Bank Changes Discussion Thread

[Mordiggian]

I like the idea of banking being a little more restrictive in theory, but I think the withdrawal fee rates need to be adjusted downwards.  They are excessive if what I have read in this thread is accurate.

I also think it would feel less punitive if the fees were levied on deposit rather than on withdrawal.  Alternatively, a system of annual fees for having accounts beyond a certain size would be okay by me too.

As it stands, this amounts primarily to a massive buff towards burglars and raiders.

Don't assume everything people are posting in this thread is accurate.

And I don't think it's a bad thing if it increases opportunities for murder, corruption, and betrayal. The intention was certainly not to make things easier for people trying to amass wealth.

I really like this idea!

Hopefully it encourages people to sock away their coin in their trunks or just carry more of it on their person.

Burglars and raiders rejoice!

My only question is, now that Nenyuk has a strong revenue-generating 'tax' in place, does that coin fill the coffers of the City in which the bank is located or will we be seeing a sudden increase in fancy, Nenyuk-financed construction projects?

Assume that Nenyuk always collected banking fees virtually. We did not have code to enable this function until recently.

[wizturbo]

Fifty thousand coins is just being rich and having access to tons of luxury items. Why do you care if you're losing some of it on a withdrawal? Just make more money. You're clearly good at it.

This is what you're not grasping...  The people who put on those festivals do spend 50k coins, and they don't "make" the money, they accumulate it in stipends over the course of RL months.  By making it take 20% more RL months to accumulate said money, you're making it harder for them to put on more festivals.

This change is hurting the people on stipends for more than the people who go out and can farm up more sid by foraging, crafting, ectera, because they're on a fixed income and the foraging crowd is not.

Sure, those same stipend crowd can go off and ask the staff to give them some money, but that takes a lot of work too.  Staff aren't exactly generous with...well...anything.  It's probably more OOC work to ask the staff for the money, than it is to try and accumulate it yourself in-game, unless you're asking for some absurdly massive amount of money.

[Lizzie]

If you're a noble, then you have access to the clan account. You deposit your funds into the clan account, and in your next weekly character report, you make sure to point out that the 50,000 extra in the clan account is your deposit to cover the expense of the project you are working on, on behalf of your clan. Then, you won't have to pay any fee to withdraw it, when the time comes. And it's 100% safe from theft - unless your co-clannie decides to murder-corrupt-betray you. Which can create some interesting drama, when you tell everyone you ordered stuff from that your Lord Cousin has kindly offered to pay the tab

[Nergal]

The problem with this is that the people who were voicing for these fees is a small but vocal minority.
The majority probably don't want to have to deal with stupid fees and they thought the vocal minority, like many very vocal minority groups would, not really do anything and just bugger off. The problem with this is that everyone hates it because the majority who is quiet really, really hates it for multiple reasons.
1. Suddenness
2. The lack of sense and reason behind it
3. The distinct change of how the game functions in a manner.
4. more reasons ect

Anyway, I hope this is taken out and reworked as the current state is pretty terrible. Knowing how it works, though, because they spent time making it they're just gonna leave it in even if most people don't like it.

There was never actually a majority for any particular idea, as far as I can remember. Nor is there a majority who hates the idea, as it is way too early to establish such.

Keeping that in mind, I think it is fair to say that most people agree the economy has needed a serious overhaul. However, it is impractical, time-consuming, and jarring to prepare a blanket system of changes and implement it all simultaneously. This change is like spot-cleaning a corner of something with a new cleaning product to see if it ruins the corner, or if it's good to use everywhere else. Whether this change has its intended effects is what will drive staff action going forward, not necessarily player opinion of a change mere hours after implementation, well within the window where there tends to be extreme views on any given change to the game no matter what that change happens to be.

[Saellyn]

If you're a noble, then you have access to the clan account. You deposit your funds into the clan account, and in your next weekly character report, you make sure to point out that the 50,000 extra in the clan account is your deposit to cover the expense of the project you are working on, on behalf of your clan. Then, you won't have to pay any fee to withdraw it, when the time comes. And it's 100% safe from theft - unless your co-clannie decides to murder-corrupt-betray you. Which can create some interesting drama, when you tell everyone you ordered stuff from that your Lord Cousin has kindly offered to pay the tab

See: Saellyn's post earlier in the thread, where he made mention of this idea. Now it's officially backed by Lizzie, folks.

[aeglaeca]

... So what?

If I have 10k, first of all, why do I give  a fuck if I lose 1k on withdrawals? I still have a whole load of cash. If I have fucking 50k, I don't care if I lose 10k or whatever of that. I still have TONS of cash. I don't need to worry about that shit.

If you have 50k because you saved 4 RL months worth of your stipend and you need that money to throw yourself a fantabulous birthday party with illegal spice and underground boxing (or whatever) then you probably care about losing 10k. Yes, I am clearly not accounting for supplementary income here.

If you're a noble, then you have access to the clan account. You deposit your funds into the clan account, and in your next weekly character report, you make sure to point out that the 50,000 extra in the clan account is your deposit to cover the expense of the project you are working on, on behalf of your clan. Then, you won't have to pay any fee to withdraw it, when the time comes. And it's 100% safe from theft - unless your co-clannie decides to murder-corrupt-betray you. Which can create some interesting drama, when you tell everyone you ordered stuff from that your Lord Cousin has kindly offered to pay the tab

Why is House Fancypants not subject to fees but Lord Fancypants is? Especially considering the coin comes from the state to begin with?

[Lizzie]

Most people who need festival money don't need -fifty thousand- for it.

Fifty thousand coins is just being rich and having access to tons of luxury items. Why do you care if you're losing some of it on a withdrawal? Just make more money. You're clearly good at it.

Those of us who think 3k is a lot to have will continue to just make money and deal with the bank accounts the way we always have.

They're talking about the people who are organizing the festival, not the people attending it and buying stuff from it. Festivals take a lot of planning. And a lot of sids. Often, festivals involve different PCs contributing funds to cover the expenses - and those funds get pooled into a single account, so that when the bill comes from Kadius, Salarr, the Atrium, the Byn, the Arm, and the Templarate, there only need be one person responsible for paying it all out.

[Saellyn]

Why does Lord Fancypants need his own account in the first place? Everything he has should be provided by the family, who is more than happy to keep track of the amount of money he takes out (so, assumedly, what he puts in is also taken into account).

[Mordiggian]

Lady Fancypants and Lord Templar Fuckwood do have highly secure personal quarters to store excess funds if they find their account with Nenyuk is reaching dangerous levels.

[aeglaeca]

Why does Lord Fancypants need his own account in the first place? Everything he has should be provided by the family, who is more than happy to keep track of the amount of money he takes out (so, assumedly, what he puts in is also taken into account).

Because Lord Fancypants' devious cousin Senior Lady Schmoozealot needs a new silk dress for next week's party and is also in charge of the books.

It just seems like if you're advocating for 'just use the clan accounts' you're going to run into problems which involve noble staff sitting down for an extra 30 minutes a week to make sure your purchase of a drink and pastry, three spice bricks and brand new sparkly princess tiara add up.

[ShaLeah]

We had a long discussion about this at the APM.

I'm alright with it.

[wizturbo]

Lady Fancypants and Lord Templar Fuckwood do have highly secure personal quarters to store excess funds if they find their account with Nenyuk is reaching dangerous levels.

Highly secure from external thieves, yes.  Meanwhile, they lose the convenience of the bank, and are still at risk of losing huge sums of money to internal thieves, or other less conventional means of theft.  Which would be fine, if this coin wasn't earmarked for something that is intended to create content for the game.

Is this the end of the world?  No, of course not.  It's just not a positive thing in my opinion.  It's making the game more logistically difficult for leaders , who already have a lot on their plate.  I do like the effect it'll have on non-leaders though, although, I think the exact same thing could've been achieved through a different implementation of the same code.

[Armaddict]

Lady Fancypants and Lord Templar Fuckwood do have highly secure personal quarters to store excess funds if they find their account with Nenyuk is reaching dangerous levels.

This point has been reiterated many times.  People who hit this level of coin who are not nobles...this is worth it, for the matter of -extremely- safe banking.  You literally do not have to worry about theft while it's deposited.  If you want to avoid the fees, you -do- have to worry about theft.

Nobles and templars and grand merchant kingpins tend to have highly secure personal grounds that allow them to decide between using the bank or using an extremely safe compound.  In which case you're literally griping about having to:

a)Plan ahead before leaving your estate.
b)Walk further than you want to in order to reach your estate for an unforeseen expense.
c)Use your estate.

Or, people can carry around a bunch of coins and become vulnerable to cutpurses.  And cutpurses run into the same dilemma as everyone else.

Also.  I think this should push for that sliding bolt lock idea I presented awhile ago, so that people actually secure their homes and sleep in them, and so that burglars making marks have to actually...study their marks.  

[Armaddict]

Highly secure from external thieves, yes.  Meanwhile, they lose the convenience of the bank, and are still at risk of losing huge sums of money to internal thieves, or other less conventional means of theft.  Which would be fine, if this coin wasn't earmarked for something that is intended to create content for the game.

Seriously?  Now you're saying utter coin security is required for plot development because thieves and heists are merely plot and content removers?

[wizturbo]

Anyone who thinks a noble compound is an impenetrable barrier of security is deluding themselves.  I'm going to look forward to the grand-theft stories that come from this.

[Armaddict]

Anyone who thinks a noble compound is an impenetrable barrier of security is deluding themselves.  I'm going to look forward to the grand-theft stories that come from this.

Me too.  High-Prestige heists are pretty awesome in this game, and hard to pull off.

[Mordiggian]

Anyone who thinks a noble compound is an impenetrable barrier of security is deluding themselves.  I'm going to look forward to the grand-theft stories that come from this.

This is not a bad thing.

[Nyr]

Fifty thousand coins is just being rich and having access to tons of luxury items. Why do you care if you're losing some of it on a withdrawal? Just make more money. You're clearly good at it.

This is what you're not grasping...  The people who put on those festivals do spend 50k coins, and they don't "make" the money, they accumulate it in stipends over the course of RL months.  By making it take 20% more RL months to accumulate said money, you're making it harder for them to put on more festivals.

Let's say this "I have to spend 50k of my own money as a noble for this festival, and can't use any money from the House to help out with that, and no one else is helping out with the festival, no, it all comes out of my own account" thing is true.

The poorest noble tier (doing nothing else) could raise this much money in 3 IC years by doing nothing except logging in and getting their stipends.  The richest noble tier (doing nothing else) could raise this much in about 1.5 IC years.  If this is the biggest concern, I think they'll be okay waiting a week or two more if they wish to use Nenyuk to store their coin.

[Nyr]

If noble or templar bank accounts are a concern to noble/templar players, please correspond with your clan staff (or address Nyr or Adhira in the request tool).  We would be open to doing a one-time transfer to you (no fees/etc) if you have funds that you feel are tied up in a bad way.

[wizturbo]

Well, I'm sick of arguing about this.  In the end, it'll all just come down to personal opinion anyway, so it's a lot of wasted breath.

I'd like to say this will effect my current PC in almost no way, so my motivations for arguing for different fee rates/structures is purely because I think it'd be better for the game.  Certain roles will be impacted by this a lot more than others.  There's also a certain amount of "omg, some of you really don't understand economics" but I suppose that's just my RL profession seeping through

I'd like to restate, I'm really happy for these changes to be made.  I think this is a net positive thing for the game as a whole.  I just think it could be MORE net positive, if implemented in slightly different ways.

(Idea for improvement:  putting a cap on the maximum withdrawal fee, so if you want to stash 50k, it won't cost you 10k, but might cost you 1-2k instead.  Meaningless for the average player, but so much more convenient/accommodating for the big expense payers out there)

[AdamBlue]

Well, I'm sick of arguing about this.  In the end, it'll all just come down to personal opinion anyway, so it's a lot of wasted breath.

I'd like to say this will effect my current PC in almost no way, so my motivations for arguing for different fee rates/structures is purely because I think it'd be better for the game.  There's also a certain amount of "omg, some of you really don't understand economics" but I suppose that's just my RL profession seeping through

I'd like to restate, I'm really happy for these changes to be made.  I think this is a net positive thing for the game as a whole.  I just think it could be MORE net positive, if implemented in slightly different ways.

(Idea for improvement:  putting a cap on the maximum withdrawal fee, so if you want to stash 50k, it won't cost you 10k, but might cost you 1-2k instead.  Meaningless for the average player, but so much more convenient/accommodating for the big expense payers out there)

I think they should revamp this to not effect smaller bank accounts, personally. Or reduce it to 5% or less.

[musashi]

Anyone who thinks a noble compound is an impenetrable barrier of security is deluding themselves.  I'm going to look forward to the grand-theft stories that come from this.

I'm looking forward to them too.

For now, my advice would be:

• If you want to save up a huge sum of money to drive a plot, get with staff about it, let them know you're putting the money in Nenyuk for that reason and either use your clan account, or your personal account with the stipulation that the withdraw will be fee-free when the time comes.
• If you want to save up a huge sum of money because your character's life is dope and he does dope shit, put it in a chest in your room.

[Erythil]

I guess my feeling on this -- and why I think some people are responding negatively -- iis that it seems game-y and engineered to try and produce a desired result, rather than being an honest reflection of any kind of banking practice, fair or otherwise, that has been utilized in human history.  Typically, the bigger the account, the lower the fee, as more money in the vault allows the bank more funds with which to issue loans and play in various markets.  And Nenyuk would assumedly be looking to maximize their capital rather than enforce the social hierarchy by punishing rich independents.

[musashi]

I guess my feeling on this -- and why I think some people are responding negatively -- iis that it seems game-y and engineered to try and produce a desired result, rather than being an honest reflection of any kind of banking practice, fair or otherwise, that has been utilized in human history.  Typically, the bigger the account, the lower the fee, as more money in the vault allows the bank more funds with which to issue loans and play in various markets.  And Nenyuk would assumedly be looking to maximize their capital rather than enforce the social hierarchy by punishing rich independents.

I'm not economic historian but ... in a dictatorship ... are banks allowed to operate in the same manner they do in modern day Amercia? I'm sure Nenyuk does want to maximize their capital, but I would think they are also beholden to the city of Allanak to enforce the social hierarchy as well, and so they end up trying to maximize their capital within the confines set by the state. Because Allanak is not a free market society.

[bardlyone]

I guess my feeling on this -- and why I think some people are responding negatively -- iis that it seems game-y and engineered to try and produce a desired result, rather than being an honest reflection of any kind of banking practice, fair or otherwise, that has been utilized in human history.  Typically, the bigger the account, the lower the fee, as more money in the vault allows the bank more funds with which to issue loans and play in various markets.  And Nenyuk would assumedly be looking to maximize their capital rather than enforce the social hierarchy by punishing rich independents.

I'm not economic historian but ... in a dictatorship ... are banks allowed to operate in the same manner they do in modern day Amercia? I'm sure Nenyuk does want to maximize their capital, but I would think they are also beholden to the city of Allanak to enforce the social hierarchy as well, and so they end up trying to maximize their capital within the confines set by the state. Because Allanak is not a free market society.

Not only that, but with all major goods and commodities safely monopolized by monolithic "family" entities, there's not actually any market to speak of. Much like with real life $$$, money in the bank and not out in circulation, as the richest of the rich would have, actually shrink an economy, not grows it. It's the free circulation of funds which reflects a larger economy, because more capital is in circulation, but that's another thing that's purely debate because of the breaks between reality and game reality, and the levels of what is vs isn't known, and a shitload of other factors.