Bank Changes Discussion Thread

[Is Friday]

musashi: Pretty sure we're saying the same thing. No one wants to play an apped in LT because that's more of a reward that's earned for the player than a role that's automatically fun.

[Is Friday]

And, forgive me if I am wrong, but I am getting the impression from reading the posts in this thread that people are going off their initial "PANIC!!" and gut reactions and forgetting that the fee is based off of how much you withdraw.

Withdraw                                                              (Banks)

   This allows you to take money out of your character's bank account, that
you had previously deposited. You may only use this command at the House
Banks of Nenyuk. The money withdrawn is automatically transferred into your
inventory.

   You can also use this command to withdraw money from your clan's bank
account, but you must be given permission to do so.

Syntax:
   withdraw <amount> [clan]

Example:
   > withdraw 500

> withdraw 50 T'zai Byn

Notes:
   Withdrawals will incur fees from House Nenyuk.  These fees depend on
the size of the account in question.

[Pale Horse]

And, forgive me if I am wrong, but I am getting the impression from reading the posts in this thread that people are going off their initial "PANIC!!" and gut reactions and forgetting that the fee is based off of how much you withdraw.

Withdraw                                                              (Banks)

   This allows you to take money out of your character's bank account, that
you had previously deposited. You may only use this command at the House
Banks of Nenyuk. The money withdrawn is automatically transferred into your
inventory.

   You can also use this command to withdraw money from your clan's bank
account, but you must be given permission to do so.

Syntax:
   withdraw <amount> [clan]

Example:
   > withdraw 500

> withdraw 50 T'zai Byn

Notes:
   Withdrawals will incur fees from House Nenyuk.  These fees depend on
the size of the account in question.

If such is true, then some Staff in this thread need to change their prior posts.

Or, this helpfile needs to be changed as it's a mistake.

[Nergal]

The percentage depends on the size of the account, but the fee itself is a percentage of the withdrawal amount.

[Saellyn]

From what staff said, it's based on what you withdraw, not how much you have in.

[musashi]

musashi: Pretty sure we're saying the same thing. No one wants to play an apped in LT because that's more of a reward that's earned for the player than a role that's automatically fun.

Right. Yes we are saying the same thing then. Sorry I misunderstood.
I think once the Lt role is treated as a reward for a self made leader instead of a sponsored role, the complaints about it will die down and the players will be happy it's there.

[Saellyn]

So if I have 50k and I withdraw 1k, I lose 200 coins from that.


You're not losing 6k total unless you withdraw all 50k, Wizturbo.

[AdamBlue]

The problem with this is that the people who were voicing for these fees is a small but vocal minority.
The majority probably don't want to have to deal with stupid fees and they thought the vocal minority, like many very vocal minority groups would, not really do anything and just bugger off. The problem with this is that everyone hates it because the majority who is quiet really, really hates it for multiple reasons.
1. Suddenness
2. The lack of sense and reason behind it
3. The distinct change of how the game functions in a manner.
4. more reasons ect

Anyway, I hope this is taken out and reworked as the current state is pretty terrible. Knowing how it works, though, because they spent time making it they're just gonna leave it in even if most people don't like it.

[Lizzie]

If PC Leader A has 30k and PC Leader B has 50k, the amount that they get fee'd for withdrawing 5000 coins is, if I'm right in what staff said, going to be 1,000 coins period. Which isn't that much. You lose 6,000 to get 5,000 out. How is that such a big deal? I'm not seeing it.

You're not grasping the concept...

PC Leader A doesn't have 30k.  They have 24k available to them...Nenyuk is going to seize 6k if they're at the 20% rate (which they are).  In fact, if they're actually intelligent bankers, they'll take your 6k away immediately and lend it to someone else.  No point in holding 30k in the bank for you, you won't be getting more than 24k back.

Sure, they might on paper only show that they're taking away your 6k slowly, as you withdraw from the account...but in reality, the moment you deposited that coin, the money was gone.

If a PC leader needs to accumulate large amounts of coin, to pay for a festival, an RPT, a massive Byn excursion, a wagon, an auction, or any number of other content generating activity....they now needs to accumulate 20% more, or store it in their bedroom and hope their clan members don't steal it.

That's not true, I don't think. It depends on how much you withdraw each time you withdraw, and what your balance is when you're done withdrawing it.

IF (for example) the 20% fee is for any balance over 10,000 sids

and if

you have a 30,000-sid account

then if

you withdraw 18,000 sids

then your account balance, after the fee of 3,600 sids, is included in the withdraw, will now be under 10,000 sids.

Now your fee is only 15%.

Then - you withdraw until your balance is now under the next percentage threshold, and you will now only have to pay 10% on the next withdrawal. And so on.

[wizturbo]

*deep, patient breath*

If you have 50k in the Nenyuk bank, you do not have 50k.  You have 40k available to withdraw (to Lizzie's point, you have probably something like 41k or whatever, as the rate will change as the account balance gets smaller).  Period.  There's no point in telling you that you have 50k, because you don't.   The fact that you're paying only on what you withdraw is a complete illusion, you lost ~20% of the value of your deposit the second you handed it over.

That means, you lose 20% of whatever you put into House Nenyuk, whether its for 5 minutes, or 50 years.  That makes using the bank an EXTREMELY expensive proposition for anyone whose trying to accumulate massive amounts of coins for an RPT, event, etc.  Who does that?  Leaders...and that's why you keep hearing from leaders that this could be a problem for them.

[Is Friday]

The fee is based on your account balance, not how much you withdraw. I've just tested it.

[Lizzie]

So if I have 50k and I withdraw 1k, I lose 200 coins from that.


You're not losing 6k total unless you withdraw all 50k, Wizturbo.

And even that's only if you withdraw the full amount in a single withdrawal.

For the record, I was against the idea of banking fees when it first came up. I continued to be against it. I'm still against it. It's not a game-breaker for me, but I feel there are better ways to "fix" the economy than banker fees.

[wizturbo]

Then - you withdraw until your balance is now under the next percentage threshold, and you will now only have to pay 10% on the next withdrawal. And so on.

Yes...so then instead of costing you 20%, it ends up being like 19% as the average rate you pay on a 50k deposit.  I didn't want to complicate things by explaining all that, as people still aren't grasping the fact that your coin is immediately lost the moment you deposit.

[aeglaeca]

Know another solution?

Make the CLAN account your bank account. How?

Simple.

Log in reports exactly how much PERSONAL money you deposit in, and how much is paid into the account for the House. Then, at the summary, you write up what was deposited x week, and how much total you have deposited over time.

That way Staff can see you're not just using the infinite bank account for withdrawals, and they can also check back on what you're taking out/putting in to make sure you aren't skeezing them.

If you're going to do this, I really don't see why nobility and whoever else might be stipend-driving-RP-dependent can't just get their withdrawal fees dropped to 0. There's really no difference between this suggestion and that, not to mention I don't think anyone's asked for no fee, just a flat rate/reduced fee for those types of leadership PCs.

Alternative solutions such as this



are certainly available, just rather inconvenient with the end result basically requiring more OOC time between lugging coin from estates or saving to offset the Nenyuk fees.

PC Leader A doesn't have 30k.  They have 24k available to them...Nenyuk is going to seize 6k if they're at the 20% rate (which they are).  In fact, if they're actually intelligent bankers, they'll take your 6k away immediately and lend it to someone else.  No point in holding 30k in the bank for you, you won't be getting more than 24k back.

Sure, they might on paper only show that they're taking away your 6k slowly, as you withdraw from the account...but in reality, the moment you deposited that coin, the money was gone.

If a PC leader needs to accumulate large amounts of coin, to pay for a festival, an RPT, a massive Byn excursion, a wagon, an auction, or any number of other content generating activity....they now needs to accumulate 20% more, or store it in their bedroom and hope their clan members don't steal it.

They probably have a little more than 24k if they're withdrawing in increments. Presumably once your account drops under certain floors your fees will also be reduced. Honestly, it would be really nice to see exactly what the fee rates are so you can plan accordingly.


I do think very large spends (festivals, wagons, etc., things where the amount of coin in question are above 20k) are going to be handled through clan accounts because that sort of thing needs immortal supervision to begin with. My concerns are shifted toward smaller but more constant spends like Byn contracts or hiring temporary workers or spur of the moment activities.

[Is Friday]

nevermind

[musashi]

So if I have 50k and I withdraw 1k, I lose 200 coins from that.


You're not losing 6k total unless you withdraw all 50k, Wizturbo.

I think Wizturbo's point was that making 1 5k withdraw and being charged 1k in fees ... is the same as making 5 1k withdraws and being charged 200 coins 5 times.

But ... that's not always going to be true. Once your account drops below a threshold your interest rate will drop too so ... you may end up with marginally more than you thought you'd have.

[Erythil]

I like the idea of banking being a little more restrictive in theory, but I think the withdrawal fee rates need to be adjusted downwards.  They are excessive if what I have read in this thread is accurate.

I also think it would feel less punitive if the fees were levied on deposit rather than on withdrawal.  Alternatively, a system of annual fees for having accounts beyond a certain size would be okay by me too.

As it stands, this amounts primarily to a massive buff towards burglars and raiders.

[KankWhisperer]

So withdraw in 1000 coins increments so the tax rate goes down as you go ?

[Pale Horse]

The percentage depends on the size of the account, but the fee itself is a percentage of the withdrawal amount.

Ah, I think I understand now.

Totally made up examples:
1,000 - 5,000 in the bank puts you in the 1% withdrawal transaction fee.  So long as you have between 1,000 and 5,000 you will be deducted 1% of the amount you have withdrawn.

10,000 to 100,000 puts you in the 20% withdrawal transaction fee.  Any withdrawal while you have between 10,000 and 100,000 will have a 20% deduction fee of the amount withdrawn taken from your account.

Edit: If this was readily obvious to everyone else in this thread but me, I apologize.  I don't math well under the best of circumstances and the allergy meds I'm on right now have really done a number on my ability to think clearly.

[Lizzie]

And really if you have 50,000 sids in the bank and you're not one of the "exempt" or "partially exempt" characters, you are probably one of those people for whom this system was created in the first place. Really though, all we need to do is make all of Malken's characters pay 50% of every deposit he makes into the bank, and have a *clanned* NPC rob his locker of 50% of all sids he stores in his clan compound, forever. I think that'll solve all the banking issues.

[AdamBlue]

So if I have 50k and I withdraw 1k, I lose 200 coins from that.


You're not losing 6k total unless you withdraw all 50k, Wizturbo.

I think Wizturbo's point was that making 1 5k withdraw and being charged 1k in fees ... is the same as making 5 1k withdraws and being charged 200 coins 5 times.

But ... that's not always going to be true. Once your account drops below a threshold your interest rate will drop too so ... you may end up with marginally more than you thought you'd have.

It's 10%. If you put in 10 sid into the bank, you will only get 9 sid back, therefore transforming your available money to 9 sid. 100 sid becomes 90 sid. 1000 sid becomes 900 sid. 100000 sid becomes 90000 sid. And that's only with the flat 10% rate. Even the 10% rate is way too fucking much. 20% is uncomprehendable. If your life savings is 10 large, guess what fucker, you only have 9 large now, we're just gonna take a large. Congrats, you're a fucking idiot for depositing your money. Now the money is gone forever, great job. No matter how much you take 'tiny' withdrawls, it's gonna cost the same amount of money to you.

[wizturbo]

I think Wizturbo's point was that making 1 5k withdraw and being charged 1k in fees ... is the same as making 5 1k withdraws and being charged 200 coins 5 times.

But ... that's not always going to be true. Once your account drops below a threshold your interest rate will drop too so ... you may end up with marginally more than you thought you'd have.

Yes, that's definitely the case.  But this 20% rate kicks in fairly soon.  My balance isn't 50,000, or anywhere near that.

Pretend the index is as follows:

0-5000 coins = 10%
5001-10000 coins = 15%
10000+ = 20%

You deposit 50,000 for your festival extravaganza, over the course of many IC years as you save up.  You go to withdraw that, in 1k increments:

The first 40k is taxed at 20% rate (8000 coin fee).  The next 5k is taxed at 15% (750 coin fee), and the remaining 5k is taxed at 10% (500 coin fee).  

Net withdrawal =  40,750.  Net tax = 9,250.    Effective rate = 18.5%


End result?  You need to raise more like 60k, in order to actually withdraw 50k. 

[Saellyn]

... So what?

If I have 10k, first of all, why do I give  a fuck if I lose 1k on withdrawals? I still have a whole load of cash. If I have fucking 50k, I don't care if I lose 10k or whatever of that. I still have TONS of cash. I don't need to worry about that shit.

[Vox]

I really like this idea!

Hopefully it encourages people to sock away their coin in their trunks or just carry more of it on their person.

Burglars and raiders rejoice!

My only question is, now that Nenyuk has a strong revenue-generating 'tax' in place, does that coin fill the coffers of the City in which the bank is located or will we be seeing a sudden increase in fancy, Nenyuk-financed construction projects?

[Saellyn]

Most people who need festival money don't need -fifty thousand- for it.

Fifty thousand coins is just being rich and having access to tons of luxury items. Why do you care if you're losing some of it on a withdrawal? Just make more money. You're clearly good at it.

Those of us who think 3k is a lot to have will continue to just make money and deal with the bank accounts the way we always have.