Stop slumming, Allanaki Templars and Nobility

[marko]

Personally, I think it is bad form for a noble of any House to go into the Bard's Barrel regularly.  There may be exceptional circumstances where a noble needs to go into the Barrel and there may be situations where a noble purposefully goes there to 'slum.'

Slumming is acceptable - so long as it is done with the proper "discretion" or rather displays of discretion - typically most people know when a noble is slumming but they tend to make an attempt to disguise themselves.

But any noble (especially those of the upper tier) who spends a significant amount of time in the Barrel should expect to be ridiculed by the entire noble class.  That means they aren't just going there for a single purpose it means they are trying to mingle with their lowers.  They are purposefully turning their back on their peers and mingling with the lowers in a base environment.  They are, for all intents and purposes, abandoning their upbringing, the years of being taught that they are better, that they are superior, and that they are noble.

For the past two thousand years Allanaki nobles have purposefully maintained their power through ritualized displays of superiority and arrogance.  Bowing to a noble is one of these accepted forms of enforcing the division - but by going to the Barrel regularly one errodes their own status as a noble and all other noble's status.  Such a noble becomes a danger to the entire noble class.

Those who wish to be the 'rebels' would be ostracized and the House they are with would likely seek to disown or minimalize their own contact with the freak.  

As for the OOC considerations taking precidence - in this situation I do not agree.   I've played a few Allanaki nobles and you do not have to go into the Barrel.  It's not vital, it's not necessary, and it isn't even convienent.  Doing so creates an IC situation that has to be dealt with.  If a noble wishes to make that choice to be ridiculed, laughed at, mocked, and generally considered a fool - then, by all means, make that choice.  Just be aware of the social consequences amongst the peer group for the action.

This really is a situation where if you try to do the OOC thing the IC consequences should bite you.

[FightClub]

A lot of truth in what marko just said, this might be a lot more acceptable in the north, because of the illusions nobles, and templarate put of being on somewhat even grounds with commoners, but in Allanak there is no question.  I'm a bit torn here as to what would be best, to throw them out and say you'll get laughed at for coming here, or to allow it for the sake of recruitment, as long as that is their agenda for going there.  What seems to be certain is that they should not be there to socialize, or enjoy their time.

[Briarfox]

A lot of truth in what marko just said, this might be a lot more acceptable in the north, because of the illusions nobles, and templarate put of being on somewhat even grounds with commoners, but in Allanak there is no question.  I'm a bit torn here as to what would be best, to throw them out and say you'll get laughed at for coming here, or to allow it for the sake of recruitment, as long as that is their agenda for going there.  What seems to be certain is that they should not be there to socialize, or enjoy their time.

There is no illusion to the nobiltity and templarate of Tuluk. They are a 'For the People' sort of culture, a clear opposite of Allanak. One must remember that in History, it was the Commoners of Tuluk who made the Chosen, saved them from Allanak and put them into the Houses that they now run. This is remembered by the nobility, thus their casual nature with the lower castes. While it appears the interactions are friendly and casual the fundamental understanding is that everyone knows nobles are better

I would like to point that it is usually unseemly for a 'Nakki noble to recruit on his/her/it's own. Such things are best left to trusted aides/guards/whatnot.

[Gaare]

I do not think, that's a big deal a noble seen in Bard's Barrel.

It's bad to have strict rules for such small matters.  A noble is visiting Bard's..

Well.. Can be a thousand of explanations.. Maybe, likes company of a certain waiter, maybe likes the owner, maybe there is an entrance for a compound of an underground group, home of a pet-defiler living in a chamber, there are special fights in chambers under the tavern...

Strict rules like "nobles does not visit Bard's"  probably reducing fun of playing one. I think 'naki noble role is one of the (if not most) hardest roles of 'nak. Giving them a little more freedom does not hurt.. Critizing is eaiser, making suggestions is not... after all.

[mansa]

The fun of Armageddon isn't in having your noble be a sorcerer who can fly to Tuluk and lightning bolt Muk Utep's ass.

The fun of Armageddon is playing in a world that is notably different than ours, which has different social levels than ours, which has cause and reaction based on this different universe that we created.

The point of ArmageddonMUD is to play a role within this setting, and -not- just do whatever you want to do because it is fun.  If your merchant wants to do spice all year long, he -should- be fired by his employee.  If your noble sleeps with an elf, they should be repremanded and most probably secretly 'snuffed out' by his noble house for making them look like fools.

I just don't like to walk by the bard's barrel, and see two templars and a noble, with all their entourage, just sitting in there talking about stuff.  That's like the police chief, the CEO of a major company and the mayor of town sitting in McDonalds/disease infested strip joint

[James de Monet]

That's like the police chief, the CEO of a major company and the mayor of town sitting in a disease infested strip joint

What, you don't think that's likely?  Dang you canucks and your reasonable politicians.

[Dan]

I do not think, that's a big deal a noble seen in Bard's Barrel.

It's bad to have strict rules for such small matters.  A noble is visiting Bard's..

Well.. Can be a thousand of explanations.. Maybe, likes company of a certain waiter, maybe likes the owner, maybe there is an entrance for a compound of an underground group, home of a pet-defiler living in a chamber, there are special fights in chambers under the tavern...

Strict rules like "nobles does not visit Bard's"  probably reducing fun of playing one. I think 'naki noble role is one of the (if not most) hardest roles of 'nak. Giving them a little more freedom does not hurt.. Critizing is eaiser, making suggestions is not... after all.

This is under the Social Mores portion of Allanaki Nobility in the documentation. Very unlikely that a noble would openly like the owner of the Bard's Barrel, seeing as they are first foreigners which means they are not citizens, and secondly that that have -northern accents-.

There are other establishments in Allanak, including the Bard?s Barrel and the Gaj and Gladiator Tavern. While both of these are popular with the common, it is rare to see a noble frequenting either establishment ? with the Gaj and Gladiator practically unheard of as a temptation to the noble, except for the most illicit and degenerate purpose. The Bard?s Barrel, though it does feature entertainment and gambling, is owned by foreigners with northern accents, and frequented by elves, criminals and all sorts of other undesirable patrons. While nobles do sometimes attend the Bard?s Barrel, it is usually done as a daring lark, and most are careful to guard themselves and expect congress with the least appetizing of characters. The Barrel stinks, the seats are uncomfortable, and it is filled with commoners - this is not a place a noble of any rank would go to regularly unless they seek to 'slum.' Bear in mind, nobles that frequent the Barrel will likely be mocked by their peers.

One key portion of this quote that stands out to me is where it states that the barrel stinks, the seats are uncomfortable, and it is filled with commoners.

Nobles are very conscious of social class, and the first consideration in their head when meeting someone new will be a calculation of their social standing. Socializing with commoners is an odd thing for a noble, much like talking to a household object or their kank.

Now this is the documentation on the subjects, and with reading this it comes across to me that the players who run these nobles are not doing a terrible job of it. They are simply playing that caste of noble that is looked down upon by all of their NPC and VNPC counterparts, ridiculed behind the scenes, and generally not taken seriously by any of their Houses higher ups. This is most certainly an incorrect statement in practice within the game, but it is how such situations should be played out if one is going to play by the doctrine set forth by the immortals.

[WarriorPoet]

Seems like the perfect opportunity to heap some IC ridicule on that Barrel-idling noble.

"Yeah. I seen him, all fancy in his shitty red silks. Sitting there all snotty. Hah! You know who was at the table next to him? Two fucking halfbreeds, stinking of shit and throwing dice with a rinther that smelt even worse than them! REAL high-class. Har, har!"

-WP only played one character who rocked the Traders, but he rocked it hard.

[Naiona]

This is most certainly an incorrect statement in practice within the game, but it is how such situations should be played out if one is going to play by the doctrine set forth by the immortals.

I would not make assumptions about what NPCs and VNPCs in noble houses (or any clan) are thinking, doing or planning.  In most cases you would be incorrect.

[Dan]

Point taken Naiona, seeing as you wrote what I was quoting from I will definately take your word for it.

[Cuusardo]

The thing I don't understand about Allanak is that socializing with commoners is looked down upon, but it's okay for a noble to sleep with commoners.  Why is it considered bad taste to visit the Bard's Barrel, but not bad taste to father a whole line of bastards?

[Agent_137]

it's SEX.

come on, i mean, freaking SEX.

if there are exceptions ot the rules, it definitely happens in the realm of SEX.

[Eternal]

I think a lot of this is getting into the IC nature of noble roles... so it's becoming tricky.

Sleeping with commoners is fine in 'Nak about like sleeping with sheep in real life.  Everyone knows someone (not them) does it, everyone thinks it's crude, but since noble bastards have no birthright (and half-sheep don't seem to be a problem), it's fine to play with your filthy animals.  Just don't do it in public or try to justify it over a noble relationship.

(Okay, some people have pointed out to me that in European cultures sex with sheep is very, very bad... so replace every instance of sheep above with inflatable dolls if it works better for you!)

Edited because I'm a grammar nazi.

[Cuusardo]

it's SEX.

come on, i mean, freaking SEX.

if there are exceptions ot the rules, it definitely happens in the realm of SEX.

If that is the case, why is the complete opposite true for Tuluki nobles?  It's perfectly okay for them to socialize with commoners all they want, but sleeping with them is bad taste.  I don't get it.  The Tuluki standard makes more sense to me.

[Naiona]

Allanaki nobles have multiple reasons to sleep with commoners.  They have -no- reasons to have equal relationships with commoners.  The distinction is very clear in noble society.

Having a beautiful/handsome/capable/well-spoken concubine is a status symbol in Allanak - not a sign of the noble's love of commoners.  They are tools, servants and sometimes thought of fondly as the noble might care for a favorite pet or favorite slave.  They could be valued highly by their noble, whether for their skill or merely their appearance, but they would never be seen as anywhere near an equal.

Bastards in Allanak are also tools, often highly trusted by noble houses due to their conditioning and training since birth.  But, again - bastard nobles are not of the same social class as nobles and are never thought of as equals.

In Tuluk - noble society is much more based on caste then class.  While the division between the noble and common castes is friendly and much less violent and dangerous then Allanaki society (on the surface, at least), it is much more important to maintain the purity of the noble caste itself, lest the populace forget who is better and who serves whom.  The creation of a bastard noble would cross caste lines and create what would be seen as a halfbreed of sorts - only one whose very existence serves to insult the protectors and chosen of the Sun King himself.

Though Tuluki society seems casual on the surface, it is governed by a series of tabboos, unspoken rules and fear of vanishing and secret questioning.  Far more even then Allanak society, Tuluki citizens tend to at least outwardly follow established norms, lest they simply disappear in the night - no matter their circumstance of birth.

[bardbard#4]

Cuusardo, there's about a billion reasons why Tuluki nobility would socialize and not copulate with their commoners, whereas Allanak would do the opposite.  It's all a matter of historical context, and when that's considered, it makes perfect sense in either case.

An Allanaki noble sleeping with a concubine is a reaffirmation of the noble caste's dominance over the commoner caste.  It's prostitution.  And the thing about prostitution is that people hire whores not only for sex, but also for them to leave once sex is done.  For them, poontang is a commodity to be used up.  It's something that is prevalent in Allanaki society, which is exceedingly decadent by development -- a trait that we can see in many of earth's aristocracies.  It happens behind closed doors and away from public scrutiny (for the most part --  there is of course the 'show-prize' concubine deal that Naiona talks about).  There really is little comparison between private fornication and the public sensibilities of the nobles.  In a very real way, Allanaki nobles are castrated by their own trendy behavior, which is yet another way for them to distance themselves from the commoners (which I suspect they feel the need to do since their bloodlines are so fucking polluted).

In Tuluk, the relationship between commoners and nobles is entirely different.  It is so different, in fact, that you can hardly compare the Tuluki noble caste to the Allanaki nobles.  They serve completely different functions, which again hearkens back to the historical contexts from which they arose.  In Tuluk, the relationship is one of interdependence, and it's one that is heavily monitored by the state.  In terms of public socialization, it's important in Tuluk for the nobles to really understand the commoners.  That's why there aren't really slummy bars at all, not in the same sense as the Allanaki ones.  It's not at all uncommon for a Chosen Noble to show up in the Tooth and hang out with the common folk -- but I caution people to make a class comparison between the Tooth and the Sanc.  The difference is more in the context of flavor rather than class.  Same with the Firestorm and the Ghaati.

[ale six]

I want to throw my own cents in even though other people nailed it:

A noble having a commoner as a concubine (or even more than one) is perfectly acceptable and normal for many nobility. The practice is not seen as crude in Allanak, certainly not on the level of beastiality as Eternal described. In fact, a beautiful concubine clad in silks and fancy jewelry is considered a status symbol for many nobility, if the concubine is well mannered and socially trained. The noble is making a statement, "I am so rich that even my servants and concubines get to wear the bling."

Nobles would probably take great care in choosing which commoners to take as concubines. A noble who went to even the Trader's looking to pick up a hot commoner to sleep with would probably be ridiculed by his peers. Such a practice would look desperate and degenerate. A concubine is probably almost never picked straight off the street. Most likely start out as aides, slaves, or other house servants. They would need to prove that they can be trusted, and that they deserve the great honor of sharing a noble's bed. If they are granted the honor of sleeping with their noble, that noble is probably the only person the concubine will ever get to sleep with until they're put aside. Even having sexual relations doesn't make the relationship an equal one by any means.

So again, the concubines are still viewed as a possession or asset of their noble. They aren't seen as social equals. It would be scandalous if a noble began treating their concubine as an equal, or claimed to be "in love" with them. Concubines are seen as exotic pets, expensive toys... valuable possessions that a noble would guard jealously, but not as people who deserve equal consideration versus other nobles.

And concubines represent just about the highest a commoner could ever go in Allanaki society. There is a huge difference in spending time with your concubine (and usually intimate social relations like those would take place in private), and indiscriminate socialising with commoners in general.

[Marauder Moe]

A bit of a derail, but... would a Tuluki noble make use of a mulish love slave?  In essence, is it sex that's taboo or just interbreeding and sex is forbidden to ensure that there is no interbreeding?

[ale six]

I don't think anyone would make use of a mulish love slave.

I'm pretty sure Tuluki nobility do have sex slaves, but anyone who would want to get naked and cozy up to a mul would be crazy.... oh, wait.

Yes, Tulukis do make use of mulish love slaves. :twisted:

[bardbard#4]

A bit of a derail, but... would a Tuluki noble make use of a mulish love slave?  In essence, is it sex that's taboo or just interbreeding and sex is forbidden to ensure that there is no interbreeding?

My intuition tells me that they -might-, since a slave is not of the commoner caste.  They are property, but I think it would have to pretty much be a mul since muls are sterile.  I've seen pleasure slaves auctioned off by Winrothol in the recent past, which I suppose would support this, but I just don't know.

[jstorrie]

A Tuluki noble would be breaking norms to sleep with any slave, regardless of race or sterility. Not to say that there mightn't be a tea club of Winrothol countesses who love massive half-dwarf sausage, but if they ever got caught, they'd get vanished in a snap.

The difference between Tuluk and Allanak is partly one of convenience. Tuluk has been rebuilding, but for many years since the occupation has been a weak state. The commoners can't be controlled with force and fear of force as well as in Allanak because there simply isn't enough force collected up to do so at the moment.

Moreover, as commoners voluntarily stepped forward to aid and shelter hidden nobles during the occupation, the Tuluki noble and templar classes have much more appreciation for what they can do. In Allanak, nobles see commoners as trash, rabble, and barely people. In Tuluk, nobles see commoners as people - lesser people, but still people.

This again ties into the sex/no sex thing. If you don't see a group as people, coercing them into serving as your sex toys doesn't seem such a big thing. If you see them as a distinct group that has value but must remain distinct, however - like in Tuluk - there can be no mixing of blood.

Mileage may vary. Compassionate nobles, though an oddity, do exist (probably mostly in the PC population, really) who have some respect for commoners as people, in either city. And on the other end of the scale, malicious nobles who seem people of the common blood as nothing but beasts of labour exist in both as well. How those sentiments play out is based on the social norms of each city at large.

[spawnloser]

Having played a Tuluki noble and been involved in the sale of a sex slave, Chosen will sleep with slaves as they are objects and not commoners.

[jstorrie]

They oughtn't to. Technically a noble should not even be getting hanky-panky with a templar in Tuluk. No crossing caste lines, not even with slaves. That's what the documentation says, anyway.

[ale six]

Can you cite sources in the docs that prohibit Chosen/slave sexual relations, jstorrie?

There seems to be plenty of evidence to the contrary.

[Naiona]

The Chosen in Tuluk -do- use pleasure slaves, as do the templar caste.