Bank Changes Discussion Thread

[Desertman]

Considering 1000 coins is a month's rent for a shitty little hole in the wall apartment, I think those brackets need to be adjusted.

Seeing as how Nenyuk actually runs the leasing of apartments in the Known world, I could see a future change being something like....

balance


"You have 5,000 coins in your account."
"You are a lease holder with Nenyuk, so your account fees are halved. Nenyuk appreciates your business. Any withdraws you make will be charged a 7.5% fee for my time."

[Synthesis]

Considering 1000 coins is a month's rent for a shitty little hole in the wall apartment, I think those brackets need to be adjusted.

Carrying 1,000 coins in your inventory isn't a huge hassle for anyone except maybe elves with poor strength.

And there are no elves with poor strength, because they all suicide ASAP.

[nauta]

Considering 1000 coins is a month's rent for a shitty little hole in the wall apartment, I think those brackets need to be adjusted.

Um, I've never paid over 500 for an apartment.

[Desertman]

Considering 1000 coins is a month's rent for a shitty little hole in the wall apartment, I think those brackets need to be adjusted.

Um, I've never paid over 500 for an apartment.

I think a more interesting point to be made is that this is going to suck the big one for already underpaid merchant House employees.

How much money does a merchant House hunter make?

Their first year...usually nothing.

Their second year...400 - 500 coins a month?

But this is also making the assumption we WANT those people using banks. We may very well NOT want them using them.

I feel like one of the big features of this change (that I personally like) was to get people to carry more of their personal wealth on them or figure out ways to secure their personal wealth that is not 100% safe.

Why? Because it opens up more bait for raiders and thieves, and raiders and thieves are FUN to encounter, and FUN to play.

A lot more fun to play than 100% safe bank accounts for free.

[Desertman]

What I would LOVE is if someone opened up a little "bank on the side" with lower fees than Nenyuk for common people. That would open up so many doors for so much fun and potential hijinks.

The problem is I think it would take about 13 seconds for a staff animated Nenyuk NPC to come crush that person and shit all over them immediately.

[Nyr]

Yeah, if you're referring to the price at the apartment masters (which is for 125 days, a half-month), all are definitely under that.

If you mean monthly (doubling that amount) yes.  There are many apartments that are over 1000 per month.  There are also several that are very cheap.  Personal space is at a premium; so is security.  Different clans have different amounts of offsetting for that (pay or quarters as compensation).

What I would LOVE is if someone opened up a little "bank on the side" with lower fees than Nenyuk for common people. That would open up so many doors for so much fun and potential hijinks.

Cool idea!

The problem is I think it would take about 13 seconds for a staff animated Nenyuk NPC to come crush that person and shit all over them immediately.

Oh, right.  I forgot.

[Desertman]

[Delirium]

Considering 1000 coins is a month's rent for a shitty little hole in the wall apartment, I think those brackets need to be adjusted.

Um, I've never paid over 500 for an apartment.

The "rent" is a half-month of rent. Double that and you have the true monthly rent of an apartment.

[nessalin]

It is worth clarifying that we really do get to decide where we put our effort into the game.  Really, we do.  Complaints, even when poorly dressed up as suggestions, implying to the contrary don't improve how receptive we'll be to player feedback in the future.

[Desertman]

It is worth clarifying that we really do get to decide where we put our effort into the game.  Really, we do.  Complaints, even when poorly dressed up as suggestions, implying to the contrary don't improve how receptive we'll be to player feedback in the future.

I feel bad for this man now.

For what it's worth, I think this change is the shit. I've wanted this for so many years. I love you man.

Desertman - January 18th, 2012.

Free Banking:

There may be some in-game explanation for why Nenyuk offers what seems to be a free service to the populace of Zalanthas, but because I don't know what that reason is, it just looks like a free service to me.

There might not be free drinks of water in Zalanthas, but there is free banking, or at least it appears that way.

I guess one explanation might be that with the high rate of  mortality in the population a lot of bank balances get absorbed by Nenyuk/taken over when their owners die and this is how Nenyuk makes a lot of profit. I agree, that makes perfect sense actually.

That being said, its still not very much fun and doesn't seem to add anything to the game, and there is a lot of potential to add to the game here.

As already mentioned, I would love to see Nenyuk charge you a fee for transferring your account balances from city to city, but that would require the end of universal banking so we won't go into that anymore.

What if Nenyuk charged you a monthly fee for "handling" your account balances for you? What would be a proper Zalanthan banking fee for a commoner's account? Twenty percent? Thirty percent? What if being a member of a House got you a break on these fees? It would make House employment that much more appealing. And of course Houses in general, both Noble and Merchant would receive big cuts, or possibly still receive free banking.

What if being a breed or an elf made your banking fees higher? Hmmm. So on and so forth.

That being said, if Nenyuk charges you a monthly fee, why even leave your coins with Nenyuk? Well obviously because Nenyuk's guards make sure your balance stays where its at, and not in the pockets of thieves and raiders right? You let Nenyuk take its thirty percent every month and in return the world of cuthroats dont get the full one hundred percent, and possibly your life in the process of taking it. That seems very Zalanthan to me.

This would open up a window for things like, crime bosses and loansharks providing a under the table banking setup for a slightly lower monthly fee or people choosing to keep their fortunes on their person, or under lock and key somewhere else. But you know, locks aren't perfect, and you can't always trust the people you hire to guard your fortune for you. Thats the risk, and everything in Zalanthas should have some sort of risk.

[Marauder Moe]

Did not expect this to be an 11-page discussion...

[Delirium]

I appreciate that Nessalin. We're all human over here.

It's equally frustrating for players - who are the lifeblood of the game and who actually experience how things are on the ground floor and are directly impacted by these changes - to try and offer constructive criticism and get the "we decide where we put our effort in" line and be ignored.

Or to have a perfectly valid concern dismissed because we didn't spend 5 more minutes agonizing over the perfect way to phrase it.

I try to be tactful. Maybe I should use more smiley faces.

[Delirium]

Yeah, if you're referring to the price at the apartment masters (which is for 125 days, a half-month), all are definitely under that.

If you mean monthly (doubling that amount) yes.  There are many apartments that are over 1000 per month.  There are also several that are very cheap.  Personal space is at a premium; so is security.  Different clans have different amounts of offsetting for that (pay or quarters as compensation).

Then we need more shitty hole in the wall apartments because sometimes your only options are "more personal space than you needed or wanted, or nowhere to put your stuff at all ever". Character concepts do not always jive with joining a clan just so you have a locker to fill up with all the crap you have to carry. And at least two apartment buildings with a ton of apartments in them have been made off-limits to independant characters. Realistically you'd be able to just shack up with a bunch of virtual buddies but codewise you can't do that.

So you're stuck renting what you can find or constantly juggling large bags at VERY HEAVY!

[Desertman]

Yeah, if you're referring to the price at the apartment masters (which is for 125 days, a half-month), all are definitely under that.

If you mean monthly (doubling that amount) yes.  There are many apartments that are over 1000 per month.  There are also several that are very cheap.  Personal space is at a premium; so is security.  Different clans have different amounts of offsetting for that (pay or quarters as compensation).

Then we need more shitty hole in the wall apartments because sometimes your only options are "more personal space than you needed or wanted, or nowhere to put your stuff at all ever". Character concepts do not always jive with joining a clan just so you have a locker to fill up with all the crap you have to carry. And at least two apartment buildings with a ton of apartments in them have been made off-limits to independant characters. Realistically you'd be able to just shack up with a bunch of virtual buddies but codewise you can't do that.

So you're stuck renting what you can find or constantly juggling large bags at VERY HEAVY!

I have also wondered why some of the more crappy places don't let you put "more" people on your lease. I can understand the "finer" places don't want you shacking up with 10 of your rinthi buds to sleep on the floor in your squalor and ruin the place. Makes sense.

Why do they care if you all huddle together like some sick pack of rats on the floor of their already crappy craphole? You can't hurt what's already a piece of junk really.

Seems like an unnecessary restriction. (Unless there is a reason in the code for it.)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, of course they want you to rent more apartments.

But yes, realistically, no reason to not add roomies. Maybe not ten, though. You don't want a tiny apartment becoming a clan hall.

[Delirium]

Well, of course they want you to rent more apartments.

But yes, realistically, no reason to not add roomies. Maybe not ten, though. You don't want a tiny apartment becoming a clan hall.

10 people is not a clan. It's a family with two moms, one dad, one layabout uncle, and six kids.

[Desertman]

Well, of course they want you to rent more apartments.

But yes, realistically, no reason to not add roomies. Maybe not ten, though. You don't want a tiny apartment becoming a clan hall.

10 people is not a clan. It's a family with two moms, one dad, one layabout uncle, and six kids.

Truth, unless it's a little pack of pickpockets or something, which would be awesome. 7DV, let me run my little clan of pickpocket children man. You killing me here bro.

(Seriously though, you run into space issues with just two people on a lease. What sort of clan would you have with 10 people on one lease? The kind where everyone gets to store one pouch of rocks and that's it? Would be such a shit clan lol.)

[Nyr]

A concern can be both perfectly valid and also fairly minor in the grand scheme of things.

If you have an apartment that costs you 1000 per month, and you store your money in the bank, then:

For your bank account less than 2000 coins, you are out 50 coins each time you pay rent.
For your bank account 2000-4999 coins, you are out 100 coins each time you pay rent.
For your bank account 5000-14999 coins, you are out 150 coins each time you pay rent.
For your bank account 15000-29999 coins, you are out 200 coins each time you pay rent.
For your bank account 30000+ coins, you are out 250 coins each time you pay rent.

Might we still change things?  Yes, we might change this along with the other changes coming as well.

[Nyr]

Before we make adjustments to the numbers of people that can to rent with any particular renter (pretty easy to do, just need to review and identify which places would benefit from it/go through a proposal for it to be sure there's nothing else we want to change with apartments while we are in there), we probably would want to automate the process of apartment lease ownership transfer.  That would increase, and the only way to fix that now is a manual fix.

[Suhuy]

Nobles are the best positioned to disregard this change regardless of personal wealth, because mostly secure noble estates are a thing.

But why would a merchant house institute a policy which results in them losing their best clients? I suppose we can look at it as something of a suspension of disbelief scenario. No code will be perfect and sometimes we all have to apply a bit of suspension of disbelief to the situation anyway. But I think there are workable solutions here that would still retain the initial idea of Nenyuk charging for their services (which they should do! I'm definitely on board with that).

In a world like Zalanthas, I don't really think this requires a suspension of disbelief.

I feel it is pretty IC.

Is it realistic by modern day first world standards? Absolutely not.

Actually, I think what Lauramars and others mentioned earlier suggests that the opposite is true. The new banking system is suitable to first world standards and is not fitting with a harsh world environment. When you're asking the rich to contribute more BECAUSE they are rich, you're thinking very modern indeed. Fairness for all should not be an every day trait on Zalanthas.

Understand, I'm only being mildly critical about this, however, because I support the overall idea which has been implemented, and I believe the banking system should cost for its services (just like stabling an animal for endless months at a time should cost more than 20 coins). But it does seem like Nenyuk would simply lose all their noble customers when they have a free, 99% safe alternative to the bank. If the Great Merchant House is fine with that, more power to them. To most merchants a noble is the sort of customer you should be willing to go to great lengths to prevent any loss of business. They're buying your yachts and private jets after all while everyone else is small time by comparison.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

But, players, D. Not NPCs or VNPCs. We're talking about players here. You can't have a PC family that large.

On another note, I take back what I said about silly large accounts. You don't have to have a silly large account at all to incur the 20 percent tax. I actually got taxed 50 percent during testing of this, with one of the withdrawals. SO yeh, this new tax thing is harsh.

Still, I'm actually alright with this. Why? Because this motivates me to go spend it on shit, like booze, and spice, and tattoos, and gear, and smoozing. And if I want to save up for something big, I still have that nice secure place to store it, for a hefty protection fee, of course. I still wish coin was represented by gems, though. Obsidian chinks - meh.

Staff, next step? Making things wear out.

Weapons, on a hit counter. Flags: Worn, worn out, useless. Blunt weapons take longer to wear out. None of these can be repaired if worn out. Repair kits, or, a weapon repair skill, remove the used flag and reset the hit counter if used before a weapon becomes worn out.

Clothing, on an outdoors room movement counter. Worn, worn out, ragged. Can be repaired to remove flags if clothing does not hit worn out. After clothing hits worn out, can be repaired to patched flag.

Tools - wait, you're on this. Alright, good.

More avenues to spend coin on needed things. Yes, let's do it.

[Nyr]

On another note, I take back what I said about silly large accounts. You don't have to have a silly large account at all to incur the 20 percent tax. I actually got taxed 50 percent during testing of this, with one of the withdrawals. SO yeh, this new tax thing is harsh.

That would be a bug, unless you were withdrawing 100 coins.  Then, yes, you got charged appropriately.

[Desertman]

Nobles are the best positioned to disregard this change regardless of personal wealth, because mostly secure noble estates are a thing.

But why would a merchant house institute a policy which results in them losing their best clients? I suppose we can look at it as something of a suspension of disbelief scenario. No code will be perfect and sometimes we all have to apply a bit of suspension of disbelief to the situation anyway. But I think there are workable solutions here that would still retain the initial idea of Nenyuk charging for their services (which they should do! I'm definitely on board with that).

In a world like Zalanthas, I don't really think this requires a suspension of disbelief.

I feel it is pretty IC.

Is it realistic by modern day first world standards? Absolutely not.

Actually, I think what Lauramars and others mentioned earlier suggests that the opposite is true. The new banking system is suitable to first world standards and is not fitting with a harsh world environment. When you're asking the rich to contribute more BECAUSE they are rich, you're thinking very modern indeed. Fairness for all should not be an every day trait on Zalanthas.

Understand, I'm only being mildly critical about this, however, because I support the overall idea which has been implemented, and I believe the banking system should cost for its services (just like stabling an animal for endless months at a time should cost more than 20 coins). But it does seem like Nenyuk would simply lose all their noble customers when they have a free, 99% safe alternative to the bank. If the Great Merchant House is fine with that, more power to them. To most merchants a noble is the sort of customer you should be willing to go to great lengths to prevent any loss of business. They're buying your yachts and private jets after all while everyone else is small time by comparison.

I agree with your assessment.

I'm just saying, I can see a way to also justify the way it currently is. "Nenyuk knows the rich have far more to lose in this dangerous world. Nenyuk knows the rich can afford it and will pay it if they charge it.".

Besides, who's to say that behind the scenes Kadius, Salarr, and Kurac aren't getting some serious tax breaks or whatever through Nenyuk on their holdings etc at the end of every year to balance out what appears to be high banking fees?

It really comes down to how you want to look at it and what sort of excuses you want to use to justify your point of view.

Your point of view is absolutely valid and I would be fine if it went that way too. I'm just saying, I can think of excuses for WHY it is the way it is now too.

[Desertman]

On another note, I take back what I said about silly large accounts. You don't have to have a silly large account at all to incur the 20 percent tax. I actually got taxed 50 percent during testing of this, with one of the withdrawals. SO yeh, this new tax thing is harsh.

That would be a bug, unless you were withdrawing 100 coins.  Then, yes, you got charged appropriately.

Haha, that man withdrew 100 coins....I did the same damn thing. Also complained it was 50%. *snicker*

[LauraMars]

well I'm just holding out hope that more IC realism & awareness of social status will be worked into the bank fees, as Nyr stated up thread.  I don't think we need to search too hard for IC explanations of why large account holding nobles are being robbed of 20-25% of their net worth if that's something that's on the docket to be changed.  It doesn't make a lick of IC sense, but neither did Nenyuk not charging a fee at all.

sometimes the code is just the code.