Bank Changes Discussion Thread

[LauraMars]

Let's say this "I have to spend 50k of my own money as a noble for this festival, and can't use any money from the House to help out with that, and no one else is helping out with the festival, no, it all comes out of my own account" thing is true.

This happened to my noble.  It wasn't a festival though.

[Nyr]

I know that won't belay the order for gathering the pitchforks, but maybe it is worth mentioning that we do plan to deal with social tiers and we also plan to make further changes to this.  You are seeing the guts/foundation of a new system.  These will be incremental changes enacted over time.

[Erythil]

I guess my feeling on this -- and why I think some people are responding negatively -- iis that it seems game-y and engineered to try and produce a desired result, rather than being an honest reflection of any kind of banking practice, fair or otherwise, that has been utilized in human history.  Typically, the bigger the account, the lower the fee, as more money in the vault allows the bank more funds with which to issue loans and play in various markets.  And Nenyuk would assumedly be looking to maximize their capital rather than enforce the social hierarchy by punishing rich independents.

I'm not economic historian but ... in a dictatorship ... are banks allowed to operate in the same manner they do in modern day Amercia? I'm sure Nenyuk does want to maximize their capital, but I would think they are also beholden to the city of Allanak to enforce the social hierarchy as well, and so they end up trying to maximize their capital within the confines set by the state. Because Allanak is not a free market society.

I'm not thinking about modern American banks exclusively, I'm rolling Renaissance banks and even early guild banks into my analysis.  I will admit that I'm not familiar with banking practice in Babylon or any other sufficiently awful premodern society.  But I was under the impression that what they had there functioned moreso as vaults and treasuries rather than a proper bank.

[Lizzie]

Fifty thousand coins is just being rich and having access to tons of luxury items. Why do you care if you're losing some of it on a withdrawal? Just make more money. You're clearly good at it.

This is what you're not grasping...  The people who put on those festivals do spend 50k coins, and they don't "make" the money, they accumulate it in stipends over the course of RL months.  By making it take 20% more RL months to accumulate said money, you're making it harder for them to put on more festivals.

Let's say this "I have to spend 50k of my own money as a noble for this festival, and can't use any money from the House to help out with that, and no one else is helping out with the festival, no, it all comes out of my own account" thing is true.

The poorest noble tier (doing nothing else) could raise this much money in 3 IC years by doing nothing except logging in and getting their stipends.  The richest noble tier (doing nothing else) could raise this much in about 1.5 IC years.  If this is the biggest concern, I think they'll be okay waiting a week or two more if they wish to use Nenyuk to store their coin.

The problem with this, Nyr, is exactly what you said - he'd have to do *nothing* other than show up and collect his stipend. He wouldn't also have funds to pay bribes, throw a 3-keg party for his noble girlfriend's birthday, buy his concubine a new pair of shoes, or even buy himself a new hat. He'd have to save up -instead- of doing anything else. That reduces plot-moving opportunity. I also don't believe that nobles have to use 100% of their own money, exclusively, to run these things. I know from experience that there's more than that involved, and much of it comes from other PCs. But it is typically still stored in an individual PC's bank account, and the PC who is paying the bills for it still has to pay the fee, unless the House allows that PC to use the House account for that purpose.

Here's an idea - perhaps this will solve the problem:

Allow "escrow" accounts. Each Noble House can have 1 escrow account, where only one noble at a time can access it for a specific window of time, and the funds have to be earmarked for a specific thing. The funds can come -from- anywhere - other PCs can contribute to it, the House can contribute to it, other clans can even contribute to it. Think of it as a kickstarter account, Zalanthas style.

And for a NOMINAL fee - say, 1%, the noble in question or up to one of that specific noble's *assigned* lackeys, can withdraw from it, at any point. Maybe the lackey can only withdraw up to 2000 sids. Or maybe the noble can include a maximun when he assigns that PC the withdrawal privilege.

In this way, the noble gets the privilege of secured banking for his festival - anyone can buff up the account, and because it's earmarked for this specific festival, and is benefitting Nenyuk anyway (since all those festival patrons will need to withdraw funds to pay for all the festivities when they attend), that noble and his trusted #1 senior aide can withdraw as needed at only 1% fee.

Once the festival is over, the noble loses access to the account, and any funds left over go into the House account (which is what is used to give him his monthly stipend anyway so it stands to reason the House would retain the coins).


Or something like that.

[Nyr]

Let's say this "I have to spend 50k of my own money as a noble for this festival, and can't use any money from the House to help out with that, and no one else is helping out with the festival, no, it all comes out of my own account" thing is true.

This happened to my noble.  It wasn't a festival though.

50,000 coins of your own noble's money?  Before or after the changes that increased noble pay?  Nothing reimbursed or assisted at all from the noble house?

I was pointing out an extreme example.  It is possible people have been in these scenarios before or may put themselves in these scenarios again.  My point was that even alone and unassisted by staff or other players, nobles make enough now to handle this within a relatively short period of time.

[wizturbo]

I know that won't belay the order for gathering the pitchforks, but maybe it is worth mentioning that we do plan to deal with social tiers and we also plan to make further changes to this.  You are seeing the guts/foundation of a new system.  These will be incremental changes enacted over time.

I personally don't want my criticism to be viewed as pitchforks.  I LOVE this change.  It's great.  +10 net points to Armageddon (+15 effect for general population, -5 for leaders).  I think we could implement these same systems and get the full +15 though, without the -5.  Maybe some of these other changes you're eluding to will do just that.

[wizturbo]

I was pointing out an extreme example.  It is possible people have been in these scenarios before or may put themselves in these scenarios again.  My point was that even alone and unassisted by staff or other players, nobles make enough now to handle this within a relatively short period of time.

4.5 RL months (3 IC years) of saving every single sid is hardly a short period of time, even to me, and my tendency to play fairly long lived characters.  (Of course, if they stash that coin in Nenyuk its 5.5 RL months, but I digress..)

But then again, maybe a junior noble from a middle tier house shouldn't be able to afford a festival on their own, even if they save and spend absolutely nothing for years.  Maybe they should have to beg for help from the richer houses, or scheme to get more coin from somewhere else in a MBC fashion?  I certainly wouldn't disagree with that...  they're rich, but they're not Nenyuki rich .

[KankWhisperer]

Me: Yo clan staff, net positive in the accounts.
Staff: Word.

[Beethoven]

I have a feeling I will like the system post-tweaks. Yes, the heavy sacks o' pennies are unwieldy and all that, but I am all for encouraging people to do more stuff with their ridiculous amounts of hoarded money than just automatically place all of it in the MAGICAL IMPENETRABLE IRON FORTRESS OF NENYUK, NEVER TO BE SEEN AGAIN. This will encourage people to make smart (or possibly dumb) decisions. At the very least, it will encourage them to make decisions. My main fear was that social tiers weren't being addressed. Yes, nobles can keep their coin in their estates and all that, but I just didn't like how unthematic and modern the whole "tax the upper crust" business felt. Now that I know that staff is going to be making changes that take social hierarchy into account, I feel a lot more at ease about the whole thing.

[Armaddict]

I don't believe Nenyuk's primary form of profit is in moneylending.  They don't have incentives to direct you to improve their coin stash so they can lend out more loans.  I don't...think there's ever been reference to a loan from Nenyuk that I've seen, but I never played a nenyuki agent, either.  Just a Nenyuki guard.  I believe their profit comes directly from unclaimed funds and property management.

You may say that gives incentive for -more- free banking, but I think it does not.  In a world like Zalanthas, it all ends up in the bank at some point or another.  Even if it's after being buried for a century and rediscovered by a guy who is suddenly rich and needs a safe place to store it until he can hire help.

Edit:  I could be completely wrong on the moneylending thing.  This is just an impression of mine.  Just kind of reiterating that what they actually -sell- is security, not monetary gain.

[KankWhisperer]

I'd be mad but Nenyuk usually gets more than 20% of my hoard when I die. I can't recall ever actually spending so much the tax would make me broke.

[LauraMars]

50,000 coins of your own noble's money?  Before or after the changes that increased noble pay?  Nothing reimbursed or assisted at all from the noble house?

40k, yes, after, and nothing was reimbursed.  It's fine, it was a plot thing and I was cool with it.  But just saying, it can happen.  (it was time sensitive too...I had to come up with 40k in about 2 weeks.  I did it though, because I had the best minions. <3)

Anyway, the bank account system has until now basically behaved as if it were copy/pasted from diku stock code.  I've never liked it.  so it's nice that things are shifting around and starting to morph into something that might resemble a realistic economy one day.  I really, really hope that social/political status will be taken into account (hah) soon.  Sponsored social roles have it tough sometimes, I hate to think of their cashflow being burned with the same torch that's burning the ivory hair needle cartel.  Especially since that wouldn't make much IC sense.

[Saellyn]

50,000 coins of your own noble's money?  Before or after the changes that increased noble pay?  Nothing reimbursed or assisted at all from the noble house?

40k, yes, after, and nothing was reimbursed.  It's fine, it was a plot thing and I was cool with it.  But just saying, it can happen.  (it was time sensitive too...I had to come up with 40k in about 2 weeks.  I did it though, because I had the best minions. <3)

Minions can make you money, people, if you know how to utilize them.

[WithSprinkles]

My gawd I wanna cry.

[Is Friday]

Meh. Anyone earning that much for their noble in that short a period of time sniffs of abuse to me, (unless it was political deals.)

[Nyr]

50,000 coins of your own noble's money?  Before or after the changes that increased noble pay?  Nothing reimbursed or assisted at all from the noble house?

40k, yes, after, and nothing was reimbursed.  It's fine, it was a plot thing and I was cool with it.  But just saying, it can happen.  (it was time sensitive too...I had to come up with 40k in about 2 weeks.  I did it though, because I had the best minions. <3)

Ah, I was able to read up on that situation after you laid out the number.  The amounts are close enough (what's 10k between friends?) but the situation is not the same as the one depicted.  It's one thing to need x amount of coin for something plot-based (whether brought upon by oneself, other PCs, or etc) and then to scrape it together because of a short time frame (or enlarged bank account, whichever the case may be).  

It's quite another to be expected to finance a public event with no assistance from the House.  That's the part I am saying is absurd, and that's what I'm pointing out as "extreme" with the 50k example.

[musashi]

I'm not thinking about modern American banks exclusively, I'm rolling Renaissance banks and even early guild banks into my analysis.  I will admit that I'm not familiar with banking practice in Babylon or any other sufficiently awful premodern society.  But I was under the impression that what they had there functioned moreso as vaults and treasuries rather than a proper bank.

Banking and Business in the Roman World by Jean Andreau is a really good read when it comes to how banking functioned in an ancient republic vs an ancient dictatorship, since it covers how Rome handled finance both when the Senate held power, and after the rise of the Roman Emperor as a system of rule.

[musashi]

I'm not thinking about modern American banks exclusively, I'm rolling Renaissance banks and even early guild banks into my analysis.  I will admit that I'm not familiar with banking practice in Babylon or any other sufficiently awful premodern society.  But I was under the impression that what they had there functioned moreso as vaults and treasuries rather than a proper bank.

You could also read Financing Civilization, by William N. Goetzmann.

It lays it out pretty well using the ancient city of Uruk as an example. Basically ... the temple dedicated to the Goddess collected 100% of everyone's labor then redistributed it "in accordance with the Goddess' will" among the people in ... less than equitable amounts.

While not a perfect comparison, I think this maps on pretty well to Allanak. Nenyuk is the means by which the state collects a massive amount of everyone's labor, and then the state redistributes that "in accordnance with the Highlord's will" and out of that shake ... it turns out poor people are robbed blind and the nobles and templarate get really, really rich. GMH's have the bartering chip of skilled labor with which to carve themselves out a class above commoners but below nobles ... in a sense becoming the Uncle Tom's of the state's plantation ... and everyone else gets screwed.

[Delirium]

Just seems like another disincentive for doing anything. Why bother to earn more than a minimum of coin. Why give a crap if someone offers you money if your pouch already has 150 coins in it.

This sums up my thoughts on the change itself.

My characters rarely buy anything after about the ~3 days played mark.  They have gear, and skills to survive off of.  Anything extra is just icing on the cake, in case the need for some future luxury came up.  So now I'll drop an emergency fund in the bank, and not save anything past that.  Woo, now my character will spend his monthly pay on 6 drinks at the Gaj, instead of just 3.  Okay.

This, plus the comment about income disparity. Casual players already have it rough enough. This makes it even rougher.

[AdamBlue]

I'm not thinking about modern American banks exclusively, I'm rolling Renaissance banks and even early guild banks into my analysis.  I will admit that I'm not familiar with banking practice in Babylon or any other sufficiently awful premodern society.  But I was under the impression that what they had there functioned moreso as vaults and treasuries rather than a proper bank.

You could also read Financing Civilization, by William N. Goetzmann.

It lays it out pretty well using the ancient city of Uruk as an example. Basically ... the temple dedicated to the Goddess collected 100% of everyone's labor then redistributed it "in accordance with the Goddess' will" among the people in ... less than equitable amounts.

While not a perfect comparison, I think this maps on pretty well to Allanak. Nenyuk is the means by which the state collects a massive amount of everyone's labor, and then the state redistributes that "in accordnance with the Highlord's will" and out of that shake ... it turns out poor people are robbed blind and the nobles and templarate get really, really rich. GMH's have the bartering chip of skilled labor with which to carve themselves out a class above commoners but below nobles ... in a sense becoming the Uncle Tom's of the state's plantation ... and everyone else gets screwed.

In the same text you talk about, 'Financing Civilization', the temple of the goddess was the entire governmental system. They created the currency, redistributed it. It is nothing like Allanak. Allanak is ruled by Templarite, Noble, and Merchant houses. Uruk was controlled by a single 'big government system'. It would be a better comparison if the Templarate owned and controlled the banks in that case.
In the same text you refer to, it later speaks of the Merchants of Ur who gave loans and collected the interest on a yearly basis. They had basic ideas of interest and indeed had many scholars at the time that understood at least the principles of economics.

[Clearsighted]

Someone has to replace the sponsored lieutenant when they fall down a hole.

I bet cha once that starts happening folks will settle down about that particular complaint 

Doubt it, since only 2 people wanted to play someone boxed into Lieutenant for their entire lifetime.

I'm sure there are plenty that would've enjoyed the opportunity, but aren't willing to store/screw over their current role to chase the next big thing.

[musashi]

In the same text you talk about, 'Financing Civilization', the temple of the goddess was the entire governmental system. They created the currency, redistributed it. It is nothing like Allanak. Allanak is ruled by Templarite, Noble, and Merchant houses. Uruk was controlled by a single 'big government system'. It would be a better comparison if the Templarate owned and controlled the banks in that case.
In the same text you refer to, it later speaks of the Merchants of Ur who gave loans and collected the interest on a yearly basis. They had basic ideas of interest and indeed had many scholars at the time that understood at least the principles of economics.

I said it was not a perfect comparison. But Allanak is not ruled by templarate, nobles, and merchant houses. The helpfile on Allanak makes it pretty clear.

Every whim of Highlord Tektolnes instantly becomes Allanaki law, and his templar soldier-priests enforce it with brutal efficiency. The nobles of the city are the Highlord's puppets, their lives spent gathering popular support and serving in a Senate whose decisions are somehow always in perfect accord with His Gloriousness's latest decree.

Allanak is ruled by the Highlord, and his power is not distributed into several branches of government to ensure checks and balances.
The idea that the senate or the great merchant houses are in charge, is illusory.

Any attempt at political upheaval in the game's history has been met with dragons in the sky and a mass extermination event targeting the opposition.



That aside, though ... the point I was buttressing was that while I am sure Nenyuk will try to maximize capital, (the same way the usurers of Uruk did) I imagine they are limited in their capacity to do that by the state in which they operate (the same way the usurers of Uruk were).

[Synthesis]

I'm at 10k, 15%.

Zero fucks given, personally.  The only reason I have that much in the first place is because you can't buy more 1337 gear past a certain point, without looking like a total douche.

I don't know how this is getting pagerolled so hard.

So much crying...if you got the skills to scrape together that much phat lewt, 15% ain't shit.  20% ain't shit.  Hell, I could take all my coins out, bury them in the desert, and carry on like it didn't fucking matter, because it doesn't.

[Suhuy]

Hmmm, but from a meta perspective I really like the thought of nobles starting to carry lots of coins. Think of how much more tempting targets they would make, despite the absurd degree of danger?

But that's the problem, carrying a ton of coins doesn't make any sense!  Coin is super heavy, and that's the last thing a noble would tote around.  WTB tokens/writs worth more, that can be redeemed at the bank (with a fee on the issuing of the token/writ, rather than redemption).

Maybe not every coin is worth one obsidian piece only. Perhaps there are 25-piece coins and 50-piece coins, etc.

[AdamBlue]

I'm at 10k, 15%.

Zero fucks given, personally.  The only reason I have that much in the first place is because you can't buy more 1337 gear past a certain point, without looking like a total douche.

I don't know how this is getting pagerolled so hard.

So much crying...if you got the skills to scrape together that much phat lewt, 15% ain't shit.  20% ain't shit.  Hell, I could take all my coins out, bury them in the desert, and carry on like it didn't fucking matter, because it doesn't.

Honestly?
It just drives me fffuuuccking nuts because THAT IS NOT HOW BANKS WORK. ICly my character hardly fucking cares. OOCly, it just drives me nuts because people don't understand the implications of how much of a fucking problem this is going to be.