Too direct about sex? (please read before voting)

[Eyeball]

There seems to be a growing trend (at least in the south) to treat every female character as a potential whore. Now, yes, there's no shame in Zalanthas in being a whore, but the whores do tend to advertise themselves. Also, there's a growing trend to openly talk of wanting sex with a female character, to her face, and baldly inviting them into the sack without even preliminaries. Or even talk amongst male characters of raping a female character, sometimes in front of other female characters.

Does this make female players uncomfortable?

[Is Friday]

Since I'm playing one of these male characters that frequently involved himself with pc, npc, and vnpc whores often--I can say that it does make female players uncomfortable, at least from my perspective.

[Synthesis]

I thought apartment mudsex was just a way to rack up your PK count.

[Zoltan]

I've kind of wondered about this myself, as I've played one or two characters who were extremely forward about sex.

[Cutthroat]

First of all, I'm a male player who tends to play male characters.

And even I feel uncomfortable seeing some of the sexual crap that happens IG.

Not everyone is interested in sexual RP. I'd imagine a lot less are into rape RP. I thought even pursuing a rape plot required the victim's consent? What's going on here?

I don't really mind so much when it comes to the characters that seem to be attracted to everything. It's the devious sort that enjoy consorting with someone who would be socially strange to have sex with, and the people who speak of rape that bother me.

[Lizzie]

There seems to be a growing trend (at least in the south) to treat every female character as a potential whore. Now, yes, there's no shame in Zalanthas in being a whore, but the whores do tend to advertise themselves. Also, there's a growing trend to openly talk of wanting sex with a female character, to her face, and baldly inviting them into the sack without even preliminaries. Or even talk amongst male characters of raping a female character, sometimes in front of other female characters.

Does this make female players uncomfortable?

There's a whole bunch of topics you're mentioning here, and they're not all equal.

1) trend to treat every female character as a potential whore:

I, the player, find this highly objectionable, because it is isn't believable roleplay in the world of Zalanthas. Unless your character is a psychopath, he (or she) would -not- treat even most female PCs as a potential whore. He/she would have certain tastes...would find certain females attractive, and NOT find certain other females attractive. Also, in a world where a high-ranking concubine (who is higher ranking than even many merchant house family members) can snap her fingers and you'd be dead, it's not *safe* to treat most female players as potential whores. Furthermore, why whores? Why not - potential sparring partners? Why not, potential personal stylists? Why not, armor-fitters? Why should it be necessary to *specifically go out of your way to* objectify females sexually? What is the impetus for that personality trait? That's what I object to: the idea that any player would feel this is the only possible way their character could behave in the presence of a female.

A character who is continually horny, who has some kind of mental disconnection between his cock and his brain - that's not sexually objectifying a female. That's an interesting character quirk, that could manifest just by being offered a piece of raw meat, or noticing that the shape of a knothole in a log happens to be the exact shape of the head of his penis.

2. The discussion about raping women in public: I find it unneccessary and distasteful, but not personally hurtful. I question anyone who would obsess with it or make it a primary focus of their character, but wouldn't phase me in the least if it came up in conversation on occasion.

3. Wanting sex with a female character: Again, the issue is more, "is this all your character can ever talk about? How 1-dimensional, dull, overdone, and uninteresting of you" rather than "omg he said penis someone get me a xanax." If your character is capable of other things, of talking about other things, if he expresses an interest in other things, and sex is simply one of those many things that makes him who he is, then terrific. If I can predict with remarkable accuracy that I'll overhear your character hitting on a woman anywhere I happen to bump into him, then maybe you should add a little something new to your repertoire.

[Ourla]

Doesn't bother me.  It's just a game, and I'm a big girl.

[MarshallDFX]

This problem could be solved IC, methinks?

[X-D]

Where is the who cares option?

Course, by that I mean, If the female PC is getting too many direct offers and is actually being played by a female (Ha!) There are things they can do about it IC...or, play males...or, don't play. Personaly I think PCs in Zalanthus are far less horny acting then they would realisticly be. Don't get me wrong, that makes me happy. I've seen many the "RP" mud/mush where thats pretty much all that goes on. I really don't see a problem IG....Well, unless you are playing the rare and coveted female dwarf.

Oh, and I wanted to add, on this point.

2. The discussion about raping women in public:

I would think that even talking about rape would be covered under the consent rules and I would not hesitate to file complaint on anybody who was publicly talking about it, specialy in detail if they did not ask for and get consent.

[Xagon]

Where is the who cares option?

Course, by that I mean, If the female PC is getting too many direct offers and is actually being played by a female (Ha!) There are things they can do about it IC...or, play males...or, don't play. Personaly I think PCs in Zalanthus are far less horny acting then they would realisticly be. Don't get me wrong, that makes me happy. I've seen many the "RP" mud/mush where thats pretty much all that goes on. I really don't see a problem IG....Well, unless you are playing the rare and coveted female dwarf.

All hail, the queen of beauty has arrived!

[Fathi]

I've played male and female characters with various sexual habits. Nobody seemed to get overtly uncomfortable when my characters made weird advances toward them.
Hell, once I played a mutant that used to try to hit on normal humans by praising the fact that they had "appealingly average facial features" and "the correct amount of teeth." That approach was designed to make the character feel uncomfortable and got some great reactions, but overall I didn't get any adverse OOC reaction.

On the other hand... I played a female character who objected to contact with other people in most ways. She got hit on constantly, but it didn't bother me as a player. I suspect a lot of people might have thought that sexual advances toward that PC bothered me as a player because of how strongly the character reacted to it. But it didn't! She was just a little quirky.

My opinion on the subject is that discussion of sex and sexual things is very common and Zalanthas is a very rough and tumble place. I think that if a player is bothered by such talk, they're welcome to take their character elsewhere and move in different social circles. I doubt most Arm-playing chicks are too bothered by this, honestly.

Rape is a touchier subject. I don't think consent should necessarily be required to merely discuss the act--"Did you hear what happened to Lord Templar Tor's aide? She got raped!"--but if you're talking about wanting to rape a character while that character is in the room, I can see both the PC and the player getting a little weirded out. Personally, I would ask for consent the second the conversation started down that path, because you never know who's OOCly underage.

[Is Friday]

I recently played a crazy PC who raped other PCs and NPCs, regularly talked about it, threatened people with rape, and in general made people uncomfortable.

I was under the impression that I did a pretty good job with it, though. To my knowledge no player complaints were filed. All the uncomfortable-ness to avoid him was done IC--and I always faded.

[Orados]

I recently played a crazy PC who raped other PCs and NPCs, regularly talked about it, threatened people with rape, and in general made people uncomfortable.

I was under the impression that I did a pretty good job with it, though. To my knowledge no player complaints were filed. All the uncomfortable-ness to avoid him was done IC--and I always faded.

Sounds like that takes some pretty serious emote skills... *tugs on collar*

If I might add my incredibly noobish opionion, I would say that Armageddon has a very great system in place with the consent rule. I would surmise that any scenario including roleplay with extreme violence or sexuality requires consent from participants\witnesses with no exception. As long as everyone involved consents, I can see no problem with getting as graphic and extreme as you like. I would like to think that even if a player consents, they still have the right to object or back out if the situation is getting too intense for them, but by this point their right to file a complaint of abuse of the consent rule should be voided.  

There are many ways to take advantage of someone without raping them. If you are in a position to take advantage of someone and you ask OOCly: "can I rape you?" and they reply "I'd rather you didn't get sexual" then feel free to do anything short of going under their clothes. The consent rule in my opinion, should not be used as an escape: ie. jim is lying on top of jane and brandishing a knife (or vice versa ) jim\jane's player asks OOC: "do you mind if I rape you?" "Yes I do"  " okay then... bye?" " 'later". The player on the bottom should still be in danger, however, it just can't get sexual and that should be fine for both players to accept. The consent rule should be the guide in all sexual encounters to avoid including those who do not want to experience these kind of things as part of their time on Armageddon.

That being said, if I was a Mormon from Utah playing a charater who happened to walk in on two other PC's "doing the devil's dance" I should just go the other way and treat it as if I just walked in on my parents IRL. Unfortunately, what other players want to do on Arm is their perrogative, so long as they're fine with it, and I don't see a way of shielding everyone from it in all cases other than banning it altogether. I think that the consent rule should carry the day in most situations, and preserve the enjoyment of all players. Harassment is a completely different issue altogether, and I'd like to think that all members of the playerbase can make this distinction.

Hope my comments have been helpful. Having never actually been in game at this point, I'm speaking purely from an ethical point of view, but I don't think there's too much IG experience I need to have an opinion on this issue.

Edit: spelling

[Whiran Luck]

As far as the questions posed by the OP:

1) I don't see the problem in this as long as they are also treating every male pc as a potential whore. And by whore, I mean someone who will take money for sex. And it really shoudn't be derogatory for most commonfolk, since it's simply a profession. In a world where killers and thieves for hire are commonplace, and Joe Nobody at the bar could leave the gates and kill you for your boots, getting paid to have sex is pretty tame for the most part and 'whore' is simply another job taken by males and females in Zalanthas. I suppose in a derogatory sense, it could be used in the semblance of 'dirty' whore, implying the male/female being called it has some sort of crotch rot or other 'dirty' disease but the 'whore' part shouldn't be used as an insult. Granted, whether someone takes it as such or as a compliment would depend on who is being called it. This is something that has gone on in the game for a long time, though. I don't see it changing any time soon. I wouldn't call it objectionable, but I also would imagine it being done by people who are not really that familiar with the game world, or not really interested in playing to the norms of the game world.

2) Openly speaking of sex: a non-issue. There is no taboo against sex in most of the common world, except the north, where a commoner and a noble having sex is taboo, and perhaps small tribal cultures. For the great majority of the world, sex is just sex. When most people have grown up in clustered communities, if not extended families where large groups of people are crammed in together, of both sexes, and in employment where there are no separate facilities for bathroom functions, changing and bunking, the mystique of nudity and sex is likely low. The propensity of someone to brag about who they have or have wanted to bag is then relegated to character quirk-- but whether someone does or does not talk about sex, actually talking about sex isn't considered shocking or dirty-- unless you're talking about weird or unusual sexual practices (willing cross-race sex would probably be viewed as unusual, banging a magicker (if you're not) would just be viewed as really freakin' bizarre if not downright dangerous depending on where in the world you are.)

3) Rape-- it is against the rules to roleplay, unless there is consent from both parties to pursue this avenue, whether it is played out or FTB'd. Male characters talking about rape do make me uncomfortable because I am led to believe they do not quite understand some of the core gender/sex tenets of the game. Rape as a form of brutality in the world of Zalanthas, I don't think is that common (admins can confirm or deny), despite the existance of half-elves. In the real world, it is easier for this to occur as a form of violence/power because males tend to be larger and physically stronger than females, physiologically speaking, and thus females can be more easily overpowered. In Zalanthas, this disparaty does not exist. When females are as likely to be able to kick your ass and/or cut off your genitals if you try to rape them, and are conditioned to go down fighting and attempt to inflict as much damage as possible-- and this is outside of whatever social backup they can bring to the table-- the ability to engage in such violence or even find it appealing likely drops drastically-- a male speaking of rape would likely be viewed in the same manner of someone who is highly mentally unstable. Edited to add: And likely, the males or females overhearing such talk would realistically be moved to remove such a threat to themselves.

And yes, this is from a female player's perspective.

[Krishnamurti]

I think the answer is more female pkillers. Here's a fun project... people who normally play PvP roles and enjoy pkilling and permadeath... how about all of us start making female characters and regularly murder male characters who bring their real-life prejudices too frequently into Zalanthas. I think that'd help the situation wonderfully. Amazons and Valkyries of the world: Unite!

[Whiran Luck]

I think the answer is more female pkillers. Here's a fun project... people who normally play PvP roles and enjoy pkilling and permadeath... how about all of us start making female characters and regularly murder male characters who bring their real-life prejudices too frequently into Zalanthas. I think that'd help the situation wonderfully. Amazons and Valkyries of the world: Unite!

I have played positions in clans which have afforded me the luxury of teaching those male pc's who thought that a females were weak and enjoyed being treated in ways more befitting of helpless females. They did not make the same mistake twice (usually ending up dead) and I can only hope the lesson stuck through subsequent characters.

[Is Friday]

Whiran Luck:

I never broke any rules, because I never roleplayed an actual rape with anyone that I did not clear consent with. If you think my character threatening "I'm gonna rape you!" or talking casually about rape is too graphic then you're playing the wrong game, imo.

[Whiran Luck]

Whiran Luck:

I never broke any rules, because I never roleplayed an actual rape with anyone that I did not clear consent with. If you think my character threatening "I'm gonna rape you!" or talking casually about rape is too graphic then you're playing the wrong game, imo.

You're right. With consent from both parties, I believe it's allowed to be roleplayed. I reread some of the files and older threads, and it's involuntary rape scenes (both parties must consent). I'm big enough to stand corrected. However, I did not say I thought it was graphic. I did indicate that a character threatening such an act of violence would be tantamount to someone threatening to harm your character with other violent means and such threats should be handled in ICly appropriate manners. And given the game world, I don't think anyone talking casually about rape as a desirable act, or one with few consequences, would be considered normal.

[jstorrie]

If your PC is going to treat every female character like a prostitute, they should generally also treat every male character as a prostitute. In Allanak and Tuluk, at least, there are as many male whores as female whores.

If your PC is going to be a real horndog all the time, well, that's totally fine.

[Jdr]

I have found that everyone's very fine with fading. Obviously there's people out there who love playing out the act and I'm not one of them. I really enjoy the maturity of players in Armageddon who will happily oblige to a fade.

[Zhaira]

In re: prostitution, in general, as a theme, no, I don't really find myself made uncomfortable by it in the slightest; it seems pretty reasonable to assume that someone (a male or a female) might be willing to exchange something as meaningless and of immensely little inherent worth (i.e., an hour or two of time) for something like a bunch of 'sid or some food and water or whoever knows what else.  It doesn't really cost anything to have sex with someone, so it's like getting something for nothing, if the character is comfortable enough to feel safe going up in private with someone.

Of course, uh, I'm a whore.  So maybe this is a slightly biased response.


Open discussion about rape?  This is a bit iffier.  It's a pretty strong violation of someone's person; I would say, "hey, would it be okay to talk about mugging someone/killing someone with the people I am now, in the company I am now?", and if the answer is "no, not really," then it seems like rape might be a poor conversational topic, too.  On the other hand, I don't view Zalanthan rape as a misogynistic/misandristic crime, unless that's the character's specific psychological makeup -- seems more to me like it'd be just a crime of degradation/assertation of power, and lacking the emphasis of being in a society where the body and sexual contact are somehow bizarrely sacred, it *might not*, in *Zalanthas*, be *as big of* a deal.  I put a lot of emphasis on those words for a reason.

Of course, uh, I guess I've also been raped a few times.  So maybe this is biased, too.


But, y'know, it's a roleplaying game, and sometimes people roleplay some very unfriendly types.  Wouldn't think that text is much to get your panties in a twist about, personally.

[HTX]

I think the answer is more female pkillers. Here's a fun project... people who normally play PvP roles and enjoy pkilling and permadeath... how about all of us start making female characters and regularly murder male characters who bring their real-life prejudices too frequently into Zalanthas. I think that'd help the situation wonderfully. Amazons and Valkyries of the world: Unite!

I'm one of those adrenalin lovers who has a (perhaps at times guilty) love of stabbing another character in the face.

But as for rolling up a female PKing character? Hell no, never again... I once rolled up an experimental female character, and soon got bored of it after she was hit on and treated overly nicely too many times. I even made her be a rugged, take-no-shit-from-nobody type of gal in anticipation of the flirting, but that didn't help things much... In fact, whenever she acted aggro, it made men adore her even more.

Man, in retrospect I should have made her hideous and horribly scarred... instead I made her rather plain (in my mind's eye) but now that I think about it people probably thought of her as very attractive anyway.

[musashi]

Yeah, I think if you want to make a female PC who isn't going to be hit on, she has to be either old and wrinkled, really fat, or terribly deformed.

The "plain" look doesn't seem to get the message across clearly enough.

[Tallulah]

I find my female PCs get hit on no matter what they look like.  Sometimes it feels like people lose interest in them quickly when they find out that I'd rather FTB than roleplay out sex.   

[Majikal]

The "plain" look doesn't seem to get the message across clearly enough.

In a world where missing fingers, deformed limbs, mutations,  horrendous scars and horrid body odor are the norm.. plain is kind of hot, ain't it?

There's only been one incident that I've ever seen that I thought sexual conversation had gone too far and sort of crossed into the realm of an oocish sexual harassment. IMO, It's a mature roleplaying game and if text REALLY has the ability to upset you to that extent, well, that's what the ooc command for. Most of it could be hashed out ic though, the prostitution passes etc.