Too direct about sex? (please read before voting)

[DustMight]

This wonderful game, Armageddon, is not enhanced by this kind of roleplay.  Just as most fiction novels are not enhanced by graphic depictions of sex of any time.  The best romances, the best fantasy make suggestions of it and never approach it directly.  We might be well served to take the work of writers better than ourselves into consideration.

I disagree completely. You just obviously have not been in the presence of a character that roleplays these things well.

I have, actually.  And my statement still stands as truth - if you disbelieve you haven't read much, written much or talked to many professional writers or teachers of fiction. 

[IAmJacksOpinion]

This is tasteless, but I don't care!

made me want to order a spinach/garlic/pepperoni calzone and get jiggy in the basement with my cat.

Hey sweet thing, why don't you save yourself the $3.99 and an ounce of cat-nip and fire me a PM.

[Fnord]

Female PCs always treat my male characters as whores and it hurts my feelings.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Female PCs always treat my male characters as whores and it hurts my feelings.

I'm not treating them like whores... I just like to FTB the pillowtalk/snuggling!

[Jingo]

It depends on where you want to draw the line. I think mild sexual advances such as groping etc, are fair game. However being exceptionally explicit about a sexual assualt might not be. In both cases, asking for consent is not going to hurt you. I personally think it would be poor form not to in the latter, but I doubt there would be too much trouble if you did it.

But as far as consent goes... DO NOT begin a scene without being very specific about what you are asking consent for.

If I give consent, expecting some kind of vague torture scene but the instigator then turns that into graphic sexual torture; I'm gonna be pissed right off.  Even if unintentional, pulling off this kind of switcheroo will get you a player complaint from me.

[aruna]

- I did not read the whole thread, but I did read the original post.
- I voted no.
- I recently had a PC offer my character, who was looking for work, money for sex. It didn't seem to be in a joking manner, nor was the PC being overtly sexual about it. They were rather businesslike. I thought it was awesome, even if my character didn't think so. Kudos to whoever player that was. Respectful offers and encounters like this don't bother me.
- I start to become uncomfortable when PCs become presumptuous and grabby. I also don't think it fits well within the world, especially in public.  This is Zalanthas - if your PC starts groping mine without asking I'm gonna either slit your throat or get someone else to do it for me. Direct talk, however doesn't bother me... usually you can just tell them to fuck off and they'll get the hint and go leer at someone else.

[Is Friday]

This wonderful game, Armageddon, is not enhanced by this kind of roleplay.  Just as most fiction novels are not enhanced by graphic depictions of sex of any time.  The best romances, the best fantasy make suggestions of it and never approach it directly.  We might be well served to take the work of writers better than ourselves into consideration.

I disagree completely. You just obviously have not been in the presence of a character that roleplays these things well.

I have, actually.  And my statement still stands as truth - if you disbelieve you haven't read much, written much or talked to many professional writers or teachers of fiction.  

I don't think I can take someone seriously when they try to state their opinion as undeniable fact, first off. Secondly, you don't know what I've written, have read, or studied.

Thirdly, I'm pretty sure a lot of people have encountered one or many of my raunchy characters--and think they're awesome.

edit: If you don't want your sensibilities pressed, don't go and watch a Tarantino film. This game is the Tarantino film of MUDs--don't try and ruin its honesty with your watered down view of "how things should be".

[DustMight]

This wonderful game, Armageddon, is not enhanced by this kind of roleplay.  Just as most fiction novels are not enhanced by graphic depictions of sex of any time.  The best romances, the best fantasy make suggestions of it and never approach it directly.  We might be well served to take the work of writers better than ourselves into consideration.

I disagree completely. You just obviously have not been in the presence of a character that roleplays these things well.

I have, actually.  And my statement still stands as truth - if you disbelieve you haven't read much, written much or talked to many professional writers or teachers of fiction.  

I don't think I can take someone seriously when they try to state their opinion as undeniable fact, first off. Secondly, you don't know what I've written, have read, or studied.

Thirdly, I'm pretty sure a lot of people have encountered one or many of my raunchy characters--and think they're awesome.

edit: If you don't want your sensibilities pressed, don't go and watch a Tarantino film. This game is the Tarantino film of MUDs--don't try and ruin its honesty with your watered down view of "how things should be".

Dude, you obviously missed my point entirely.  Let me try again.

1. The people you will offend will often not report this.  This is the case in RL.
2. The best fiction doesn't, by and large, include graphic sex or torture.  Check any bookshelf.

You thus run the risk of hurting real-life people without doing anything productive for the game.  But, then, if you are just concerned for your own good time, I guess other people aren't a big issue for you.

[Is Friday]

I guess somewhere in my posts I said that I didn't follow consent rules!

[Lord of Charas]

Oh look, potential flame-war brewing. Very cool . . .

Calm peoples, go lurk a few hours, take a few deep breaths.

As for me, I'm just gonna sit back. Watch the battlez ensuez . . .

This is a very complex, very sensitive matter here; I'm not touchin' it.

[HTX]

Not to add fuel to the fire but this is just my two 'sids. If you don't want to, then don't read it.

First, I don't think of the whole matter of MUD sex necessarily "distasteful". Maybe because I'm more laid back about the whole thing IRL, maybe because I don't view it as something which should be taboo, maybe because I don't think people should be persecuted for enjoying a certain part of MUDing, I don't know. Personally, I don't care for MUD sex myself though I couldn't give a stuff if people want it... I agree that Zalanthians generally should be quite open and okay with the whole matter, too, and so don't think OOC bias should taint that.

My only concern is, as previously mentioned, the "objectification" of women. Simply because I believe gender equality adds a lot to the game.

As for rape, and discussing it ICly? Again, fortunately I've never been raped IRL and am okay with it in game. What I've noticed in this thread, though, is people are so focused on what the "rules" say, and what appears to be a grey area in the rules... which confuses me. Screw the grey area, I'm more concerned about courtesy to my fellow players. While the subject of rape doesn't bother me more than the average person, personally (ie. I won't go batshit crazy on your arse if you do decide to discuss rape in-game), I'm going to err on the side of caution in-game in certain situations. Why? Because I know how sensitive a subject it is. Yeah, at times that might be bordering on OOCishness when my character goes out of the way to do something he might realistically do, but you know what? This is a game, a game is meant to be fun and distressing fellow players is not fun. And anyway, how is a character suddenly getting up and leaving the scene whenever rape is discussed (which, by the way, isn't always realistically possible) any less OOC than me avoiding discussing rape ICly? Sometimes, you got to acknowledge that this is a game, and sacrifice a bit of realism and immersion for the sake of the game.

I'm more okay with torture in-game than I am with rape. Hypocritical? Maybe. But it's not because I particularly think either is less or more horrific than the other. It's just because torture is obviously less sensitive a topic.

And as for the argument of "grittiness"? If my character brutally tortures someone instead of brutally raping them, I don't see how it's any less gritty.

[Synthesis]

There's probably a lot of good erotic fiction out there.  You just don't see it on display at Barnes & Noble because, well, that sort of thing causes a lot of darn consternation.  The idea that sex isn't a good topic for FANTASY is quite laughable, really.

[HTX]

On a side note...

There's probably a lot of good erotic fiction out there.  You just don't see it on display at Barnes & Noble because, well, that sort of thing causes a lot of darn consternation.

I agree. To me, the idea that a graphic sex scene discriminates between good literature and a crap literature is ridiculous. I can't help but wonder if this mentality is based on the RL taboo surrounding sex...

[musashi]

I think the fact is the issue is obviously a very sensative one for DustMight so ... lets let it go? Avoid the flames?

[Northlander]

I'm happy that this subject has been brought up but the poll's question is sexist.

[Krishnamurti]

I'm happy that this subject has been brought up but the poll's question is sexist.

QFT.

And some have mentioned that this is a GAME. Games are fun. Rape is not fun. At all.

[Fathi]

Just as most fiction novels are not enhanced by graphic depictions of sex of any time.  The best romances, the best fantasy make suggestions of it and never approach it directly.  We might be well served to take the work of writers better than ourselves into consideration.

This is a bit of a tangent, but I'd just like to point out that there's plenty of classical literature featuring erotic scenes and you're being silly to pretend there isn't. Joyce's Ulysses comes to mind, as does Chaucer's Canterbury Tales. Gabriel Garcia Marquez wrote a scene about masturbating with asparagus. Gravity's Rainbow has an orgy. Everyone from Shakespeare to Plato to Dante has depicted sex in their writing, and they may not always go straight for pork-sword-penetrating-ham-wallet graphic detail, but the sex is certainly there.

/derail

[Krishnamurti]

This is a bit of a tangent, but I'd just like to point out that there's plenty of classical literature featuring erotic scenes and you're being silly to pretend there isn't. Joyce's Ulysses comes to mind, as does Chaucer's Canterbury Tales. Gabriel Garcia Marquez wrote a scene about masturbating with asparagus. Gravity's Rainbow has an orgy. Everyone from Shakespeare to Plato to Dante has depicted sex in their writing, and they may not always go straight for pork-sword-penetrating-ham-wallet graphic detail, but the sex is certainly there.

/derail

But you're entering a different 'agreement' with an author of a book or the cast of a play. As a reader or an audience, you are _spectators_ and you have no stake in the story, no role, no creative power, aside from the passive ways in which we consume such entertainments.

In a multiplayer game, it is more involved, there is more stake for the players involved, in many cases more attachment to the characters being played. And behind each character is a different person with a different life story, culture, morals, values, etc.

It's not so much about 'depicting sex' because we aren't depicting sex, in this case. We are, in fact, -engaged- in it.

[Synthesis]

This is a bit of a tangent, but I'd just like to point out that there's plenty of classical literature featuring erotic scenes and you're being silly to pretend there isn't. Joyce's Ulysses comes to mind, as does Chaucer's Canterbury Tales. Gabriel Garcia Marquez wrote a scene about masturbating with asparagus. Gravity's Rainbow has an orgy. Everyone from Shakespeare to Plato to Dante has depicted sex in their writing, and they may not always go straight for pork-sword-penetrating-ham-wallet graphic detail, but the sex is certainly there.

/derail

But you're entering a different 'agreement' with an author of a book or the cast of a play. As a reader or an audience, you are _spectators_ and you have no stake in the story, no role, no creative power, aside from the passive ways in which we consume such entertainments.

In a multiplayer game, it is more involved, there is more stake for the players involved, in many cases more attachment to the characters being played. And behind each character is a different person with a different life story, culture, morals, values, etc.

It's not so much about 'depicting sex' because we aren't depicting sex, in this case. We are, in fact, -engaged- in it.

How about paying attention to the discussion before you jump into it with your wild-ass non sequitur?

The only thing we were discussing in that tangent was the assertion that graphic sex makes for poor storytelling.

[Krishnamurti]

You're not telling a story. We are. I've been paying attention to this thread from the get go, so if you wanna flame me: STFU thnx k bi


edit: I looked over the 'tangent' again, and I still think it's irrelevant. Armageddon is NOT classic literature, far from it, and this thread as far as I can tell is more about unwanted advances. So how the hell do you think you can get away with saying my comments are wild-ass non sequitur? Hypocrite.

[evil_erdlu]

I'll be too direct and blunt..

Like any other geek activity, ARM must have some portion of his playerbase as sex-starved teens. So seeing characters around all interested only in sexual activities seems... not unlikely. Acceptable? Maybe... sometimes...

If it bothers you really, just report. Even if the other player's play doesn't require any form of punishment I'm sure the staff may have a kind chatter ranging from "Dude.. The owner of the character "the buxom, sex-starved-looking f-me" isn't interested in any IC sexual acts. Even though you're not breaking any rules, maybe you can reconsider forcing that kind of play into her?" to "Dude.. stop trying to f**k anything that moves. ROFL.."

My two condoms.

[musashi]

You're not telling a story. We are. I've been paying attention to this thread from the get go, so if you wanna flame me: STFU thnx k bi


edit: I looked over the 'tangent' again, and I still think it's irrelevant. Armageddon is NOT classic literature, far from it, and this thread as far as I can tell is more about unwanted advances. So how the hell do you think you can get away with saying my comments are wild-ass non sequitur? Hypocrite.

Fathi was just responding to a comment made by DustMight which said in effect that depictions of sex didn't show up in good creative writing in a graphic fashion, but were rather implied. Hence ... they shouldn't show up in Arm, but should rather be implied here as well (at least this is how I took his comment, I'm guessing some others took it like that also).

She said in her post that her reply to that was a derail, hence ... not really relevant to the thread's discussion at large. She was just offering DustMight some examples of classic lit that did include graphic depictions of sex.

I think everyone agrees that Arm is not classic literature, it's a game. And we all agree that as a game we're playing together we have an obligation to try not to offend one another too terribly much.

This is why the game has consent rules regarding things that might be offensive like torture and sex.

By looking at the poll results, it would seem that the majority of people are not offended by sex or sexual propositions being brought up IG. Followed by the next group who are "somewhat" put off by it (though the subsequent posts seem to suggest that they're mostly put off by it when it seems to be all a character, and hence, a player ... is interested in). Only 4 people as of this post stated that they were offended by it. 4 out of the 38 who voted.

I take that to mean that the majority of folks are in fact, not offended by talk of sex or sexual advances.

The "is rape ok" discussion is a bit of a derail of its own, and one that I think would have been better left alone, but if it's that big of a deal to some people, I'd recommend asking the staff for more clarify on their consent policy as it pertains to rape.

Now lets please try not to degenerate into flames and trolling.

By the way I like your avatar.

[Kevo]

I just kind of skimmed through this thread, briefly looking over it. Found some stuff I wanted to argue with/agree with, but I'm gonna let that go save one comment, later in my post.

The only actual question that was asked regarding this poll was Does this make female players uncomfortable?

I honestly have no freakin' clue, I'm a guy. I'm kind of upset -I- wasn't asked, though, I'll let it go. Considering my current PC may very well be one of these people, I feel like I should respond to all of this.

Not all female chars, are played by females, and vice-versa, so the gender of the player shouldn't be taken into account, and, realistically, since for some reason arm seems to be a lot less sexist than the GDB, and especially real-life, the gender of the Char shouldn't be taken into account either.

Secondly, the RULE is you have to get -specific- consent when roleplaying or pursuing (starting/considering) rape scenes, and/or graphic violence. I've seen one of those ignored, ever, in all my time on arm, but I wasn't offended, and the scene was done very well.

Thirdly, merely talking about rape really shouldn't require any OOC consent, though the person who ignores some person using OOC to express offense should be kicked in the shins repeatedly. I encourage everyone to freely use the OOC command to speak up and say, hey, please, tone it down a bit.

Fourthly? Anyhow, I've played whores of both sexes, and yes, I said whores. I've also played serial killers, rapists, and who knows how many psychopaths, children with mental handicaps, blind people, and any number of other afflictions. In all my time playing, I've never once recieved a player complaint because it's rather simple not to. Step one, OOC Consent to (insert act here) Step two, respect the other players decision, nuff said. Anyone who can't do that is a jackass, and should be banned, anyone who takes offense, but doesn't speak up, I'm kind of peeved at, because then you run the risk of the person who -Deserves- to get banned not actually getting banned, and another person is gonna have to be offended before the crap stops.

Number five, please read http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?consent. Sometimes it's amazing what you can forget in however many years you've been playing.


And lastly

1. The people you will offend will often not report this.  This is the case in RL.
2. The best fiction doesn't, by and large, include graphic sex or torture.  Check any bookshelf.

I disagree with this. I, and many I know, WILL REPORT something they are offended by IG.
And btw, the Marquis De Sade is among the greatest writers -I've- come across, check your bookshelves twice, please. I got his greatest work from Barnes and Nobles, $29.95.

[DustMight]

I just kind of skimmed through this thread, briefly looking over it. Found some stuff I wanted to argue with/agree with, but I'm gonna let that go save one comment, later in my post.

The only actual question that was asked regarding this poll was Does this make female players uncomfortable?

I honestly have no freakin' clue, I'm a guy. I'm kind of upset -I- wasn't asked, though, I'll let it go. Considering my current PC may very well be one of these people, I feel like I should respond to all of this.

Not all female chars, are played by females, and vice-versa, so the gender of the player shouldn't be taken into account, and, realistically, since for some reason arm seems to be a lot less sexist than the GDB, and especially real-life, the gender of the Char shouldn't be taken into account either.

Secondly, the RULE is you have to get -specific- consent when roleplaying or pursuing (starting/considering) rape scenes, and/or graphic violence. I've seen one of those ignored, ever, in all my time on arm, but I wasn't offended, and the scene was done very well.

Thirdly, merely talking about rape really shouldn't require any OOC consent, though the person who ignores some person using OOC to express offense should be kicked in the shins repeatedly. I encourage everyone to freely use the OOC command to speak up and say, hey, please, tone it down a bit.

Fourthly? Anyhow, I've played whores of both sexes, and yes, I said whores. I've also played serial killers, rapists, and who knows how many psychopaths, children with mental handicaps, blind people, and any number of other afflictions. In all my time playing, I've never once recieved a player complaint because it's rather simple not to. Step one, OOC Consent to (insert act here) Step two, respect the other players decision, nuff said. Anyone who can't do that is a jackass, and should be banned, anyone who takes offense, but doesn't speak up, I'm kind of peeved at, because then you run the risk of the person who -Deserves- to get banned not actually getting banned, and another person is gonna have to be offended before the crap stops.

Number five, please read http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?consent. Sometimes it's amazing what you can forget in however many years you've been playing.


And lastly

1. The people you will offend will often not report this.  This is the case in RL.
2. The best fiction doesn't, by and large, include graphic sex or torture.  Check any bookshelf.

I disagree with this. I, and many I know, WILL REPORT something they are offended by IG.
And btw, the Marquis De Sade is among the greatest writers -I've- come across, check your bookshelves twice, please. I got his greatest work from Barnes and Nobles, $29.95.

I hate to continue the derail, but I keep getting misunderstood and this will be the last post I make on the subject so the thread can get on with its bad self.

1. I never said there are NO references to rape or sex in good literature.  I said "by and large." I'm sure we can all think of a few examples but BY AND LARGE most does not contain GRAPHIC.  Offering a deviation from the norm does not change the fact of my statement.  By best I didn't even me classic.  I meant - the stuff that is selling well and people are enjoying.  I have read De Sade and such - but then it is not the sex etc that made his work great - but his commentary on morality and deity.    By and large, GRAPHIC sex and torture do not make for good fiction.  Those examples everyone is citing are great not BECAUSE of the sex/torture but of the quality of the REST of the writing or, I'll grant, the writing as a whole.

2. IRL rape and offense are rarely reported - why do you think RL people will speak up when offended.  The fact is that outside of the mud that often don't. I submit their behaviors will not change very much on the mud.  Why do you think they would?  I cited a RL case in which abuse/sexual offense was not reported by those offended.  I know three our four women who did not report their rapes in RL and I suspect if they didn't report it women (and men) like that aren't going to speak up when they are offended by some titillated 15 year old RPing explicit sex with his prick in his hand.

3. I think it's telling that Immortals will often leave mud-sexing folks alone - not bothering to visit private rooms.  At least this was the case back when I knew about such things.  If it was such great roleplay - why would they do this?

PS:
Yes - I've instigated torture RP as a templar, I've had a PG sexual affair with another player (or two or three) that developed the character and playing male and female characters have been blunt about such things.  We're talking explicit here and I personally am talking about rape RP (RP including conversation as conversation is a large part of roleplay).

End of post/derail.  I'll happily read comments on my post.

[Lizzie]

On the whole fiction thing..it's such a horrible example DustMight, you need to either drop that, or replace it. What you think is "good" fiction isn't necessarily what others think is "good" fiction. People who LOVE romance stories will attest to you that you are absolutely unequivocally wrong. Sex DOES make for good fiction...and in fact is a necessary part of it. If it lacks sex, then it is BAD fiction. That's for people who read romance novels. Those can be purchased in any bookstore -and- in most supermarkets.

Erotica -is- available at Barnes and Noble. Vampire books with graphic sex-based torture scenes are available in the Sci-Fi section of Barnes and Noble, and A.N. Roquelare's (One of Anne Rice's pen names) Beauty and the Beast series, which is a 3-part novel of torture, sexual torture, and graphic hetero, homo, and multi-sexual scenes and slavery, is available..at Barnes and Noble. It is considered by Erotica readers as a "primer" to the genre of S&M. Jacqueline Carey is one of the most popular "pop-fantasy" writers of the decade, and her Kushiel series can be found in Barnes and Noble, a few shelves down from Doug Adams and a section to the left of Robert E. Heinlein.

This is far more of a "by and large" than you either want to admit, or are spinning. There are entire sections dedicated to literary erotica in Border's. My public library has a copy of the Beast series.

Sex is natural, and scenes involving sex, and talk of sex, should certainly be expected and acceptable in games like Armageddon, which is geared toward adults. It's merely the frequency and focus that some of us object to.