Re: Reminder about what your character knows and feels

[Lizzie]

YOUR character was taught that. YOU are probably playing a city-born-and-based character who hasn't ventured outside the city walls on a regular basis in order to deal with some very specific, long-term plotlines of recent note. Pretty much anyone who is involved with some of these plotlines would have a different take on the whole "your character hates and fears magickers you must comply with the docs and act accordingly" thing. And I'd explain further, but IT IS IC as I've said, and the IC situation pretty much puts the kabosh on the docs and tosses it into the chaos is came from. That doesn't mean we should all of a sudden like magickers. Or trust them. Or have their babies. What it means..is that..

IT IS IC.

and should remain that way.

[Dalmeth]

Our characters should expect to get burned when dealing with magickers.

Yeah, but the simple fact is that with the way magick works currently, no non-magicker is ever going to get burned by a magicker if they stay on their good side.  The current system actually encourages friendliness.  This quickly wears away at what characters should expect to happen if they deal with magickers.  If they get caught, though, that's a different story.  Then, whatever society caught them does the punishing.   This is all about the theme of oppression prevalent in the game.  The problem is, we're all so concerned about representing negative oppression, we never get around to giving it a more positive spin as protection.  The system just doesn't encourage it.

[brytta.leofa]

Speaking only of Allanak-- if there's going to be a more substantial divide between elementalists and mundanes, I almost think that one group needs to get a legal or social boost (even if it's informal) over the other.  Right now, gemmers and mundanes have exactly the same rights (heh) and expectations under the law.  With unbiased law enforcement only a half-giant away, it's hard to make credible threats.  Commoners are afraid to harass the Templarate's pets, and 'gickers use of their powers is very strictly controlled inside the walls.

Obviously, law enforcement is tight in the City for anybody.  But if tensions actually run high between the two groups, I'd like to see somebody get messed up--or at least hassled--occasionally, without quite the usual repercussions.

Some of this could happen through social pressure as well as coded power, and that's fine.  And I don't care what group is on top, or if it varies; having recently played a wiggler, I would have welcomed either end of the stick.  Isolation is wearing, but simmering conflict is fun.

[Little Darkness]

I don't think anything puts the kabosh on the documentation for the game world.  The docs are there for good reason, and I think alot of the anger that has been expressed in this thread reinforces that.

While I consider that there could be, and are, some exceptional circumstances which might lead a character to not follow the documented general expectations and reactions to racial/guild identity, the vast majority of people should be conforming to the standard conventions.

Let's look at the real world for an example.  Most 'normal' people in society would be at least suspicious of someone they knew to be a drug dealer.  Meeting such, a normal person would at the very least react with suspicion and fear, and many would probably alert the authorities.  Now, lets say that this poor normal person has his or her life saved by a drug dealer, or that the drug dealer saved that person's child's life, or donates alot of time and money into the neighborhood to help improve schools, playgrounds, businesses, housing, etc.

Would a normal, average, everyday sort of person be inclined to ignore experience?  No.  There is a reason why we consider experience to be the most profound teacher. Overcoming preconception is a monumental task, but it is not impossible.  It is just fairly rare.  

In my experience I've known people whom I considered to be intelligent, open-minded, caring individuals, who in the face of their fears, have become suspicious, back-stabbing and hateful toward the object of their fears, even if that object is a person they have known for years.  I have also seen the reverse happen.

The documentation is there for good reason and before roleplaying exceptions to it, we should all deeply consider the hows and whys of it.  I believe what the staff was referring to is what they've seen to be very little consideration before a character seems to switch-off personal and social preconceptions.  Unless I'm terribly mistaken, it is intended as more a statement of that sort of problem than anything else.

[mansa]

...
Let's look at the real world for an example.  Most 'normal' people in society would be at least suspicious of someone they knew to be a drug dealer.  Meeting such, a normal person would at the very least react with suspicion and fear, and many would probably alert the authorities.  Now, lets say that this poor normal person has his or her life saved by a drug dealer, or that the drug dealer saved that person's child's life, or donates alot of time and money into the neighborhood to help improve schools, playgrounds, businesses, housing, etc.

Would a normal, average, everyday sort of person be inclined to ignore experience?  No.  There is a reason why we consider experience to be the most profound teacher. Overcoming preconception is a monumental task, but it is not impossible.  It is just fairly rare.  

...

Using this example:

You find yourself in an area where there are many drug dealers on ever floor of your apartment.

Your world view would tend to change and shift, to think that there are drug dealers everywhere, and it's a normal thing to see needles in the elevator of the building.


Now, I've been repeating myself again and again, but the problem still exists, and it's deeper than just a multitude of people playing Magickers.  It's stemming around why people even play the game itself, and what is going on inside the game itself.  What is the point of the game?

I think that's the question that needs to be addressed and reinforced within the game world.

[Coat of Arms]

I think we accomplished a lot yesterday and I'm a little proud, even though I didn't have any magicker karma to sacrifice myself. And although many of those who did were probably never going to use that karma to play magickers, it's still a great statement. And I'm sure it'll make a difference, along with the new special app rules, even if it takes a little while before it's noticeable. It pleases me greatly to see that this discussion was, for once, not left ignored by the staff. Thanks.

[Forest Junkie]

And although many of those who did were probably never going to use that karma to play magickers, it's still a great statement.

I think you're being mislead here. There were several players who hardly make use of their karma that gave up those priveleges. However, many players, including myself, play mages every third character, or ever other character. This is going to be a big change for us. Don't forgot the one individual who even stored their mage and had their karma removed so they could hop on the bandwagon.

I think the ramifications of this are going to be far more broad than we at first anticipated. And I think that's wonderful.

[Halaster]

It isn't the game I fell in love with...

End the world now ... Take this dying creature out and shoot it...

If it means getting the old game back...

Once upon a time, I would have called you three a bunch of turds (well, I still might) for saying this, but these days, I completely agree.  The game now is a lot different due to the awful decision of opening the flood-gates to special apps last year.  Happily, that has since been corrected, but I think it's simply too late - the damage is done.

I'm not on staff any longer so likely don't see the whole picture now, but I will say that giving up your karma to help lessen the problem is probably not quite the right answer.  Just don't play the role if you don't want to play the role.

Even then it's just a gesture and not a fix.  And really, the problem is simply not fixable, it's too late, you can't go back to the way it was.  You can, however, work towards change in the future and making the best with the way it's become.  For example, all of you who volunteered to give up your karma in a form of protest, should form a new group of characters who all hate magick and want it to go away.  Organize, IC, and start a "movement" and get people to join your cause and start witch hunts and hunt down and destroy this "infestation".  Yes, I know, mundanes against mages isn't easy, but it can definitely be done.  Some of the bigger IC historical events were started by players, you just have to have the right leader(s) who is/are motivated, etc.  Then you simply just have to work towards it.  I know this sounds kind of like some BS a motivational speaker might say, but it really is true.  Just do it.

One of you should step up - be the next Thrain! ARRRRR!  Even though the world is going to end and there's nothing you can do about it, you can still change the way it exists until that point.

[Forest Junkie]

I beg to differ Halaster. It's already having a profound effect on the game. I've already noticed several new mundanes in a certain city.

Things are turning around.

This is seriously working.

[Coat of Arms]

I think this would be a great thing to make a videocast thingy about.

The Day the Players Rebelled!

[Forest Junkie]

The Day the Players Rebelled!

I prefer something to the effect of "The Day the Players Unified." I mean hell, this is probably one of the only times where we've really come together as a community and stood for something.

[Krath]

I think this would be a great thing to make a videocast thingy about.

The Day the Players Rebelled!

Were not gonna take it! No we ain't gonna take it! Were not gonna take it
ANYMORE!!!

[Ashes]

To this, I simply say:


Win.

[manonfire]

I gave up my karma to rid myself of the urge. If it doubles as some sort of forceful statement, that's fine too.

[Lizzie]

This is actually a very inspiring thread. I was sort of joking in my previous sentiments..but the more I see how much you would all like magicks returning to their "mysterious and rare" status, the more I am looking forward to BEING that mysterious and rare magicker. In fact, I had planned on NOT making a magicker if I had the karma for it, until I felt comfortable that there weren't so many around. Now that I know there won't be so many around, I think it's gonna be an AWESOME experience to be the rare, secret, hidden, "OMG I CAN'T LET ANYONE CATCH ME" loathesome hateful fear-inspiring abomination. Because up until now, it would've just been "oh - another magicker."

Which would have been fine, but it just isn't what I'm looking for when I play roles that are documented as being a challenge.

So when my current PC dies, everyone do me a favor and don't look behind the thicket at least for a couple of days. I'd like to at -least- successfully cast something before I get caught

[Dresan]

Hmm...i disagree with Halaster in a few of his points.

First off, there are alot of mages but i don't believe it is currently as big of a problem as it was a couple of months ago when the "End of Days' announcement came. However the current trend is a sign of things to come.

However i truely believe (and i'm not sure if even all staff would agree with me anymore it seems) it is NOT an IC problem. If all the player population would be playing mages, thats what currently 270 players+Npc+Vnpc, thats still a small fraction of the 1.5 million virtual mundanes in Zalathas. In short the documentation would still be right, in the great scheme of things magick is rare to the world. It should not be treated otherwise. Sure a few mundanes may become 'special' in the sense they become acustomed or unafraid or involved more often then not in magick but they would be extremely rare too.

However the OOC game world and setting is not built to support a entire playerbase of magickers. It just wasn't built and designed that way, Karma in concept became a short term solution when magickers were beefed up. Self regulation is a fantasy that has rarely worked in the real world. You can't always expect the same people to make the sacrifice and other just simply won't. I know the staff doesn't want to spend energy and time on this old game anymore but its going to hurt the future game if they don't.

Again since its an OOC problem, IC 'solutions' will only contribute to it because:
1. While fun, it will just contribute to more plots with magickal components.
2. Does not solve the actual problem of people making magickers, infact it might just increase it.
3. Chances are the documentation will be ignored. Less fear and less rareness.

What is needed is a solid long term OOC solution, these are the only ones i can think of are:

1. The game documentation change, the setting changes, in short the  game changes inorder to accommodate the larger playerbase of magickers.

This is probably a possible solution for the next game but its hardly one that will hold well in the stomachs of many for this version of the game. However its a possibility and needs to be mentioned.

2. Less coded incentives for playing magickers and more coded incentives for playing mundanes

This is more reasonable solution but impractical given the situation of the current staff, making a new game, the old magicker coder Halaster long gone. Still making magicker take longer to train or mundanes shorter will help still its not the best solution.


3.Karma stays but magickers become App-only. The staff reviews magical apps at a case by case basis and come up with rules to regulate the numbers.

This is probably the best solution (mentioned before i assume) if not the hardest to swallow because it will mean some of the magicker happy player leaving. It also means more work for some unlucky staff members on App duty but inorder to maintain the game sacrifices need to be made and not only by the playerbase. By doing it this way, the staff will be able to tell who played a magicker for a year and then a warrior for three hours before apping for another magicker. It means that they can shut down magicker apps before major HRPT events to keep magickers from suddenly flooding in like in the copper wars.

Like i said though the playerbase might suffer a bit but it will get used to it like always has. I think the integrity and spirit of the game will be preserved no matter how much karma the entire playerbase accumilates over the years. Only with an OOC solution like this will an IC solution to a perception of their being too many magickers work. Since once you kill a long lived magicker or group of magickers, you know that those players won't be coming back in a magickal form for a while.


Unfortunately if self-regulation worked we wouldn't need law enforcement or goverment in the real world.

EDITTED TO ADD:

Let me just say i don't think magickal player numbers are a huge problem....yet. The key word being yet, it will become a problem as soon as any HRPT comes along or the next 'end of days' announcement or just more time passes and more people gain karma. Therefore i do believe a solution should be deciced on before it potentially become a greater problem. I also don't think people giving up karma isn't really a solution or even fair and i believe its positive effects will be short lived.

[Gimfalisette]

A couple more people added themselves to the "Take my karma, please!" movement. (* marks those who are new.) Current list is:

Agent_137 *
Akoto
Alberic
aruna
bardbard#4
Boggis
BuNutzCola
Delirium
Dresan
Fathi
Forest Junkie
Ghost (who started the idea after Vanth suggested it)
Gimfalisette
Hot_Dancer
Janna
Krath
LoD
manonfire
mansa
Maybe42or54
Ourla
path
Reiloth (who also retired his 'gicker)
Rhyden
Shiroi Tsuki *
Twisted Minstrel
WarriorPoet
WWYD
Yang

Shalooonsh, how much 'gicker karma are we up to now?

[spawnloser]

I felt like I had to add something, since people keep saying that the reality and the documentation don't agree.  I agree with you, but I disagree on what point.  Magick is rare?  It still is, because players aren't representative of the population.  What is going counter to documentation is what Dakurus brought up, people's reactions to the magickers.

Okay, I am currently playing a "rogue magicker."  I will say no more to help people figure out which... but I will say this:  I was HOPING that people would try to lynch my character, hunt my character or generally freak out when they found out.  People have found out.  I haven't been lynched.  Noone's organized any sort of hunt.  Only ONE person freaked out.

My character isn't the problem.  It's the characters that don't get freaked out EVERY time they see a magicker.  Just because you've seen a dozen 'Really Scary Things' (tm) doesn't mean that they should stop being scary.

Again I say, don't be the kank-riding elf.

[LoD]

Again I say, don't be the kank-riding elf.

When the exception to the rule becomes the norm, then perceptions change.  The relationship you describe is a two-way door.  The obligation does not rest solely with the mundane players to react to your character with fear, suspicion, and hatred.  The obligation is mutual, and as long as the players of magickal characters don't take the responsibility to curb their own numbers, proliferation in the game, and visibility amidst the mundane, they are only perpetuating the problem.

The mundane players could as easily request that you be more "rare and mysterious".  Seems easy, but I'm guessing you'll find it just as difficult to uphold your part of the bargain as mundane players are finding it to uphold theirs because both of you are at the mercy of what many consider a current problem with the game.

-LoD

[Forest Junkie]

Spawn, I totally agree. I tried playing one of the most disgusting, vile, and repulsive magicker concepts I could come up with. Not only was I putrid and stomach-churning to look at, but my behavior was rather strange as well.

I can note only one, possibly two characters who were fearful of my own. A few were actually friendly with him.

It's time to move on, though. We're going to grow as a result of this venture. I promise.

[X-D]

I just wonder how many of those PC's were also rogue mages.

I myself, in the last 4 years have played 2 mages who were able to remain secret, even to other mages for more then 3 RL months...Course one of them did so by acting mundane to the point of freaking out if he saw magick other then his own but meh.

[Bogre]

So when my current PC dies, everyone do me a favor and don't look behind the thicket at least for a couple of days. I'd like to at -least- successfully cast something before I get caught

I agree. I feel bad but I'm definitely not giving up my karma when I've used only 1 pt in 4 years, and I've always wanted to play a drovian. That said, I hope I won't get the chance to use it . But if I do, then don't worry, you won't ever see my mage outright. Or maybe you will...I'll be your secret, afflicted best friend. Cursing your socks. HAHA. Too bad you can't hate me when I'm SEKRET.

But any rate, on to some of the other topics. I think its awesome people are dedicating to playing mundanes. I'm personally playing one right now and I'm excited to see it. I might actually be motivated to log on a lot more and be exciting and start plots

yay

[Barzalene]

 You can, however, work towards change in the future and making the best with the way it's become.  For example, all of you who volunteered to give up your karma in a form of protest, should form a new group of characters who all hate magick and want it to go away.  Organize, IC, and start a "movement" and get people to join your cause and start witch hunts and hunt down and destroy this "infestation".  Yes, I know, mundanes against mages isn't easy, but it can definitely be done.  Some of the bigger IC historical events were started by players, you just have to have the right leader(s) who is/are motivated, etc.  Then you simply just have to work towards it.  I know this sounds kind of like some BS a motivational speaker might say, but it really is true.  Just do it.

One of you should step up - be the next Thrain! ARRRRR!  Even though the world is going to end and there's nothing you can do about it, you can still change the way it exists until that point.

This is such a damn fine idea! Really really fine idea.

[Barzalene]

Take my karma too, if it will save the game. I don't really use it, I just like to take it out and look at it when I'm alone. I don't touch it, I just look.

[Rindan]

My character isn't the problem.  It's the characters that don't get freaked out EVERY time they see a magicker.  Just because you've seen a dozen 'Really Scary Things' (tm) doesn't mean that they should stop being scary.

Again I say, don't be the kank-riding elf.

Let me give you some contrast.  I had a Kuraci about 5+ years ago.  At one point in his life he was jumped by a magiker raider.  I was shocked and almost died despite getting hit by a pre-pwnage magiker firing n00b spells... despite the fact I probably could have wiped the floor with him.  I ran into town, told everyone what I saw, and Templars were out not long after.  A minor plot started, a lynch mob lead by the Allanaki Templerate was formed, and the magiker and his friends were eventually brought to justice.  I got free ale for telling the story.

Fast forward to about 6 months ago.  My characters runs into three magikers in as many days outside of Tuluk.  I come breathless to the bar to share my experience (despite the fact that I was rolling my eyes in the real world).  People shrug, someone tries to muster some righteous indignation when the other hunters at the bar mention similar experiences happening all the time recently.  Everyone shrugs and goes back to what they were doing.  Nothing is done otherwise

Why the difference in responses?  In the first instance, magikers was rare.  It happened, but it was an event.  You could organize a response, form plots, and do something about it because it happened so rarely.  When it becomes an everyday instance, you just can't muster that sort of response.  Players have other things they want to be doing other than going on a magiker hunt 24/7.  I mean hell, you could probably form a magiker hunting bounty service these days score big with all the heads you could pull in.  It just doesn't inspire the same sort of excitement and rarity that it used it.  The magik thing is routine.  

I'll still run flailing from magikers, but I won't devote the existence of my merry mundane to responding to magikers.  I'll run flailing... and then move on.  If I wanted to do nothing but RP with magikers 24/7... I would play a magiker.