Too direct about sex? (please read before voting)

[a strange shadow]

While I agree with this wholeheartedly:

I've had some pretty lousy come ons in the past, though, and find that it's easiest to manage this by creating characters who are, for whatever reason, very selective in how they deal with sexual situations.  I suppose it could come off looking like discomfort, but it's probably not.  Beyond that, you're dealing with a group of women who regularly plot the murder, ruin, and destruction of other characters (as well as occasionally our own).  My guess is that it'd take quite a lot to phase us.

In regards to the game's current stance on not forcing a player through rape scenarios:

I will not support ANY change to this rule in any way.

[Gimfalisette]

In regards to the game's current stance on not forcing a player through rape scenarios:

I will not support ANY change to this rule in any way.

Yeah, me three or four or whatever number it is we're up to on this.

As to the original question: Yes, I think that the roleplayed emphasis on sexuality toward female PCs can sometimes be off-putting to female players. I found it off-putting at first, but adapted when I did the analysis and realized that the average ARM player is a girlfriendless, 23-year-old, nerdy, white, American guy. Which is to say: Eminently slappable and responds well to training.

[shadeoux]

I think the answer is more female pkillers. Here's a fun project... people who normally play PvP roles and enjoy pkilling and permadeath... how about all of us start making female characters and regularly murder male characters who bring their real-life prejudices too frequently into Zalanthas. I think that'd help the situation wonderfully. Amazons and Valkyries of the world: Unite!

Next concept indeed beware

[musashi]

I really don't think anyone has suggested forcing people to RP through rape, and I highly doubt the consent rule is going anywhere. Let's let the rape derail die as it's just whipping folks into an emotional frenzy.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Quote from: Krishnamurti on July 26, 2009, 12:20:36 AM
I think the answer is more female pkillers. Here's a fun project... people who normally play PvP roles and enjoy pkilling and permadeath... how about all of us start making female characters and regularly murder male characters who bring their real-life prejudices too frequently into Zalanthas. I think that'd help the situation wonderfully. Amazons and Valkyries of the world: Unite!

Next concept indeed beware

Does this mean that threesomes will suddenly become easy to land in the Gaj? Giggity-giggity-alriiiight!

[DustMight]

Quote from: Krishnamurti on July 26, 2009, 12:20:36 AM
I think the answer is more female pkillers. Here's a fun project... people who normally play PvP roles and enjoy pkilling and permadeath... how about all of us start making female characters and regularly murder male characters who bring their real-life prejudices too frequently into Zalanthas. I think that'd help the situation wonderfully. Amazons and Valkyries of the world: Unite!

Done. 

[AmandaGreathouse]

Does this mean that threesomes will suddenly become easy to land in the Gaj? Giggity-giggity-alriiiight!

They aren't?

Oh... wait... you meant with male pc's getting two chicks.

* AmandaGreathouse laughs hard.

[spicemustflow]

I'm sorry, but my personal opinion is that if someone wants consent on both counts, I don't want to play with them.  The only thing I could imagine is that they can't get away with it in real life so they bring it to the game.  No thanks.  I can see and understand someone not fading on normal sex.  I can understand someone playing a violent and depraved character that would rape someone.  I can NOT see any sane, well-balanced person actually wanting to enact a rape scene however, unless it is a re-enactment for educational/informative purposes.

To summarize, I'm fine with the rules they way they are.  I am not uncomfortable with them.  I don't think anyone should be.  You can shield yourself from things you find distasteful.  Don't act out rape, though.

In real life you can't get away with murder, cannibalism, torture, stealing babies, selling slaves, impaling people on spikes or throwing them into the beetle-filled pits. If we took out everything that's unacceptable IRL, what would be left for the game? I am not a big fan of murder IRL, but I'd love to play a successful assassin. I've had a female char (by no means f-me, unless you're a sick elf loving degenerate irl) who was, if not raped, then violated. I don't think the player behind the other char was sick or unbalanced. Just as I don't think people who app southern templars are sadistic freaks. Or people who play violent mercenaries are cutthroat sociopaths.

Game, escape from your cubicle, fantasy being the keywords here. Is reading the Books of Blood enough to label you a maniac? Watching a splatter horror movie? Drama about a rape victim? No. You have every right to find rape & torture distasteful and sensitive and OOC such thoughts, but please refrain from judging the mental state of another player.

[Nyr]

Thus the reason I suggested a roll in the RARE case this happens, rather than just ignoring it completely.

It is good that you are offering suggestions, but I think this is one area in particular that the staff will not ever budge on.  If you don't have consent for a rape plotline from the person that will be the victim, you can't pursue it, period.

Not that I am saying I am even interested in the idea of a roll for this, but I'm not sure how it would work without being a completely dickish move.

"Consent for rape plot?"
"No."
"Ok.  Well, I am going to roll for it anyway."
"..."

To reiterate, if you don't have consent for a rape plotline, you cannot pursue it.  Don't.  This isn't a matter of realism, this is a matter of policy.

[musashi]

I'm sorry, but my personal opinion is that if someone wants consent on both counts, I don't want to play with them.  The only thing I could imagine is that they can't get away with it in real life so they bring it to the game.  No thanks.  I can see and understand someone not fading on normal sex.  I can understand someone playing a violent and depraved character that would rape someone.  I can NOT see any sane, well-balanced person actually wanting to enact a rape scene however, unless it is a re-enactment for educational/informative purposes.

To summarize, I'm fine with the rules they way they are.  I am not uncomfortable with them.  I don't think anyone should be.  You can shield yourself from things you find distasteful.  Don't act out rape, though.

In real life you can't get away with murder, cannibalism, torture, stealing babies, selling slaves, impaling people on spikes or throwing them into the beetle-filled pits. If we took out everything that's unacceptable IRL, what would be left for the game? I am not a big fan of murder IRL, but I'd love to play a successful assassin. I've had a female char (by no means f-me, unless you're a sick elf loving degenerate irl) who was, if not raped, then violated. I don't think the player behind the other char was sick or unbalanced. Just as I don't think people who app southern templars are sadistic freaks. Or people who play violent mercenaries are cutthroat sociopaths.

Game, escape from your cubicle, fantasy being the keywords here. Is reading the Books of Blood enough to label you a maniac? Watching a splatter horror movie? Drama about a rape victim? No. You have every right to find rape & torture distasteful and sensitive and OOC such thoughts, but please refrain from judging the mental state of another player.

This is a very valid point. Wanting to explore something in the realm of fantasy does not equal wanting to do said action in the real world. If you (in the generic sense) can not imagine why someone would want to do or not do something other than because they must be a bad person ... then I'm sorry to say it, but that is a lack of imagination on your part, and has nothing to do with the other person.

So if a character is being overly direct about sex in the game world, I would personally not jump to the conclusion that it must be because the character's player is a bad person (however you'd like to describe "bad" be it, geeky and sex starved, closet pervert, ect ect). Rather I would just assume said person is playing a role and respond IC as I think my character would because ... after all, I'm playing a role too.

[spawnloser]

There is a difference between rape and the rest of those, though.  There are clear boundaries between sanity and the insane when it comes to murder and cannibalism... pushing someone into a spike-filled pit or torturing them... well, unless you're the US government on the last one, but to the rest of us it's clear.  Rape is one of those things, though, that some people actually do think is okay.  People that commit murders (to pick out the easiest one to make the comparison with) DO know that murder is wrong, but make allowances for their cause or for emotional extremes.  People that commit rape think the victim deserved it 99% of the time.  They think that what they did wasn't wrong.  It is NOT something I want coming into this game without BOTH parties understanding and acceptance that it is just a plotline before it can happen... and even then, acting it out?

Oh, and the average person isn't out looking to do murder, torture or spike-filled pit pushing.  Only a small percentage of the population LOOKS for opportunities to do that.  The only reason players look to do that is because they're trying to win instead of make a good story.  The characters I've seen/heard of that are verifiable psychos that do seek to do all this, most of them are just griefers.


Oh, and yes, I do assume that most of you are horny dumb-asses that aren't getting laid enough.  Remember, there's no wymynz on the intranets.  The average player of these sorts of games is a pasty, teen-ager to 20-something nerd.

Still, just because someone wants sex or whatever, in game.  I don't judge the player based on the character.  I understand 'typicals' like I mentioned just a bit ago, but I don't judge the player because of a desire to do something that is natural to want to do... but when people start desiring to do unnatural stuff, that's when I start looking closer and start making judgements.  The one that I can say, I already did... I can not imagine how a sane and well-balanced individual would want to play out that scene.  Rape should make you feel dirty, just like if you see it in a movie.  If it doesn't, I worry about you.

[musashi]

I'm going to be honest, I only read half of your first paragraph and just from that, it seems to me like you're worked up again.

Racism is rampant in game, we all RP it out ... some people in RL also think racism is ok, but I'd like to think that all of us big people playing the game know the difference.

Since that "difference" you opened your post with is in fact, not exclusive to rape, as I just showed you, I'm inclined to think that people who might RP rape could have the capaticy to still understand that it isn't ok IRL.

Please calm down dude, and let it go. No one is trying to force anyone else to RP out rape. We're just saying that it is possible for a person who might be interested in RP'ing out a rape plot-line, to not actually be a rapist. The same way they might not actually be a murderer/torturer/racist/sex addict/animal cruelity supporter/atheist/witch.

This is make believe, and I dare say all of us understand that and know where the lines are.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Spawn, I have to disagree with you on this one, bud. Sometimes it's something that the character needs to tell their story, whether it's played out and implied. The player of the assaulting character has a vision for their character, and there is no reason they should not play their character the way they see it, within the lines lain out by the consent rule. There is also no reason that one should assume that the player is sick because their character is.

If you wanted to be honest, rape is probably a more natural instinct in real life than murder, or at least on the same level. But that's irrelevant. You and I may never play a character who wants to rape people (I know I won't), but some of us play some dark characters, and I think it's all part of the story. You may note that there are plenty of characters in books who commit rapes, even if just implied.

I go by the rule of not judging anybody, and I try to follow it. It makes playing much much enjoyable.

[DustMight]

Actually further thinking about this poll - it really should be limited to female voters.  It doesn't matter, really what males think makes women mudders uncomfortable, but what women mudders find uncomfortable.  If i read the poll question correctly.

[musashi]

Like I had said a bit earlier, according to the polls, and nearly all of the women who posted replies, the answer has been: No, it doesn't really bother us.

[domwriter]

Actually further thinking about this poll - it really should be limited to female voters.  It doesn't matter, really what males think makes women mudders uncomfortable, but what women mudders find uncomfortable.  If i read the poll question correctly.

True, but in a game like Arm you have a balance in somethings. I've had male characters raped by females characters before and once or twice a male character raped by a male. I think you did right by posting a poll that doesn't exclude a male voter, like myself.

[spawnloser]

I'm going to be honest, I only read half of your first paragraph and just from that, it seems to me like you're worked up again.

Then don't argue with me if you can't read the arguments that you're opposing.  I'm being challenged on a position and I'm defending it.  If you're not going to read the defense of that position, I won't bother responding to anything else you have to say either.

I will say one thing, though, about what I am responding to...

Yes, I'm worked up.  A few of my female friends have been raped while I was friends with them.  I've seen what it does to them.  This is something that I do feel strongly about.

Spawn, I have to disagree with you on this one, bud. Sometimes it's something that the character needs to tell their story, whether it's played out and implied. The player of the assaulting character has a vision for their character, and there is no reason they should not play their character the way they see it, within the lines lain out by the consent rule. There is also no reason that one should assume that the player is sick because their character is.

If you wanted to be honest, rape is probably a more natural instinct in real life than murder, or at least on the same level. But that's irrelevant. You and I may never play a character who wants to rape people (I know I won't), but some of us play some dark characters, and I think it's all part of the story. You may note that there are plenty of characters in books who commit rapes, even if just implied.

I go by the rule of not judging anybody, and I try to follow it. It makes playing much much enjoyable.

I may indeed play a character that wants to rape people.  I will never ask for consent to play it out, though, rather than FTB.  I'm not saying that it is less of a natural instinct than murder.  I'm saying it's a more depraved thing to think is okay.  (I do believe there are people better off dead.  I do NOT think there are people better off raped... EVER.)  I said an opinion, that I find it deplorable that someone would want to play it out.  A FTB can include all the information needed.

Just to be clear.  I'm not saying that characters should not rape characters.  I'm saying that players shouldn't want to play out a rape scene in the mud.  If you do, I really think you need to examine that urge.



Still, as has been pointed out, this is a major derail.  I'm done with this topic fork.

[musashi]

No one is arguing with you. There is nothing to argue about. You just have an opinion not shared my myself and several other folks on the boards. Calm down please.

More in the spirit of the thread's topic. I'm wondering if this has been a mostly Allanaki experience? Everyone keeps referencing the Gaj in their posts, but I've never seen sex so blatantly the focus of conversation in Tuluk.

[Is Friday]

Everyone keeps referencing the Gaj in their posts, but I've never seen sex so blatantly the focus of conversation in Tuluk.

You obviously never met a certain Salarri agent up there. 

[musashi]

Apparently not :-)

I'm just wondering if folks are taking the Gaj's particular ... setting ... as an absolute anything goes type of place.

[spicemustflow]

Spawnloser, you realize that the consent system is a foolproof mechanism? No one who'd be offended by a rape scene isn't required to even fade through it, let alone play it out. I'm not sure what the fuss is about. If you think that people who play 'dark characters' can't distinguish between the game and reality and retain their Kurgan mindset when they log off, then you're insulting your fellow players.

Also, to add, thinking that raping someone in game stems from not getting laid enough IRL is laughable. What, then, is the cause of other crimes against the body where the perpetrator thinks that the victim 'deserved it'?

[spawnloser]

Spawnloser, you realize that the consent system is a foolproof mechanism? No one who'd be offended by a rape scene isn't required to even fade through it, let alone play it out. I'm not sure what the fuss is about. If you think that people who play 'dark characters' can't distinguish between the game and reality and retain their Kurgan mindset when they log off, then you're insulting your fellow players.

Also, to add, thinking that raping someone in game stems from not getting laid enough IRL is laughable. What, then, is the cause of other crimes against the body where the perpetrator thinks that the victim 'deserved it'?

My entire argument stems from someone suggesting that there be a roll to determine if rape would happen regardless of consent.  Consent would still be required to play out the scene in that suggestion.  Read the thread.  My argument was that if someone was that hellbent on raping someone in game, they need to take a step back and figure out why they think that.

[Lizzie]

Then your entire arguement was moot, Spawnloser. Nyr had already posted, and made it -very- clear that no suggestions on changing the rape-consent policy would be entertained.

Calm down. It ain't gonna happen, and anyone who wants it can happen is just gonna have to keep wanting, cause it ain't.

[FantasyWriter]

Consent: Yes/no/fade?

Yes  =  I agree to my character taking part in this sex/rape/torture scene, and also agree to roleplay out said scene.
No    = I do NOT agree for my character to to take part in this sex/rape/torture scene.
Fade =  I agree to my character taking part in this sex/rape/torture scene, but do not wish to roleplay out said scene.

'Nuff said.

[Majikal]

The only thing I could imagine is that they can't get away with it in real life so they bring it to the game.

I can NOT see any sane, well-balanced person actually wanting to enact a rape scene however, unless it is a re-enactment for educational/informative purposes.

Oh, and yes, I do assume that most of you are horny dumb-asses that aren't getting laid enough.  Remember, there's no wymynz on the intranets.  The average player of these sorts of games is a pasty, teen-ager to 20-something nerd.

I can not imagine how a sane and well-balanced individual would want to play out that scene.  Rape should make you feel dirty, just like if you see it in a movie.  If it doesn't, I worry about you.

Just to be clear.  I'm not saying that characters should not rape characters.  I'm saying that players shouldn't want to play out a rape scene in the mud.  If you do, I really think you need to examine that urge.

Having played females, rapists, serial killers, pedophiles, necrophiles, child killers, racists, cannibals, a religious fanatics within the realm of Zalanthas I oddly enough find myself wanting none of these urges irl. Go figure.

I find alot of these posts insulting to your fellow players,  those blessed with the epic power to separate reality from.. a text based game.