Does anyone else get this? My PCs are usually based, appearance-wise, on someone who inspires me, appearance-wise. Mostly fitness models.
So, I'm always at least kind of pretty wherever I RP. But pretty isn't very Zalanthan.
Then I feel guilty. Should I be more into playing horrifically ugly PCs than I am?
I am probably the biggest prettiness snob playing. My PCs are often skeptical of the overly pretty, and sometimes derisive.
I, am telling you, player to player, play the PCs that please you. There is no pleasing me and the hordes of armchair (computer chair critics.) We won't be happy. We are overly critical. We are often assholes. I am your worst critic and I am telling you, unequivocally, write your PCs for you, not me. And don't feel guilty.
As an aside, I usually try for regular looking people.
Quote from: In Dreams on May 27, 2015, 11:31:28 AM
Does anyone else get this? My PCs are usually based, appearance-wise, on someone who inspires me, appearance-wise. Mostly fitness models.
So, I'm always at least kind of pretty wherever I RP. But pretty isn't very Zalanthan.
Then I feel guilty. Should I be more into playing horrifically ugly PCs than I am?
I haven't played a truly ugly character in ten years, and yeah I feel guilty about it.
Not pretty per se, but for stat reasons my warriors/rangers are allof the max height/weight kind, and if that correlation were to be changed I'd stop doing this at an instant.
I usually try to make my characters ugly or average, but everyone assumes they are pretty anyway unless they're godawfulclearlyfugly, so play what you want, I say.
Word choice matters a lot in perception. Thin, svelte, lithe, curvaceous vs rawboned, sinewy, lanky, muscular.
Quote from: valeria on May 27, 2015, 12:34:37 PM
I usually try to make my characters ugly or average, but everyone assumes they are pretty anyway unless they're godawfulclearlyfugly, so play what you want, I say.
formula for "pretty"
=IF("gender"="female","yes","who the fuck cares")
^ she gets it
I'd say mostly try to avoid words that indicate levels of hygiene and living that would be nearly unheard of for a commoner, and avoid absolute and subjective terms
unblemished - life is hard, there are diseases and no healthcare. The sun is harsh and so are people's lives, you're going to have blemishes.
porcelain - sun's gonna burn you up good.
silky hair - where are you getting that conditioner?
perfect - subjective/absolute - no one is perfect or has perfect features
attractive - subjective
alluring - subjective
Also, just because you're rich doesn't mean you're healthy or attractive. I'd like to see more nobles ravaged by the effects of inbreeding and waaay more gout riddled fat Doran Martells than sexy wickedly grinning Oberon Martells.
Quote from: In Dreams on May 27, 2015, 11:31:28 AM
Does anyone else get this? My PCs are usually based, appearance-wise, on someone who inspires me, appearance-wise. Mostly fitness models.
So, I'm always at least kind of pretty wherever I RP. But pretty isn't very Zalanthan.
Then I feel guilty. Should I be more into playing horrifically ugly PCs than I am?
It's a game, as long as you don't break documentation (like elf riding mounts, your pretty PCs wanting to marry gemmers), play whatever makes you happy :)
People will bitch about your characters no matter what.
go put some coded disfigurements on your PCs, nubs
Ahem, sorry.
OFFICIAL STAFF ANSWER: Be inspired by what inspires you. Write what you want. Play what you want.
Love,
Someone who writes flowery, lavish descriptions of horrible monsters
Quote from: Ender on May 27, 2015, 12:47:50 PM
porcelain - sun's gonna burn you up good.
There's been a lot of debate on whether the Zalanthan sun would in fact cause sunburn. Is it a Red Star? Is the atmosphere shifting the color? How well does the atmosphere protect, given the lack of industrial revolution? How effective are Zalanthan microbes at replenishing the UV blocking elements in the Zalanthan sky?
Zalanthas' physical properties are a bit to vague to say for sure who's going to get sunburned and who won't. Clearly it's hot, but we don't really know what the UV radiation situation is. Maybe there's more, maybe there's less.
Quote from: Narf on May 27, 2015, 01:12:10 PM
There's been a lot of debate on whether the Zalanthan sun would in fact cause sunburn. Is it a Red Star? Is the atmosphere shifting the color? How well does the atmosphere protect, given the lack of industrial revolution? How effective are Zalanthan microbes at replenishing the UV blocking elements in the Zalanthan sky?
Zalanthas' physical properties are a bit to vague to say for sure who's going to get sunburned and who won't. Clearly it's hot, but we don't really know what the UV radiation situation is. Maybe there's more, maybe there's less.
(http://i.imgur.com/AB7N7r6.gif)
Well, Narf has it right. People like to write descriptions about skins beaten brown by the sun and the like. And at the same time, there's no penalty for standing out at high-noon naked without a parasol or for being pale as an albino. It's open for debate.
My male PCs are almost always relatively pretty and my female PCs are almost always rugged, muscled sidewalk-spitters.
My first PC was based on a young Ron Jeremy and then subjected to three RL years of harsh Zalanthan living.
So I'm not saying that PCs based on porn stars live longer, but anecdotal evidence suggests it may be true.
Quote from: Eyeball on May 27, 2015, 01:24:03 PM
Well, Narf has it right. People like to write descriptions about skins beaten brown by the sun and the like. And at the same time, there's no penalty for standing out at high-noon naked without a parasol or for being pale as an albino. It's open for debate.
Not everything has to be coded. There's no coded response for emoting that you've just pissed on an NPC templar, either.
Think outside the box a little, sure, but I'd beg you not not to do so in ways that simply justify ridiculousness (like ignoring the effects of the sun on your skin just to get away with being "pretty" by modern standards).
Certain kinds of magickers might have a decent excuse to have paler/less scarred/less sunburnt skin than mundanes.
Quote from: Narf on May 27, 2015, 01:12:10 PM
Quote from: Ender on May 27, 2015, 12:47:50 PM
porcelain - sun's gonna burn you up good.
There's been a lot of debate on whether the Zalanthan sun would in fact cause sunburn. Is it a Red Star? Is the atmosphere shifting the color? How well does the atmosphere protect, given the lack of industrial revolution? How effective are Zalanthan microbes at replenishing the UV blocking elements in the Zalanthan sky?
Zalanthas' physical properties are a bit to vague to say for sure who's going to get sunburned and who won't. Clearly it's hot, but we don't really know what the UV radiation situation is. Maybe there's more, maybe there's less.
I've actually kind of had thoughts regarding this! But it's mostly based on evolution and the age of the world.
Namely, how long ago did Armageddon get Armageddony?
Within the last two thousand years, was Zalanthas lush and green with a temperate climate, including things like clouds and rain? Ten thousand years? A hundred thousand years?
If it weren't very long, people would be relatively similar to Earth-people, and would probably be affected by the sun like you'd expect from real world equivalents. We'd all be either hiding in the shade all the time or bloody sure leathery-skinned and red. Oh, and dying of skin cancer.
But, obviously, people would have evolved to tolerate it better if it were longer than that. Has Zalanthas always been like this? If so, people are probably pretty well-adjusted to the sun there.
EDIT: Ooooooops I'm going offtopic! But, I figure I'm going to wind up making pretty PCs one way or another. I do try to keep it within the bounds of Zalanthan-hot, at least, and whatever body type I've gone, I like to think my PCs usually have a good reason for looking the way they do.
I'm not sure if evolution really needs to factor into it. Hispanic people are noticably darker than the Europeans they are descended from.
Do whatever you want, but recognize that if you must play a pretty pretty princess, your character is outside the (virtual, reality-of-the-gameworld) norm and try to reflect that in your roleplay. How and why is their skin so pale? Why are they so fit and well-fed? What do they do to keep their appearance up to standards? More simply, why are they the way they are? Can you come up with a plausible in-character reason that doesn't push reality norms for your appearance?
Exceptionally pale characters should be more likely to be considered unnatural freaks, not attractive.
Quote from: In Dreams on May 27, 2015, 01:39:57 PM
Within the last two thousand years, was Zalanthas lush and green with a temperate climate, including things like clouds and rain? Ten thousand years? A hundred thousand years?
So it's been about 2000 years since the Dragon first showed up and made a mess of things. If Zalanthas was more temparate before then, that's how long you'd have to biologically adapt.
Quote from: Delirium on May 27, 2015, 01:33:37 PM
Think outside the box a little, sure, but I'd beg you not not to do so in ways that simply justify ridiculousness (like ignoring the effects of the sun on your skin just to get away with being "pretty" by modern standards).
That's the point; it's never been established that the Zalanthanian sun would cause sunburns. I'd rather that this be clarified before telling people how to roleplay.
To be honest I don't know that written descs actually even matter that much. I think people more often notice what you're wearing than how many scars or muscles you write in the main desc. I imagine the sexiness of your sdesc is what people notice and get judgey on foremost.
Well-RPed is the most attractive feature a PC can have on a text medium anyway.
Quote from: Delirium on May 27, 2015, 01:51:48 PM
Exceptionally pale characters should be more likely to be considered unnatural freaks, not attractive.
I would think it would be a lot more like in Asian countries here, where lighter skin is considered better because it means you don't have to go out and work in the fields/go on ridiculous contracts, etc - almost default meaning that you are richer, and/or higher class and that that is below you, in all but a few cases which might involve mutations.
(http://static01.nyt.com/images/2012/08/04/world/jp-masks2/jp-masks2-articleInline.jpg)
People will get creative in their pursuit of the ridiculous ideal, whether wearing a full mask on the face while outside, or through using bleaching creams on the skin to try and lighten it.
And I would imagine that most people who are pale IC are pale for logical reasons, like that they aren't outside all the time, they're nobility, or they're mutants.
Quote from: Eyeball on May 27, 2015, 02:02:43 PM
Quote from: Delirium on May 27, 2015, 01:33:37 PM
Think outside the box a little, sure, but I'd beg you not not to do so in ways that simply justify ridiculousness (like ignoring the effects of the sun on your skin just to get away with being "pretty" by modern standards).
That's the point; it's never been established that the Zalanthanian sun would cause sunburns. I'd rather that this be clarified before telling people how to roleplay.
Surely, it's actually the black moon that causes sunburns.
But to answer the question (maybe?) about whether Suk-Krath gives us our amazing tans (from the sample descriptions):
"His skin, obviously dark already, is tanned into an
unnatural, near ebon shade by the rays of Suk-Krath."
http://www.armageddon.org/intro/sampledescs.php (http://www.armageddon.org/intro/sampledescs.php)
A lot of those sample descs look like they were written by players. The top one is a freckled, blue-eyed redhead, which I assume is precisely the type of description that is being argued about in this thread.
I really seem to recall some blonds being written into the northern nobility's genetics, that said.
Edit: Oh, yep, here we go:
QuoteAppearance - The women are notorious for being ample in chest and hip, and the men tend toward a portly build as well, both by nature and their luxurious lifestyles. Hair colors tend toward red or the middle ranges of brown and blonde, with almost all family members having a tint of red in their hair whatever its shade. Nearly all Dasari nobles, regardless of gender, use herbal-based perfumes and cosmetics to enhance their appearance. In short, they are one of the most civilized houses in Gol Krathu by outward appearance.
Quote from: aeglaeca on May 27, 2015, 02:21:39 PM
A lot of those sample descs look like they were written by players. The top one is a freckled, blue-eyed redhead, which I assume is precisely the type of description that is being argued about in this thread.
I really seem to recall some blonds being written into the northern nobility's genetics, that said.
Edit: Oh, yep, here we go:
QuoteAppearance - The women are notorious for being ample in chest and hip, and the men tend toward a portly build as well, both by nature and their luxurious lifestyles. Hair colors tend toward red or the middle ranges of brown and blonde, with almost all family members having a tint of red in their hair whatever its shade. Nearly all Dasari nobles, regardless of gender, use herbal-based perfumes and cosmetics to enhance their appearance. In short, they are one of the most civilized houses in Gol Krathu by outward appearance.
Oh, you just edited it - yeah, some of the docs for the northern nobility houses (esp. in the old.armageddon.org site which shouldn't be considered reliable) included physical characteristics. I love the Dasari one: go fat-bottomed girls!
Anyway, my point was just about the science of sunburns.
Describe your PC the way you want. It's a roleplaying game. I'm not going to hold it against people if they want to be a dirty mercenary who also looks good because it doesn't really affect me in any way.
I believe blond is more broadly a northern thing, with southern tending towards darker hair and skin.
I can't for the life of me find the section they put regional physiological differences on the new web page though. I know back a few years ago people with blond hair in Allanak would sometimes attract extra attention from Tuluk haters because of it though.
Quote from: Quell on May 27, 2015, 02:27:38 PM
I believe blond is more broadly a northern thing, with southern tending towards darker hair and skin.
I can't for the life of me find the section they put regional physiological differences on the new web page though. I know back a few years ago people with blond hair in Allanak would sometimes attract extra attention from Tuluk haters because of it though.
I'm pretty sure the regional differences thing is a player-created concept with no official documentation supporting it. It's one I like and indulge in, but I don't think it's canon.
Preeeeeeeetty sure that was just players taking north/south from earth and running with it. Until staff say something about people from either city looking like anything, I think southern redheads or platinum blonde dudes or what have you are fine.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 27, 2015, 02:36:12 PM
Quote from: Quell on May 27, 2015, 02:27:38 PM
I believe blond is more broadly a northern thing, with southern tending towards darker hair and skin.
I can't for the life of me find the section they put regional physiological differences on the new web page though. I know back a few years ago people with blond hair in Allanak would sometimes attract extra attention from Tuluk haters because of it though.
I'm pretty sure the regional differences thing is a player-created concept with no official documentation supporting it. It's one I like and indulge in, but I don't think it's canon.
I really do remember reading it in the old help files :P
I think they said those help files were not reproduced on the new website specifically to avoid imposing expectations about things like skin color and appearance?
I can't find these docs about regional physical characteristics anywhere on the part of the old website still up and running, fwiw
Quote from: HavokBlue on May 27, 2015, 02:25:24 PM
Describe your PC the way you want. It's a roleplaying game. I'm not going to hold it against people if they want to be a dirty mercenary who also looks good because it doesn't really affect me in any way.
I'm good with this except for one caveat... this is a low tech, gritty world.
So if your character is a dirty mercenary there are a bunch of physical tells that will go along with that. Flawless teeth, unblemished skin, and a soft complexion are among the things one wouldn't expect to find on a dirty mercenary that has spent the first 'x' dozen years of their lives learning to fight the hard way. So... if you're presenting your character as a dirty mercenary with a flawless smile, unblemished skin, and a face as soft as a baby's bottom you can bet your butt I'm suspect something odd is going on. Either you're a full of crap merchant's brat, the luckiest merc alive, or gicked.
Likewise if you're presenting as the pretty-pretty-princess, I'm going to expect there to be a backstory there as to how the shit doesn't manage to stick you.
The way characters present themselves should be huge hooks into their backstory and development, IMO. It shouldn't just be a case of, yeah.. I wanted to play a dude with a ton of scars and krath-touched skin, but really he's a clerk for kadius and has never been outdoors.
If you want to go into the science of sunburns, why expect a red giant star to emit much in the way of UV radiation to start with? Its peak emissions are of a substantially lower wavelength than the Earth's yellow sun.
My characters start plain as day, or maybe even a tad ugly.
Then, they get scars and wounds and ugly horrific bits on them, and then they become beautiful.
Quote from: whitt on May 27, 2015, 03:26:50 PM
Quote from: HavokBlue on May 27, 2015, 02:25:24 PM
Describe your PC the way you want. It's a roleplaying game. I'm not going to hold it against people if they want to be a dirty mercenary who also looks good because it doesn't really affect me in any way.
I'm good with this except for one caveat... this is a low tech, gritty world.
So if your character is a dirty mercenary there are a bunch of physical tells that will go along with that. Flawless teeth, unblemished skin, and a soft complexion are among the things one wouldn't expect to find on a dirty mercenary that has spent the first 'x' dozen years of their lives learning to fight the hard way. So... if you're presenting your character as a dirty mercenary with a flawless smile, unblemished skin, and a face as soft as a baby's bottom you can bet your butt I'm suspect something odd is going on. Either you're a full of crap merchant's brat, the luckiest merc alive, or gicked.
Likewise if you're presenting as the pretty-pretty-princess, I'm going to expect there to be a backstory there as to how the shit doesn't manage to stick you.
The way characters present themselves should be huge hooks into their backstory and development, IMO. It shouldn't just be a case of, yeah.. I wanted to play a dude with a ton of scars and krath-touched skin, but really he's a clerk for kadius and has never been outdoors.
metagame that shiiiiit
Regarding the original post, I don't think anyone should need to apologize for being sexy.
I bet that heavily scarred clerk for Kadius has a just as, if not more interesting story for all those scars as your average sellsword.
And if he doesn't, he should. ;)
I don't think it matters. Maybe if people actually roleplayed around others' appearances, it would matter one way or the other. I think it'd be cool if tall humans were more frequently accused of being breeds, just for being tall.
The only characters' whose appearances I've ever experienced significant RP reactions to are 1) character with unusual hair colors and 2) female dwarves, for some reason (skinny or husky, both get a reaction).
Lord Fale, Master of Stealth and Subterfuge, is needed in this thread. So he comes.
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii228/Saturn695/RicFlair010.jpg)
Quote from: hyzhenhok on May 27, 2015, 04:02:28 PM
I don't think it matters. Maybe if people actually roleplayed around others' appearances, it would matter one way or the other. I think it'd be cool if tall humans were more frequently accused of being breeds, just for being tall.
The only characters' whose appearances I've ever experienced significant RP reactions to are 1) character with unusual hair colors and 2) female dwarves, for some reason (skinny or husky, both get a reaction).
You've never played with a fat PC?
Quote from: TheWanderer on May 27, 2015, 04:12:09 PM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on May 27, 2015, 04:02:28 PM
I don't think it matters. Maybe if people actually roleplayed around others' appearances, it would matter one way or the other. I think it'd be cool if tall humans were more frequently accused of being breeds, just for being tall.
The only characters' whose appearances I've ever experienced significant RP reactions to are 1) character with unusual hair colors and 2) female dwarves, for some reason (skinny or husky, both get a reaction).
You've never played with a fat PC?
Truly fat PCs are quite rare, right? "Chubby" or "thickset" type descriptions aren't rare though and yeah, not much reaction to those.
The only reaction to fat PC I can recall was with a female dwarf, as mentioned.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on May 27, 2015, 04:02:28 PM
I don't think it matters. Maybe if people actually roleplayed around others' appearances, it would matter one way or the other. I think it'd be cool if tall humans were more frequently accused of being breeds, just for being tall.
The only characters' whose appearances I've ever experienced significant RP reactions to are 1) character with unusual hair colors and 2) female dwarves, for some reason (skinny or husky, both get a reaction).
I do this all the time. It's the second or third thing I think through when I do a look. First, obvious signs of oddity (scales, glowy eyes, horns), second look for a ring, third read the description and start profiling.
First impressions are still first impressions.
Quote from: Patuk on May 27, 2015, 01:49:40 PM
I'm not sure if evolution really needs to factor into it. Hispanic people are noticably darker than the Europeans they are descended from.
That's from breeding with darker people. Where I'm from, the 'spaniards' are as pale as any white person until they mix with someone with native american blood more or less.
That is probably true, if also annoying. I don't think we have any good human examples of an isolated group of humans' physical changes over a period of 2000 years. That said, Zalanthas' sun may well(or it may not) be big enough a factor that paleness is selected against massively altogether.
I consistently play people who look like people I've dated, so is it more a prettiness brag?
Quote from: Case on May 27, 2015, 04:45:00 PM
I consistently play people who look like people I've dated, so is it more a prettiness brag?
Subtle. I like it.
Play characters however you like them to be. I prefer ugly ones, myself, or at least thematically dark-skinned, bad teeth, chapped lips.
I think debate over whether Suk-Krath can tan people is silly and pointless. It can, it does, deal with it.
Quote from: Patuk on May 27, 2015, 04:29:57 PM
That is probably true, if also annoying. I don't think we have any good human examples of an isolated group of humans' physical changes over a period of 2000 years. That said, Zalanthas' sun may well(or it may not) be big enough a factor that paleness is selected against massively altogether.
You could refer to the greatest evolutionary experiment of our or any other time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment)
It's on bacteria though, but I'm sure you can extrapolate.
Quote from: Narf on May 27, 2015, 04:51:02 PM
You could refer to the greatest evolutionary experiment of our or any other time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment)
It's on bacteria though, but I'm sure you can extrapolate.
tl;dr: The bacteria got prettier?
Quote from: Talia on May 27, 2015, 04:53:40 PM
Quote from: Narf on May 27, 2015, 04:51:02 PM
You could refer to the greatest evolutionary experiment of our or any other time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment)
It's on bacteria though, but I'm sure you can extrapolate.
tl;dr: The bacteria got prettier?
They all got tans.
Im so pretteh! I'm so pretteh! I'll hitcha so hard, your grandma'll be sore!
I normally just list how tall/stronk my character naturally is and leave the rest to 'meh'.
Or pretty handsome.
Because everyone looks like Aladin and Aladin is pretty!
Quote from: Talia on May 27, 2015, 04:53:40 PM
Quote from: Narf on May 27, 2015, 04:51:02 PM
You could refer to the greatest evolutionary experiment of our or any other time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment)
It's on bacteria though, but I'm sure you can extrapolate.
tl;dr: The bacteria got prettier?
Their "skin" (membrane) changed so they can "eat" (absorb) citrate.
So yes, they got prettier.
Quote from: Barzalene on May 27, 2015, 11:43:20 AM
I, am telling you, player to player, play the PCs that please you. There is no pleasing me and the hordes of armchair (computer chair critics.) We won't be happy. We are overly critical. We are often assholes. I am your worst critic and I am telling you, unequivocally, write your PCs for you, not me. And don't feel guilty.
This is really good advice.
On a side note, I really wish the human height/weight parameters were more varied. I wouldn't mind the current range being 'average', and there being strength or agility penalties if one went over or under it.
Personally, my characters tend to be filthy mountain men.
I'd personally say to play the PC that you want to play, appearance-wise. The only advice I can really offer on that, though, is to be aware of the world at large (or at least in relation to your character), and how that might affect the character once you've been approved and hopped in to start playing.
Quote from: Eyeball on May 27, 2015, 02:02:43 PM
Quote from: Delirium on May 27, 2015, 01:33:37 PM
Think outside the box a little, sure, but I'd beg you not not to do so in ways that simply justify ridiculousness (like ignoring the effects of the sun on your skin just to get away with being "pretty" by modern standards).
That's the point; it's never been established that the Zalanthanian sun would cause sunburns. I'd rather that this be clarified before telling people how to roleplay.
I can answer this question with some deduction, because I work in skincare and have been trained in color theory.
Ultra-violet rays (UVA: Aging, UVB: Burning) are what trigger melanin production in the skin, resulting in hyperpigmentation, discoloration, and tans. A tan is actually just damaged skin, as the basal cells are sending a response to all of the keratinocytes to protect the skin.
Our sun is comprised of the entire electromagnetic spectrum, being 'white'. Ultraviolet light is actually on the highest spectrum, beyond the 'visible' range of colours our eyes perceive such as red(which has the longest wavelength, a quite visible color).
Now, considering a lot of PCs are deeper colored, or are predominantly darker in skin coloration, it only makes sense that the sun exposure is causing this. But if we're really assuming that Zalanthas sun is in fact red, these UV rays would not actually be present.
Actually, hilarious enough, red light LED (light-emitting diode) photomoduÂlation is used as a professional treatment to rejuvenate skin in the production of collagen(responsible for your skin being firm at all) by stimulating fibroblasts, and even decreases enzyme activity that breaks down the skin protein.
Defiling has corrupted the atmosphere, causing insects to reach enormous size and Krath's light to look red.
Quote from: MeTekillot on May 27, 2015, 08:56:56 PM
Defiling has corrupted the atmosphere, causing insects to reach enormous size and Krath's light to look red.
Okay, in that case UV would still be there. Fluorescent red lights work the same in that only the bulb is tinted.
People are gonna picture your PC as a hottie unless you go out of your way to drive home how disgusting they are via emotes anyhow. :-*
Quote from: Tetra on May 27, 2015, 09:01:22 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on May 27, 2015, 08:56:56 PM
Defiling has corrupted the atmosphere, causing insects to reach enormous size and Krath's light to look red.
Okay, in that case UV would still be there. Fluorescent red lights work the same in that only the bulb is tinted.
Zalanthans get sun-tanned by whatever it is that comes out of a red sun because they are genetically different than earthers then.
I like to roleplay being ugly because I'm so GORGEOUS in real life, I like to be something separate from myself.
I mean, I'm not going to play an elf, am I?
it's funny because I typed up almost that exact post and but didn't post it because I didn't want anyone to get mad at my joke and think I was calling people who play pretty PCs ugly IRL
Just play elves and assume that no matter how ugly you are, you're the prettiest thing in the known.
One half this thread: people are mean so what they say don't matter
Other half: sun? Uhhhhhhh
I posted this about eight years ago. I'm just repeating myself on an endless loop now.
When I first started I made a couple of pretty pcs. Then I started to read the gdb. I didn't want people to think my pcs were all f-mes. So, I started knocking out their teeth and disfiguring them. Somewhere along the line, I realized that I shouldn't have to disfigure a woman's appearance so she would be taken seriously. So, I stopped doing that. Now I just write em as I see em, and I'm happy. Fuck you all if you don't like my lovingly crafted pcs. Just fuck you all.
My lovely lovely pcs.
Quote from: Barzalene on May 28, 2015, 08:30:29 AM
Somewhere along the line, I realized that I shouldn't have to disfigure a woman's appearance so she would be taken seriously. So, I stopped doing that.
If they aren't taking you seriously it isn't because, "People don't take pretty women seriously...oh the persecution of my gender.", it is because you aren't dangerous enough to demand respect.
In Armageddon, I have seen more than a few "attractive" females I was terrified of and gave them the proper respect that they had earned. I've seen more than a few "She Beasts" as well who at best got an eye roll out of me because no matter how "hardcore" they played, they simply weren't dangerous.
It doesn't matter how your PC looks if you are good at projecting them at being a dangerous/capable person and they are able to back that up. However, if you make them look like a cutesy ballerina and play them with a giggly little anime personality as well, expect to get treated that way. I can't think of a single instance personally where the badass ranger/warrior female PC who was also pretty didn't get taken seriously/wasn't feared based on the way they looked. If anything, it made them more exotic and more liked as well as feared and respected. The truly hardcore super attractive female PC's that have earned respect through their deeds are arguably some of the most potentially powerful PC's in the game. You have sex appeal, charm, and proven ability. I can't think of an easier character to play honestly in terms of "Raw attributes to help me succeed.".
I actually agree. Are you surprised?
Quote from: Barzalene on May 28, 2015, 11:21:07 AM
I actually agree. Are you surprised?
I have to admit, a little.
That's why I beat you like a redheaded stepchild.
Quote from: Beethoven on May 27, 2015, 01:25:07 PM
My male PCs are almost always relatively pretty and my female PCs are almost always rugged, muscled sidewalk-spitters.
Damn, quit reminding me that dudes play female PCs. Ruining my MUDsexing.
Quote from: Rolav on May 28, 2015, 12:40:23 PM
Quote from: Beethoven on May 27, 2015, 01:25:07 PM
My male PCs are almost always relatively pretty and my female PCs are almost always rugged, muscled sidewalk-spitters.
Damn, quit reminding me that dudes play female PCs. Ruining my MUDsexing.
What if it's the other way around?
Re: Barz's thoughts, my anecdotal experience suggests that pretty male PCS also get less respect. Unless it's a particular subset of manpretty with muscles and a lantern jaw.
I think it more has to do with lifestyle though. If you don't look rugged and capable, you're going to have to try harder to prove that your rugged and capable, imo.
Who says I am a dude. Or will it also ruin your mudsexing if you know that females play male PCs?
Quote from: Beethoven on May 28, 2015, 12:58:19 PM
Who says I am a dude. Or will it also ruin your mudsexing if you know that females play male PCs?
Nooooo, stahp! But yeah that doesn't really apply to me.
I should play an ultra pretty guy with long flowing hair and delicate but strong symmetrical features and is a warrior with a bone sword.
Yeah... I'm into this.
I've promised a friend that my next PC will be an fme. Wish me luck!
Quote from: LauraMars on May 28, 2015, 01:29:57 PM
I should play an ultra pretty guy with long flowing hair and delicate but strong symmetrical features and is a warrior with a bone sword.
Yeah... I'm into this.
And at least one line mentioning the tapering of his waist.
Quote from: LauraMars on May 28, 2015, 01:29:57 PM
I should play an ultra pretty guy with long flowing hair and delicate but strong symmetrical features and is a warrior with a bone sword.
Yeah... I'm into this.
I tried this once and fate retaliated by giving me the worst stat roll of my life up to that point (I've since gotten 1 worse).
Quote from: LauraMars on May 28, 2015, 01:29:57 PM
I should play an ultra pretty guy with long flowing hair and delicate but strong symmetrical features and is a warrior with a bone sword.
Yeah... I'm into this.
(https://aletheacho.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/juego-de-tronos-second-sons-daario-naharis.jpg)
?
Quote from: Desertman on May 28, 2015, 11:17:32 AM
If they aren't taking you seriously it isn't because, "People don't take pretty women seriously...oh the persecution of my gender.", it is because you aren't dangerous enough to demand respect.
Well, yes...but also no. E.g. playing a militia Sergeant who was a hottie AND was also a fucking badass with a vicious streak, with many PCs in the city being pretty legit terrified of her? I still had to deal with assholes in the jail cells saying things like, "I won't take orders from a woman!" (True fucking story!) Also with minions whose attitudes were clearly based on the fact that both the player and the PC were female; my leadership was seen as less authoritative because I'm a woman.
Sexism does happen in game, Dman. You're just gonna have to take my word for it.
(http://images.sodahead.com/polls/003178559/efa2adfbd849dfd55947e21e5538ddcc_xlarge.jpeg)
Quote from: LauraMars on May 28, 2015, 01:29:57 PM
I should play an ultra pretty guy with long flowing hair and delicate but strong symmetrical features and is a warrior with a bone sword.
Yeah... I'm into this.
So, basically Legolas.
I'll make a character based off Brienne of Tarth and they can be best buds.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 28, 2015, 02:09:42 PM
Quote from: Desertman on May 28, 2015, 11:17:32 AM
If they aren't taking you seriously it isn't because, "People don't take pretty women seriously...oh the persecution of my gender.", it is because you aren't dangerous enough to demand respect.
Well, yes...but also no. E.g. playing a militia Sergeant who was a hottie AND was also a fucking badass with a vicious streak, with many PCs in the city being pretty legit terrified of her? I still had to deal with assholes in the jail cells saying things like, "I won't take orders from a woman!" (True fucking story!) Also with minions whose attitudes were clearly based on the fact that both the player and the PC were female; my leadership was seen as less authoritative because I'm a woman.
Sexism does happen in game, Dman. You're just gonna have to take my word for it.
When did this happem?
Hell, I don't even care when it happened. It seems like the perfect excuse for any sergeant to execute the idiot.
Quote from: Delirium on May 28, 2015, 02:53:53 PM
Quote from: LauraMars on May 28, 2015, 01:29:57 PM
I should play an ultra pretty guy with long flowing hair and delicate but strong symmetrical features and is a warrior with a bone sword.
Yeah... I'm into this.
So, basically Legolas.
I'll make a character based off Brienne of Tarth and they can be best buds.
You say Legolas.... I say let Jaime's hair grow out some more.
Cause I keep picturing this:
(http://41.media.tumblr.com/c6a33265af1cc4c783d416802390a000/tumblr_nmhuvheECG1rskuz9o1_1280.jpg)
Having played a female Sergeant in AoD and many other gurl leaders, I can relate to Gimf's plight. I remember this one time my PC was dragging some idiot to the cells and he shouted "YOU POWER HUNGRY BITCH!" So she knocked him out then continued dragging him to the cells.
Quote from: Patuk on May 28, 2015, 03:02:41 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 28, 2015, 02:09:42 PM
Sexism does happen in game, Dman. You're just gonna have to take my word for it.
When did this happem?
Hell, I don't even care when it happened. It seems like the perfect excuse for any sergeant to execute the idiot.
Happened in the Byn. Executions included.
I guess, the reality is that women are just as capable of commanding respect. Maybe women need to work harder to win it. Women with dewy skin and rosebud lips have some extra obstacles to overcome, on that front!
Quote from: Is Friday on May 28, 2015, 03:06:18 PM
Having played a female Sergeant in AoD and many other gurl leaders, I can relate to Gimf's plight. I remember this one time my PC was dragging some idiot to the cells and he shouted "YOU POWER HUNGRY BITCH!" So she knocked him out then continued dragging him to the cells.
Bitch feels awkward as an insult to me.
Am I sexist in that I prefer working for strong female PCs?
Quote from: KankWhisperer on May 28, 2015, 03:11:52 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on May 28, 2015, 03:06:18 PM
Having played a female Sergeant in AoD and many other gurl leaders, I can relate to Gimf's plight. I remember this one time my PC was dragging some idiot to the cells and he shouted "YOU POWER HUNGRY BITCH!" So she knocked him out then continued dragging him to the cells.
Bitch feels awkward as an insult to me.
Yeah...
It's certainly silly, but it's also all examples of idiots speaking up and getting bitchslapped(pun intended) over it. I'd be a lot more worried if this were about templars not promoting women because vagina, or something to that effect.
How about I just go all out with it
(http://media.giphy.com/media/eJAgh7EA5PUic/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Patuk on May 28, 2015, 03:16:13 PM
It's certainly silly, but it's also all examples of idiots speaking up and getting bitchslapped(pun intended) over it. I'd be a lot more worried if this were about templars not promoting women because vagina, or something to that effect.
It's more that it really grinds on my psyche to have to constantly be proving myself harder just because I'm a woman. And it's not just idiots speaking up, it's also shit like...that one minion who constantly told my PC how much he wanted to fuck her, then would tell her how much better he'd be at the Sergeant job than she was, and finally would act out rebelliously against her in particular by disobedience or backtalk (instead of at the male Lieutenant or the male templar). It was fucking exhausting having to tend to his little man-child fee-fees about reporting to a woman.
Obvs I straight-up murdered him.
If your psyche is telling you that you have to prove anything, that is your psyche doing so, not anyone else's. Dude was dumb. Dude acted out of line. You don't ICly have anything to prove to that dumb a recruit. Yes, he was wrong. He was also a nobody, and got schooled on how Zalanthas worked. All is well.
Quote from: Patuk on May 28, 2015, 03:30:54 PM
If your psyche is telling you that you have to prove anything, that is your psyche doing so, not anyone else's.
Uh. Well, OK, man.
Also the minion
was my Corporal. Not a recruit. My
Corporal.
I've seen enough of the insecure man-childness in game to think Gimf has the right of it here, Patuk. Especially in military clans (or maybe just the AOD, where 90% of my experience is). Gay male characters get less eyebrows raised than female leaders.
Hate to break away from all the misandry but I think some females expect to be treated nicer because they are females. It becomes a chore to disabuse them of that notion as well. As well as people who think they have rights.
Seriously? I've had a female sergeant in the Legions, and that went fine, as far as I could tell. How exactly do these people make it past an RL week, let alone to corporal?
it's not misandry to call out misogynists.
Gimf's stories don't surprise me in the least. Kinda par for the course imo.
Quote from: Beethoven on May 28, 2015, 03:39:26 PM
it's not misandry to call out misogynists.
Maybe so, but the complaints seemed decidedly one sided. There are no experiences with female characters misplaying equal gender society? I find that doubtful.
Quote from: KankWhisperer on May 28, 2015, 03:36:53 PM
Hate to break away from all the misandry
Talking about specific things that male players (and their PCs) have done in game which reveal sexist attitudes is not misandry, and I don't appreciate the labeling of it as such. It is legitimate to talk about sexism that happens in game and I won't be silenced about it by inaccurate and misleading use of the word "misandry."
Quote from: Patuk on May 28, 2015, 03:38:06 PM
Seriously? I've had a female sergeant in the Legions, and that went fine, as far as I could tell. How exactly do these people make it past an RL week, let alone to corporal?
IIRC--this was a few years back now--but he never, ever did this shit when there was any other male leader around. Nor usually when there were any other PCs around. We had to spend a lot of time together doing drudge work because, you know, leadership. Or he'd make comments over the Way. Etc.
While I agree with Beethoven, this thread is veering off topic.
Just to remind you all, this thread is about playing pretty pcs, and feeling guilty (or not) about doing so. There wasn't any specification in the original post about gender, by the way. If you'd like to discuss sexism in armageddon, maybe it's time for a new topic.
Just to throw my opinion out there, I don't feel guilty for playing pretty pcs. I usually find I'm a little bored playing conventionally attractive, mainstream magazine-type beautiful people. But I play whatever I want.
I think it's more of a problem of enforcement when most of the male population (you all, me included?) support women to be docile, subservient, sextoy playthings as opposed to independent asskickers.
That's not to say that you shouldn't be subservient or rule following as an asskicker. But y'know what I mean. As soon as my PC says one thing slightly mean or something slightly out of line with the female girly image, she's labeled as a hardcore bitch and has to climb up a mountain twice as tall.
Quote from: KankWhisperer on May 28, 2015, 03:42:45 PM
Quote from: Beethoven on May 28, 2015, 03:39:26 PM
it's not misandry to call out misogynists.
There are no experiences with female characters misplaying equal gender society?
Sure there are. But then people go 'erryone gon be assholes play whatchu want' and those thoughts are silenced.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 28, 2015, 03:44:56 PM
Quote from: KankWhisperer on May 28, 2015, 03:36:53 PM
Hate to break away from all the misandry
Talking about specific things that male players (and their PCs) have done in game which reveal sexist attitudes is not misandry, and I don't appreciate the labeling of it as such. It is legitimate to talk about sexism that happens in game and I won't be silenced about it by inaccurate and misleading use of the word misandry."Complain
If I heard any one of you criticize females and their take on sexism I might change my mind. Only complaining about one side makes me think I am applying the term within reason.
To be clear, I don't support males not respecting their leaders because they are females.
I would say more about how you shouldn't have to go out of your way to "balance it out" in order to express your negative experiences, lest you be called a misandrist, but it's already been said that we're veering off topic.
Quote from: KankWhisperer on May 28, 2015, 03:51:53 PM
If I heard any one of you criticize females and their take on sexism I might change my mind. Only complaining about one side makes me think I am applying the term within reason.
So you're saying that
I'm sexist because I don't have any specific experiences of female PCs being sexist in game to relate? This is
me oppressing the
men, that I have only
personally experienced sexism from men? Uh. OK!
And now I too am done here, because this shit is illogical and pointless. Also because Laura said so.
While all opinions are...what they are...I really do think this sort of discussion merits its own thread.
Though keep in mind that threads discussing gender differences historically have a very (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,44772.0.html) high (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,19685.0.html) lock (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49050.0.html) rate. (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,30615.0.html) It's a sensitive topic, for a huge list of reasons. So please just keep things civil, try not to be inflammatory, and remember everyone here is either a human being, or a very smart dog or spider. Regardless, respect them.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 28, 2015, 04:01:35 PM
Quote from: KankWhisperer on May 28, 2015, 03:51:53 PM
If I heard any one of you criticize females and their take on sexism I might change my mind. Only complaining about one side makes me think I am applying the term within reason.
So you're saying that I'm sexist because I don't have any specific experiences of female PCs being sexist in game to relate? This is me oppressing the men, that I have only personally experienced sexism from men? Uh. OK!
And now I too am done here, because this shit is illogical and pointless. Also because Laura said so.
I don't know why you feel singled out in the first place. There were several posts complaining about male role play. The misandry word is a reference to the accumulation of posts, in a failed attempt at humor, and not directed at any person in particular.
This is going to sound slightly crazy, but I am absolutely positive that I read a bunch of northern nobility files that specifically had family appearance attached to them.
However, upon review both on the site and in-game it appears Dasari is the only one that has an appearance snippet.
I totally remember them existing, though. I definitely remember reading one of the closed Houses was super popular for marrying into because high fertility rates and pretty babies.
What happened to the documentation?
Quote from: aeglaeca on May 28, 2015, 04:10:21 PM
This is going to sound slightly crazy, but I am absolutely positive that I read a bunch of northern nobility files that specifically had family appearance attached to them.
However, upon review both on the site and in-game it appears Dasari is the only one that has an appearance snippet.
I totally remember them existing, though. I definitely remember reading one of the closed Houses was super popular for marrying into because high fertility rates and pretty babies.
What happened to the documentation?
Deeper documentation (as in, once you're in the clan and you have access to most docs) almost always go into physical details.
Dasari might be the special case where they actually talk about it within public docs.
I'm not cool enough to have had access to the sekret documentation.
Also, it seems like that would be sort of useful to have as public knowledge just to have another potential nobility identifier (which was why I was reading these clan docs in the first place, I was trying to tell if there was an sdesc nobility tell so I wouldn't have to be so brazen as to look at nobles for their rings.)
Quote from: aeglaeca on May 28, 2015, 04:13:23 PM
I'm not cool enough to have had access to the sekret documentation.
Also, it seems like that would be sort of useful to have as public knowledge just to have another potential nobility identifier (which was why I was reading these clan docs in the first place, I was trying to tell if there was an sdesc nobility tell so I wouldn't have to be so brazen as to look at nobles for their rings.)
There was for Uaptal, I believe. And I'm not sure if it was a rolecall or docs but there was also something about Tenneshi.
Quote from: aeglaeca on May 28, 2015, 04:13:23 PM
I'm not cool enough to have had access to the sekret documentation.
Also, it seems like that would be sort of useful to have as public knowledge just to have another potential nobility identifier (which was why I was reading these clan docs in the first place, I was trying to tell if there was an sdesc nobility tell so I wouldn't have to be so brazen as to look at nobles for their rings.)
I thought you could look <person>'s signet to do that?
Quote from: Alesan on May 28, 2015, 04:15:17 PM
Quote from: aeglaeca on May 28, 2015, 04:13:23 PM
I'm not cool enough to have had access to the sekret documentation.
Also, it seems like that would be sort of useful to have as public knowledge just to have another potential nobility identifier (which was why I was reading these clan docs in the first place, I was trying to tell if there was an sdesc nobility tell so I wouldn't have to be so brazen as to look at nobles for their rings.)
I thought you could look <person>'s signet to do that?
Only if they aren't wearing gloves which cover their rings.
Just look at PCs. Until "look" is a hemote, their PCs are just going to have to deal with the echo.
If you still want to be stealthy about it, you can try various "look <person>'s <keyword>".
My favorite is "look <person>'s gem" to make sure I'm not talking to a filthy magicker.
I think that was House Uaptal, otherwise known as House Twinblondes.
I wish more about noble house appearances stuff was public. That's cool flavor.
The docs don't tell you to respectnod or bow to nobles either (or not call Lady Templars "my lady" like I did). I kind of think of looks as just being another one of those things you have to learn in game. I've also seen enough exceptions to how a noble of a given house "should" look to think there's little grounds for saying "All nobles of House Daaaayum are daaayum fine."
I know I've been told by Staff, on several occasions, that "all noble ladies of House Redacted having silver hair is just something players came up with and self-reinforce." Figured it was true for other houses as well.
The docs on how nobles look for Tuluk, at least, were removed because they set a norm that wouldn't have really held up very well with all the inbreeding and whatnot. (At least, from what I was told.) They were on the old website, but were removed so people didn't get confused.
It's also been discussed elsehwere that the noble houses of both cities intermarry with each other enough (or add to the bloodline through bastardization) that there's probably not enough actual inbreeding going on for dominant physical and defining traits to arise. Which is probably a good thing, as noble inbreeding has, historically, produced some less than attractive specimens.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/2a/56/1e/2a561e1c959225e77814711ec56788d6.jpg)
Pucker up.
Joffrey and Myrcella disagree >:[
That said, okay, I guess that makes sense. I can't help but be a little disappointed, though. Even though science.
Quote from: aeglaeca on May 28, 2015, 04:32:21 PM
Joffrey and Myrcella disagree >:[
That said, okay, I guess that makes sense. I can't help but be a little disappointed, though. Even though science.
First generation inbreeding usually doesn't have pronounced levels of deformity. (Though they were still lucky, since Tywin and his wife were cousins, so Cersei and Jamie were already rolling the dice).
On the plus side, genetics in Game of Thronesworld also runs a bit on magick. Zalanthas might have something going on too. We always have "A wizard did it" to fall back on, especially when it comes to doing it.
I like to pretend the Highborn are descendants of the Highlord and have magick running through their veins, and they are thusly immune to the sciences that bog down our world.
Incest for everyone.
The houses that are more into eugenics seem like they would be able to maintain "pretty" a little more easily than the other houses.
I do remember it being somewhere on the old website that nobles have a suspiciously high rate of "stillbirth," especially of deformed children.
I assumed that was due to a higher rate of infanticide of mutant children rather than a higher rate of mutation.
I interpreted it as both.
I think people make pretty nobles because they experience 'prettiness guilt' with common PCs, and they feel that when they are playing a noble, they finally have an excuse to make someone genuinely attractive without being RP-policed for not taking lifestyle and environment into account.
How wrong they are! No one is allowed to be pretty!
look noble.lady (openly checking out her massive, bulging bank account)
feel totes turned on
I played a strong woman in the AoD leadership and she got woman hating stuff or creepy sexual threats often enough for me to be bothered by it. Her first criminal even.
And then the next time I'm in a similar situation, playing a gorgeous PC, characters would ask her out/creep on her/pledge their undying love for her...
Yeah this shit happens, especially with newbies.
In Zalanthas, inbreeding doesn't mean ugliness unless you want it to. You can play a pretty, inbred noble.
Quote from: Beethoven on May 28, 2015, 03:39:26 PM
it's not misandry to call out misogynists.
Misogyny is a term grossly overapplied these days, to the point of losing its meaning.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 28, 2015, 03:27:19 PM
Quote from: Patuk on May 28, 2015, 03:16:13 PM
It's certainly silly, but it's also all examples of idiots speaking up and getting bitchslapped(pun intended) over it. I'd be a lot more worried if this were about templars not promoting women because vagina, or something to that effect.
It's more that it really grinds on my psyche to have to constantly be proving myself harder just because I'm a woman. And it's not just idiots speaking up, it's also shit like...that one minion who constantly told my PC how much he wanted to fuck her, then would tell her how much better he'd be at the Sergeant job than she was, and finally would act out rebelliously against her in particular by disobedience or backtalk (instead of at the male Lieutenant or the male templar). It was fucking exhausting having to tend to his little man-child fee-fees about reporting to a woman.
Obvs I straight-up murdered him.
There are two sides to this coin. I've seen female leaders consistently treat male subordinates with more disrespect than their female subordinates.
How did your Sergeant deal with male characters who were actually able to kick her ass? There must have been one or two.
I play whatever I want to play and deal with whatever issues the world imposes on me. And I have fun doing it. Have fun.
The end.
Quote from: Eyeball on May 28, 2015, 05:23:45 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 28, 2015, 03:27:19 PM
Quote from: Patuk on May 28, 2015, 03:16:13 PM
It's certainly silly, but it's also all examples of idiots speaking up and getting bitchslapped(pun intended) over it. I'd be a lot more worried if this were about templars not promoting women because vagina, or something to that effect.
It's more that it really grinds on my psyche to have to constantly be proving myself harder just because I'm a woman. And it's not just idiots speaking up, it's also shit like...that one minion who constantly told my PC how much he wanted to fuck her, then would tell her how much better he'd be at the Sergeant job than she was, and finally would act out rebelliously against her in particular by disobedience or backtalk (instead of at the male Lieutenant or the male templar). It was fucking exhausting having to tend to his little man-child fee-fees about reporting to a woman.
Obvs I straight-up murdered him.
There are two sides to this coin. I've seen female leaders consistently treat male subordinates with more disrespect than their female subordinates.
How did your Sergeant deal with male characters who were actually able to kick her ass? There must have been one or two.
There was all of one who could, as Tuluk wasn't the fullest place back then. Things seemed to go well, no disrespect, and then they ended up lovers, apparently, though I never asked sarge herself about that, since that seemed like a bad idea. What do you make of that?
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 28, 2015, 02:09:42 PM
Quote from: Desertman on May 28, 2015, 11:17:32 AM
If they aren't taking you seriously it isn't because, "People don't take pretty women seriously...oh the persecution of my gender.", it is because you aren't dangerous enough to demand respect.
Well, yes...but also no. E.g. playing a militia Sergeant who was a hottie AND was also a fucking badass with a vicious streak, with many PCs in the city being pretty legit terrified of her? I still had to deal with assholes in the jail cells saying things like, "I won't take orders from a woman!" (True fucking story!) Also with minions whose attitudes were clearly based on the fact that both the player and the PC were female; my leadership was seen as less authoritative because I'm a woman.
Sexism does happen in game, Dman. You're just gonna have to take my word for it.
Interestingly enough, I was recently reading a article about portrayals of powerful women. They have to be made grotesque in order to be taken seriously, which dates from treatments of Queen Elizabeth (with the lead white face paint and wigs), to contemporary notions about Hillary Clinton and Angela Merkel (Berlusconi famously referred to Merkel after German-Italian debt talks as 'That unfuckable bitch').
It's hard for women to be both sensual and authoritative at the same time. When it does happen in fiction, it usually requires some kind of supernatural edge to make it happen, so as to provide an excuse for why the men should be subservient to her (she's a vampire, she's a sorceress!).
It's evidently hard for the male mind to cope with both the possibility of sexual conquest/desire with its inherent dominance and submission to authority. But there's also a lot of male fantasies that revolve around the subversion of traditional female authority figures (teachers, nuns, nurses, SS guards, mothers), and it all operates on a primordial level.
Anyways. IRL, we rarely find ourselves where say, a thirty year old army vet is expected to take orders from a hot younger woman. But if it did occur, I'm sure there'd be a lot of tension there too, as happens in games where it's more common. Supposedly, all the services have severe sexual harassment issues, even without that being the case.
It's hard for me to say. My one female boss (in the most traditional hierarchy sense), when I was working for the feds, was a gray-haired old technocrat, who everyone was a bit afraid of. But I guess that's the Angela Merkel syndrome. She was my favorite boss ever, though. In fact, there's something about an older female authority figure (with the right personality traits) that I've seen be devastatingly influential in ensuring loyalty. Kind've Thatchersque, I guess. Great male authority figures are more prone to cult of personality scenarios, or getting Petraeus'd.
I think part of what makes authority female figures (with the right personality traits) appealing in such a scenario is that she wasn't necessarily interested in challenging what authority or belittling you as a subservient leader. i.e. she was not a threat to you and your realm.
Do you think that's the case or am I off the mark?
Quote from: Is Friday on May 28, 2015, 05:51:51 PM
I think part of what makes authority female figures (with the right personality traits) appealing in such a scenario is that she wasn't necessarily interested in challenging what authority or belittling you as a subservient leader. i.e. she was not a threat to you and your realm.
Do you think that's the case or am I off the mark?
I'm not sure. I could probably write a book or a much more lengthy post about my specific experiences in regards to leadership in a couple organizations.
In fact, I could pretty thoroughly describe about a half dozen archetypes I've come across repeatedly. But in my experience, the older female boss - in this case, the gray-haired technocrat as it were - is somehow more inclusive. They tend to embody the organization's values, and become something of a touchstone. Whereas for the men, it's always a little bit (sometimes a lot) more about them. DC has all sorts. I've had one or two good male bosses, but let's just say...if a scandal broke out, and we heard the boss was banging the interns, I'd have never been surprised.
It's exaggerated especially in organizations where the guy might have his family (if he's married at all) be in some other part of the country, or his family is in a completely compartmentalized suburban existence and totally detached from his job. There's a much more alpha component.
With my female boss, who had the same rank and authority, it was just much more inclusive and comfortable. No one would cross her of course, but it was more cohesive. And I think that's because a whole host of awkward cultural/sexual subtext which we're extremely sensitive to as human beings but never dare acknowledge or speak about, gets shunted aside, leaving people free to focus on work. Less stressful. I've mentioned this before to other people I've worked with, or near, and they all agreed as to the dynamic.
But I'll take the male alpha boss over the male nitwit any day. God, what a horrible, soul-killing experience that is. (And it's interesting btw, that where I worked, you pretty much had to be 40-50+ to have serious authority, and those women who sought these positions during the 60-80s, are quite different from say, the employment environment now. They had to fight harder for it. Whereas our kids will grow up in a much different workplace culture).
It is a pretty complicated subject when you take into account cultural differences between generations, yep.
Wow, didn't realize misogyny was so prevalent in-game. Makes me kinda sad :(
Some people can turn this on it's ear by using sexuality like a tool. (I confess I'm not one of them) When done well, it's an impressive feat. When done badly it's just so comic book, and sad.
Quote from: Eyeball on May 28, 2015, 05:23:45 PM
There are two sides to this coin. I've seen female leaders consistently treat male subordinates with more disrespect than their female subordinates.
How did your Sergeant deal with male characters who were actually able to kick her ass? There must have been one or two.
I'm not really sure what I'm being accused of here, but OK, I'll play! She'd say: "Good job in the circle. It looks like you may need to work on <thing>. Or for further work on <other thing>, why don't you try <technique>."
But she didn't get beat often, and never got beaten consistently by any of her minions. I mean...80 day warrior, right? She beat her own Lieutenant and could tank a few recruits at a time.
I'm confused as to why the topic turned to the coded kicking of ass when what we are talking about is IC authority. My Sergeant could have kicked a Blue Robe's ass codedly, but...so what? She didn't get promoted because she was codedly good at stuff; she got promoted for being good at her job, which was building an amazing AoD team.
I don't know why people get so bent outta shape about it in game.
If Lady Oash has as big of a bank account as Lord Oash, then huzzah they are equal!
Because at the end of the day there is no documentation that says female can't do what male can.
In a position of social or simply coded power and don't like how someone treats you as a man or woman? Kill them, have them beaten, etc etc but handle it in game.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 28, 2015, 06:25:03 PM
I'm confused as to why the topic turned to the coded kicking of ass when what we are talking about is IC authority. My Sergeant could have kicked a Blue Robe's ass codedly, but...so what? She didn't get promoted because she was codedly good at stuff; she got promoted for being good at her job, which was building an amazing AoD team.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/cf/9c/4b/cf9c4bf9d40bf19aeefa8359f8379caf.jpg)
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 28, 2015, 02:09:42 PM
Quote from: Desertman on May 28, 2015, 11:17:32 AM
If they aren't taking you seriously it isn't because, "People don't take pretty women seriously...oh the persecution of my gender.", it is because you aren't dangerous enough to demand respect.
Well, yes...but also no. E.g. playing a militia Sergeant who was a hottie AND was also a fucking badass with a vicious streak, with many PCs in the city being pretty legit terrified of her? I still had to deal with assholes in the jail cells saying things like, "I won't take orders from a woman!" (True fucking story!) Also with minions whose attitudes were clearly based on the fact that both the player and the PC were female; my leadership was seen as less authoritative because I'm a woman.
Sexism does happen in game, Dman. You're just gonna have to take my word for it.
Sexism doesn't happen in Armageddon. I have also seen a few instances of things like that. "You hit like a girl!". I've seen that a few times.
It gets reported every time.
Now, you are saying, "I saw it with my PC so that is why I'm not treated with the respect I deserve!". No, a few people who do not know how to play the game and should be reported until they change their behavior or are banned aren't following the rules.
You know who I don't care about? People who are so new or are so bad at the game that they don't know/do not follow the rules.
Somehow, I don't think these sorts of people are so important to the politics of the game world that them not, "giving your super dangerous PC that everyone was so afraid of" respect, really matters......if these sorts of people DO matter to your PC, your PC isn't as dangerous or important as you think they are.
I've seen these sorts of things said in game, I agree.....but not by anyone where it would ever matter an ounce to the circle my PC's generally run in. They also go reported.
I've also seen a newbie dwarf ask people repeatedly about hunting orcs. He was not reflective or "real Armageddon.".
I've seen a guy talk about wanting to build a "horseless carriage". He was not reflective or "real Armageddon".
I've seen a guy talk about building his own city one day once he learned magick in the middle of the Gaj. He was not reflective of "real Armageddon".
You had a few newbtards say some sexist things about your PC's. They didn't respect you because your PC was a woman. My point is, if it affected your character in any way at all...your character really WASN'T as truly hardcore as you imagine they were.
If your character was really a badass and really did demand and deserve a huge level of respect...these nubs saying these things never affected you or your character at all.
Quote from: Asmoth on May 28, 2015, 06:27:05 PM
I don't know why people get so bent outta shape about it in game.
If Lady Oash has as big of a bank account as Lord Oash, then huzzah they are equal!
Because at the end of the day there is no documentation that says female can't do what male can.
In a position of social or simply coded power and don't like how someone treats you as a man or woman? Kill them, have them beaten, etc etc but handle it in game.
It's a bit of an issue because Zalanthas doesn't have a (canon) history of sexually diversified jobs or talents. Because of this, it shouldn't occur to a character rping in the cannon world that there would be a difference in ability based on sex. They don't have a historical or cultural context ICly to draw this attitude from, even on an individual level.
Except for ret-conned Jihaen/Lirathans. But yeah! Totes.
Quote from: Is Friday on May 28, 2015, 06:43:40 PM
Except for ret-conned Jihaen/Lirathans. But yeah! Totes.
They weren't retconned
Quote from: Desertman on May 28, 2015, 06:40:21 PM
Sexism doesn't happen in Armageddon. I have also seen a few instances of things like that. "You hit like a girl!". I've seen that a few times.
It gets reported every time.
Again this is "If Asmoth was an Admin".
But if you filed a player report because someone said "You hit like a girl" I would send you a harshly worded letter about wasting my time.
Now if the person consistently portrayed a "Men are better than women" attitude and you were reporting a string of occurrences in a "Please let them know this isn't the way they should do things." manner than a "MOOOOMMM! They said something they shouldn't I'm telling!" way that this came across. That's different.
Quote from: wizturbo on May 28, 2015, 06:16:17 PM
Wow, didn't realize misogyny was so prevalent in-game. Makes me kinda sad :(
I don't think it's fair to characterize someone as guilty of misandry, when basically they're your average Western citizen dealing with millenia of biological and social evolution, living in an age where such notions about gender, sex and our economic values to society is being radically transformed from its agricultural tradition. If anything, fantasy games and roleplaying communities are exceptional for their relative lack of misogyny. Maybe because there are so many men playing women, that they're more in touch with their feminine side...
If you want to see true misogyny, try spending a little time in Turkey or even India. Great places if you're a guy, even in this day and age they'll treat you with sublime hospitality (I loved it). Completely ridiculous in some cases for the girls, who dealt with constant harassment and creepy incidents from all sides and every strata of society they encountered. I've seen a bit of the world, and about 75% of it is a geographic and cultural shithole. Even Europe is incredibly racist. Northern Europe is all right on the corruption index/sexism scale, but Southern Europe drags the median waaay down.
Needless to say, having grown up in a media/academic environment where I was conditioned to believing America was less sensitive, less enlightened, more intolerant and more racist than the rest of the world, reality was a rude awakening.
Quote from: Asmoth on May 28, 2015, 06:47:15 PM
Quote from: Desertman on May 28, 2015, 06:40:21 PM
Sexism doesn't happen in Armageddon. I have also seen a few instances of things like that. "You hit like a girl!". I've seen that a few times.
It gets reported every time.
Again this is "If Asmoth was an Admin".
But if you filed a player report because someone said "You hit like a girl" I would send you a harshly worded letter about wasting my time.
Now if the person consistently portrayed a "Men are better than women" attitude and you were reporting a string of occurrences in a "Please let them know this isn't the way they should do things." manner than a "MOOOOMMM! They said something they shouldn't I'm telling!" way that this came across. That's different.
I may not be there for every time they decide to break the rules that are pretty easy to follow. I am a player. You are an Admin (in this scenario). It is my job to report these things AS I see them, and your job to look into the matter.
Let's say I don't report this one instance I was around for, but this person is doing it constantly, I'm just not able to be around.
As an Admin, you would be able to look into their play and do something about it.
As a player, if I don't report it, I just took away your chance to do that. I just took away your ability to teach this person how to better play Armageddon. Not only did I not help, I arguably compounded the issue...all because you don't want players "wasting your time", by reporting rule breakers unless they can provide multiple instances of someone breaking the rules all in one report.
Saying someone "hits a like a girl" is inferring that men are better than women (At least when it comes to hitting things). It also makes no sense for the Armageddon setting considering that there are no differences in strength between the sexes.
It's a thing I see from newbies, mostly. I'm irked by it, but also by not really knowing how to correct them in game without resulting to OOC (which I really don't want to do).
Quote from: Desertman on May 28, 2015, 06:40:21 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 28, 2015, 02:09:42 PM
Quote from: Desertman on May 28, 2015, 11:17:32 AM
If they aren't taking you seriously it isn't because, "People don't take pretty women seriously...oh the persecution of my gender.", it is because you aren't dangerous enough to demand respect.
Well, yes...but also no. E.g. playing a militia Sergeant who was a hottie AND was also a fucking badass with a vicious streak, with many PCs in the city being pretty legit terrified of her? I still had to deal with assholes in the jail cells saying things like, "I won't take orders from a woman!" (True fucking story!) Also with minions whose attitudes were clearly based on the fact that both the player and the PC were female; my leadership was seen as less authoritative because I'm a woman.
Sexism does happen in game, Dman. You're just gonna have to take my word for it.
Sexism doesn't happen in Armageddon. I have also seen a few instances of things like that. "You hit like a girl!". I've seen that a few times.
It gets reported every time.
Now, you are saying, "I saw it with my PC so that is why I'm not treated with the respect I deserve!". No, a few people who do not know how to play the game and should be reported until they change their behavior or are banned aren't following the rules.
You know who I don't care about? People who are so new or are so bad at the game that they don't know/do not follow the rules.
Somehow, I don't think these sorts of people are so important to the politics of the game world that them not, "giving your super dangerous PC that everyone was so afraid of" respect, really matters......if these sorts of people DO matter to your PC, your PC isn't as dangerous or important as you think they are.
I've seen these sorts of things said in game, I agree.....but not by anyone where it would ever matter an ounce to the circle my PC's generally run in. They also go reported.
I've also seen a newbie dwarf ask people repeatedly about hunting orcs. He was not reflective or "real Armageddon.".
I've seen a guy talk about wanting to build a "horseless carriage". He was not reflective or "real Armageddon".
I've seen a guy talk about building his own city one day once he learned magick in the middle of the Gaj. He was not reflective of "real Armageddon".
You had a few newbtards say some sexist things about your PC's. They didn't respect you because your PC was a woman. My point is, if it affected your character in any way at all...your character really WASN'T as truly hardcore as you imagine they were.
If your character was really a badass and really did demand and deserve a huge level of respect...these nubs saying these things never affected you or your character at all.
Now I disagree. Are you surprised?
It's
not that we (or I) am saying "Crap. All you fucking male players, not respecting my pcs, not playing the game right. It's a chore to be a woman." If that were the case, I don't know that I'd have any interest in playing here. But there is more random sexism based ickiness in various forms going on than you see.
One reason you might not notice it, is that I think women think some things are icky that don't throw up flags for me. You just have to take my word for it. I've never lied to you before. I'm not starting now. Really. Icky happens.
What also happens on the the boards is the idea of the fme pc who isn't really earning all she gets by merit, but rather because she's an fme pc. (Which I probably shouldn't mention because yeah, we've had that conversation already.) This is pertinent only because it is something to be factored when making a description. (Maybe that's just me.)
Quote from: Desertman on May 28, 2015, 06:52:48 PM
Quote from: Asmoth on May 28, 2015, 06:47:15 PM
Quote from: Desertman on May 28, 2015, 06:40:21 PM
Sexism doesn't happen in Armageddon. I have also seen a few instances of things like that. "You hit like a girl!". I've seen that a few times.
It gets reported every time.
Again this is "If Asmoth was an Admin".
But if you filed a player report because someone said "You hit like a girl" I would send you a harshly worded letter about wasting my time.
Now if the person consistently portrayed a "Men are better than women" attitude and you were reporting a string of occurrences in a "Please let them know this isn't the way they should do things." manner than a "MOOOOMMM! They said something they shouldn't I'm telling!" way that this came across. That's different.
I may not be there for every time they decide to break the rules that are pretty easy to follow. I am a player. You are an Admin (in this scenario). It is my job to report these things AS I see them, and your job to look into the matter.
Let's say I don't report this one instance I was around for, but this person is doing it constantly, I'm just not able to be around.
As an Admin, you would be able to look into their play and do something about it.
As a player, if I don't report it, I just took away your chance to do that. I just took away your ability to teach this person how to better play Armageddon. Not only did I not help, I arguably compounded the issue...all because you don't want players "wasting your time", by reporting rule breakers unless they can provide multiple instances of someone breaking the rules all in one report.
More of what I meant to say is that there are TONS of ways you could attempt to correct him icly.
Running to admin with such a small (in the scope of things) complaint is silly. Solve it at the lowest level.
Show them they are talking crazy in your IC response to their crazy ass statement.
QuoteTalk (arching an eyebrow and looking at ~fella strangely) What the fuck are you talking about, what does her having tits have to do with how hard she'll hit you in the nose?
Quote from: Is Friday on May 28, 2015, 03:06:18 PM
Having played a female Sergeant in AoD and many other gurl leaders, I can relate to Gimf's plight. I remember this one time my PC was dragging some idiot to the cells and he shouted "YOU POWER HUNGRY BITCH!" So she knocked him out then continued dragging him to the cells.
My one attempt at an attractive female was pretty fun, but there were a couple ridiculous and silly come-ons with crude comments that would be incredibly demeaning in real life, made me roll my eyes and I really had to fight the urge to use OOC to laugh at them.
I want to say that characters name but I'm pretty sure it was too recent. Which is weird, feels like years ago now.
So is there like straight up no ic difference between men and women in Zalananthatatas?
Because in real life, you know, women (Usually) hit less hard than men.
That sweet testosterone.
Helps me be manly.
Or maybe I'm just stupid.
I also know there isn't an ooc difference.
The only difference is that women have children in zalanthas.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 28, 2015, 07:37:27 PM
The only difference is that women have children in zalanthas.
Male Dwarven focus to have a child. Next character incoming.
Quote from: Jihelu on May 28, 2015, 07:32:18 PM
So is there like straight up no ic difference between men and women in Zalananthatatas?
Because in real life, you know, women (Usually) hit less hard than men.
That sweet testosterone.
Helps me be manly.
Or maybe I'm just stupid.
I also know there isn't an ooc difference.
It's really better to not think about it too much. Of course IRL, the average man is to the average woman, what a mul is to a human in Zalanthas. (If you don't believe me, ask any woman who has ever trained in combat sports). There are many biological reasons for this, some of which relate to the capacity for childbirth.
But Zalanthas is a fantasy society, with fantasy tropes, and as such, it's best interpreted in that light. Think of it as Joss Whedon logic (Joss is famous for tiny heroines who are super agile and powerful hand to hand combatants). Nothing wrong with it.
Last time I weighed in on this topic, I noted that how the discussion is always female characters and their relationship to the 'baseline' of the male image or male characterisation. Everybody's always trying to argue why it's so hard, or obviously difficult, to elevate women to equality with men.
If these are the perspectives of the playerbase, no wonder that shit plays out IG.
Quote from: Case on May 28, 2015, 08:02:45 PM
Last time I weighed in on this topic, I noted that how the discussion is always female characters and their relationship to the 'baseline' of the male image or male characterisation. Everybody's always trying to argue why it's so hard, or obviously difficult, to elevate women to equality with men.
If these are the perspectives of the playerbase, no wonder that shit plays out IG.
Well the whole "Equality in game" is there so that Armageddon is open to the whole community and men or women don't feel inferior or superior for being good at anything.
Say a male character is one of the best cooks around and a female is the best fighter. In some people's view of gender norms, that would be odd.
Now if you look at it in comparison to real life, a male with "average" strength is still going to be stronger than a female with "average" strength because genetically, (Unless she's just one of those random HUGE women Chyna from WWE) normally women are weaker.
So what it all boils down to is that it was coded that way, that gender has no effect on stats/skills so that people wouldn't play men for a coded advantage and women wouldn't have to feel odd playing a man for the same. (I might not be saying this right, but I hope you get what I mean).
My take has always been that, all the women I know take entirely too much shit in real life, getting hit on, dealing with pay/job discrimination etc etc, that it would be wrong to give them shit in a game they play for funzies.
So sure, all women are built like Chyna in Armageddon and can physically beat my male characters down in the game potentially. Suspension of belief is fine.
(http://photographyheat.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/female_muscle-5.jpg)
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/I-give-up.gif)
Quote from: Case on May 28, 2015, 08:02:45 PM
Last time I weighed in on this topic, I noted that how the discussion is always female characters and their relationship to the 'baseline' of the male image or male characterisation. Everybody's always trying to argue why it's so hard, or obviously difficult, to elevate women to equality with men.
If these are the perspectives of the playerbase, no wonder that shit plays out IG.
The reason for this is that most people equate "gritty and hardcore" with "able to fight".
The raw fact is, men make better fighters than women because of biology. There are some extreme exceptions to the rule in terms of prodigies etc...(Ronda Rousey for example), but outside of that, the norm is that women are weaker than men.
In Zalanthas, how strong you are generally dictates how much power you have...at least until you get into things like politics and wealth.
This is why people keep trying to "bring women up to the same level as men"...because in real life, that would be the case.
If this thread is not going to get split off, I suppose I have a few things to say about sexism as someone who plays both men and women (although historically I have played more men.)
I don't usually see the overt "lol but ur a gurl" sort of sexism. When I do, it's easy enough to lay the smack down on that person, and pretty much everyone around does the same. I don't mind that so much because it's easy to stomp out.
It's actually with my male characters that I have seen more misogyny. Some male PCs get kind of the "bro" attitude with my male PCs, and start griping about women and their nature, how emotional/whiny/needy/clingy they are, etc. And overall, I see the attitude reinforced that men are the rugged combatants while females are the floofy crafter/aide/prostitute types. There are various ways that is expressed, including assuming that a people in leadership roles, especially combat leadership roles, are going to be male, or showing more inherent respect for male leadership. Expecting males to meet a certain standard of grit, ruggedness, bravado, and combat prowess while not expecting the same of females. Not being willing to strike females, or being more reluctant.
Do females have a hand in this? Probably. I just haven't noticed it as much. I notice females enforcing misogyny in real life a lot more often than I have IG. That is just my experience, however.
Quote from: Desertman on May 28, 2015, 08:17:55 PM
Quote from: Case on May 28, 2015, 08:02:45 PM
Last time I weighed in on this topic, I noted that how the discussion is always female characters and their relationship to the 'baseline' of the male image or male characterisation. Everybody's always trying to argue why it's so hard, or obviously difficult, to elevate women to equality with men.
If these are the perspectives of the playerbase, no wonder that shit plays out IG.
The reason for this is that most people equate "gritty and hardcore" with "able to fight".
The raw fact is, men make better fighters than women because of biology. There are some extreme exceptions to the rule in terms of prodigies etc...(Ronda Rousey for example), but outside of that, the norm is that women are weaker than men.
In Zalanthas, how strong you are generally dictates how much power you have...at least until you get into things like politics and wealth.
This is why people keep trying to "bring women up to the same level as men"...because in real life, that would be the case.
I'm aware. I've heard how weak I am all my life.
IRL wise I've heard and seen women degrade them selves more than I've seen men. I also get shit on for having a pink phone case all the time. The fuck is wrong with me having something pretty?
In game wise I don't think I've ever seen this happen.
Quote from: Jihelu on May 28, 2015, 08:34:13 PM
IRL wise I've heard and seen women degrade them selves more than I've seen men. I also get shit on for having a pink phone case all the time. The fuck is wrong with me having something pretty?
In game wise I don't think I've ever seen this happen.
Just to understand the context... Are you a man or woman?
At this point the derail is too long and peppered with off-topic off-topicness to split with any neatness.
all I ask is that everyone remain civil.
Quote from: Asmoth on May 28, 2015, 08:39:11 PM
Quote from: Jihelu on May 28, 2015, 08:34:13 PM
IRL wise I've heard and seen women degrade them selves more than I've seen men. I also get shit on for having a pink phone case all the time. The fuck is wrong with me having something pretty?
In game wise I don't think I've ever seen this happen.
Just to understand the context... Are you a man or woman?
Male. Hence people thinking I can't have pink.
Quote from: Jihelu on May 28, 2015, 08:46:25 PM
Quote from: Asmoth on May 28, 2015, 08:39:11 PM
Quote from: Jihelu on May 28, 2015, 08:34:13 PM
IRL wise I've heard and seen women degrade them selves more than I've seen men. I also get shit on for having a pink phone case all the time. The fuck is wrong with me having something pretty?
In game wise I don't think I've ever seen this happen.
Just to understand the context... Are you a man or woman?
Male. Hence people thinking I can't have pink.
Interesting...
Quote from: Jihelu on May 28, 2015, 08:34:13 PM
IRL wise I've heard and seen women degrade them selves more than I've seen men. I also get shit on for having a pink phone case all the time. The fuck is wrong with me having something pretty?
In game wise I don't think I've ever seen this happen.
I know where you're coming from, but just be wary. The whole 'women are worse to women' thing, is a trope that's been historically abused to justify taking their concerns less than seriously. I wouldn't even comment on this, but I mentioned it playfully in passing to a cousin many years ago, and had my head torn off.
I don't use it to make their concerns less serious I think. I just know some very self sexist women I guess would be the way to say it?
Female friend of mine: "Women shouldn't be president because ...-insert x reason here about being emotional?"
Like..what? Why? Why would someone say that? Thats like saying men shouldn't be president because they will beat the shit out of someone or something.
I don't know.
I should probably be more on topic.
Yeah aren't we supposed to be discussing sexism in game, or something? I dunno.
I know sometimes I feel I'm treating certain characters different than I rationally should because my hindbrain's telling me "That character's attractive, you should pay more attention to them." It helps me to be aware of that voice so I can try and tell it to shut up and ask "Would my character think that, too?" and "SHOULD he think that?" I try not to judge leaders, or merchants, or minions effectiveness based on how they stack up against what's expected of their sex (since all those expectations are from the real world, and don't belong in Zalanthas): I try to judge them based on their effectiveness relative to everyone else in the game world, regardless of plumbing.
I try not to think of things in terms of masculine or feminine, since I'm not convinced those concepts actually exist in Zalanthas. I prefer to draw on the racial stereotypes we have in game. A person's not bitchy, they're breedy. Is that wrong too? Sometimes I think it is, but that's because I don't quite know how well the breed mindset is widely known and stereotyped in the game world.
But since I'm a reasonably heterosexual male, I still find it easier to remember female character's names, just like I do in real life. That I chalk up to subconscious prioritizing.
Also, a plainly-described but well-played, engaging character is going be a thousand times as more attractive just to be around than any 40-line jawdropper.
Quote from: LauraMars on May 28, 2015, 08:12:55 PM
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/I-give-up.gif)
(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11011943_10152762260157541_8403057391923731476_n.jpg?oh=60b348d121a7e729da773256a6e5c8b0&oe=55F59079)
Quote from: Clearsighted on May 28, 2015, 07:45:42 PM
Quote from: Jihelu on May 28, 2015, 07:32:18 PM
So is there like straight up no ic difference between men and women in Zalananthatatas?
Because in real life, you know, women (Usually) hit less hard than men.
That sweet testosterone.
Helps me be manly.
Or maybe I'm just stupid.
I also know there isn't an ooc difference.
It's really better to not think about it too much. Of course IRL, the average man is to the average woman, what a mul is to a human in Zalanthas. (If you don't believe me, ask any woman who has ever trained in combat sports). There are many biological reasons for this, some of which relate to the capacity for childbirth.
But Zalanthas is a fantasy society, with fantasy tropes, and as such, it's best interpreted in that light. Think of it as Joss Whedon logic (Joss is famous for tiny heroines who are super agile and powerful hand to hand combatants). Nothing wrong with it.
Just a quick little note; Zalanthan men and women are the same size. Players might not follow this, but in the broader world you're just as likely to see a hulking female brute as a hulking male brute (and they'll be the same height and weight).
I play what I want to. Sometimes people try to put the pc into ridiculous OOC stereotypical projections based on how they look/how old they are/race/gender/etc. Expect that if it looks like the pc is playing too into it, there's probably an angle. There are a lot of players who subscribe to the theory 'fool the player, fool the character'. All it takes is underestimating someone 1 time.
The pictures on the sight actually do a good job of showing both genders.
Though I think in the pictures the females are slightly smaller.
Quote from: Narf on May 28, 2015, 09:26:46 PM
Quote from: Clearsighted on May 28, 2015, 07:45:42 PM
Quote from: Jihelu on May 28, 2015, 07:32:18 PM
So is there like straight up no ic difference between men and women in Zalananthatatas?
Because in real life, you know, women (Usually) hit less hard than men.
That sweet testosterone.
Helps me be manly.
Or maybe I'm just stupid.
I also know there isn't an ooc difference.
It's really better to not think about it too much. Of course IRL, the average man is to the average woman, what a mul is to a human in Zalanthas. (If you don't believe me, ask any woman who has ever trained in combat sports). There are many biological reasons for this, some of which relate to the capacity for childbirth.
But Zalanthas is a fantasy society, with fantasy tropes, and as such, it's best interpreted in that light. Think of it as Joss Whedon logic (Joss is famous for tiny heroines who are super agile and powerful hand to hand combatants). Nothing wrong with it.
Just a quick little note; Zalanthan men and women are the same size. Players might not follow this, but in the broader world you're just as likely to see a hulking female brute as a hulking male brute (and they'll be the same height and weight).
Yep. I've heard this said. And I'm all for erasing the gender gap in Zalanthas society. But I will continue being unable to process this or incorporate it into my roleplay. I know too much about biology in order to take it seriously. And actually, it disturbs me just thinking about it. And also? Maybe 1% of the playerbase plays like this.
I'll just continue treating the society, and the gender's relative physical prowess, as an accumulation of many factors, including twitch speed, reaction time and agility, with a healthy dose of D&Disms (no gender-segregated stats there) and most works of fiction, whether fantasy or science fiction, and its many depictions of badass females. It's perfectly plausible to believe in a world where survival conditions are so harsh, that evolution has selected for women who make the most of their less bulky physiques.
However, I am unable to mentally assimilate a society in my mind where everyone is homogenized to some ridiculous extent, and honestly, I think you're wrong. And I think whoever claimed the above was perhaps well-intentioned, but misguided. We don't need to go to ridiculous extremes to accomplish what common sense an a heads up can take care of.
In any case, it's stupid unless the world is changed to where men can give birth, because such obvious biological differences as there are between the sexes, revolve around reproductive functions. You can't have it all. (INB4 'it's magick!')
Meanwhile, I'm fine with stuff like 'strength' being agglomerated into a whole range of physical fitness gauges, and female chars being just as ass-kicking as they are in any other fantasy medium, without going completely derp about it. I do not think Narf is echoing a staff/official position on the matter. If he is, staff has certainly never done anything to propagate or draw attention to it. Certainly, 95% of every NPC I've ever seen, or staff plot character, has lined up with conventional expectations, and if it subverted them, was directly remarked upon as 'unusually so'.
(EDIT: And it's a bit sad that some people can't fathom a society that is equal between the genders, without basically turning women into hulking men. There are plenty of RL societies on the fringes of survival and hardship that have managed something close to it, like Scythian horse warriors).
The way I've always viewed it is more so that anf biological differences in sex simply don't matter.
Something such as, "You hit like a girl." Holds about as much weight as an insult in Zalanthas as telling someone they have blue eyes. Such a line in the game world should likely be responded to with, "So what?" Because it's not an insult, hasn't ever been one, and never will be on in the future of the world. Zalanthan society has simply never put that kind of weight on gender differences.
Men in Zalanthas don't make a dollar an hour more. Women in Zalanthas don't get catcalled on a walk down the street any more than men do. People are simply worth what they are as an individual, and not as a gender, and the average majority on either side likely could give a damn less, because they were never, ever raised with such imprinting on their thoughts.
It's a very hard concept for most to take hold of, because of the way we were raised, and the severity in which most of us do, or don't view such thoughts and concepts. Gender inequality just simply doesn't exist, because everyone makes their path, or fails, based on who they are, not what they are.
As for seeing it in game, I've ran across the occasional instance of it, such as, "A woman doing this? Hah!" or, "That's MY woman." And at least one of those was from an established player. I didn't report it, (I perhaps should have? It just didn't strike me as too dire.) just rolled my eyes and had my character call them a weirdo.
Quote from: Clearsighted on May 28, 2015, 09:45:58 PM
Quote from: Narf on May 28, 2015, 09:26:46 PM
Quote from: Clearsighted on May 28, 2015, 07:45:42 PM
Quote from: Jihelu on May 28, 2015, 07:32:18 PM
So is there like straight up no ic difference between men and women in Zalananthatatas?
Because in real life, you know, women (Usually) hit less hard than men.
That sweet testosterone.
Helps me be manly.
Or maybe I'm just stupid.
I also know there isn't an ooc difference.
It's really better to not think about it too much. Of course IRL, the average man is to the average woman, what a mul is to a human in Zalanthas. (If you don't believe me, ask any woman who has ever trained in combat sports). There are many biological reasons for this, some of which relate to the capacity for childbirth.
But Zalanthas is a fantasy society, with fantasy tropes, and as such, it's best interpreted in that light. Think of it as Joss Whedon logic (Joss is famous for tiny heroines who are super agile and powerful hand to hand combatants). Nothing wrong with it.
Just a quick little note; Zalanthan men and women are the same size. Players might not follow this, but in the broader world you're just as likely to see a hulking female brute as a hulking male brute (and they'll be the same height and weight).
Yep. I've heard this said. And I'm all for erasing the gender gap in Zalanthas society. But I will continue being unable to process this or incorporate it into my roleplay. I know too much about biology in order to take it seriously. And actually, it disturbs me just thinking about it. And also? Maybe 1% of the playerbase plays like this.
I'll just continue treating the society, and the gender's relative physical prowess, as an accumulation of many factors, including twitch speed, reaction time and agility, with a healthy dose of D&Disms (no gender-segregated stats there) and most works of fiction, whether fantasy or science fiction, and its many depictions of badass females. It's perfectly plausible to believe in a world where survival conditions are so harsh, that evolution has selected for women who make the most of their less bulky physiques.
However, I am unable to mentally assimilate a society in my mind where everyone is homogenized to some ridiculous extent, and honestly, I think you're wrong. And I think whoever claimed the above was perhaps well-intentioned, but misguided. We don't need to go to ridiculous extremes to accomplish what common sense an a heads up can take care of.
In any case, it's stupid unless the world is changed to where men can give birth, because such obvious biological differences as there are between the sexes, revolve around reproductive functions. You can't have it all. (INB4 'it's magick!')
Meanwhile, I'm fine with stuff like 'strength' being agglomerated into a whole range of physical fitness gauges, and female chars being just as ass-kicking as they are in any other fantasy medium, without going completely derp about it. I do not think Narf is echoing a staff/official position on the matter. If he is, staff has certainly never done anything to propagate or draw attention to it. Certainly, 95% of every NPC I've ever seen, or staff plot character, has lined up with conventional expectations, and if it subverted them, was directly remarked upon as 'unusually so'.
(EDIT: And it's a bit sad that some people can't fathom a society that is equal between the genders, without basically turning women into hulking men. There are plenty of RL societies on the fringes of survival and hardship that have managed something close to it, like Scythian horse warriors).
On my phone so I can't edit out all the quotes that don't matter. But in reference to rl societies like horse warriors and whatever else tribe in the Amazon you're quoting...
That is sorta irrelevant because we have players from all over the world, but I highly doubt that any abborigines or Zulu tribesmen are playing arm.
So it is realistic to think that civilized, science believing men and women can have difficulty where a rural nobody tribesman wouldn't.
Quote from: Asmoth on May 28, 2015, 10:11:42 PM
On my phone so I can't edit out all the quotes that don't matter. But in reference to rl societies like horse warriors and whatever else tribe in the Amazon you're quoting...
That is sorta irrelevant because we have players from all over the world, but I highly doubt that any abborigines or Zulu tribesmen are playing arm.
So it is realistic to think that civilized, science believing men and women can have difficulty where a rural nobody tribesman wouldn't.
Quality discourse, well said.
Quote from: Clearsighted on May 28, 2015, 09:45:58 PM
Yep. I've heard this said. And I'm all for erasing the gender gap in Zalanthas society. But I will continue being unable to process this or incorporate it into my roleplay. I know too much about biology in order to take it seriously. And actually, it disturbs me just thinking about it. And also? Maybe 1% of the playerbase plays like this.
I'm not really sure what you mean about knowing too much about biology to think males and females would be the same size. If you were starting a species from scratch, predicting it's evolving pattern of sexual dimorphism would be incredibly difficult. Even other primates, our closest evolutionary cousins, have a pretty drastic range of sexual dimorphism.
What's more, due to facing a near extinction event in our evolutionary history, and generally low worldwide populations during our evolution, a tremendous amount of our characteristics are actually a result of genetic drift as opposed to natural selection. Given the broad variety of sexual dimorphism in other primate species, it's not at all outside the realm of possibility that our own is due to chance events.
Quote from: Clearsighted on May 28, 2015, 09:45:58 PM
However, I am unable to mentally assimilate a society in my mind where everyone is homogenized to some ridiculous extent, and honestly, I think you're wrong. And I think whoever claimed the above was perhaps well-intentioned, but misguided. We don't need to go to ridiculous extremes to accomplish what common sense an a heads up can take care of.
Lack of sexual dimorphism is not the same as homogenized. They're barely related in fact.
Quote from: Clearsighted on May 28, 2015, 09:45:58 PM
Meanwhile, I'm fine with stuff like 'strength' being agglomerated into a whole range of physical fitness gauges, and female chars being just as ass-kicking as they are in any other fantasy medium, without going completely derp about it. I do not think Narf is echoing a staff/official position on the matter. If he is, staff has certainly never done anything to propagate or draw attention to it. Certainly, 95% of every NPC I've ever seen, or staff plot character, has lined up with conventional expectations, and if it subverted them, was directly remarked upon as 'unusually so'.
I believe Sanvean used to talk about this a fair bit. You're right though, I haven't seen mention of it in a while. Note though that the helpfiles only give one size range for each race.
Quote from: Clearsighted on May 28, 2015, 09:45:58 PM
(EDIT: And it's a bit sad that some people can't fathom a society that is equal between the genders, without basically turning women into hulking men. There are plenty of RL societies on the fringes of survival and hardship that have managed something close to it, like Scythian horse warriors).
The hulking women was one example. Another that would bring the size ranges into line would be small and slight men (by Earth standards). Is this equally hard to conceptualize?
I was enjoying this thread until it degenerated off-topic :(
I am Pale Horse and I've played pretty characters, ugly characters, average characters, f-me characters, etc.
I feel no guilt. I'm playing in a world that, let's be honest, has blatant ties with Dark Sun, a D&D setting that's made no bones about how the harshness of the environment and the poisoning of the ecosystem by magic has forced a biological change (yes, a wizard did it) on men and women off all races to where there isn't a biological difference in strength, stamina, etc.
Armageddon follows this same trope and underlines the rule that there is no sexism. There's no IG reasoning given, it is an OOC rule. Don't like it, too bad. It's the rule. Can't fully wrap your head around it/accept it? That's fine, so long as your leave your preconceived notions out of the game. I do not recall seeing a "no sexism - except for this" exception to this rule.
Quote from: Case on May 28, 2015, 10:13:22 PM
Quote from: Asmoth on May 28, 2015, 10:11:42 PM
On my phone so I can't edit out all the quotes that don't matter. But in reference to rl societies like horse warriors and whatever else tribe in the Amazon you're quoting...
That is sorta irrelevant because we have players from all over the world, but I highly doubt that any abborigines or Zulu tribesmen are playing arm.
So it is realistic to think that civilized, science believing men and women can have difficulty where a rural nobody tribesman wouldn't.
Quality discourse, well said.
I'm not really sure what he's getting at or disagreeing with. Civilization and science has nothing to do with some people being unable to grasp a gender-equal society without men and women being hulking clones of each other.
It's perfectly valid to posit that RL shows us that there is a historical basis for equality in violence/warfare-driven societies, even without taking into account fantasy considerations.
Anyhow, unless it's decided human reproduction happens via magick, then the whole issue is a non-starter. Men and women look the way they do because they are mammals, and Armageddon has mammals as a defined species, just like it has reptilians and insectoids, and mammal reproduction makes certain demands on the body.
Quote from: Pale Horse on May 28, 2015, 10:48:41 PM
Armageddon follows this same trope and underlines the rule that there is no sexism. There's no IG reasoning given, it is an OOC rule. Don't like it, too bad. It's the rule. Can't fully wrap your head around it/accept it? That's fine, so long as your leave your preconceived notions out of the game. I do not recall seeing a "no sexism - except for this" exception to this rule.
Equality in strength, agility, endurance, social standing, or by any coded metric or RP opportunity you would like to truck out is fine.
Claiming that all men and women of Zalanthas are equal in size and shape, and that there is just as many hulking female bruisers as there are men - when every single facet of the game world denies such a remarkable biological homogeneity, whether in descriptions, NPCs, or even in the characters both players and staff to choose to portray, then we have a serious problem.
If you think that's 'making an exception to sexism', then whatever. By that definition, the game is sexist because men can't ICly get pregnant and give birth too.
I've seen maybe one female bruiser NPC in game, and about 200+ described as lithe, pretty, ravishing, slim, supple, slender. And I've seen far more male NPCs described in brawny terms than as slim and supple. Same goes for PCs. Same goes for every plot character ever introduced.
If you think it should be otherwise, then create a character that reinforces such a reality in game instead of the opposite. Be the hulking, bearded woman. Petition staff to create more thematically appropriate NPCs. In other words,
be the change. But I suspect that the vast majority of people do not want to do that, and so it will continue remaining a weird GDB talking point and vehicle for casual accusations of sexism.
Quote from: Clearsighted on May 28, 2015, 10:52:06 PM
Quote from: Case on May 28, 2015, 10:13:22 PM
Quote from: Asmoth on May 28, 2015, 10:11:42 PM
On my phone so I can't edit out all the quotes that don't matter. But in reference to rl societies like horse warriors and whatever else tribe in the Amazon you're quoting...
That is sorta irrelevant because we have players from all over the world, but I highly doubt that any abborigines or Zulu tribesmen are playing arm.
So it is realistic to think that civilized, science believing men and women can have difficulty where a rural nobody tribesman wouldn't.
Quality discourse, well said.
I'm not really sure what he's getting at or disagreeing with. Civilization and science has nothing to do with some people being unable to grasp a gender-equal society without men and women being hulking clones of each other.
It's perfectly valid to posit that RL shows us that there is a historical basis for equality in violence/warfare-driven societies, even without taking into account fantasy considerations.
Anyhow, unless it's decided human reproduction happens via magick, then the whole issue is a non-starter. Men and women look the way they do because they are mammals, and Armageddon has mammals as a defined species, just like it has reptilians and insectoids, and mammal reproduction makes certain demands on the body.
Quote from: Pale Horse on May 28, 2015, 10:48:41 PM
Armageddon follows this same trope and underlines the rule that there is no sexism. There's no IG reasoning given, it is an OOC rule. Don't like it, too bad. It's the rule. Can't fully wrap your head around it/accept it? That's fine, so long as your leave your preconceived notions out of the game. I do not recall seeing a "no sexism - except for this" exception to this rule.
Equality in strength, agility, endurance, social standing, or by any coded metric or RP opportunity you would like to truck out is fine. Claiming that all men and women of Zalanthas are equal in size and shape, and that there is just as many hulking female bruisers as there are men - when every single facet of the game world denies such a remarkable biological homogeneity, whether in descriptions, NPCs, or even in the characters both players and staff to choose to portray, then we have a serious problem.
If you think that's 'making an exception to sexism', then whatever. By that definition, the game is sexist because men can't ICly get pregnant and give birth too.
I've seen maybe one female bruiser NPC in game, and about 200+ described as lithe, pretty, ravishing, slim, supple, slender. And I've seen far more male NPCs described in brawny terms than as slim and supple. Same goes for PCs. Same goes for every plot character ever introduced.
To break this down to be as simple as I think is possible.
It's designed that way because they want it to be, it's not about being equal in anything more than skill stat means. A commoner can advance to whatever level of social or economical power based on their skill, some luck and other factors.
A woman being the only one able to play pregnant characters has about as much to do with their oocly devised equality as a six foot tall man being able to reach the brim of a basket ball hoop where my 5 9 frame can't. It just is what it is.
No amount of arguing, no amount of rationalizing and no amount of bitching will change this, ever.
So while I'm all for the philosophical conversation about why it's unrealistic and why men and women are different. As Pale horse says, it's just the way it is. Don't like it, tough titties.
People don't complain about you being pretty when you're kanking them.
I think the only time there would be different treatment of men and women were if said group were compromised of such a low population that women were more carefully protected as child-bearers. Even then, I think they would be treated better and deferred to, as the future of the tribe.
Quote from: Tetra on May 28, 2015, 11:06:49 PM
People don't complain about you being pretty when you're kanking them.
This is something that bothers me more than any sexism... Mudsex, I get extremely grossed out when it's presented to me in game. There are some things I don't want to role play. Just call me the fade to black man in game and save the sex for if any of you meet me in real life! (Call me if you're ever in Cleveland!) boom chicka wah wah. (Kidding, but not really if you're hot...)
Quote from: Asmoth on May 28, 2015, 11:05:48 PM
To break this down to be as simple as I think is possible.
It's designed that way because they want it to be, it's not about being equal in anything more than skill stat means. A commoner can advance to whatever level of social or economical power based on their skill, some luck and other factors.
A woman being the only one able to play pregnant characters has about as much to do with their oocly devised equality as a six foot tall man being able to reach the brim of a basket ball hoop where my 5 9 frame can't. It just is what it is.
No amount of arguing, no amount of rationalizing and no amount of bitching will change this, ever.
So while I'm all for the philosophical conversation about why it's unrealistic and why men and women are different. As Pale horse says, it's just the way it is. Don't like it, tough titties.
That's not the way it is though. It's never been propagated, or treated that way in game. I've never seen staff take a stance on this issue. It's only been tossed lightly around on the GDB, usually appearing on the 7th-8th page of a discussion much like this.
I don't know where you were going here with your other diversions. I'm referring explicitly to Narf's assertion that male and female humans in Zalanthas were physically homogeneous, appearance-wise, with as many hulking men as there are hulking women. I've never seen staff do anything to spread this notion. Maybe a post by Sanvean circa 2005 or some such hinted at it.
I have seen them go to great lengths to assert that men and women are socially equal, and considered physically on par, but that's a fundamental in just about all D&D inspired fantasy settings. But never that they were aesthetically similar.
My concern is that people who take this line are perpetuating the GDB equivalent of an urban myth, which the game world does not substantiate, whether PC or NPC wise, or in any character ever introduced in any bit of Armageddon-related fiction, (staff written or otherwise) without special attention called to it, such as 'unusually tall for a woman'.
Quote from: Clearsighted on May 28, 2015, 11:14:27 PM
Quote from: Asmoth on May 28, 2015, 11:05:48 PM
To break this down to be as simple as I think is possible.
It's designed that way because they want it to be, it's not about being equal in anything more than skill stat means. A commoner can advance to whatever level of social or economical power based on their skill, some luck and other factors.
A woman being the only one able to play pregnant characters has about as much to do with their oocly devised equality as a six foot tall man being able to reach the brim of a basket ball hoop where my 5 9 frame can't. It just is what it is.
No amount of arguing, no amount of rationalizing and no amount of bitching will change this, ever.
So while I'm all for the philosophical conversation about why it's unrealistic and why men and women are different. As Pale horse says, it's just the way it is. Don't like it, tough titties.
That's not the way it is though. It's never been propagated, or treated that way in game. I've never seen staff take a stance on this issue. It's only been tossed lightly around on the GDB, usually appearing on the 7th-8th page of a discussion much like this.
I don't know where you were going here with your other diversions. I'm referring explicitly to Narf's assertion that male and female humans in Zalanthas were physically homogeneous, appearance-wise, with as many hulking men as there are hulking women. I've never seen staff do anything to propagate this notion.
I have seen them go to great lengths to assert that men and women are socially equal, and considered physically on par, but that's a fundamental in just about all D&D inspired fantasy settings. But never that they were aesthetically similar.
My concern is that people who take this line are perpetuating the GDB equivalent of an urban myth, which the game world does not substantiate, whether PC or NPC wise, or in any character ever introduced in any bit of Armageddon-related fiction, (staff written or otherwise) without special attention called to it, such as an 'unusually tall for a woman'.
So you're arguing semantics and policy versus real life game interactions because you've never personally witnessed a staff member support the fact men and women (have the potential) to be the exact same?
Want staff to weigh in on this? File a request under question.
Now I want my helper pay for doing all this hard work... I'm so tired.
Edit: If you ever have seen a humongous female body builder, I would be willing to bet there are guys who are into that and that those women are bigger than quite a few men.
If you want someone to aquiess that you're technically right in how most of the female characters are and that most of them are f me looking or average, sure we can do that, but it doesn't change a thing of how it's viewed or designed on an arm level.
Quote from: Asmoth on May 28, 2015, 11:19:59 PM
So you're arguing semantics and policy versus real life game interactions because you've never personally witnessed a staff member support the fact men and women (have the potential) to be the exact same?
Want staff to weigh in on this? File a request under question.
Now I want my helper pay for doing all this hard work... I'm so tired.
You're condescending to me as if you were supporting some official position, and not an odd-ball fringe theory that gets tossed around on the GDB forums once every couple years. You have no idea what policy is, and if I were to seek clarification on policy, I wouldn't seek it from you.
Nor am I arguing that men and women don't have the potential to be the same. There are mutations in Zalanthas, anything can happen.
What I am saying is that claiming males and females are physically the same size and shape, with an equal number of hulking, bruiser men as there are hulking women, and as many slim and dainty men as there are slim and dainty women, is a falsehood. That it is in fact, a misrepresentation of Armageddon's gender policy.Armageddon's staff have always been crystal clear that men and women had the same potential - as they do stat wise in every D&D setting, and most movies or fantasy books. And there are no 'throws like a girl' stereotypes. But I don't know how that got transformed into the comedic notion of extreme aesthetic homogeneity.
If you think it's otherwise, then you should request about it. The game world already represents how I think it is.
Quote from: Clearsighted on May 28, 2015, 11:29:58 PM
Quote from: Asmoth on May 28, 2015, 11:19:59 PM
So you're arguing semantics and policy versus real life game interactions because you've never personally witnessed a staff member support the fact men and women (have the potential) to be the exact same?
Want staff to weigh in on this? File a request under question.
Now I want my helper pay for doing all this hard work... I'm so tired.
You're condescending to me as if you were supporting some official position, and not an odd-ball fringe theory that gets tossed around on the GDB forums once every couple years. You have no idea what policy is, and if I were to seek clarification on policy, I wouldn't seek it from you.
Nor am I arguing that men and women don't have the potential to be the same. There are mutations in Zalanthas, anything can happen.
What I am saying is that claiming males and females are physically the same size and shape, with an equal number of hulking, bruiser men as there are hulking women, and as many slim and dainty men as there are slim and dainty women, is a falsehood. That it is in fact, a misrepresentation of Armageddon's gender policy.
Armageddon's staff have always been crystal clear that men and women had the same potential - as they do stat wise in every D&D setting, and most movies or fantasy books. And there are no 'throws like a girl' stereotypes. But I don't know how that got transformed into the comedic notion of extreme aesthetic homogeneity.
If you think it's otherwise, then you should request about it. The game world already represents how I think it is.
You're getting a little heated over this and I'll leave it at this, the players are an infentecimal fraction of the world, the npcs a bigger fraction and the vnpcs the grand majority.
I mean no condescension at all, I was merely trying to put across with metephors and anecdotes that this is one of those things that ultimately doesn't matter beyond the word of the rules/policy whatever you wanna call it say they are the same.
You don't see it in game? I do I see it in all the vnpcs of the salt flats grebbing with me, all the hardened lumberjacks toiling with me, even when I don't have an exceptional and well thought out player like yourself next to me, I still have them, those women as big as men...
Quote from: Asmoth on May 28, 2015, 11:36:06 PM
Quote from: Clearsighted on May 28, 2015, 11:29:58 PM
Quote from: Asmoth on May 28, 2015, 11:19:59 PM
So you're arguing semantics and policy versus real life game interactions because you've never personally witnessed a staff member support the fact men and women (have the potential) to be the exact same?
Want staff to weigh in on this? File a request under question.
Now I want my helper pay for doing all this hard work... I'm so tired.
You're condescending to me as if you were supporting some official position, and not an odd-ball fringe theory that gets tossed around on the GDB forums once every couple years. You have no idea what policy is, and if I were to seek clarification on policy, I wouldn't seek it from you.
Nor am I arguing that men and women don't have the potential to be the same. There are mutations in Zalanthas, anything can happen.
What I am saying is that claiming males and females are physically the same size and shape, with an equal number of hulking, bruiser men as there are hulking women, and as many slim and dainty men as there are slim and dainty women, is a falsehood. That it is in fact, a misrepresentation of Armageddon's gender policy.
Armageddon's staff have always been crystal clear that men and women had the same potential - as they do stat wise in every D&D setting, and most movies or fantasy books. And there are no 'throws like a girl' stereotypes. But I don't know how that got transformed into the comedic notion of extreme aesthetic homogeneity.
If you think it's otherwise, then you should request about it. The game world already represents how I think it is.
You're getting a little heated over this and I'll leave it at this, the players are an infentecimal fraction of the world, the npcs a bigger fraction and the vnpcs the grand majority.
I mean no condescension at all, I was merely trying to put across with metephors and anecdotes that this is one of those things that ultimately doesn't matter beyond the word of the rules/policy whatever you wanna call it say they are the same.
You don't see it in game? I do I see it in all the vnpcs of the salt flats grebbing with me, all the hardened lumberjacks toiling with me, even when I don't have an exceptional and well thought out player like yourself next to me, I still have them, those women as big as men...
Disagreeing with how you are representing Armageddon policy does not make me 'heated'. But I agree the discussion has run its course for now.
ABORT THREAD
(http://41.media.tumblr.com/46f2a7c91c979a33392690788e898d3c/tumblr_np3ghtuH881rre708o1_540.jpg) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkCpG35v65k)
By the way, fuck Evershine, Tuluk's official theme song is now Empire of the Sun. (i pshopped this album cover for ya'll)
and on topic, I have I have absolutely no prettiness guilt.
Edit: Click the album cover for the songs
I've said before that one way(not the only way) to solve the whole gender thing is for people to stop playing every other she-character as a merchant, magicker, aide, whatever, and make them all sweet and cuddly.
Play some kind of mean, warrior/ranger, tough woman instead, and then the whole 'no sexism' rule of the game will be easier to play out.
I do my utmost best to adhere to that, and do fairly good of a job at it as far as I can tell, but let's not pretend that part of the problem is kiiiiiinda how so few female characters are guild_warrior in the first place.
Quote from: Patuk on May 29, 2015, 05:04:05 AM
I've said before that one way(not the only way) to solve the whole gender thing is for people to stop playing every other she-character as a merchant, magicker, aide, whatever, and make them all sweet and cuddly.
Play some kind of mean, warrior/ranger, tough woman instead, and then the whole 'no sexism' rule of the game will be easier to play out.
I do my utmost best to adhere to that, and do fairly good of a job at it as far as I can tell, but let's not pretend that part of the problem is kiiiiiinda how so few female characters are guild_warrior in the first place.
I'd play more warriors if they had other skills than just combat shit. I hate combat. I shouldn't have to play something I dislike in order to make someone else feel like they finally have a compelling enough reason to follow the documentation that already exists.
...? Are female warriors and rangers really that rare?
Are we only counting warriors here?
Quote from: aeglaeca on May 29, 2015, 05:27:07 AM
...? Are female warriors and rangers really that rare?
Are we only counting warriors here?
They are not rare.
Relatively so at least, in my experience. Bardlyone is also right- you shouldn't have to. It just helps.
Quote from: Patuk on May 29, 2015, 05:49:03 AM
Relatively so at least, in my experience. Bardlyone is also right- you shouldn't have to. It just helps.
So as usual, it's the players of female PCs' fault for playing characters that are wholly legitimate (soft, cuddly, gicks whatever) and not specifically making warriors and rangers to embody an ideal of masculinity that's ridiculous enough even for men?
If a female character is mean, I just assume it's Is Friday.
Quote from: Case on May 29, 2015, 06:03:16 AM
Quote from: Patuk on May 29, 2015, 05:49:03 AM
Relatively so at least, in my experience. Bardlyone is also right- you shouldn't have to. It just helps.
So as usual, it's the players of female PCs' fault for playing characters that are wholly legitimate (soft, cuddly, gicks whatever) and not specifically making warriors and rangers to embody an ideal of masculinity that's ridiculous enough even for men?
Not only is this true, I think it just helps to point out how this, and what was said earlier about how feminine male pcs get less shit/funny looks/sexism/etc, only reinforce each other. That's one of the ways that sexism is deeply ingrained into society. The same artificial heart that saves like 89% of male patients only saves 20% of female patients, because everyone works on a male baseline and assumes female is a deviation, rather than that they're both valid. I could go on for days about that, though.
I took care to not say anything of the sort, but if you want to run with your strawman and misrepresent my point, I won't stop you.
The fact (if it is true) that female PCs occupy a higher percentage of less-gritty social roles than male PCs does not excuse IG misogyny.
The solution to PCs not respecting a woman's authority isn't adding more she-hulks to the game. The solution is just fucking RESPECT HER AUTHORITAH!
Quote from: Patuk on May 29, 2015, 07:12:48 AM
I took care to not say anything of the sort, but if you want to run with your strawman and misrepresent my point, I won't stop you.
It's what you said, so explain better? I didn't use a strawman.
Quote from: Patuk on May 29, 2015, 05:49:03 AM
Relatively so at least, in my experience. Bardlyone is also right- you shouldn't have to. It just helps.
There are fewer she-fighters than he-fighters, and female characters in general have a lower percentage of warriors, at least in my experience.
Bardlyone is correct, female characters being treated properly(or male ones) isn't on their players to bring about.
That said, if the relative amount of female warriors would increase, it'd probably make things a little better at least. It is
a solution, not
the solution.
Quote from: Patuk on May 29, 2015, 07:27:14 AM
Quote from: Patuk on May 29, 2015, 05:49:03 AM
Relatively so at least, in my experience. Bardlyone is also right- you shouldn't have to. It just helps.
There are fewer she-fighters than he-fighters, and female characters in general have a lower percentage of warriors, at least in my experience.
Bardlyone is correct, female characters being treated properly(or male ones) isn't on their players to bring about.
That said, if the relative amount of female warriors would increase, it'd probably make things a little better at least. It is a solution, not the solution.
How is fewer female fighters (and we have no stats on this or anything) an issue exactly?
When the ratio of soldiers/mercenaries/whatevers to aides/crafters/whatevers is skewed towards the latter more than the former, you can mildly justify saying being a female fighter is strange by pointing to every other woman you know being a tressy-tressed someone in the Red's. It's the same argument behind not being afraid of messing with elves because no tribes exist, or assuming PCs who swear they are humble grocers/farmers/whatever must be magickers or somesuch because these are uncoded and unprofitable professions.
Quote from: Patuk on May 29, 2015, 07:34:38 AM
When the ratio of soldiers/mercenaries/whatevers to aides/crafters/whatevers is skewed towards the latter more than the former, you can mildly justify saying being a female fighter is strange by pointing to every other woman you know being a tressy-tressed someone in the Red's. It's the same argument behind not being afraid of messing with elves because no tribes exist, or assuming PCs who swear they are humble grocers/farmers/whatever must be magickers or somesuch because these are uncoded and unprofitable professions.
Uh yeah ok. I don't think you can mildly justify it. Gender roles are expectations to conform to a set of behaviours, not just traditional ones. And as usual, it's always the women who are under scrutiny - not the majority men playing tough types, who could just as easily play aides/crafters/whatevers. Even got a good ol' stereotype in with tressy-tressed! Nice. If only players of female PCs wanted to be chisel-chins like all the badass guys eh eh.
If anybody's RP is that lazy where anything you've stated is legitimate play in their book, they're shit at Arm and roleplay.
Okay then.
Going back to what I said earlier. You're never going to make everyone happy. Make great pcs and enjoy playing them. If other people don't recognize your brilliance, fuck em. Assholes all of them.
Quote from: Barzalene on May 29, 2015, 08:35:13 AM
Going back to what I said earlier. You're never going to make everyone happy. Make great pcs and enjoy playing them. If other people don't recognize your brilliance, fuck em. Assholes all of them.
This.
And no matter what pc's people choose to play, follow documentation as far as how the world works. Then treat each pc accordingly. All this side discussion is literally kind of a pointless one.
Interesting note: In order to avoid playing perfect looking pcs that weren't deformed, I started giving each of my characters at least one fundamental flaw. Then there was a recent article that came out talking about how every male f-me has one characteristic flaw. I'VE BEEN DOING IT WRONG.
Quote from: Armaddict on May 29, 2015, 10:07:21 AM
Quote from: Barzalene on May 29, 2015, 08:35:13 AM
Going back to what I said earlier. You're never going to make everyone happy. Make great pcs and enjoy playing them. If other people don't recognize your brilliance, fuck em. Assholes all of them.
This.
And no matter what pc's people choose to play, follow documentation as far as how the world works. Then treat each pc accordingly. All this side discussion is literally kind of a pointless one.
Interesting note: In order to avoid playing perfect looking pcs that weren't deformed, I started giving each of my characters at least one fundamental flaw. Then there was a recent article that came out talking about how every male f-me has one characteristic flaw. I'VE BEEN DOING IT WRONG.
One word for you: Adrien Brody mmmmmmmmmmmm.
I treat every PC I meet based on "what" they are playing in terms of their role.
If I meet a hardcore warrior woman PC, she gets treated exactly the same way I treat hardcore male PC's, with the exception of the addition of sexual tension to the situation because my PC's aren't gay.
This means she probably will get comments from my PC about being a woman, but geared towards being sexual with her. I also tend to play PC's that prefer to be dominant in the relationship, this means that if I am trying to "get with her", the comments I make about her being a woman are going to be geared towards finding out if she is going to be the submissive one in the relationship, otherwise, I have no interest.
This leads to an interesting situation. I have a PC (mine) that is masculine, has a direct interest in bedding females and only females, and prefers to be the dominant one in the relationship should said relationship happen. Now, this means that the women PC's he takes an interest in are going to pushed towards being what he wants them to be....because he has his own sexual preferences.
I'm not going to treat warrior women the same way I'm going to treat warrior men, mainly due to the fact I don't want to bed warrior men....I don't want to dominate warrior men anywhere but on the battlefield, where as warrior women I also want to dominate in the bedroom, and in our potential intimate relationship roleplay.
This does lead to my PC's often times treating warrior women different from warrior men, at least until my PC determines they aren't going to be compatible with his desires....meaning they aren't going to play the traditional gender role I prefer in real life that most of my PC's just happen to be sexually tuned towards in game.
The great thing about the rules surrounding gender roles and sexism in Armageddon, is they ALSO defend me playing my PC to be attracted to exactly what they want to be attracted to.
My PC's just happen to be attracted to exactly what I'm attracted to IRL....(which I find is the case with most people as well).
To that end, once my PC determines this warrior woman isn't going to be the traditional submissive he desires her to be, he will go on to treating her "like a man"...because she holds no value to him on the sexual front. The sexual aspect of the roleplay is no longer there, and she will get treated just like every warrior male gets treated.
It isn't that my PC is sexist, it's that my PC likes sex. He likes sex a certain way. He is attracted to what he is attracted to. THIS is what causes him to act the way he acts....not because the entire world acts the way he acts.
So, unless playing a man in Armageddon that is attracted to females and likes his mates to be submissive in the relationship is suddenly against the rules.....stop complaining that I treat your female pc's differently. Of course I do...I want to stick my weiner in them and they have to fit a mold for me to do that....I have no desire to stick my weiner in men, so they get treated a tad differently (at least at first).
Your first problem is (almost always) playing exactly what you prefer in real life. Try breaking out of the mold and experimenting with different mindsets to bring a less "real world" flavor to the game. After all, if you just don't enjoy representing the scene if you're submissive, or gay sex squicks you out too much, you can always fade to black.
This is why I fade to black or just avoid romance, period - it's hard to trust that people behind the screen are properly separating game romance from real-life romance.
This is getting a little off topic, though. This is "I feel guilty for playing pretty characters", to which I say:
If you think your characters are coming across as prettier than you intended (this has happened to me), look at your word choice.
If you want to play a character who is pretty, just make sure that the WHY of their beauty makes sense for the world of Zalanthas.
Then, go forth and do your thing, and fuck the haters.
Quote from: Delirium on May 29, 2015, 10:50:09 AM
Your first problem is (almost always) playing exactly what you prefer in real life. Try breaking out of the mold and experimenting with different mindsets to bring a less "real world" flavor to the game. After all, if you just don't enjoy representing the scene if you're submissive, or gay sex squicks you out too much, you can always fade to black.
This is why I fade to black or just avoid romance, period - it's hard to trust that people behind the screen are properly separating game romance from real-life romance.
I don't ask lesbians IRL to roleplay intimate relationships with men in game because I feel I owe the player that courtesy. Including fading to black.
I don't ask gay men IRL to roleplay intimate relationships with women in game because I feel I owe the player that courtesy. Including fading to black.
(I know you feel the same way. I haven't ever known you to do anything that would make a player feel uncomfortable and I know you get what I'm saying here.)
All I want is the same consideration.
Maybe me not wanting to roleplay intimate relationships outside of what I'm comfortable with and prefer in real life makes me a bad roleplayer, and if that is the case...I'm fine with that.
It is about a lot more than the sex. I'm going to fade the sex anyways...even the straight sex. I don't want to roleplay an intimate relationship with a man. The thought makes me uneasy. I don't want to roleplay as a submissive in a straight relationship either...it feels so unnatural to me behind the keyboard that playing the role would just be an un-enjoyable and extremely taxing exercise in making the game a job to me instead of a game.
Spaghetti's straight too, until you dump it in a pot of boiling water!
...Wait, I think I got that slightly wrong.
Seriously, though, everyone should be able to choose to roleplay or not roleplay sex and romance as they see fit, so long as they're paying proper respect to the docs. If you can get yourself to step out of the box and RP someone whose preferences are different than your own, whether you're gay or straight, sub or dom, breast man or leg man IRL, I commend that! However, no one should be pressured to RP sex/romance in a way that makes them feel uncomfortable. I think that's part of the reason for the "no homophobia rule," so that people who experience homophobia in real life are not doomed to relive it IG because they prefer to play according to their RL preferences.
Quote from: Beethoven on May 29, 2015, 11:07:32 AM
Seriously, though, everyone should be able to choose to roleplay or not roleplay sex and romance as they see fit, so long as they're paying proper respect to the docs. If you can get yourself to step out of the box and RP someone whose preferences are different than your own, whether you're gay or straight, sub or dom, breast man or leg man IRL, I commend that! However, no one should be pressured to RP sex/romance in a way that makes them feel uncomfortable. I think that's part of the reason for the "no homophobia rule," so that people who experience homophobia in real life are not doomed to relive it IG because they prefer to play according to their RL preferences.
I agree, the point to my post was that if you feel like your female characters (or your male characters) are getting treated "differently" than the opposite gender....it may very well be because sexual preferences and sexual desires play a huge role in the interactions between both genders.
I think part of the confusion is sexism versus chauvinism too.
Sexist would imply that there are traditional roles that each gender is expected to take. There should be minimal sexism in Zalanthas, because there are no traditional roles to lend to that behavior on a grand scheme. Could there be sexism because of a particular cultural subset? Yes, but it would be out of place when expressed outside that culture. Sexist behavior, outside of that, would be inappropriate to the setting.
Chauvinist would imply treating someone differently (generally in a negative way) because of their gender. A male Arm Corporal not wanting to take orders from a woman is chauvinistic, not sexist. It can't be sexist, because there is no standard that says a woman shouldn't be an Arm Sergeant/Lieutenant/Templar. If there is female merchant that only hires other women because she believes they're better at it, again chauvinistic, not sexist. There is no standard that says a man can't be florist/baker/seamstress.
Chauvinistic behavior should be dealt with just like racist behavior. ICly. If someone consistently plays chauvinistic characters, then that might be a problem, but no more so than someone consistently playing griefers, sociopaths, racists, leches, or any other "negative" personality. Then the player is potentially and repeatedly making the game less fun for other players instead of playing a role.
Quote from: Desertman on May 29, 2015, 11:21:18 AM
Quote from: Beethoven on May 29, 2015, 11:07:32 AM
Seriously, though, everyone should be able to choose to roleplay or not roleplay sex and romance as they see fit, so long as they're paying proper respect to the docs. If you can get yourself to step out of the box and RP someone whose preferences are different than your own, whether you're gay or straight, sub or dom, breast man or leg man IRL, I commend that! However, no one should be pressured to RP sex/romance in a way that makes them feel uncomfortable. I think that's part of the reason for the "no homophobia rule," so that people who experience homophobia in real life are not doomed to relive it IG because they prefer to play according to their RL preferences.
I agree, the point to my post was that if you feel like your female characters (or your male characters) are getting treated "differently" than the opposite gender....it may very well be because sexual preferences and sexual desires play a huge role in the interactions between both genders.
That doesn't bother me.
Its probably just me, and no one else.
Let's say you're playing a political role and you have power. Someone wants something from you. They don't offer you money, or an advantage or collaboration. Instead, with very little effort or actual interest they say: oh what pretty eyes you have!
Quote from: Barzalene on May 29, 2015, 11:26:46 AM
Its probably just me, and no one else.
Let's say you're playing a political role and you have power. Someone wants something from you. They don't offer you money, or an advantage or collaboration. Instead, with very little effort or actual interest they say: oh what pretty eyes you have!
I watch female PCs do this "all the time".
ETA: Generally because sex as a commodity is "free" in Zalanthas and also because it works.
Quote from: Desertman on May 29, 2015, 10:54:19 AM
Maybe me not wanting to roleplay intimate relationships outside of what I'm comfortable with and prefer in real life makes me a bad roleplayer, and if that is the case...I'm fine with that.
It is about a lot more than the sex. I'm going to fade the sex anyways...even the straight sex. I don't want to roleplay an intimate relationship with a man. The thought makes me uneasy. I don't want to roleplay as a submissive in a straight relationship either...it feels so unnatural to me behind the keyboard that playing the role would just be an un-enjoyable and extremely taxing exercise in making the game a job to me instead of a game.
I think it's not that you're a bad role player for not exploring these things with a character so much as you're missing out on nuances you might not have predicted as being entertaining.
Say you were to try a gay character, just for instance. Don't like rping out a relationship with a man? That's fine, throw it all into the VNPC world. Your character does their kissy-kissy off screen. So what do you get out of this? Picture the opportunity to walk into a bar and drunkenly ramble about your relationship problems. It would be a story that would be genuinely new for you to tell as your character, and one ripe for exercising creativity in a way that Character #253 with woman problems just isn't.
Just try it with a throwaway character sometime. Put all the stuff you find awkward in the VNPC world, and run them through the parts of the story that you can engage in comfortable. I'll bet you a hard earned American quarter that you'll have fun.
Quote from: Barzalene on May 29, 2015, 11:26:46 AM
Quote from: Desertman on May 29, 2015, 11:21:18 AM
Quote from: Beethoven on May 29, 2015, 11:07:32 AM
Seriously, though, everyone should be able to choose to roleplay or not roleplay sex and romance as they see fit, so long as they're paying proper respect to the docs. If you can get yourself to step out of the box and RP someone whose preferences are different than your own, whether you're gay or straight, sub or dom, breast man or leg man IRL, I commend that! However, no one should be pressured to RP sex/romance in a way that makes them feel uncomfortable. I think that's part of the reason for the "no homophobia rule," so that people who experience homophobia in real life are not doomed to relive it IG because they prefer to play according to their RL preferences.
I agree, the point to my post was that if you feel like your female characters (or your male characters) are getting treated "differently" than the opposite gender....it may very well be because sexual preferences and sexual desires play a huge role in the interactions between both genders.
That doesn't bother me.
Its probably just me, and no one else.
Let's say you're playing a political role and you have power. Someone wants something from you. They don't offer you money, or an advantage or collaboration. Instead, with very little effort or actual interest they say: oh what pretty eyes you have!
Then don't give them what they want until they give you what you want. If you truly have power, then you will be able to make them realize their mistake...fatally if need be. If you can't, then you really don't have power.
I've had more than a few female PC's try and bang their way into my favor when I was playing powerful characters. Several actually. Actually, I can't even count the number I've had try it and then get extremely angry and offended when it didn't work. That was on a single PC heh. I had so many female characters try and bang their way into my favor, it became extremely entertaining for me to shoot them down constantly and secretly laugh at them, or sometimes openly laugh at them.
I never do. Oh what pretty eyes you have gets you an eye roll. Enjoy. On your way.
In regards to the derail, I will only say that those of you who can play through a filter on the matter of sexual orientation/preferences and not have it feel forced and out of place to you, and tack on some amount of lack of enjoyment to the character...I applaud you.
I've tried, and it isn't that I can't play it, but just that the enjoyment of it is so minimal it can essentially end an otherwise interesting and dynamic character, based solely off of all personal (not necessarily intimate) relationships turning into bumbling mishaps of my RL interpretations of how things might be. Might've come through fine on the other side, but to me, it always felt like a patchwork, makeshift personality that was poorly implemented, and ruined the character altogether.
So again. I applaud you. That shit is hard, and plz don't hate me for not being good at it.
Quote from: Barzalene on May 29, 2015, 11:42:51 AM
I never do. Oh what pretty eyes you have gets you an eye roll. Enjoy. On your way.
Does your character have pretty eyes?
Quote from: Desertman on May 29, 2015, 11:43:30 AM
Quote from: Barzalene on May 29, 2015, 11:42:51 AM
I never do. Oh what pretty eyes you have gets you an eye roll. Enjoy. On your way.
Does your character have pretty eyes?
Did anyone else just hear banjos?
Quote from: Armaddict on May 29, 2015, 11:43:23 AM
In regards to the derail, I will only say that those of you who can play through a filter on the matter of sexual orientation/preferences and not have it feel forced and out of place to you, and tack on some amount of lack of enjoyment to the character...I applaud you.
+1
Quote from: Desertman on May 29, 2015, 11:43:30 AM
Quote from: Barzalene on May 29, 2015, 11:42:51 AM
I never do. Oh what pretty eyes you have gets you an eye roll. Enjoy. On your way.
Does your character have pretty eyes?
They usually have eyes. Two is the average. Apparently the bar is set pretty low.
Quote from: Barzalene on May 29, 2015, 11:42:51 AM
I never do. Oh what pretty eyes you have gets you an eye roll. Enjoy. On your way.
Some of the pickup lines IG should be illegal.
Quote from: Barzalene on May 29, 2015, 11:45:38 AM
Quote from: Desertman on May 29, 2015, 11:43:30 AM
Quote from: Barzalene on May 29, 2015, 11:42:51 AM
I never do. Oh what pretty eyes you have gets you an eye roll. Enjoy. On your way.
Does your character have pretty eyes?
They usually have eyes. Two is the average. Apparently the bar is set pretty low.
Then use your power that you have to make them realize you aren't just a set of pretty eyes...unless it doesn't really matter to you enough to do that...in which case...I don't even see why it's worth mentioning.
I've had people call my characters in game, "Pretty boy.", and things of that nature. Things obviously geared towards pointing out that they aren't a typical rough and gruff manly sort and this in some way degrades their value as a "real man". You know what I do? I kill them, or make them realize I can kill them. It stops pretty fast. That's Armageddon.
Quote from: Desertman on May 29, 2015, 11:48:04 AM
Quote from: Barzalene on May 29, 2015, 11:45:38 AM
Quote from: Desertman on May 29, 2015, 11:43:30 AM
Quote from: Barzalene on May 29, 2015, 11:42:51 AM
I never do. Oh what pretty eyes you have gets you an eye roll. Enjoy. On your way.
Does your character have pretty eyes?
They usually have eyes. Two is the average. Apparently the bar is set pretty low.
Then use your power that you have to make them realize you aren't just a set of pretty eyes...unless it doesn't really matter to you enough to do that...in which case...I don't even see why it's worth mentioning.
I've had people call my characters in game, "Pretty boy.", and things of that nature. Things obviously geared towards pointing out that they aren't a typical rough and gruff manly sort and this in some how degrades their value as a "real man". You know what I do? I kill them, or make them realize I can kill them. It stops pretty fast. That's Armageddon.
Why would you think I don't?
Quote from: Barzalene on May 29, 2015, 11:49:52 AM
Quote from: Desertman on May 29, 2015, 11:48:04 AM
Quote from: Barzalene on May 29, 2015, 11:45:38 AM
Quote from: Desertman on May 29, 2015, 11:43:30 AM
Quote from: Barzalene on May 29, 2015, 11:42:51 AM
I never do. Oh what pretty eyes you have gets you an eye roll. Enjoy. On your way.
Does your character have pretty eyes?
They usually have eyes. Two is the average. Apparently the bar is set pretty low.
Then use your power that you have to make them realize you aren't just a set of pretty eyes...unless it doesn't really matter to you enough to do that...in which case...I don't even see why it's worth mentioning.
I've had people call my characters in game, "Pretty boy.", and things of that nature. Things obviously geared towards pointing out that they aren't a typical rough and gruff manly sort and this in some how degrades their value as a "real man". You know what I do? I kill them, or make them realize I can kill them. It stops pretty fast. That's Armageddon.
Why would you think I don't?
Because you said you roll your eyes and send them on their way?
Its not a killing offense. It also doesn't get them closer to what they want.
Insincere manipulative compliments will put you at a disadvantage. But they dont move me to acts of violence. It seems an inappropriate response. Ergo, it never occurs to my characters. This doesn't make them weak. Just sane.
Quote from: Barzalene on May 29, 2015, 12:05:56 PM
Insincere manipulative compliments will put you at a disadvantage. But they dont move me to acts of violence. It seems an inappropriate response. Ergo, it never occurs to my characters. This doesn't make them weak. Just sane.
I'm fine with that. I'm just letting you know why I made the assumption I made since you asked....because apparently it's what you do, according to you.
Quote from: Desertman on May 29, 2015, 12:07:11 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on May 29, 2015, 12:05:56 PM
Insincere manipulative compliments will put you at a disadvantage. But they dont move me to acts of violence. It seems an inappropriate response. Ergo, it never occurs to my characters. This doesn't make them weak. Just sane.
I'm fine with that. I'm just letting you know why I made the assumption I made since you asked....because apparently it's what you do, according to you.
Having to kill people for minor offenses in order to look strong is exactly the lack of parity I was referring to. Its right up there with keleoid scarring to be seen as strong.
Let's get this thread back on topic, guys.
Quote from: Delirium on May 29, 2015, 12:14:48 PM
Let's get this thread back on topic, guys.
Is anyone else freaking out that there hasn't been an elf derail and we are on page ten?
Quote from: nauta on May 29, 2015, 12:16:07 PM
Quote from: Delirium on May 29, 2015, 12:14:48 PM
Let's get this thread back on topic, guys.
Is anyone else freaking out that there hasn't been an elf derail and we are on page ten?
People would have to play more pretty elves for it to be a valid derail.
Quote from: Delirium on May 29, 2015, 12:14:48 PM
Let's get this thread back on topic, guys.
Thought we were! :)
Is maybe a thread split required?
The OP has repeatedly gotten the answer of "don't feel guilty, play what you want."
Quote from: Barzalene on May 29, 2015, 12:11:42 PM
Quote from: Desertman on May 29, 2015, 12:07:11 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on May 29, 2015, 12:05:56 PM
Insincere manipulative compliments will put you at a disadvantage. But they dont move me to acts of violence. It seems an inappropriate response. Ergo, it never occurs to my characters. This doesn't make them weak. Just sane.
I'm fine with that. I'm just letting you know why I made the assumption I made since you asked....because apparently it's what you do, according to you.
Having to kill people for minor offenses in order to look strong is exactly the lack of parity I was referring to. Its right up there with keleoid scarring to be seen as strong.
Also fine with that. I'm just answering your question. You wanted to know what made me think that. What made me think it, is you said it. I'm not questioning your reason for saying it.
I'm not sure what the issue is.
Okay... I'm going to hint a little louder this time...
Stop trolling.
My philosophy is your mdesc should draw attention to what it is about your character that is not simply average. Then, just let people have their idiosyncratic opinions of what a TYPICAL ZALANTHAN must be, and let them project it onto your character.
To implement this, I usually deliberately avoid mentioning my character's teeth, complexion, skin quality, filthiness/sandiness/lack thereof, etc. Unless I'm playing a character that's supposed to be uglier than average. Thus, people who want to assume all typical Zalanthas have nasty teeth, horrible sun-marred complexions, etc, can go ahead. My mdesc doesn't say my character doesn't have those things. Those who usually assume all character attractive, sure, go ahead. It's not a big deal, either way.
The only time I would mention stuff that tends to be subjectively considered as markers of attractiveness/unattractiveness is if my character is definitely supposed to be atypically so.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on May 29, 2015, 01:03:18 PM
My philosophy is your mdesc should draw attention to what it is about your character that is not simply average. Then, just let people have their idiosyncratic opinions of what a TYPICAL ZALANTHAN must be, and let them project it onto your character.
To implement this, I usually deliberately avoid mentioning my character's teeth, complexion, skin quality, filthiness/sandiness/lack thereof, etc. Unless I'm playing a character that's supposed to be uglier than average. Thus, people who want to assume all typical Zalanthas have nasty teeth, horrible sun-marred complexions, etc, can go ahead. My mdesc doesn't say my character doesn't have those things. Those who usually assume all character attractive, sure, go ahead. It's not a big deal, either way.
The only time I would mention stuff that tends to be subjectively considered as markers of attractiveness/unattractiveness is if my character is definitely supposed to be atypically so.
That's a good idea. It lets you play a character that you conceptualize as pretty, but doesn't terribly impose on people's view of the gameworld. I mean how often is the exact color shade and number of your teeth going to need to come up in rp?
Quote from: hyzhenhok on May 29, 2015, 01:03:18 PM
My philosophy is your mdesc should draw attention to what it is about your character that is not simply average. Then, just let people have their idiosyncratic opinions of what a TYPICAL ZALANTHAN must be, and let them project it onto your character.
To implement this, I usually deliberately avoid mentioning my character's teeth, complexion, skin quality, filthiness/sandiness/lack thereof, etc. Unless I'm playing a character that's supposed to be uglier than average. Thus, people who want to assume all typical Zalanthas have nasty teeth, horrible sun-marred complexions, etc, can go ahead. My mdesc doesn't say my character doesn't have those things. Those who usually assume all character attractive, sure, go ahead. It's not a big deal, either way.
The only time I would mention stuff that tends to be subjectively considered as markers of attractiveness/unattractiveness is if my character is definitely supposed to be atypically so.
I do this as well. I also try to leave anything variable (such as hairstyle, cleanliness, etc) to the tdesc, so that I can adjust their description over time. Especially handy for male characters and their beards.
I avoid including anything about variable cleanliness unless it's a PC that is likely never going to be cleaned, like a dedicated alley rat.
I don't generally set out to make an ugly PC or a pretty PC. I tend to write my descriptions to convey the feel/vibe of a character as best I can without imposing anything subjective.
Quote from: HavokBlue on May 29, 2015, 01:22:03 PM
I
I don't generally set out to make an ugly PC or a pretty PC. I tend to write my descriptions to convey the feel/vibe of a character as best I can without imposing anything subjective.
This makes sense to MW.
I always wondered if it was natural for some of my characters to be naturally frightened and not trusting of "attractive characters" .
I tend to play low life/gutter trash/desert rats type characters and tend to associate attractiveness with nobility and as well as social ruthlessness.
MY logic being, if they're obviously unmarred by the life of the lower class, they must either be A.) an aide, so thus dangerous B.) Really good at manipulation back stabbing so thus dangerous. C.) A witch and thus dangerous.
I run... as fast as I can from pretty people.
Is this also meta gaming?
Sounds reasonable to me. Distrusting the unusual is a natural response.
Quote from: hopeandsorrow on May 29, 2015, 02:12:26 PM
I always wondered if it was natural for some of my characters to be naturally frightened and not trusting of "attractive characters" .
I tend to play low life/gutter trash/desert rats type characters and tend to associate attractiveness with nobility and as well as social ruthlessness.
MY logic being, if they're obviously unmarred by the life of the lower class, they must either be A.) an aide, so thus dangerous B.) Really good at manipulation back stabbing so thus dangerous. C.) A witch and thus dangerous.
I run... as fast as I can from pretty people.
Is this also meta gaming?
Not really.
Life is hard. Hardship shows. Why does that person not show hardships? Life must be too easy for them. Must be a gicker. Or have money. Fuck that person. (Not literally, or if you want to I guess)
See now... to date I have played more female warriors than other classes, and if I sometimes use pretty words in my mdesc as a connotation, it's because the word fits. But I give them flaws, and they aren't perfect. This one has no curves at all, and a very strong jaw. This one is very typically pretty, but she's got mental issues. Wild hair, broad shoulders, crooked, broken nose, big nose, etc. No guilt there.
I stored a long-lived female warrior PC of mine when I realized realistically, I needed to start obliterating her appearance with disfiguring scars.
(Mostly kidding.)
I thought this was relevant.
(http://41.media.tumblr.com/b7b1eb1e083251554da669058b388129/tumblr_np478tMxPN1uw1s6ho1_1280.jpg)
Wow! My little thread grew up and got big and it's 11 pages old already!
They grow up so fast. :'(
Anyway, I saw a few things suggesting females be warriors, or more masculine or mean. Problems!
1 - Warriors seem really super boring to me. So do merchants. To me it's like... hey, let's play chess and ONLY USE THE PAWNS! There's a whole board and lots of pieces to play with! I want to use them all. I wish we weren't locked into guild limitations.
2 - It's possible to be in masculine professions and still be girly, or be an aide and be masculine! You don't have to be Sissy McSmoothface and you don't have to be Hulkia von Muscleneck either. Like the answer to #1, I find it most interesting to be something inbetween, or even kind of both. Making a complete, multifaceted person is far more interesting than trying to live up to stereotypes or anti-stereotypes.
Quote from: In Dreams on May 30, 2015, 04:07:34 AM
Wow! My little thread grew up and got big and it's 11 pages old already!
They grow up so fast. :'(
Anyway, I saw a few things suggesting females be warriors, or more masculine or mean. Problems!
1 - Warriors seem really super boring to me. So do merchants. To me it's like... hey, let's play chess and ONLY USE THE PAWNS! There's a whole board and lots of pieces to play with! I want to use them all. I wish we weren't locked into guild limitations.
2 - It's possible to be in masculine professions and still be girly, or be an aide and be masculine! You don't have to be Sissy McSmoothface and you don't have to be Hulkia von Muscleneck either. Like the answer to #1, I find it most interesting to be something inbetween, or even kind of both. Making a complete, multifaceted person is far more interesting than trying to live up to stereotypes or anti-stereotypes.
Just want to ask you to try playing a male, masculine, gruff aide. You get thrown on your ass and told you can't join the fru fru club so fast by your peers.
Hell, for that matter, try playing a traditionally feminine male anything. I believe I made a rage comic about this sometime.
Edit: Yup. (http://imgur.com/y2gffl0)
Quote from: In Dreams on May 30, 2015, 04:07:34 AM
Wow! My little thread grew up and got big and it's 11 pages old already!
They grow up so fast. :'(
Anyway, I saw a few things suggesting females be warriors, or more masculine or mean. Problems!
1 - Warriors seem really super boring to me. So do merchants. To me it's like... hey, let's play chess and ONLY USE THE PAWNS! There's a whole board and lots of pieces to play with! I want to use them all. I wish we weren't locked into guild limitations.
2 - It's possible to be in masculine professions and still be girly, or be an aide and be masculine! You don't have to be Sissy McSmoothface and you don't have to be Hulkia von Muscleneck either. Like the answer to #1, I find it most interesting to be something inbetween, or even kind of both. Making a complete, multifaceted person is far more interesting than trying to live up to stereotypes or anti-stereotypes.
You don't need advice. You're doing it right.
Sometimes, I intentionally make ugly, disfigured, or otherwise physically displeasing characters.
And yet they still get hit on. ???
Quote from: Rhyden on May 30, 2015, 12:11:40 PM
Sometimes, I intentionally make ugly, disfigured, or otherwise physically displeasing characters.
And yet they still get hit on. ???
Personality goes a long way in a text game
Quote from: Rhyden on May 30, 2015, 12:11:40 PM
Sometimes, I intentionally make ugly, disfigured, or otherwise physically displeasing characters.
And yet they still get hit on. ???
Kind of gives you hope, no? A world where someone's worth as a partner isn't just based on physical appearance?
It's all those pretty, flowery emotes. So misleading.
Quote from: valeria on May 30, 2015, 03:25:52 PM
It's all those pretty, flowery emotes. So misleading.
There's more truth to this than you might have intended. Mdescs are just part of the story with portraying an ugly person - pulling off ugly emotes is an art form.
Quote from: nauta on May 30, 2015, 03:43:57 PM
Quote from: valeria on May 30, 2015, 03:25:52 PM
It's all those pretty, flowery emotes. So misleading.
There's more truth to this than you might have intended. Mdescs are just part of the story with portraying an ugly person - pulling off ugly emotes is an art form.
Nope, it was totally intended ;)
Quote from: In Dreams on May 30, 2015, 04:07:34 AM
Wow! My little thread grew up and got big and it's 11 pages old already!
They grow up so fast. :'(
Anyway, I saw a few things suggesting females be warriors, or more masculine or mean. Problems!
1 - Warriors seem really super boring to me. So do merchants. To me it's like... hey, let's play chess and ONLY USE THE PAWNS! There's a whole board and lots of pieces to play with! I want to use them all. I wish we weren't locked into guild limitations.
2 - It's possible to be in masculine professions and still be girly, or be an aide and be masculine! You don't have to be Sissy McSmoothface and you don't have to be Hulkia von Muscleneck either. Like the answer to #1, I find it most interesting to be something inbetween, or even kind of both. Making a complete, multifaceted person is far more interesting than trying to live up to stereotypes or anti-stereotypes.
I dunno. Warriors is more like playing with all rooks.
I love to see ugly characters. I want to feel like your face is harassing me.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 28, 2015, 06:25:03 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on May 28, 2015, 05:23:45 PM
There are two sides to this coin. I've seen female leaders consistently treat male subordinates with more disrespect than their female subordinates.
How did your Sergeant deal with male characters who were actually able to kick her ass? There must have been one or two.
I'm not really sure what I'm being accused of here
I'm confused as to why the topic turned to the coded kicking of ass when what we are talking about is IC authority.
Because it sounds like your Sergeant exerted her authority in the most primitive way, namely threatening (or enacting) punishment for anything she didn't like based on her dominance in the ring. So how did she handle characters she couldn't use that on?
If I were a leader and I was dealing with a guy who seemed insubordinate and could codedly take me 1-on-1, I'd just run a mini-RPT to have the whole clan stomp him to death.
Quote from: Eyeball on May 31, 2015, 11:15:50 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 28, 2015, 06:25:03 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on May 28, 2015, 05:23:45 PM
There are two sides to this coin. I've seen female leaders consistently treat male subordinates with more disrespect than their female subordinates.
How did your Sergeant deal with male characters who were actually able to kick her ass? There must have been one or two.
I'm not really sure what I'm being accused of here
I'm confused as to why the topic turned to the coded kicking of ass when what we are talking about is IC authority.
Because it sounds like your Sergeant exerted her authority in the most primitive way, namely threatening (or enacting) punishment for anything she didn't like based on her dominance in the ring. So how did she handle characters she couldn't use that on?
Are you under the impression that military leaders shouldn't be authoritative and/or physical with their subordinates if something is awry?
Should illiterate professional soldiers reason with junior soldiers or give them a "I'm really disappointed" speech all the time?
Quote from: Is Friday on May 31, 2015, 11:37:36 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on May 31, 2015, 11:15:50 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on May 28, 2015, 06:25:03 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on May 28, 2015, 05:23:45 PM
There are two sides to this coin. I've seen female leaders consistently treat male subordinates with more disrespect than their female subordinates.
How did your Sergeant deal with male characters who were actually able to kick her ass? There must have been one or two.
I'm not really sure what I'm being accused of here
I'm confused as to why the topic turned to the coded kicking of ass when what we are talking about is IC authority.
Because it sounds like your Sergeant exerted her authority in the most primitive way, namely threatening (or enacting) punishment for anything she didn't like based on her dominance in the ring. So how did she handle characters she couldn't use that on?
Are you under the impression that military leaders shouldn't be authoritative and/or physical with their subordinates if something is awry?
Ideally, they lead by earning respect rather than by imposing fear. Those who impose fear or humiliate their subordinates shouldn't be surprised to find themselves resented or even rebelled against, is all.
Whose ideal is that, precisely?
As a leader of men who has educated, literate modern Americans I can tell you that some people just don't listen to reason. I've had to do some things, let's say.
edit because you editted:
Okay. Leaders don't have to be good leaders to be good characters. Leaders don't have to be well liked to be respected or effective, either. And I'm fairly sure the humiliation/degradation level for many Zalanthans will have a much higher threshold than a modern community who dislikes being frowned at.
Gimf's Sergeant was a great character.
IF's recent Sergeant was a great character, they were very similar in my opinion, but I didn't get the insider trading angle on one of them that I did for the other.
I remember that long lived Gimfy Sergeant being very loyal and very no-nonsense..
A well realized example of a militaristic character that people have aped or taken parts from since.
If people are imitating your role years after your role ended, that's a good sign of a good character.
ON TOPIC:
I like to get a rough idea of what a role looks like and what they should look like and then go for that. Although I didn't always do that and I have had had some woefully lore-breaking descriptions, at least in my opinion. If I'm playing Private Boots of the Winrothol Cavaliers, I'm usually gonna be some bandy legged dude with branch scars on his face.. or whatever.
Quote from: Tuannon on June 01, 2015, 12:08:35 AM
Gimf's Sergeant was a great character.
IF's recent Sergeant Agent was a great character, they were very similar in my opinion, but I didn't get the insider trading angle on one of them that I did for the other.
I remember that long lived Gimfy Sergeant being very loyal and very no-nonsense..
A well realized example of a militaristic character that people have aped or taken parts from since.
If people are imitating your role years after your role ended, that's a good sign of a good character.
ON TOPIC:
I like to get a rough idea of what a role looks like and what they should look like and then go for that. Although I didn't always do that and I have had had some woefully lore-breaking descriptions, at least in my opinion. If I'm playing Private Boots of the Winrothol Cavaliers, I'm usually gonna be some bandy legged dude with branch scars on his face.. or whatever.
She was promoted, never forget.
I don't mean to detract from a good character, but I'm pretty sure those characteristics are generally sought in -all- sergeants. I mean, I'm pretty sure there have always been loyal, no-nonsense leaders. It's a good way to get promoted.
I put my thoughts a bit in IFs leadership thread to save messing up this one.
Quote from: Eyeball on May 31, 2015, 11:15:50 PM
Because it sounds like your Sergeant exerted her authority in the most primitive way, namely threatening (or enacting) punishment for anything she didn't like based on her dominance in the ring. So how did she handle characters she couldn't use that on?
You seem to be projecting something. This idea that my character had to threaten or punish for "anything she didn't like based on her dominance in the ring"? Why would you think that was the sum total of the way my character operated? Do you want data? You do, right?
Point 1: My recruit retention rate was in the range of 40% over the time that I played this character. Meaning, 40% of the recruits that I brought into the clan ultimately made it to full soldier. Anyone who has ever played a military leader in Armageddon knows that is a superlative number. (Typical is more like 15 to 25%.) It was this high because I am great at recruiting the right people, making a clan fun (on a daily basis via normal interaction, running RPTs, and in starting plots and projects), training and shaping minions, helping to develop other people's characters, and because I play great characters. Some of those who I recruited were with me for many IC years.
Point 2: Under my leadership, the AoD grew so big that we eventually split into two full units, each having their own Sergeant, the other Sergeant being someone I had brought in as a recruit and trained up. Yes, we had 2 Sergeants, 4 Corporals, and in the range of 10 full soldiers. Plus recruits.
Point 3: Other players (both minions and enemies) sent me a bunch of kudos for my roleplay with them, often referring to my leadership or hardass-ness or mastery of the art of the insult or evilness, but just as frequently talking about depth of character and fun and taking care of clannies and OOC helpfulness on the clan forums. Once in a later leadership role (Allanaki noble), I had to PK a minion, and the dude sent me kudos for it.
Playing a military leader in Armageddon also requires occasionally beating up minions (codedly and/or RPed), and sometimes killing them. Because Armageddon. But the assumption that because I mentioned once PKing a minion who was sexually harassing my character, I must have been continually being so harsh that my minions "rebelled" (lol)...nope.
gimf data slam
Quote from: Gimfalisette on June 01, 2015, 01:10:45 AM
You seem to be projecting something. This idea that my character had to threaten or punish for "anything she didn't like based on her dominance in the ring"? Why would you think that was the sum total of the way my character operated? Do you want data? You do, right?
EDIT: I wrote a reply to this, but decided to delete the content. You're proud of Sergeant Layla and there's no doubt it was an active and interesting time in the game, so I'll leave it at that.
Quote from: Is Friday on May 31, 2015, 11:40:50 PM
Okay. Leaders don't have to be good leaders to be good characters. Leaders don't have to be well liked to be respected or effective, either. And I'm fairly sure the humiliation/degradation level for many Zalanthans will have a much higher threshold than a modern community who dislikes being frowned at.
Agreed. My favorite leader PC to play was absolutely horrible at his job.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on June 01, 2015, 01:10:45 AM
Quote from: Eyeball on May 31, 2015, 11:15:50 PM
Because it sounds like your Sergeant exerted her authority in the most primitive way, namely threatening (or enacting) punishment for anything she didn't like based on her dominance in the ring. So how did she handle characters she couldn't use that on?
You seem to be projecting something. This idea that my character had to threaten or punish for "anything she didn't like based on her dominance in the ring"? Why would you think that was the sum total of the way my character operated? Do you want data? You do, right?
Point 1: My recruit retention rate was in the range of 40% over the time that I played this character. Meaning, 40% of the recruits that I brought into the clan ultimately made it to full soldier. Anyone who has ever played a military leader in Armageddon knows that is a superlative number. (Typical is more like 15 to 25%.) It was this high because I am great at recruiting the right people, making a clan fun (on a daily basis via normal interaction, running RPTs, and in starting plots and projects), training and shaping minions, helping to develop other people's characters, and because I play great characters. Some of those who I recruited were with me for many IC years.
Point 2: Under my leadership, the AoD grew so big that we eventually split into two full units, each having their own Sergeant, the other Sergeant being someone I had brought in as a recruit and trained up. Yes, we had 2 Sergeants, 4 Corporals, and in the range of 10 full soldiers. Plus recruits.
Point 3: Other players (both minions and enemies) sent me a bunch of kudos for my roleplay with them, often referring to my leadership or hardass-ness or mastery of the art of the insult or evilness, but just as frequently talking about depth of character and fun and taking care of clannies and OOC helpfulness on the clan forums. Once in a later leadership role (Allanaki noble), I had to PK a minion, and the dude sent me kudos for it.
Playing a military leader in Armageddon also requires occasionally beating up minions (codedly and/or RPed), and sometimes killing them. Because Armageddon. But the assumption that because I mentioned once PKing a minion who was sexually harassing my character, I must have been continually being so harsh that my minions "rebelled" (lol)...nope.
The great weakness of Armageddon, is that there is not enough of Gimf-caliber military leaders to go around. And I'm sure Gimf can also assert that it was an exhausting role. Honestly, the middle management of Armageddon society, as in real life (Hello Feds/US Army), is where the biggest impact is made by individuals, and where there's the biggest talent shortage.
Those that are great middle managers tend to either get promoted to upper management quickly, or get out.
It's also very sad to spend like 15 RL days PLAYTIME training someone up, mentoring and teaching them, and making them into a badass, then watching them get bored one night when you're not around, and die to something stupid. Which is another reason people eventually get burned out, and their retention rates start dropping from 40% to 25 or even 20%.
It takes something like 300% more effort, to raise your success rate from 25% to 40%. And many people just can't keep that up indefinitely.
Leading 30+ PC RPTs as my female military leader was some of the most fun I had :)
You do have to invest a lot of time though.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 01, 2015, 06:41:30 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on May 31, 2015, 11:40:50 PM
Okay. Leaders don't have to be good leaders to be good characters. Leaders don't have to be well liked to be respected or effective, either. And I'm fairly sure the humiliation/degradation level for many Zalanthans will have a much higher threshold than a modern community who dislikes being frowned at.
Agreed. My favorite leader PC to play was absolutely horrible at his job.
So horrible, that people still loved him!
I have so much to say on this thread, I don't even know where to start.
Gotta put order in my brain first, because it needs to be coherent.
(Obligatory fuck given here, so you all know it is actually me, and not an imposter.)
Quote from: WarriorPoet on May 31, 2015, 10:58:07 AM
I love to see ugly characters. I want to feel like your face is harassing me.
I feel accomplished when people see my ugly char in game and cringe visibly/look away quickly/throw up on the nearest breed.
I do it for you, WP.
Wait, I thought this was about Prettiness guilt? Anyhow. I think you gotta play for you at the end of the day. You can make your character attractive. Give them flaws though, within reason for whatever background you've written up. Don't have your super petite person with a background of boulder hauling, for example. If your character has any serious curvature, I might suggest a background where food or water wasn't a major concern. Characters with lean/sleek/toned/muscular/etc are going to be the average for the most part in my mind. Fat would be pretty attractive for most people. So you're not special for looking like a twig. You're special for looking like...a bit more curvy Monroe.
Remember kids, people in Zalanthas are stronk and made for this shit.
Everyone better have six packs.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 01, 2015, 06:41:30 PM
Quote from: Is Friday on May 31, 2015, 11:40:50 PM
Okay. Leaders don't have to be good leaders to be good characters. Leaders don't have to be well liked to be respected or effective, either. And I'm fairly sure the humiliation/degradation level for many Zalanthans will have a much higher threshold than a modern community who dislikes being frowned at.
Agreed. My favorite leader PC to play was absolutely horrible at his job.
I make a person and go from there. Obviously that person has to fit their job but no one is perfect they need to stumble sometimes.
Quote from: Bast on June 14, 2015, 11:25:56 AM
I make a person and go from there. Obviously that person has to fit their job but no one is perfect they need to stumble sometimes.
Spoken like a boss.
I had some misgivings about my last post on this topic, because there was something important that I wanted to say but had forgotten to, so I'm glad that someone revived this topic.
The thing about Armageddon is that at this point in the game's lifecycle, having more of pretty much any type of player is a boon for the game. Different people play for different reasons and the GDB kids who like to represent their preferred playing style as the only correct style are something of a pill. Diversity contributes as a (game) recruitment incentive because the truth is that any of us who feel that we're good at the game should be able to play a variety of roles.
Attempts by people to pick on the Fuck-Me women (or fuck-me boys or fuck-me trannys) is partially an extension of slut shaming. I think that slut shaming is at times appropriate, but certainly not in a fantasy role-playing environment designed for adults where we should all feel free to let our hair down anyway.
Pretty characters absolutely contribute to the game, and I say that as someone who has pretty much only played ugly characters for the last decade.
Moderated a post. Please keep your discussion civil.
Why would I escape to a fantasy world to sink uncounted hours into pretending to be an ugly chick?
Isn't the premise and general storyline of Zalanthas depressing enough?
Fine. I'll struggle toward unattainable goals while watching all my friends and lovers eventually perish or simply disappear, but must I ALSO simultaneously pretend to be ugly?
No. I have rules in this house.
Having played with Path I can confirm she is always pretty but she balances it out with playing excellent breeds... I think they were breeds... Crazy people?
The only PC I was ashamed of prettiness wise was a Borsail sex slave that wasn't only pretty but gag-me-with-a-silver-spoon erotic too. I threw up a little in my mouth every time I read that desc.
if being pretty is a crime, you're guilty
STOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM! YOU'VE STOLEN MY HEART!
there's my suave aod sarge app, cavat. get back to me soon.
Can confirm: Ugly chicks get hit on just as much.
Quote from: Jingo on July 03, 2015, 09:22:40 AM
Can confirm: Ugly chicks get hit on just as much.
Who can tell, when she never takes her helmet off?
*rimshot* (http://instantrimshot.com/)
Also keep in mind that while there are traits which are universally considered attractive(such as symmetry and healthy-looking features like hair/teeth), beauty can and has always been a largely subjective thing.
I have had more than one ugly-pretty character; it's up to the observer to decide which end of the spectrum my PC leans towards, based on what their character finds attractive.
Who cares? I flip flop some pcs look prettier by my standards than others..and I roll d4 for my bust size....I think its just a sexist when players say your being a fme for having a pc with boobs and hips. Possibly because I'm busted Irl and makes want to kick them in the teeth.
It's probably because most PCs that are written to accentuate tits and ass and god look at those cuuuuurves omg aayyy u wanna visit poundtown bb bring basically nothing to the game other than mind-numbingly dull pre-mudsex tavern chatter or gigglefit cuddlepuddle roleplay, which is the opposite of how things should be done in this game.
But hey, that's just my opinion. If you wanna roll up a supermodel in a harsh desert environment, you go right on ahead.
Quote from: manonfire on July 07, 2015, 08:15:45 AM
It's probably because most PCs that are written to accentuate tits and ass and god look at those cuuuuurves omg aayyy u wanna visit poundtown bb bring basically nothing to the game other than mind-numbingly dull pre-mudsex tavern chatter or gigglefit cuddlepuddle roleplay, which is the opposite of how things should be done in this game.
But hey, that's just my opinion. If you wanna roll up a supermodel in a harsh desert environment, you go right on ahead.
^ And then the sexy human supermodels go around hugging elves, because why not?
I wish I was joking. Stop that you crazy people. Or at least hide your shame behind closed doors and don't act surprised at the ridicule.
Quote from: Delirium on July 07, 2015, 09:27:39 AM
^ And then the sexy human supermodels go around hugging elves, because why not?
I wish I was joking. Stop that you crazy people. Or at least hide your shame behind closed doors and don't act surprised at the ridicule.
Yep. I think the ridicule and ostracizing is more lacking then the PK'ing. But it could be worse, there have been some pretty impressive looking mutants lately they could be cuddling up against.
I'd rather be known as a mutant fucker then an elf fucker. At least a mutant has a chance of having three boobs or something.
Quote from: whitt on July 07, 2015, 10:50:49 AM
Quote from: Delirium on July 07, 2015, 09:27:39 AM
^ And then the sexy human supermodels go around hugging elves, because why not?
I wish I was joking. Stop that you crazy people. Or at least hide your shame behind closed doors and don't act surprised at the ridicule.
Yep. I think the ridicule and ostracizing is more lacking then the PK'ing. But it could be worse, there have been some pretty impressive looking mutants lately they could be cuddling up against.
The worst is when you get white-knighted or social backlash for speaking out AGAINST the elf-huggers, the Total Drama cuddlepuddles, or the blatant chauvinism... I've been on the verge of player complaints so many times. On the one hand, I don't want to be a whiny tattletale, but on the other hand, they're not going to be taught better if they keep getting away with it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JjVPiDLdH4
Quote from: Delirium on July 07, 2015, 01:26:27 PM
The worst is when you get white-knighted or social backlash for speaking out AGAINST the elf-huggers, the Total Drama cuddlepuddles, or the blatant chauvinism... I've been on the verge of player complaints so many times. On the one hand, I don't want to be a whiny tattletale, but on the other hand, they're not going to be taught better if they keep getting away with it.
I recognize this feeling, but I don't know if it is quite as bad as you make it out to be. What consoles me is:
a) that the IG powers that be -do- represent the docs and -won't- hire these sorts of people, so at worst the miscreants are stuck at the Gaj, Gajjing it up with the Gajians, Gaj-style - their capacity to do anything about it is is quite limited, and it can all be written off as the depravity of Gaj life.
b) that eventually people just catch on - I mean who hasn't been OOC'd by that giant with the polite message that their penis is actually way too large for what you plan on doing with it? It might take a while, but it's part of the newbie experience to come to think "Eww elf."
That's what I keep trying to tell myself. Still, the more egregious stuff is hard to ignore.
One thing that bugs me is that the Gaj is supposed to be the "commoner's commoner" bar. A real-world equivalent is a republican sports bar.
It's the Gladiator and Gaj - full of T'zai Byn and commoners, I'm not sure when the shift happened but it seems like the playerbase has turned it into "the place where the undesirables hang out". Rather than "the place where the everyday common man goes to get the news and drink some swill." Elves and gemmed and mutants might show up, sure, but it shouldn't be the expectation or the norm that all sorts of undesirable depravity and cuddling happens and is simply glossed over or excused... it's still a 'Nakki commoner bar.
I think the reason you see undesirables in the Gaj, Delirium, is that the Gaj is the bottom of the barrel for the city at large. Mutants, Gemmed, and (non-rinthi) Elves don't want to go to the really seedy taverns in the Rinth because the rinth's dangerous.
That doesn't mean they aren't supposed to be in the Gaj. The room echos describe Gemmed, breeds, elfs and criminals being there, doing their thing. Undesirables have a place in the Gaj. I just wish there was a code for them to get randomly kicked into unconsciousness by suddenly-animated crowds of shitcloaks.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on July 07, 2015, 03:10:52 PM
I think the reason you see undesirables in the Gaj, Delirium, is that the Gaj is the bottom of the barrel for the city at large. Mutants, Gemmed, and (non-rinthi) Elves don't want to go to the really seedy taverns in the Rinth because the rinth's dangerous.
That doesn't mean they aren't supposed to be in the Gaj. The room echos describe Gemmed, breeds, elfs and criminals being there, doing their thing. Undesirables have a place in the Gaj. I just wish there was a code for them to get randomly kicked into unconsciousness by suddenly-animated crowds of shitcloaks.
In the last few years it's turned into that, yeah.
I get it, kind of. I'm not saying they shouldn't be there. Elves aren't an issue, generally, except if they're being snuggled by supermodels.
I'm saying there shouldn't be universal acceptance of cozy nonsense going on.
I'm saying that the outcasts of society should feel only marginally comfortable going to even a shithole like the Gaj, and that there is a difference between representing the degenerate nature of society's dregs versus acting like it's cuddlepuddle land where all the losers get along like a made-for-tv movie.
I'm saying that being a gemmed and showing up in the Gaj should be like showing up at a confederate bar as a black person in the 1960s.
I recognize that part of the problem is related to that other thread about antagonism; people don't seem to get how to play it interestingly and without escalating it to ridiculous proportions. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. It
is hard to be the one who starts it when people white-knight all over you.
Quote from: Delirium on July 07, 2015, 04:36:48 PM
I'm saying that being a gemmed and showing up in the Gaj should be like showing up at a confederate bar as a black person in the 1960s.
I recognize that part of the problem is related to that other thread about antagonism; people don't seem to get how to play it interestingly and without escalating it to ridiculous proportions. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. It is hard to be the one who starts it when people white-knight all over you.
Unfortunately that model's not really supported by the room echoes or common sense. There's an echo of a Gemmed sitting the bar, which causes everyone else at the bar to relocate to a table. Gemmed are avoided, not antagonized. People aren't going to take a swing at a Gemmed because A) magick can destroy you and B) damaging one of the Templarate's most powerful tools is probably not going to go over well with any Templar who comes to investigate. Gemmed are inherently valuable. Commoners are not.
What we can do is follow the lead of the game world and disassociate our commoner PCs from Gemmed PCs. Take the lead in reminding the playerbase that Gemmed are supposed to be trusted and despised. Hopefully more PCs will be reminded and help reinforce the docs. Especially powerful PCs.
I feel like my entire existence as a payer is to enforce these sort of racism and hate docs, because nobody else ever does. I never get to be an exception because I have to make up for so many other people doing it.
I see more people on the GDB shitting on the undesirable than I ever see in game. The problem is partly because the undesirables aren't really doing anything to make themselves a target. So I guess people feel like it's okay to be all "Yeah, elves suck but Sleeky isn't like most of them, he's funny and I'll be careful he don't steal from me, but I'm still going to treat him like a casual friend because hes useful."
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on July 07, 2015, 05:02:10 PM
I feel like my entire existence as a payer is to enforce these sort of racism and hate docs, because nobody else ever does. I never get to be an exception because I have to make up for so many other people doing it.
I see more people on the GDB shitting on the undesirable than I ever see in game. The problem is partly because the undesirables aren't really doing anything to make themselves a target. So I guess people feel like it's okay to be all "Yeah, elves suck but Sleeky isn't like most of them, he's funny and I'll be careful he don't steal from me, but I'm still going to treat him like a casual friend because hes useful."
Good you're here to pick up our slack :)
I wasn't suggesting that you start brawling with Gemmed. Antagonism doesn't have to equal fist-fights. I would like to see the gemmed off in their own little corner interacting with each other instead of - you know what I'm reminded why I shoulda just stopped posting on the GDB nevermind.
Just nevermind. I'm going to turn into a broken record and start beating my head on the wall again.
Yeah, I don't really know what you want either. We can't kick the Gemmed out to some other bar - there isn't one. The only thing commoner PCs can do is shun and avoid them.
If you want something more, app a Templar and reinforce some social mores I guess.
Upon careful review of the Karma help file (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Karma), i think it's worth pointing out that well played racism and magicker hate can get you karma.
Just sayin'. :D
I'm frustrated because you keep picking bits of my posts to nitpick and/or make assumptions which either miss or ignore the overall point.
I never suggested we kick them out, I suggested that they should feel less comfortable than they often appear. This has been an ongoing trend for the last few years, save for an exception in which there was a movement by some gemmed a couple years ago to sit only at the tables, not the bar.
Sometimes it's worse, sometimes it's better, and I think we can always use a reminder that it's possible to discriminate without
a) completely ignoring them OOCly
b) starting a fight (physical or verbal)
c) some other type of overtly hostile escalated interaction
Emote that you're ignoring or moving away from them. Hemote or emote your lip twitching in disgust. Whisper disparaging things to your buddy. Refuse to do business with them if they're flagrantly breaking social mores. Gossip about their poor judgement to all of your friends.
I'm just pushing back against this whole phase of "gee, if I get along with people, that's better for my character" that many players go through. You really have to lead by example, and I guess it gets frustrating sometimes that leading by example occasionally brings about unrealistic consequences (when set against the backdrop of the documentation and the virtual world, not against the prevalent behavior of the playerbase).
Ah, I see. Yeah, I don't mean ignore them OOCly. No point in hating something if you don't let them know you hate them.
But, as you know, there's unfortunately no real downside to being friendly with the Gemmed or other undesirables. Especially the kinds with useful skills. That's where negative reinforcement is needed: to remind the playerbase of the docs.
Now, those supermodels you were complaining about?
Quote^ And then the sexy human supermodels go around hugging elves, because why not?
If someone was to subdue them into an alley and slit some noses and force a description change... Yeah, that might get the message across: "Don't kank elves." Intimidate the too-friendlies and you'll intimidate the undesirables, they knowing that they can be next. The real challenge will be trying to weather the storm of white-knighting that blows back from that sort of thing. That's why I like Templars and Nobles to enforce these sort of docs from the top down. They're powerful enough to bring the true grit and harshness of Zalanthas without overly exposing themselves.
Some of the horses being rode on my little thread here got awfully elevated!
On this board I often feel like certain people on those high horses just "see and judge" without really understanding what something like racism actually is, what it means, how it affects people, or most importantly, how it's most often carried out.
Generally it's not going to be obvious and overt if the subjects of the bigotry are wildly dangerous social outcasts.
Personally, I find the "cuddling with elves" problem to be much less irritating than the "perfect 10" problem. I always try to give my characters flaws, serious, damning flaws, both physical and mental, but people always see beyond that. My characters don't need to be "pretty", it's their insides that are the real draw. It was a relief when the Atrium re-opened, as it siphoned most of the perfect, pretty people off into plotlines where their perfect prettiness belongs, well, mostly, and gave the rest of us some breathing room.
Yes, the Gaj is a bar for undesirables, as Badskillz said, there's even room echos to reinforce what kind of crowd is there, for a while, these were missing, I think it was detrimental to player perspective when the pissing breed went missing, but staff fixed that. Even then, there's still a push by the "pretty" crowd to make the Gaj something it isn't, whatever, I don't enjoy that kind of RP, I can find another location while someone else figures out why it's a good idea to stab these people mercilessly. They could go to Red's or whatever, but it's so much easier to throw your weight around with undesirables that I guess they spend their time in the Gaj ignoring that they likely stepped in breed poo on their way in. It'll fix itself, given time, I keep telling myself.
Or maybe their players just want some social interaction and they saw Reds was empty.
if someone is doing something inappropriate in the Gaj, it helps to have someone with power to back you up when you disagree with it.
If you're just another commoner, even if your hated enemy is a gemmed or a mutant, if you have NO FRIENDS and no status, then you're really not much better than them.
What matters in Allanak is clout, influence, connections. Your physical appearance will help you (or not) to get that; but that's what actually counts.
No newbie fresh out of creation has any actual power over other PCs, but some are better equipped to gain that social power than others. Conversely, if your goal is gain social clout/influence in the underbelly of Nak, and you're a mutant or an elf, you should have some luck making real friends in the rinth or perhaps in other places. But not everybody should be powerful and influential in the Gaj.
I don't care if you're a newbie or a 100-day old character, vocalizing your disgust at freaks being freaky should not get you ostracized.
Can you do anything but bitch? Maybe not. But if the rest of the virtual tavern crowd was being animated I'm sure they'd agree.
I feel like there's a disconnect between what people understand of the actual, living breathing (virtual) gameworld and their own microcosm of PC culture, where the world is and feels a lot smaller because there's only 100+ people instead of 10,000+ people. I don't care how well-connected your gemmed is, if the vNPC population was being represented properly you still wouldn't want to be holding hands with your lover at the bar - not just for your own sake, but for fear of reprisals against your mate. When I played a gemmed I felt like the population was a lot more circumspect about mingling with the playerbase. We socialized (usually at a table, rarely at the bar) but we sure as hell didn't try to shove our freaky ways in their faces.
If everyone who should be at Reds was at Reds they could socialize with each other.
If it were up to me, and its not, I'd take the plaza outside Reds, put in more benches, a statue, a clue of flowers cactus. An outdoor space seems like a more organic place for interclass interaction.
But we'd need to mind the weather.
Quote from: Delirium on July 15, 2015, 10:08:27 AM
I don't care if you're a newbie or a 100-day old character, vocalizing your disgust at freaks being freaky should not get you ostracized.
Can you do anything but bitch? Maybe not. But if the rest of the virtual tavern crowd was being animated I'm sure they'd agree.
I feel like there's a disconnect between what people understand of the actual, living breathing (virtual) gameworld and their own microcosm of PC culture, where the world is and feels a lot smaller because there's only 100+ people instead of 10,000+ people. I don't care how well-connected your gemmed is, if the vNPC population was being represented properly you still wouldn't want to be holding hands with your lover at the bar - not just for your own sake, but for fear of reprisals against your mate. When I played a gemmed I felt like the population was a lot more circumspect about mingling with the playerbase. We socialized (usually at a table, rarely at the bar) but we sure as hell didn't try to shove our freaky ways in their faces.
I agree with this. I hope you're not taking my post to mean the opposite extreme -- I'm just stating the facts here.
Pretty characters can exist in Zalanthas just like any other world. But it's probably a good idea to represent somehow the work it takes to keep that character pretty.
Now for the derail topic: I disagree that there's always a direct danger of stepping in breed shit on your way from the door to the bar. Or any shit for that matter. There's far more sand being tracked in and out of that bar than anything else. I'm going to guess it's mostly sand and spilled ale, with piss stains here and there. The shit's what gets tracked in from the dorms. Probably a negligible amount.
I don't know. Maybe some of us have fundamentally different ideas of what the Gaj really is. Are some of us really imagining people shitting in the middle of the floor on a daily basis? I get the breed pissing in the corner thing. I really do. I also imagine that breed catching the attention of some local and getting a good healthy beating because he's a breed, and he's pissing on the floor. A shitting breed would probably get a similar response. Are you really going to expose your ass in the Gaj, of all places?
Now I'm wondering just what the response would actually be if a breed took a shit in the middle of the floor. Future character plan...
Quote from: Alesan on July 15, 2015, 11:00:55 AM
Now for the derail topic: I disagree that there's always a direct danger of stepping in breed shit on your way from the door to the bar. Or any shit for that matter. There's far more sand being tracked in and out of that bar than anything else. I'm going to guess it's mostly sand and spilled ale, with piss stains here and there. The shit's what gets tracked in from the dorms. Probably a negligible amount.
I don't know. Maybe some of us have fundamentally different ideas of what the Gaj really is. Are some of us really imagining people shitting in the middle of the floor on a daily basis? I get the breed pissing in the corner thing. I really do. I also imagine that breed catching the attention of some local and getting a good healthy beating because he's a breed, and he's pissing on the floor. A shitting breed would probably get a similar response. Are you really going to expose your ass in the Gaj, of all places?
Now I'm wondering just what the response would actually be if a breed took a shit in the middle of the floor. Future character plan...
The amount of shit on the floor is not the point. The point is whether it is an appropriate place for various pcs. And it's more that status that determines it. If Lady Fufu likes to get away from the vapid flouncy shits and get a little rough on the side who's to say (except Lady Fufu.) But they need to accept it as they find it. If they think it should be nicer, they're in the wrong bar.
As far as publicly fraternizing with undersirables, no. Not even with breed shit on the floor. It's anthetical to the game world.
Quote from: Barzalene on July 15, 2015, 11:15:31 AM
Quote from: Alesan on July 15, 2015, 11:00:55 AM
Now for the derail topic: I disagree that there's always a direct danger of stepping in breed shit on your way from the door to the bar. Or any shit for that matter. There's far more sand being tracked in and out of that bar than anything else. I'm going to guess it's mostly sand and spilled ale, with piss stains here and there. The shit's what gets tracked in from the dorms. Probably a negligible amount.
I don't know. Maybe some of us have fundamentally different ideas of what the Gaj really is. Are some of us really imagining people shitting in the middle of the floor on a daily basis? I get the breed pissing in the corner thing. I really do. I also imagine that breed catching the attention of some local and getting a good healthy beating because he's a breed, and he's pissing on the floor. A shitting breed would probably get a similar response. Are you really going to expose your ass in the Gaj, of all places?
Now I'm wondering just what the response would actually be if a breed took a shit in the middle of the floor. Future character plan...
The amount of shit on the floor is not the point. The point is whether it is an appropriate place for various pcs. And it's more that status that determines it. If Lady Fufu likes to get away from the vapid flouncy shits and get a little rough on the side who's to say (except Lady Fufu.) But they need to accept it as they find it. If they think it should be nicer, they're in the wrong bar.
As far as publicly fraternizing with undersirables, no. Not even with breed shit on the floor. It's anthetical to the game world.
Well, I agree with the point. Just not with the extreme example given. I may have rambled on a bit in the process.
If someone has lustrous hair, or nice teeth, I don't care.
Now if that someone has lustrous hair AND nice teeth, I'm going to do a double-take and check out the niceness of their clothing, any visible sigils, etc.
"Human teeth" are an in-game item.
I'm not saying you could subdue them and pry their pristine teeth out for crafting/reselling.
But theoretically you could.
Also the amount of clothing and type they are wearing (seeing if they are a whore or an aide or something)
Gaj isn't -that- bad in its descriptions
I always figured the Gaj was just standard fare for grubby, dusty, low-class etc. The room echoes I kind of assume are on par for most commoner areas, so none of it would be super shocking or disgusting.
It's not like 90% of people even get to bathe ever.
The breed pissing in the corner would thereafter be beaten and kicked out. The Gaj is scummy, but it's not actually a latrine. It's just that it caters to the worst of the worst.
Neither the pissing breed nor the woman who projectile vomits bile seem to illicit a reaction from the crowd.
That begging breed girl better gtfo out tho.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on July 15, 2015, 06:12:59 PM
Neither the pissing breed nor the woman who projectile vomits bile seem to illicit a reaction from the crowd.
That begging breed girl better gtfo out tho.
If we all respected the representation the in-game echoes create, no rinthi PCs would be allowed to drink in the Gaj ever. Yet they are. All the time.
I'd either adjust expectations of what the Gaj actually allows or ask that staff clarify the crowd the Gaj caters to and then create proper echoes to replace the ones in existance.
Personally, I don't think the owner of the Gaj gives a shit who is in there. I do think he cares if somebody pisses in the corner. I'd adjust the pissing echo to reflect that fellow getting either the boot, or Ven's cudgel.
Quote from: Delirium on July 15, 2015, 10:08:27 AM
I don't care if you're a newbie or a 100-day old character, vocalizing your disgust at freaks being freaky should not get you ostracized.
Maybe not, but I think most sane people would think that person was suicidal or stupid if they were openly trying to anger and incite the local flamethrowers, fingerwigglers, thieves and cutthroats if they just happen to be minding their own business at the moment. Granted, plenty of PCs aren't sane, but I imagine most of the general populace is.
I know there's a school of thought that every elf and gemmer should be covered in snot and spittle and hateful language the moment they come into view, but like I pointed out in a previous post, the type of person who openly does that would probably not have a very long lifespan.
In fact, I'm fairly certain there's quite a bit of recent IC history that'll speak volumes regarding this sort of thing.
There's a world of difference between 'minding your own business at the bar' and 'doing something egregiously out of the ordinary that invites reaction'.
I think if you read through my posts I'm not suggesting the extreme you're referring to.
Quote from: In Dreams on July 15, 2015, 09:04:44 PM
Quote from: Delirium on July 15, 2015, 10:08:27 AM
I don't care if you're a newbie or a 100-day old character, vocalizing your disgust at freaks being freaky should not get you ostracized.
Maybe not, but I think most sane people would think that person was suicidal or stupid if they were openly trying to anger and incite the local flamethrowers, fingerwigglers, thieves and cutthroats if they just happen to be minding their own business at the moment. Granted, plenty of PCs aren't sane, but I imagine most of the general populace is.
I know there's a school of thought that every elf and gemmer should be covered in snot and spittle and hateful language the moment they come into view, but like I pointed out in a previous post, the type of person who openly does that would probably not have a very long lifespan.
In fact, I'm fairly certain there's quite a bit of recent IC history that'll speak volumes regarding this sort of thing.
My only problem with this post it the way you're lumping undesirables together. they should hate eachother just as much as normal people hate them. The gemmed shouldn't be backed up by breeds or elves in social situations, and vice-versa.
The Red's Retreat isn't really all that nice.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on July 16, 2015, 12:34:07 AM
My only problem with this post it the way you're lumping undesirables together. they should hate eachother just as much as normal people hate them. The gemmed shouldn't be backed up by breeds or elves in social situations, and vice-versa.
I don't think I intended to write anything about their relationship with one another. Sorry if I was unclear in some way, but I don't see that from reading it over again.
Quote from: LauraMars on July 16, 2015, 12:41:20 AM
The Red's Retreat isn't really all that nice.
Yeh, it's not the Traders. But it's not too bad either. I -do- wish they'd enforce the idea that some people shouldn't go in with a bouncer, though.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 16, 2015, 01:23:04 AM
Quote from: LauraMars on July 16, 2015, 12:41:20 AM
The Red's Retreat isn't really all that nice.
Yeh, it's not the Traders. But it's not too bad either. I -do- wish they'd enforce the idea that some people shouldn't go in with a bouncer, though.
Another recent thread. Pretty much agree with the post from that thread that says anyone -can- go into Red's. They just need to be ready for the idea that a noble or templar could come in at any time and have them tossed out. Anyone beyond a noble or templar, though, and I think you're pretty safe.
The idea of aides having people thrown out of Red's is pretty weird to me. Again. Smackdab in the middle of the commoner's quarter. Smells like a slaughterhouse. Not that nice. Undesirable npc's already set up in it. Gambling and games upstairs. It's not a high class place, and shouldn't be policed as such.
That place is created in the form of the Arboretum and the Tor Academy. You will be in trouble for being the wrong person in there.
Quote from: In Dreams on July 16, 2015, 12:54:31 AM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on July 16, 2015, 12:34:07 AM
My only problem with this post it the way you're lumping undesirables together. they should hate eachother just as much as normal people hate them. The gemmed shouldn't be backed up by breeds or elves in social situations, and vice-versa.
I don't think I intended to write anything about their relationship with one another. Sorry if I was unclear in some way, but I don't see that from reading it over again.
Very likely me interpreting and extrapolating incorrectly, my bad.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 16, 2015, 01:23:04 AM
Quote from: LauraMars on July 16, 2015, 12:41:20 AM
The Red's Retreat isn't really all that nice.
Yeh, it's not the Traders. But it's not too bad either. I -do- wish they'd enforce the idea that some people shouldn't go in with a bouncer, though.
Like with the silk thing, who is allowed in there seems to vary based on the pc population's desires and enforcement. And I'm fine with that.
People should hang out in the Gaj because they want to be an actual lower-class Joe blow commoner not because they want to rub elbows with the worst the city has to offer (that's what the bars in the 'rinth are for). They want to be dirty mercenaries and conniving southside elves and bloody hunters and dusty grebbers. Or that gemmed in the corner table looking scary.
Getting pushed out of the Gaj into the Red, well, the current problem is that if you spend too much time in the Red's and sooner or later a bored noble is going to pay attention to you, and probably try to yank you out of the wonderfully lower-class existence you've crafted for your character. The Red's is supposed to be a lower-class bar with a middle-class attitude - that's the place where Merchant House Family, aides, relatively well to do commoners and merchants hang out. Not bored nobles looking for interaction (though I sympathize with them).
We really need to expand the Arboretum so that nobles are more inclined to hang out there. A quit room (totally OOC, doesn't have to be a dorm) so that nobles don't have to walk across the city wnen it's time to log out, and an expanded menu - those two things would go a long way toward making it an actual central hangout for nobles.
Signed, on behalf of the
Git Yer Nobles Outta My Low-Class Bar Coalition
The Allanak tavern situation is fine. We are not going to change it. It's OK for nobles to slum at Red's. They don't do it a lot, but it's OK if they do. They have lots of other places to hang out in Allanak as well, both public and semi-public. We are not going to move toward an environment where there are zero places that nobles and regular commoners might interact; we are already very clear with noble players that they shouldn't be in the Gaj, so if you want a safe zone, that's where it is.
Quote from: Delirium on July 16, 2015, 10:19:33 AM
People should hang out in the Gaj because they want to be an actual lower-class Joe blow commoner not because they want to rub elbows with the worst the city has to offer (that's what the bars in the 'rinth are for). They want to be dirty mercenaries and conniving southside elves and bloody hunters and dusty grebbers. Or that gemmed in the corner table looking scary.
Getting pushed out of the Gaj into the Red, well, the current problem is that if you spend too much time in the Red's and sooner or later a bored noble is going to pay attention to you, and probably try to yank you out of the wonderfully lower-class existence you've crafted for your character. The Red's is supposed to be a lower-class bar with a middle-class attitude - that's the place where Merchant House Family, aides, relatively well to do commoners and merchants hang out. Not bored nobles looking for interaction (though I sympathize with them).
We really need to expand the Arboretum so that nobles are more inclined to hang out there. A quit room (totally OOC, doesn't have to be a dorm) so that nobles don't have to walk across the city wnen it's time to log out, and an expanded menu - those two things would go a long way toward making it an actual central hangout for nobles.
Signed, on behalf of the
Git Yer Nobles Outta My Low-Class Bar Coalition
Nobles have no damn business hanging in the Gaj. None. If you need something at the Gaj., send a commoner to fetch it.
Quote from: Delirium on July 16, 2015, 10:19:33 AM
A quit room (totally OOC, doesn't have to be a dorm) so that nobles don't have to walk across the city wnen it's time to log out, and an expanded menu - those two things would go a long way toward making it an actual central hangout for nobles.
Agree the Arboretum needs a quit room at the very least and more stuff on the menu.
Well we used to have a bar where commoners and nobles could hang out. It was called the Trader's Inn.
It wasn't right smack dab in the center of the Commoner's Quarter either.
It also kept out those disgusting low-life commoners that shouldn't be interacting publicly with nobles. Which IIRC was elves and anyone with dirty clothes.
Quote from: LauraMars on July 16, 2015, 12:03:36 PM
Quote from: Delirium on July 16, 2015, 10:19:33 AM
A quit room (totally OOC, doesn't have to be a dorm) so that nobles don't have to walk across the city wnen it's time to log out, and an expanded menu - those two things would go a long way toward making it an actual central hangout for nobles.
A quit room and a guard loading room would make a difference in how much time I'd spend there as a noble. Or just having the existing ones flagged really.
Agree the Arboretum needs a quit room at the very least and more stuff on the menu.
Reds is a better balance. It sucked sitting alone at Traders. It's not perfect. But its better.
People sat alone at the Trader's because the playerbase wasn't consolidated enough.
Allanak is absolutely packed these days.
I'm not suggesting rebuilding the Traders' (though that'd be great) I'm saying that a public place for nobles to noble that isn't in the commoner's quarter would make WAY more sense.
edit:
I guess I miss the days when there were just three taverns in Allanak proper. The Gaj, the Barrel, the Trader's. It made sense, the social strata and expectations were clear.
It was good game design. The only flaw was that we didn't have enough players in Allanak to do it justice.
Quote from: Delirium on July 16, 2015, 12:46:17 PM
People sat alone at the Trader's because the playerbase wasn't consolidated enough.
Allanak is absolutely packed these days.
I'm not suggesting rebuilding the Traders' (though that'd be great) I'm saying that a public place for nobles to noble that isn't in the commoner's quarter would make WAY more sense.
edit:
I guess I miss the days when there were just three taverns in Allanak proper. The Gaj, the Barrel, the Trader's. It made sense, the social strata and expectations were clear.
It was good game design. The only flaw was that we didn't have enough players in Allanak to do it justice.
Completely agree.
It tickles me that the Azure Dragon, which does seem legitimately swank and exclusive, is completely absent from this conversation. Granted, it does suffer the same "problem" as the Red's by being in the Commoner's Quarter (along with 2 Oash compounds, the Tor Academy, and a Borsail barracks).
Quote from: BadSkeelz on July 16, 2015, 01:31:35 PM
It tickles me that the Azure Dragon, which does seem legitimately swank and exclusive, is completely absent from this conversation. Granted, it does suffer the same "problem" as the Red's by being in the Commoner's Quarter (along with 2 Oash compounds, the Tor Academy, and a Borsail barracks).
Just because you're employed by a Noble House doesn't mean you're not still a filthy peasant. I.e. that's where those compounds belong.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on July 16, 2015, 01:31:35 PM
It tickles me that the Azure Dragon, which does seem legitimately swank and exclusive, is completely absent from this conversation. Granted, it does suffer the same "problem" as the Red's by being in the Commoner's Quarter (along with 2 Oash compounds, the Tor Academy, and a Borsail barracks).
The Azure Dragon isn't a tavern. It used to be a wine shop, then it was built into a tavern (through PC effort), then it was burned down (during an HRPT), then it was re-built into a wine shop (through PC effort). So it's now not a tavern and isn't going to be a tavern.
It sells booze and has a place to sit and you can theoretically socialize there. That's close enough to a tavern for me.
Unless staff are going to animate the mercenaries and have them subdue-drag people off the bar and throw them out.
It's a tasting bar, not a tavern. I guess that could get a bit confusing but it's a totally different vibe.
You go there to try before you buy and schmooze a bit with the owners, but you don't go there to party and get krunk.
I guess I'm viewing it through the lens of a place in my town that bills itself as a wine tasting bar, but always has an animated (if relatively subdued) crowd and smells disconcertingly of sex.
I think that just making the balcony of the Arboretum a quit room would do just fine. No need for any building to be done. I don't remember the menu there, but if it could be expanded, I'm betting that there's at least one Allanak clan with players that could make that happen, if not two or three.
Player plots, baby. They can be big or small.
^ What that guy said.
I'd love it if that guard would let noble house employees through too, its always such a pain to have to get up and let people in when you're playing a noble and tell your servant to bring you and your noble friends some ACTUAL FOOD to eat.
Quote from: LauraMars on July 16, 2015, 12:41:20 AM
The Red's Retreat isn't really all that nice.
Exactly. It would probably be considered quaint or decidedly mediocre on a noble's standard.
Kind of like going into Boston Pizza. Comfortable enough but rather low brow.
Quote from: LauraMars on July 16, 2015, 05:43:38 PM
I'd love it if that guard would let noble house employees through too, its always such a pain to have to get up and let people in when you're playing a noble and tell your servant to bring you and your noble friends some ACTUAL FOOD to eat.
Because of that one time an aide let's an undesirable through the door, and the place has to be doused in cleaning fluid. :P
There is an upscale bar for the Socially Elite who can afford it with guards to keep the trash out. Its called the Atrium.
I play a lot of pretty pale people. That said, I tend to RP myself as being completely wrapped up and wanting to get out of the sun ASAP when I do. At least in the desert. But yeah, I have a ton of pretty guilt. I'm better about it when I play physical classes, but give me a merchant or a Viv and they're going to be more fabulous than you.
>Not playing for style points.
Ah hell nah we going to look like shit but be styling as fuck.
Merchant is the swag class 2018, and thief if you aren't a black clothes wearing panzy, you better wear more bling than you have physical item slots.
Specially if you are a Viv. Clean your self every hour, on the hour, radiate water, make your own water magic deodorant, the choice is yours.
Play what you wanna play, within the documents. Fuck overly critical players on any sort of high horse when it comes to playing. Do what pleases you; being pretty is the smallest little thing that you shouldn't have guilt or second guesses about it all. Now, if you're playing a happy go lucky hippy in the Rinth, you might run it by staff first. But a pretty girl or boy? Just. Ugh. Ignore the haters.
What boog said. Just like others criticizing your rp, playstyle or role vaguely on gdb, just ignore them and play on.
Play within the documents makes everything fine.
Play believably. I'm fine with pretty. But flawless gorgeous perfectly groomed lustrous-haired manicured "porn-star-described" characters in the Byn, the Arm, as a hunter in a GMH, or a rinthi, just - aren't believable. I just wish people who write those kinds of descriptions, whose characters get into situations where those descriptions make no sense, would use TDESC to indicate a change.
Quote from: Asche on December 02, 2015, 07:15:55 PM
I play a lot of pretty pale people. That said, I tend to RP myself as being completely wrapped up and wanting to get out of the sun ASAP when I do. At least in the desert. But yeah, I have a ton of pretty guilt. I'm better about it when I play physical classes, but give me a merchant or a Viv and they're going to be more fabulous than you.
To be fair, almost all the females in the Dark Sun artwork are pretty and even pale -- what's up with that sort of weird ash-coloured skin a lot of them seem to have? (Plug in "Dark Sun" into google images.)
(http://actualplay.roleplayingpublicradio.com/wp-content/uploads/br_71.jpg)
Noticed this. Note the stars. Didn't someone mention that in the original Dark Sun there are no stars due to (((zoned out at the nerd metaphysics))) sphere?
Quote from: nauta on December 03, 2015, 07:32:22 PM
Quote from: Asche on December 02, 2015, 07:15:55 PM
I play a lot of pretty pale people. That said, I tend to RP myself as being completely wrapped up and wanting to get out of the sun ASAP when I do. At least in the desert. But yeah, I have a ton of pretty guilt. I'm better about it when I play physical classes, but give me a merchant or a Viv and they're going to be more fabulous than you.
To be fair, almost all the females in the Dark Sun artwork are pretty and even pale -- what's up with that sort of weird ash-coloured skin a lot of them seem to have? (Plug in "Dark Sun" into google images.)
(http://actualplay.roleplayingpublicradio.com/wp-content/uploads/br_71.jpg)
Noticed this. Note the stars. Didn't someone mention that in the original Dark Sun there are no stars due to (((zoned out at the nerd metaphysics))) sphere?
Dear god, I Wanna nerd out but I don't own the book anymore and can't find a reference on hand.
I Want to say, at lest during the Prism Pentad series there was stars, whether that fall in line with the latest editions of Dark Sun I dunno. I distinctly remember that picture is from A book called The Amber Enchantress and vaguely remember stars being mentioned during some points in the third act.
Although I can't think of a specific passage or line, so I could be mistaken.
Ender and I found a bunch of legit Darksun stuff tucked away in a box a while ago, but it got shelved and we've been too distracted to go through it.
Now I really want to try and remedy that this weekend.
Quote from: Delirium on December 04, 2015, 04:20:59 PM
Ender and I found a bunch of legit Darksun stuff tucked away in a box a while ago, but it got shelved and we've been too distracted to go through it.
Now I really want to try and remedy that this weekend.
I found my original Dark Sun campaign setting box set a few weeks ago in the attic. It totally doesn't date me.
Dark Sun original box is all that was ever printed of the Dark Sun franchise. Maybe some of the first few splatbooks. Everything else before 4th Ed. doesn't exist. There are no biowizard halflings. That is a lie. They don't exist.
...halflings were in the prism pentad.
I enjoyed those books. Rikus the Mul, Sadira the Sorcereress...it was actually out of that book, the mindbender retainer to the templar that visits the gladiator cages to read Rikus's mind, that made me try to app something similar only to be told that templars would kill mindbenders, not retain them. Ah well.
Descriptions of the Way through Agis were pretty cool though.
The best part of the Dark Sun stuff was the Thri Kreen empire.