The Allanak Problem

[HeeBeeGB]

I think every other IC year is enough distance between or maybe every five IC years which is closer to half a year in real life. *Shrugs*

I forget but I think Tuluk had the Triumvirate meeting every 7 IG years? Something like that.

[Barsook]

I think so. I was also thinking along the lines of once a real life year to as it seems most of the biggest events are on that schedule.

[Shabago]

For the sake of it, as I know it was mentioned back a number of pages, I've been actively reading the thread. Some confirmation that it's being seen/heard rather than yelled into the void doesn't hurt.

Staff discussion has been on-going for the team at large, as well.

[X-D]

Well, that's cool...nice to have a headsup.

[Barsook]

Can we hear the staff thoughts?

[Gentleboy]

I'm really proud of the civil discussion happening in this thread. Let's keep it up, guys (being civil that is!).

[X-D]

Well, really no reason to not be...I doubt there are many who feel strongly in favor of lower player count in areas or game in general.

[Fredd]

I believe closing the merchant house hunters and also creation of the Garrison were horrible things for the game.

The Council isn't fun when you can't get a vote together forever and 3 people can't match times, then you get staff animating and pretty much saying you need a vote to use the garrison for anything related to the outpost as a GMH leader.. So you use the Byn, ignore the garrison and the poor people in the garrison get left out.

I touched on this before, but the above is the truth. On paper, the council is a great idea. There are problems though. Needing to rely on the Byn to move the members to votes means matching up another groups playtimes on top of everything. There are ways we can mitigate this, f the not completely IC ways, the easiest is to bring back the double merchant house roles. Kadius and Salarr used to have 1 family member in Tuluk and Allanak. This brought on a lot of inner house politicing and rp. I think each GMH needs an Agent role in Luirs, to handle votes and politics. And a Merchant role in Allanak, to handle orders.

And that's still ignoring my ooc idea of somehow, some way, giving it to the tribals. (Kurac would assasinate me for having this idea, but hey. I think it's the best idea)

I also think Staff can/should step in to send an emissary for a House that can't have a PC present, instead of delaying the vote indefinitely because Kadian Y can't be at any of the meetings.

They do, but this is a choice avoided at all costs, as far as I know.

[SpyGuy]

Having played within the system some:

I actually like that merchants need to go through Indy hunters or the markets (thereby opening up more space to sell) to get their raw goods.  It creates the potential for plots and interaction and it's not like Indy hunters aren't getting rich whether they sell to a GMH PC or the market.  Hunting divisions were fun to play in but I'm not sure they're needed.  I'd rather see it be easier for PCs to set up their own hunting clans. Make it more dynamic and make it so that they need to balance the politics of who they sell to, etc.

The Garrison seems okay from my limited experience.  What the clan feels like will just be highly dependent on who the PC leadership is, but that's true anywhere.

The Council seems like a total mess though.  It's cool in theory but sounds like hell to actually get it moving.  Totally in favor of seeing multiple GMH leadership roles.  Those positions can be ridiculously busy when played right.  There should also be options for getting council votes to move quicker in an emergency even if that means doing something absentee through the request tool. 

[LindseyBalboa]

In Red Storm, you are the leaders, whoever your group is. In Luir's, you're constantly around the leaders and movers and shakers, because they're just like you: tribals, GMH, soldiers. Tribes are tribes, and you're around everyone fun, and cool, and important that there is.

In Allanak, you literally never see leaders walking around doing stuff or talking with people. I've been playing actively and often for about two years now and I've run into nobles that same amount of times. And I'm not blaming players - it's thematic enough, but it's not OOCly exciting, or plot-driving, I think. That's what I think Allanak is missing: leaders that are publicly, in the scenes pushing plots and role-play.

[Shabago]

Can we hear the staff thoughts?

You can hear some of mine, specifically?

Players, and I'm including myself in this, are going to play where they want to play. I don't believe in consolidation of the game world. I believe that drives players off, not together. If it worked to bring players together, this thread wouldn't exist. Some players thrive in difference environments, whether that be almost entire isolation for 5 days out of 7, playing in Tuluk (when it was open), various tribes, Luirs, Red Storm, etc. All of these play styles are valid. None trumps the other, and if you take away one, you don't necessarily get a +1 elsewhere, you get a -1 overall of the thing that was cut was the hook that brought the player in to begin with.

I also don't believe there's a single fix, despite the various put forward suggestions here:

Re-open Tuluk:

Spreads out the player base more. More holes to hide in. Doesn't solve the 'Quiet Allanak' issue as was the point of the OP. It can be argued that it would bring back old players/vets that love Tuluk/Charge the story line to hook newbies, and maybe that's true. Doesn't much matter to your Allanak PC that will, by and large, never see/interact with those players. This isn't some dismissal of vets that would love Tuluk back, nor is it me saying it never will. It's staying to the topic at hand, with what we currently have.

GMH agents in Luirs:

Makes Luirs even more attractive, despite being a /small/ hub, not less. Doesn't solve the OP.

Hunting Branches:

You can't have an indy crew of hunters? Why does going 'Stat' and seeing 'Recruit hunter of House Kadius' matter here? Not a snide reply, actual question.

Nostalgia is a beautiful set of rose-colored glasses, where we all remember 'Good times' doing XYZ, get the warm fuzzies and think that's what should 'be' again. It doesn't matter if that's Tuluk, Red Fangs, Halflings or even back to Mantis days. It's natural. It also doesn't last, which makes it literally impossible to meet needs/wants for every player, even if the staff ratio were 1 on 1, 24/7.

People lost their minds on the Arm2 stuff, and now they talk fondly of what happened during those days.
People loved/missed the Muark, then gave re-added/new content a beating on the boards when they did come back.
People wanted a new D-elf Tribe. Two Moons came in, and they barely see any love.
People want Gladiators, when no one applied two-three consecutive open calls.
People hated the power of mages/sorcs, and wanted new shiny packaging for char-gen options. Got it, now there's mourning of full-classes.

We'll win over some with a change, alienate others. The Halflings were fun because you guys made it fun with creativity and story telling through role play. The same could be done in Two Moons, the AoD or some Indy Crew out of Morins.

Staff have and will continue to throw out events/plots or support player initiative to keep things going, to make 'new nostalgia' and or new content, without closing the door on 'old content' (IE: Tuluk).

- There's been a good sized war in the salt-flats.
- There's been the addition of CW/TM/A New MMH, Terash, and every Noble House updated and/or reopened, the Muark and a C-Elf tribe in the works.
- There's Ocotillo Festival.
- There's the Senate.
- Luirs half blew up.
- There is an RPT gradually being made/built up besides the Senate that some of you in the south have caught glimpses of.
- There is a new entity on the board that has mostly gone missed that will have a "Big Impact."
- There is a potential world-spanning RPT/HRPT potential plot being cooked up, times 2.

There is mass potential for amazing stories for each PC in the game right now, no matter where they are and I hope that tipping my hand a little with the list above will encourage others to swing in to play as well, be it newbie or vet.

[Armaddict]

Players, and I'm including myself in this, are going to play where they want to play. I don't believe in consolidation of the game world. I believe that drives players off, not together. If it worked to bring players together, this thread wouldn't exist. Some players thrive in difference environments, whether that be almost entire isolation for 5 days out of 7, playing in Tuluk (when it was open), various tribes, Luirs, Red Storm, etc. All of these play styles are valid. None trumps the other, and if you take away one, you don't necessarily get a +1 elsewhere, you get a -1 overall of the thing that was cut was the hook that brought the player in to begin with.

I'm in overall agreement with this, and am far more on the opening more rather than closing more side of things.  This is kind of a mystery, though, since there have been closures in the name of consolidation in the past.

Re-open Tuluk:

Spreads out the player base more. More holes to hide in. Doesn't solve the 'Quiet Allanak' issue as was the point of the OP. It can be argued that it would bring back old players/vets that love Tuluk/Charge the story line to hook newbies, and maybe that's true. Doesn't much matter to your Allanak PC that will, by and large, never see/interact with those players. This isn't some dismissal of vets that would love Tuluk back, nor is it me saying it never will. It's staying to the topic at hand, with what we currently have.

I think this is kind of a shallow assessment of what's been said, no offense intended.  I believe the hope is that by re-opening tuluk you respark interest with those who were very pro-tuluk, you get tuluki players, and in effect, you get a reason to be a die-hard nakki again since their age old enemy is actually active and even in lieu of actual war, there is at least subterfuge and raiding available to players that makes them feel like they are working for a cause rather than having things spawned in for them to kill in the Byn.

However, I also need to remind people of the common, if not overwhelming, complaint that Tuluk's state was ill-conceived and it needed revamps.  So re-opening tuluk isn't as easy as 'it's open now', it's also working out the problems that people were having frustrations with before.

GMH agents in Luirs:

Makes Luirs even more attractive, despite being a /small/ hub, not less. Doesn't solve the OP.

Valid, but also kind of missing the meandering that's gone on throughout the thread.  This started about just Allanak, but has kind of evolved into an overall state-of-the-game address with each player taking their turn at being the speaker.  If the idea presented makes the game more enjoyable for people, worth listening to unless it's throwing things completely out of whack.

Hunting Branches:

You can't have an indy crew of hunters? Why does going 'Stat' and seeing 'Recruit hunter of House Kadius' matter here? Not a snide reply, actual question.

Nostalgia is a beautiful set of rose-colored glasses, where we all remember 'Good times' doing XYZ, get the warm fuzzies and think that's what should 'be' again. It doesn't matter if that's Tuluk, Red Fangs, Halflings or even back to Mantis days. It's natural. It also doesn't last, which makes it literally impossible to meet needs/wants for every player, even if the staff ratio were 1 on 1, 24/7.

Look.  At some point, you guys have got to get rid of this stigma that at least most of staff seem to have, which is that it's just old players pining for things.  For one, most of what you have is old players, and for another, you can't hear the same things out of people who never experienced 'as it was'.  This is people telling you that over the course of time, they don't think an idea was a good one.  That's not nostalgia, that's an objective analysis of the impacts of a change.

As far as hunters go, I think that the experience of being an indy hunter group versus a house hunter group is...just different.  I was never big on joining house hunter clans.  It was never my thing.  But the things were generally cycled through by other players, which meant that it granted a desired level of enjoyment for enough people in the game.  Re-open them, and I don't think you'll see this massive recruitment drive into them, which seems to be what the 'rating of success' is often based on.  Being a house hunter offers a bunch of little boons that are mostly roleplay oriented that simply don't exist right now.  The allure of working for houses as a permanent indy is in itself kind of shortchanging your character...if you're going to be indy, you're going to be indy.  That doesn't alleviate the desire of some to both hunt and work for a socio-political clan, and to both have a ranging character and a character that can be in a trusted role with plots, betrayals, and more established goals under the umbrella of actual clan support.

People lost their minds on the Arm2 stuff, and now they talk fondly of what happened during those days.
People loved/missed the Muark, then gave re-added/new content a beating on the boards when they did come back.
People wanted a new D-elf Tribe. Two Moons came in, and they barely see any love.
People want Gladiators, when no one applied two-three consecutive open calls.
People hated the power of mages/sorcs, and wanted new shiny packaging for char-gen options. Got it, now there's mourning of full-classes.

These are all pretty selective. 
-People lost their minds on the Arm2 stuff, that doesn't mean they weren't allowed to look at the all-time high of things happening and saying it was good, even if they didn't really like -what- was happening.  It's not saying go directly back to carbon copies, it's saying that there were good qualities during that time that would be good to have again.
-I don't really have much to say on the muark, because I didn't see much bashing on it on their return.  I know what the bashes were generally about before their closure, and I believe that major complaint has been alleviated in their return.  But again, I just don't know much about this particular one.
-Compare the number of desert elf tribes then to what it was now.  Look at which ones were most popular.  Look at how long it took for some of those to 'take off', often entirely reliant on having one or two PC's thrive in them long enough that other people decided to run with them and check it out.  As noted with the hunter houses...just opening something doesn't mean there has to be a migration to it immediately or it's failing.  The importance is the availability of the role, particularly with what seems like a lower all-around PC turnaround rate.  With fewer desert-elf tribe options though, and each of them so unique, it could just be that the flavor isn't the right one to bring about the massive interest you're looking for.
-The previous rendition of gladiators went great for a time, but became something where there were clear issues with how it was done.  Gladiators being mostly for RPT's and nothing else...just got repetitive.  It would probably work out better if you found a way for gladiator-holding accounts to be notified when a gladiator was wanted.  Then it's not about this massive singular event...it's about people developing favorites from actual arena matches that fit into the story of the game instead of being a construct of it unto itself.
-Full-sorc's and nilazis, I rarely heard complaints about how powerful they got.  What I normally heard, rarely, was how that power was used in terms of storytelling.  I never really joined the critique of it myself.  The more common criticism was about the full-guilds being both powerful and numerous, to the point that the mundane was taking a back seat in a lot of plots or being unable to go anywhere without seeing uber-mage number 5 through 16 every day.  I don't believe that people being pleased with new chargen options and deciding that what was available prior wasn't so bad either are mutually exclusive.

I don't believe that absolutely nothing is going on.  I've said as much myself.  I don't think staff are sitting there doing nothing.  Also never my intention to insinuate.  But I do think there's a polarized 'shrugging off' of the concerns of the players by staff, and of the staff by players, and I do think it's entirely healthy for a game community such as this to be vocal and expressive of the things that they would look for out of the game for more enjoyment.  I think that, when the game is built a certain way and functioning a certain way, it is not just entirely possible, but entirely probable that players will have a big hand in promoting their own fun.  I also think that there are are valid concerns that have been brought up that make players feel crippled in that ability, which is the tone of a lot of things in the thread.  Some things would require real staff support/work.  Some just require a time investment at the front and upkeep after.

My thoughts on your thoughts.  As always, take them with a giant grain of salt since I am, essentially, an Armageddon Creeper.  Watching awkwardly from over here, waiting for the moment when things feel good to come on out again.

[Spider]

You can't have an indy crew of hunters? Why does going 'Stat' and seeing 'Recruit hunter of House Kadius' matter here? Not a snide reply, actual question.

The RP differences between being a part of a Merchant or Noble House mundane commoner hunter/guard do not reduce to the output of the stat command.  The hunters/guards become relevant entities within the high end political tapestry of the game world, as well as a work horse of the fundamental aspects of how these Houses have and maintain their power, or even slide up or down on the Noble House ranking list.  You cannot RP as a Borsail Wyvern, Oashi Regular, Salarri Hunter, etc. as an independent commoner.  I've played all of these types of roles and there is just no comparison, the stat command has nothing to do with the distinctions.

Some examples:

Way back during the Volcano HRPT, my PC was an Oashi Regular.  I got to watch as my PC stood guard near his Junior Noble in the Oash Manor, running around in a Panic to collect books, belongings, and other precious items to load up on a wagon and escape the city should the city's defenses fail.  He heard the report come in that Lord Mallor Tor and those he rode with got demolished by whatever it was that threatened the City.  No one else but an aide nowadays would be in such a position.  It's a particular kind of weight a PC feels in Allanak when the city's elite soldiers, who were actual PCs, die off in an instant.  Some indy hunter dying would not, and should not, elicit such a response.  In this instance, my PC was just a regular fighter type PC with a caravan guide subguild, and he was useful as such. 

You are playing a Tor Scorpion, and doing your normal routine training, or learning advanced warfare strategies.  All of a sudden, your Junior Noble walks in to observe what is going on.  For my PCs, that was a big deal.  They felt they needed to impress someone that mattered, for reasons that mattered beyond getting the best armor and having a nice apartment.  He'd walk into a tavern after a day's work to represent that he had made it to a place commoners only dream of, and interact with others in the tavern appropriately with that feeling.  Other PCs would take a look at the uniform, and respond as if that meant something.  Riding out into the wastes with a desert camouflaged greatcloak  and fighting scrabs for a living does not offer such small, yet intensely developmental RP opportunities.

I'll end it here, and hope that you take my word for it that GMH hunter crews had similar cool things going on as well, that one just cannot experience as an independent.

[Lizzie]

Re: the merchant house hunters:
1. Kadian hunters really never needed to be a full crew, ever. I'd suggest that each set of PC crafters/merchants be allowed one "Huntsman" employee, whose job it is to acquire raw materials (other than cloth, obviously). He can contract independent hunters to do it for him, or he can go out and do it himself, or he can combine the two and contract independent hunters to escort him to gathering materials. He wouldn't be hiring other Kadian employees. He'd BE that "independent crew leader" who is independently serving Kadius, exclusively.

In that way, he can still be politically manipulated, he can play the social game, he can skillup to his heart's content, he can train outside his clan compound with the contracted hunters, etc. And he'll still be a hunter, still get to go out and gather materials, still get to go hunting and exploring. He just won't have an "official clanned" crew. All arranging of meetups will be done IC with the usual OOC references to dates and times.

2. Salarr definitely needs a hunting crew. There's no point in having a clan title of Crew Leader, if there's no crew to lead. They need the kinds of raw materials on the regular that require going out and hunting for them. They need their clan compound's sparring area to be used very specifically so its members can learn how to use their weapons and defense in preparation for hunting.

Salarr ALSO needs a "virtual discard" system, similar to a certain NPC in the Nakki templar quarter. You give the item to the NPC, and that NPC's script automatically stows it into a virtual inventory (or possibly junks it with just a different echo, not sure what exactly happens there).

This way, hunters who only need chalton hides, can still feel useful bringing in scrab bits, and giving them to the NPC so that the "virtual clan" can make use of the scrab bits. Maybe even rotate the cook's menu, so that if there are a LOT of a certain type of meat being brought in by PC hunters, the menu features food made from that type of meat.

Kurac's raw materials needs are different, and are handled in a different way. But they do need a small crew whose job it is to protect the trade route. The Garrison was set up to be that, no idea if it's still that now. But if it isn't, then Kurac needs to restore the Fist. If if the Garrison is *officially* doing this now, then Kurac doesn't need to restore the Fist but should have a liaison who serves Kurac, but in a Garrison capacity (double-clanned).

My tl;dr version: the merchant houses shouldn't ever feel they need to compete for hunters to join a hunting crew, because they have completely different needs for hunters. Salarr should be the "hunting crew" type for gathering materials that come mostly from animals. Kadius the "grebber" type, gathering materials primarily from everything other than animals. Kurac the "protection" type, not gathering anything at all other than the corpses of their enemies.

[Pariah]

Reopening Tuluk:

I think it will bring back players who left, who like all that stupid bard roleplay and stuff that was distincly Tuluki (Yeah I said it, bards are stupid).  Not to mention open up opportunities for nobility, GMH, Templar etc etc that the whole other city offers.  Once word got out that Tuluk was open for business again, you'd probably see a resurgence of at least some of the players who like things that were Tuluki.  I don' think it would really be pour some of the twenty people from Allanak into the Tuluk pile.

House Hunters:

As I said, I've been an indy hunter and made MASSIVE amounts of coins to support all my little kids that I made virtually with every whore around, it can be very profitable and rewarding.  However, it's just not the same as saying, I'm Recruit Amos of House Salarr Hunting Division.  It's a role and sometimes just the role or title is the reward more than the added little stat line.

Now, I don't know if there aren't trusted indy hunters who get clanned Salarr and can come and go as they want, I assume some GMH family member has probably done this, but I don't know.

Item Sinkhole (What Lizzie described):

Fuck yes, please, make a junk dealer or something who buys shit for 1 or 2 sides.  Then we can go through workrooms, apartments whatever and get rid of the YEARS of barbed stingers, 500 scrab legs etc etc.  Whether it's clan based or just some homeboy in the bazaar that would be awesome.  Maybe have him act like a limited time bargain shop, keep the last twenty items that people sold him and resell them for a very small profit.  You pay me 1 coin for a scrab leg, then sell it to Joe crafter for 5.

As to how you do it, I would love some way to get rid of shit without junking whole swaths of gear.  I've even left certain things on main streets before thinking "Someone will take them..." To come back to them being there three real life days later.

Summary:

I'm not doggin the game at all, I think it's gotten much better in the past few years from the effort of both players and staff.  However, I do think that some of the direction is odd, never really understood WHY they closed Tuluk, why they thought it was a good idea to take away 50% of the playable options in the two super power states.  But I also didn't really research it much either.  I just remember one day I could walk east at the scaien gates and the next it wasn't an exist anymore.

[Spiceoflife]

Ok merchant hunting crews my insight..

For much of the same reason as a GMH leader I would mostly ignore the garrison as a useful tool, loyalty. Indy hunters can they really be trusted to keep a secret on the fact you sent them to the hidden ruins somewhere to get X thing? No, but that hunter and his crew who have been workjng for you for years? Far more happy to send them.

[Alesan]

I don't like the fact that my fondness for the house hunter role has been reduced to liking the line on my stat list. You can just take that remark and... well, I don't know, go somewhere else with it. It's insulting.

[Shabago]

I don't like the fact that my fondness for the house hunter role has been reduced to liking the line on my stat list. You can just take that remark and... well, I don't know, go somewhere else with it. It's insulting.

This sort of reply to an earnest question to hear why they were so liked and why it can't be accomplished at present with indy crews, what with the actual word usage of "Not a snide reply, actual question." will very much so help me see it from your perspective.

[Gentleboy]

To be fair, as the OP, reading this thread has made me realize that as a whole, Allanak is part of a delicate eco system.

And staff has done a lot! Especially in my time played which has only been a year. And there is only so much staff can do while keeping the spirit of the game alive.

Indie hunters and GMH hunters will not bring population back to Allanak. Hunters primarily go up North. The GMH houses that have hunters working for them usually work together up north. In the south, hunters aren't hunters. They're grebbers who are able to kill scrab and scorpion. Maybe more wild life in the south would help? I don't know. I do feel for people who miss things that are no longer available. My boyfriend's favorite time ever was as a part of a hunter group for a GMH. I see the light in his eyes when he talks.

Instead of bringing back old things, maybe we should brainstorm about new things that will bring people to the South. I've been wanting to really expand more on Red Storm and the culture there. The good thing about working on Red Storm is that it will also effect Allanak. Not in a raider sense, but traders can easily go North and South. People who live in Allanak are not in cages and unable to go free. It should be a hub, a place to crawl to and lick your wounds from the outdoors and the lawless world. Lately its been a lot better about letting people do that and not sapping them when they're down.

Some improvements I think would really help the city be more of an oasis and still keep the brutality that the game world strives on:

-Streetlamps down Caravan road outside busy establishments.
-Making the doorway for the Office of the mines larger so mounts can fit through. They can fit fine through the butcher shop, why not in a place where people are carrying lots and lots of stone?
- A place like the Sandlord's bounty but for Allanak. That way independent crafters and also crafters who work for GMH can buy and make a profit and not need to steal from their employers warehouses. They can practice, but also, they can't get everything they need.

If I think of a few more ideas, I'll post them!

[HeeBeeGB]

Guys, just because Staff (and really, just A Staff Member, not all of Staff) respond with their views doesn't mean we need to jump down their throats.

Thanks, Shabago, for taking the time to write that out.

Some responses:

RE: Consolidation

I think the reasons why Tuluk was closed are often misconstrued. Though consolidation was tapped as a reason, the main reason from the announcement was reorganizing the Staff team. With an aging player base comes an aging Staff base as well, and I imagine free time to volunteer for the game is at a premium. If there is a new Staff member that was produced from the last role call, forgive the following, but this is the first time that I can remember that a new Storyteller (or two, or three) wasn't chosen and announced from a Staffing Call for the game in recent memory. It's a sign that our player base is, in fact, shrinking.

With that shrinking comes less capability by Staff to monitor and effectively tell stories for and with (2) Branches of (3) GMH, a completely separate Templarate and set of Noble Houses (2-4), a completely separate set of clans (Bards, Legions, Levies, Commoners/Indies in Tuluk). It's a lot. So from what I gather, it wasn't primarily an experiment at consolidation, it was a means to stymie problems of Staff turnover/burnout. If looked at through this lens, it is clear that Tuluk's closure being left as an OOC closure rather than IC (Destruction, etc) was a means to be able to walk back the decision if it turned out to not work out well.

Re-Open Tuluk:

As pointed out by others, this could be hit or miss. With an already shrinking player base, re-opening Tuluk as it was I don't think would be an intelligent move. In a different thread, people laid out ideas for re-opening it in stages, utilizing what is already available (Morin's Village, etc). Even this could be a failed experiment, and I'm not sure ArmageddonMUD needs experiments like this, taking two steps back, when we players and Staff can focus on taking two steps forwards. Taking risks in new directions, rather than in old ones. We have to remember that Tuluk went through endless documentation revision, map revision, and so on, and it still didn't work. At a certain point, you have to go back to the drawing board and scrap the whole thing. That's fine! But replacing it with something different and changed, smaller, more dynamic, and different from Allanak would be a great risky move, in my opinion.

Tuluk reminded me of Balic (From Dark Sun Lore) and Allanak reminded me of Tyr (Also from Dark Sun). Along those lines, there are several other city-states from Dark Sun that are each different from each other and provide interesting quirks, government ethics, templarate types, rights/no rights for commoners, factions, views on Magick, and so on. Maybe Balic wasn't the best choice for Zalanthas as an inspiration for Tuluk (or the amalgams of what made up Tuluk). Maybe Nibenay, or Uruk, or Gulg, Draaj, or Raam would be better suited. Each of those city-states in turn drew from real world templates, like Greece, Ethiopia, the Byzantine Empire, China, and so on. There are a plethora of options and flavors to choose from, and in a world building sense, the sky is the limit. With Tuluk being closed off and destroyed (roughly) it can be remade in a completely new image.

That to me is much more of an exciting concept and prospect than simply re-opening Tuluk and seeing what happens.

RE: GMH / Agents / Etc

That's a fair point. Making Luirs more appealing doesn't make Allanak more appealing or solve Allanak's problems. But on the converse, making Luirs more of a 'power' in competition with Allanak reintroduces more Us vs Them mentality back to the game, or could. I already see a lot of conflict of interest between Luirs and Allanak, so heightening and capitalizing on that seems like an interesting new way to go.

RE: Hunting Branches

While I did see the purpose of the hunting branches, it also seems vastly reduced with Tuluk closed as well. We have to remember it was a different time when Hunting Branches were viable and made sense, had a purpose, etc. The same could be said of Guard Branches in the Nobility. Were they fun? Sometimes. Did they serve a purpose? Sometimes. Do they still serve a purpose in the modern era of ArmageddonMUD, with a smaller player base that is already more spread out? Hard to say. Rather than having them closed off entirely, it would be nice to offer 1-3 roles now and then with minimal support to gauge interest, particularly for clans/groups that have been closed for a while. That would keep things dynamic, rather than having the same set of roles available to play over and over again, particularly with only Allanak being open.

RE: Nostalgia

I agree entirely. Rose tinted glasses are real. The blow-up at Armageddon Reborn could easily be remembered as a shit-show of bashing and eye-rolling, but the honest truth is, it was two things at once. People were scared at losing their game they had fallen in love with, while at the same time excited for the prospect of an entirely new game, with a new history that was even more distant from its roots in Dark Sun. Code was being discussed that was fresh and new and different from Armageddon as it stood. It seemed like more nuance was being written into documentation. An entirely different team of Staff was hired on to work on 2.0. It was exciting, scary, and the player base (for the most part) went along for the ride. Others didn't, and many important Staff members also left around this time. The End of the World Plots were fun, sure, but also high-fantasy and high-magic, and I can see why Staff looks back on that time with less fondness than the player base.

As to the other points:

Muark, sure. I know some people loved them. I never really dug them, and I never really understood the people that were die-hards for them. It felt like a clique of 4-5 players that 'loved' the Muark, while the rest of the player base tolerated their adoration for a densely esoteric tribe that was difficult to deal with. I hadn't really seen much clamoring for bringing them back, but I'm happy that they were reworked and slotted back into the game world.

New D-Elf tribe, as Armaddict pointed out, each tribe is a different flavor. While I've liked interacting with the Two Moons, it seems like a tribe that would have thrived much more during an era when Tuluk was open as well, and their stomping grounds were all over the world. A trading tribe that is under the thumb of one city state will often just become lackeys/cow-tow to that city-state. Not having sides to play off of makes it more stale, on first glance. I certainly don't really have an interest in playing desert elves, but if I did, I would likely want to play a Sun Runner or something of that flavor. Dune Stalkers, for example, may have been another route to go with opening a new (old) tribe, that is more centered around raiding, esoteric magic, and so on. Then again, SLK was closed, so perhaps this wasn't working out for the game.

Gladiators, again as Armaddict said, it became one note after a while. When they were first rolled out, Reigning Gladiators were pretty cool. It was fun to see all the different personalities, wonder who would be the Reigning Champion, see all of their owners roll them out and strut them around town, and have them strut themselves around town. But after a while, the shine and glow wore off, and it became difficult to reconcile how they were meant to be treated virtually, versus how they were treated in actuality. They became mundane, used in plots they likely shouldn't have, used themselves as they likely shouldn't have in those plots, and became I don't know...More dull? Particularly for those players whose only PC was a Gladiator, I felt their pain.

If it were to be done again, I would say that Gladiators in general should be a 2nd PC for a player, and not played often outside of the Arena with exception to arranged RPTs and a sort of 'once a RL week' touting around town. If Tuluk were open, it would be obvious that players in Tuluk should be allowed to have a 2nd PC that is a Gladiator in Allanak, and perhaps even vice versa for Tuluk (They did have an Arena after all).

Power of Mage/Sorcerers, I agree entirely. Full Mages sort of sucked, I know, unpopular opinion, but I am a much bigger fan of the sub-classes, though they are imperfect and not nearly as synergistic as the full version. I've seen Sorcerers with the new paths that are absolutely terrifying, and nowhere near as infallible as they were before. I have no qualms here.

--

As to the coda, I agree, there are things that are happening in the game. Slowly. But happening. Thanks for taking the time to write up your response, and here's to looking forward to the future, and to further changes to this game and hobby we all enjoy/hate.

[Shabago]

Various good stuff.

Re: Tuluk assessment.

I'd love to see it back. You've been around a long while Addict. You probably remember my initial stint on staff when it was Tuluk-central, with the flood HRPT and Triumvirate meetings, Governors and so on. It was a blast. Do I feel other players had the same level of fun, or more so? Of course I do. I would love to see those players that left because of it's closure come back. Does that mean Tuluk re-opens tomorrow? No. You touched upon some reasoning yourself, in that it's just not that simple. There's no dismissal of the players wanting it, and it isn't some "Throw it in the bin and set fire to it." idea among the staff team. It's constantly being spoken of and on. It's not an answer that's popular, because it doesn't have a black and white outcome for the player base at large to read.

Re: Agents/Luirs

Oh, not discarded at all. I get the allure/want there. I feel that scene needs some reworking, and have said as much among the team. How that plays out, with the over-all theme, we'll have to wait and see. But no, the idea isn't in the waste bin.

Re: Hunting branches (including Spiders, Pariah, SpiceofLife here)

I understand vibe and RP feel for any given PC. I've played a few hunting branch sorts, myself, over the years. The challenge of having these open, same as Tor, Wyverns, Winrothol slavers, etc is that it was - at the time - was inclusion and generated interest. That same 3 Falcon PCs are now 'Indy hunters' supplying Kadius. The new PC and the vet that quit X are sitting in the Gaj and Kadius needs a horror shell (more Salarr, but example) so those 3 include those 2 in the Gaj to make 5, rather than muddy waters of 'Kadius wouldn't want/need untrained grebbers to help'.

Again, I'm asking what was done in these branches that couldn't be done in a formed, inclusive crew? I saw trust/politics. What else? I'm lumping title into "Politics". To spell it out clearly - I am not saying NO! These are never, ever happening again in any way shape or form! I am asking for actual points in their favor that can not be done as is.

[Alesan]

Edit: Nevermind.

[CoreyTX]

Various good stuff.

Re: Hunting branches (including Spiders, Pariah, SpiceofLife here)

I understand vibe and RP feel for any given PC. I've played a few hunting branch sorts, myself, over the years. The challenge of having these open, same as Tor, Wyverns, Winrothol slavers, etc is that it was - at the time - was inclusion and generated interest. That same 3 Falcon PCs are now 'Indy hunters' supplying Kadius. The new PC and the vet that quit X are sitting in the Gaj and Kadius needs a horror shell (more Salarr, but example) so those 3 include those 2 in the Gaj to make 5, rather than muddy waters of 'Kadius wouldn't want/need untrained grebbers to help'.

Again, I'm asking what was done in these branches that couldn't be done in a formed, inclusive crew? I saw trust/politics. What else? I'm lumping title into "Politics". To spell it out clearly - I am not saying NO! These are never, ever happening again in any way shape or form! I am asking for actual points in their favor that can not be done as is.

One thing to consider is that some players are alpha personalities, some are more beta..  Running an independent hunting crew requires an alpha role to lead the crew, build relationships, hire members, etc which tends to mean a lot more hats (and probably time) to keep the crew active/going. Your essentially operating an indi hunting company.   

Where a beta type of person can do fine as a "hunting crew leader" role since your agents and Sr. clan members take on the alpha role. Therefore a clan hunting leader can  be more focused on great hunting execution/training and not have to wear all the other hats that an alpha role running an indi hunting company has to wear.. Its a lot of work to run an indi company consistently.

my 2 sids...

[Gentleboy]

Also, The Two Moons is a tribe focused on the South. Their entire trade and all materials are made of animals in the South. The tribe should stay to the South.

The reason it doesn't do so well is because the documents are vague. We don't even know why they worship the moons or really any rituals with it. It's not specified. Others who have played Two Moons with me know the feeling.

I like having a tribe focused in the South. It makes them different from all other tribes.

[Nao]

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the Two Moons. I think they mostly suffer from bad advertising. If I had only read the help file, I wouldn't be very interested in playing one. I ended up having a shitload of fun there, though. They're nowhere near as isolated as any of the other tribes, they get to go wherever, they don't limit your choice of class or subclass. They can easily connect to city elves.

The lack of access to certain resources is a problem. This was initially an oversight, but never got fixed as far as I know. Grinding out coin for that is not my idea of fun, neither is waiting around and hoping that a small PC will show up (how does a hole that fits a dwarf, but not a skinny elf make sense anyway? The dwarf has way wider shoulders...), but that's relatively minor.

The reason it doesn't do so well is because the documents are vague. We don't even know why they worship the moons or really any rituals with it.

Where did you get the idea that they worship the moons in the first place? They're pragmatic af, I don't see them worshipping much of anything. I remember using the moons as omens, but that's about it.