's been brought up before.  Keep in mind that 'playability' is one of those terms that people bring up often in all games across all genres.  You could apply it to extreme levels of Armageddon without even getting creative.  But that doesn't make it an ideal thing to add.  At all.

It's just the WHO C argument all over again.  I think it's a pretty terrible idea.

[Alesan]

I think we just have to accept that Armageddon has moved past the desire for characters that sit in taverns. It almost feels like if you removed them, most people wouldn't even notice. People just have better things to do than sit in taverns. Most of the things that people enjoy about the game don't happen in taverns, a vast majority of the time.

[wizturbo]

Playability vs realism is already in the game and for good reason.  Few players want to wait multiple RL days to recover from injuries, or have permanent injuries, eat and drink constantly, coded pregnancy or prison sentences that last IC years.  And I for one don't want to wander the game for an hour trying to find another player who may be doing the same thing so I can do more than solo rp.

Not a super strong feature to be honest, so I dont think it's worth pushing for, I just wanted to challenge the philosophical argument that playability isn't a good reason to implement something...it absolutely is.

[Barsook]

I think we just have to accept that Armageddon has moved past the desire for characters that sit in taverns. It almost feels like if you removed them, most people wouldn't even notice. People just have better things to do than sit in taverns. Most of the things that people enjoy about the game don't happen in taverns, a vast majority of the time.

Agreed. If that's the case, there is another can of beans waiting to be opened- the discussion of how make clans more appealing that what they may be are.

[Armaddict]

Sorry, but playability vs realism is already rampant in the game and for good reason.  No one wants to wait multiple RL days to recover from injuries, or have permanent injuries.  No one wants to eat and drink constantly.  No one wants to have coded pregnancy or prison sentences that last IC years.  And I for one don't want to wander the game for an hour trying to find another player who may be doing the same thing so I can do more than solo rp.

I didn't say it didn't exist.  I said it was an all-encompassing argument that was basically not compelling because of how easy it is to apply to what is supposed to be hardcore roleplay.

You say you don't want to wander around looking for people to rp with.  I say you are shorting people of opportunities for roleplay by refusing to roleplay looking for people.  You say it's just game sense.  I say it's just roleplay sense.  You say you don't want to log in to do it.  I say you don't really enjoy the game much altogether then.  You're literally at the point that you just can't be asked to walk 15 rooms to check taverns (which as far as I can tell, is what you're proposing actually shows up here?).

This is also a clear case of opposites of posits also being true...

That way people are more likely to dig themselves out of their bedforts and schlep over to a public area, if they know there are people there RPing it up.

This, likewise, promotes people not bothering to -go- to roleplay in the first place.  No one's there, I shouldn't be there.  At least when you walk there, look in, see no one, sometimes you'll decide to sit down and wait 5 minutes so that the -next- guy who didn't have access to 'where' walks on over to see someone there.  The usage of it, compared tot he purpose stated for it, just doesn't line up in any way.  It reduces down to a convenience thing that counters something that -isn't even that inconvenient if you're already logged in the game-.

[wizturbo]

You say you don't want to wander around looking for people to rp with.  I say you are shorting people of opportunities for roleplay by refusing to roleplay looking for people.  You say it's just game sense.  I say it's just roleplay sense. 

Are you actually making these arguments in good faith that you think they're correct, or just trying to point out that logically opposing arguments exist...?  If the former, I'm genuinely curious to understand this mindset more as it completely baffles me.  If the later, yes, I acknowledge that a counter argument could exist...doesn't mean I think it holds water though.

Again, only trying to debate the notion of whether playability should be an important element for introducing features into the game.  Not this specific idea, which I think is only so-so at best. 

[Armaddict]

Well then we'll just have to be baffled about each other.  Like I said, it's the same basic argument as Who -c.

Whenever I argue against these things, it's usually based on the influence of player, not character, behavior.  People often brush it aside as minor, even though it carries very real and significant impact.  Your argument is that people can't be bothered to walk for 3 minutes to see if people are out and about.  My argument is that this could very easily limit the potential of finding roleplay, just as much or more than it helps it, making it a non-solution, in particular because once this game puts things in it tends to never take it out.

Basically, every argument for it comes with some check for not attempting to engage until the situation is ideal, which when even a few players start, leads to a snowball effect of non-ideal situations.

[mansa]

...
It's just the WHO C argument all over again.  I think it's a pretty terrible idea.

I don't think it's the WHO C argument if the "where players are" locations were sufficiently generalized.

aka:

>who
There are 13 players around Allanak
There are 8 players around Tuluk
There are 8 players around the Tablelands and Luir's Outpost
======================================================================
There are 29 players online

[HeeBeeGB]

...
It's just the WHO C argument all over again.  I think it's a pretty terrible idea.

I don't think it's the WHO C argument if the "where players are" locations were sufficiently generalized.

aka:

>who
There are 13 players around Allanak
There are 8 players around Tuluk
There are 8 players around the Tablelands and Luir's Outpost
======================================================================
There are 29 players online

The only issue I see is the meta-game used with that. If there are only X amount of people playing around Tuluk at a given time, and it shows that they are online, that may guide play (if they are, for instance, hunted). Oh. They are online. Great, let's organize the posse.

Otherwise...I don't really have a problem with seeing generally where people are, in play region, I guess.

[Armaddict]

...
It's just the WHO C argument all over again.  I think it's a pretty terrible idea.

I don't think it's the WHO C argument if the "where players are" locations were sufficiently generalized.

aka:

>who
There are 13 players around Allanak
There are 8 players around Tuluk
There are 8 players around the Tablelands and Luir's Outpost
======================================================================
There are 29 players online

That is the same argument.  It's reduced to a bunch of people checking it, finding a condition that is not ideal, and logging out or engaging in something else, where as the unknown, it sends them off to see for themselves and increases likelihood that they actually create the ideal for someone else.

All that it does is create a state where you either get what you would have gotten anyway, or you don't go at all, and thus never meet up with people looking for the same condition.  In the beginning, small effect.  Over time, it turns into the log in, check, log out scenario where 4 people do it within an hour of each other and would have gotten what they wanted by just not being -told- by the command that there was nothing to do there.

[wizturbo]

By that train of logic, you'd do away with "who" all together, so players never knew how many people were actually online or not.  Could be 1, could 100.  I don't like that for the obvious reasons, but I do see your point at least.

[HeeBeeGB]

I kinda don't dislike the idea of getting rid of The Who command.

[Armaddict]

By that train of logic, you'd do away with "who" all together, so players never knew how many people were actually online or not.  Could be 1, could 100.  I don't like that for the obvious reasons, but I do see your point at least.

Well, yeah, if you want to go into extreme ends and hyperbole.  I mean, they've complained about people in off-peak hours logging in, doing a who, and logging off.  Difference being that I'm not saying keep who (remove it if you really want to go there), I'm saying don't add more things that are similar, that are more specific, and more targeted, out of sheer expectation that it will lead directly to more interaction when this sort of thing has been shown to swing pretty hard both ways.

ETA:
I mean...take all this with a grain of salt here, Wiz.  I'm the guy who fought against colors.  I still rant about this and that with consistency.  But right now I'm not the guy saying 'NO, THIS IDEA SUCKS!', or I'm not trying to be at least.  But I am the observer trying to say pump the brakes on that idea, I think that has some serious possible side affects or reversals to consider as far as how it might actually be used versus how it's intended to be used.

[wizturbo]

Cool.  No worries Armaddict.  As I've said in the thread, I don't think it's a stellar idea anyway, just want to try and improve the ability for players to find others to interact with.  Having a small, dispersed player population in a large game world makes that challenging, and anything we can do to improve that without breaking other areas of the game (or making the issue worse!) seems worth doing.

Ultimately it's part of what I think a core challenge is with Armageddon, and that's discoverability of the fun.  Cool plots are going on, great players are lurking about, but finding them isn't always easy.  Go through a dry spell of not finding the fun for long enough, and it gives you the wrong impression that such fun does not exist...when in fact you just aren't finding it.

[HeeBeeGB]

I think there should be less stigma surrounding 'Not Playing in Allanak'. I think the 'What you would know' sections should be updated, and a few equally good options should be presented to new and old players alike. Just a few examples (Missing Tablelands/Red Storm):

Allanak:
-Currently the only open 'City State' in the game.
-Typically the highest player count in the game.
-Most access to clans / employment.
-Most access to political play (Aides and Nobles and so on)
-Authoritarian Government, meaning commoner PCs are subject to the whims of Nobility and Templars.
-Easy to Middling Difficulty to survive as an independent PC. The lands and creatures around Allanak can be dangerous.

Luirs:
-Typically the second highest player count in the game.
-Second most access to clans / employment.
-Mercantile Council, where the Greater Merchant Houses are the law. Can lead to more or less latitutude for a Commoner PC, both from Luirs, and staying in Luirs.
-Easy to survive as an independent PC.
-Easy to find other Independent PCs to join up with.

Tuluk (Morin's Village):
-Typically the lowest player count in the game.
-Least access to clans / employment.
-Virtual Authoritarian / Facist Government. While you may encounter the Law in Morin's, it is most often reinforced by Criminal Code.
-Easy to Middling Difficulty to survive as an independent PC. The lands around Morin's Village can be dangerous.
-Communal Living and camaraderie built in, for the most part. Find out IC for more details.
-Difficult to survive elsewhere in the world due to origin in Northlands, and easily identifiable tattoos associated with being a citizen of the Gol Krathu region.

--

I honestly think we should present more options than just Allanak to new players. It sort of sucks that now you have to play your first PC in Allanak. Allanak isn't the place that hooked me in, and I'm sure others agree. I was 15 when I started, and was by no means a genius, but I didn't start in Allanak, and had much fun learning about the game from other angles.

[Kyviantre]

Thought experiment for people that think a 'where' command is unrealistic: Tomorrow, I make a character, we'll call him Tavernsitter Amos. Tavernsitter Amos' only goal in life is to look through all the taverns in Allanak and keep track of who is there. People can Way Tavernsitter Amos and ask, and he'll tell them, same as anyone would. "Oh, it's just the regulars in here today." or "There's some big get together at the bar, lots of people drinking."

EDIT: Maybe we should just find some person and start paying them to tell you how many people are at the Gaj, tbh. Find some poor grebber and designate him as Tavernsitter Amos.

Added that to my ideas bucket for future characters!

This is also a clear case of opposites of posits also being true...

That way people are more likely to dig themselves out of their bedforts and schlep over to a public area, if they know there are people there RPing it up.

This, likewise, promotes people not bothering to -go- to roleplay in the first place.  No one's there, I shouldn't be there.  At least when you walk there, look in, see no one, sometimes you'll decide to sit down and wait 5 minutes so that the -next- guy who didn't have access to 'where' walks on over to see someone there.  The usage of it, compared tot he purpose stated for it, just doesn't line up in any way.  It reduces down to a convenience thing that counters something that -isn't even that inconvenient if you're already logged in the game-.

Why?  If you know you've just flagged a room as having people in it, and you want RP to find you...why WOULDN'T you sit there?  Sure, there is nobody there now, but if you're up for any RP (of that social status), plonking yourself others can see is where you are means that RP might well come and find you.  Idle for 10 minutes/RP with the vNPCs, see if anyone shows?  I already do this and nobody knows I'm there...for 3+ RL hours I've sat in a tavern hoping someone might stop by (welcome to being off-peak!).  I guess I AM Tavernsitter Amos!  Well...was, two characters ago

Your argument is that people can't be bothered to walk for 3 minutes to see if people are out and about.

...some of us don't spamwalk, and it can take WAY longer than 3 RL minutes to cross the entire city to get over to the action areas, then extra time searching (searching time isn't the problem, once you're up and winkled out of your hole, you're up!), even without factoring in time schlepping back.  It is disheartening when you do the right thing, don't stack commands to speed over, RP the environment, and still don't find anyone.  My opinion might be coloured though, since the last time I was in a situation of hunting somewhere like Allanak, I invariably got called back 'home' for RP in a compound, the moment I'd gotten the furthest distance away (it is almost like a bell tinkled and alerted people!).

But!  Regardless.  It was an idea I saw elsewhere where it did work and helped congregate people.  But it was a very different environment (and had extra features that almost certainly would be less popular here).  Just trying to spitball ideas to help from the (let's not say how many) years of experience MUDing I've had...under the knowledge that the Arm gameworld won't likely be shrinking any time soon, nor will the off-peak player levels rise.  All under the garnish that I'm a social player, and don't tend to enjoy PvE, so finding people is my, personal, priority when playing.

[Blink]

When I started back in 2003 it was not compulsory for new players to start in Allanak but it was highly recommended.  I am glad that I followed the recommendation for it really hooked me on the game.  I loved the rigid social structures, the brutality of the templarate, the hierarchies that were built into every single thing.  I knew I wasn't in Kansas anymore and the world of Allanak really set me up to RP with this different world in mind.

I think it is a good thing for newbies to continue to start there for it gives a good foundation that will allow them to play anywhere else afterward.  I don't believe the converse would be true. Someone who plays a couple of characters in Luir's would be woefully ill equipped to play in Allanak.

[Spiderman]

I think that the playerbase, since this is now ten pages worth of discussion about Allanak and not the first one, very much agrees that there is some sort of issue that we all recognize, see, feel and experience when it comes to the city as it is now.  I think it's been a surprisingly civil discussion, which lends itself to the idea that maybe, for once, a really large cross section agrees in the bigger picture, that there IS a problem, with many different issues.

But the problem with Allanak is only going to see some sort of resolution and answer when there's a staffside reply to what they have observed going on with the changing, migration and shifting of the playerbase and interests, and offer up any sort of solutions to how to if not fix it, stopgap it somehow.

It's the stealth meta.  It's the world plot.  It's the gmh.  It's the Rinth's population.  It's the moneysinks.  It's a lot of things.  But until staff offers up some sort of "Hey, we see _THIS_ as being one of the problems, and this is how we'd like to correct it", it's just going to be easier to duck your head in the sand and ignore it, play a pc there or elsewhere, rinse and repeat.

[Pariah]

I know this isn't going to be a popular take on things, but here we go, I'll try to be as respectful and succinct as I can be.

As a player who's been playing for a number of years, (this is a newer forum account so don't take that as gospel).  I feel that the issue is the players are spread too thing.

Back when we would have 60-70 players on nightly, it was cool to have folks in Allanak, Luirs, whatever.

But now that it tends to be 20-30ish, it needs to consolidate.

Now I know people would riot if we said you can't live/operate in areas outside Allanak, so that's the heart of the problem?  How do you get folks to interact around the main city in the game more? Without taking away the independence to do what they want.

I personally am a traveler/explorer type in this game, so I would hate to be confined to Allanak, but I tend to stay focuses around Allanak just in case someone wants to get a hold of me.

With folks living their whole player lives in Luirs and never stepping foot into another city, or simply running to the Gaj to drop a rumor with their name like some postcard advertising "Live in Luirs, it's better!" or enter your favorite city/location there is that spread.

With the work from home stuff going on, I play sometimes during the day 8-5EST and there is less than 10 players on, so it becomes a PVE type game in most cases, it's like playing wow but no other players are on, you gotta make your own fun, and I'm fine doing that, that's not really a bad thing in all cases.  But it would be awesome if of those 10 folks, they were easily found for interaction, whether that be good or bad.

As of right now:
There are 26 players currently in the world, other than yourself.

But where the hell are they?  I have no clue?  Could I travel the worlds three major locations, sure if I want to risk the hazards of the road, and it makes sense, but then there is the problem of, "Why would Amos my dude go riding across the world looking for folks when there is tons in Allanak?"

So it's a difficult problem, I hope someone finds a way to consolidate us without limiting us, and I think that's why it's been like this for so long.  It's not an easy problem to fix.

[Barsook]

I second consolidation if it still doesn't hinder us.

[Narf]

I second consolidation if it still doesn't hinder us.

Consolidation can hinder by causing people to leave. Some people just don't want to play in Allanak, others very badly want to play in other places. Others get sick of playing in the same place.

A percentage of those will just leave if there's too much pressure put on them.

I think this problem can be better solved by giving players more ability to consolidate themselves if they so choose. One possibility would be an anonymous shoutbox (anonymous to players, staff could see who was posting) where you could announce your age/sex/loc... errr, activity/time/vague location.

For instance:

Hunting/4pmEST/Red Desert
or
Mugging/7pmEST/South Allanak alleys

It'd be entirely opt in. You could post something or not post it. There'd be some sort of standards for what you could post and how detailed, and staff could monitor it by account even though players couldn't.

[Kyviantre]

I second consolidation if it still doesn't hinder us.

Consolidation can hinder by causing people to leave. Some people just don't want to play in Allanak, others very badly want to play in other places. Others get sick of playing in the same place.

A percentage of those will just leave if there's too much pressure put on them.

All you need to do is look at the many, MANY threads on the closure of Tuluk and people that claim they left/know people who left/know people who would come back if it reopened...to know that consolidation will almost certainly cause another exodus of players.

I generally like Allanak RP, and usually I'm happy to flit back and forth between the rinth and southside, but being able to escape into a non-city based area when you 'know everyone' is good.  And is probably healthy to move around if you have a bad death - I may be capable of splitting IC from OOC, but if I know everything about A, B and C characters it can be exhausting to have to remember I don't, or to side with the villains from my last character's narrative.  I prefer to take a clean break, go elsewhere, and give Allanak a chance to reshuffle new characters into play.  And as a social player (rather than explorer or PvE lover), taking away the option to move away from one location to another, would kill my motivation to make another character - instead I'd go play something else to wait out that 'reshuffle', and invariably forget to return for 5 years (good thing?  Bad thing?  Even if you have a rabid hatred of me and want me to encourage me to leave, if a proportion of players feel the same on this point, that isn't good for the game as a whole!).

Ironically, consolidation would be less painful if we had higher numbers.  Since I could roll another character in Nak and play with other people.  But when you have a low player count, and ESPECIALLY if you're off-peak, you bump into the same characters over and over, and the same players over and over (which can be awesome).  Letting people disperse a bit, with some having 'favourite areas', and some shuffling around, keeps things a bit fresher...at least in my experience.

[Lizzie]

Back when we would have 60-70 players on nightly, it was cool to have folks in Allanak, Luirs, whatever.

But now that it tends to be 20-30ish, it needs to consolidate.

The fuller unedited post seems to be based on the above criteria, and it's this criteria I disagree with because historically - it's just not very accurate.

Back when we would have 60-70 players on nightly was a very short period in the game's history. Armageddon has typically had most nights around 40-50 during peak time, except during well-promoted RPTs that were planned in advance.  Prior to the "crazy days" of the failed switch to Armageddon v.2, it was common to only see a few dozen on the who list.

And yet - there were lots of open clans, two cities open, all of the coded desert elf tribes open, players were allowed to play in virtual desert elf tribes, the Tan Muark was active.

The overall playerbase was more active. Remember the number of people logged in at any given moment is not equal or comparable to the number of people who play actively in total. Peak time might be 30, but an hour earlier it might be 25. And five hours earlier it might be a completely different 20 people playing. And 5 hours after peak ends, it might be a whole other set of 20 people.

Having 60-70 people logged in at night means absolutely nothing, if only a handful of players are playing at 8 in the morning eastern time, or at 10PM australian time.

It just means most of the active players happen to be available to play around the same time period of the day. You could change things to increase the popularity of that peak time, and end up alienating your off-peak players to profoundly that they all quit.

If everything that happens, is happening at 10PM every weeknight, I know I'll quit. There'd be no point in logging in at all, if there isn't anyone else around every single time I log in, and then I have to log out for bedtime every single night that something starts to happen. I know I'm not the only one in that situation.

I feel that SOME condensing of the game was needed, at one point. But the game has evolved from there, and I feel it's time to expand again. If you limit peoples' options, they will seek out more options elsewhere. And if we are the place where the options are LESS restricted than some other places, we will be the game people come to.

I'm not saying open everything back up. I don't think that's the right way to go either. But I do feel that expansion, rather than concentration, is the next thing to try.

Open up a new liveable area. Support someone trying to create a liveable area out of a place that currently isn't one. Add a new clan, or re-open an old one, for desert elves. Add some air of spooky mystery to an existing clan (or restore said spooky mystery to one that used to have it, and currently doesn't). Re-open Tuluk. Discover a few halflings that have fled to some place and adapted to their new environs enough to make them a discoverable, playable race again.

Any of the above. Not all of the above. But those are just a few ideas of "expansion" that I'm talking about.