Re: Reminder about what your character knows and feels

[Vanth]

I'm sorta worried about the staff saying what I translate into "believe that your character believes this even though there is no rational reason for your character to believe it".

There's all sorts of rational reasons for your character to believe this.  Your character isn't a modern person with a lot of education, ideals, and open-mindedness.  Your character should be ignorant, fearful, and superstitious.

We also ask you to believe that humans think elves are terrible, and vice versa.  And that both of them consider half-elves to be even worse.

We also ask you to believe that men and women are equal.

We ask you to believe these things because they are the truths of Zalanthas.

[Me]

I just want to say that upon knowing the first time that Armageddon 1 is ending really soon (last announcement was in June? July? I can't really remember) and also with my heaps of IRL commitment, I had ceased playing the game for a sustantial amount of time.

When I return to the game again, I learned that Armageddon is ending..this time in a couple of months or something (not too sure..never really properly read announcements) I've decided to just play a non important, non ambitious mundane character just so that I can take part in the inevitable destruction of the Known World.

However, because of the huge gap between the time I last played and my current pc, I did notice that the common reaction between magickers and mundanes have changed rather dramatically. It is now considered normal when gemmers' attitude become very uppity - is it because of how other pcs react to them and the more slackening tolerance to the gemmer population? I don't know.  

But what I do notice is that there are more NON hostile relationships between magickers and mundanes, which leads me to wonder is it because of IC reasons that my char have not yet experienced? Or is it just because of the rather surprising increase in the numbers of magickers?

I honestly miss the times when magickers, even those residing in Allanak are considered filthy, cursed scums that are not even close to what a human should be. I also miss the times when conflicts between mundanes and magickers are more frequent. I mean, after all, the unfairness of the society - oppressive templars, corrupting soldiers and hard to please nobles - in Armageddon is what makes the game attractive isn't it?

[spawnloser]

And Twisted Minstrel, your character DOESN'T know that magickers are beneficial and doesn't know if there is a horrible price down the road for those benefits.

Just like YOU don't know what MY character does and doesn't know?

Thing is, NOONE ever knows what someone else will do... and our characters, according to the documentation, were raised being told that you can't trust elves, that half-elves are impure and beneath notice, and that magickers are foul abominations.  If you say that your character knows that magickers are  decent people, you are going against the documentation, and that is just the way it is.

Don't be the kank-riding elf.  Remember that phrase?  Think about it and keep thinking about it.

[Barzalene]

I didn't read the whole six thousand posts. Stopped somewhere on page five.

The problem is, the people that are willing to give up their karma to keep the game balanced are probably people that will already play mundane characters because they see that that's what the game needs.

So, I'd say, if everyone whether by giving up karma or not thought really hard about making those other pc's it'd probably go a really long way.

Sorry if that was said already.

[Reiloth]

We already are, Barzalene. We already are.

[Ktavialt]

There's all sorts of rational reasons for your character to believe this.  Your character isn't a modern person with a lot of education, ideals, and open-mindedness.  Your character should be ignorant, fearful, and superstitious.

Okay, I get it.  I've met ignorant people, but generally for ignorance you need isolation.  After awhile, people who live together tend to tolerate each other.  Then there's the playability aspect.  It should be driven home a little better that you should be prepared for this isolation if playing a half elf.

We also ask you to believe that humans think elves are terrible, and vice versa.  And that both of them consider half-elves to be even worse.

I've never seen a militiaman boot a half-elf/elf/magicker out of the Gaj or the Barrel.  Should that be allowed?  I have a nagging belief that if my character wanted that, they'd be yelled at by certain ranking people.

Also, there were fairly well known half-elf and elf Kuraci Sergeants not too long ago if I remember right.  What the heck is up with that?  So the NPCs don't follow these, rules, only the PCs?

We also ask you to believe that men and women are equal.

Which is easily substantiated, their stats are equal, and you don't have any conflicting RP aspects of Zalanthas to contradict this.

We ask you to believe these things because they are the truths of Zalanthas.

You know, I'd like to conform, however with the magick thing, templars use them regularly, they have their own friggan quarter, and they provide water for the militia.  I don't see the NPC soldiers complaining about what they're drinking.

With the mindset you've laid out about elementalists, it should be reasonable for a mob to go into the elementalist quarters, whack a few gemmers, and only get a light slap on the wrist by the templarate.  If not, and the templarate actually harms the commoners, then the other commoners should be revolting against the templarate, and some of the 'nakki soldiers may even sympathize and join them.  This sort of activity matches the mindset which you are portraying a lot better than the current one.

I just see a lot of do as I say, not as I do (if taking it from the mindset of the immortals creating the environment).

[bardbard#4]

For once I actually agree with spawnloser.  That is, on the point of how our characters should be reacting to magickers, and that is with fear.

It's how that fear is manifested in the population that I have a huge problem with.

In my mind, a huge upsurge in the presence of magickers should manifest in ENORMOUS FUCKING MOBS OF SCARED ANGRY NORMAL PEOPLE WHO JUST WANT TO GO THROUGH LIFE WITHOUT HAVING THEIR BABIES EATEN BY FIRE AND SHADOW-WIELDING DEMONS OF DOOM!!

But that doesn't happen, because...well...I don't know why it doesn't happen.  Probably because no one has tried to rally that many people around the cause of purging magickers from the world.  You can't spew that sort of rhetoric in Allanak because magick is "accepted" by the law, sort of.  And in Tuluk, it's already the case that magickers are lynched if discovered, or quietly disappeared.  There's also the fact that in terms of relative population, things are unbalanced, and here's what I mean.

Suppose we have 200 active characters, and 10 of them are magickers.  190 to 10...that's not all that shocking a ratio.  But look again...10 out of 200 is 1/2 of a percent.  In reality, are there that many magickers in the entire game world, virtually speaking?  Supposing there are a million people on Zalanthas.  That's 50 000 magickers.  That seems like a LOT to me.  And if that's the ratio, that's fine.  It's just that we as player characters aren't able to muster up the sort of mob-like reaction to something like that.

But maybe I'm wrong.  In fact this has given me a character concept idea.

Hmm.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Feel free to take my 'gickers (if I even have any), since I wasn't planning on using them anyway.

[Rindan]

My thoughts are pretty simple.  Armageddon is at its absolute best when it is mundane.  I loved Armageddon from the moment I stepped foot in it BECAUSE it was such mundane friendly place.  It takes normal high fantasy, bends it over, and does a number on its ass.  Yes yes yes, there is magik in Armageddon, and it certainly steers the world.  That said, the magik was always coming down from a place that was far higher than the characters.  When it did dip down to the level of the mundanes, it was an event.

I played this game a solid 5+ years witnessing only a SINGLE magiker cast... and that was a Templar casting while I was militia grunt.  My last outdoors character ran into half a dozen magikers openly casting in a couple of weeks.  The last time I touched the 'rinth (granted, this was probably 6-9 months ago) it was a bubbling pot of rogue magikers.  

Magiker plots leave non-magikers very sour and irritated people, especially in a world where magikers are tactical nukes that get better screwing around in the desert by themselves, and mundanes grow at the pace of an oak tree AND require help from other mundanes to get better.

Personally, I hope that the staff takes some of this whining and moaning to heart when making 2.Arm.  Make magik the way it used to be.  Make it a rare event that swoops in from on up high and causes shock and awe.  We don't need figher/mages, cleric/thieves, or silly D&D cliche.  Keep it dark, keep it brutal, and keep it low fantasy.

I think a defining moment came for me when I compared my earlier experiences with magiker to my later day experiences with magik.  My earliest experience with hostile magik came a solid 5+ years of playing the game.  Realize, that at 5+ years I was a solid veteran of the game.  My character was attacked by a magiker wielding a relatively low level Krathi spell.  I was so shocked that I fumbled around with my keyboard and ended up escaping almost dead... despite the fact that my character could have wiped the floor with this fellow long before he could pin prick me away with his low level casting.  I was just so unused to being set afire at the time, that I really just did not know how to respond.  I ran, terrified, told a Templar, and babbled about the event for weeks.  The event got a Templar to start a man hunt to get the culprits.  I got free ale from people I told the story too.

Fast forward to a few months ago when I was playing a very outdoorsy character.  In the course of a week or two, I ran into half half a dozen magiker mid cast (and who knows how many not casting).  While I certainly played my character all full of terror and what not, at my keyboard I was rolling my eyes and with very steady hands telling my kank to go find some other damn place to hunt.  I told people at the bar about my terrible event and got nothing more exciting than a few shrugs and some people telling me that they hate it when their hunts get interrupted my magikers.

Bah.

Some delusional staffer gave me a enough karma for all sorts of whacky magikal shit that I have no intention of playing. Some how, I feel that adding ANOTHER fucking secret mind bending noble aid to this world really just wont make me happy.  I don't need that crap.  I want low fantasy Armageddon with thieves, thugs, mercenaries, and thuggish thieving mercenaries.  You can merrily take my karma and add it to the magikal shit can.

[WarriorPoet]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Good ole Naatok to the rescue, with a topic from '02. I'd been playing less than a year when I posted this thread and remember it vividly:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=683

-WP urges -everyone- to read and re-read naatok's post there.

[Dalmeth]

I'm keeping whatever karma I have and hoping for a Nilazi.  :twisted:

It's just one of the things I want to play.  The role appeals to me.

My resentment against magick isn't for simply its prevalence, but the way it tends to take over a plot.  For instance, if you have a demon, only magick can really kill it or get to it.  Something always comes along where you need a magicker.  I should just be able to wait for the demon to come out, jump on the demon's chest, cut its heart out, and eat it to send it back to the nether realms.  Tasty fun for everyone!  Then there's the way magick tends to be a bigger, better analogue for all the mundane skills.  Simply put, my objection is in the structure of magick in the game, not magickers.

[Rhyden]

Ooo! Does this mean there'll be non half-elves for me to talk to in Tuluk?

SQUEE.

QFT.

Elves and half-elves own Tuluk right now.  Like I said, I know of at least five half-elves in the semi-peak hours and two or three elves.  Aside from that I also know of a shitload of southerners in the north, and approximately ten honest to goodness northern humans and four of those are in leadership/semi-leadership roles.

Wtf?

Good luck finding some simple, human-to-human RP.  Although I am definitely glad to see a lot more people hanging around Tuluk, don't get me wrong.

You know what. I kind of fucking hate it when people do this.

If it's not too many half-elves or elves, too many half-giants, magickers, psionicists, templars, nobles, Bynners, it's not enough.

So a few people are playing half-elves and elves in Tuluk? It doesn't mean Tuluk's being OVERRUN by the elven races, god damnit. It just means a few characters have had interest in playing those races.

Way to make a few players feel shitty about playing something they want to play.

[Hot_Dancer]

I can understand if humans hate elves, but the vice versa thing isn't totally accurate...

Elves hate and distrust anything outside their tribe (other elves included)..unless they can easily use them for whatever purpose or to steal quality goods and services..humans tend to be the easiest and safest to manipulate. In which, they still atleast distrust them, but they may begin to enjoy said services.

Granted, it probably wouldn't be so easy if humans despised elves more frequently.

Well, that's my opinion anyways..

[Troicha]

Just a quick note: please try to avoid casting aspersions on interactions with magickers behind which you may not know the whole story.

This isn't directed at anyone, I simply want to nip that in the bud.

[Twisted Minstrel]

Just a quick note: please try to avoid casting aspersions on interactions with magickers behind which you may not know the whole story.

This isn't directed at anyone, I simply want to nip that in the bud.

<3

And Twisted Minstrel, your character DOESN'T know that magickers are beneficial and doesn't know if there is a horrible price down the road for those benefits.

Just like YOU don't know what MY character does and doesn't know?

Thing is, NOONE ever knows what someone else will do... and our characters, according to the documentation, were raised being told that you can't trust elves, that half-elves are impure and beneath notice, and that magickers are foul abominations.  If you say that your character knows that magickers are  decent people, you are going against the documentation, and that is just the way it is.

Don't be the kank-riding elf.  Remember that phrase?  Think about it and keep thinking about it.

I'd like to see the quote where I said my character liked magickers. It's really amazing how you've jumped to so many conclusions.... All I did in the first place was say that your comparison to the presence of a magicker and hot scalding water wasn't a very good one at all.

[jstorrie]

Anyone with complaints about high fantasy can come and play with me. My character hasn't seen 'cool stuff' since the Plainsman was out and about.

As for a 'non-mundanes I've interacted with'... well, I've been playing the character for nearly a year, and as far as I know, it's about–

An arbitrary number of templars, who don't count;
One sorceror, who was a notorious character in his time;
An arbitrary number of Allanaki gemmed war-mages during the Copper War, which I feel don't count;
One rogue wind elementalist;
One psion, who briefly poked around in his head.
A handful of scary summoned monsters during an epic army-vs-defiler battle.

Of all of these interactions, only the ones with the templar and the one sorceror really lasted more than a few minutes. Some of you must really be hitting some hot-spots, because my character is often out and about and simply isn't running into this problem. Half-elves in Tuluk I have seen a few of, but people largely treat them with complete distrust; I see more bards being treated unreasonably than half-elves, really.

So that's less than ten in a year for me. Less than one each month. Mundane havens do still exist in Zalanthas, and they're pretty much right where you'd expect them to be.

[Coat of Arms]

Apparently you're some unique exception.

:wink:

[Whira's Luck]

Wow. So much hatin'! Like many of my posts in the past, this is probably going to be long-winded, so feel free to skip ahead, I won't mind.

First of all, this post isn't going to be about magickers, or hating magickers or how magickers are taking over the world. For better or worse, I really think the topic has been beaten well and tender, and there's nothing I could add that people on every side haven't already said.

While it isn't the thread for it, it's been repeated multiple times in this thread, and I'd like to address it (Not that I'm some huge authority or anything, but it is a subject I've thought of before, a lot).

I think people, in relationship to other races, are throwing out the word hate a lot more than it needs to be. I'm fairly certain the docs don't state humans hate elves. I'm pretty sure that the majority of average joe humans don't go out of their way to make elf or even half-elf lives extraordinarily difficult. Hate implies a level of maleficence that mistrust does not. (I think I went into this in a post on half-elves once).

Anyways, hate: to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; detest.

Mistrust: to regard with mistrust, suspicion, or doubt; distrust.

While one automatically may mistrust someone they hate, this is not always the case. It is possible to hate someone and still trust them (or their motives regarding you). It is also possible to tolerate or even like (or enjoy the company of) someone without trusting them.

Considering elves are the 2nd most populous race in the Known world (or so I have been always told), and considering the sheer amount of half-elves and elves which are NPCs and merchants that most people don't bat half an eyelash toward (though they will hate on the pc standing next to them), outright malevolent hatred seems... well... not realistic. Like was mentioned, there's nothing about hating them in the docs. Mistrust? Yes. Even some scorn. But hate? Seems about as pointless as hating ceramic plates as opposed to wood because they break more easily.

Now, mistrust? That's perfectly awesome. In fact, I would go so far as to say there should be more general distrust toward EVERYONE, be it human to human, or human to elf, or anything to anything. I mean, you don't have to hate someone, or spit at someone to distrust them, it just means you're suspicious of their motives, or may imagine them to have motives that may not be beneficial toward them. We've done to death the fact that most people in the world aren't really altruistic by the definition of that word. They may be nice, but most folks won't go out of their way to be nice to people because they genuinely enjoy being nice. So why is distrusting people so hard? Sure, they may not be actively out to fuck you, but be sure, if you bend over and present an attractive target, then sure, someone should be expected to take advantage of it. Just because you're human doesn't automatically make you part of some sort of loving brotherhood of humans. Just because you're an elf doesn't make you part of the Elven Collective in which you automagically trust or like other elves. And just because you may distrust elves as a human doesn't mean you're not going to deal with them, talk to them, make use of them and be as polite as you are to anyone else you distrust on a neutral, apathetic level.

The problem seems to come in when humans (and elves) seem unable or unwilling to act in the shades of grey that the game is based on, and are thrust into a black-and-white reaction towards the world. If someone is an elf, then a human must HATE them and make their lives miserable or they LOVE them. If an elf is not nice toward another elf, then they must HATE them and oh, what a crappy elf that hates elves... uh.. right? No.

And if elves do manage to find stupid, gullible humans that seem to trust them, then it's UP TO THEM to bend them over and screw them in every way that gets them some benefit. Hell, I used to play a few elves that would be SUPER nice to humans (and other elves) in order to scam them (which they did on a continual basis), whether it be to get free stuff (with no intention of paying them back or returning the favor, or to get obscene amounts of money for really crappy things. Which they would buy. Hell, my favorite ever elven moment was selling another elf something, then turning around and telling the person they couldn't afford to buy something to drink because 'they had no money they could spend'. And the other elf believed them, took them at their word and bought them stuff to drink and party with. Anyone who -trusts- an elf does deserve to get screwed by that elf. Or should at least expect it. BUT it doesn't mean they have to throw on the hate, and seek to exterminate them, or burn them on the stake, or whatever.

Saying the above, anyone should expect the same from most HUMANS. In fact, the first thing most people should think when ANYONE they don't know is being nice to them is "What do they want from me?" It's just that humans tend to earn trust a little faster from other humans they know and that elves and half-elves, should start at a lower level. It should take far far more time to trust an elf or half-elf. But that also doesn't mean you have to pelt them with rotten fruit at every opportunity. In fact, most humans would probably 'trust' an elf they didn't know as little as a human they didn't know and probably a lot more than a human they knew who was known to screw other people over on a continual basis.

I look at it sort of as a sliding scale.

Whira's Scale o' Trust:

10 - Trusted without reservation - people you have known for years who have saved your life on various occasions, have sacrificed themselves for you in real ways that caused you to not only be indebted to them, but you KNOW they look out for your good. Best friends. Anyone you would willingly put your life in their hands. Someone you know would sacrifice their life to save you, and vice versa. Not only would you never betray them, but you know to the very core of your being that they would never, ever betray you.

9

8 - Trusted friends - People you know would go out of their way to help you, most of the time. They might not sacrifice their lives, but they'd sacrifice a good bit. You'd be VERY surprised if they betrayed you. You might even try to rationalize it. (a good starting place for most elves in relation to their tribesmates).

7

6

5 - Friends/Trusted. People you know for a while that seem to be okay. They may not stick their neck out for you, but they might help you out if you're in a bad way and it doesn't cost them much effort. You'd be fairly surprised if they betrayed you, and it might hurt a lot if they did. You enjoy spending time with them and go out of your way to keep them company.

4 - Moderately trusted.

3 - Somewhat trusted.

2 - Mildly trusted/friendly acquaintances. You're pretty sure they're not going to screw you over and you're beginning to have faith in them. You wouldn't be surprised if they did screw you over, but it might sting a bit if they did. You might not even like them that much, and you may not go out of your way to find 'em when you're bored, but they're alright company when they're around.

1 - Acquaintances. People you are pretty sure aren't out to screw you over and you enjoy spending time with them. You wouldn't be surprised if they turned around and screwed you, but you're *fairly* confident they wouldn't go out of their way to do so unless it benefited them more than continuing tolerance would.

0 - Neutral. People you don't know. You have no clue as to their true motives. They might screw you over, they might not. (most humans should probably start at this level in relation to each other)

-1 Mildly distrusted. They may seem benign but you don't really know them and they have some sort of attribute that makes them not quite right in your eyes. They might be trouble, but you aren't really sure yet.

-2  Somewhat distrusted. Not only do you not really know their motives, you may feel you never will. They are different from you in ways you consider bad or undesirable. They probably aren't useful or more trouble than they're worth to know. You wouldn't go out of your way to keep them company, but you wouldn't necessarily avoid it, especially if they're entertaining. (most humans would start out at this level toward half-elves)

-3 Mistrusted. You are actively suspicious of their motives, even if their actions appear to be benign. You wouldn't necessarily go out of your way to revile them, unless they acted in ways that made it obvious they were screwing you over, but you're pretty sure that they're just looking for a way to screw you. May still be useful, but be wary in dealings. You may not even mind their company if they happen to be around, but you certainly don't go out of your way to find it for any reason. (most humans would start out at this level toward elves. Elves would start out at this level toward everyone not in their specific tribe.)

-4

-5 Mistrusted/feared/hated. You are actively suspicious of their motives, ESPECIALLY if they appear to be benign. You go out of your way to avoid them when possible, and will only deal with them when you must. All actions on their part are potentially hostile, or even potentially lethal. You might not outright run in horror or heap abuse on them, but it's only because you are truly frightened they might do bad things to you because they didn't like you. You believe they might even be able to sense your fear, and you believe they are working against you, or at least to your detriment -even if they aren't aware of it-. (most mundanes would feel this toward magickers - In Allanak and elsewhere)

-6

-7 Loathed/Terrified. Most enemies. You are frightened of them, both irrationally and for good reason. You have reason to believe they are actively working against you, and so you actively work against them. You still would go out of your way to avoid them whenever possible, to the point of completely shunning them. You delight in their pain when it's inflicted to them and will most often want to be someone inflicting it. (most mundanes in Tuluk would feel this way toward magickers).
-8

- 9

-10 Utterly despised/Stuff of nightmares - They are your ultimate enemy. If you saw them and knew you could get away with it, you would kill them without a moment's hesitation. You actively work to create this kind of scenario. Their utter obliteration would not only please you to no end, but you'd likely throw a party if it happened and reward whoever caused their demise (if it wasn't you). You know that their very existance is not only a blight upon you, but every other being. The only way you would ever work with them is of some inordinate benefit to yourself, and once you received it, would probably destroy them and that's only if you had utterly no morals or sense of self-preservation. (most everyone would feel this toward mindbenders and sorcs).

Granted, this isn't a strict scale. You can be entertained by someone and still really not trust them or like them very much. But it gives, at least to me, a better sense of scale of trust/mistrust and fits the docs.

So.. yeah. Anyways. Keep in mind that distrust =! hate, and even hate has different levels, as does trust. Just be realistic about who you hate and who you like, and it will certainly make the world an interesting place.

<3 Whira's Luck

[mansa]

...
Ghost (who started the idea)
...

Kudos to you all.

Actually, it was Vanth who suggested the idea.
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=295710#295710

And Ghost who took up Vanth's Challenge first:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=295712#295712

[Vanth]

Mundane havens do still exist in Zalanthas, and they're pretty much right where you'd expect them to be.

Oh, the irony.

[Ourla]

Oh, the irony.

This scares me a little.  Stop it.

[Vanth]

Oh, the irony.

This scares me a little.  Stop it.

I mean, no one wants to play in Tuluk because it's "too nice" ...try manifesting as a magicker in Tuluk and see how "nice" it is then.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Heh. I might have to try that sometime. Roll up a Rukkian, wait for the two hour mark to pass, then freak out and hex the first poor sucker to look at me cross-eyed.
And then torture and disappearance and horrible screaming death.
Fun for the whole family!

[Agent_137]

:donates his magicker karma.

[spawnloser]

I'd like to see the quote where I said my character liked magickers. It's really amazing how you've jumped to so many conclusions.... All I did in the first place was say that your comparison to the presence of a magicker and hot scalding water wasn't a very good one at all.

Perhaps I should have said, "one's character" instead of "your character."  I in no way shape or form intended that to mean that your character does do something.  I was using it as a generic form of address as we are wont to do with the English language when speaking informally.

Now that we've gotten past that attempt to undermine my point...

I don't think my analogy (which is what it was, not a comparison) was too off.  Our characters are taught from a young age that magickers will do horrible and horrific things to you, just like sticking your hand in scalding water.  Our characters should expect to get burned when dealing with magickers.