Armageddon MUD General Discussion Board

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Marauder Moe on August 03, 2015, 01:26:52 PM

Title: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Marauder Moe on August 03, 2015, 01:26:52 PM
And thus began the Zalanthan Market Crash of '27, when everyone flocked to the Nenyuk bank to withdraw all their money before fees could be enacted.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Rathustra on August 03, 2015, 01:38:37 PM
And thus began the Zalanthan Market Crash of '27, when everyone flocked to the Nenyuk bank to withdraw all their money before fees could be enacted.

(http://i.imgur.com/NicQhLa.jpg)
Yes... good...
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: manonfire on August 03, 2015, 01:44:26 PM
Well, it's a red letter day for pickpockets and burglars.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on August 03, 2015, 01:46:57 PM
Well, it's a red letter day for pickpockets and burglars.

I was just thinking this. Though I do believe this is putting the cart before the horse - we need NPC targets for burglars. Need, need, need.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on August 03, 2015, 01:47:13 PM
Well, it's a red letter day for pickpockets and burglars.

(https://h3-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/assets/e4992ff0-dd8e-11e4-995e-12771640ddce.gif?v=1)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Jingo on August 03, 2015, 01:57:34 PM
A new banking tax.

#thanksnyr
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 03, 2015, 02:08:10 PM
Yes...yes...it's finally happening. The banking changes, they are here.

(http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131103190237/disney/images/thumb/0/0a/Loki_evil-grin.jpg/403px-Loki_evil-grin.jpg)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 02:08:48 PM
Just some quick feedback...  20% is CRAZY high for a transaction fee.  We're talking economic insanity.  The Merchant Houses wouldn't use Nenyuk...because in the end, they'd get EVERYTHING.   If you're making a million sid a year, it would cost less to build your own vault and hire an army of mercenaries to guard it, then to deposit it in Nenyuk.
 
If the system is set for private citizens though, I suppose it could sorta work.  It's a fee for protecting their money... and they'll never have the scale to build that vault and hire that army of mercs.   /shrug
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nathvaan on August 03, 2015, 02:12:58 PM
Just some quick feedback...  20% is CRAZY high for a transaction fee.  We're talking economic insanity.  The Merchant Houses wouldn't use Nenyuk...because in the end, they'd get EVERYTHING.

If the system is set for private citizens though, I suppose it could sorta work.  It's a fee for protecting their money...  /shrug

It is my understanding this fee only applies to individual accounts not clan accounts.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 02:14:18 PM

It is my understanding this fee only applies to individual accounts not clan accounts.

Gotcha, that makes a lot more sense. 
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on August 03, 2015, 02:17:31 PM
20% is still crazy high.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Rokal on August 03, 2015, 02:19:00 PM
20% is still crazy high.
This, though its too soon to see how it balances out.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: nauta on August 03, 2015, 02:19:30 PM
I love it.  (Of course, I've tended to play pick pockets.)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on August 03, 2015, 02:21:56 PM
Split this off from RAT since it is a pretty big change that probably deserves its own thread for discussion.

My serious thoughts are that it's nice to see the bank finally behaving as something other than a completely diku stock ooc mechanic for risk free money storage.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 02:21:58 PM
20% is still crazy high.

It is.  But I doubt the code would've been available to implement it in more subtle ways, like having the account balance slowly depreciate over time as a time based fee.

I'd love to see a Nenyuk voucher or writ system be put in place to accompany this.  Getting a sealed scroll or marker that's worth 1000 coins, would be a "service" worthy of paying 20% for...  having them dump a pile of sid on the counter, and having to lug it around...or pay another 20% to re-deposit it doesn't sound fun.

It would be nice to have these fees adjusted based on social status as well.  A noble shouldn't be paying 20% on their money, whereas Joe Grebber the Lesser might.  The whole rich get richer, poor get poorer, kind of system that Zalanthian politics would absolutely reinforce.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on August 03, 2015, 02:25:23 PM
I like the change but 20% is f#$*ing ridiculous. 5% is high, but realistic.

There also needs to be a lot of other support infrastructure in place before we go messing with banks.

Every single class in this game has a way to skill up and make money off NPCs with their main class skills, with the exception of burglars. They NEED a slew of hovels filled with random junk to steal and sell. Pickpockets also need a way higher variety of NPCs and they need to repop inventory between game reboots.

Prohibitive bank fees aimed at draining PC funds or forcing people to carry their sid around is putting the cart before the horse.

Maybe it's "easier" to implement this change but I believe in doing things in the right order, not in "order of easiness".
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 02:26:56 PM
Also, I'd go check your own balances in-game.  My particular balance is not exactly small.... so maybe I'm in "crazy fees" territory on my account?  I dunno.   It does seem extremely high though, and will definitely modify my character's behaviors in game...which was probably the intent of these changes?  I'll weigh in after a month or two and see how the game feels as a result of these tweaks.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Quell on August 03, 2015, 02:27:28 PM
20% is still crazy high.

It is.  But I doubt the code would've been available to implement it in more subtle ways, like having the account balance slowly depreciate over time as a time based fee.

I'd love to see a Nenyuk voucher or writ system be put in place to accompany this.  Getting a sealed scroll or marker that's worth 1000 coins, would be a "service" worthy of paying 20% for...  having them dump a pile of sid on the counter, and having to lug it around...or pay another 20% to re-deposit it doesn't sound fun.

It would be nice to have these fees adjusted based on social status as well.  A noble shouldn't be paying 20% on their money, whereas Joe Grebber the Lesser might.  The whole rich get richer, poor get poorer, kind of system that Zalanthian politics would absolutely reinforce.

Hmmm, but from a meta perspective I really like the thought of nobles starting to carry lots of coins. Think of how much more tempting targets they would make, despite the absurd degree of danger?
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: nauta on August 03, 2015, 02:28:27 PM
Um, I hope this isn't too 'find out IC', but it isn't 20% on all accounts.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on August 03, 2015, 02:29:55 PM
Point stands. It should go something like 1%, 2%, 3%, 4%, 5% (rounded up), not 5%, 10%, 15%, 20% or however it does now.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Jingo on August 03, 2015, 02:30:28 PM
The announcement post suggested it was a progressive fee based on what you have in the bank.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: valeria on August 03, 2015, 02:31:46 PM
My level of care about this change is pretty meh.  I think it's great for low status characters, but leaders having less money to do stuff with makes me much less enthused.  And it sounds like the amounts are 10%, 20%, that's ridiculously high.  If lower bank taxes were or are a clan perk, okay I guess.  Is it going to break the game for me?  No.  But I also don't think it's going to fix the economy.  Overall, not excited.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 03, 2015, 02:32:17 PM
Just some quick feedback...  20% is CRAZY high for a transaction fee.

Of the people online right now, all of them have a lower transaction fee than this because they don't have an account big enough to warrant it.  You are seeing this because you have a larger account.  Note also this is for withdrawals only.

Point stands. It should go something like 1%, 2%, 3%, 4%, 5% (rounded up), not 5%, 10%, 15%, 20% or however it does now.

We might change the gradient in either direction.  We'll see whether this has the desired/expected effect, first.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 02:32:25 PM

Hmmm, but from a meta perspective I really like the thought of nobles starting to carry lots of coins. Think of how much more tempting targets they would make, despite the absurd degree of danger?

But that's the problem, carrying a ton of coins doesn't make any sense!  Coin is super heavy, and that's the last thing a noble would tote around.  WTB tokens/writs worth more, that can be redeemed at the bank (with a fee on the issuing of the token/writ, rather than redemption).
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on August 03, 2015, 02:36:33 PM
Agree that I'm not crazy about the idea of noble/templar characters being taxed in this way.  Though I guess most of them do have large estates they can use as money storage.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: nauta on August 03, 2015, 02:36:53 PM
We might change the gradient in either direction.  We'll see whether this has the desired/expected effect, first.

Out of curiosity, what is the desired/expected effect?  I can guess, but it'd be nice to hear.  (I don't think it was in the announcement - and thanks!  I just get all excited about any change.)

Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on August 03, 2015, 02:37:28 PM
Like I said, I'm for this change. Just not yet. There needed to be other things/fixes implemented first.

Denominations or tokens, improved NPC representation of virtual world for pickpockets/burglars, and oh yeah, an entire economic overhaul.

I could go on for pages about how broken the crafting recipes are and how screwed up the economic prices for everything is.

Implementing bank fees is like slapping a band-aid on a festering wound.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 02:43:06 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% behind these changes, but just not at the rates I'm currently seeing.  

Also, I'd prefer to pay a deposit fee, than a withdrawal fee...  Because lets pretend my account balance is 40000 sid, and I'm in the 20% fee bracket...   in reality, I can only withdraw 32000.  It's misleading.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Kismetic on August 03, 2015, 02:43:31 PM
This is a step in the right direction of balancing this world's economy to match the documentation, I hope.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on August 03, 2015, 02:46:33 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% behind these changes, but just not at the rates I'm currently seeing.  

Also, I'd prefer to pay a deposit fee, than a withdrawal fee.

Definitely agree, it should be a deposit fee (templar notices unusually large deposit; levies fines).
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Kismetic on August 03, 2015, 02:47:41 PM
I'm gonna disagree with that point on the merit that Nenyuk wants you to put money in, and doesn't want you to take it out.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 02:47:52 PM
I'd also hope the staff would permit a one-time withdrawal for PC's that wouldn't have deposited that amount of coin into Nenyuk had there been this level of fees in place.  

I don't think it really matters for me personally, but if I was playing an aspiring independent merchant trying to claw my way up into a minor merchant house, and 20% of my money suddenly evaporated, I think that might be a problem...  especially considering these indie merchants don't exactly have it easy as it is.  Granted, this is only really a one-time problem, as with the fees in place everyone can make these decisions ICly going forward.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 02:49:15 PM
I'm gonna disagree with that point on the merit that Nenyuk wants you to put money in, and doesn't want you to take it out.

But its exactly the same thing.  You lose the money the moment you deposit it, it's just displaying the wrong number of balance available for withdrawal.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Kismetic on August 03, 2015, 02:50:45 PM
I'm gonna disagree with that point on the merit that Nenyuk wants you to put money in, and doesn't want you to take it out.

But its exactly the same thing.  You lose the money the moment you deposit it, it's just displaying the wrong number of balance available for withdrawal.

It's not the same thing, at all.  

Nenyuk at deposit:  "*smiley gladhand*  Of course we'll keep your money safe!"

Nenyuk at withdrawal:  "Ah, but safety comes at a cost!"

I mean if the entire freakin' world knows, I see why you'd think it's the same thing, but it's really not for anybody who's never encountered Nenyuk.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 02:52:47 PM
It just means you have to constantly do math to determine how much actual coin you have.  It's annoying, not immersive.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 03, 2015, 02:53:09 PM
We might change the gradient in either direction.  We'll see whether this has the desired/expected effect, first.

Out of curiosity, what is the desired/expected effect?  I can guess, but it'd be nice to hear.  (I don't think it was in the announcement - and thanks!  I just get all excited about any change.)

Creating an additional place for a money sink.  

Before today, banks were completely safe places to keep money for free.  Now you can keep that money there for free, but taking it out will cost you.  If having more money is important than having safe (but a smaller amount of) money, the character may choose to keep the money around rather than in a bank account--meaning that now the money is vulnerable for theft.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Kismetic on August 03, 2015, 02:55:14 PM
It just means you have to constantly do math to determine how much actual coin you have.  It's annoying, not immersive.

Well, maybe a convenience could be added when displaying with the 'balance' command.

You have 'x' coins, accounting for your current withdrawal rate of x%.  I mean, I don't wanna shit on Nathvaan's Cheerios, he did a cool thing.  But you could ask.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 03, 2015, 02:55:21 PM
We might change the gradient in either direction.  We'll see whether this has the desired/expected effect, first.

Out of curiosity, what is the desired/expected effect?  I can guess, but it'd be nice to hear.  (I don't think it was in the announcement - and thanks!  I just get all excited about any change.)

Creating an additional place for a money sink.  

Before today, banks were completely safe places to keep money for free.  Now you can keep that money there for free, but taking it out will cost you.  If having more money is important than having safe (but a smaller amount of) money, the character may choose to keep the money around rather than in a bank account--meaning that now the money is vulnerable for theft.

Get ready to see more of this.

(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/4200059/tyrone-biggums-stealing-o.gif)

Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on August 03, 2015, 02:56:29 PM
What's the 'desired effect' that Staff is shooting for?

Eh answered above.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 02:58:09 PM

You have 'x' coins, accounting for your current withdrawal rate of x%.  I mean, I don't wanna shit on Nathvaan's Cheerios, he did a cool thing.  But you could ask.

Yeah don't get me wrong, I really like this, and it's awesome that code was added to do it.  Great job coders, you're awesome!   Just debating the tuning of the rates, and the way account balances are displayed requiring math skillz that most Zalanthians probably don't have :p
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 03, 2015, 02:59:52 PM
The rates are designed to not be a "slight annoyance", but a serious factor to take into consideration in terms of where you are keeping your money and how you are handling keeping it safe.

5% isn't enough to make me care. 25% is enough to make me start making decisions about where/how I plan to do things in regards to what I want to do to make sure my money is not only safe, but also not being basically stolen by Nenyuk.

I think the rates are fine.

Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Kismetic on August 03, 2015, 02:59:57 PM

You have 'x' coins, accounting for your current withdrawal rate of x%.  I mean, I don't wanna shit on Nathvaan's Cheerios, he did a cool thing.  But you could ask.

Yeah don't get me wrong, I really like this, and it's awesome that code was added to do it.  Great job coders, you're awesome!   Just debating the tuning of the rates, and the way account balances are displayed requiring math skillz that most Zalanthians probably don't have :p

Yeah, I can totally relate.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nathvaan on August 03, 2015, 03:00:41 PM
It just means you have to constantly do math to determine how much actual coin you have.  It's annoying, not immersive.

Well, maybe a convenience could be added when displaying with the 'balance' command.

You have 'x' coins, accounting for your current withdrawal rate of x%.  I mean, I don't wanna shit on Nathvaan's Cheerios, he did a cool thing.  But you could ask.

First, I wondered what was in my cheerios!  Though it's not my change, sorry to say.

Second, it does the math for you.  You simply withdraw the amount you want and the additional amount is deducted as well.  The agent lets you know the amount as well.

Code: [Select]
>The Nenyuki Agent tells you, '...and another 100 coins out of your account for my time.'
The Nenyuki Agent tells you, 'You now have 900 coins in your account.'
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Majikal on August 03, 2015, 03:03:21 PM
Wasn't there a thread not all that long ago talking about how indie players stack tons of coin and got nothing to spend it on, now they drop a tax and people are complaining about high taxes. You can't win!


I dig the change 100%. Don't use nenyuk, stack thousands of coins on your person, in your home to save yourself from a meager tax... then nasty people shiv you and get paid.

OR

Pay the tax, enjoy your coin being in safety, nenyuk continues to dominate, you walk around not jingling so much.


I dig this addition.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on August 03, 2015, 03:06:27 PM
People keep forgetting how this is going to impact, well, everything. We need denominations or tokens because coins weigh a fuckton. We need NPC burglary targets because it's unrealistic that everyone is going to get robbed blind because they're the only damn target in sight for all those broke-ass burglars. We need, well, a lot of things.

Everything costs so much that if you're walking around with less than 1k you're constantly running to the bank. But money is freaking heavy.

This primarily impacts city-bound characters; rangers or those who can otherwise sustain themselves without money will continue happily bopping along.

Yes, the percentages look absolutely ridiculous but that's not the biggest problem I have with this.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: solera on August 03, 2015, 03:07:31 PM
Room weight limits  ;D
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 03, 2015, 03:10:05 PM
I don't think it really matters for me personally, but if I was playing an aspiring independent merchant trying to claw my way up into a minor merchant house, and 20% of my money suddenly evaporated, I think that might be a problem...  especially considering these indie merchants don't exactly have it easy as it is.  Granted, this is only really a one-time problem, as with the fees in place everyone can make these decisions ICly going forward.

Another note, in case it is not clear, the fee is based on your account size, but the fee is x % of the withdrawal, not x% of the account.

If the rate is 20% on your account of (let's say) 30,000 coins, then:

Taking out 1000 coins means you are levied a fee of 200 coins.
Taking out 5k?  You are levied a fee of 1000 coins.
Taking out 30k?  You are levied a fee of 6000 coins and your account is zeroed out, leaving you with 24k coins in hand.

Yes, if you are taking out all of your coin at once, you are losing 20% of it at that level.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 03, 2015, 03:13:11 PM
People keep forgetting how this is going to impact, well, everything. We need denominations or tokens because coins weigh a fuckton. We need NPC burglary targets because it's unrealistic that everyone is going to get robbed blind because they're the only damn target in sight for all those broke-ass burglars. We need, well, a lot of things.

Everything costs so much that if you're walking around with less than 1k you're constantly running to the bank. But money is freaking heavy.

This primarily impacts city-bound characters; rangers or those who can otherwise sustain themselves without money will continue happily bopping along.

Yes, the percentages look absolutely ridiculous but that's not the biggest problem I have with this.

NPC burglary targets aren't going to keep burglars from robbing the PCs who actually have stuff worth stealing. They will just rob the NPCs AND the PCs. It will mean more money for burglars, not less theft of PC things.

The "scorched earth steal everything in sight" poorly played burglars are still going to do exactly that.

The well played "only take things worth taking that are realistic to take" burglars are still going to target the PCs because they are in fact played well and as such will target PCs with things actually worth taking.

I'm not sure how this is tied into the banking code change anyways, unless the idea is that burglars are going to rob NPCs instead of steal the money people are now maybe going to keep in their apartments...(which they won't, they will just take the money too).

I do like the idea of tokens/denominations to reduce weight. I don't think weight of money should be the determining factor. If you WANT to carry 50,000 coins on you and think that's actually a good idea...you should be able to....you shouldn't be limited because your money is heavy....I want to rob the guy who does that anyways.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: lostinspace on August 03, 2015, 03:15:14 PM
Well, I won't be using banks so much anymore. If that was the goal, mission accomplished!
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on August 03, 2015, 03:17:15 PM
But where are thieves  going to keep ill gotten gains.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 03, 2015, 03:18:31 PM
But where are thieves  going to keep ill gotten gains.

....The same place everyone else is. On them or in their apartments/safe havens/in Nenyuk.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Kismetic on August 03, 2015, 03:20:06 PM
I think we can all agree that Nenyuk are the true thieves.  I would imagine a PC Nenyuki would last all of a day before getting shanked by the whiteknight mob.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Ath on August 03, 2015, 03:22:33 PM
Welcome to Harshageddon.  Where Nenyuk can charge whatever they like because well... they can.  I don't think you guys realize that the portion of people that have tons of money is small, and of those people that have tons of money, most of them rarely use it.  Realistically Nenyuk would charge for their services... now that is able to happen.  I'm looking forward to seeing how others take these changes into account.

Nothing in Zalanthas should be safe or fair, nor should it ever be.  Murder, Corruption, & Betrayal.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Is Friday on August 03, 2015, 03:22:45 PM
Meh. I dislike it because the money weight in this game is stupid. Anything worth buying for a middle tier PC is 300-500 sid.

IMO, this just impacts the game negatively.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on August 03, 2015, 03:23:51 PM
>put 5000 coins bag
>bury bag
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: aeglaeca on August 03, 2015, 03:25:17 PM
My level of care about this change is pretty meh.  I think it's great for low status characters, but leaders having less money to do stuff with makes me much less enthused.  And it sounds like the amounts are 10%, 20%, that's ridiculously high.  If lower bank taxes were or are a clan perk, okay I guess.  Is it going to break the game for me?  No.  But I also don't think it's going to fix the economy.  Overall, not excited.

This. It seems like stretching coin is more important for these types of players. Can some sort of flat fee or reduced % be considered for nobility and maybe Important Clan Leaders (if it hasn't been already)?

I don't have a great handle on leadership spending, but a fair portion of my previous character's coin went toward clan supplies. I assume the economic problem this is targeted at is Indie Ranger with 20k in the bank rather than Fancy Schmancy Allanak Noble needing to fund the latest big game hunt or w/e.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: The Silence of the Erdlus on August 03, 2015, 03:25:55 PM
>put 5000 coins bag
>bury bag

Then in most logical rooms to bury a bag, the bag disappears because the game resets.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 03, 2015, 03:26:03 PM
Coding denominations is probably a major pain in the ass.

I would imagine (I have no real idea) that reducing the weight of the "coin item" in game would be much easier.

Have we looked at possibly reducing the weight of money as it stands to go along with this change so that people actually CAN carry large amounts on them if they decide to and think that's a good idea?

I like the idea of the "tax" making people decide where they keep their money. I don't like the idea of someone saying, "Well damn, this money is so HEAVY I have to put it Nenyuk because I have no other options.". One of those is awesome. The other is a tad lame.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Kismetic on August 03, 2015, 03:27:07 PM
Meh. I dislike it because the money weight in this game is stupid. Anything worth buying for a middle tier PC is 300-500 sid.

IMO, this just impacts the game negatively.

I think you missed the conversation about scaling?  This doesn't affect middle tier PCs so drastically unless you're hoarding wealth.  Really, this affects indie merchants the most.  This is the first time I've been sorely tempted to play a merchant.  Hardmode is best mode, suckers.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 03, 2015, 03:28:11 PM
I don't have a great handle on leadership spending, but a fair portion of my previous character's coin went toward clan supplies.

Clan bank accounts exist for a reason--now there's a really good one for them/bank account access to those things.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Lizzie on August 03, 2015, 03:28:57 PM
Nobles and templars will be "almost" immune to this, because they have compounds that the average maxed-out burglar can't just walk into. They can deposit 100% of their stipend in a trunk in their bedroom in their estate in their compound, and take 500 sids with them when they leave (or however much they plan on spending). The reason I say "almost" immune is that they now have to get from their stash of sids to the Kadian shop, which is no longer 3 rooms away.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 03, 2015, 03:30:37 PM
Nobles and templars will be "almost" immune to this, because they have compounds that the average maxed-out burglar can't just walk into. They can deposit 100% of their stipend in a trunk in their bedroom in their estate in their compound, and take 500 sids with them when they leave (or however much they plan on spending). The reason I say "almost" immune is that they now have to get from their stash of sids to the Kadian shop, which is no longer 3 rooms away.


MFW I once followed a noble into their private quarters inside of their compound with one of my stealthies. Oh the opportunities this would have presented for me back then.  ;D
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: aeglaeca on August 03, 2015, 03:32:34 PM
I don't have a great handle on leadership spending, but a fair portion of my previous character's coin went toward clan supplies.

Clan bank accounts exist for a reason--now there's a really good one for them/bank account access to those things.

Oh, I was actually told not to spend clan account coin on the supplies in question for what were ICly justified reasons (that also caused some IC and OOC inconvenience, hence it coming out of my PC's purse instead).

I am also sort of under the impression that (for example) if a noble wants to hire the Byn for a generic contract that the coin needs to come out of their personal stipend rather than clan accounts and that clan accounts are reserved for... (actually I don't know what they're reserved for?) Presumably large scale efforts supported by the whole house? Idk.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on August 03, 2015, 03:34:20 PM
Hold on a moment while I start setting up a private bank for my minions and abuse clan bank access ;).

Is this a recon that has always existed  or a new thing we can react to?
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Kismetic on August 03, 2015, 03:40:04 PM
So, I'm following some of the concerns about leader PCs, nobles and GMH in specific, who can't use clan accounts to conduct their projects.  Is this an oversight, or?
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 03:40:45 PM


Oh, I was actually told not to spend clan account coin...

Ditto.  I've never used clan accounts for anything but depositing coin that my character wasn't supposed to be able to keep.  It was a one-way deposit sort of thing.

I assume that's going to change now?  Otherwise the staff wouldn't be mentioning this as some kind of workaround?
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Malken on August 03, 2015, 03:41:07 PM
indie ranger with 20k isn't going to care one bit, that's like just an extra five minutes of foraging or selling crap to make up for the new fees.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Is Friday on August 03, 2015, 03:41:42 PM
Every time I've played a leader it required an Act of Nyr to allow my PC to use the clan account. Otherwise, and more specifically for nobles, it was 100% stipend for plots.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 03:42:13 PM
indie ranger with 20k isn't going to care one bit, that's like just an extra five minutes of foraging or selling crap to make up for the new fees.

No indie ranger makes 4000 in 5 minutes.  Replace that with 5+ hours, and maybe you're on to something.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 03, 2015, 03:43:41 PM
I would imagine that noble/Templar/GHM family member's personal accounts would get relief as well in some regard.

I wouldn't mind House employees on the commoner level also getting a reduced tax rate, or possibly no tax rate.

We are always talking about how joining a House doesn't have enough perks as opposed to being independent. This certainly could be one.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on August 03, 2015, 03:46:02 PM
Hey hey!

Code put in based on discussion!  Woot!

Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 03, 2015, 03:48:56 PM
So, I'm following some of the concerns about leader PCs, nobles and GMH in specific, who can't use clan accounts to conduct their projects.  Is this an oversight, or?

Depends on the project.

You should request permission to use clan funds in a clan account if you are a banker/able to access that account.  It is not a slush fund to be used for your pet projects.  Best course of action:  work on pet projects that are in the clan's best interest, and convince your superiors that yes, the clan should really be doing something in that direction.  If you are unsuccessful in convincing, take your pick for why (you will generally get an answer for why, as well).  Maybe the reason isn't sound and you did a bad job explaining it.  Maybe your superior hates your PC.  Maybe it isn't actually something the clan would be interested in doing. 

When in doubt, blame Nyr.  I contributed nothing to this change except to post about it and add some documentation for it.  :)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Quell on August 03, 2015, 03:49:07 PM
But where are thieves  going to keep ill gotten gains.

The fun thing you realize after playing a thief for a while is that everyone is a storage space for your coins.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 03:53:22 PM
Well, yet another big reason to prioritize strength over any other stat for an indie :)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Kismetic on August 03, 2015, 03:58:21 PM
So, I'm following some of the concerns about leader PCs, nobles and GMH in specific, who can't use clan accounts to conduct their projects.  Is this an oversight, or?

Depends on the project.

You should request permission to use clan funds in a clan account if you are a banker/able to access that account.  It is not a slush fund to be used for your pet projects.  Best course of action:  work on pet projects that are in the clan's best interest, and convince your superiors that yes, the clan should really be doing something in that direction.  If you are unsuccessful in convincing, take your pick for why (you will generally get an answer for why, as well).  Maybe the reason isn't sound and you did a bad job explaining it.  Maybe your superior hates your PC.  Maybe it isn't actually something the clan would be interested in doing. 

When in doubt, blame Nyr.  I contributed nothing to this change except to post about it and add some documentation for it.  :)

Well, I suppose you could look at this as encouraging nobles to be more sensible with their projects, but the world, by my thinking, sort of runs on the trickle-down of these "damned fool idealistic crusades" that nobles and GMHs dream up.  It'll be interesting to see how it pans out, at least.

And it's all your fault, and you can take that to the bank.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Cabooze on August 03, 2015, 03:59:18 PM
indie ranger with 20k isn't going to care one bit, that's like just an extra five minutes of foraging or selling crap to make up for the new fees.

No indie ranger makes 4000 in 5 minutes.  Replace that with 5+ hours, and maybe you're on to something.

Or can they?
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: aeglaeca on August 03, 2015, 03:59:35 PM
It is not a slush fund to be used for your pet projects. 

That is absolutely fine and completely understandable, but in that case, punishing these types of leadership positions for having pet projects with high withdrawal fees is problematic. Pet projects very probably account for things leadership PCs can get done with minimal immortal support. I think other parts of the GDB have alluded to some frustration in certain types of leadership positions, particularly nobles, because there is a lot of red tape and back and forth behind the scenes for getting stuff done.

It seems a little backwards to tack such high fees onto those characters expected to drive RP in part through spending coin, who probably don't have any problems spending their coin as is. I do definitely understand there are IC workarounds, but I also think it would be pretty justifiable for nobility and the like to have reduced fees.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Kismetic on August 03, 2015, 04:01:35 PM
Maybe the easiest solution is to just raise stipends 15-25%.  I think that's been discussed before.

I want to add that I don't think GMHs are as much concerned on this front.  My one GMH Agent had spent well over a hundred large in his RL year and a half career, had many larges in assets and personal possessions just laying around that could be liquidated, and still had thirty large in the bank.  And this is accounting for the fact that I often just padded the clan account with my own money to make him look more successful than the competition.  Demonstrating his massive affluence was part of his interaction with the world.  I really, really don't think GMHs will suffer, but someone is free to correct me if I'm wrong.

This mostly hurts the poor nobles who, lol, are really much poorer than they should be.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Mordiggian on August 03, 2015, 04:03:52 PM
Stick some coins under your mattress. Make a PC that runs a shady money lending business on the side with reduced fees. Hire the Byn to escort your box filled with the 20,000 coins your spending on that dope new hat to the merchant estate. Start a gang of criminals to prey upon people transporting large sums of money for important transactions.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 03, 2015, 04:11:43 PM
Well, I suppose you could look at this as encouraging nobles to be more sensible with their projects

You can still have insensible projects, you just wouldn't have the House backing you specifically with that coin.  If you play a noble with kooky ideas that don't jive with the House, you can be sure to support the House in other ventures as much as they need you to so that they'll direct some kind of reward your way. 

This is also only the first step of a larger set of comprehensive changes we'd like to make.  This was easier to accomplish more quickly, so it is first.  (Sorry, won't be speaking on the rest until it is in place!)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Is Friday on August 03, 2015, 04:12:41 PM
It is not a slush fund to be used for your pet projects. 

That is absolutely fine and completely understandable, but in that case, punishing these types of leadership positions for having pet projects with high withdrawal fees is problematic. Pet projects very probably account for things leadership PCs can get done with minimal immortal support. I think other parts of the GDB have alluded to some frustration in certain types of leadership positions, particularly nobles, because there is a lot of red tape and back and forth behind the scenes for getting stuff done.

It seems a little backwards to tack such high fees onto those characters expected to drive RP in part through spending coin, who probably don't have any problems spending their coin as is. I do definitely understand there are IC workarounds, but I also think it would be pretty justifiable for nobility and the like to have reduced fees.
Pretty much my thoughts on it.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 03, 2015, 04:13:32 PM
This is also only the first step of a larger set of comprehensive changes we'd like to make.  This was easier to accomplish more quickly, so it is first. 

(http://new2.fjcdn.com/comments/5153762+_2d89ecba2859d9aa31a307f8bfcd7a6a.jpg)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: AdamBlue on August 03, 2015, 04:25:17 PM
[complain]
Terrible change! Horrible change. Completely lame attempt to make money have more value!
[/complain]
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on August 03, 2015, 04:28:05 PM
It is not a slush fund to be used for your pet projects.  

That is absolutely fine and completely understandable, but in that case, punishing these types of leadership positions for having pet projects with high withdrawal fees is problematic. Pet projects very probably account for things leadership PCs can get done with minimal immortal support. I think other parts of the GDB have alluded to some frustration in certain types of leadership positions, particularly nobles, because there is a lot of red tape and back and forth behind the scenes for getting stuff done.

It seems a little backwards to tack such high fees onto those characters expected to drive RP in part through spending coin, who probably don't have any problems spending their coin as is. I do definitely understand there are IC workarounds, but I also think it would be pretty justifiable for nobility and the like to have reduced fees.

Actually, this arguably affects nobles the least since they have an entire security force and personal quarters locked away.  Everyone else has to worry about a break in.  Break ins on a noble are very rare.  You walk to the estate, instead of to the bank, is really the big change here, and your coin -is- available for a heist...which is unlikely to happen, but possible.  The mere possibility adds to the game, not detracts.

And while I do empathize with nobles...the 'amount' of coin is not their problem, in my opinion, but the value of the things they can do with it.  The best I could ever come up with was ordering awesome things for my underlings and getting them things -they- wanted in reward.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: James de Monet on August 03, 2015, 04:30:13 PM
MCB Club:
Latest Member: Nenyuk

Heh, I love this change.  The rates do sound steep (haven't checked for my PC yet), but I think they have to be to make an actual change in the way people play.  I wonder if this will make House Nenyuk PCs more viable (which would be awesome, if it could work).

I do kinda think it would have been good to give people a day or two to set their accounts as desired before this went into effect, but that's for the sake of playability and sticker shock, not for the sake of realism.  I think it's perfectly realistic as is.

Quote
Darth Nenyuk: Twenty percent of your coins must never again leave this facility.

Amos: That was never a condition of our arrangement, nor was giving Malik to His Arm!

Darth Nenyuk: (stabbing a finger in his chest) I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 03, 2015, 04:30:37 PM
This mostly hurts the poor nobles who, lol, are really much poorer than they should be.

How rich should they be, then?  Just curious, because there were changes made to this a year and a half ago.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: aeglaeca on August 03, 2015, 04:33:05 PM
Maybe the easiest solution is to just raise stipends 15-25%.  I think that's been discussed before.
[...]
This mostly hurts the poor nobles who, lol, are really much poorer than they should be.

This might also work. Just, basically, if your noble is hiring the Byn for a 5k contract and you're getting 2k a RL week, at 20% fees suddenly you'll need a month instead of 3 weeks to be able to pay for it, and that's assuming you make your paydays religiously.

Actually, this arguably affects nobles the least since they have an entire security force and personal quarters locked away.  Everyone else has to worry about a break in.  Break ins on a noble are very rare.  You walk to the estate, instead of to the bank, is really the big change here, and your coin -is- available for a heist...which is unlikely to happen, but possible.  The mere possibility adds to the game, not detracts.

And while I do empathize with nobles...the 'amount' of coin is not their problem, in my opinion, but the value of the things they can do with it.  The best I could ever come up with was ordering awesome things for my underlings and getting them things -they- wanted in reward.

I did mention IC workarounds, which would pretty much be that, but if you're a noble isn't part of your prestige being able to go to the bank? The bank is a relatively central location, after all, where noble estates are decidedly not, with the additional note that the people you're paying are probably going to want to be in the bank so they can immediately deposit their filthy lucre.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 03, 2015, 04:33:08 PM
It is not a slush fund to be used for your pet projects.  

That is absolutely fine and completely understandable, but in that case, punishing these types of leadership positions for having pet projects with high withdrawal fees is problematic. Pet projects very probably account for things leadership PCs can get done with minimal immortal support. I think other parts of the GDB have alluded to some frustration in certain types of leadership positions, particularly nobles, because there is a lot of red tape and back and forth behind the scenes for getting stuff done.

It seems a little backwards to tack such high fees onto those characters expected to drive RP in part through spending coin, who probably don't have any problems spending their coin as is. I do definitely understand there are IC workarounds, but I also think it would be pretty justifiable for nobility and the like to have reduced fees.

Actually, this arguably affects nobles the least since they have an entire security force and personal quarters locked away.  Everyone else has to worry about a break in.  Break ins on a noble are very rare.  You walk to the estate, instead of to the bank, is really the big change here, and your coin -is- available for a heist...which is unlikely to happen, but possible.  The mere possibility adds to the game, not detracts.

And while I do empathize with nobles...the 'amount' of coin is not their problem, in my opinion, but the value of the things they can do with it.  The best I could ever come up with was ordering awesome things for my underlings and getting them things -they- wanted in reward.

^^^

Dis mane no waddup.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 04:36:05 PM

How rich should they be, then?  Just curious, because there were changes made to this a year and a half ago.


Honestly, I don't think the nobles are poor, I think that independent earning power is high merely because they're task based economies.  If performing a certain coded action takes 5 minutes, and earns you 50 coins, that's 600 coins an hour.  In 10 hours, you've got yourself a noble-sized stipend in less than one IC week.  

It's tough to balance though, because having that indie make 600 coins after an hour of play seems totally reasonable from an OOC playability standpoint...I mean we don't want people having to grind for countless hours just to get enough to buy food/water, that doesn't add to the roleplay experience.  But the same indie who plays a lot of hours can become crazy rich...  Capping their income out could help, and creating caps makes sense from an OOC standpoint, but makes no sense from an IC standpoint...  tough nut to crack.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 03, 2015, 04:38:05 PM

How rich should they be, then?  Just curious, because there were changes made to this a year and a half ago.


Honestly, I don't think the nobles are poor, I think that independent earning power is high merely because they're task based economies.  If performing a certain coded action takes 5 minutes, and earns you 50 coins, that's 600 coins an hour.  In 10 hours, you've got yourself a noble-sized stipend in less than one IC week.  

It's tough to balance though, because having that indie make 600 coins after an hour of play seems totally reasonable from an OOC playability standpoint...I mean we don't want people having to grind for countless hours just to get enough to buy food/water, that doesn't add to the roleplay experience.  

If people actually do this, they aren't the type of people I have ever played with....and they aren't the type of people who have ever done anything with that money worth mentioning to make me even remember they existed.

I'm fine with Amos the Spam Money Maker doing that, because really....those aren't the types of people who are worth a shit who will ever really affect anything anyways. (To be blunt and maybe a little mean about it towards Amos.)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Kismetic on August 03, 2015, 04:42:38 PM
This mostly hurts the poor nobles who, lol, are really much poorer than they should be.

How rich should they be, then?  Just curious, because there were changes made to this a year and a half ago.

You've got me, there.   Since I've never played a House noble.  I would imagine ...  not as wealthy as high level GMH, but comparatively so?  As their gobs of political currency is, itself, priceless.  I'm sure they're not suffering.   :P


Actually, this arguably affects nobles the least ...

Hey, if you ever need a counter-argument, and RGS isn't available, well, you know.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: James de Monet on August 03, 2015, 04:46:16 PM
I'm fine with Amos the Spam Money Maker doing that, because really....those aren't the types of people who are worth a shit who will ever really affect anything anyways.

You mean they won't do anything except vastly affect how much the Byn can charge for their time, offset what everyone thinks a reasonable monthly income is, and change the standards of expected luxury for a "successful" character?
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Kismetic on August 03, 2015, 04:47:54 PM
Pfft, that wasn't even subtle.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 03, 2015, 04:48:34 PM
I'm fine with Amos the Spam Money Maker doing that, because really....those aren't the types of people who are worth a shit who will ever really affect anything anyways.

You mean they won't do anything except vastly affect how much the Byn can charge for their time, offset what everyone thinks a reasonable monthly income is, and change the standards of expected luxury for a "successful" character?

What are they doing with all of that money that is changing all of that?

They have a bunch of money in their bank account that they admittedly don't have any outlet to spend it on.

The fact they have a number on an account does nothing to the global economy or the perception of wealth in any way in my opinion.

They can tavern sit all day long, and if that fortune isn't being used to make some sort of meaningful change in some way....they might as well be an NPC.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 04:48:53 PM

I'm fine with Amos the Spam Money Maker doing that, because really....those aren't the types of people who are worth a shit who will ever really affect anything anyways. (To be blunt and maybe a little mean about it towards Amos.)

I don't think this is entirely fair.  You don't need to be Amos the Spam Money Maker to earn large amounts of coin from activities.  You just have to play a lot of Armageddon.  If someone plays 40 hours a week , and spends 25% of their time doing money making activities, that's hardly being a spammer.  That's actually playing a realistic day job.  If that nets to 10 hours of money making activities a week, at 600/hour....that nets to 6000 coins a week which is huge.

I think people who play 40 hours a week are pretty likely to be worth a shit, and affect things....  I mean, activity definitely makes a big difference in driving plots.

The issue with nobles is that if they play 40 hours a week (which some do) their stipend is identical to the noble that plays 4 hours a week, and they don't have as many task-based activities to generate coin from.  Some nobles make a fortune doing other activities...but they're generally a lot more complicated than pulling the sid-vending machine that some other coded activities provide.


Maybe one way of handling the 'cap' on these activities is to have them pay less sid, but give other things as a reward.  Like a sack of salt might sell for 250 coins now lets say...  instead have it sell for 125 + some loaves of bread, or a waterskin filled with water.   Less direct coin generation, same relative value, but less useful for someone whose performing the activity too regularly.  They'll end up collecting more food/water than they need if they don't take long breaks between salting sessions.  They can try to sell that food or water of course, but that comes with roleplaying involved, or greatly diminished values if sold to an NPC.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 03, 2015, 04:51:04 PM

I'm fine with Amos the Spam Money Maker doing that, because really....those aren't the types of people who are worth a shit who will ever really affect anything anyways. (To be blunt and maybe a little mean about it towards Amos.)

I don't think this is entirely fair.  You don't need to be Amos the Spam Money Maker to earn large amounts of coin from activities.  You just have to play a lot of Armageddon.  If I play 40 hours a week, and spend 25% of my time doing money making activities, that's hardly being a spammer.  That's actually playing a realistic day job.

I think people who play 40 hours a week are pretty likely to be worth a shit, and affect things....  I mean, activity definitely makes a big difference in driving plots.

You admit you play A LOT of Armageddon. You put more time into your character in a day than some people do in a few days. You aren't Spam Money Making, you are just LIVING IN ARMAGEDDON and working every single game day which is not what most players do.

You are the exception, you aren't the rule. Not aimed at you.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 05:01:48 PM
I'd love to see the average playtime statistics for the player base.  I've a feeling that 20 hours a week is a lot more common than people might think.  In which case, if 5 of those hours are spent making money, no wonder indies feel more rich than they should be.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: James de Monet on August 03, 2015, 05:11:23 PM
Dman, I think we're hypothesizing different levels of "nothing".

But it's not really pertinent to this thread.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Zoan on August 03, 2015, 05:20:33 PM
Now the city-state economy makes sense. I always wondered how they stayed afloat financially and now I understand - breaking the backs of the common free folk and waiving the fees of corporations and old money. Just like IRL!
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: valeria on August 03, 2015, 05:23:02 PM
The only time I've had any money in the bank is when I'm a leader saving up to support a plot.  So if the goal is less leaders running expensive plots... I don't know, I'm not against the idea, it just seems like it was implemented backward.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 03, 2015, 05:26:06 PM
This mostly hurts the poor nobles who, lol, are really much poorer than they should be.

How rich should they be, then?  Just curious, because there were changes made to this a year and a half ago.

You've got me, there.   Since I've never played a House noble.  I would imagine ...  not as wealthy as high level GMH, but comparatively so?  As their gobs of political currency is, itself, priceless.

Rather than look at who can make the most amount of money in x time, look instead at whose time is more valuable/nets more profit.  Pay is tiered in the game right now based on how much time you probably should/could be spending making money.

If we're talking auto-payment, no one makes more money than nobles and those that work for nobles.  All they have to do is log in and get their paycheck.  This means they can spend more of their time roleplaying and providing benefit elsewhere.  The lowest tier noble houses make a tidy chunk of change each week (edit to add:  a tidy chunk that itself is AT LEAST 4 times greater than the autopayment from the highest-paid GMH employees--and that's comparing the lowest tier to the highest paid role for GMH).  They also have free and relatively safe storage in their estate and don't have to use Nenyuk if they don't want to do so.

GMHs do make more money in sales, but they have to get up to an appropriate level in the House first (if not sponsored) and make the appropriate deals with the right people to make the best sales.  There's effort involved, and that effort gets rewarded.  They may not have free or relatively safe storage in their holdings, but they can certainly absorb costs pretty easily because they could very well have tons of money.

Templars can make money by appropriating it in the form of bribes or fees or taxes.  The reward is proportional to the amount of time invested in the roleplay to get said rewards.  They also can store it safely for free, if these fees are a concern.

Indies can make more money by spending more of their time to make money.  Conversely, they do have many money sinks available for them, and some of those money sinks are mandatory (bank fees), predatory (templar/noble/GMH riding your ass, or even someone stealing your money if it's not in the bank), pre-emptive (bribes), or optional and then mandatory if chosen (MMH progression).  There is nowhere that they can store their sid that it won't be at some kind of risk except for the bank.  The bank has no risk involved but it will charge you to remove money from it.  Up to you if safety is worth it, and given the other concerns above about that money, it might well be worth it for the indie entrepreneur.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Synthesis on August 03, 2015, 05:36:28 PM
haha, i never make withdrawals anyway, just infinite deposits of mad loot

suck it nenyuk
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Kismetic on August 03, 2015, 05:38:58 PM
Yeah, I mean.  I like it, personally.  If you think the noble stipends are balanced appropriately with the bank taxes, even, this is fairly well in hand, assuming there's a maximum tax (20-25%, I guess?).

I guess it's kind of like sales tax, in the end.  If you don't like it, move to Deleware (Red Storm).

Edit to clarify I'm totally joking, there, before I incur the WRATH of the RPI userbase.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: valeria on August 03, 2015, 05:50:09 PM
The reason it doesn't make sense to me is that it doesn't make sense as a banking institution to charge your best customers, the people on whose existence you depend, essentially the highest rates.  Or seriously inconvenience them, because even if you avoid the bank entirely, you still have to walk to your estate in the middle of nowhere and then walk back with your 15k coins a half giant minion is hopefully online to lift and carry so you can pay for your event, supplies, armor, silk, whatever.  As a noble or templar player, more spam walking would not be on my list of productive ways to spend my time.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on August 03, 2015, 05:54:02 PM
Charging the richest and most powerful one percenters the most money does seem awfully socialist/progressive for Allanak.

What is this, Canada?
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Clearsighted on August 03, 2015, 05:58:41 PM
I love the change, and I always thought that Nenyuk was *CRAZY* efficient and effective, given the shithole world that Zalanthas is. There are people living in parts of our real world right now, like Greece, who would commit murder with their bare hands, to get their savings into a bank as safe as Nenyuk.

Given that Zalanthas is a world where people regularly commit murder with their bare hands, having it charge a premium to commoners and grebbers is perfectly fine by me. Hey, don't like it? Hold onto them, or keep them in your apartment, or go bury a sack of coins in the ground with the 'bury' command, and see if you end up losing more than 20%.

Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: bardlyone on August 03, 2015, 06:02:24 PM
I don't particularly like it, but I doubt it will have much if any impact on anyone or anything I ever play unless it's impact via other pcs which is fine.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: AdamBlue on August 03, 2015, 06:15:51 PM
There should be special rates for people in clans.

For example, perhaps the Byn provides escorts for the bank's money transfers, so members of the Byn have less bank tax. Maybe the merchant houses have special deals with the bank, which causes them to compete for their favor. Maybe one could buy a very expensive membership to the Banking Association to have their taxes nullified for a one time fee of a large sum of sid.

Generally, the banking as it currently is is awful.

'We're just gonna take away 10% of your money as a whole'.
That is a bad idea. It should just be a flat banking rate of 25 sid apiece or something small that builds up overtime, with flat increases based on how much money you're withdrawing. Like, withdrawing 1000 sid shouldn't have them take an entire small of it if it is your life savings. Putting money in the bank seems pretty goddamn pointless if you have any secure location to keep money, now, as there is no interest building up due to the bank using your money for investments to make more money, which is what banks actually do to make money in smart investments, or having people take out loans to charge them interest.
Putting money in the bank, now, is literally just having someone take away 10% of your money for no reason.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Mordiggian on August 03, 2015, 06:24:15 PM
Putting money in the bank grants you absolute security. There is no other scenario in which your money is 100% secure. There are some other scenarios in which your money is almost 100% secure, but 100% security comes with a price.

The vast majority of PCs are not and will never be subject to the upper end of the spectrum these fees range on. This is a small change implemented on its own so we can gauge the effects. I promise you guys that this is something we have considered the implications of and will be monitoring.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: musashi on August 03, 2015, 06:24:39 PM
I adore this change, and think 20% is juuuuuuuust right for for a harsh, unfairly, crony capitalist economic system like Zalanthas.

Charging the richest and most powerful one percenters the most money does seem awfully socialist/progressive for Allanak.

What is this, Canada?

Yeah, if it were up to me, I would make some tweaks to have the code better reflect a corrupt society. Things like:

Commoners are fee'd extremely high.
GMH's and their family members are fee'd lower, but still fee'd.
The nobility aren't fee'd at all.
The templarate are not only not fee'd, their accounts gather interest.

But coding is hard and time consuming so ... till then ... as Nyr pointed out, nobles and and the templarate can just keep their money in their strongholds. If a burglar manages to sneak in there and sneak out again (after having wished up to make sure the staff can animate the world appropriately of course) then they earned whatever it is they took.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on August 03, 2015, 06:25:38 PM
...then don't keep it at Nenyuk.

Protect your coins from thieves.  They do that for you, as is, but if you don't want to pay for it to be completely safe...you can hire your own security, which will probably take about 20% of your income.  Har har har.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Mordiggian on August 03, 2015, 06:28:13 PM
Reiterating that there is no flat 20% fee and very few people are subject to fees that high.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Molten Heart on August 03, 2015, 06:32:41 PM
This will have a larger impact on casual players, making the income disparity even larger.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: musashi on August 03, 2015, 06:33:21 PM
Reiterating that there is no flat 20% fee and very few people are subject to fees that high.

I understand. I think the staff are being too nice by setting up a socialist progressive banking fee system rather than a regressive one.

But any fee is better than the no fee system we had before. So I'll take it!
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: AdamBlue on August 03, 2015, 06:37:06 PM
I really don't see why people wouldn't just invest in their own money security. The banks as a whole are prrrrobably going to see only wealthy people using them now, because they literally have so much money that they can't hold it all, while people who only have a large or two to their name will just keep the money on them, because using the bank is a great way to lose two small.
Banks do not work like this in real life for a reason. Banks make money through investments and very low flat fees (A.K.A NOT PERCENTAGES)

To even the most stupid commoner, they would use the bank, then only receive 90% of their money, then realize that 'hey, that's a tenth of my cash! Well, I like to hold onto all of my money, so I'll just carry it with me or store it somewhere safe.'

If the money WENT somewhere, I could maybe understand, but the banking house is literally just a NPC house. They make no impact on the game world besides just being a cash vacuum now, when before they were a pseudo-vnpc house that existed to deal with the fact that money is cumbersome and heavy due to it being obsidian and that it's a terrible form of currency in the first place when there are dozens of much easier alternatives that people would of used, like wooden tokens with different marks to denote value rather then everyone paying in what is the equal to paying everything in goddamn pennies. Tons of pennies. SACKS of pennies.

In general, money is stupid, and this change is also stupid.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Eyeball on August 03, 2015, 06:38:11 PM
Just seems like another disincentive for doing anything. Why bother to earn more than a minimum of coin once you have your suit of gear. Why give a crap if someone offers you money if your pouch already has 150 coins in it. I wish the focus would be on adding new things.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Old Kank on August 03, 2015, 06:38:59 PM
I don't have a strong opinion on the change itself, but I'm floored at the reasoning behind it.

Creating a money sink?  Ugh.  Why not implement ways for money to be spent that spurs creation and interest, rather than just skimming money off the top and just disposing of it?  It just feels like a really cheap patch to a bigger, more complicated problem.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on August 03, 2015, 06:40:32 PM
fuck that im not carryin 1000 coins

nenyuk here you go
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Old Kank on August 03, 2015, 06:42:14 PM
Just seems like another disincentive for doing anything. Why bother to earn more than a minimum of coin. Why give a crap if someone offers you money if your pouch already has 150 coins in it.

This sums up my thoughts on the change itself.

My characters rarely buy anything after about the ~3 days played mark.  They have gear, and skills to survive off of.  Anything extra is just icing on the cake, in case the need for some future luxury came up.  So now I'll drop an emergency fund in the bank, and not save anything past that.  Woo, now my character will spend his monthly pay on 6 drinks at the Gaj, instead of just 3.  Okay.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: The Silence of the Erdlus on August 03, 2015, 06:45:01 PM
That's right, these monthly stipends need to go way up if people want to buy anything.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on August 03, 2015, 06:45:31 PM
but what about my diamond encrusted silver-edged steel longsword

now if i deposit the 500,000 to buy it, will only get 400,000 back.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Eyeball on August 03, 2015, 06:46:03 PM
Creating a money sink?

It might not even have this effect. People will probably carry more coins around now, which means more that can be looted when they die instead of disappearing in Nenyuk's coffers.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on August 03, 2015, 06:47:28 PM
I don't think it is the end of the world.

I'm happy if things become a little more difficult for independents, and happy if some money stays in the game instead of disappearing into Nenyuk never to be seen again.  Staff already said that very few people will be charged the full 20%.  And also that they can adjust the cap if necessary.

My main concern is for the sponsored roles and I've already stated it.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on August 03, 2015, 06:48:01 PM
No, stipends don't need to go up.

If you're a noble and you need money, and you have commoners working for you, get them to DO shit that earns YOU money. Provide funding for THEIR ventures, then take a percentage out that gets YOU income. Be smart about this stuff guys.

If you aren't playing a noble, please don't whine about your stipend. If you are, and you're whining about your stipend, do it to staff in a request. If you don't want to do that, give your commoner workers more shit to do that'll earn you funding. It's not exactly un-IC for Lord Winkydink to have his commoner worker Binkyzink peddling out a dozen rinkytinks that were made with x material, then taking a fee because that commoner works for him.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Mordiggian on August 03, 2015, 06:49:19 PM
This will have a larger impact on casual players, making the income disparity even larger.

That would be true if we were using a flat rate, but we aren't, so it isn't.

I don't have a strong opinion on the change itself, but I'm floored at the reasoning behind it.

Creating a money sink?  Ugh.  Why not implement ways for money to be spent that spurs creation and interest, rather than just skimming money off the top and just disposing of it?  It just feels like a really cheap patch to a bigger, more complicated problem.

Creating a money sink was not the sole motivating factor behind this. The title of the IDB discussion thread that lead to this change is "Increasing Harshness". We've talked before about how we recognize that there are things we would like to do to improve the economy, but we've also talked about how it's a massive undertaking. If we sit around waiting for the opportunity to make one large, sweeping change, while holding off on smaller ones, we won't get very much done.

That's right, these monthly stipends need to go way up if people want to buy anything.

Nobles are the best positioned to disregard this change regardless of personal wealth, because mostly secure noble estates are a thing.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on August 03, 2015, 06:51:47 PM
Know another solution?

Make the CLAN account your bank account. How?

Simple.

Log in reports exactly how much PERSONAL money you deposit in, and how much is paid into the account for the House. Then, at the summary, you write up what was deposited x week, and how much total you have deposited over time.

That way Staff can see you're not just using the infinite bank account for withdrawals, and they can also check back on what you're taking out/putting in to make sure you aren't skeezing them.

If that's not viable, well... shit. I'm just trying to make you guys realize this isn't that bad. There's almost nothing to complain about.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on August 03, 2015, 06:54:04 PM
I'm a little flabberghasted.  In the economy threads, a fee for banking was one of the big things people seemed in favor of.  It gets put in.  People scream that it will end plots.  -What-?
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on August 03, 2015, 06:55:21 PM
I know, right? Holy shit. Talk about an immediate 180. This is something YOU ALL WANTED. If I were Nathvaan I'd be crying that so many people out of nowhere just hated what I did without even legitimately trying it out first.

Then I'd drop 50 meks on all of you and laugh at your meagerness.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Mordiggian on August 03, 2015, 06:57:35 PM
I'm a little flabberghasted.  In the economy threads, a fee for banking was one of the big things people seemed in favor of.  It gets put in.  People scream that it will end plots.  -What-?

People also ask for more vertical role options and then only two applications come in when we open a call for a Byn Lieutenant.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on August 03, 2015, 07:02:44 PM
I'm a little flabberghasted.  In the economy threads, a fee for banking was one of the big things people seemed in favor of.  It gets put in.  People scream that it will end plots.  -What-?

People also ask for more vertical role options and then only two applications come in when we open a call for a Byn Lieutenant.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

To be fair I never asked for more options damnit!


But I'm also busy with my role and can't apply. Sorry! At least I'm not the one whining about it amirite :P?
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on August 03, 2015, 07:03:12 PM
People will always be worried about a change in routine.

Pretty much every major change that happens in is complained about in some way.

It is just part of game design and development human nature.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 07:04:42 PM
I'm a little flabberghasted.  In the economy threads, a fee for banking was one of the big things people seemed in favor of.  It gets put in.  People scream that it will end plots.  -What-?

Like all economics, the devil is in the details.  I don't think anyone is saying they disagree with having a fee, but with how it was implemented.   I'm 100% behind a fee, I love the idea.  But I'd have implemented differently.   If Nenyuk charged 100 sid with every deposit, it would encourage people to carry more coin and act as a coin sink, but still encourage large amounts to be deposited/withdrawn because the fee is worth it at that point.   But now, choosing to deposit 10,000 in the bank is effectively costing you 2,000 coins...whether it's there for 5 days, or 5 years.  That's very, very expensive.

If a leader was putting together 50,000 coins for a festival, it'll now cost them 60,000 to do that, unless they choose to find places to stash their coin.  That could mean an extra month of fundraising...which can still be pillaged.  While outsiders might not be able to easily break into your estate, inside jobs can and probably will happen.  I know I sure as hell would plot against my fellow nobles if they had 50k stashed in their room ripe for the taking...this is Zalanthas after all.

Again, I'm not opposed to this, I just think it could've been implemented in a way that feels harsh and oppressive, without having such a harsh effect on the PC's that are supposed to be filthy rich.

Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: bardlyone on August 03, 2015, 07:05:31 PM
That's because people don't know what they want. Of course they're bitching. It makes the game harder.

Disregard the fact that before it was implemented, making the game harder is why people were bitching that they wanted it to happen.

You can't please people. Especially when those people can't come to a consensus about what they want. Hell, even when they can, it doesn't mean they'll be happy to get it.

That's part of why I've never favored something like this. It doesn't really benefit anyone, and now everyone's bitching. A+ for effort. D for implementation. Not because it's bad, but because when you listen to the meat and potatoes of the bitching, that's what most of it revolves around. That just goes back to the problem of people not knowing what they want, though, ultimately.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on August 03, 2015, 07:06:17 PM
.... Wizturbo.


WHAT?

Isn't this SUPPOSED to be harsh and oppressive!? This is ARMAGEDDON! You make no sense!

If you dump 50k into a bank account, I mean jesus, why do you care if 10k comes out for a withdrawal? It's based on how MUCH you withdraw, not how much you have IN.


Also, if you have a bank account that big, and you need to take that much money out of it, then a fucking fee is the LEAST of your problems.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Case on August 03, 2015, 07:08:35 PM
I like it. I enjoy despotic unfairness though.

Can't see how this would be a huge issue for my PCs, and I pay super poor and super rich. Just extra cost.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Mordiggian on August 03, 2015, 07:08:59 PM
If your bank balance is 60,000 (it almost definitely isn't) and you need to withdraw all 60,000 coins, the coins Nenyuk takes as a service fee are probably the least of your worries.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on August 03, 2015, 07:09:23 PM
I'm a little flabberghasted.  In the economy threads, a fee for banking was one of the big things people seemed in favor of.  It gets put in.  People scream that it will end plots.  -What-?

People also ask for more vertical role options and then only two applications come in when we open a call for a Byn Lieutenant.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I wanted to be able to vertically achieve role options and not have someone be appointed. Also  I'm not complaining about the bank change yet, just amused
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on August 03, 2015, 07:09:59 PM
If your bank balance is 60,000 (it almost definitely isn't) and you need to withdraw all 60,000 coins, the coins Nenyuk takes as a service fee are probably the least of your worries.

Shut up, you, I just said that :P!
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Eyeball on August 03, 2015, 07:10:42 PM
I know, right? Holy shit. Talk about an immediate 180. This is something YOU ALL WANTED.

If that's what you think, go back and read the thread again. The very first part of it was a suggestion that there be more options for spending money. Not just slamming the lid even harder on having money to spend.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: musashi on August 03, 2015, 07:11:55 PM
I'm a little flabberghasted.  In the economy threads, a fee for banking was one of the big things people seemed in favor of.  It gets put in.  People scream that it will end plots.  -What-?

People also ask for more vertical role options and then only two applications come in when we open a call for a Byn Lieutenant.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Just to be fair ... I thought people were asking for the opportunity for more vertical promotions rather than vertical app-in's.  Then again I haven't read the boards in a long time. Could be wrong. But in my experience with leadership roles in a clan, it was a turn off realizing that my PC was app'd in at the only rank they were ever allowed to have as long as I was still playing them. I would imagine promotion equaling storage was the root of that complaint. Hence, app'ing someone in over head of you who also ... can't be promoted without being stored ... seems to miss the mark to me.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 07:13:41 PM
.... Wizturbo.


WHAT?

Isn't this SUPPOSED to be harsh and oppressive!? This is ARMAGEDDON! You make no sense!

If you dump 50k into a bank account, I mean jesus, why do you care if 10k comes out for a withdrawal? It's based on how MUCH you withdraw, not how much you have IN.

Seriously, this concept isn't that hard to grasp.  It's all the same.  The moment you deposit coin into Nenyuk, a percentage is lost.  Sure, you can look at your bank account number and see a number that's 10-20% larger than what you can actually withdraw, but that doesn't make it anymore real and useful to you, unless seeing a bigger number makes someone feel better?

And I'm all for harsh and oppressive.  Believe me...that's kinda my motto...  But this is going to have negative consequences on leaders, purely because its a large percentage based fee with no maximum.  Hell, put a maximum on it and that'd solve the problem.  Make it 20%, up to 1,000 coins, and you'd have created the same harsh and oppressive environment, without basically making the use of the bank only for the poor, financially retarded, or extremely risk adverse.

Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Mordiggian on August 03, 2015, 07:14:42 PM
If you feel like you have too much money and nothing to spend it on, I encourage you to look into things like paying taxes, renting a warehouse, hiring NPC guards, hawkers, merchants...

I'm a little flabberghasted.  In the economy threads, a fee for banking was one of the big things people seemed in favor of.  It gets put in.  People scream that it will end plots.  -What-?

People also ask for more vertical role options and then only two applications come in when we open a call for a Byn Lieutenant.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Just to be fair ... I thought people were asking for the opportunity for more vertical promotions rather than vertical app-in's.  Then again I haven't read the boards in a long time. Could be wrong. But in my experience with leadership roles in a clan, it was a turn off realizing that my PC was app'd in at the only rank they were ever allowed to have as long as I was still playing them. I would imagine promotion equaling storage was the root of that complaint. Hence, app'ing someone in over head of you who also ... can't be promoted without being stored ... seems to miss the mark to me.

Someone has to replace the sponsored lieutenant when they fall down a hole.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on August 03, 2015, 07:15:37 PM
If PC Leader A has 30k and PC Leader B has 50k, the amount that they get fee'd for withdrawing 5000 coins is, if I'm right in what staff said, going to be 1,000 coins period. Which isn't that much. You lose 6,000 to get 5,000 out. How is that such a big deal? I'm not seeing it.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: musashi on August 03, 2015, 07:16:35 PM
Someone has to replace the sponsored lieutenant when they fall down a hole.

I bet cha once that starts happening folks will settle down about that particular complaint  :)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Rhyden on August 03, 2015, 07:17:46 PM
Skimmed most of the thread so apologies if it's already been said.

What about deposited items such as jewelry? Will they be taxed too? Based on their value? Thanks.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: musashi on August 03, 2015, 07:18:49 PM
Seriously, this concept isn't that hard to grasp.

I think you underestimate how hard the concept is to grasp. Think about how many people don't understand simple real world economic theory enough to realize why a flat tax sounds fair to everyone on the surface but actually screws the little guy to cater to the rich one ...
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Is Friday on August 03, 2015, 07:18:59 PM
Someone has to replace the sponsored lieutenant when they fall down a hole.

I bet cha once that starts happening folks will settle down about that particular complaint  :)
Doubt it, since only 2 people wanted to play someone boxed into Lieutenant for their entire lifetime.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: musashi on August 03, 2015, 07:23:24 PM
Someone has to replace the sponsored lieutenant when they fall down a hole.

I bet cha once that starts happening folks will settle down about that particular complaint  :)
Doubt it, since only 2 people wanted to play someone boxed into Lieutenant for their entire lifetime.

Starting a new PC at that rank is different from earning it in game. The Sergeants who would be promoted to that rank are going to be characters that are already in the Byn for their entire lifetime. But I don't want to derail the bank thread with that.

But for a real life comparison ... imagine that you were told you could not be promoted past Sergeant. No one in the Corps at your rank and below could. You complain about it, and then in response a civilian off the street is enlisted as a Staff Sergeant over you. Would you stop complaining? Or greif harder?

Also, would you be surprised if civilians, with no prior experience or commitment to the military ... were hesitant to enlist at that level of responsibility making turnout sparse? Would you take that to mean that people like you who are already in the Corps aren't interested in that promotion?

I think you're looking at apples and oranges.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Pale Horse on August 03, 2015, 07:28:37 PM
I like the change, but you can take my opinion with a crystal of salt since I'm not actively playing right now.

And, forgive me if I am wrong, but I am getting the impression from reading the posts in this thread that people are going off their initial "PANIC!!" and gut reactions and forgetting that the fee is based off of how much you withdraw.

Indie hunter #7 has a bank account of 5,000 sid?  Awesome for them.  They have the privilege of storing their cash in a totally secure location instead of the apartment/hovel/their own person where thieves can break in/thugs can knock you out and take everything.  What does indie hunter #7 get out of this?  Security and peace of mind that even if they did get robbed they had a completely secure money-space that, for a nominal fee on however much they withdrew at the time, they can access.

5,000 sid?  Withdraw 200 to cover your current expense..Banker takes out 20 'sid as a fee from your remaining money.  Entitled modern-day player thinks :"Fook da man for taken mi moneez!"  Indie hunter #7 in Zalanthas, who risks life and limb on a daily basis hunting beasts which (if everyone didn't take advantage of game mechanics and always had in mind that it's a mob with a limited set of coded behavior and not a Zalanthan animal with a vested interest in living) could kill or cripple them thinks: "Holy Tek!  I just survived a 'met hunt, crazy grass-loving elves and the daughter-of-a-'tok sands to get back to civilization to enjoy a round of drinks and Nenyuk is only taking 20 'sid for having kept my cash safe for the last 10 years!  The last time I dealt with nobles, they took 200 'sid as a fee for the glory of having worked with them and then docked my pay further for having gotten the color of my kank wrong (it didn't match the hunting party color scheme)!"
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 07:28:48 PM
If PC Leader A has 30k and PC Leader B has 50k, the amount that they get fee'd for withdrawing 5000 coins is, if I'm right in what staff said, going to be 1,000 coins period. Which isn't that much. You lose 6,000 to get 5,000 out. How is that such a big deal? I'm not seeing it.

You're not grasping the concept...

PC Leader A doesn't have 30k.  They have 24k available to them...Nenyuk is going to seize 6k if they're at the 20% rate (which they are).  In fact, if they're actually intelligent bankers, they'll take your 6k away immediately and lend it to someone else.  No point in holding 30k in the bank for you, you won't be getting more than 24k back.

Sure, they might on paper only show that they're taking away your 6k slowly, as you withdraw from the account...but in reality, the moment you deposited that coin, the money was gone.

If a PC leader needs to accumulate large amounts of coin, to pay for a festival, an RPT, a massive Byn excursion, a wagon, an auction, or any number of other content generating activity....they now needs to accumulate 20% more, or store it in their bedroom and hope their clan members don't steal it.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Is Friday on August 03, 2015, 07:29:12 PM
musashi: Pretty sure we're saying the same thing. No one wants to play an apped in LT because that's more of a reward that's earned for the player than a role that's automatically fun.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Is Friday on August 03, 2015, 07:30:01 PM
And, forgive me if I am wrong, but I am getting the impression from reading the posts in this thread that people are going off their initial "PANIC!!" and gut reactions and forgetting that the fee is based off of how much you withdraw.

Withdraw                                                              (Banks)

   This allows you to take money out of your character's bank account, that
you had previously deposited. You may only use this command at the House
Banks of Nenyuk. The money withdrawn is automatically transferred into your
inventory.

   You can also use this command to withdraw money from your clan's bank
account, but you must be given permission to do so.

Syntax:
   withdraw <amount> [clan]

Example:
   > withdraw 500

> withdraw 50 T'zai Byn

Notes:
   Withdrawals will incur fees from House Nenyuk.  These fees depend on
the size of the account in question.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Pale Horse on August 03, 2015, 07:31:41 PM
And, forgive me if I am wrong, but I am getting the impression from reading the posts in this thread that people are going off their initial "PANIC!!" and gut reactions and forgetting that the fee is based off of how much you withdraw.

Withdraw                                                              (Banks)

   This allows you to take money out of your character's bank account, that
you had previously deposited. You may only use this command at the House
Banks of Nenyuk. The money withdrawn is automatically transferred into your
inventory.

   You can also use this command to withdraw money from your clan's bank
account, but you must be given permission to do so.

Syntax:
   withdraw <amount> [clan]

Example:
   > withdraw 500

> withdraw 50 T'zai Byn

Notes:
   Withdrawals will incur fees from House Nenyuk.  These fees depend on
the size of the account in question.


If such is true, then some Staff in this thread need to change their prior posts.

Or, this helpfile needs to be changed as it's a mistake.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nergal on August 03, 2015, 07:32:03 PM
The percentage depends on the size of the account, but the fee itself is a percentage of the withdrawal amount.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on August 03, 2015, 07:32:15 PM
From what staff said, it's based on what you withdraw, not how much you have in.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: musashi on August 03, 2015, 07:32:48 PM
musashi: Pretty sure we're saying the same thing. No one wants to play an apped in LT because that's more of a reward that's earned for the player than a role that's automatically fun.

Right. Yes we are saying the same thing then. Sorry I misunderstood.
I think once the Lt role is treated as a reward for a self made leader instead of a sponsored role, the complaints about it will die down and the players will be happy it's there.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on August 03, 2015, 07:32:58 PM
So if I have 50k and I withdraw 1k, I lose 200 coins from that.


You're not losing 6k total unless you withdraw all 50k, Wizturbo.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: AdamBlue on August 03, 2015, 07:36:15 PM
The problem with this is that the people who were voicing for these fees is a small but vocal minority.
The majority probably don't want to have to deal with stupid fees and they thought the vocal minority, like many very vocal minority groups would, not really do anything and just bugger off. The problem with this is that everyone hates it because the majority who is quiet really, really hates it for multiple reasons.
1. Suddenness
2. The lack of sense and reason behind it
3. The distinct change of how the game functions in a manner.
4. more reasons ect

Anyway, I hope this is taken out and reworked as the current state is pretty terrible. Knowing how it works, though, because they spent time making it they're just gonna leave it in even if most people don't like it.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Lizzie on August 03, 2015, 07:37:07 PM
If PC Leader A has 30k and PC Leader B has 50k, the amount that they get fee'd for withdrawing 5000 coins is, if I'm right in what staff said, going to be 1,000 coins period. Which isn't that much. You lose 6,000 to get 5,000 out. How is that such a big deal? I'm not seeing it.

You're not grasping the concept...

PC Leader A doesn't have 30k.  They have 24k available to them...Nenyuk is going to seize 6k if they're at the 20% rate (which they are).  In fact, if they're actually intelligent bankers, they'll take your 6k away immediately and lend it to someone else.  No point in holding 30k in the bank for you, you won't be getting more than 24k back.

Sure, they might on paper only show that they're taking away your 6k slowly, as you withdraw from the account...but in reality, the moment you deposited that coin, the money was gone.

If a PC leader needs to accumulate large amounts of coin, to pay for a festival, an RPT, a massive Byn excursion, a wagon, an auction, or any number of other content generating activity....they now needs to accumulate 20% more, or store it in their bedroom and hope their clan members don't steal it.

That's not true, I don't think. It depends on how much you withdraw each time you withdraw, and what your balance is when you're done withdrawing it.

IF (for example) the 20% fee is for any balance over 10,000 sids

and if

you have a 30,000-sid account

then if

you withdraw 18,000 sids

then your account balance, after the fee of 3,600 sids, is included in the withdraw, will now be under 10,000 sids.

Now your fee is only 15%.

Then - you withdraw until your balance is now under the next percentage threshold, and you will now only have to pay 10% on the next withdrawal. And so on.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 07:37:40 PM
*deep, patient breath*

If you have 50k in the Nenyuk bank, you do not have 50k.  You have 40k available to withdraw (to Lizzie's point, you have probably something like 41k or whatever, as the rate will change as the account balance gets smaller).  Period.  There's no point in telling you that you have 50k, because you don't.   The fact that you're paying only on what you withdraw is a complete illusion, you lost ~20% of the value of your deposit the second you handed it over.

That means, you lose 20% of whatever you put into House Nenyuk, whether its for 5 minutes, or 50 years.  That makes using the bank an EXTREMELY expensive proposition for anyone whose trying to accumulate massive amounts of coins for an RPT, event, etc.  Who does that?  Leaders...and that's why you keep hearing from leaders that this could be a problem for them.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Is Friday on August 03, 2015, 07:38:22 PM
The fee is based on your account balance, not how much you withdraw. I've just tested it.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Lizzie on August 03, 2015, 07:38:42 PM
So if I have 50k and I withdraw 1k, I lose 200 coins from that.


You're not losing 6k total unless you withdraw all 50k, Wizturbo.

And even that's only if you withdraw the full amount in a single withdrawal.

For the record, I was against the idea of banking fees when it first came up. I continued to be against it. I'm still against it. It's not a game-breaker for me, but I feel there are better ways to "fix" the economy than banker fees.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 07:39:29 PM

Then - you withdraw until your balance is now under the next percentage threshold, and you will now only have to pay 10% on the next withdrawal. And so on.


Yes...so then instead of costing you 20%, it ends up being like 19% as the average rate you pay on a 50k deposit.  I didn't want to complicate things by explaining all that, as people still aren't grasping the fact that your coin is immediately lost the moment you deposit.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: aeglaeca on August 03, 2015, 07:40:11 PM
Know another solution?

Make the CLAN account your bank account. How?

Simple.

Log in reports exactly how much PERSONAL money you deposit in, and how much is paid into the account for the House. Then, at the summary, you write up what was deposited x week, and how much total you have deposited over time.

That way Staff can see you're not just using the infinite bank account for withdrawals, and they can also check back on what you're taking out/putting in to make sure you aren't skeezing them.

If you're going to do this, I really don't see why nobility and whoever else might be stipend-driving-RP-dependent can't just get their withdrawal fees dropped to 0. There's really no difference between this suggestion and that, not to mention I don't think anyone's asked for no fee, just a flat rate/reduced fee for those types of leadership PCs.

Alternative solutions such as this

(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--n6U3P_Hc--/c_fill,fl_progressive,g_north,h_358,q_80,w_636/17kdjxvdqvygyjpg.jpg)

are certainly available, just rather inconvenient with the end result basically requiring more OOC time between lugging coin from estates or saving to offset the Nenyuk fees.


PC Leader A doesn't have 30k.  They have 24k available to them...Nenyuk is going to seize 6k if they're at the 20% rate (which they are).  In fact, if they're actually intelligent bankers, they'll take your 6k away immediately and lend it to someone else.  No point in holding 30k in the bank for you, you won't be getting more than 24k back.

Sure, they might on paper only show that they're taking away your 6k slowly, as you withdraw from the account...but in reality, the moment you deposited that coin, the money was gone.

If a PC leader needs to accumulate large amounts of coin, to pay for a festival, an RPT, a massive Byn excursion, a wagon, an auction, or any number of other content generating activity....they now needs to accumulate 20% more, or store it in their bedroom and hope their clan members don't steal it.

They probably have a little more than 24k if they're withdrawing in increments. Presumably once your account drops under certain floors your fees will also be reduced. Honestly, it would be really nice to see exactly what the fee rates are so you can plan accordingly.


I do think very large spends (festivals, wagons, etc., things where the amount of coin in question are above 20k) are going to be handled through clan accounts because that sort of thing needs immortal supervision to begin with. My concerns are shifted toward smaller but more constant spends like Byn contracts or hiring temporary workers or spur of the moment activities.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Is Friday on August 03, 2015, 07:40:19 PM
nevermind
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: musashi on August 03, 2015, 07:40:36 PM
So if I have 50k and I withdraw 1k, I lose 200 coins from that.


You're not losing 6k total unless you withdraw all 50k, Wizturbo.

I think Wizturbo's point was that making 1 5k withdraw and being charged 1k in fees ... is the same as making 5 1k withdraws and being charged 200 coins 5 times.

But ... that's not always going to be true. Once your account drops below a threshold your interest rate will drop too so ... you may end up with marginally more than you thought you'd have.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Erythil on August 03, 2015, 07:42:13 PM
I like the idea of banking being a little more restrictive in theory, but I think the withdrawal fee rates need to be adjusted downwards.  They are excessive if what I have read in this thread is accurate.

I also think it would feel less punitive if the fees were levied on deposit rather than on withdrawal.  Alternatively, a system of annual fees for having accounts beyond a certain size would be okay by me too.

As it stands, this amounts primarily to a massive buff towards burglars and raiders.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on August 03, 2015, 07:42:25 PM
So withdraw in 1000 coins increments so the tax rate goes down as you go :P?
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Pale Horse on August 03, 2015, 07:42:37 PM
The percentage depends on the size of the account, but the fee itself is a percentage of the withdrawal amount.

Ah, I think I understand now.

Totally made up examples:
1,000 - 5,000 in the bank puts you in the 1% withdrawal transaction fee.  So long as you have between 1,000 and 5,000 you will be deducted 1% of the amount you have withdrawn.

10,000 to 100,000 puts you in the 20% withdrawal transaction fee.  Any withdrawal while you have between 10,000 and 100,000 will have a 20% deduction fee of the amount withdrawn taken from your account.

Edit: If this was readily obvious to everyone else in this thread but me, I apologize.  I don't math well under the best of circumstances and the allergy meds I'm on right now have really done a number on my ability to think clearly.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Lizzie on August 03, 2015, 07:44:14 PM
And really if you have 50,000 sids in the bank and you're not one of the "exempt" or "partially exempt" characters, you are probably one of those people for whom this system was created in the first place. Really though, all we need to do is make all of Malken's characters pay 50% of every deposit he makes into the bank, and have a *clanned* NPC rob his locker of 50% of all sids he stores in his clan compound, forever. I think that'll solve all the banking issues.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: AdamBlue on August 03, 2015, 07:46:42 PM
So if I have 50k and I withdraw 1k, I lose 200 coins from that.


You're not losing 6k total unless you withdraw all 50k, Wizturbo.

I think Wizturbo's point was that making 1 5k withdraw and being charged 1k in fees ... is the same as making 5 1k withdraws and being charged 200 coins 5 times.

But ... that's not always going to be true. Once your account drops below a threshold your interest rate will drop too so ... you may end up with marginally more than you thought you'd have.

It's 10%. If you put in 10 sid into the bank, you will only get 9 sid back, therefore transforming your available money to 9 sid. 100 sid becomes 90 sid. 1000 sid becomes 900 sid. 100000 sid becomes 90000 sid. And that's only with the flat 10% rate. Even the 10% rate is way too fucking much. 20% is uncomprehendable. If your life savings is 10 large, guess what fucker, you only have 9 large now, we're just gonna take a large. Congrats, you're a fucking idiot for depositing your money. Now the money is gone forever, great job. No matter how much you take 'tiny' withdrawls, it's gonna cost the same amount of money to you.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 07:47:39 PM


I think Wizturbo's point was that making 1 5k withdraw and being charged 1k in fees ... is the same as making 5 1k withdraws and being charged 200 coins 5 times.

But ... that's not always going to be true. Once your account drops below a threshold your interest rate will drop too so ... you may end up with marginally more than you thought you'd have.

Yes, that's definitely the case.  But this 20% rate kicks in fairly soon.  My balance isn't 50,000, or anywhere near that.

Pretend the index is as follows:

0-5000 coins = 10%
5001-10000 coins = 15%
10000+ = 20%

You deposit 50,000 for your festival extravaganza, over the course of many IC years as you save up.  You go to withdraw that, in 1k increments:

The first 40k is taxed at 20% rate (8000 coin fee).  The next 5k is taxed at 15% (750 coin fee), and the remaining 5k is taxed at 10% (500 coin fee).  

Net withdrawal =  40,750.  Net tax = 9,250.    Effective rate = 18.5%


End result?  You need to raise more like 60k, in order to actually withdraw 50k. 
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on August 03, 2015, 07:49:07 PM
... So what?

If I have 10k, first of all, why do I give  a fuck if I lose 1k on withdrawals? I still have a whole load of cash. If I have fucking 50k, I don't care if I lose 10k or whatever of that. I still have TONS of cash. I don't need to worry about that shit.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Vox on August 03, 2015, 07:50:52 PM
I really like this idea!

Hopefully it encourages people to sock away their coin in their trunks or just carry more of it on their person.

Burglars and raiders rejoice!

My only question is, now that Nenyuk has a strong revenue-generating 'tax' in place, does that coin fill the coffers of the City in which the bank is located or will we be seeing a sudden increase in fancy, Nenyuk-financed construction projects? :)


Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on August 03, 2015, 07:52:12 PM
Most people who need festival money don't need -fifty thousand- for it.

Fifty thousand coins is just being rich and having access to tons of luxury items. Why do you care if you're losing some of it on a withdrawal? Just make more money. You're clearly good at it.

Those of us who think 3k is a lot to have will continue to just make money and deal with the bank accounts the way we always have.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Mordiggian on August 03, 2015, 07:54:47 PM
I like the idea of banking being a little more restrictive in theory, but I think the withdrawal fee rates need to be adjusted downwards.  They are excessive if what I have read in this thread is accurate.

I also think it would feel less punitive if the fees were levied on deposit rather than on withdrawal.  Alternatively, a system of annual fees for having accounts beyond a certain size would be okay by me too.

As it stands, this amounts primarily to a massive buff towards burglars and raiders.

Don't assume everything people are posting in this thread is accurate.

And I don't think it's a bad thing if it increases opportunities for murder, corruption, and betrayal. The intention was certainly not to make things easier for people trying to amass wealth.

I really like this idea!

Hopefully it encourages people to sock away their coin in their trunks or just carry more of it on their person.

Burglars and raiders rejoice!

My only question is, now that Nenyuk has a strong revenue-generating 'tax' in place, does that coin fill the coffers of the City in which the bank is located or will we be seeing a sudden increase in fancy, Nenyuk-financed construction projects?


Assume that Nenyuk always collected banking fees virtually. We did not have code to enable this function until recently.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 07:55:11 PM

Fifty thousand coins is just being rich and having access to tons of luxury items. Why do you care if you're losing some of it on a withdrawal? Just make more money. You're clearly good at it.


This is what you're not grasping...  The people who put on those festivals do spend 50k coins, and they don't "make" the money, they accumulate it in stipends over the course of RL months.  By making it take 20% more RL months to accumulate said money, you're making it harder for them to put on more festivals.

This change is hurting the people on stipends for more than the people who go out and can farm up more sid by foraging, crafting, ectera, because they're on a fixed income and the foraging crowd is not.

Sure, those same stipend crowd can go off and ask the staff to give them some money, but that takes a lot of work too.  Staff aren't exactly generous with...well...anything.  It's probably more OOC work to ask the staff for the money, than it is to try and accumulate it yourself in-game, unless you're asking for some absurdly massive amount of money.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Lizzie on August 03, 2015, 07:55:25 PM
If you're a noble, then you have access to the clan account. You deposit your funds into the clan account, and in your next weekly character report, you make sure to point out that the 50,000 extra in the clan account is your deposit to cover the expense of the project you are working on, on behalf of your clan. Then, you won't have to pay any fee to withdraw it, when the time comes. And it's 100% safe from theft - unless your co-clannie decides to murder-corrupt-betray you. Which can create some interesting drama, when you tell everyone you ordered stuff from that your Lord Cousin has kindly offered to pay the tab :)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nergal on August 03, 2015, 07:56:42 PM
The problem with this is that the people who were voicing for these fees is a small but vocal minority.
The majority probably don't want to have to deal with stupid fees and they thought the vocal minority, like many very vocal minority groups would, not really do anything and just bugger off. The problem with this is that everyone hates it because the majority who is quiet really, really hates it for multiple reasons.
1. Suddenness
2. The lack of sense and reason behind it
3. The distinct change of how the game functions in a manner.
4. more reasons ect

Anyway, I hope this is taken out and reworked as the current state is pretty terrible. Knowing how it works, though, because they spent time making it they're just gonna leave it in even if most people don't like it.

There was never actually a majority for any particular idea, as far as I can remember. Nor is there a majority who hates the idea, as it is way too early to establish such.

Keeping that in mind, I think it is fair to say that most people agree the economy has needed a serious overhaul. However, it is impractical, time-consuming, and jarring to prepare a blanket system of changes and implement it all simultaneously. This change is like spot-cleaning a corner of something with a new cleaning product to see if it ruins the corner, or if it's good to use everywhere else. Whether this change has its intended effects is what will drive staff action going forward, not necessarily player opinion of a change mere hours after implementation, well within the window where there tends to be extreme views on any given change to the game no matter what that change happens to be.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on August 03, 2015, 07:56:50 PM
If you're a noble, then you have access to the clan account. You deposit your funds into the clan account, and in your next weekly character report, you make sure to point out that the 50,000 extra in the clan account is your deposit to cover the expense of the project you are working on, on behalf of your clan. Then, you won't have to pay any fee to withdraw it, when the time comes. And it's 100% safe from theft - unless your co-clannie decides to murder-corrupt-betray you. Which can create some interesting drama, when you tell everyone you ordered stuff from that your Lord Cousin has kindly offered to pay the tab :)


See: Saellyn's post earlier in the thread, where he made mention of this idea. Now it's officially backed by Lizzie, folks.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: aeglaeca on August 03, 2015, 07:57:51 PM
... So what?

If I have 10k, first of all, why do I give  a fuck if I lose 1k on withdrawals? I still have a whole load of cash. If I have fucking 50k, I don't care if I lose 10k or whatever of that. I still have TONS of cash. I don't need to worry about that shit.

If you have 50k because you saved 4 RL months worth of your stipend and you need that money to throw yourself a fantabulous birthday party with illegal spice and underground boxing (or whatever) then you probably care about losing 10k. Yes, I am clearly not accounting for supplementary income here.

If you're a noble, then you have access to the clan account. You deposit your funds into the clan account, and in your next weekly character report, you make sure to point out that the 50,000 extra in the clan account is your deposit to cover the expense of the project you are working on, on behalf of your clan. Then, you won't have to pay any fee to withdraw it, when the time comes. And it's 100% safe from theft - unless your co-clannie decides to murder-corrupt-betray you. Which can create some interesting drama, when you tell everyone you ordered stuff from that your Lord Cousin has kindly offered to pay the tab :)

Why is House Fancypants not subject to fees but Lord Fancypants is? Especially considering the coin comes from the state to begin with?
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Lizzie on August 03, 2015, 07:58:52 PM
Most people who need festival money don't need -fifty thousand- for it.

Fifty thousand coins is just being rich and having access to tons of luxury items. Why do you care if you're losing some of it on a withdrawal? Just make more money. You're clearly good at it.

Those of us who think 3k is a lot to have will continue to just make money and deal with the bank accounts the way we always have.

They're talking about the people who are organizing the festival, not the people attending it and buying stuff from it. Festivals take a lot of planning. And a lot of sids. Often, festivals involve different PCs contributing funds to cover the expenses - and those funds get pooled into a single account, so that when the bill comes from Kadius, Salarr, the Atrium, the Byn, the Arm, and the Templarate, there only need be one person responsible for paying it all out.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on August 03, 2015, 07:59:11 PM
Why does Lord Fancypants need his own account in the first place? Everything he has should be provided by the family, who is more than happy to keep track of the amount of money he takes out (so, assumedly, what he puts in is also taken into account).
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Mordiggian on August 03, 2015, 08:01:51 PM
Lady Fancypants and Lord Templar Fuckwood do have highly secure personal quarters to store excess funds if they find their account with Nenyuk is reaching dangerous levels.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: aeglaeca on August 03, 2015, 08:07:49 PM
Why does Lord Fancypants need his own account in the first place? Everything he has should be provided by the family, who is more than happy to keep track of the amount of money he takes out (so, assumedly, what he puts in is also taken into account).

Because Lord Fancypants' devious cousin Senior Lady Schmoozealot needs a new silk dress for next week's party and is also in charge of the books.

It just seems like if you're advocating for 'just use the clan accounts' you're going to run into problems which involve noble staff sitting down for an extra 30 minutes a week to make sure your purchase of a drink and pastry, three spice bricks and brand new sparkly princess tiara add up.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: ShaLeah on August 03, 2015, 08:10:38 PM
We had a long discussion about this at the APM.

I'm alright with it.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 08:10:43 PM
Lady Fancypants and Lord Templar Fuckwood do have highly secure personal quarters to store excess funds if they find their account with Nenyuk is reaching dangerous levels.

Highly secure from external thieves, yes.  Meanwhile, they lose the convenience of the bank, and are still at risk of losing huge sums of money to internal thieves, or other less conventional means of theft.  Which would be fine, if this coin wasn't earmarked for something that is intended to create content for the game.

Is this the end of the world?  No, of course not.  It's just not a positive thing in my opinion.  It's making the game more logistically difficult for leaders , who already have a lot on their plate.  I do like the effect it'll have on non-leaders though, although, I think the exact same thing could've been achieved through a different implementation of the same code.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on August 03, 2015, 08:13:31 PM
Lady Fancypants and Lord Templar Fuckwood do have highly secure personal quarters to store excess funds if they find their account with Nenyuk is reaching dangerous levels.

This point has been reiterated many times.  People who hit this level of coin who are not nobles...this is worth it, for the matter of -extremely- safe banking.  You literally do not have to worry about theft while it's deposited.  If you want to avoid the fees, you -do- have to worry about theft.

Nobles and templars and grand merchant kingpins tend to have highly secure personal grounds that allow them to decide between using the bank or using an extremely safe compound.  In which case you're literally griping about having to:

a)Plan ahead before leaving your estate.
b)Walk further than you want to in order to reach your estate for an unforeseen expense.
c)Use your estate.

Or, people can carry around a bunch of coins and become vulnerable to cutpurses.  And cutpurses run into the same dilemma as everyone else.

Also.  I think this should push for that sliding bolt lock idea I presented awhile ago, so that people actually secure their homes and sleep in them, and so that burglars making marks have to actually...study their marks.  ;)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on August 03, 2015, 08:14:37 PM
Quote
Highly secure from external thieves, yes.  Meanwhile, they lose the convenience of the bank, and are still at risk of losing huge sums of money to internal thieves, or other less conventional means of theft.  Which would be fine, if this coin wasn't earmarked for something that is intended to create content for the game.

Seriously?  Now you're saying utter coin security is required for plot development because thieves and heists are merely plot and content removers?
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 08:16:55 PM
Anyone who thinks a noble compound is an impenetrable barrier of security is deluding themselves.  I'm going to look forward to the grand-theft stories that come from this.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on August 03, 2015, 08:18:38 PM
Anyone who thinks a noble compound is an impenetrable barrier of security is deluding themselves.  I'm going to look forward to the grand-theft stories that come from this.

Me too.  High-Prestige heists are pretty awesome in this game, and hard to pull off.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Mordiggian on August 03, 2015, 08:19:58 PM
Anyone who thinks a noble compound is an impenetrable barrier of security is deluding themselves.  I'm going to look forward to the grand-theft stories that come from this.

This is not a bad thing.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 03, 2015, 08:20:10 PM

Fifty thousand coins is just being rich and having access to tons of luxury items. Why do you care if you're losing some of it on a withdrawal? Just make more money. You're clearly good at it.


This is what you're not grasping...  The people who put on those festivals do spend 50k coins, and they don't "make" the money, they accumulate it in stipends over the course of RL months.  By making it take 20% more RL months to accumulate said money, you're making it harder for them to put on more festivals.

Let's say this "I have to spend 50k of my own money as a noble for this festival, and can't use any money from the House to help out with that, and no one else is helping out with the festival, no, it all comes out of my own account" thing is true.

The poorest noble tier (doing nothing else) could raise this much money in 3 IC years by doing nothing except logging in and getting their stipends.  The richest noble tier (doing nothing else) could raise this much in about 1.5 IC years.  If this is the biggest concern, I think they'll be okay waiting a week or two more if they wish to use Nenyuk to store their coin.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 03, 2015, 08:26:15 PM
If noble or templar bank accounts are a concern to noble/templar players, please correspond with your clan staff (or address Nyr or Adhira in the request tool).  We would be open to doing a one-time transfer to you (no fees/etc) if you have funds that you feel are tied up in a bad way.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 08:33:07 PM
Well, I'm sick of arguing about this.  In the end, it'll all just come down to personal opinion anyway, so it's a lot of wasted breath.

I'd like to say this will effect my current PC in almost no way, so my motivations for arguing for different fee rates/structures is purely because I think it'd be better for the game.  Certain roles will be impacted by this a lot more than others.  There's also a certain amount of "omg, some of you really don't understand economics" but I suppose that's just my RL profession seeping through :)

I'd like to restate, I'm really happy for these changes to be made.  I think this is a net positive thing for the game as a whole.  I just think it could be MORE net positive, if implemented in slightly different ways.

(Idea for improvement:  putting a cap on the maximum withdrawal fee, so if you want to stash 50k, it won't cost you 10k, but might cost you 1-2k instead.  Meaningless for the average player, but so much more convenient/accommodating for the big expense payers out there)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: AdamBlue on August 03, 2015, 08:42:32 PM
Well, I'm sick of arguing about this.  In the end, it'll all just come down to personal opinion anyway, so it's a lot of wasted breath.

I'd like to say this will effect my current PC in almost no way, so my motivations for arguing for different fee rates/structures is purely because I think it'd be better for the game.  There's also a certain amount of "omg, some of you really don't understand economics" but I suppose that's just my RL profession seeping through :)

I'd like to restate, I'm really happy for these changes to be made.  I think this is a net positive thing for the game as a whole.  I just think it could be MORE net positive, if implemented in slightly different ways.

(Idea for improvement:  putting a cap on the maximum withdrawal fee, so if you want to stash 50k, it won't cost you 10k, but might cost you 1-2k instead.  Meaningless for the average player, but so much more convenient/accommodating for the big expense payers out there)

I think they should revamp this to not effect smaller bank accounts, personally. Or reduce it to 5% or less.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: musashi on August 03, 2015, 08:46:54 PM
Anyone who thinks a noble compound is an impenetrable barrier of security is deluding themselves.  I'm going to look forward to the grand-theft stories that come from this.

I'm looking forward to them too.

For now, my advice would be:

Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Erythil on August 03, 2015, 08:48:10 PM
I guess my feeling on this -- and why I think some people are responding negatively -- iis that it seems game-y and engineered to try and produce a desired result, rather than being an honest reflection of any kind of banking practice, fair or otherwise, that has been utilized in human history.  Typically, the bigger the account, the lower the fee, as more money in the vault allows the bank more funds with which to issue loans and play in various markets.  And Nenyuk would assumedly be looking to maximize their capital rather than enforce the social hierarchy by punishing rich independents.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: musashi on August 03, 2015, 08:51:12 PM
I guess my feeling on this -- and why I think some people are responding negatively -- iis that it seems game-y and engineered to try and produce a desired result, rather than being an honest reflection of any kind of banking practice, fair or otherwise, that has been utilized in human history.  Typically, the bigger the account, the lower the fee, as more money in the vault allows the bank more funds with which to issue loans and play in various markets.  And Nenyuk would assumedly be looking to maximize their capital rather than enforce the social hierarchy by punishing rich independents.

I'm not economic historian but ... in a dictatorship ... are banks allowed to operate in the same manner they do in modern day Amercia? I'm sure Nenyuk does want to maximize their capital, but I would think they are also beholden to the city of Allanak to enforce the social hierarchy as well, and so they end up trying to maximize their capital within the confines set by the state. Because Allanak is not a free market society.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: bardlyone on August 03, 2015, 08:56:04 PM
I guess my feeling on this -- and why I think some people are responding negatively -- iis that it seems game-y and engineered to try and produce a desired result, rather than being an honest reflection of any kind of banking practice, fair or otherwise, that has been utilized in human history.  Typically, the bigger the account, the lower the fee, as more money in the vault allows the bank more funds with which to issue loans and play in various markets.  And Nenyuk would assumedly be looking to maximize their capital rather than enforce the social hierarchy by punishing rich independents.

I'm not economic historian but ... in a dictatorship ... are banks allowed to operate in the same manner they do in modern day Amercia? I'm sure Nenyuk does want to maximize their capital, but I would think they are also beholden to the city of Allanak to enforce the social hierarchy as well, and so they end up trying to maximize their capital within the confines set by the state. Because Allanak is not a free market society.

Not only that, but with all major goods and commodities safely monopolized by monolithic "family" entities, there's not actually any market to speak of. Much like with real life $$$, money in the bank and not out in circulation, as the richest of the rich would have, actually shrink an economy, not grows it. It's the free circulation of funds which reflects a larger economy, because more capital is in circulation, but that's another thing that's purely debate because of the breaks between reality and game reality, and the levels of what is vs isn't known, and a shitload of other factors.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on August 03, 2015, 08:56:18 PM
Let's say this "I have to spend 50k of my own money as a noble for this festival, and can't use any money from the House to help out with that, and no one else is helping out with the festival, no, it all comes out of my own account" thing is true.

This happened to my noble.  It wasn't a festival though.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 03, 2015, 08:56:28 PM
I know that won't belay the order for gathering the pitchforks, but maybe it is worth mentioning that we do plan to deal with social tiers and we also plan to make further changes to this.  You are seeing the guts/foundation of a new system.  These will be incremental changes enacted over time.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Erythil on August 03, 2015, 08:58:49 PM
I guess my feeling on this -- and why I think some people are responding negatively -- iis that it seems game-y and engineered to try and produce a desired result, rather than being an honest reflection of any kind of banking practice, fair or otherwise, that has been utilized in human history.  Typically, the bigger the account, the lower the fee, as more money in the vault allows the bank more funds with which to issue loans and play in various markets.  And Nenyuk would assumedly be looking to maximize their capital rather than enforce the social hierarchy by punishing rich independents.

I'm not economic historian but ... in a dictatorship ... are banks allowed to operate in the same manner they do in modern day Amercia? I'm sure Nenyuk does want to maximize their capital, but I would think they are also beholden to the city of Allanak to enforce the social hierarchy as well, and so they end up trying to maximize their capital within the confines set by the state. Because Allanak is not a free market society.

I'm not thinking about modern American banks exclusively, I'm rolling Renaissance banks and even early guild banks into my analysis.  I will admit that I'm not familiar with banking practice in Babylon or any other sufficiently awful premodern society.  But I was under the impression that what they had there functioned moreso as vaults and treasuries rather than a proper bank.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Lizzie on August 03, 2015, 08:59:36 PM

Fifty thousand coins is just being rich and having access to tons of luxury items. Why do you care if you're losing some of it on a withdrawal? Just make more money. You're clearly good at it.


This is what you're not grasping...  The people who put on those festivals do spend 50k coins, and they don't "make" the money, they accumulate it in stipends over the course of RL months.  By making it take 20% more RL months to accumulate said money, you're making it harder for them to put on more festivals.

Let's say this "I have to spend 50k of my own money as a noble for this festival, and can't use any money from the House to help out with that, and no one else is helping out with the festival, no, it all comes out of my own account" thing is true.

The poorest noble tier (doing nothing else) could raise this much money in 3 IC years by doing nothing except logging in and getting their stipends.  The richest noble tier (doing nothing else) could raise this much in about 1.5 IC years.  If this is the biggest concern, I think they'll be okay waiting a week or two more if they wish to use Nenyuk to store their coin.

The problem with this, Nyr, is exactly what you said - he'd have to do *nothing* other than show up and collect his stipend. He wouldn't also have funds to pay bribes, throw a 3-keg party for his noble girlfriend's birthday, buy his concubine a new pair of shoes, or even buy himself a new hat. He'd have to save up -instead- of doing anything else. That reduces plot-moving opportunity. I also don't believe that nobles have to use 100% of their own money, exclusively, to run these things. I know from experience that there's more than that involved, and much of it comes from other PCs. But it is typically still stored in an individual PC's bank account, and the PC who is paying the bills for it still has to pay the fee, unless the House allows that PC to use the House account for that purpose.

Here's an idea - perhaps this will solve the problem:

Allow "escrow" accounts. Each Noble House can have 1 escrow account, where only one noble at a time can access it for a specific window of time, and the funds have to be earmarked for a specific thing. The funds can come -from- anywhere - other PCs can contribute to it, the House can contribute to it, other clans can even contribute to it. Think of it as a kickstarter account, Zalanthas style.

And for a NOMINAL fee - say, 1%, the noble in question or up to one of that specific noble's *assigned* lackeys, can withdraw from it, at any point. Maybe the lackey can only withdraw up to 2000 sids. Or maybe the noble can include a maximun when he assigns that PC the withdrawal privilege.

In this way, the noble gets the privilege of secured banking for his festival - anyone can buff up the account, and because it's earmarked for this specific festival, and is benefitting Nenyuk anyway (since all those festival patrons will need to withdraw funds to pay for all the festivities when they attend), that noble and his trusted #1 senior aide can withdraw as needed at only 1% fee.

Once the festival is over, the noble loses access to the account, and any funds left over go into the House account (which is what is used to give him his monthly stipend anyway so it stands to reason the House would retain the coins).


Or something like that.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 03, 2015, 09:01:58 PM
Let's say this "I have to spend 50k of my own money as a noble for this festival, and can't use any money from the House to help out with that, and no one else is helping out with the festival, no, it all comes out of my own account" thing is true.

This happened to my noble.  It wasn't a festival though.

50,000 coins of your own noble's money?  Before or after the changes that increased noble pay?  Nothing reimbursed or assisted at all from the noble house?

I was pointing out an extreme example.  It is possible people have been in these scenarios before or may put themselves in these scenarios again.  My point was that even alone and unassisted by staff or other players, nobles make enough now to handle this within a relatively short period of time.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 09:03:30 PM
I know that won't belay the order for gathering the pitchforks, but maybe it is worth mentioning that we do plan to deal with social tiers and we also plan to make further changes to this.  You are seeing the guts/foundation of a new system.  These will be incremental changes enacted over time.

I personally don't want my criticism to be viewed as pitchforks.  I LOVE this change.  It's great.  +10 net points to Armageddon (+15 effect for general population, -5 for leaders).  I think we could implement these same systems and get the full +15 though, without the -5.  Maybe some of these other changes you're eluding to will do just that.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 03, 2015, 09:08:02 PM

I was pointing out an extreme example.  It is possible people have been in these scenarios before or may put themselves in these scenarios again.  My point was that even alone and unassisted by staff or other players, nobles make enough now to handle this within a relatively short period of time.

4.5 RL months (3 IC years) of saving every single sid is hardly a short period of time, even to me, and my tendency to play fairly long lived characters.  (Of course, if they stash that coin in Nenyuk its 5.5 RL months, but I digress..)
 
But then again, maybe a junior noble from a middle tier house shouldn't be able to afford a festival on their own, even if they save and spend absolutely nothing for years.  Maybe they should have to beg for help from the richer houses, or scheme to get more coin from somewhere else in a MBC fashion?  I certainly wouldn't disagree with that...  they're rich, but they're not Nenyuki rich :).
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on August 03, 2015, 09:11:39 PM
Me: Yo clan staff, net positive in the accounts.
Staff: Word.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Beethoven on August 03, 2015, 09:12:31 PM
I have a feeling I will like the system post-tweaks. Yes, the heavy sacks o' pennies are unwieldy and all that, but I am all for encouraging people to do more stuff with their ridiculous amounts of hoarded money than just automatically place all of it in the MAGICAL IMPENETRABLE IRON FORTRESS OF NENYUK, NEVER TO BE SEEN AGAIN. This will encourage people to make smart (or possibly dumb) decisions. At the very least, it will encourage them to make decisions. My main fear was that social tiers weren't being addressed. Yes, nobles can keep their coin in their estates and all that, but I just didn't like how unthematic and modern the whole "tax the upper crust" business felt. Now that I know that staff is going to be making changes that take social hierarchy into account, I feel a lot more at ease about the whole thing.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on August 03, 2015, 09:12:48 PM
I don't believe Nenyuk's primary form of profit is in moneylending.  They don't have incentives to direct you to improve their coin stash so they can lend out more loans.  I don't...think there's ever been reference to a loan from Nenyuk that I've seen, but I never played a nenyuki agent, either.  Just a Nenyuki guard.  I believe their profit comes directly from unclaimed funds and property management.

You may say that gives incentive for -more- free banking, but I think it does not.  In a world like Zalanthas, it all ends up in the bank at some point or another.  Even if it's after being buried for a century and rediscovered by a guy who is suddenly rich and needs a safe place to store it until he can hire help.

Edit:  I could be completely wrong on the moneylending thing.  This is just an impression of mine.  Just kind of reiterating that what they actually -sell- is security, not monetary gain.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on August 03, 2015, 09:14:36 PM
I'd be mad but Nenyuk usually gets more than 20% of my hoard when I die. I can't recall ever actually spending so much the tax would make me broke.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on August 03, 2015, 09:19:55 PM
50,000 coins of your own noble's money?  Before or after the changes that increased noble pay?  Nothing reimbursed or assisted at all from the noble house?

40k, yes, after, and nothing was reimbursed.  It's fine, it was a plot thing and I was cool with it.  But just saying, it can happen.  (it was time sensitive too...I had to come up with 40k in about 2 weeks.  I did it though, because I had the best minions. <3)

Anyway, the bank account system has until now basically behaved as if it were copy/pasted from diku stock code.  I've never liked it.  so it's nice that things are shifting around and starting to morph into something that might resemble a realistic economy one day.  I really, really hope that social/political status will be taken into account (hah) soon.  Sponsored social roles have it tough sometimes, I hate to think of their cashflow being burned with the same torch that's burning the ivory hair needle cartel.  Especially since that wouldn't make much IC sense.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on August 03, 2015, 09:23:53 PM
50,000 coins of your own noble's money?  Before or after the changes that increased noble pay?  Nothing reimbursed or assisted at all from the noble house?

40k, yes, after, and nothing was reimbursed.  It's fine, it was a plot thing and I was cool with it.  But just saying, it can happen.  (it was time sensitive too...I had to come up with 40k in about 2 weeks.  I did it though, because I had the best minions. <3)


Minions can make you money, people, if you know how to utilize them.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: WithSprinkles on August 03, 2015, 09:24:28 PM
My gawd I wanna cry.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Is Friday on August 03, 2015, 09:30:45 PM
Meh. Anyone earning that much for their noble in that short a period of time sniffs of abuse to me, (unless it was political deals.)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 03, 2015, 09:35:16 PM
50,000 coins of your own noble's money?  Before or after the changes that increased noble pay?  Nothing reimbursed or assisted at all from the noble house?

40k, yes, after, and nothing was reimbursed.  It's fine, it was a plot thing and I was cool with it.  But just saying, it can happen.  (it was time sensitive too...I had to come up with 40k in about 2 weeks.  I did it though, because I had the best minions. <3)

Ah, I was able to read up on that situation after you laid out the number.  The amounts are close enough (what's 10k between friends?) but the situation is not the same as the one depicted.  It's one thing to need x amount of coin for something plot-based (whether brought upon by oneself, other PCs, or etc) and then to scrape it together because of a short time frame (or enlarged bank account, whichever the case may be).  

It's quite another to be expected to finance a public event with no assistance from the House.  That's the part I am saying is absurd, and that's what I'm pointing out as "extreme" with the 50k example.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: musashi on August 03, 2015, 09:35:23 PM
I'm not thinking about modern American banks exclusively, I'm rolling Renaissance banks and even early guild banks into my analysis.  I will admit that I'm not familiar with banking practice in Babylon or any other sufficiently awful premodern society.  But I was under the impression that what they had there functioned moreso as vaults and treasuries rather than a proper bank.

Banking and Business in the Roman World by Jean Andreau is a really good read when it comes to how banking functioned in an ancient republic vs an ancient dictatorship, since it covers how Rome handled finance both when the Senate held power, and after the rise of the Roman Emperor as a system of rule.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: musashi on August 03, 2015, 09:47:15 PM
I'm not thinking about modern American banks exclusively, I'm rolling Renaissance banks and even early guild banks into my analysis.  I will admit that I'm not familiar with banking practice in Babylon or any other sufficiently awful premodern society.  But I was under the impression that what they had there functioned moreso as vaults and treasuries rather than a proper bank.

You could also read Financing Civilization, by William N. Goetzmann.

It lays it out pretty well using the ancient city of Uruk as an example. Basically ... the temple dedicated to the Goddess collected 100% of everyone's labor then redistributed it "in accordance with the Goddess' will" among the people in ... less than equitable amounts.

While not a perfect comparison, I think this maps on pretty well to Allanak. Nenyuk is the means by which the state collects a massive amount of everyone's labor, and then the state redistributes that "in accordnance with the Highlord's will" and out of that shake ... it turns out poor people are robbed blind and the nobles and templarate get really, really rich. GMH's have the bartering chip of skilled labor with which to carve themselves out a class above commoners but below nobles ... in a sense becoming the Uncle Tom's of the state's plantation ... and everyone else gets screwed.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on August 03, 2015, 09:51:59 PM
Just seems like another disincentive for doing anything. Why bother to earn more than a minimum of coin. Why give a crap if someone offers you money if your pouch already has 150 coins in it.

This sums up my thoughts on the change itself.

My characters rarely buy anything after about the ~3 days played mark.  They have gear, and skills to survive off of.  Anything extra is just icing on the cake, in case the need for some future luxury came up.  So now I'll drop an emergency fund in the bank, and not save anything past that.  Woo, now my character will spend his monthly pay on 6 drinks at the Gaj, instead of just 3.  Okay.

This, plus the comment about income disparity. Casual players already have it rough enough. This makes it even rougher.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: AdamBlue on August 03, 2015, 10:00:23 PM
I'm not thinking about modern American banks exclusively, I'm rolling Renaissance banks and even early guild banks into my analysis.  I will admit that I'm not familiar with banking practice in Babylon or any other sufficiently awful premodern society.  But I was under the impression that what they had there functioned moreso as vaults and treasuries rather than a proper bank.

You could also read Financing Civilization, by William N. Goetzmann.

It lays it out pretty well using the ancient city of Uruk as an example. Basically ... the temple dedicated to the Goddess collected 100% of everyone's labor then redistributed it "in accordance with the Goddess' will" among the people in ... less than equitable amounts.

While not a perfect comparison, I think this maps on pretty well to Allanak. Nenyuk is the means by which the state collects a massive amount of everyone's labor, and then the state redistributes that "in accordnance with the Highlord's will" and out of that shake ... it turns out poor people are robbed blind and the nobles and templarate get really, really rich. GMH's have the bartering chip of skilled labor with which to carve themselves out a class above commoners but below nobles ... in a sense becoming the Uncle Tom's of the state's plantation ... and everyone else gets screwed.

In the same text you talk about, 'Financing Civilization', the temple of the goddess was the entire governmental system. They created the currency, redistributed it. It is nothing like Allanak. Allanak is ruled by Templarite, Noble, and Merchant houses. Uruk was controlled by a single 'big government system'. It would be a better comparison if the Templarate owned and controlled the banks in that case.
In the same text you refer to, it later speaks of the Merchants of Ur who gave loans and collected the interest on a yearly basis. They had basic ideas of interest and indeed had many scholars at the time that understood at least the principles of economics.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Clearsighted on August 03, 2015, 10:11:48 PM
Someone has to replace the sponsored lieutenant when they fall down a hole.

I bet cha once that starts happening folks will settle down about that particular complaint  :)
Doubt it, since only 2 people wanted to play someone boxed into Lieutenant for their entire lifetime.

I'm sure there are plenty that would've enjoyed the opportunity, but aren't willing to store/screw over their current role to chase the next big thing.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: musashi on August 03, 2015, 10:22:07 PM
In the same text you talk about, 'Financing Civilization', the temple of the goddess was the entire governmental system. They created the currency, redistributed it. It is nothing like Allanak. Allanak is ruled by Templarite, Noble, and Merchant houses. Uruk was controlled by a single 'big government system'. It would be a better comparison if the Templarate owned and controlled the banks in that case.
In the same text you refer to, it later speaks of the Merchants of Ur who gave loans and collected the interest on a yearly basis. They had basic ideas of interest and indeed had many scholars at the time that understood at least the principles of economics.

I said it was not a perfect comparison. But Allanak is not ruled by templarate, nobles, and merchant houses. The helpfile on Allanak makes it pretty clear.

Quote from: help allanak
Every whim of Highlord Tektolnes instantly becomes Allanaki law, and his templar soldier-priests enforce it with brutal efficiency. The nobles of the city are the Highlord's puppets, their lives spent gathering popular support and serving in a Senate whose decisions are somehow always in perfect accord with His Gloriousness's latest decree.

Allanak is ruled by the Highlord, and his power is not distributed into several branches of government to ensure checks and balances.
The idea that the senate or the great merchant houses are in charge, is illusory.

Any attempt at political upheaval in the game's history has been met with dragons in the sky and a mass extermination event targeting the opposition.



That aside, though ... the point I was buttressing was that while I am sure Nenyuk will try to maximize capital, (the same way the usurers of Uruk did) I imagine they are limited in their capacity to do that by the state in which they operate (the same way the usurers of Uruk were).
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Synthesis on August 03, 2015, 11:19:54 PM
I'm at 10k, 15%.

Zero fucks given, personally.  The only reason I have that much in the first place is because you can't buy more 1337 gear past a certain point, without looking like a total douche.

I don't know how this is getting pagerolled so hard.

So much crying...if you got the skills to scrape together that much phat lewt, 15% ain't shit.  20% ain't shit.  Hell, I could take all my coins out, bury them in the desert, and carry on like it didn't fucking matter, because it doesn't.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Suhuy on August 03, 2015, 11:57:32 PM

Hmmm, but from a meta perspective I really like the thought of nobles starting to carry lots of coins. Think of how much more tempting targets they would make, despite the absurd degree of danger?

But that's the problem, carrying a ton of coins doesn't make any sense!  Coin is super heavy, and that's the last thing a noble would tote around.  WTB tokens/writs worth more, that can be redeemed at the bank (with a fee on the issuing of the token/writ, rather than redemption).

Maybe not every coin is worth one obsidian piece only. Perhaps there are 25-piece coins and 50-piece coins, etc.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: AdamBlue on August 03, 2015, 11:58:52 PM
I'm at 10k, 15%.

Zero fucks given, personally.  The only reason I have that much in the first place is because you can't buy more 1337 gear past a certain point, without looking like a total douche.

I don't know how this is getting pagerolled so hard.

So much crying...if you got the skills to scrape together that much phat lewt, 15% ain't shit.  20% ain't shit.  Hell, I could take all my coins out, bury them in the desert, and carry on like it didn't fucking matter, because it doesn't.

Honestly?
It just drives me fffuuuccking nuts because THAT IS NOT HOW BANKS WORK. ICly my character hardly fucking cares. OOCly, it just drives me nuts because people don't understand the implications of how much of a fucking problem this is going to be.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Case on August 04, 2015, 12:07:35 AM
I am angry about virtual banks
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Bushranger on August 04, 2015, 12:10:04 AM
Nenyuk in operation!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DT7bX-B1Mg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DT7bX-B1Mg)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Malken on August 04, 2015, 12:20:54 AM
Make it fair, unnerf silky black braies and lilac dresses plz
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Taijan on August 04, 2015, 12:27:17 AM
(http://i59.tinypic.com/2d7vejb.jpg)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: MeTekillot on August 04, 2015, 12:31:46 AM
It's not the end of the world.

But you can see it from here.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: musashi on August 04, 2015, 12:34:54 AM
It just drives me fffuuuccking nuts because THAT IS NOT HOW BANKS WORK.

 ???

Sure, it's not how any modern banks work in a capitalist economy.

But my immersions are more affected by the way our mounts poop but never have to eat, yet we have to eat but never poop.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Erythil on August 04, 2015, 12:35:13 AM

Hmmm, but from a meta perspective I really like the thought of nobles starting to carry lots of coins. Think of how much more tempting targets they would make, despite the absurd degree of danger?

But that's the problem, carrying a ton of coins doesn't make any sense!  Coin is super heavy, and that's the last thing a noble would tote around.  WTB tokens/writs worth more, that can be redeemed at the bank (with a fee on the issuing of the token/writ, rather than redemption).

Maybe not every coin is worth one obsidian piece only. Perhaps there are 25-piece coins and 50-piece coins, etc.

Even if I am explicitly told it is otherwise, I will continue to believe that the coinage is in multiple denominations.  I refuse to believe that people are carrying around thousands of chunky pieces of rock in their pocket.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: valeria on August 04, 2015, 12:51:15 AM
I know that won't belay the order for gathering the pitchforks, but maybe it is worth mentioning that we do plan to deal with social tiers and we also plan to make further changes to this.  You are seeing the guts/foundation of a new system.  These will be incremental changes enacted over time.

That's actually helpful.  Really, the only reason I'm against the change as implemented is that it feels backward on two levels.  OOCly, you have your people running plots and giving people things to do that are getting hit the hardest because they're frequently moving large amounts of money around to make fun stuff for other people to do. ICly, why are those people getting hit in the first place.  Sure, they could put it in a box in their estate, but why should they have to.  It makes very little sense why Nenyuk is telling a templar to get fucked.  You'd think the templarate would just say lol no.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Mordiggian on August 04, 2015, 01:06:23 AM
Guys. Chill.

We will be monitoring the effects of this and Nessalin just set up some super neat tools that make it much easier to monitor PC wealth.

This change will make life harder for some people. That is okay. It will make life easier for some people. That is also okay. It may not work out the way we hope. That is also okay because if it turns out that is the case, we can make adjustments. It may work out the way we hope. That would be neat. Changes to systems like the economy can't be simulated on the test port. This means small changes with limited scope are much safer.

If you are a casual player, you probably shouldn't worry. You quite likely fall into the lowest bank fee brackets. If you are worried about some sort of wealth disparity, rejoice in the fact that the guy you hate who salts for 13 hours a day is probably facing much stiffer fees.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on August 04, 2015, 01:24:34 AM
It just drives me fffuuuccking nuts because THAT IS NOT HOW BANKS WORK.

 ???

Sure, it's not how any modern banks work in a capitalist economy.

But my immersions are more affected by the way our mounts poop but never have to eat, yet we have to eat but never poop.

Temporal space warp. We eat, so mounts can poop.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Suhuy on August 04, 2015, 01:39:16 AM
Quote from: Mordiggian
Nobles are the best positioned to disregard this change regardless of personal wealth, because mostly secure noble estates are a thing.

But why would a merchant house institute a policy which results in them losing their best clients? I suppose we can look at it as something of a suspension of disbelief scenario. No code will be perfect and sometimes we all have to apply a bit of suspension of disbelief to the situation anyway. But I think there are workable solutions here that would still retain the initial idea of Nenyuk charging for their services (which they should do! I'm definitely on board with that).
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: musashi on August 04, 2015, 01:45:36 AM
But why would a merchant house institute a policy which results in them losing their best clients?

I think it's easier to get your head around if you look at Nenyuk as a tool of the state rather than a business trying to compete with other business for the patronage of the state.

In my mind, Nenyuk is not trying to woo the templarate or the nobility as customers. They are doing the bidding of the nobility and the templarate in order for political cover ... which they then use to slum lord over the poor who can't oppose them.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Suhuy on August 04, 2015, 01:52:37 AM
Actually, yeah, I guess I can see the logic in that. Thanks, musashi dude! :)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: MeTekillot on August 04, 2015, 02:05:53 AM
So the solution to a noble getting wombo-combo'd by bank fees is to hide it under your bed?
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: musashi on August 04, 2015, 02:06:47 AM
So the solution to a noble getting wombo-combo'd by bank fees is to hide it under your bed?

Till staff add more tweaks to have the code reflect favoritism to the high socioeconomic classes ... yes?
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Mordiggian on August 04, 2015, 04:01:54 AM
The second wealthiest PC in the database is from the great House Kohmar ^_^
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 04, 2015, 08:17:36 AM
Quote from: Mordiggian
Nobles are the best positioned to disregard this change regardless of personal wealth, because mostly secure noble estates are a thing.

But why would a merchant house institute a policy which results in them losing their best clients?

What are they going to do, start their own bank?
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 04, 2015, 08:37:13 AM
I'd like to see nobles and templars waived of the fee. Aside from the upper crust, however, I think this is an excellent thing. Once you fully understand how it works, you realize that what this does is pretty simple, and not that bad. Assuming I understand it based on my own experience, you have to be goofy rich to get a 20 percent tax. Most accounts will be way below a single percent.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: valeria on August 04, 2015, 08:54:27 AM
Quote from: Mordiggian
Nobles are the best positioned to disregard this change regardless of personal wealth, because mostly secure noble estates are a thing.

But why would a merchant house institute a policy which results in them losing their best clients?

What are they going to do, start their own bank?

Or just take over the bank. You now have Bank of Allanak.  If you don't like it, talk to Tek.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Bushranger on August 04, 2015, 08:59:41 AM
I would suggest a bank heist but unfortunately blasting powder was removed because it was too powerful :(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g_GeQR8fJo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g_GeQR8fJo)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Miko on August 04, 2015, 09:41:41 AM
seeing as I have withdrawn coin a total of one time in the past three months I think 20% is totally reasonable. I have never found myself constantly withdrawing coin. This is a fair change for what is still RISK free permanent coin storage.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: MeTekillot on August 04, 2015, 09:43:53 AM
In other news, I don't understand how people die from starvation, because my character just ate.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 04, 2015, 10:07:04 AM
Quote from: Mordiggian
Nobles are the best positioned to disregard this change regardless of personal wealth, because mostly secure noble estates are a thing.

But why would a merchant house institute a policy which results in them losing their best clients? I suppose we can look at it as something of a suspension of disbelief scenario. No code will be perfect and sometimes we all have to apply a bit of suspension of disbelief to the situation anyway. But I think there are workable solutions here that would still retain the initial idea of Nenyuk charging for their services (which they should do! I'm definitely on board with that).

In a world like Zalanthas, I don't really think this requires a suspension of disbelief.

I feel it is pretty IC.

Is it realistic by modern day first world standards? Absolutely not. Chase or BOA obviously aren't going to charge super high fees to their largest account holders.

In Zalanthas though, where people kill each other constantly and the best illusion of safety and law we have is a semi-openly corrupt system of sword swingers and sorcerer mages.....well....those really wealthy people have a lot more to lose....it is worth it to them to put that money somewhere that the rest of the savage world can't get to it.

It's not like putting $240,000 under your mattress like old Uncle Larry used to because he didn't trust banks IRL. It's more like trying put $240,000 under your mattress if you live in the middle of war-torn Burma and face the possibility of a raid on your village every single day of your life.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: nessalin on August 04, 2015, 10:07:16 AM
To put things in perspective, the current breakdown is that on withdrawal there's a 50 coin minimum fee, regardless of percentage based on balance.

Under 2000 coins, no percent.

2,000-4,999 is 10%
5,000-14,999 is 15%
15,000-29,999 is 20%
30,000-infinityandbeyond is 25%
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on August 04, 2015, 10:10:02 AM
Considering 1000 coins is a month's rent for a shitty little hole in the wall apartment, I think those brackets need to be adjusted.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 04, 2015, 10:12:28 AM
Considering 1000 coins is a month's rent for a shitty little hole in the wall apartment, I think those brackets need to be adjusted.

Seeing as how Nenyuk actually runs the leasing of apartments in the Known world, I could see a future change being something like....

balance


"You have 5,000 coins in your account."
"You are a lease holder with Nenyuk, so your account fees are halved. Nenyuk appreciates your business. Any withdraws you make will be charged a 7.5% fee for my time."


Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Synthesis on August 04, 2015, 10:13:37 AM
Considering 1000 coins is a month's rent for a shitty little hole in the wall apartment, I think those brackets need to be adjusted.

Carrying 1,000 coins in your inventory isn't a huge hassle for anyone except maybe elves with poor strength.

And there are no elves with poor strength, because they all suicide ASAP.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: nauta on August 04, 2015, 10:14:48 AM
Considering 1000 coins is a month's rent for a shitty little hole in the wall apartment, I think those brackets need to be adjusted.

Um, I've never paid over 500 for an apartment.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 04, 2015, 10:19:21 AM
Considering 1000 coins is a month's rent for a shitty little hole in the wall apartment, I think those brackets need to be adjusted.

Um, I've never paid over 500 for an apartment.

I think a more interesting point to be made is that this is going to suck the big one for already underpaid merchant House employees.

How much money does a merchant House hunter make?

Their first year...usually nothing.

Their second year...400 - 500 coins a month?

But this is also making the assumption we WANT those people using banks. We may very well NOT want them using them.

I feel like one of the big features of this change (that I personally like) was to get people to carry more of their personal wealth on them or figure out ways to secure their personal wealth that is not 100% safe.

Why? Because it opens up more bait for raiders and thieves, and raiders and thieves are FUN to encounter, and FUN to play.

A lot more fun to play than 100% safe bank accounts for free.

Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 04, 2015, 10:20:18 AM
What I would LOVE is if someone opened up a little "bank on the side" with lower fees than Nenyuk for common people. That would open up so many doors for so much fun and potential hijinks.

The problem is I think it would take about 13 seconds for a staff animated Nenyuk NPC to come crush that person and shit all over them immediately.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 04, 2015, 10:30:46 AM
Yeah, if you're referring to the price at the apartment masters (which is for 125 days, a half-month), all are definitely under that.

If you mean monthly (doubling that amount) yes.  There are many apartments that are over 1000 per month.  There are also several that are very cheap.  Personal space is at a premium; so is security.  Different clans have different amounts of offsetting for that (pay or quarters as compensation).

What I would LOVE is if someone opened up a little "bank on the side" with lower fees than Nenyuk for common people. That would open up so many doors for so much fun and potential hijinks.

Cool idea!

Quote
The problem is I think it would take about 13 seconds for a staff animated Nenyuk NPC to come crush that person and shit all over them immediately.

Oh, right.  I forgot.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 04, 2015, 10:35:02 AM
(http://rs1382.pbsrc.com/albums/ah246/lynnigan1/clint-nod_zps0362897e.gif~c200)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on August 04, 2015, 10:42:27 AM
Considering 1000 coins is a month's rent for a shitty little hole in the wall apartment, I think those brackets need to be adjusted.

Um, I've never paid over 500 for an apartment.

The "rent" is a half-month of rent. Double that and you have the true monthly rent of an apartment.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: nessalin on August 04, 2015, 10:43:10 AM
It is worth clarifying that we really do get to decide where we put our effort into the game.  Really, we do.  Complaints, even when poorly dressed up as suggestions, implying to the contrary don't improve how receptive we'll be to player feedback in the future.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 04, 2015, 10:46:00 AM
It is worth clarifying that we really do get to decide where we put our effort into the game.  Really, we do.  Complaints, even when poorly dressed up as suggestions, implying to the contrary don't improve how receptive we'll be to player feedback in the future.

I feel bad for this man now.

For what it's worth, I think this change is the shit. I've wanted this for so many years. I love you man.

Desertman - January 18th, 2012.

Quote
Free Banking:

There may be some in-game explanation for why Nenyuk offers what seems to be a free service to the populace of Zalanthas, but because I don't know what that reason is, it just looks like a free service to me.

There might not be free drinks of water in Zalanthas, but there is free banking, or at least it appears that way.

I guess one explanation might be that with the high rate of  mortality in the population a lot of bank balances get absorbed by Nenyuk/taken over when their owners die and this is how Nenyuk makes a lot of profit. I agree, that makes perfect sense actually.

That being said, its still not very much fun and doesn't seem to add anything to the game, and there is a lot of potential to add to the game here.

As already mentioned, I would love to see Nenyuk charge you a fee for transferring your account balances from city to city, but that would require the end of universal banking so we won't go into that anymore.

What if Nenyuk charged you a monthly fee for "handling" your account balances for you? What would be a proper Zalanthan banking fee for a commoner's account? Twenty percent? Thirty percent? What if being a member of a House got you a break on these fees? It would make House employment that much more appealing. And of course Houses in general, both Noble and Merchant would receive big cuts, or possibly still receive free banking.

What if being a breed or an elf made your banking fees higher? Hmmm. So on and so forth.

That being said, if Nenyuk charges you a monthly fee, why even leave your coins with Nenyuk? Well obviously because Nenyuk's guards make sure your balance stays where its at, and not in the pockets of thieves and raiders right? You let Nenyuk take its thirty percent every month and in return the world of cuthroats dont get the full one hundred percent, and possibly your life in the process of taking it. That seems very Zalanthan to me.

This would open up a window for things like, crime bosses and loansharks providing a under the table banking setup for a slightly lower monthly fee or people choosing to keep their fortunes on their person, or under lock and key somewhere else. But you know, locks aren't perfect, and you can't always trust the people you hire to guard your fortune for you. Thats the risk, and everything in Zalanthas should have some sort of risk.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Marauder Moe on August 04, 2015, 10:49:17 AM
Did not expect this to be an 11-page discussion...
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on August 04, 2015, 10:50:19 AM
I appreciate that Nessalin. We're all human over here.

It's equally frustrating for players - who are the lifeblood of the game and who actually experience how things are on the ground floor and are directly impacted by these changes - to try and offer constructive criticism and get the "we decide where we put our effort in" line and be ignored.

Or to have a perfectly valid concern dismissed because we didn't spend 5 more minutes agonizing over the perfect way to phrase it.

I try to be tactful. Maybe I should use more smiley faces.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on August 04, 2015, 10:55:25 AM
Yeah, if you're referring to the price at the apartment masters (which is for 125 days, a half-month), all are definitely under that.

If you mean monthly (doubling that amount) yes.  There are many apartments that are over 1000 per month.  There are also several that are very cheap.  Personal space is at a premium; so is security.  Different clans have different amounts of offsetting for that (pay or quarters as compensation).

Then we need more shitty hole in the wall apartments because sometimes your only options are "more personal space than you needed or wanted, or nowhere to put your stuff at all ever". Character concepts do not always jive with joining a clan just so you have a locker to fill up with all the crap you have to carry. And at least two apartment buildings with a ton of apartments in them have been made off-limits to independant characters. Realistically you'd be able to just shack up with a bunch of virtual buddies but codewise you can't do that.

So you're stuck renting what you can find or constantly juggling large bags at VERY HEAVY!
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 04, 2015, 11:01:52 AM
Yeah, if you're referring to the price at the apartment masters (which is for 125 days, a half-month), all are definitely under that.

If you mean monthly (doubling that amount) yes.  There are many apartments that are over 1000 per month.  There are also several that are very cheap.  Personal space is at a premium; so is security.  Different clans have different amounts of offsetting for that (pay or quarters as compensation).

Then we need more shitty hole in the wall apartments because sometimes your only options are "more personal space than you needed or wanted, or nowhere to put your stuff at all ever". Character concepts do not always jive with joining a clan just so you have a locker to fill up with all the crap you have to carry. And at least two apartment buildings with a ton of apartments in them have been made off-limits to independant characters. Realistically you'd be able to just shack up with a bunch of virtual buddies but codewise you can't do that.

So you're stuck renting what you can find or constantly juggling large bags at VERY HEAVY!

I have also wondered why some of the more crappy places don't let you put "more" people on your lease. I can understand the "finer" places don't want you shacking up with 10 of your rinthi buds to sleep on the floor in your squalor and ruin the place. Makes sense.

Why do they care if you all huddle together like some sick pack of rats on the floor of their already crappy craphole? You can't hurt what's already a piece of junk really.

Seems like an unnecessary restriction. (Unless there is a reason in the code for it.)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 04, 2015, 11:06:40 AM
Well, of course they want you to rent more apartments.

But yes, realistically, no reason to not add roomies. Maybe not ten, though. You don't want a tiny apartment becoming a clan hall.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on August 04, 2015, 11:08:10 AM
Well, of course they want you to rent more apartments.

But yes, realistically, no reason to not add roomies. Maybe not ten, though. You don't want a tiny apartment becoming a clan hall.

10 people is not a clan. It's a family with two moms, one dad, one layabout uncle, and six kids.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 04, 2015, 11:10:58 AM
Well, of course they want you to rent more apartments.

But yes, realistically, no reason to not add roomies. Maybe not ten, though. You don't want a tiny apartment becoming a clan hall.

10 people is not a clan. It's a family with two moms, one dad, one layabout uncle, and six kids.

Truth, unless it's a little pack of pickpockets or something, which would be awesome. 7DV, let me run my little clan of pickpocket children man. You killing me here bro.

(Seriously though, you run into space issues with just two people on a lease. What sort of clan would you have with 10 people on one lease? The kind where everyone gets to store one pouch of rocks and that's it? Would be such a shit clan lol.)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 04, 2015, 11:11:38 AM
A concern can be both perfectly valid and also fairly minor in the grand scheme of things.

If you have an apartment that costs you 1000 per month, and you store your money in the bank, then:

For your bank account less than 2000 coins, you are out 50 coins each time you pay rent.
For your bank account 2000-4999 coins, you are out 100 coins each time you pay rent.
For your bank account 5000-14999 coins, you are out 150 coins each time you pay rent.
For your bank account 15000-29999 coins, you are out 200 coins each time you pay rent.
For your bank account 30000+ coins, you are out 250 coins each time you pay rent.

Might we still change things?  Yes, we might change this along with the other changes coming as well.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 04, 2015, 11:16:53 AM
Before we make adjustments to the numbers of people that can to rent with any particular renter (pretty easy to do, just need to review and identify which places would benefit from it/go through a proposal for it to be sure there's nothing else we want to change with apartments while we are in there), we probably would want to automate the process of apartment lease ownership transfer.  That would increase, and the only way to fix that now is a manual fix.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Suhuy on August 04, 2015, 11:19:56 AM
Quote from: Mordiggian
Nobles are the best positioned to disregard this change regardless of personal wealth, because mostly secure noble estates are a thing.

But why would a merchant house institute a policy which results in them losing their best clients? I suppose we can look at it as something of a suspension of disbelief scenario. No code will be perfect and sometimes we all have to apply a bit of suspension of disbelief to the situation anyway. But I think there are workable solutions here that would still retain the initial idea of Nenyuk charging for their services (which they should do! I'm definitely on board with that).

In a world like Zalanthas, I don't really think this requires a suspension of disbelief.

I feel it is pretty IC.

Is it realistic by modern day first world standards? Absolutely not.

Actually, I think what Lauramars and others mentioned earlier suggests that the opposite is true. The new banking system is suitable to first world standards and is not fitting with a harsh world environment. When you're asking the rich to contribute more BECAUSE they are rich, you're thinking very modern indeed. Fairness for all should not be an every day trait on Zalanthas.

Understand, I'm only being mildly critical about this, however, because I support the overall idea which has been implemented, and I believe the banking system should cost for its services (just like stabling an animal for endless months at a time should cost more than 20 coins). But it does seem like Nenyuk would simply lose all their noble customers when they have a free, 99% safe alternative to the bank. If the Great Merchant House is fine with that, more power to them. To most merchants a noble is the sort of customer you should be willing to go to great lengths to prevent any loss of business. They're buying your yachts and private jets after all while everyone else is small time by comparison.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 04, 2015, 11:22:11 AM
But, players, D. Not NPCs or VNPCs. We're talking about players here. You can't have a PC family that large.

On another note, I take back what I said about silly large accounts. You don't have to have a silly large account at all to incur the 20 percent tax. I actually got taxed 50 percent during testing of this, with one of the withdrawals. SO yeh, this new tax thing is harsh.

Still, I'm actually alright with this. Why? Because this motivates me to go spend it on shit, like booze, and spice, and tattoos, and gear, and smoozing. And if I want to save up for something big, I still have that nice secure place to store it, for a hefty protection fee, of course. I still wish coin was represented by gems, though. Obsidian chinks - meh.

Staff, next step? Making things wear out.

Weapons, on a hit counter. Flags: Worn, worn out, useless. Blunt weapons take longer to wear out. None of these can be repaired if worn out. Repair kits, or, a weapon repair skill, remove the used flag and reset the hit counter if used before a weapon becomes worn out.

Clothing, on an outdoors room movement counter. Worn, worn out, ragged. Can be repaired to remove flags if clothing does not hit worn out. After clothing hits worn out, can be repaired to patched flag.

Tools - wait, you're on this. Alright, good.

More avenues to spend coin on needed things. Yes, let's do it.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 04, 2015, 11:24:39 AM
On another note, I take back what I said about silly large accounts. You don't have to have a silly large account at all to incur the 20 percent tax. I actually got taxed 50 percent during testing of this, with one of the withdrawals. SO yeh, this new tax thing is harsh.

That would be a bug, unless you were withdrawing 100 coins.  Then, yes, you got charged appropriately.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 04, 2015, 11:24:45 AM
Quote from: Mordiggian
Nobles are the best positioned to disregard this change regardless of personal wealth, because mostly secure noble estates are a thing.

But why would a merchant house institute a policy which results in them losing their best clients? I suppose we can look at it as something of a suspension of disbelief scenario. No code will be perfect and sometimes we all have to apply a bit of suspension of disbelief to the situation anyway. But I think there are workable solutions here that would still retain the initial idea of Nenyuk charging for their services (which they should do! I'm definitely on board with that).

In a world like Zalanthas, I don't really think this requires a suspension of disbelief.

I feel it is pretty IC.

Is it realistic by modern day first world standards? Absolutely not.

Actually, I think what Lauramars and others mentioned earlier suggests that the opposite is true. The new banking system is suitable to first world standards and is not fitting with a harsh world environment. When you're asking the rich to contribute more BECAUSE they are rich, you're thinking very modern indeed. Fairness for all should not be an every day trait on Zalanthas.

Understand, I'm only being mildly critical about this, however, because I support the overall idea which has been implemented, and I believe the banking system should cost for its services (just like stabling an animal for endless months at a time should cost more than 20 coins). But it does seem like Nenyuk would simply lose all their noble customers when they have a free, 99% safe alternative to the bank. If the Great Merchant House is fine with that, more power to them. To most merchants a noble is the sort of customer you should be willing to go to great lengths to prevent any loss of business. They're buying your yachts and private jets after all while everyone else is small time by comparison.

I agree with your assessment.

I'm just saying, I can see a way to also justify the way it currently is. "Nenyuk knows the rich have far more to lose in this dangerous world. Nenyuk knows the rich can afford it and will pay it if they charge it.".

Besides, who's to say that behind the scenes Kadius, Salarr, and Kurac aren't getting some serious tax breaks or whatever through Nenyuk on their holdings etc at the end of every year to balance out what appears to be high banking fees?

It really comes down to how you want to look at it and what sort of excuses you want to use to justify your point of view.

Your point of view is absolutely valid and I would be fine if it went that way too. I'm just saying, I can think of excuses for WHY it is the way it is now too.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 04, 2015, 11:26:00 AM
On another note, I take back what I said about silly large accounts. You don't have to have a silly large account at all to incur the 20 percent tax. I actually got taxed 50 percent during testing of this, with one of the withdrawals. SO yeh, this new tax thing is harsh.

That would be a bug, unless you were withdrawing 100 coins.  Then, yes, you got charged appropriately.

Haha, that man withdrew 100 coins....I did the same damn thing. Also complained it was 50%. *snicker*
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on August 04, 2015, 11:26:25 AM
well I'm just holding out hope that more IC realism & awareness of social status will be worked into the bank fees, as Nyr stated up thread.  I don't think we need to search too hard for IC explanations of why large account holding nobles are being robbed of 20-25% of their net worth if that's something that's on the docket to be changed.  It doesn't make a lick of IC sense, but neither did Nenyuk not charging a fee at all.

sometimes the code is just the code.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Beethoven on August 04, 2015, 11:26:41 AM
Quote from: Mordiggian
Nobles are the best positioned to disregard this change regardless of personal wealth, because mostly secure noble estates are a thing.

But why would a merchant house institute a policy which results in them losing their best clients? I suppose we can look at it as something of a suspension of disbelief scenario. No code will be perfect and sometimes we all have to apply a bit of suspension of disbelief to the situation anyway. But I think there are workable solutions here that would still retain the initial idea of Nenyuk charging for their services (which they should do! I'm definitely on board with that).

In a world like Zalanthas, I don't really think this requires a suspension of disbelief.

I feel it is pretty IC.

Is it realistic by modern day first world standards? Absolutely not.

Actually, I think what Lauramars and others mentioned earlier suggests that the opposite is true. The new banking system is suitable to first world standards and is not fitting with a harsh world environment. When you're asking the rich to contribute more BECAUSE they are rich, you're thinking very modern indeed. Fairness for all should not be an every day trait on Zalanthas.

Understand, I'm only being mildly critical about this, however, because I support the overall idea which has been implemented, and I believe the banking system should cost for its services (just like stabling an animal for endless months at a time should cost more than 20 coins). But it does seem like Nenyuk would simply lose all their noble customers when they have a free, 99% safe alternative to the bank. If the Great Merchant House is fine with that, more power to them. To most merchants a noble is the sort of customer you should be willing to go to great lengths to prevent any loss of business. They're buying your yachts and private jets after all while everyone else is small time by comparison.

I'm 100% with you here, but Nyr has already mentioned that changes are in the works that will take social hierarchy into consideration. What we're seeing right now is just the bones of the system that's going to be fleshed out soon.

I don't know what staff has in mind, but if their plan is to have rich, unaffiliated commoners punished more than anyone, GMHs have things a bit more lax, and the nobility and templarate receive very low fees indeed, then I will be pleased as punch with that.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on August 04, 2015, 11:27:53 AM
Another example of something that needed to be rolled out after other fixes had been made. What's left over from and what goes into a craft, the cost of raw materials vs finished, cost of tools - it's a convoluted process and I wouldn't envy the initial task, but you whip out a few excel spreadsheets and do some formula magic and you could eventually tweak everything until it mostly made sense. Then you gradually implement it in batches throughout the game, then add in hard-coded stuff like tools and wear and tear and banking fees.

Yes it's a huge task, but a virtual economy is never going to be simple. If you're going to fix it, then make the effort to fix it rather than band-aid it until it sort of works.

Do I appreciate that a lot of work went into it? Yes. Do I appreciate that steps are being taken and something is being done? Yes.

All I ask for is some care to how making these sorts of changes affects players on the ground level and doing things in the right order, instead of from easiest to hardest.

That's all I ask. I guess it's a lot.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Suhuy on August 04, 2015, 11:31:04 AM

sometimes the code is just the code.

True dat. It's what I meant when I was talking about suspension of disbelief.

And to follow your suggestion, Desertman, a noble PC could always make up an IC excuse as to why they can't safely keep their money in their 99% safe bedrooms. Maybe they have a virtual relative who breaks in and steals their spice all the time. Now they're going to steal even more if they don't cough up the fees required to store it with Nenyuk!
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 04, 2015, 11:32:57 AM

sometimes the code is just the code.

True dat. It's what I meant when I was talking about suspension of disbelief.

And to follow your suggestion, Desertman, a noble PC could always make up an IC excuse as to why they can't safely keep their money in their 99% safe bedrooms. Maybe they have a virtual relative who breaks in and steals their spice all the time. Now they're going to steal even more if they don't cough up the fees required to store it with Nenyuk!

That's so funny because I was actually hired by one noble to steal something from another noble's room back in the day....they were part of the same House and they let me into their compound to do it ahahah.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Suhuy on August 04, 2015, 11:34:51 AM
Yes, but just to point it out, Dman, your situation is the 1% of the time it'll actually happen IC by PCs. Rare instances aside, nobles will have to fabricate virtual reasons because, yes, their rooms are probably 99% safe.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 04, 2015, 11:36:57 AM
Yes, but just to point it out, Dman, your situation is the 1% of the time it'll actually happen IC by PCs. Rare instances aside, nobles will have to fabricate virtual reasons because, yes, their rooms are probably 99% safe.

Oh I agree, I just thought that was funny.

(What I was sent to steal also ended up not being there.)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: LauraMars on August 04, 2015, 11:38:24 AM
Heh, when I played a noble, the biggest threat to my belongings were all my burglar classed cousins!
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Beethoven on August 04, 2015, 11:39:29 AM
Heh, when I played a noble, the biggest threat to my belongings were all my burglar classed cousins!

They just wanted to look you over carefully, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Suhuy on August 04, 2015, 11:43:01 AM
And there's nothing wrong with fabricating virtual reasons. It gives players opportunities to do something half the time, rather than sit and idle in a tavern. Want to visit Red Storm, but have no IC reason to go? Maybe your virtual aunt is sick and you need a remedy found only in the village.

But in the case of rich nobles and merchants, it needs to be understood this is being done because of the current game mechanics, not because it makes sense for a banking house to want to lose all their valuable customers. If someone on staff has already mentioned this is being adjusted, then cool.

And one needn't be a burglar in order to break into a family member's home, Laura. Only in the coded world of this MUD. Breaking into a sibling's room reminds me of the TV series the Borgias, as children to the Pope the children were practically royalty but they still pulled it off.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Barzalene on August 04, 2015, 11:43:26 AM
Thank you!

I love when we ask for change and get it.

I am trusting that if we try this for a few months and it needs tweaking staff will tweak. If not I will bitch loudly and whine. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. But let's see how it goes, you know.

I am worried about my pc's personal finances, but really hopeful about the change generally. Again, what I am saying is thank you staff.


Modiggitty, what does that Byn Lt get paid? I love my current pc, but I asked for vertical and I hate that you feel that it's not appreciated. You should talk with my clan staff. They might want to trade me to you in return for a turtle. I could Lt. The fuck out of the Byn.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Suhuy on August 04, 2015, 11:51:29 AM
Just to clarify my point earlier. They're not coded burglars if they're virtual.  They're virtual, they're part of the story line and not bound by the limitations of the code. Imagine a noble relative who waits for the maid to finish dusting the hall, then when she's done the noble takes her silver dinner knife and uses it to break the lock (or whatever method there is for a layman to do it in the real world but is not reflected with the code). People do it all the time in movies or novels and no one ever stops and says "they must be a coded burglar cuz otherwise it's not possible". The code also won't let you break a door down with force bur that doesn't mean doors are never broken down with force on Zalanthas. Just for us PCS.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 04, 2015, 11:54:47 AM
All I ask for is some care to how making these sorts of changes affects players on the ground level and doing things in the right order, instead of from easiest to hardest.

That's all I ask. I guess it's a lot.

We do consider how changes affect players on the ground level before making changes.  Sometimes we make additional changes because of how those changes affect players.  This happens every time anything gets debuted.  Some things (by their nature) get deployed all at once because it is self-contained (like a new skill, or a new functionality for a skill, or command emotes for several things, or moons rising and setting).  Some things (by their nature) get deployed in a piecemeal fashion.  This is one of those latter things, not one of those former things.

Do not let "perfect" be the enemy of "good". This is an improvement on the way to more improvements.  There is PC impact (this was in fact the intention) and that was weighed and determined to be an acceptable level of PC impact for staff.  We can and will tweak this and other things as we get more than 24 hours of data.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Beethoven on August 04, 2015, 11:57:09 AM
It must be kind of funny to be playing a noble at the moment. One day, everyone is keeping all their money at the bank because of course, they always have. Nobody wants to lug those hulking bags of 'sid around. The next day, what kind of madman uses the bank? Those fees are ridiculous! It's highway robbery, I tell you! Everyone and their [exotic novelty pet] keeps their obsidian stashed away under their mattress!

Later, maybe the social-hierarchy-friendly tweaks Nyr vaguely alluded to will come into play, and nobles will start always having gone to the bank once again.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: TheWanderer on August 04, 2015, 12:04:50 PM
fees? pfft. #poorpeopleproblems

Code: [Select]
House Nenyuk lunges at you, but its blow is deftly deflected by a salting empire.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 04, 2015, 12:05:04 PM
As I've said before, this is a net awesome change for the game.  My only gripes are relatively minor and I've confident they'll be tweaked and improved on.  

Great work, please don't let perfectionist tendencies detract from the overall win on this!  95% of players are getting the right dose of harshness :)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Eurynomos on August 04, 2015, 12:10:27 PM
Muahahahaha...

This is going exactly as I planned.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Eurynomos on August 04, 2015, 12:18:05 PM
More seriously, I don't think anyone is saying 'Screw off players, you've had your speech, now get on with it!' It's not black and white like that. Ultimately we have to make decisions to move the game forward -- We can't appeal to the player base for every step of the way. We can take what they say after the change has been effected into account, and we will, but again, we ultimately have to decide what to do not based on Player consensus, but Staff consensus.

Our policy is 'Show, don't tell'. It's safe to say we have more plans for the economy in the future -- This is the first of many changes to come. I'd recommend patience, and offering feedback and criticism is encouraged, but it may not necessarily means it effects change on the system.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Barzalene on August 04, 2015, 12:26:44 PM

Fifty thousand coins is just being rich and having access to tons of luxury items. Why do you care if you're losing some of it on a withdrawal? Just make more money. You're clearly good at it.


This is what you're not grasping...  The people who put on those festivals do spend 50k coins, and they don't "make" the money, they accumulate it in stipends over the course of RL months.  By making it take 20% more RL months to accumulate said money, you're making it harder for them to put on more festivals.

Let's say this "I have to spend 50k of my own money as a noble for this festival, and can't use any money from the House to help out with that, and no one else is helping out with the festival, no, it all comes out of my own account" thing is true.

The poorest noble tier (doing nothing else) could raise this much money in 3 IC years by doing nothing except logging in and getting their stipends.  The richest noble tier (doing nothing else) could raise this much in about 1.5 IC years.  If this is the biggest concern, I think they'll be okay waiting a week or two more if they wish to use Nenyuk to store their coin.

I have clearly lucked out with imms. Because I've always gotten the ones who would kick in the last 20% if I came up with the first 80%. I'm looking at you no saying imms. I am looking at you.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on August 04, 2015, 12:28:04 PM
I guess after the arm 2.0 debacle we're still regaining trust on both sides of the fence.

Being burnt doesn't mean we have to resort to information lockdown though. Or being afraid to ever state something in case you can't deliver.

Sometimes it's nice to have things to be excited about. So I'm glad to hear that this is part of a more holistic change.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Eurynomos on August 04, 2015, 12:34:17 PM
It is a good thing to remember there is no 'two sides to the fence'. Staff is comprised of 100% players. We also like playing the game still, and try to do what is best for the game in consideration of that as well. We don't want to make a game that is 100% fun to Staff, and 0% fun to play.

A change like this is one of those changes that is trying to get the game better in line to what it should be -- As it was pointed out, the banking code was basically stock DIKU, with no IC explanation as to why Nenyuk would be offering this service for free beyond the OOC convenience of having your coins stored in a 100% safe environment.

Now, your coins can be stored in that environment, but not free of charge. Other methods can be employed to keep your coins safe, but they will not be 100% safe. This is the way we believe it should be, in the general sense.

More specifically, there are modifications we are interested in that will take more time to code and effect -- We made a list from "easiest to hardest" of what we could implement to effect change. This was the 'easiest', though Nessalin put in a bunch of work to effect this change. We wanted to start broad, generalize, and build a good foundation. From that point, we can get more specific and address specific avenues of change, and make it less of a lumpy, big project.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on August 04, 2015, 01:07:17 PM
People make money?
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: roughneck on August 04, 2015, 01:15:15 PM
The fact that my illiterate commoner with no social insurance number or identification documents can use a bank at all is far-fetched. I think this is a great step in the right direction.

Now, if there was a minimum balance required (5 - 10k) to use the bank, and even steeper fees, I'd think that's even better.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 04, 2015, 01:17:53 PM
I just want banking fees to be an item that comes up in the Allanaki Senate for PC's to get their grubby hands on and play with...  Oh, how much fun it'll be to piss off all of the independents by raising those bank fees, to help pay for some noble's garden, or water fountain...  *cackle*

And, as someone else mentioned on this thread, please let this be the beginning of House Nenyuk becoming a playable merchant house...  I want to play a greedy Zalanthian banker and slumlord so bad.  So bad!!!!!  They even have awesome looking uniforms!
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Ender on August 04, 2015, 01:53:09 PM
Our policy is 'Show, don't tell'. It's safe to say we have more plans for the economy in the future -- This is the first of many changes to come. I'd recommend patience, and offering feedback and criticism is encouraged, but it may not necessarily means it effects change on the system.

I think the problem I have with this system, is when it comes to a major change that fundamentally changes a coded aspect of the game, it's really painful to just blindside players with little to no warning.  Even like a two weeks heads up would be better.  And what would be BEST is to have the change occur ICly.

Changes that completely alter how an IC institution works and is used are JARRING when there's literally no build up or explanation other than "you were all idiots to think it hasn't always run like this."

It's way more fun when you roll out a seemingly punitive change to have a story to go along with it that people can get involved in and excited about.


Knowing there's more changes coming in the future but no clue what they are and how they will effect my PCs and his plans are kinda terrifying.  How do I plan for that?  Knowing one day I could log in after taking a week off at the beach, and my war beetle is dead because a change was rolled out without warning that all beetles need to be paid rent on or will be chopped up in the slaughterhouse.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on August 04, 2015, 01:59:35 PM
It is a good thing to remember there is no 'two sides to the fence'

That is a wonderful sentiment.  Something to strive for, certainly.

It is certainly not the impression that I get. The impression I get is more of an iron curtain than a fence.

More efforts at positive support, actual collaboration and honest communication would "show, not tell" that far more than simply claiming that we're all on the same side.

I'll reiterate that I don't hate the change, but the way it was implemented is symptomatic of these larger issues.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 04, 2015, 02:06:35 PM
Ok.  Well there is no 'two sides to the iron curtain.'

We're all in the gulag together, comrade.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 04, 2015, 02:45:03 PM
LOL.  I wouldn't call staff not having a full time PR guy the equivalent to an iron curtain.    Although, it might not hurt to bring on a staff member whose job is communications.





*Wizturbo begins daydreaming*.......




(http://static3.businessinsider.com/image/5134c5b46bb3f7431f00001c-1200/a-16-year-veteran-of-the-kgb-putin-knows-his-way-around-a-gun-after-his-retirement-in-1991-he-rapidly-rose-through-russian-politics-to-become-top-dog-in-the-worlds-largest-nation.jpg)

[Edit] Vladanyr Putin says, "Tell the players all their fucking sid belongs to Nenyuk.  Those indie merchants are screwed, we're calling their number!   They're going to cry bitter tears.  In fact, make sure our tears collectors are operating at 100% efficiency...I don't want a repeat of the spillage incident of 2012.  And I don't care if the nobles don't like it!  If they want to complain, they can pound sand or move to Red Storm where there is no bank!    

.....

(http://www.etonline.com/media/photo/2014/06/24085331/640_Nichelle_Nichols_Star_T.jpg)

"Fellow players!  Wonderful news!  We've listened to your feedback and decided to begin a campaign to revise the Zalanthian economy to better reflect the harsh setting!   Rejoice!   The first step of this ambitious plan is ready to go, and it involves banking.  Code has been created to allow us to add fees for using House Nenyuk's service!  It's going live today!  We've tuned things based on internal debate, but we'll keep an eye on the effects of these changes and make tweaks if necessary.  Please keep in mind this is just one step of many, so don't be surprised if some of the rough edges on this get smoothed out as we continue to iterate.   Vladanyr Putin loves you, and Commodore Nessalin will be signing autographs in Red's Retreat later this week."

.......


(http://goodereader.s3.amazonaws.com/blog/uploads/images/Cheering-crowd.jpg)


"Vladanyr Putin is the best!  Commodore Nessalin lets make babies!"


......

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02846/putin_2846194b.jpg)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on August 04, 2015, 02:57:24 PM
Symptomatic, I said. Not this lone issue. Maybe I should add "reading comprehension" to that list.

Whatever, guys. Yuk it up.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Synthesis on August 04, 2015, 03:02:12 PM
Man, wizturbo, that's gotta be at least in the top 25 "most amusing posts" on the GDB, ever.

But seriously, it doesn't matter.  There are plenty of games out there with full-time "community support" or "PR" or whatever, and the min-maxers -always- make enough noise to drown out the bullshit doubletalk.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: lostinspace on August 04, 2015, 03:16:19 PM
My first character didn't know about the bank. He carried his life savings (about 3000 sid) with him at all times, in two backpacks. When he rode out he would just strap them to his inix and be fine. It really wasn't an inconvenience, but if he lost his mount, he'd have lost everything.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 04, 2015, 03:19:58 PM
Symptomatic, I said. Not this lone issue. Maybe I should add "reading comprehension" to that list.

Whatever, guys. Yuk it up.

Using the words "iron curtain" is what triggered that.  If you'd said "sometimes the fence feels higher than it should" I think you'd have gotten a different response.  Text communications suck, no tone of voice or subtle inflections to hint at whether a comment is good-natured, ill-spirited, or what have you...so instead people latch on to words like "iron curtain" and assume the rest of the paragraph was said with a ill-spirited tone, even if it wasn't.

Delirium, you're basically my favorite player in Armageddon...so please don't hate me, I just couldn't resist making Nyr-Putin come to life :)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 04, 2015, 03:31:50 PM

But seriously, it doesn't matter.  There are plenty of games out there with full-time "community support" or "PR" or whatever, and the min-maxers -always- make enough noise to drown out the bullshit doubletalk.

I work in the games industry, and I've seen the effects of investment in a community team and top notch PR...it's profound.   It's more about capturing that extra percentage of sentiment.  If a fact-based announcement would receive a 75% positive sentiment, and an expertly wordsmithed announcement would get 85%, that's a pretty substantial difference...40% reduction in negative posts.  The wordsmithed announcement might take a PR/Community person a couple hours to craft, but it saves a lot more time in the long run for the team when it comes to follow up posts, not to mention the positive effects on morale of having 40% less hate.

Just something to think about...

Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Beethoven on August 04, 2015, 03:32:55 PM
Delirium DID just say that she didn't want to have to spend tons of time agonizing over how to oh so carefully phrase things, right?

It should have been VladaNyr Putin, though.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Kismetic on August 04, 2015, 03:49:39 PM
I like to participate in the back and forth until I find myself personally satisfied with an issue.  That makes it easy to skip the next ten rage pages of who-knows-what-or-cares.  But damn if that wasn't hilarious, wizturbo.  ;D
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on August 04, 2015, 04:01:59 PM
No one's going to give up on the bank for long.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Voular on August 04, 2015, 04:15:22 PM
Wouldn't it be more effective to just limit the amount of coin you can deposit? Commoners can max store 5k, nobles 100k, templars 200k. Etc. Or whatever?

This seems like a lot of effort.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 04, 2015, 04:18:10 PM
Symptomatic, I said. Not this lone issue. Maybe I should add "reading comprehension" to that list.

Whatever, guys. Yuk it up.

If you have issues with staff doing things and you think it is systemic or symptomatic of a larger issue (i.e., you bring it up often, despite any reassurances or responses--joking or otherwise--from staff), bring up your issue(s) into a constructive thread appropriate for the board.  (It won't get addressed if it is continually a derail for the threads it is in, after all, and that doesn't help if there is an issue you want to bring up.)

If it is not appropriate for the board or you cannot find a way to make that the case, you can put in a staff complaint (if serious enough) or a question request if you want to talk with us.  In the same way, not bringing it up will just let it fester.  At least you can get it off of your chest! :)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Asanadas on August 04, 2015, 05:11:53 PM
From a developer's standpoint, this solution of "Nobles and Templars can keep their wealth in their compounds" sounds to me as a cop-out from addressing a genuine facet of the economy.

There is no historical or economic root to a bank acting in such a way that it would drive off the nobility and truly wealthy to hoard their currency themselves, aside from a bank being genuinely incompetent. Right now, considering the ballooning penalty, Nenyuk could be considered incompetent for not respecting the social classes defined in-universe.

If I were the prog-bit behind this change, I would go ahead and plan discrepancies based on the player's "social status," in an attempt to respect game documentation and real-world economic evidence. This would also soothe some of the complaints in this thread; instead of this change being arbitrarily harsh, it is now harsh in respect to the game world -- a change that would be cheered.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Ender on August 04, 2015, 05:12:54 PM
I have no issue with this change other than the timing of it and the worry about other changes that are vague and obscure.

My major issue with this may be better served with a loose analogy.

Let's say I like to play baseball, I take it pretty seriously, and I want to be good at it.  I know the rules of baseball so I know if I want to succeed I need to learn how to swing a bat.  What if one day I showed up and the umpires just announce "now you will be swinging a racquet, here's your racquet, go.  Also there are going to be other rules changes that will happen, we'll tell you about them as they happen."  Suddenly I'm stuck in this place where I'm swinging a racquet awkardly because I have not practiced it at all and I don't know how to continue to prepare for playing baseball because I have no idea what rules will be changing.

Lately there's been a lot of big changes to the game that kinda makes me feel like I don't know how to prepare for playing the game I love to play.  A city has been closed, a class has been removed, and now a big bank change has occurred with the promise of more to come.  These changes aren't BAD, but they do affect the internal consistency of the game in a way that can make playing very awkward and need to be smoothly transitioned.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 04, 2015, 05:13:37 PM
I'd go a step further, and have a coded "social status" value on the character sheet itself, that the game's coders could utilize to make the world respond accordingly.

Different echos could trigger depending on social class, different crim-code results, different prices...  all kinds of amazing things could be done with it!  It'd be cool if someone gets a promotion that elevates their social status, and they see the virtual world behave differently as a result, just like the PC world responds.  We see a lot of things moving in this direction now, with housing for specific social groups, certain echos when you pass by a gate, etc.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Delirium on August 04, 2015, 05:23:31 PM
Yeah... I don't think you guys are understanding that it's not the specific change, it's how it was handled. Ender explained it better than I did.

If it is not appropriate for the board or you cannot find a way to make that the case, you can put in a staff complaint (if serious enough) or a question request if you want to talk with us.  In the same way, not bringing it up will just let it fester.  At least you can get it off of your chest! :)

It's not appropriate for the board, and I can't pretend I'm hopeful, but I'm all for clearing the air. It'll take me some time to compose.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: WithSprinkles on August 04, 2015, 05:26:18 PM
I have a question! In the DEPOSIT helpfile, I'd like a little clarification. It seems pretty straightforward, but I just want to be sure:

Deposit
(Banks)

This command will put money into your bank account. The command can only be used at the House Nenyuk Banks. Money in accounts can be taxed, but in event of a character's death, the money is lost to House Nenyuk. When Templars observe unusual activity, they may levy taxes against House Nenyuk--at which time Nenyuk may choose to pass on those taxes to its depositors.

So.. if a templar sees you makin' it rain and poppin' bottles and such, they can roll up on Nenyuk and walk away with coin? And then Nenyuk will say, "Well, hrm.." And then take the coin from your account to make up for it?

Is that an old policy or new? And it says depositors plural, so will just the offender be fined or will some other system be implemented that bops lots of folk at once? If this happens, do you get a notification? Does the banker mention it? Or is this a GM handled and role played thing?
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Asanadas on August 04, 2015, 05:41:57 PM
A single (Blue robe) Templar can't tax Nenyuk. That's a wink-wink statement saying staff can mess with your bank deposit.

A Blue Robe can't mess with your account short of dragging you to the bank and forcing you to withdraw money, and even then you can possibly get away with gimping him, because he doesn't know how much you really have as a coded value.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on August 04, 2015, 06:26:15 PM

(http://reactiongifs.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Bill-Hader-Popcorn-reaction-Gif-On-The-Daily-Show.gif)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Armaddict on August 04, 2015, 06:31:17 PM
From a developer's standpoint, this solution of "Nobles and Templars can keep their wealth in their compounds" sounds to me as a cop-out from addressing a genuine facet of the economy.

There is no historical or economic root to a bank acting in such a way that it would drive off the nobility and truly wealthy to hoard their currency themselves, aside from a bank being genuinely incompetent. Right now, considering the ballooning penalty, Nenyuk could be considered incompetent for not respecting the social classes defined in-universe.

If I were the prog-bit behind this change, I would go ahead and plan discrepancies based on the player's "social status," in an attempt to respect game documentation and real-world economic evidence. This would also soothe some of the complaints in this thread; instead of this change being arbitrarily harsh, it is now harsh in respect to the game world -- a change that would be cheered.

Your model of banking makes more sense when commoners can actually ask for loans.  Again,  all actual in-game activity points to them being a security-based bank, not a moneylending bank.  You pay them to keep your shit from being stolen, they don't make their profits off of loans.  They get it from security fees and property management.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Asanadas on August 04, 2015, 06:57:19 PM
Your model of banking makes more sense when commoners can actually ask for loans.  Again,  all actual in-game activity points to them being a security-based bank, not a moneylending bank.  You pay them to keep your shit from being stolen, they don't make their profits off of loans.  They get it from security fees and property management.
All actual in-game activity for the last 15 years pointed to Nenyuk being a civil service which stayed afloat by cannibalizing dead men's finances.

You're rejecting the concept of holding a bank to a realistic universe standard, because... they're a PMC that protects your currency? A currency which is a burden to store in high amounts?

I also understand from your reasoning that there are no virtual loans being made to VNPCs? And that, at some point in the past before Nenyuk was made a virtual house, no PC agent ever made a loan? Scrap the loan concept entirely -- simple investments in property (an example of that would be the gentrification of the Merchant's Quarter, which was formerly a section of the 'Rinth) would be massive profit-causing endeavors that can only be accomplished with massive capital in the first place. It's fair to say that the arbitrary tactic causing the wealthy to stuff their money under their mattress would be stifling to these situations that a bank realistically would pursue.

I think if we're going for economic realism, we should start by being realistic. Holding on to this "bank-but-not-quite" excuse you're making as justification for Nenyuk to disregard established social roles acts as a drag to creating a functioning product.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Kismetic on August 04, 2015, 07:01:11 PM
The loan issuing powers in Zalanthas, to my knowledge, are Nenyuk, Kassigarh and Valika.  I know for a positive that PCs with the right sociopolitical sway can pursue a loan from the first two.  Not sure on Valika.

Nenyuk does do loans.  At least, to Templars, but I'm fairly sure that's an option for other people with power.

Vladanyr could come out and correct me, dovarich.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: musashi on August 04, 2015, 07:04:52 PM
From a developer's standpoint, this solution of "Nobles and Templars can keep their wealth in their compounds" sounds to me as a cop-out from addressing a genuine facet of the economy.

There is no historical or economic root to a bank acting in such a way that it would drive off the nobility and truly wealthy to hoard their currency themselves, aside from a bank being genuinely incompetent. Right now, considering the ballooning penalty, Nenyuk could be considered incompetent for not respecting the social classes defined in-universe.

I believe Nyr has already said the "store it in your compound" idea is a short term solution until they add more tweaks to the banking system to make it better take into account the difference in socioeconomic class?
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: musashi on August 04, 2015, 07:11:29 PM
All actual in-game activity for the last 15 years pointed to Nenyuk being a civil service which stayed afloat by cannibalizing dead men's finances.

This is not correct. We often joke on the GDB about Nenyuk making all its money by keeping the spam grebber's ill gotten gains from all those purplish salt crystals they dug up, but the actual bulk of their income comes from property management. The tenets of every single housing development in both cities pay rent to Nenyuk. The only people who get away with not having Nenyuk as their local slumlord are people whose housing is provided to them by their clan/tribe, or people who don't have a house.

Nenyuk being a playable house was before my time but IIRC from what I've heard the primary job of the local Nenyuk agent was ... issuing out apartment keys and collecting rent. And the role closed out soon after apartment code went in. I could be wrong on that though, as I said it was before my time but I believe that was the case.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Old Kank on August 04, 2015, 07:13:53 PM
I'd recommend patience, and offering feedback and criticism is encouraged

I'm pretty ambivalent, but I dislike this change because it's not obvious what it's supposed to do, or how it's intended to affect things (I understand this is just step 1):

People who have a lot of money in the bank have a means to make money, so this change just makes everything slightly more expensive, which is just very mildly inconvenient.  Making stuff more expensive just encourages and prolongs fund-raising behavior, which is moving in the wrong direction.

People who don't have a lot of money don't really need a bank, and the bank fees will make using the bank cost-prohibitive, so they won't use it.  Coins will be blown on flavor minutiae that don't contribute a great deal to the game.

Here's a quick and easy fix:
Put NPC shopkeepers at all Nenyuk banks, give them beads to sell and buy.  100 'sid for stone beads, 500 'sid for obsidian beads, 1,000 'sids for jade beads, and 5,000 'sids for crystal beads.  Set up the shopkeeper so they buy the beads back at 97% of their purchase value.  You could even have region-specific beads if you feel so inclined.  Presto, the currency weight problem is fixed overnight, and suddenly carrying your money becomes a viable alternative to Nenyuk and their steep fees.  Raiders and thieves rejoice!  I'll be happy to write up the NPCs and beads if you want.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Asanadas on August 04, 2015, 07:16:24 PM
I'm fully aware that Nenyuk runs the slumlord operations. It was a joke. Property management would naturally lend itself (heh) to loans.

I also understood the "store it in your compound" being offered as a solution, not as a short-term solution. Because of the iron curtain, staff are hesitant to inform the playerbase if they are going to resolve this in any timeframe.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: musashi on August 04, 2015, 07:19:07 PM
Here's a quick and easy fix:
Put NPC shopkeepers at all Nenyuk banks, give them beads to sell and buy.  100 'sid for stone beads, 500 'sid for obsidian beads, 1,000 'sids for jade beads, and 5,000 'sids for crystal beads.  Set up the shopkeeper so they buy the beads back at 97% of their purchase value.  You could even have region-specific beads if you feel so inclined.  Presto, the currency weight problem is fixed overnight, and suddenly carrying your money becomes a viable alternative to Nenyuk and their steep fees.  Raiders and thieves rejoice!  I'll be happy to write up the NPCs and beads if you want.

For the record, I would vastly prefer this over the diku banking code.
I think the change we got is better than it was before ... but I hate the 100% safe zero chance of it ever being stolen nature of the banking code.
I also think it strains credulity for Nenyuk to be able to keep such accurate records of every nameless illiterate non-id keeping grebber who comes and goes in the city.

I think from both a playibility standpoint as well as a realism stand point it would be a lot better if Nenyuk only operated "accounts" for GMH's, Noble Familes, and the Templarate ... you know ... literate people ... and for everyone else it was a case of: I don't give a shit who you are or where you came from or how you got the beads ... but if you got the beads, I'll cash them out.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on August 04, 2015, 07:24:53 PM
Coins will be blown on flavor minutiae that don't contribute a great deal to the game.

This is a statement I don't quite get. What else are we supposed to blow coins on? Statues? Wagons? I love seeing how fast I can spend coin on 'flavor minutiae,' which I assume covers everything from booze to spice to weapons, armor, and clothes. And whores, PC or otherwise. It's my feeling that if you "Don't have [i.e.: make] a lot of money" you're probably not going to be aspiring to anything super expensive anyhow.

Want that fancy 5K spear from Salarr but only make 200 a month on your clan salary? Hit up your boss for a loan, or work out some sort of deal with Salarr. Or don't buy something too fancy for your social class and instead get something more reasonable.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: musashi on August 04, 2015, 07:25:26 PM
I also understood the "store it in your compound" being offered as a solution, not as a short-term solution. Because of the iron curtain, staff are hesitant to inform the playerbase if they are going to resolve this in any timeframe.

I was looking at this:

This is also only the first step of a larger set of comprehensive changes we'd like to make.  This was easier to accomplish more quickly, so it is first.  (Sorry, won't be speaking on the rest until it is in place!)

And assuming more changes are coming.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Asanadas on August 04, 2015, 07:35:08 PM
I am also fully aware that more changes are coming. I'm concerned whether this is going to be a "complete" cornerstone (with tinkerings of actual % changed through the month), or if this is unfinished in the sense that social status will be taken into account with some update in the future.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Beethoven on August 04, 2015, 07:38:26 PM
He said social status was going to be taken into consideration.

Quote from: Vladanyr
I know that won't belay the order for gathering the pitchforks, but maybe it is worth mentioning that we do plan to deal with social tiers and we also plan to make further changes to this.  You are seeing the guts/foundation of a new system.  These will be incremental changes enacted over time.

Kind of vague but...it's always vague. What I gather from this statement is that they plan to institute lower fees for the upper crust. So that makes me happy.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: musashi on August 04, 2015, 07:45:15 PM
Thanks for the quote grab Beethoven. I knew I saw something that was more explicit in this thread about dealing with social status.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Beethoven on August 04, 2015, 07:51:26 PM
Thanks for the quote grab Beethoven. I knew I saw something that was more explicit in this thread about dealing with social status.

No problem!
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 04, 2015, 07:59:12 PM
Beethoven was right, Vladanyr Putin would've been way cooler....... :'(


(http://mormonbasics.com/wp-content/uploads/Short-2.jpg)

Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Rokal on August 04, 2015, 08:10:12 PM
LOL.  I wouldn't call staff not having a full time PR guy the equivalent to an iron curtain.    Although, it might not hurt to bring on a staff member whose job is communications.





*Wizturbo begins daydreaming*.......




(http://static3.businessinsider.com/image/5134c5b46bb3f7431f00001c-1200/a-16-year-veteran-of-the-kgb-putin-knows-his-way-around-a-gun-after-his-retirement-in-1991-he-rapidly-rose-through-russian-politics-to-become-top-dog-in-the-worlds-largest-nation.jpg)

[Edit] Vladanyr Putin says, "Tell the players all their fucking sid belongs to Nenyuk.  Those indie merchants are screwed, we're calling their number!   They're going to cry bitter tears.  In fact, make sure our tears collectors are operating at 100% efficiency...I don't want a repeat of the spillage incident of 2012.  And I don't care if the nobles don't like it!  If they want to complain, they can pound sand or move to Red Storm where there is no bank!    

.....

(http://www.etonline.com/media/photo/2014/06/24085331/640_Nichelle_Nichols_Star_T.jpg)

"Fellow players!  Wonderful news!  We've listened to your feedback and decided to begin a campaign to revise the Zalanthian economy to better reflect the harsh setting!   Rejoice!   The first step of this ambitious plan is ready to go, and it involves banking.  Code has been created to allow us to add fees for using House Nenyuk's service!  It's going live today!  We've tuned things based on internal debate, but we'll keep an eye on the effects of these changes and make tweaks if necessary.  Please keep in mind this is just one step of many, so don't be surprised if some of the rough edges on this get smoothed out as we continue to iterate.   Vladanyr Putin loves you, and Commodore Nessalin will be signing autographs in Red's Retreat later this week."

.......


(http://goodereader.s3.amazonaws.com/blog/uploads/images/Cheering-crowd.jpg)


"Vladanyr Putin is the best!  Commodore Nessalin lets make babies!"


......

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02846/putin_2846194b.jpg)

This made my day.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 04, 2015, 08:51:09 PM
I have a question! In the DEPOSIT helpfile, I'd like a little clarification. It seems pretty straightforward, but I just want to be sure:

Deposit
(Banks)

This command will put money into your bank account. The command can only be used at the House Nenyuk Banks. Money in accounts can be taxed, but in event of a character's death, the money is lost to House Nenyuk. When Templars observe unusual activity, they may levy taxes against House Nenyuk--at which time Nenyuk may choose to pass on those taxes to its depositors.

So.. if a templar sees you makin' it rain and poppin' bottles and such, they can roll up on Nenyuk and walk away with coin? And then Nenyuk will say, "Well, hrm.." And then take the coin from your account to make up for it?

Is that an old policy or new? And it says depositors plural, so will just the offender be fined or will some other system be implemented that bops lots of folk at once? If this happens, do you get a notification? Does the banker mention it? Or is this a GM handled and role played thing?


This isn't really a change in policy so much as a change in wording.  The old wording said that money in accounts can't be taxed, and then said a bit about templars and seeing a lot of activity with Nenyuk and then taxing Nenyuk.  The old wording probably had not been changed since it was written.  It was updated to match up with actuality:  money in accounts can be taxed (we have the code to do that).

The rest of the wording is the usual "things that affect the business will affect the consumer" text.  If it's confusing, it can be removed or changed.  The old wording was pretty weird, too.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Old Kank on August 04, 2015, 08:56:13 PM
Coins will be blown on flavor minutiae that don't contribute a great deal to the game.

This is a statement I don't quite get.

The question of "what else are we supposed to blow coins on" is the heart of the problem.  Money has no value - not because there's too much, but because there's nothing to buy once you reach a certain point (which most people reach very early on).  So, in my opinion, banking fees is a weak solution that doesn't even approach the problem. 

Flavor is just fine.  Booze, spice, armor, whores, whatever. They aren't bad things by ANY stretch, and I wasn't trying to imply that they were.  My point was just that banking fees creates a gap:  People who want to make money will simply work harder to overcome the Nenyuk fees, and those who don't care about money will burn it rather than carry it (and possibly save it to use on bets/bribes/contracts/whatever later down the line).
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 04, 2015, 08:58:58 PM
In my experiences, money has a ton of uses for sponsored roles.  It's true of noble or non-noble roles too.

A Byn Sergeant could save up to buy the T'zai Byn unit a mul (role-call anyone?).  A Kuraci could save up to build a new wagon, or make a new spice-blend cigarette.  It's just Joe Grebber who doesn't have much use for their extra coin, which is why the world is designed to steal that extra coin from Joe Grebber!!!  :)

Of course, these sponsored roles can't buy these more unique things without staff support...but...the whole point of a sponsored role is you have staff support!  They're probably going to make you jump through some political/social/other hurdles depending on what you want to buy though...
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on August 04, 2015, 09:03:08 PM
Joe Grebber also has loads of use for that extra coin. If he doesn't, he's just not ambitious enough.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 04, 2015, 09:08:03 PM
You could spend a tidy sum of coin on creating your own business.  Those money sinks exist and can provide a numerous amount of things to spend money on.  Yearly taxes, check.  Warehouse fees, check.  Clan compound fees, check.  Pay for your guard(s), check.  Pay for your hawker(s), check.  Pay for your shopkeeper(s), check.  Bribes, check. 

I don't want to say we engineered the MMH progression model to be a money sink for people that wanted to play independents that had a lot of money and needed something to spend it on and possibly fail at, but it was definitely a major factor.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: path on August 04, 2015, 09:25:10 PM
Awesome change. Good work, staff. Thank you, coders.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Fathi on August 04, 2015, 09:31:37 PM
While people pointing out that there are other issues with the economy are correct, I still think this change is a big step in the right direction.

Also, rather than thinking this change will hurt criminals, I am salivating at the potential opportunities for criminal PCs. Especially in the organized crime sector.

(As a side note, I can't wait to see changes to Nenyuk that do take social class into account too. When I played my last rinth leader it drove me crazy how many rinth PCs used the banks and would calmly totter off southside to go deposit/withdraw money. "Sure, I'll get ya sids for this spice in just a sec," says the Jaxa Pah elf, slinking off southside to make a withdrawal from a bank run by humans. I understand players used the banks because of their OOC convenience, but any changes that penalise this and steer people gently away from using bank accounts as a catchall safe money storage solution are A+ to me.)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: path on August 04, 2015, 09:51:05 PM
By the way, coders...there's a code IG for trading items to merchants, it would be really cool if the values on that could be tweaked to make it more playable. :-*
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 04, 2015, 10:16:18 PM
Here's a quick and easy fix:
Put NPC shopkeepers at all Nenyuk banks, give them beads to sell and buy.  100 'sid for stone beads, 500 'sid for obsidian beads, 1,000 'sids for jade beads, and 5,000 'sids for crystal beads.  Set up the shopkeeper so they buy the beads back at 97% of their purchase value.  You could even have region-specific beads if you feel so inclined.  Presto, the currency weight problem is fixed overnight, and suddenly carrying your money becomes a viable alternative to Nenyuk and their steep fees.  Raiders and thieves rejoice!  I'll be happy to write up the NPCs and beads if you want.
I have to say, yes. Yes, a lot of yes. Though I still say gems, but ... yeh, this would be great.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: valeria on August 05, 2015, 12:58:07 AM
As with most changes, I feel that if a lot of the information that came out in the thread -- first of several planned changes, will take social status into account later, these are the breakdowns, we are pretending this has always been there so talk to your clan staff if you have a specific problem -- was put into the initial post, there would have been a lot less confusion and negative reaction.  At least on my part.  This isn't a complaint, just an observation.  Obligatory friendly smiley  :D
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Majikal on August 05, 2015, 01:00:11 AM
Hmmm.. singular coins or gems that are worth stacks of obsidian coins....

Pickpocket griefing begin!
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 05, 2015, 01:21:06 AM
More than anything else, I'd just like to see the gem or bead system when transporting coin from locale to locale. I have never ever liked the idea of the bank across the Known knowing what your account holds. Yes, Tuluk is closed atm. But there's still Luir's, and Morin's probably ought to have a stall for players based out of there.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Suhuy on August 05, 2015, 01:39:46 AM
In a world where people can communicate mind to mind from just about anywhere, I don't think it's too big of a leap that different Nenyuk offices will know your balance and be able to allow for a withdraw or deposit.

How they know you're you is of course the bigger question, but I think most of us are happy to overlook some lack of reality for the sake of OOC convenience. But who knows, maybe people have a certain psionic signature or imprint which makes them identifiable somehow. Maybe it's better not specified in the end.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: QuillDipper on August 05, 2015, 01:59:59 AM
Time to make PC non-Nenyuk bankers to get around them charges.

Leave your five large with me. It'll be fine.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: KankWhisperer on August 05, 2015, 02:18:38 AM
By the way, coders...there's a code IG for trading items to merchants, it would be really cool if the values on that could be tweaked to make it more playable. :-*
If it would take haggle skill into account that'd be super.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 05, 2015, 08:24:09 AM
As with most changes, I feel that if a lot of the information that came out in the thread -- first of several planned changes, will take social status into account later, these are the breakdowns, we are pretending this has always been there so talk to your clan staff if you have a specific problem -- was put into the initial post, there would have been a lot less confusion and negative reaction.  At least on my part.  This isn't a complaint, just an observation.  Obligatory friendly smiley  :D

Answer:  the code goes as most code releases go--meaning after it is tested, reviewed, and merged in, it will go live at the next maintenance session reboot.  That was Monday.  I noticed it was live Monday morning after the reboot and put up a short post about it to reiterate what was in the weekly update on it, because someone wished up about it in-game.  I wanted to wait for Nessalin to be around to determine what information we could provide about this change--how much detail about the code is he comfortable revealing?  Often, we don't reveal the guts of what goes on with code changes, or "what's next" because pinning a timeline on free code development is a bit nebulous.  However, after we both saw that the "20%" figure was being bandied about like it affected everyone (and not those with accounts 15000-29999, which is reasonably well-off if nothing else), he put that info up, and I also indicated that yes, we have other stuff planned in relation to these changes.

Yes, generally, we do try to give more notice (or more explanation) for things that affect players.  It is difficult to do that after the fact.  We'll make sure to have more info available in the future!  :)
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Lizzie on August 05, 2015, 09:32:59 AM
Hmmm.. singular coins or gems that are worth stacks of obsidian coins....

Pickpocket griefing begin!

Never tried pickpocketing (and it's probably some super sekrit IC info) but...

If I have 1 pile of 2000 coins

or

4 wampum beads each worth 500 sids

I'd rather have the thief steal 1 bead
rather than 1 pile.

Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Saellyn on August 05, 2015, 10:48:45 AM
AFAIK steal takes a portion of the money, not the whole pile, but at higher levels it takes a bigger portion. Maybe it DOES steal the whole damn pile. I dunno, I've never been a pickpocket.


And the PP griefers people talk about WILL steal all four of your wampum beads. The coolio ones will take one and cut their losses. Honestly, steal is wicked OP at max level. You can literally open peoples cloaks and shit without them noticing.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Sunburned on August 05, 2015, 12:30:23 PM
I feel like there should be some kind of info board in the bank for the sake of new players, so that they're not side-blinded when their coin evaporates upon withdrawal.  Most people tend to assume that banking in games functions with 100% efficiency unless told otherwise, and as a new implementation, it could be easily overlooked when folks are becoming acquainted with the game.

Realistically, the cost-benefit of banking with Nenyuk would be well-known to every commoner.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Marauder Moe on August 05, 2015, 12:33:12 PM
Would it?

I don't think it's terribly inappropriate for the game to screw someone out of some money with little warning.  There are far nastier surprises in the world, after all.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: valeria on August 05, 2015, 12:42:15 PM
I feel like there should be some kind of info board in the bank for the sake of new players, so that they're not side-blinded when their coin evaporates upon withdrawal.  Most people tend to assume that banking in games functions with 100% efficiency unless told otherwise, and as a new implementation, it could be easily overlooked when folks are becoming acquainted with the game.

Realistically, the cost-benefit of banking with Nenyuk would be well-known to every commoner.

It's right there in "help bank".
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: ShaLeah on August 05, 2015, 02:22:11 PM
I don't know what would make it better for me. I for one won't be using the bank unless I need to. Most my commoners never clear a large anyway.

It doesn't 'sit right' that this change would affect big money people (GMHs and Noble Houses), after all, it's their money that's made Nenyuk in the first place (or is it Nenyuk's money that's made THEM). It never sat well with me that those in charge of money would be commoners. I always thought each city state should have a noble house do that, or better yet, the rulers, Bank of Tuluk and such.

I understand that there'd be fees incurred but I'd have felt much better if it was say, 5% of the balance an IC month.

I also think Nenyuk's made (and will continue to make) billions on keeping the sid off people who get dead.

Affiliated (clanned) people shouldn't be charged. Their organizations spend a lot of money there. *shrug*

Independent people should even get charged more. They make too much twinky sid.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Erythil on August 05, 2015, 02:29:09 PM
Another thought -- one of the things that people have complained about regarding money is that it's easy to have more of it than you can spend.  So, from staff's point of view, limiting the money supply in this way is a logical first step towards solving that problem.

If I can point to a parallel with MMOs -- whenever a class gets nerfed, everyone who plays it howls bloody murder, no matter how minor the change.  If an underpowered class gets buffed, generally people are all right with it.  But feeling like you had your toys taken away from you is never fun.  The negative response in many quarters to this move is essentially motivated by the same instinct.  People feel like they were blindsided by a punitive measure.

I think that if this new restriction on our ability to stockpile money were coupled with new high-end rewards (metal, mounts, enchanted lederhosen) for having a lot of money, the new state of affairs would be viewed less as an annoying inconvenience and more as an interesting challenge.  It would also combat the 'staff hates independents for no reason' refrain that some people are drawn to.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: ShaLeah on August 05, 2015, 02:32:58 PM
It would also combat the 'staff hates independents for no reason' refrain that some people are drawn to.

If staff hated independents you wouldn't be selling razor tipped shit and braies for 1k+. You wouldn't be able to run to Luirs and sell shit that sells in Nak for peanuts and sell it for a lump of pure silver (exaggeration). I don't think staff hates independents ENOUGH.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: BadSkeelz on August 05, 2015, 02:35:56 PM
Staff doesn't hate independents, the game world hates independents. Why? Because they're independents.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Erythil on August 05, 2015, 02:37:09 PM
It would also combat the 'staff hates independents for no reason' refrain that some people are drawn to.

If staff hated independents you wouldn't be selling razor tipped shit and braies for 1k+. You wouldn't be able to run to Luirs and sell shit that sells in Nak for peanuts and sell it for a lump of pure silver (exaggeration). I don't think staff hates independents ENOUGH.

I see the nature of playing an independent in armageddon as essentially high risk, high reward.  It's much harder to establish yourself without being in a clan.  With Tuluk gone, it's especially difficult to get a toehold as guild merchant.  It's very easy for an established clan to tear you and your allies apart if you do get established.  It's also easy for a templar to fleece you senseless.  The best way to handle independents, in my opinion, is at the player level, and I've seen some of this 'handling' carried out pretty savagely IC.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Adhira on August 05, 2015, 03:13:01 PM
Staff doesn't hate independents, the game world hates independents. Why? Because they're independents.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Desertman on August 05, 2015, 03:16:46 PM
Yeah.

I wonder how many independents get killed doing independent things every RL week and how many House Family/employees get killed every RL week doing House things?

There is a reason indy folks who actually manage to survive (extremely rare) for any REAL length of time can make some decent money. They live the epitome of high risk vs high reward.

How many indies are ever truly successful? How many make names for themselves that will last through the years?

Now how many House members build monuments and end up in the history docs comparatively?

Wealth is FAR from the measure of success in this game. If you are depending on wealth to give you power, then you will never really have any power anyways. It's relationships and your ability to foster them with the right people that give you power. Money has very little to do with it.

If you are in a House and you believe some random indy making money is somehow keeping you down or hurting your ability to be successful....the sad news is, your problems have nothing to do with that indy.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Majikal on August 05, 2015, 03:30:47 PM
Most of my pc's never touch the bank before they see the Mantis head, they're living out of their tiny apartment and pocketful of sid. If you're stacking multiple thousands of sid in the bank and are upset about the taxes chances are you're not the average commoner and are only now seeing the struggle any commoner might see in climbing out of thier caste. If you don't even want to think about putting your tiny sids in the bank because of the 20 coin tax on your 100 coins, congratulations you're just as broke as 99 percent of the people in Zalanthas.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: flurry on August 05, 2015, 03:57:56 PM
I really like this change, but one thing (actually from Random Armageddon Thoughts, but on this topic) caught my attention.

what if you withdraw 50 coins

Hell, what if you withdraw 1 coin.  I'll ask Nessalin if he can change it to tell the prospective bankee "don't waste my time with your piddly shit" or as Delirium suggests "That's cute."

As an alternative, I would suggest that the fee should come out of the account balance, rather than out of the amount received from the teller.

Example: Amos has 2000 coins in the bank. He withdraws 75 coins. The teller hands over 75 coins, and the new account balance is 1875 (i.e. 125 less than it was before the transaction, to account for the 75 coins as well as the 50 fee). If the starting balance isn't enough for the amount requested plus the fee, the transaction doesn't happen.

(As a real life parallel, if you withdraw $50 from an ATM with a $2 fee, you still physically receive $50, not $48. The fee just comes out of the account balance.)

Of course the player can math it themselves to get the desired result, but I think this way is much more intuitive, and will prevent some newbie frustration.

And if I misunderstand and this is already how things work, then disregard this.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Alesan on August 05, 2015, 04:00:42 PM
I really like this change, but one thing (actually from Random Armageddon Thoughts, but on this topic) caught my attention.

what if you withdraw 50 coins

Hell, what if you withdraw 1 coin.  I'll ask Nessalin if he can change it to tell the prospective bankee "don't waste my time with your piddly shit" or as Delirium suggests "That's cute."

As an alternative, I would suggest that the fee should come out of the account balance, rather than out of the amount received from the teller.

Example: Amos has 2000 coins in the bank. He withdraws 75 coins. The teller hands over 75 coins, and the new account balance is 1875 (i.e. 125 less than it was before the transaction, to account for the 75 coins as well as the 50 fee). If the starting balance isn't enough for the amount requested plus the fee, the transaction doesn't happen.

(As a real life parallel, if you withdraw $50 from an ATM with a $2 fee, you still physically receive $50, not $48. The fee just comes out of the account balance.)

Of course the player can math it themselves to get the desired result, but I think this way is much more intuitive, and will prevent some newbie frustration.

And if I misunderstand and this is already how things work, then disregard this.

+1

Much more intuitive, I like it.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Molten Heart on August 05, 2015, 04:24:58 PM
Idea: Have the balance command show total balance and bakance available to show how much "real" value there is in the account. Either that or take the percentage fee out at deposit. The bank is getting their cut either way, it's only a matter of time.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 05, 2015, 04:28:39 PM
Idea: Have the balance command show total balance and bakance available to show how much "real" value there is in the account. Either that or take the percentage fee out at deposit. The bank is getting their cut either way, it's only a matter of time.

You mean something like this?

Code: [Select]
= > balance
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "You have 10000 coins in your account."
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "For an account that large your withdrawal fee will be 0.15 of the amount taken out."

Because that is what it does now when you check your balance.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: wizturbo on August 05, 2015, 04:41:40 PM
Idea: Have the balance command show total balance and bakance available to show how much "real" value there is in the account. Either that or take the percentage fee out at deposit. The bank is getting their cut either way, it's only a matter of time.

You mean something like this?

Code: [Select]
= > balance
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "You have 10000 coins in your account."
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "For an account that large your withdrawal fee will be 0.15 of the amount taken out."

Because that is what it does now when you check your balance.

I think he means something like this, which is what I'd like to see as well:

Code: [Select]
= > balance
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "You have 10000 coins in your account.  Given the fees assessed, you can withdraw up to 8500 at this time."
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "For an account that large your withdrawal fee will be 0.15 of the amount taken out."
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: aeglaeca on August 05, 2015, 04:57:44 PM
This is a pretty tiny suggestion, but I also think decimals are a bit weird to see in the world of Zalanthas. I'm not even sure if percentages would really exist/be used? It would be cool if it was more like:

Code: [Select]
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "For an account that large, we will be assessing a fee of 15 coins for every 100 taken out."
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Alesan on August 05, 2015, 05:00:28 PM
This is a pretty tiny suggestion, but I also think decimals are a bit weird to see in the world of Zalanthas. I'm not even sure if percentages would really exist/be used? It would be cool if it was more like:

Code: [Select]
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "For an account that large, we will be assessing a fee of 15 coins for every 100 taken out."

I like this. If that fee could be taken out of the balance and not the withdrawal as suggested a few posts earlier, I would like the overall bank change a lot more. As it is, I don't like it a whole lot.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Molten Heart on August 05, 2015, 05:06:42 PM
Code: [Select]
= > balance
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "You have 10000 coins in your account.  Given the fees assessed, you can withdraw up to 8500 at this time."
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "For an account that large your withdrawal fee will be 0.15 of the amount taken out."

Exactly what I meant. I'm imagining a discussion a merchant might have when they ask their potential customer what their price range is and they aren't sure because they don't know how much -real- money they have in the bank.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Eyeball on August 09, 2015, 07:42:06 AM
Have to wonder why people think that every PC should either be a clan leader or a clan minion with his/her lips firmly planted on a clan leader's butt, and if they don't, they should be punished, punished, punished (looking at you, BadSkeelz). Maybe it's born of the frustration some clan leaders have had trying to recruit people and not finding it to be totally an employer's market the way they'd like. In which case I'd suggest restructuring things to increase the incentives to join rather than decreasing the incentive to play independently.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Miko on August 09, 2015, 09:57:41 AM
Have to wonder why people think that every PC should either be a clan leader or a clan minion with his/her lips firmly planted on a clan leader's butt, and if they don't, they should be punished, punished, punished (looking at you, BadSkeelz). Maybe it's born of the frustration some clan leaders have had trying to recruit people and not finding it to be totally an employer's market the way they'd like. In which case I'd suggest restructuring things to increase the incentives to join rather than decreasing the incentive to play independently.

This post made me really happy for the change. I still support it. Clan lockers are looking mighty sweet right now.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: flurry on August 09, 2015, 11:09:19 AM
Code: [Select]
= > balance
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "You have 10000 coins in your account.  Given the fees assessed, you can withdraw up to 8500 at this time."
The Nenyuki banker says to you, "For an account that large your withdrawal fee will be 0.15 of the amount taken out."

I think it's a good idea in principle, but awkward if the command to withdraw 8500 remains as 'withdraw 10000'.

Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: flurry on August 09, 2015, 11:17:02 AM
Food for thought:

Consider a transaction at the highest rate (25%).

'withdraw 1000'

At the completion of the transaction, the customer has 750 coins, and Nenyuk is 250 coins richer. Was this really a 25% tax or a 33% tax? Are you paying a fee to withdraw the fee, only to hand it right back across the counter?

Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 09, 2015, 12:10:04 PM
Locking this thread because it has gone off topic.
Title: Re: Bank Changes Discussion Thread
Post by: Nyr on August 09, 2015, 12:10:41 PM
Nah, I'm kidding, check out this other thread (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49823.0.html) on new changes.