Prettiness Guilt

[Narf]

I don't know why people get so bent outta shape about it in game.

If Lady Oash has as big of a bank account as Lord Oash, then huzzah they are equal!

Because at the end of the day there is no documentation that says female can't do what male can.

In a position of social or simply coded power and don't like how someone treats you as a man or woman? Kill them, have them beaten, etc etc but handle it in game.

It's a bit of an issue because Zalanthas doesn't have a (canon) history of sexually diversified jobs or talents. Because of this, it shouldn't occur to a character rping in the cannon world that there would be a difference in ability based on sex. They don't have a historical or cultural context ICly to draw this attitude from, even on an individual level.

[Is Friday]

Except for ret-conned Jihaen/Lirathans. But yeah! Totes.

[Case]

Except for ret-conned Jihaen/Lirathans. But yeah! Totes.

They weren't retconned

[Asmoth]

Sexism doesn't happen in Armageddon. I have also seen a few instances of things like that. "You hit like a girl!". I've seen that a few times.

It gets reported every time.

Again this is "If Asmoth was an Admin".

But if you filed a player report because someone said "You hit like a girl" I would send you a harshly worded letter about wasting my time.

Now if the person consistently portrayed a "Men are better than women" attitude and you were reporting a string of occurrences in a "Please let them know this isn't the way they should do things." manner than a "MOOOOMMM! They said something they shouldn't I'm telling!" way that this came across.  That's different.

[Clearsighted]

Wow, didn't realize misogyny was so prevalent in-game.  Makes me kinda sad

I don't think it's fair to characterize someone as guilty of misandry, when basically they're your average Western citizen dealing with millenia of biological and social evolution, living in an age where such notions about gender, sex and our economic values to society is being radically transformed from its agricultural tradition. If anything, fantasy games and roleplaying communities are exceptional for their relative lack of misogyny. Maybe because there are so many men playing women, that they're more in touch with their feminine side...

If you want to see true misogyny, try spending a little time in Turkey or even India. Great places if you're a guy, even in this day and age they'll treat you with sublime hospitality (I loved it). Completely ridiculous in some cases for the girls, who dealt with constant harassment and creepy incidents from all sides and every strata of society they encountered. I've seen a bit of the world, and about 75% of it is a geographic and cultural shithole. Even Europe is incredibly racist. Northern Europe is all right on the corruption index/sexism scale, but Southern Europe drags the median waaay down.

Needless to say, having grown up in a media/academic environment where I was conditioned to believing America was less sensitive, less enlightened, more intolerant and more racist than the rest of the world, reality was a rude awakening.

[Desertman]

Sexism doesn't happen in Armageddon. I have also seen a few instances of things like that. "You hit like a girl!". I've seen that a few times.

It gets reported every time.

Again this is "If Asmoth was an Admin".

But if you filed a player report because someone said "You hit like a girl" I would send you a harshly worded letter about wasting my time.

Now if the person consistently portrayed a "Men are better than women" attitude and you were reporting a string of occurrences in a "Please let them know this isn't the way they should do things." manner than a "MOOOOMMM! They said something they shouldn't I'm telling!" way that this came across.  That's different.

I may not be there for every time they decide to break the rules that are pretty easy to follow. I am a player. You are an Admin (in this scenario). It is my job to report these things AS I see them, and your job to look into the matter.

Let's say I don't report this one instance I was around for, but this person is doing it constantly, I'm just not able to be around.

As an Admin, you would be able to look into their play and do something about it.

As a player, if I don't report it, I just took away your chance to do that. I just took away your ability to teach this person how to better play Armageddon. Not only did I not help, I arguably compounded the issue...all because you don't want players "wasting your time", by reporting rule breakers unless they can provide multiple instances of someone breaking the rules all in one report.

[BadSkeelz]

Saying someone "hits a like a girl" is inferring that men are better than women (At least when it comes to hitting things). It also makes no sense for the Armageddon setting considering that there are no differences in strength between the sexes.


It's a thing I see from newbies, mostly. I'm irked by it, but also by not really knowing how to correct them in game without resulting to OOC (which I really don't want to do).

[Barzalene]

If they aren't taking you seriously it isn't because, "People don't take pretty women seriously...oh the persecution of my gender.", it is because you aren't dangerous enough to demand respect.

Well, yes...but also no. E.g. playing a militia Sergeant who was a hottie AND was also a fucking badass with a vicious streak, with many PCs in the city being pretty legit terrified of her? I still had to deal with assholes in the jail cells saying things like, "I won't take orders from a woman!" (True fucking story!) Also with minions whose attitudes were clearly based on the fact that both the player and the PC were female; my leadership was seen as less authoritative because I'm a woman.

Sexism does happen in game, Dman. You're just gonna have to take my word for it.

Sexism doesn't happen in Armageddon. I have also seen a few instances of things like that. "You hit like a girl!". I've seen that a few times.

It gets reported every time.

Now, you are saying, "I saw it with my PC so that is why I'm not treated with the respect I deserve!". No, a few people who do not know how to play the game and should be reported until they change their behavior or are banned aren't following the rules.

You know who I don't care about? People who are so new or are so bad at the game that they don't know/do not follow the rules.

Somehow, I don't think these sorts of people are so important to the politics of the game world that them not, "giving your super dangerous PC that everyone was so afraid of" respect, really matters......if these sorts of people DO matter to your PC, your PC isn't as dangerous or important as you think they are.

I've seen these sorts of things said in game, I agree.....but not by anyone where it would ever matter an ounce to the circle my PC's generally run in. They also go reported.

I've also seen a newbie dwarf ask people repeatedly about hunting orcs. He was not reflective or "real Armageddon.".

I've seen a guy talk about wanting to build a "horseless carriage". He was not reflective or "real Armageddon".

I've seen a guy talk about building his own city one day once he learned magick in the middle of the Gaj. He was not reflective of "real Armageddon".

You had a few newbtards say some sexist things about your PC's. They didn't respect you because your PC was a woman. My point is, if it affected your character in any way at all...your character really WASN'T as truly hardcore as you imagine they were.

If your character was really a badass and really did demand and deserve a huge level of respect...these nubs saying these things never affected you or your character at all.

Now I disagree. Are you surprised?
It's not that we (or I) am saying "Crap. All you fucking male players, not respecting my pcs, not playing the game right. It's a chore to be a woman." If that were the case, I don't know that I'd have any interest in playing here. But there is more random sexism based ickiness in various forms going on than you see.
One reason you might not notice it, is that I think women think some things are icky that don't throw up flags for me. You just have to take my word for it. I've never lied to you before. I'm not starting now. Really. Icky happens.
What also happens on the the boards is the idea of the fme pc who isn't really earning all she gets by merit, but rather because she's an fme pc. (Which I probably shouldn't mention because yeah, we've had that conversation already.) This is pertinent only because it is something to be factored when making a description. (Maybe that's just me.)

[Asmoth]

Sexism doesn't happen in Armageddon. I have also seen a few instances of things like that. "You hit like a girl!". I've seen that a few times.

It gets reported every time.

Again this is "If Asmoth was an Admin".

But if you filed a player report because someone said "You hit like a girl" I would send you a harshly worded letter about wasting my time.

Now if the person consistently portrayed a "Men are better than women" attitude and you were reporting a string of occurrences in a "Please let them know this isn't the way they should do things." manner than a "MOOOOMMM! They said something they shouldn't I'm telling!" way that this came across.  That's different.

I may not be there for every time they decide to break the rules that are pretty easy to follow. I am a player. You are an Admin (in this scenario). It is my job to report these things AS I see them, and your job to look into the matter.

Let's say I don't report this one instance I was around for, but this person is doing it constantly, I'm just not able to be around.

As an Admin, you would be able to look into their play and do something about it.

As a player, if I don't report it, I just took away your chance to do that. I just took away your ability to teach this person how to better play Armageddon. Not only did I not help, I arguably compounded the issue...all because you don't want players "wasting your time", by reporting rule breakers unless they can provide multiple instances of someone breaking the rules all in one report.

More of what I meant to say is that there are TONS of ways you could attempt to correct him icly.

Running to admin with such a small (in the scope of things) complaint is silly.  Solve it at the lowest level.

Show them they are talking crazy in your IC response to their crazy ass statement.

Talk (arching an eyebrow and looking at ~fella strangely) What the fuck are you talking about, what does her having tits have to do with how hard she'll hit you in the nose?

[RogueGunslinger]

Having played a female Sergeant in AoD and many other gurl leaders, I can relate to Gimf's plight. I remember this one time my PC was dragging some idiot to the cells and he shouted "YOU POWER HUNGRY BITCH!" So she knocked him out then continued dragging him to the cells.

My one attempt at an attractive female was pretty fun, but there were a couple ridiculous and silly come-ons with crude comments that would be incredibly demeaning in real life, made me roll my eyes and I really had to fight the urge to use OOC to laugh at them.

I want to say that characters name but I'm pretty sure it was too recent. Which is weird, feels like years ago now.

[Jihelu]

So is there like straight up no ic difference between men and women in Zalananthatatas?
Because in real life, you know, women (Usually) hit less hard than men.
That sweet testosterone.
Helps me be manly.

Or maybe I'm just stupid.

I also know there isn't an ooc difference.

[RogueGunslinger]

The only difference is that women have children in zalanthas.

[Jihelu]

The only difference is that women have children in zalanthas.

Male Dwarven focus to have a child. Next character incoming.

[Clearsighted]

So is there like straight up no ic difference between men and women in Zalananthatatas?
Because in real life, you know, women (Usually) hit less hard than men.
That sweet testosterone.
Helps me be manly.

Or maybe I'm just stupid.

I also know there isn't an ooc difference.

It's really better to not think about it too much. Of course IRL, the average man is to the average woman, what a mul is to a human in Zalanthas. (If you don't believe me, ask any woman who has ever trained in combat sports). There are many biological reasons for this, some of which relate to the capacity for childbirth.

But Zalanthas is a fantasy society, with fantasy tropes, and as such, it's best interpreted in that light. Think of it as Joss Whedon logic (Joss is famous for tiny heroines who are super agile and powerful hand to hand combatants). Nothing wrong with it.

[Case]

Last time I weighed in on this topic, I noted that how the discussion is always female characters and their relationship to the 'baseline' of the male image or male characterisation. Everybody's always trying to argue why it's so hard, or obviously difficult, to elevate women to equality with men.

If these are the perspectives of the playerbase, no wonder that shit plays out IG.

[Asmoth]

Last time I weighed in on this topic, I noted that how the discussion is always female characters and their relationship to the 'baseline' of the male image or male characterisation. Everybody's always trying to argue why it's so hard, or obviously difficult, to elevate women to equality with men.

If these are the perspectives of the playerbase, no wonder that shit plays out IG.

Well the whole "Equality in game" is there so that Armageddon is open to the whole community and men or women don't feel inferior or superior for being good at anything.

Say a male character is one of the best cooks around and a female is the best fighter. In some people's view of gender norms, that would be odd.

Now if you look at it in comparison to real life, a male with "average" strength is still going to be stronger than a female with "average" strength because genetically, (Unless she's just one of those random HUGE women Chyna from WWE) normally women are weaker.

So what it all boils down to is that it was coded that way, that gender has no effect on stats/skills so that people wouldn't play men for a coded advantage and women wouldn't have to feel odd playing a man for the same.  (I might not be saying this right, but I hope you get what I mean).

My take has always been that, all the women I know take entirely too much shit in real life, getting hit on, dealing with pay/job discrimination etc etc, that it would be wrong to give them shit in a game they play for funzies.

So sure, all women are built like Chyna in Armageddon and can physically beat my male characters down in the game potentially.  Suspension of belief is fine.

[LauraMars]

[Desertman]

Last time I weighed in on this topic, I noted that how the discussion is always female characters and their relationship to the 'baseline' of the male image or male characterisation. Everybody's always trying to argue why it's so hard, or obviously difficult, to elevate women to equality with men.

If these are the perspectives of the playerbase, no wonder that shit plays out IG.

The reason for this is that most people equate "gritty and hardcore" with "able to fight".

The raw fact is, men make better fighters than women because of biology. There are some extreme exceptions to the rule in terms of prodigies etc...(Ronda Rousey for example), but outside of that, the norm is that women are weaker than men.

In Zalanthas, how strong you are generally dictates how much power you have...at least until you get into things like politics and wealth.

This is why people keep trying to "bring women up to the same level as men"...because in real life, that would be the case.

[Beethoven]

If this thread is not going to get split off, I suppose I have a few things to say about sexism as someone who plays both men and women (although historically I have played more men.)

I don't usually see the overt "lol but ur a gurl" sort of sexism. When I do, it's easy enough to lay the smack down on that person, and pretty much everyone around does the same. I don't mind that so much because it's easy to stomp out.

It's actually with my male characters that I have seen more misogyny. Some male PCs get kind of the "bro" attitude with my male PCs, and start griping about women and their nature, how emotional/whiny/needy/clingy they are, etc. And overall, I see the attitude reinforced that men are the rugged combatants while females are the floofy crafter/aide/prostitute types. There are various ways that is expressed, including assuming that a people in leadership roles, especially combat leadership roles, are going to be male, or showing more inherent respect for male leadership. Expecting males to meet a certain standard of grit, ruggedness, bravado, and combat prowess while not expecting the same of females. Not being willing to strike females, or being more reluctant.

Do females have a hand in this? Probably. I just haven't noticed it as much. I notice females enforcing misogyny in real life a lot more often than I have IG. That is just my experience, however.

[Case]

Last time I weighed in on this topic, I noted that how the discussion is always female characters and their relationship to the 'baseline' of the male image or male characterisation. Everybody's always trying to argue why it's so hard, or obviously difficult, to elevate women to equality with men.

If these are the perspectives of the playerbase, no wonder that shit plays out IG.

The reason for this is that most people equate "gritty and hardcore" with "able to fight".

The raw fact is, men make better fighters than women because of biology. There are some extreme exceptions to the rule in terms of prodigies etc...(Ronda Rousey for example), but outside of that, the norm is that women are weaker than men.

In Zalanthas, how strong you are generally dictates how much power you have...at least until you get into things like politics and wealth.

This is why people keep trying to "bring women up to the same level as men"...because in real life, that would be the case.

I'm aware. I've heard how weak I am all my life.

[Jihelu]

IRL wise I've heard and seen women degrade them selves more than I've seen men. I also get shit on for having a pink phone case all the time. The fuck is wrong with me having something pretty?

In game wise I don't think I've ever seen this happen.

[Asmoth]

IRL wise I've heard and seen women degrade them selves more than I've seen men. I also get shit on for having a pink phone case all the time. The fuck is wrong with me having something pretty?

In game wise I don't think I've ever seen this happen.

Just to understand the context... Are you a man or woman?

[LauraMars]

At this point the derail is too long and peppered with off-topic off-topicness to split with any neatness.

all I ask is that everyone remain civil.

[Jihelu]

IRL wise I've heard and seen women degrade them selves more than I've seen men. I also get shit on for having a pink phone case all the time. The fuck is wrong with me having something pretty?

In game wise I don't think I've ever seen this happen.

Just to understand the context... Are you a man or woman?

Male. Hence people thinking I can't have pink.

[Asmoth]

IRL wise I've heard and seen women degrade them selves more than I've seen men. I also get shit on for having a pink phone case all the time. The fuck is wrong with me having something pretty?

In game wise I don't think I've ever seen this happen.

Just to understand the context... Are you a man or woman?

Male. Hence people thinking I can't have pink.

Interesting...