Stop slumming, Allanaki Templars and Nobility

[UnderSeven]

When I played a noble I rarely went there (I mean my last noble) and I've also noticed a fair number of them not going there presently.  Actually I don't think this is really even a problem.  Templarate have reason to go just about anywhere, though maybenot hang out there.

What really needs to happen isn't that aides need to hang out in traders, nobles can order their aides around, what really needs to happen is nobles need to take it a step further.  You have highly competative nobles and templars and you have the bards barrel.  Just a little bit of rumor spreading and character defaming and I expect traders will become much more popular.

[Halaster]

This really isn't something that needs to be enforced and it isn't something that anyone needs to chastise anyone else OOCly for.  Follow the social documentation and act as your character would act - no matter their rank or station.

Couldn't say it any better.

[Cuusardo]

I think the newbie spawning spot in Tuluk should be Firestorm instead of the Sanctuary.  It's closer to all the shops.

And it is a little odd that the newbie spawning place in Allanak is the low-class scum bar, while in Tuluk it's the high-class fancypants bar.  Is there a reason for this disparity?

[mansa]

The Sun King's Sanctuary is a bar for all people.  I mean, there's a mul who farts there, and there's strippers and a mime.  I think it's the perfect place to start.

[Cuusardo]

There are also strippers at the Tooth, and they aren't quite as classy.  

[mansa]

Yes, but...

There's a major difference between the nobility in Tuluk and the nobility in Allanak.

For example:

A noble in Tuluk can purchase a drink for a commoner.  The crowd of the tavern would -think- different things about that interaction, compared to a noble in Allanak purchasing a drink for a commoner.

Ideas that the Allanaki society would be thinking are:
- They are sleeping together.
- The noble is using the commoner for something.
- The noble is low class, and an idiot.
- The noble can't afford to pay for someone to do it themselves, and therefore is broke (even though the noble is purchasing the item)

Ideas that the Tuluki society woudl be thinking are:
- The commoner is important in society to be given a favour by the chosen.
- The chosen likes to take charge of things
- The chosen likes to spend coins on people, and therefore is rich.
- The chosen is friends with that commoner.

There is a reason why a 'High Class Only' bar doesn't exist in Tuluk, because the 'High Class Only' noble doesn't exist in Tuluk.  Or, at least, they hide it very very well.  They would certainly not display it outside their estate.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I just want to reiterate what I said: don't blame the noble players so much.

Blame is too strong a word, so I'll say that the people who have the power and the responsibility to change this trend are the AIDES AND MERCHANTS.  Also Atrium students.  They're really too high-class for the Barrel as well.

I have to disagree with you there, the last time I played a reasonably well-off commoner who hung around at the Trader's, the nobles were... mean to me.

Thus robbing my character of any desire to ever enter the Traders.

Nobles, you've dug your own ditch, so get out of the Barrel and go lie in it.

[Forty Winks]

I just want to reiterate what I said: don't blame the noble players so much.

Blame is too strong a word, so I'll say that the people who have the power and the responsibility to change this trend are the AIDES AND MERCHANTS.  Also Atrium students.  They're really too high-class for the Barrel as well.

I have to disagree with you there, the last time I played a reasonably well-off commoner who hung around at the Trader's, the nobles were... mean to me.

Thus robbing my character of any desire to ever enter the Traders.

Nobles, you've dug your own ditch, so get out of the Barrel and go lie in it.

Choosing not to go to the Trader's when ICly that is where your character would be a decision made due to OOC factors. Of course, if your char was treated badly there or had a few bad encounters, they can always head to the Silver Ginka, but as there aren't very many PC patrons there, it all comes back down to "where the parties at". In any case, the Barrel holds its own kind of patrons, and mingling with them when you shouldn't typically means you either have "business" there (like games, partying, and gambling). Most other dealings of a more serious nature would be conducted in a similar such atmosphere such as the silver ginka, traders, or a rented-out backroom (at the "Traders"). The name itself should give some indication of the people who might visit the location.

That's my take on it.
-FW

[EvilRoeSlade]

I wasn't playing a noble, when I was playing one I never went into the Barrel.  A commoner can swing both ways, heh.

Anyway, I don't think that ignoring the game world to hang out in the Barrel is really the solution to the problem of not having anyone for your noble to interact with.  If you want people to interact with, stop acting like a pseudo-templar and you'll probably get some.

[corona]

If you want people to interact with, stop acting like a pseudo-templar and you'll probably get some.

Haha, exactly.

Anyhow, there's a variety of reasons why anyone can be where they choose. Maybe that noble has a project their working on and it involves watching people in that particular tavern, they're researching your filthy habits and lifestyle. That or that templar has been paid to hang out in there.. no telling. There's a reason for everything, whether you're able to see it or not. Just deal with it, sorry if they're cramping your style.. but I'm sure there's times when you cramp theirs. I can say by experiencing it MYSELF that there has been nobility and templars going to the Barrel for ages.. right -NOW- is not the exception, it didn't start yesterday or the day before. It's been happening a long while and as an Allanaki commoner many many times, that's where I've found my PC's employment by these people. And that could be why they're there as well, to higher your ass to be their bitach.  :twisted:
Aaaanyway.. Mansa, I love you, don't change.  :wink:

[Doppelganger]

This really isn't something that needs to be enforced and it isn't something that anyone needs to chastise anyone else OOCly for.  Follow the social documentation and act as your character would act - no matter their rank or station.  You have no ability to know why another character is in any place at any given time - even if they tell you, they could be lying.  If you think something is ICly odd, feel free to deal with it ICly. A noble in a crappy place might well make the locals nervous and edgy and wondering what huge hammer is about to drop on their heads.  However - those same locals certainly would do their best to make the noble feel comfortable and at home - for fear of that very hammer.

When month after month I see the same noble idling in Barrel, I can't wonder about hammer, I consider him a piece of furniture.
When he proposes sikrit meeting with Templar and another noble to be held in Barrel because 'it looks empty today' (I was hidden), I don't know what to think.
When time over time he argues with commoners over wobbly chair next to dirty table, I don't consider it as demand or conflict, yet word 'quarrel' comes to mind.
Role of cheap whore having constant arguments with Bynners over couple of sids can be fun, but why apply for noble position to play it?

Reacting ICly on odd events is good. Too bad though, that assassination and stealing through the guard are not as easy as they realistically should be in slums. A couple of mocking 'think's would don't hurt a noble, thus it encourages him to act the same way against all virtual odds and threats.

If staff is going to be lenient over breach of noble's etiquette for playability issues, I don't care. I just wonder why you keep guidelines if they are not guidelines at all. Am I wrong or changes to http://www.armageddon.org/general/social_mores.html#Socializing are in order?

Again, Armageddon houses greatest roleplayers, who, for all intents and purposes, are able to come up with IC reasons to justify any wicked and kinky action. But when someone acts oddly most of the time, then probably they have chosen a role that's too hard for them.

[ale six]

I don't think the experience ERS stated is true usually. If players are avoiding the Trader's because they're afraid of "pseudo-templar" nobles or of nobles in general, that's a shame. Especially in Allanak, nobility should be MORE approachable than templars. (Either one should be approached carefully, of course.)

There are things that I wish the staff would come down on people harder for. Being a noble who runs around in out-of-style clothing, or slums it at the Gaj and Barrel should land more problems for you than it looks like it does. If the only thing you have to worry about is the social scorn and mockage of the 2-3 other PC nobles who notice you doing it, I think you're getting off WAY WAY too easy. I'd really like to see people snickering at you behind your back, or your NPCs threatening to punish you, or even rumors about you posted on the rumor board. I'm not sure what Naiona meant by enforcement, but I'm all for actions like that being taken to enforce the docs.

Granted, the argument that players don't know the reasons behind things is still true, and there's lots of exceptions to things. House Fale, for instance, probably doesn't care if their nobles go slumming every now and then as long as they don't embarass themselves by Fale standards. I suppose some Tors and other nobles of lower tier Houses probably don't care as much about their social appearance either. But there are probably junior nobles in every single House who DO care what their peers think of them, and would avoid common taverns for places like the Trader's or the Arboretum. As you go up in tier I think the percentage of nobles who would enter the common quarter would get less and less. A noble of a first-tier House entering the Barrel just shouldn't happen often at all.

[bardbard#4]

Here is the solution.  Behold the magnificence that is bardbard#4's thought process.

*drumroll*

Change the code so that you can get between 10-15 sips out of a glass of wine, and 5-10 eats out of a plate of food.  If you feel like sitting in a tavern nursing a glass, nothing kills that mood more than going "sip sip" and your goblet is suddenly empty.  I know that if my glass lasted longer, I'd spend more time in the Trader's interacting with people, and this whole thing would become moot!

[Agent_137]

Hah, it's true.

I cheat my way around that and emote sipping.

<--- twink.

[jmordetsky]

Playing a noble or a Templar can be really boring.

You never see "Two" nobles or Templars RPing in the barrel.

Just one, idling and looking for someone to RP with.

Have a heart mansa, leave them be.

I mean, yea it would be more realistic for them to go and idle in the Trader's alone.

But the new combat change is more realistic, and well, it's not very fun either.

Nobles should get to have fun too even if it means hob nobbing with some elves.

[ale six]

Thing is, longer sips would make the ales in the Barrel last longer too, so... what changes?

I mean I'm all for it, but I don't see how food or combat code (?!) is related to this.

Here's my take:

Are you a...
:arrow: Rinther?
:arrow: Bynner?
:arrow: Miner?
:arrow: Hunter?
:arrow: Dirty scummy mercenary?
... your tavern is: THE GAJ

Are you a...
:arrow: Gemmer?
:arrow: Elf?
:arrow: Half-elf?
:arrow: Northie?
:arrow: Somebody else who'd get their ass kicked in the Gaj?
... your tavern is: THE BARREL

Are you a...
:arrow: Noble?
:arrow: Aide? (including Atrium students)
:arrow: Merchant?
:arrow: House guard? (officers especially)
:arrow: Anybody cool enough to wear silk?
... your tavern is: THE TRADER'S

Simple, right? Of course people can go elsewhere as they please, but I think the above describe the "regular" clientele for the Allanaki bars.

[FightClub]

In a perfect world, no they wouldn't be there, but most make themselves available at these places for recruitment reasons, since most people frequent these locations.

Templars probably come in to check for nobles, or find someone to pick on, simple as that, besides you're a filthy commoner, what right do you have to question where a noble wants to go, they could sleep in your bed and kick you out if they wanted to.

[James de Monet]

3 - The Gladiator and the Gaj Tavern (General Bar)
9 - The Bard's Barrel (Middle-class Commoner Bar)
4 - The Traders Inn (Higher Class Bar/Inn for Merchants and Nobles)

The docs do also make this distinction.  If the Bard's Barrel is the middle of the road, I don't think it would be that uncommon for nobles to pop in now and then.  I doubt they would wish to stay, but that's their call.  Also, while the Trader's is designated for merchants, I think the merchant's clientele has a lot to do with where they take their drinks.  Kadians?  Yeah, the Trader's.  Kuracis?  Dunno.  Could be the Barrel, could be the Gaj.  Salarris?  I'd almost expect to see them in the Gaj.  It's where those who want weapons and armor hang out.  Because, honestly, most merchants sitting in bars aren't there for a drink.  They're working.  Bars are where the PCs are, so bars are where the merchants are.  vNPC merchants are a different story.  They have money, they probably hang out in the Trader's.  Just like PC merchants would if all they wanted was really just a drink.

[Halaster]

I think the newbie spawning spot in Tuluk should be Firestorm instead of the Sanctuary.  It's closer to all the shops.

And it is a little odd that the newbie spawning place in Allanak is the low-class scum bar, while in Tuluk it's the high-class fancypants bar.  Is there a reason for this disparity?

It's really about evolution of the Sanctuary.  Back after Tuluk was blown up by the magickal cataclysm, the Sanctuary was built fairly soon as a common place people could meet and find each other.  The population of Tuluk was low, the people were scattered, so it was named the Sun King's Sanctuary to reflect what it was meant to be - a sanctuary from the despair around them as they rebuilt.  So, at the time, everyone was encouraged to go there.  Over time, it morphed into the upper class bar, and that's where it is today - but the "tradition" of it being a place for everyone has lingered.

[My 2 sids]

What really needs to happen is that the merchants and noble house aides need to start hanging out in Trader's more.  Then the nobles won't be so lonely that their players feel they need to go to the Barrel.

Yep.   :!:  :!:

[bloodfromstone]

In a perfect world, no they wouldn't be there, but most make themselves available at these places for recruitment reasons, since most people frequent these locations.

This is certainly a factor. Going and hanging out at Trader's is a fine idea as a House guard or noble's aide, until you're unable to recruit anybody, have no idea what's going on in the city, and idle most of the time because no one else is present.
A major part of House employees' jobs are hearing what nobles do not and seeing what they do not. It's hard to do that at Trader's.

[mansa]

In a perfect world, no they wouldn't be there, but most make themselves available at these places for recruitment reasons, since most people frequent these locations.

This is certainly a factor. Going and hanging out at Trader's is a fine idea as a House guard or noble's aide, until you're unable to recruit anybody, have no idea what's going on in the city, and idle most of the time because no one else is present.
A major part of House employees' jobs are hearing what nobles do not and seeing what they do not. It's hard to do that at Trader's.

It's hard to do that, because nobody goes there.  The Trader's Inn is supposed to be the center of everything 'going on' for the merchants and nobles of the game.

If you're playing a 'high' role, you're not supposed to care who got into a brawl with whom, or who is stealing from whom, or which bynner is sleeping with which elf.  You're supposed to care about economy and taxes and spice and outright displays of power and brutality and what those stupid tribal tuluki fellows are doing.  The Byn is dirty, you're not supposed to care about them, you're supposed to -use- them.  Same with the merchant houses and all the other commoners.

[Barzalene]

Slight tangential derail.

Autobowing is bad. Or at aleast that's what we've been told, but I think to an extent instabowing has it's place. With nobles and to a lesser extent templars it's a way of at least opening up the interaction between two pc's for whom interaction might be strained and difficult.

Maybe the nobles shouldn't be in the Barrel, and I agree they shouldn't. But being a noble can be boring and an isolated thankless role. So, yes, let's keep the nobles in Traders, but let's find more ways to push interaction between the classes whether positive or negative. It just seems so silly to have an rp game where we are all idling and reading the gdb while rping that we aren't talking to each other.

[Morfeus]

I like to believe everyone around is a cool, great RPer. If I see noble sitting in the Bard's Barrel, I am going to OOCly believe he -has- some reason - some important task, some important something, or his personality (perhaps he simply does not care what other people IG think about it?). If I find out all my inv got cleared by thief, I would presume he really -needed- every each piece or had some other reason to steal that small wooden splint as well. I honestly don't like posts about "how other people should play their roles differently", you never know what is behind such acting - what reasons, what thoughts, what inner reasons. It is their role, not yours. And especially nobles are watched by IMMs who probably would do something in case the noble does something -very wrong-.

And also, I think it is much more fair to react on IC things ICly. I mean, perhaps there is some noble who has very good reason to sit in the Bard's Barrel day and night. Seeing such post he would be most probably annoyed, because he cannot go and write here: "Hey, I have THIS and THAT reason to do it!"

[Barzalene]

And also, I think it is much more fair to react on IC things ICly. I mean, perhaps there is some noble who has very good reason to sit in the Bard's Barrel day and night. Seeing such post he would be most probably annoyed, because he cannot go and write here: "Hey, I have THIS and THAT reason to do it!"

I both agree and disagree with this. I think Morfeus is right.

On the other hand I think that my rp and the way I treat the world has been postively impacted in the long run by posts that are critical. I may not enjoy them. I may not agree with them, but they make me stop and take stock.