Too direct about sex? (please read before voting)

[KankWhisperer]

2. The best fiction doesn't, by and large, include graphic sex or torture.  Check any bookshelf.

I think the only problem I have with your -opinions- is that you state them as facts. Honestly I think that's why everyone is getting irritated.

[musashi]

I think folks stating their opinion as fact or the definitive word on a subject is probably the reason behind nearly every thread that derails into a flame war.

Prefacing statements with "I think" or "In my opinion" can go a long way towards curbing that, I've found.

[Marauder Moe]

I often try to preface things with "I think" or "in my opinion", but truly we're all equals here and on a subjective topic like this that should be implied, no?  Let's remember that what anyone here says (with the exception of immortals) should be considered opinion, so let's not take it personally or as an affront to anyone's reality.  Same with disagreements with anyone's non-prefaced statements.


Anyway... back on topic, not being female, I haven't voted.

My general ramblings on the subject, though:

Armageddon's NO SEXISM rule is sometimes invoked even when the behavior is not inherently sexist.  I don't think it's inherently sexist for a male character to blatantly inquire if a female character is a prostitute while not doing the same for males.  Unless said character homo/bisexual, why would he care enough to ask if a male character is a whore?  It's not sexist, it's just a byproduct of his gender and sexual orientation.

I think that theory can apply to more subtle situations too.  A male sergeant who treats women in his unit better (or worse... people can be weird like that) may do so not because he's sexist, but because he views said women as potential mates, and that really can change how you interact with someone.

However, there most certainly is a line that can be crossed.  The "cooking is women's work" example is definitely poor roleplay, as are most sayings like "real men X" or "got the balls to Y".

[Whiran Luck]

Armageddon's NO SEXISM rule is sometimes invoked even when the behavior is not inherently sexist.  I don't think it's inherently sexist for a male character to blatantly inquire if a female character is a prostitute while not doing the same for males.  Unless said character homo/bisexual, why would he care enough to ask if a male character is a whore?  It's not sexist, it's just a byproduct of his gender and sexual orientation.

I just wanted to comment on that to say that I think the intent of the OP wasn't to say that in itself was inherently sexist but when said character reacts that way to most or all women or repeated characters do, while treating themselves or men to another standard. I could just be putting my own spin on it of course. I don't really have a problem with a character (male or female) that believes anyone can be bought, but when many male characters only/routinely treat female characters as pieces of meat to buy to the point where it's vaguely unreasonable, I can see how that would be off-putting, or smacks of rl sexism pulled into the game. There's a big difference, to me, between treating everyone as chattel (even if you don't proposition them), and only treating most/all female characters (and female characters only) as potential virtual semen-hoisery.

In either case, I don't really care as a player, because I probably don't know enough about the character to know whether it's in character for them (I'm not the roleplay police) and if it's a player thing, I have no idea either. I do know that if it makes my character uncomfortable ICly, they will respond in that manner ICly, whether it involves getting up and leaving, doing something to cut down whomever has offended them verbally, or just stabbing them in the face, depending on what sort of character I'm playing.

As far as consent, you should always ask it for graphic sex/torture. Even if it's vanilla stuff it's a good idea to ask, or even FTB or whatever. It's just a conscientious thing to do for your fellow roleplayers. Edited to add/derail: I'm actually more offended when I hear of people not asking for consent than the original topics.

[Olgaris]

I object to the obsession with sex as some kind of normal thing that people should expect to see among the general populace. The existence of sex doesn't bother me at all. The fact that Zalanthans include sex among their interests doesn't bother me at all. The trend for people to -focus- on sexual activity is what I feel Eyeball is talking about, and what I agree is something that needs to be addressed. That it -seems- to be a trend, this focus on sex, the focus on objectifying females...the focus on females behaving as sexual objects rather than multi-dimensional people whose interests -include- sex, rather than -exclude- anything other than sex.

I gotta agree with Lizzie. Even things like "dame, broad, and bitch" seem a bit weird for Zalanthas.

I call women - women and I do my absolute best to treat every female the exact same I would treat any male. Hell, I haven't even had a sexually active character in years. I don't play Arm for that.

Probably the most offsetting situation was a few months back when I was telling an underling (kinda think it was an animated NPC) to do some cooking work. He said no, that's women's work.  I played it off as them having something wrong with their head. Suffice to say, that character died pretty quickly after.

Bottom line? Watch what you say/do because as we all know on the internet, just one word can have a significantly different meaning than your intention.

It was a PC. I didn't like it either.

[tortall]

Gotta side with Charas here. Not touching this one. I already know people will jump down my throat for my thoughts.

I did want to say that....

There's probably a lot of good erotic fiction out there.  You just don't see it on display at Barnes & Noble because, well, that sort of thing causes a lot of darn consternation.  The idea that sex isn't a good topic for FANTASY is quite laughable, really.

That made me giggle. Also, I find I am agreeing with Lizzie. That made me giggle as well. Fathi also made me giggle. My thanks to you three.

[flurry]

My only concern is, as previously mentioned, the "objectification" of women. Simply because I believe gender equality adds a lot to the game.

My feelings exactly. Sexual content doesn't bother me, but when it crosses into sexism it does. Granted, it doesn't affect my play, and I don't see it often. But I have seen some really egregious examples of it too, that seemed way out of place in Zalanthas.

Armageddon's NO SEXISM rule is sometimes invoked even when the behavior is not inherently sexist.  I don't think it's inherently sexist for a male character to blatantly inquire if a female character is a prostitute while not doing the same for males.  Unless said character homo/bisexual, why would he care enough to ask if a male character is a whore?  It's not sexist, it's just a byproduct of his gender and sexual orientation.

I think this is a good point. The cumulative effect of this bothers me some, though, if you have several male characters who have the same (irrational) habit of going around asking female characters if they're prostitutes, but little or none of the same in reverse.

[flurry]

Me. It actually started to bother me personally a few months ago to see the handful of female characters in the Byn more or less continually being the recepients of sexually suggestive comments, invitations, remarks about behaviour and so on. It was totally one-sided; the female characters weren't giving it back to the male characters.

I've got to say this one example jumped out at me in reading the thread. I have no first hand experience playing in the Byn, but I have had some great interactions with that clan. I hope what you're describing is not typical. Especially because it's the one clan that new players are most often steered toward.

[Marauder Moe]

Armageddon's NO SEXISM rule is sometimes invoked even when the behavior is not inherently sexist.  I don't think it's inherently sexist for a male character to blatantly inquire if a female character is a prostitute while not doing the same for males.  Unless said character homo/bisexual, why would he care enough to ask if a male character is a whore?  It's not sexist, it's just a byproduct of his gender and sexual orientation.

I think this is a good point. The cumulative effect of this bothers me some, though, if you have several male characters who have the same (irrational) habit of going around asking female characters if they're prostitutes, but little or none of the same in reverse.

But the players doing so aren't at fault for the ones not doing so, are they?

[flurry]

Armageddon's NO SEXISM rule is sometimes invoked even when the behavior is not inherently sexist.  I don't think it's inherently sexist for a male character to blatantly inquire if a female character is a prostitute while not doing the same for males.  Unless said character homo/bisexual, why would he care enough to ask if a male character is a whore?  It's not sexist, it's just a byproduct of his gender and sexual orientation.

I think this is a good point. The cumulative effect of this bothers me some, though, if you have several male characters who have the same (irrational) habit of going around asking female characters if they're prostitutes, but little or none of the same in reverse.

But the players doing so aren't at fault for the ones not doing so, are they?

No, I'm not sure anyone is to blame. I just don't think the end result is good.

I guess it depends what form it all takes. If it's an isolated question that's one thing, but if it's someone going around expecting half the women they meet to be prostitutes, that just doesn't even make sense.

[AmandaGreathouse]

After a bit of thought, I don't really think I've even encountered this exactly, and I've had the pleasure of playing with several extremely forward male pcs in Allanak, recently. I've seen a fair bit of offering them things for sex, or asking if they knew any whores or other similar things, but I don't think I've yet had it 'assumed' that my PC was a prostitute. Since there has been so much harping on semantics, I thought it kinda appropriate to put that out there. In fact, the only time I've ever even had a PC called a whore was after they'd accepted coins from a PC in exchange for a sexual act, thus, literally, making them a whore. Meh. Be the change you want to see.

[drasik]

Sexual roleplay can enhance a character and/or other characters play. Ever wonder how those little kids run around? I don't think it was by spontaneous fission.

[Jia]

In a world with no sexism, and no taboo about sex, I would think the game is running just fine. 

But, I may have missed some of this poor roleplay being referenced.  Like the cooking thing ...  I mean--  how dumb is that?   

But as the title goes, I don't think you can be too direct about sex, so long as you're talking and not harassing another character.  Or if you are, at least be friends with them, right? 

Rape requires consent, bottom line.

But hey, I'm not a girl, so-- !  I'll stfu.

[FantasyWriter]

In a world with no sexism, and no taboo about sex, I would think the game is running just fine. 

[domwriter]

I've only ever played two female characters way in the past (one being horribly scarred and disfigured to the point where it was clear the ugly stick wouldn't even touch her) and both of them were constantly asked for sexual favors in exchange for coin or even flirted with on a daily basis. I merely, as a player, regarded that as a sense of lack of female characters in the game as well as the fact that sex is going to be in anything or everything you play.

I'm like a few others how I really don't want to get put up in here. However, from my personal view I've got to agree with Jia who said:

In a world with no sexism, and no taboo about sex, I would think the game is running just fine.

As for the topic of rape... I think if someone is openly discussing it IC then going as far as asking everyone in the room for constent isn't needed. But when it comes to the act of it, consent should be asked pre-storyline before one even leads up to it, that way when the player is told no OOC you don't have that air of wondering where to go from not to mention it's following the rules setup by the staff.

[musashi]

As for the topic of rape... I think if someone is openly discussing it IC then going as far as asking everyone in the room for constent isn't needed. But when it comes to the act of it, consent should be asked pre-storyline before one even leads up to it, that way when the player is told no OOC you don't have that air of wondering where to go from not to mention it's following the rules setup by the staff.

This is exactly what I believe the consent help file spells out.

[AreteX]

I think we should all just keep playing how we are, and avoid as much censorship as possible.

I didn't come to ARM to immerse myself in the same world I get censored while watching TV in the states.

Please, let everyone talk about sex, and violence, and whatever else pops in their mind.

[spawnloser]

To be very clear on what the rules spell out...

-> Consent is needed to play out graphic scenes, be they sexual or violent in nature... or violently sexual in nature.   Without consent, you fade to black.

-> Rape is a special case, you MUST get consent to even begin a rape activity.  You must also get consent to play it out.  Without the first consent, your character can NOT rape the character you'd intended.  If the first consent is given, but the second is not, the rape may occur but you must fade to black.  Only if you have consent on both counts can you actually go through the act on screen with emotes and all the rest.

-> You do NOT need consent for your character to talk about something, only to do something.

I'm sorry, but my personal opinion is that if someone wants consent on both counts, I don't want to play with them.  The only thing I could imagine is that they can't get away with it in real life so they bring it to the game.  No thanks.  I can see and understand someone not fading on normal sex.  I can understand someone playing a violent and depraved character that would rape someone.  I can NOT see any sane, well-balanced person actually wanting to enact a rape scene however, unless it is a re-enactment for educational/informative purposes.

To summarize, I'm fine with the rules they way they are.  I am not uncomfortable with them.  I don't think anyone should be.  You can shield yourself from things you find distasteful.  Don't act out rape, though.

[Rairen]

Quick answer is no, that it doesn't bother me, though with the caveat that I've seen sex-related situations get to the point of preposterousness, which I find jarring because it breaks my immersion (ie, it's obviously a bunch of guys fighting with a particular part of their anatomy and describing it as crazily as they can).  Again, though, that's not so much offense as irritation.

I've had some pretty lousy come ons in the past, though, and find that it's easiest to manage this by creating characters who are, for whatever reason, very selective in how they deal with sexual situations.  I suppose it could come off looking like discomfort, but it's probably not.  Beyond that, you're dealing with a group of women who regularly plot the murder, ruin, and destruction of other characters (as well as occasionally our own).  My guess is that it'd take quite a lot to phase us.

[tortall]

Sorry, gotta throw this in there, as it's bothering me a bit.

[quote =Help Consent]Specifically in the case of roleplaying through a rape or sexual torture, the instigator takes on added responsibility. In this case, the instigator absolutely must OOC'ly ask for and must obtain explicit consent from the victim's player prior to involving their character in any emote specifically indicative of the act of rape, no matter how non-graphic you believe it to be. If you wish to pursue a rape plotline or engage in an act of rape, you must seek consent from your target. Without that consent, the plotline may NOT be pursued.[/quote]


It's the bolded part that I'm apparently confused with. That means, as spawnloser said, that you must get consent not only for RPing it, but also for FTB? That makes no sense to me. I'm sorry to be a bit blunt here, but you don't always have a choice if you get raped irl. Why are you getting the choice here, on a game that's stated it's harsh? Granted, it would be awesome if we were given that choice irl, but.... We're not. My thoughts? If you want your char to have a chance to get out of the rape, flip a coin. Roll some dice. Figure out how far ti goes. IMO, rape almost NEVER happens IG, so this will almost never be an issue. If it does come up, I don't think it's "realistic" for your character to get out of it just because you as the player don't want it to happen.

And I've seen a BUNCH of stuff changed over realism.


But then, I'm also really comfortable with pretty much anything, and I know a lot of people arn't.

[Cutthroat]

It's the bolded part that I'm apparently confused with. That means, as spawnloser said, that you must get consent not only for RPing it, but also for FTB? That makes no sense to me. I'm sorry to be a bit blunt here, but you don't always have a choice if you get raped irl. Why are you getting the choice here, on a game that's stated it's harsh? Granted, it would be awesome if we were given that choice irl, but.... We're not. My thoughts? If you want your char to have a chance to get out of the rape, flip a coin. Roll some dice. Figure out how far ti goes. IMO, rape almost NEVER happens IG, so this will almost never be an issue. If it does come up, I don't think it's "realistic" for your character to get out of it just because you as the player don't want it to happen.

I think the point is to not force players into playing a rape victim, which could be rather depressing. Especially if you are a rape victim.

[tortall]

Thus the reason I suggested a roll in the RARE case this happens, rather than just ignoring it completely.

[musashi]

I see your point tortall ... but I think rape is just one of those subjects that's so sensative staff decided to treat it with extra kid gloves.

I would say ... give rape development the same conditions torture development has personally. That being, the person having it done to their character has the right to say not only: FTB please I don't want to RP this.

But also: I don't want to play this character after this this event, so please assume that the event kills them.

Done. Roll up a new one.

I'm honestly 110% ok with the current policy though, and don't think it needs changing. Just saying ... if I were going to change it, that would be what I'd change it to.

[Cutthroat]

I'd be pretty concerned about leaving a player's comfort to chance, even if a roll will almost never be necessary. Then almost no one would be uncomfortable.

Really, this is a game and it's important players are comfortable with whatever they do here.

[spawnloser]

Rape is a VERY sensitive subject.  You should not have to be forced to play a rape victim.  You should not have to give up a character because you don't want to play a rape victim.  Rape is one of the most heinous things you can do to another person, worse than torture or death, if you ask me.  It leaves scars non-rape victims could not even begin to understand.  Leave it as it is.  If someone asks 'ooc consent for rape' and the reply is 'ooc no consent' then the plotline/scene/rape does NOT happen, period.

Yes, tortall, this is how it is.  I will not support ANY change to this rule in any way.  If the rule changes, I will deliberately go out of my way to cause people to regret that the rule changed I feel so strongly about it.  That is all.