Stop slumming, Allanaki Templars and Nobility

[mansa]

The Bard's Barrel is for elves and tuluki people, and lower than junior nobles.

I mean, stand up for yourself!  You're nobility!  You can afford to wear clothes that aren't ragged!  Nobody else in the city can.  So show it off!

I seriously consider it out-of-context for an allanaki noble to be slumming it.  Wouldn't your house smack you upside the head for making the house look bad?

That's my two cents!~

[Sokotra]

The Bard's Barrel is for elves and tuluki people, and lower than junior nobles.

I mean, stand up for yourself!  You're nobility!  You can afford to wear clothes that aren't ragged!  Nobody else in the city can.  So show it off!

I seriously consider it out-of-context for an allanaki noble to be slumming it.  Wouldn't your house smack you upside the head for making the house look bad?

Another good IC reason for me to run in and stab them in the face or torment them with steal attempts.  Thanks Mansa!

[Agent_137]

seriously, the bard's barrel is shit. Just read the description. Elves, peeling paint. right in the middle of the commoner's area. Might as well expect to see a Tor in the Gaj.

[Marauder Moe]

What really needs to happen is that the merchants and noble house aides need to start hanging out in Trader's more.  Then the nobles won't be so lonely that their players feel they need to go to the Barrel.

[Eternal]

Heh, if you don't like Templars in a certain part of the city... tell them so.

Likely, they'll show you out... of the gates.

[corona]

There could very well be a reason for your local templar or noble to be invading your little hole in the common quarter. Sorry, mansa.  :twisted:

[Cyrian20]

There could very well be a reason for your local templar or noble to be invading your little hole in the common quarter. Sorry, mansa.  :twisted:

While I can think of a good ic reason, it does happen a lot and mansa brings up a good point. That said, I say hang out if you want... but make the Barrel owner's see they have higher class people in there and drastically raise the prices. Then people will start hanging out in the Gaj... until the nobles hang out there also  :twisted:

[Ktavialt]

I can understand the nobility, but a templar shouldn't ever be
looked down on for being there.  Being there to "hang out", yes, but
not being there.

Keep in mind that it has been stormy lately, so a templar who finds
his ass in the Barrel once it becomes night may stay there for that
reason.

- Ktavialt

[Agent_137]

Mansa didn't say anything about templars, Eternal was the first one to say it.

[Ktavialt]

Mansa didn't say anything about templars, Eternal was the first one to say it.

Right, there's nothing to see here; please move along.

- Ktavialt

[corona]

Mansa didn't say anything about templars, Eternal was the first one to say it.

I think it was all in the title of the post.  :twisted:

[Agent_137]

nobody reads titles of posts.

[Cyrian20]

nobody reads titles of posts.

Plus Templars are nobility so,

I mean, stand up for yourself! You're nobility!

sort of addresses them.

[Ktavialt]

Mansa didn't say anything about templars, Eternal was the first one to say it.

I think it was all in the title of the post.  :twisted:

Oh yeah, I knew that.  See, I was right.

- Ktavialt

[Mudder]

Well, one of the reasons why I think this might be happening is for the sake of some intereaction with the other players. There is what, 3 or 4 taverns in Nak? There is just as many in Tuluk, but you NEVER, ever see hardly anyone else in the others ones except for the Sanctuary, it just so happens that the Sanctuary is an up-scale tavern. Should we now start saying that everyone not templars are nobles stop living it up and hang out somewhere else? Its all about interaction.

[Red Sunrise]

Can't agree with mansa more. Not all the nobility are guilty of this, though.

I've always felt that if your character wears silks on a regular basis, they're too good to be hanging out in the Barrel. It would be REALLY nice if low-class bars would actually stain your clothing from hanging out in them... maybe then the characters with fancy clothes would hang out elsewhere.

[Jherlen]

Well, one of the reasons why I think this might be happening is for the sake of some intereaction with the other players. There is what, 3 or 4 taverns in Nak? There is just as many in Tuluk, but you NEVER, ever see hardly anyone else in the others ones except for the Sanctuary, it just so happens that the Sanctuary is an up-scale tavern. Should we now start saying that everyone not templars are nobles stop living it up and hang out somewhere else? Its all about interaction.

You can often find a decent amount of people at the Tembo's Tooth in Tuluk, actually. I think Tuluk is getting better about eliminating the "Cheers" environment with everyone at the Sanctuary these days.

Nobles and templars should have the resources to bring people they want to see to them, instead of having to go somewhere just because people are there.

[Sokotra]

Can't agree with mansa more. Not all the nobility are guilty of this, though.

I've always felt that if your character wears silks on a regular basis, they're too good to be hanging out in the Barrel. It would be REALLY nice if low-class bars would actually stain your clothing from hanging out in them... maybe then the characters with fancy clothes would hang out elsewhere.

Heh, sweet idea.  Miss noble prissy-pants probably shouldn't be able to clean a chair well enough to sit down and not get a big-ole greasy stain on her arse... or rest an elbow on the bar without ale or old food soiling her laced sleeve and cockroaches crawling up into her ample bustier.

Especially during busy times of the day/evening... fights should be breaking out and stuff being tossed around so that nobody comes out clean.

[slipshod]

I say you should give these people the benefit of the doubt and assume they have some IC reason to be there you don't know/understand.  Whatever reason they are there, it's an IC reason, and noble/templar players should be good enough to deal with the IC consequences of their actions.

I really hope none of them change what their PC is doing in-character because of this purely OOC request for them to stop.

[Jherlen]

The Bard?s Barrel, though it does feature entertainment and gambling, is owned by foreigners with northern accents, and frequented by elves, criminals and all sorts of other undesirable patrons. While nobles do sometimes attend the Bard?s Barrel, it is usually done as a daring lark, and most are careful to guard themselves and expect congress with the least appetizing of characters. The Barrel stinks, the seats are uncomfortable, and it is filled with commoners - this is not a place a noble of any rank would go to regularly unless they seek to 'slum.' Bear in mind, nobles that frequent the Barrel will likely be mocked by their peers.

That's from the docs, and I think it's worth quoting.

[Lizzie]

I also think it's strange and uncomfortable to see nobles and templars slumming it on a regular basis. I think it should be a rare thing, something people would comment on after they've left. On the Tuluk side you have just the opposite. You have desert elves and wandering nomads hanging out in the "high class" bar. The same bar is across the street from the wagonyard and the stables, so this "high class" bar probably reeks of animal shit. It's also the only bar anywhere near the main gate to the city. So it is very inconvenient for a lot of people to go somewhere else.

It's also really far from the noble and templar quarter, and there's even a bar that's closer but that one isn't high class (though it's bigger and has more interesting NPCs and things to buy). The most interesting bar people could hang out in, IMO, isn't anywhere near anything, except for the nobles and templars quarters, and that's only compared to the other bars in the city.

I can count on one finger how many times I've seen PCs (besides myself) hanging out in the tribal bar in my many visits there. I have -never- seen anyone hang out at the poet's circle hang-out, though I admit I haven't gone there often. And it is so far removed from the rest of the city, that it makes sense that no one would hang out there much. I don't mean for events..I mean just hanging out, relaxing.

So, the high class establishment is where all the low-lifes hang out in Tuluk, and one of the two low-class establishments is where all the high-borns hang out in Allanak. It seems more of a geographical layout issue than anything else. If you put the Barrel next to the stables, you'd see fewer visits from nobles and templars, but still have plenty of low-lifes hanging out there. Put Trader's where the Barrel is now, and the high-borns would find a good central location within the commoner's quarters when they're out on their weekly stroll, that would still attract the odd commoner to interact with. Put the Gaj or something similar closer to the Byn headquarters and you'll get more of the slummier types hanging out, along with merchant house hunters who may or may not be even slummier than slummy Nakki commoners

In Tuluk, move the Sanctuary closer to the gate, scuzz it up a bit. Move the Tooth closer to one gate or another, and add a hunter's stables to attract non-Kuraci riders. Set the Firestorm on fire <g>, make the tribal bar the newbie spawn place for the city, and add a high-class place near the museum so nobles and templars don't have to get cramps in their dainty feet in order to see and be seen by the public.

[Barzalene]

Well, one of the reasons why I think this might be happening is for the sake of some intereaction with the other players. There is what, 3 or 4 taverns in Nak? There is just as many in Tuluk, but you NEVER, ever see hardly anyone else in the others ones except for the Sanctuary, it just so happens that the Sanctuary is an up-scale tavern. Should we now start saying that everyone not templars are nobles stop living it up and hang out somewhere else? Its all about interaction.

The class divide between nobles and commoners takes a very different appearance in Tuluk. It's not a fair comparison.

[Marauder Moe]

I just want to reiterate what I said: don't blame the noble players so much.

Blame is too strong a word, so I'll say that the people who have the power and the responsibility to change this trend are the AIDES AND MERCHANTS.  Also Atrium students.  They're really too high-class for the Barrel as well.  

And don't give me any excuses about drinks being too expensive in Traders.  You don't buy then in the Barrel either. (though some cheaper drinks in Traders to accomodate the aides might be nice)

Once when I was in such a position I tried to get the house aide and merchant playerbase to shift over to Traders by having my character hang out there himself, even if alone for a while.  Gradually some other people caught on and the Inn seemed to be on the verge of having a regular common patronage (and then he died there).  It is possible, you just need to suck it up and solo-RP a little while until people realize that there are commoners there.  Drag your aide friends there too if you can.  Resist the urge to go back to the Barrel when you get bored.  Don't even walk by and see if anyone you know is there.

Once there is an established, regular population of PCs in Traders, the noble's won't feel pressured to go to the Barrel just to get some interaction (or to eavesdrop).


As for Tuluk, well, I haven't played Tuluk much but when I did it seemed odd that the Sanctuary would allow so many elves and dirty, blood-splattered hunters in there all the time.  *shrug*

[Naiona]

The following is my personal opinion and not official policy:

The social standards and norms that each noble house observes may differ from house to house.  Some put a great emphasis on public appearances and behavior of their nobility, while others may appear to care less.  If nobles belong to a house that does notice such things, they could find themselves the objects of jokes among their NPC and VNPC family for frequenting such a place, or worse, passed over for promotions.  However, if their house does not care, it may have no affect at all upon their status (though certainly, other nobles from other houses might find it amusing).

For those who are the employees of noble houses (or who want to be), I would highly reccomend hanging out at the Trader's Inn and encouraging your friends to meet you there.  Even those who hold high level servant or military positions would probably consider any other bar to be slumming.  That Barrel place is filled with northern scum and elves!  You could be assassinated in a place like that and no one would even blink!  A magicker could brush up against you and you'd grow a massive wart in a place where the sun just don't shine!

This really isn't something that needs to be enforced and it isn't something that anyone needs to chastise anyone else OOCly for.  Follow the social documentation and act as your character would act - no matter their rank or station.  You have no ability to know why another character is in any place at any given time - even if they tell you, they could be lying.  If you think something is ICly odd, feel free to deal with it ICly. A noble in a crappy place might well make the locals nervous and edgy and wondering what huge hammer is about to drop on their heads.  However - those same locals certainly would do their best to make the noble feel comfortable and at home - for fear of that very hammer.


(As a side note - it was only a couple of years ago we used to see posts that no one ever used the Bard's Barrel and complaining that too many people were in the Trader's Inn.  These things cycle.)

[Viagra_Kank]

Agree with original post.

[UnderSeven]

When I played a noble I rarely went there (I mean my last noble) and I've also noticed a fair number of them not going there presently.  Actually I don't think this is really even a problem.  Templarate have reason to go just about anywhere, though maybenot hang out there.

What really needs to happen isn't that aides need to hang out in traders, nobles can order their aides around, what really needs to happen is nobles need to take it a step further.  You have highly competative nobles and templars and you have the bards barrel.  Just a little bit of rumor spreading and character defaming and I expect traders will become much more popular.

[Halaster]

This really isn't something that needs to be enforced and it isn't something that anyone needs to chastise anyone else OOCly for.  Follow the social documentation and act as your character would act - no matter their rank or station.

Couldn't say it any better.

[Cuusardo]

I think the newbie spawning spot in Tuluk should be Firestorm instead of the Sanctuary.  It's closer to all the shops.

And it is a little odd that the newbie spawning place in Allanak is the low-class scum bar, while in Tuluk it's the high-class fancypants bar.  Is there a reason for this disparity?

[mansa]

The Sun King's Sanctuary is a bar for all people.  I mean, there's a mul who farts there, and there's strippers and a mime.  I think it's the perfect place to start.

[Cuusardo]

There are also strippers at the Tooth, and they aren't quite as classy.  

[mansa]

Yes, but...

There's a major difference between the nobility in Tuluk and the nobility in Allanak.

For example:

A noble in Tuluk can purchase a drink for a commoner.  The crowd of the tavern would -think- different things about that interaction, compared to a noble in Allanak purchasing a drink for a commoner.

Ideas that the Allanaki society would be thinking are:
- They are sleeping together.
- The noble is using the commoner for something.
- The noble is low class, and an idiot.
- The noble can't afford to pay for someone to do it themselves, and therefore is broke (even though the noble is purchasing the item)

Ideas that the Tuluki society woudl be thinking are:
- The commoner is important in society to be given a favour by the chosen.
- The chosen likes to take charge of things
- The chosen likes to spend coins on people, and therefore is rich.
- The chosen is friends with that commoner.

There is a reason why a 'High Class Only' bar doesn't exist in Tuluk, because the 'High Class Only' noble doesn't exist in Tuluk.  Or, at least, they hide it very very well.  They would certainly not display it outside their estate.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I just want to reiterate what I said: don't blame the noble players so much.

Blame is too strong a word, so I'll say that the people who have the power and the responsibility to change this trend are the AIDES AND MERCHANTS.  Also Atrium students.  They're really too high-class for the Barrel as well.

I have to disagree with you there, the last time I played a reasonably well-off commoner who hung around at the Trader's, the nobles were... mean to me.

Thus robbing my character of any desire to ever enter the Traders.

Nobles, you've dug your own ditch, so get out of the Barrel and go lie in it.

[Forty Winks]

I just want to reiterate what I said: don't blame the noble players so much.

Blame is too strong a word, so I'll say that the people who have the power and the responsibility to change this trend are the AIDES AND MERCHANTS.  Also Atrium students.  They're really too high-class for the Barrel as well.

I have to disagree with you there, the last time I played a reasonably well-off commoner who hung around at the Trader's, the nobles were... mean to me.

Thus robbing my character of any desire to ever enter the Traders.

Nobles, you've dug your own ditch, so get out of the Barrel and go lie in it.

Choosing not to go to the Trader's when ICly that is where your character would be a decision made due to OOC factors. Of course, if your char was treated badly there or had a few bad encounters, they can always head to the Silver Ginka, but as there aren't very many PC patrons there, it all comes back down to "where the parties at". In any case, the Barrel holds its own kind of patrons, and mingling with them when you shouldn't typically means you either have "business" there (like games, partying, and gambling). Most other dealings of a more serious nature would be conducted in a similar such atmosphere such as the silver ginka, traders, or a rented-out backroom (at the "Traders"). The name itself should give some indication of the people who might visit the location.

That's my take on it.
-FW

[EvilRoeSlade]

I wasn't playing a noble, when I was playing one I never went into the Barrel.  A commoner can swing both ways, heh.

Anyway, I don't think that ignoring the game world to hang out in the Barrel is really the solution to the problem of not having anyone for your noble to interact with.  If you want people to interact with, stop acting like a pseudo-templar and you'll probably get some.

[corona]

If you want people to interact with, stop acting like a pseudo-templar and you'll probably get some.

Haha, exactly.

Anyhow, there's a variety of reasons why anyone can be where they choose. Maybe that noble has a project their working on and it involves watching people in that particular tavern, they're researching your filthy habits and lifestyle. That or that templar has been paid to hang out in there.. no telling. There's a reason for everything, whether you're able to see it or not. Just deal with it, sorry if they're cramping your style.. but I'm sure there's times when you cramp theirs. I can say by experiencing it MYSELF that there has been nobility and templars going to the Barrel for ages.. right -NOW- is not the exception, it didn't start yesterday or the day before. It's been happening a long while and as an Allanaki commoner many many times, that's where I've found my PC's employment by these people. And that could be why they're there as well, to higher your ass to be their bitach.  :twisted:
Aaaanyway.. Mansa, I love you, don't change.  :wink:

[Doppelganger]

This really isn't something that needs to be enforced and it isn't something that anyone needs to chastise anyone else OOCly for.  Follow the social documentation and act as your character would act - no matter their rank or station.  You have no ability to know why another character is in any place at any given time - even if they tell you, they could be lying.  If you think something is ICly odd, feel free to deal with it ICly. A noble in a crappy place might well make the locals nervous and edgy and wondering what huge hammer is about to drop on their heads.  However - those same locals certainly would do their best to make the noble feel comfortable and at home - for fear of that very hammer.

When month after month I see the same noble idling in Barrel, I can't wonder about hammer, I consider him a piece of furniture.
When he proposes sikrit meeting with Templar and another noble to be held in Barrel because 'it looks empty today' (I was hidden), I don't know what to think.
When time over time he argues with commoners over wobbly chair next to dirty table, I don't consider it as demand or conflict, yet word 'quarrel' comes to mind.
Role of cheap whore having constant arguments with Bynners over couple of sids can be fun, but why apply for noble position to play it?

Reacting ICly on odd events is good. Too bad though, that assassination and stealing through the guard are not as easy as they realistically should be in slums. A couple of mocking 'think's would don't hurt a noble, thus it encourages him to act the same way against all virtual odds and threats.

If staff is going to be lenient over breach of noble's etiquette for playability issues, I don't care. I just wonder why you keep guidelines if they are not guidelines at all. Am I wrong or changes to http://www.armageddon.org/general/social_mores.html#Socializing are in order?

Again, Armageddon houses greatest roleplayers, who, for all intents and purposes, are able to come up with IC reasons to justify any wicked and kinky action. But when someone acts oddly most of the time, then probably they have chosen a role that's too hard for them.

[ale six]

I don't think the experience ERS stated is true usually. If players are avoiding the Trader's because they're afraid of "pseudo-templar" nobles or of nobles in general, that's a shame. Especially in Allanak, nobility should be MORE approachable than templars. (Either one should be approached carefully, of course.)

There are things that I wish the staff would come down on people harder for. Being a noble who runs around in out-of-style clothing, or slums it at the Gaj and Barrel should land more problems for you than it looks like it does. If the only thing you have to worry about is the social scorn and mockage of the 2-3 other PC nobles who notice you doing it, I think you're getting off WAY WAY too easy. I'd really like to see people snickering at you behind your back, or your NPCs threatening to punish you, or even rumors about you posted on the rumor board. I'm not sure what Naiona meant by enforcement, but I'm all for actions like that being taken to enforce the docs.

Granted, the argument that players don't know the reasons behind things is still true, and there's lots of exceptions to things. House Fale, for instance, probably doesn't care if their nobles go slumming every now and then as long as they don't embarass themselves by Fale standards. I suppose some Tors and other nobles of lower tier Houses probably don't care as much about their social appearance either. But there are probably junior nobles in every single House who DO care what their peers think of them, and would avoid common taverns for places like the Trader's or the Arboretum. As you go up in tier I think the percentage of nobles who would enter the common quarter would get less and less. A noble of a first-tier House entering the Barrel just shouldn't happen often at all.

[bardbard#4]

Here is the solution.  Behold the magnificence that is bardbard#4's thought process.

*drumroll*

Change the code so that you can get between 10-15 sips out of a glass of wine, and 5-10 eats out of a plate of food.  If you feel like sitting in a tavern nursing a glass, nothing kills that mood more than going "sip sip" and your goblet is suddenly empty.  I know that if my glass lasted longer, I'd spend more time in the Trader's interacting with people, and this whole thing would become moot!

[Agent_137]

Hah, it's true.

I cheat my way around that and emote sipping.

<--- twink.

[jmordetsky]

Playing a noble or a Templar can be really boring.

You never see "Two" nobles or Templars RPing in the barrel.

Just one, idling and looking for someone to RP with.

Have a heart mansa, leave them be.

I mean, yea it would be more realistic for them to go and idle in the Trader's alone.

But the new combat change is more realistic, and well, it's not very fun either.

Nobles should get to have fun too even if it means hob nobbing with some elves.

[ale six]

Thing is, longer sips would make the ales in the Barrel last longer too, so... what changes?

I mean I'm all for it, but I don't see how food or combat code (?!) is related to this.

Here's my take:

Are you a...
:arrow: Rinther?
:arrow: Bynner?
:arrow: Miner?
:arrow: Hunter?
:arrow: Dirty scummy mercenary?
... your tavern is: THE GAJ

Are you a...
:arrow: Gemmer?
:arrow: Elf?
:arrow: Half-elf?
:arrow: Northie?
:arrow: Somebody else who'd get their ass kicked in the Gaj?
... your tavern is: THE BARREL

Are you a...
:arrow: Noble?
:arrow: Aide? (including Atrium students)
:arrow: Merchant?
:arrow: House guard? (officers especially)
:arrow: Anybody cool enough to wear silk?
... your tavern is: THE TRADER'S

Simple, right? Of course people can go elsewhere as they please, but I think the above describe the "regular" clientele for the Allanaki bars.

[FightClub]

In a perfect world, no they wouldn't be there, but most make themselves available at these places for recruitment reasons, since most people frequent these locations.

Templars probably come in to check for nobles, or find someone to pick on, simple as that, besides you're a filthy commoner, what right do you have to question where a noble wants to go, they could sleep in your bed and kick you out if they wanted to.

[James de Monet]

3 - The Gladiator and the Gaj Tavern (General Bar)
9 - The Bard's Barrel (Middle-class Commoner Bar)
4 - The Traders Inn (Higher Class Bar/Inn for Merchants and Nobles)

The docs do also make this distinction.  If the Bard's Barrel is the middle of the road, I don't think it would be that uncommon for nobles to pop in now and then.  I doubt they would wish to stay, but that's their call.  Also, while the Trader's is designated for merchants, I think the merchant's clientele has a lot to do with where they take their drinks.  Kadians?  Yeah, the Trader's.  Kuracis?  Dunno.  Could be the Barrel, could be the Gaj.  Salarris?  I'd almost expect to see them in the Gaj.  It's where those who want weapons and armor hang out.  Because, honestly, most merchants sitting in bars aren't there for a drink.  They're working.  Bars are where the PCs are, so bars are where the merchants are.  vNPC merchants are a different story.  They have money, they probably hang out in the Trader's.  Just like PC merchants would if all they wanted was really just a drink.

[Halaster]

I think the newbie spawning spot in Tuluk should be Firestorm instead of the Sanctuary.  It's closer to all the shops.

And it is a little odd that the newbie spawning place in Allanak is the low-class scum bar, while in Tuluk it's the high-class fancypants bar.  Is there a reason for this disparity?

It's really about evolution of the Sanctuary.  Back after Tuluk was blown up by the magickal cataclysm, the Sanctuary was built fairly soon as a common place people could meet and find each other.  The population of Tuluk was low, the people were scattered, so it was named the Sun King's Sanctuary to reflect what it was meant to be - a sanctuary from the despair around them as they rebuilt.  So, at the time, everyone was encouraged to go there.  Over time, it morphed into the upper class bar, and that's where it is today - but the "tradition" of it being a place for everyone has lingered.

[My 2 sids]

What really needs to happen is that the merchants and noble house aides need to start hanging out in Trader's more.  Then the nobles won't be so lonely that their players feel they need to go to the Barrel.

Yep.   :!:  :!:

[bloodfromstone]

In a perfect world, no they wouldn't be there, but most make themselves available at these places for recruitment reasons, since most people frequent these locations.

This is certainly a factor. Going and hanging out at Trader's is a fine idea as a House guard or noble's aide, until you're unable to recruit anybody, have no idea what's going on in the city, and idle most of the time because no one else is present.
A major part of House employees' jobs are hearing what nobles do not and seeing what they do not. It's hard to do that at Trader's.

[mansa]

In a perfect world, no they wouldn't be there, but most make themselves available at these places for recruitment reasons, since most people frequent these locations.

This is certainly a factor. Going and hanging out at Trader's is a fine idea as a House guard or noble's aide, until you're unable to recruit anybody, have no idea what's going on in the city, and idle most of the time because no one else is present.
A major part of House employees' jobs are hearing what nobles do not and seeing what they do not. It's hard to do that at Trader's.

It's hard to do that, because nobody goes there.  The Trader's Inn is supposed to be the center of everything 'going on' for the merchants and nobles of the game.

If you're playing a 'high' role, you're not supposed to care who got into a brawl with whom, or who is stealing from whom, or which bynner is sleeping with which elf.  You're supposed to care about economy and taxes and spice and outright displays of power and brutality and what those stupid tribal tuluki fellows are doing.  The Byn is dirty, you're not supposed to care about them, you're supposed to -use- them.  Same with the merchant houses and all the other commoners.

[Barzalene]

Slight tangential derail.

Autobowing is bad. Or at aleast that's what we've been told, but I think to an extent instabowing has it's place. With nobles and to a lesser extent templars it's a way of at least opening up the interaction between two pc's for whom interaction might be strained and difficult.

Maybe the nobles shouldn't be in the Barrel, and I agree they shouldn't. But being a noble can be boring and an isolated thankless role. So, yes, let's keep the nobles in Traders, but let's find more ways to push interaction between the classes whether positive or negative. It just seems so silly to have an rp game where we are all idling and reading the gdb while rping that we aren't talking to each other.

[Morfeus]

I like to believe everyone around is a cool, great RPer. If I see noble sitting in the Bard's Barrel, I am going to OOCly believe he -has- some reason - some important task, some important something, or his personality (perhaps he simply does not care what other people IG think about it?). If I find out all my inv got cleared by thief, I would presume he really -needed- every each piece or had some other reason to steal that small wooden splint as well. I honestly don't like posts about "how other people should play their roles differently", you never know what is behind such acting - what reasons, what thoughts, what inner reasons. It is their role, not yours. And especially nobles are watched by IMMs who probably would do something in case the noble does something -very wrong-.

And also, I think it is much more fair to react on IC things ICly. I mean, perhaps there is some noble who has very good reason to sit in the Bard's Barrel day and night. Seeing such post he would be most probably annoyed, because he cannot go and write here: "Hey, I have THIS and THAT reason to do it!"

[Barzalene]

And also, I think it is much more fair to react on IC things ICly. I mean, perhaps there is some noble who has very good reason to sit in the Bard's Barrel day and night. Seeing such post he would be most probably annoyed, because he cannot go and write here: "Hey, I have THIS and THAT reason to do it!"

I both agree and disagree with this. I think Morfeus is right.

On the other hand I think that my rp and the way I treat the world has been postively impacted in the long run by posts that are critical. I may not enjoy them. I may not agree with them, but they make me stop and take stock.

[marko]

Personally, I think it is bad form for a noble of any House to go into the Bard's Barrel regularly.  There may be exceptional circumstances where a noble needs to go into the Barrel and there may be situations where a noble purposefully goes there to 'slum.'

Slumming is acceptable - so long as it is done with the proper "discretion" or rather displays of discretion - typically most people know when a noble is slumming but they tend to make an attempt to disguise themselves.

But any noble (especially those of the upper tier) who spends a significant amount of time in the Barrel should expect to be ridiculed by the entire noble class.  That means they aren't just going there for a single purpose it means they are trying to mingle with their lowers.  They are purposefully turning their back on their peers and mingling with the lowers in a base environment.  They are, for all intents and purposes, abandoning their upbringing, the years of being taught that they are better, that they are superior, and that they are noble.

For the past two thousand years Allanaki nobles have purposefully maintained their power through ritualized displays of superiority and arrogance.  Bowing to a noble is one of these accepted forms of enforcing the division - but by going to the Barrel regularly one errodes their own status as a noble and all other noble's status.  Such a noble becomes a danger to the entire noble class.

Those who wish to be the 'rebels' would be ostracized and the House they are with would likely seek to disown or minimalize their own contact with the freak.  

As for the OOC considerations taking precidence - in this situation I do not agree.   I've played a few Allanaki nobles and you do not have to go into the Barrel.  It's not vital, it's not necessary, and it isn't even convienent.  Doing so creates an IC situation that has to be dealt with.  If a noble wishes to make that choice to be ridiculed, laughed at, mocked, and generally considered a fool - then, by all means, make that choice.  Just be aware of the social consequences amongst the peer group for the action.

This really is a situation where if you try to do the OOC thing the IC consequences should bite you.

[FightClub]

A lot of truth in what marko just said, this might be a lot more acceptable in the north, because of the illusions nobles, and templarate put of being on somewhat even grounds with commoners, but in Allanak there is no question.  I'm a bit torn here as to what would be best, to throw them out and say you'll get laughed at for coming here, or to allow it for the sake of recruitment, as long as that is their agenda for going there.  What seems to be certain is that they should not be there to socialize, or enjoy their time.

[Briarfox]

A lot of truth in what marko just said, this might be a lot more acceptable in the north, because of the illusions nobles, and templarate put of being on somewhat even grounds with commoners, but in Allanak there is no question.  I'm a bit torn here as to what would be best, to throw them out and say you'll get laughed at for coming here, or to allow it for the sake of recruitment, as long as that is their agenda for going there.  What seems to be certain is that they should not be there to socialize, or enjoy their time.

There is no illusion to the nobiltity and templarate of Tuluk. They are a 'For the People' sort of culture, a clear opposite of Allanak. One must remember that in History, it was the Commoners of Tuluk who made the Chosen, saved them from Allanak and put them into the Houses that they now run. This is remembered by the nobility, thus their casual nature with the lower castes. While it appears the interactions are friendly and casual the fundamental understanding is that everyone knows nobles are better

I would like to point that it is usually unseemly for a 'Nakki noble to recruit on his/her/it's own. Such things are best left to trusted aides/guards/whatnot.

[Gaare]

I do not think, that's a big deal a noble seen in Bard's Barrel.

It's bad to have strict rules for such small matters.  A noble is visiting Bard's..

Well.. Can be a thousand of explanations.. Maybe, likes company of a certain waiter, maybe likes the owner, maybe there is an entrance for a compound of an underground group, home of a pet-defiler living in a chamber, there are special fights in chambers under the tavern...

Strict rules like "nobles does not visit Bard's"  probably reducing fun of playing one. I think 'naki noble role is one of the (if not most) hardest roles of 'nak. Giving them a little more freedom does not hurt.. Critizing is eaiser, making suggestions is not... after all.

[mansa]

The fun of Armageddon isn't in having your noble be a sorcerer who can fly to Tuluk and lightning bolt Muk Utep's ass.

The fun of Armageddon is playing in a world that is notably different than ours, which has different social levels than ours, which has cause and reaction based on this different universe that we created.

The point of ArmageddonMUD is to play a role within this setting, and -not- just do whatever you want to do because it is fun.  If your merchant wants to do spice all year long, he -should- be fired by his employee.  If your noble sleeps with an elf, they should be repremanded and most probably secretly 'snuffed out' by his noble house for making them look like fools.

I just don't like to walk by the bard's barrel, and see two templars and a noble, with all their entourage, just sitting in there talking about stuff.  That's like the police chief, the CEO of a major company and the mayor of town sitting in McDonalds/disease infested strip joint

[James de Monet]

That's like the police chief, the CEO of a major company and the mayor of town sitting in a disease infested strip joint

What, you don't think that's likely?  Dang you canucks and your reasonable politicians.

[Dan]

I do not think, that's a big deal a noble seen in Bard's Barrel.

It's bad to have strict rules for such small matters.  A noble is visiting Bard's..

Well.. Can be a thousand of explanations.. Maybe, likes company of a certain waiter, maybe likes the owner, maybe there is an entrance for a compound of an underground group, home of a pet-defiler living in a chamber, there are special fights in chambers under the tavern...

Strict rules like "nobles does not visit Bard's"  probably reducing fun of playing one. I think 'naki noble role is one of the (if not most) hardest roles of 'nak. Giving them a little more freedom does not hurt.. Critizing is eaiser, making suggestions is not... after all.

This is under the Social Mores portion of Allanaki Nobility in the documentation. Very unlikely that a noble would openly like the owner of the Bard's Barrel, seeing as they are first foreigners which means they are not citizens, and secondly that that have -northern accents-.

There are other establishments in Allanak, including the Bard?s Barrel and the Gaj and Gladiator Tavern. While both of these are popular with the common, it is rare to see a noble frequenting either establishment ? with the Gaj and Gladiator practically unheard of as a temptation to the noble, except for the most illicit and degenerate purpose. The Bard?s Barrel, though it does feature entertainment and gambling, is owned by foreigners with northern accents, and frequented by elves, criminals and all sorts of other undesirable patrons. While nobles do sometimes attend the Bard?s Barrel, it is usually done as a daring lark, and most are careful to guard themselves and expect congress with the least appetizing of characters. The Barrel stinks, the seats are uncomfortable, and it is filled with commoners - this is not a place a noble of any rank would go to regularly unless they seek to 'slum.' Bear in mind, nobles that frequent the Barrel will likely be mocked by their peers.

One key portion of this quote that stands out to me is where it states that the barrel stinks, the seats are uncomfortable, and it is filled with commoners.

Nobles are very conscious of social class, and the first consideration in their head when meeting someone new will be a calculation of their social standing. Socializing with commoners is an odd thing for a noble, much like talking to a household object or their kank.

Now this is the documentation on the subjects, and with reading this it comes across to me that the players who run these nobles are not doing a terrible job of it. They are simply playing that caste of noble that is looked down upon by all of their NPC and VNPC counterparts, ridiculed behind the scenes, and generally not taken seriously by any of their Houses higher ups. This is most certainly an incorrect statement in practice within the game, but it is how such situations should be played out if one is going to play by the doctrine set forth by the immortals.

[WarriorPoet]

Seems like the perfect opportunity to heap some IC ridicule on that Barrel-idling noble.

"Yeah. I seen him, all fancy in his shitty red silks. Sitting there all snotty. Hah! You know who was at the table next to him? Two fucking halfbreeds, stinking of shit and throwing dice with a rinther that smelt even worse than them! REAL high-class. Har, har!"

-WP only played one character who rocked the Traders, but he rocked it hard.

[Naiona]

This is most certainly an incorrect statement in practice within the game, but it is how such situations should be played out if one is going to play by the doctrine set forth by the immortals.

I would not make assumptions about what NPCs and VNPCs in noble houses (or any clan) are thinking, doing or planning.  In most cases you would be incorrect.

[Dan]

Point taken Naiona, seeing as you wrote what I was quoting from I will definately take your word for it.

[Cuusardo]

The thing I don't understand about Allanak is that socializing with commoners is looked down upon, but it's okay for a noble to sleep with commoners.  Why is it considered bad taste to visit the Bard's Barrel, but not bad taste to father a whole line of bastards?

[Agent_137]

it's SEX.

come on, i mean, freaking SEX.

if there are exceptions ot the rules, it definitely happens in the realm of SEX.

[Eternal]

I think a lot of this is getting into the IC nature of noble roles... so it's becoming tricky.

Sleeping with commoners is fine in 'Nak about like sleeping with sheep in real life.  Everyone knows someone (not them) does it, everyone thinks it's crude, but since noble bastards have no birthright (and half-sheep don't seem to be a problem), it's fine to play with your filthy animals.  Just don't do it in public or try to justify it over a noble relationship.

(Okay, some people have pointed out to me that in European cultures sex with sheep is very, very bad... so replace every instance of sheep above with inflatable dolls if it works better for you!)

Edited because I'm a grammar nazi.

[Cuusardo]

it's SEX.

come on, i mean, freaking SEX.

if there are exceptions ot the rules, it definitely happens in the realm of SEX.

If that is the case, why is the complete opposite true for Tuluki nobles?  It's perfectly okay for them to socialize with commoners all they want, but sleeping with them is bad taste.  I don't get it.  The Tuluki standard makes more sense to me.

[Naiona]

Allanaki nobles have multiple reasons to sleep with commoners.  They have -no- reasons to have equal relationships with commoners.  The distinction is very clear in noble society.

Having a beautiful/handsome/capable/well-spoken concubine is a status symbol in Allanak - not a sign of the noble's love of commoners.  They are tools, servants and sometimes thought of fondly as the noble might care for a favorite pet or favorite slave.  They could be valued highly by their noble, whether for their skill or merely their appearance, but they would never be seen as anywhere near an equal.

Bastards in Allanak are also tools, often highly trusted by noble houses due to their conditioning and training since birth.  But, again - bastard nobles are not of the same social class as nobles and are never thought of as equals.

In Tuluk - noble society is much more based on caste then class.  While the division between the noble and common castes is friendly and much less violent and dangerous then Allanaki society (on the surface, at least), it is much more important to maintain the purity of the noble caste itself, lest the populace forget who is better and who serves whom.  The creation of a bastard noble would cross caste lines and create what would be seen as a halfbreed of sorts - only one whose very existence serves to insult the protectors and chosen of the Sun King himself.

Though Tuluki society seems casual on the surface, it is governed by a series of tabboos, unspoken rules and fear of vanishing and secret questioning.  Far more even then Allanak society, Tuluki citizens tend to at least outwardly follow established norms, lest they simply disappear in the night - no matter their circumstance of birth.

[bardbard#4]

Cuusardo, there's about a billion reasons why Tuluki nobility would socialize and not copulate with their commoners, whereas Allanak would do the opposite.  It's all a matter of historical context, and when that's considered, it makes perfect sense in either case.

An Allanaki noble sleeping with a concubine is a reaffirmation of the noble caste's dominance over the commoner caste.  It's prostitution.  And the thing about prostitution is that people hire whores not only for sex, but also for them to leave once sex is done.  For them, poontang is a commodity to be used up.  It's something that is prevalent in Allanaki society, which is exceedingly decadent by development -- a trait that we can see in many of earth's aristocracies.  It happens behind closed doors and away from public scrutiny (for the most part --  there is of course the 'show-prize' concubine deal that Naiona talks about).  There really is little comparison between private fornication and the public sensibilities of the nobles.  In a very real way, Allanaki nobles are castrated by their own trendy behavior, which is yet another way for them to distance themselves from the commoners (which I suspect they feel the need to do since their bloodlines are so fucking polluted).

In Tuluk, the relationship between commoners and nobles is entirely different.  It is so different, in fact, that you can hardly compare the Tuluki noble caste to the Allanaki nobles.  They serve completely different functions, which again hearkens back to the historical contexts from which they arose.  In Tuluk, the relationship is one of interdependence, and it's one that is heavily monitored by the state.  In terms of public socialization, it's important in Tuluk for the nobles to really understand the commoners.  That's why there aren't really slummy bars at all, not in the same sense as the Allanaki ones.  It's not at all uncommon for a Chosen Noble to show up in the Tooth and hang out with the common folk -- but I caution people to make a class comparison between the Tooth and the Sanc.  The difference is more in the context of flavor rather than class.  Same with the Firestorm and the Ghaati.

[ale six]

I want to throw my own cents in even though other people nailed it:

A noble having a commoner as a concubine (or even more than one) is perfectly acceptable and normal for many nobility. The practice is not seen as crude in Allanak, certainly not on the level of beastiality as Eternal described. In fact, a beautiful concubine clad in silks and fancy jewelry is considered a status symbol for many nobility, if the concubine is well mannered and socially trained. The noble is making a statement, "I am so rich that even my servants and concubines get to wear the bling."

Nobles would probably take great care in choosing which commoners to take as concubines. A noble who went to even the Trader's looking to pick up a hot commoner to sleep with would probably be ridiculed by his peers. Such a practice would look desperate and degenerate. A concubine is probably almost never picked straight off the street. Most likely start out as aides, slaves, or other house servants. They would need to prove that they can be trusted, and that they deserve the great honor of sharing a noble's bed. If they are granted the honor of sleeping with their noble, that noble is probably the only person the concubine will ever get to sleep with until they're put aside. Even having sexual relations doesn't make the relationship an equal one by any means.

So again, the concubines are still viewed as a possession or asset of their noble. They aren't seen as social equals. It would be scandalous if a noble began treating their concubine as an equal, or claimed to be "in love" with them. Concubines are seen as exotic pets, expensive toys... valuable possessions that a noble would guard jealously, but not as people who deserve equal consideration versus other nobles.

And concubines represent just about the highest a commoner could ever go in Allanaki society. There is a huge difference in spending time with your concubine (and usually intimate social relations like those would take place in private), and indiscriminate socialising with commoners in general.

[Marauder Moe]

A bit of a derail, but... would a Tuluki noble make use of a mulish love slave?  In essence, is it sex that's taboo or just interbreeding and sex is forbidden to ensure that there is no interbreeding?

[ale six]

I don't think anyone would make use of a mulish love slave.

I'm pretty sure Tuluki nobility do have sex slaves, but anyone who would want to get naked and cozy up to a mul would be crazy.... oh, wait.

Yes, Tulukis do make use of mulish love slaves. :twisted:

[bardbard#4]

A bit of a derail, but... would a Tuluki noble make use of a mulish love slave?  In essence, is it sex that's taboo or just interbreeding and sex is forbidden to ensure that there is no interbreeding?

My intuition tells me that they -might-, since a slave is not of the commoner caste.  They are property, but I think it would have to pretty much be a mul since muls are sterile.  I've seen pleasure slaves auctioned off by Winrothol in the recent past, which I suppose would support this, but I just don't know.

[jstorrie]

A Tuluki noble would be breaking norms to sleep with any slave, regardless of race or sterility. Not to say that there mightn't be a tea club of Winrothol countesses who love massive half-dwarf sausage, but if they ever got caught, they'd get vanished in a snap.

The difference between Tuluk and Allanak is partly one of convenience. Tuluk has been rebuilding, but for many years since the occupation has been a weak state. The commoners can't be controlled with force and fear of force as well as in Allanak because there simply isn't enough force collected up to do so at the moment.

Moreover, as commoners voluntarily stepped forward to aid and shelter hidden nobles during the occupation, the Tuluki noble and templar classes have much more appreciation for what they can do. In Allanak, nobles see commoners as trash, rabble, and barely people. In Tuluk, nobles see commoners as people - lesser people, but still people.

This again ties into the sex/no sex thing. If you don't see a group as people, coercing them into serving as your sex toys doesn't seem such a big thing. If you see them as a distinct group that has value but must remain distinct, however - like in Tuluk - there can be no mixing of blood.

Mileage may vary. Compassionate nobles, though an oddity, do exist (probably mostly in the PC population, really) who have some respect for commoners as people, in either city. And on the other end of the scale, malicious nobles who seem people of the common blood as nothing but beasts of labour exist in both as well. How those sentiments play out is based on the social norms of each city at large.

[spawnloser]

Having played a Tuluki noble and been involved in the sale of a sex slave, Chosen will sleep with slaves as they are objects and not commoners.

[jstorrie]

They oughtn't to. Technically a noble should not even be getting hanky-panky with a templar in Tuluk. No crossing caste lines, not even with slaves. That's what the documentation says, anyway.

[ale six]

Can you cite sources in the docs that prohibit Chosen/slave sexual relations, jstorrie?

There seems to be plenty of evidence to the contrary.

[Naiona]

The Chosen in Tuluk -do- use pleasure slaves, as do the templar caste.

[jstorrie]

I can't, actually. I looked but don't see it. I could be wrong or the reference may be in noble-only docs that I don't have access to.

There are references to noble xx commoner, but the caste system has been recently retconned and there are also now shunned, artisan, merchant and legion castes. I doubt it's appropriate for a Chosen to start mixing blood with them, so we'll probably need the docs to be clarified a bit.

[ale six]

Shunned/artisans/merchant/legion all equate to subdivisions of the "commoner" caste, at least as I understand it.

[jstorrie]

But commoner is itself a distinct caste which is not any of those things.

[Jherlen]

If you're a general nobody who doesn't have any special skills in artisaning, merchanting, legioning or shunning you're just a normal commoner.

If you do have the special skills, you're still a commoner, just a cooler type of one.

It's like the difference between plain potato chips and barbeque potato chips with french onion dip.

Mmmm, Tuluki commoners...

[Naiona]

The slave caste is seperate and distinct from the commoner caste, where as the other "castes" you have mentioned are actually sub-castes.   Relations are forbidden between the noble and common castes (and all the subcastes defined as common).  This is not a change, it was merely an expansion involving greater detail of the existing documentation.

[jstorrie]

So what's the rule on noble relations with exalted or slave caste members? Are those kosher?

[Aernis]

There were some very good posts by Ale Six and Bardbard#4 in regards to Allanaki nobles and commoners.

Standard disclaimer applies to what follows:  These are my personal opinions and may not be one hundred percent accurate.

In terms of Tuluk Castes and sexuality between:  

Only very specific slaves (those sold as sex toys) are allowed to engaged in sexual activities with the noble caste.  These slaves are sterile.  These slaves aren't really considered humans but rather toys.  Therefore the stigma of inter-caste tomfoolery is bypassed.

A noble who engaged in sexual activity with a _non_ sex slave would probably be dissapeared.  That would be a terrible breach of acceptability.

That leads to what about the noble caste and the templar caste?

This tends to be an interesting question and, should anything ever happen between those castes, is best left without dedicating too much attention.  If something could happen then it'd be done with so much incredible discretion and secrecy that no one would know anyway.  

In other words, this information wouldn't be widely available either way - but the assumption should be that it doesn't happen.

[Pantoufle]

The Bard's Barrel is for elves and tuluki people, and lower than junior nobles.

I'd say that any noble below "junior" is actually a child and, therefore, probably wouldn't even leave the noble quarter at all, let alone enter the Bard's Barrel.

[bardbard#4]

The Bard's Barrel is for elves and tuluki people, and lower than junior nobles.

I'd say that any noble below "junior" is actually a child and, therefore, probably wouldn't even leave the noble quarter at all, let alone enter the Bard's Barrel.

Bastard nobles, I think, is what mansa would have been talking about.

[mansa]

Thank you players!  Allanak is well and fine and thriving!  Thank you!  The taverns are full with the right social levels.  Thanks!

[Agent_137]

YOU ARE GREAT

[Bebop]

As far as Templars I don't think they are "hanging out."

Part of the jobs of the blue robes are to monitor their surroundings and the citizens, as well as make themselves available for the more minimal duties like handing out gems and tokens or possibly hiring.

As far as nobles I would think they would be much more inclined to hang out in the Trader's but might like the company of the barrel from time to time.

As far as more up class places like The Trader's Inn, I think the place should be screened by the Templars in Nak viciously such as no unaffiliated rag tag commoners and any common citizen that isn't there for trade and in proper garb just going there to idle should be ready to be questioned as to their purpose in the more proper establishments.