Armageddon General Discussion Board

Quote from: Inks on October 19, 2015, 08:51:31 PM

Templars could even be paid to assign gemmed to a noble house, on a renewable contract. This would create an arms race for nobles to have the best mage working for them who can support their goals. (probably 1 per house but it would be in addition to the aide cap). It would also create magickal rivalries between house mages if done properly, which it turn would create work for pc assassins and thugs perhaps.

I really like the direction of this.  Nobles are highly educated (by Allanaki standards) and should realize more than the common populace that Gemmed are not nearly the threat to the city that the stupid commoner population might believe.  House Borsail hates magick, and they might have political allies who follow their lead (or pretend to follow their lead to get goodies from Borsail), but I see no reason why ~50% of the noble population couldn't have the Oashi opinion on magick.  

Magick is real.  Magick is incredibly useful.  Magick is the whole reason the Highlord Tektolnes rules Allanak with an iron fist, and he permits Gemmed to live in the city... So why would everyone but House Oash hate them?  House Oash (an Upper Tier House) understands magick's value...but the rest of the Houses are too stupid to understand it?!    To me, it just seems like some staffers arbitrary decided that's how the world should be, with no documented reason, and that's why it is what it is today.

I think the biggest offender of all is House Tor not having war mages anymore.  Allanak has these wildly powerful and advantageous weapons at their disposal, and House Tor, the most militant house in the city, that's all about tactics and glorious victory...doesn't want to have anything to do with them?!?!   HUH?  That makes no sense whatsoever, unless House Tor is sucking on Borsail's teet and giving up War Mages was the price they had to pay for that.

Keep in mind, I'm in no way advocating that noble House's flaunt their adoption of magick.  Even House Oash doesn't flaunt this.  But having behind the scenes, or subdued gemmed employee roles seems entirely logical to me.

Problem is that the role of nobility, in terms of the city, is often as a liaison between the populace and the templarate.  Templars are feared for their magick just as much as a gemmed is.  For nobility to embrace the thing that the common people are afraid of is a reversal of their role in the city (which is actually in the documentation for 'why templars need nobles').

In terms of keeping it secret, such happens.  However, keeping it secret is hard when they wear a gem.  If they do not wear a gem, it makes you potentially at odds with the templarate for having one that is not regulated and controlled.  If they do wear a gem, you can't exactly keep your use of magick away from the populace that you work with.

Edited to add:  Also.  Let's work on getting -mundanes- back into military clans before we suggest that they should be bodyguards again.

The entire game is catering to Mundanes already.  Mundanes are already in military clans, and military clans are by far the most populated clans in the entire game.

I don't see why everyone (and honestly, I don't think its everyone, I think its the vocal minority that posts on the GDB that tends to dislike magick) is opposed to adding some fucking roles for people who enjoy playing magickers.

Quote from: wizturbo on October 20, 2015, 08:04:41 PM
The entire game is catering to Mundanes already.  Mundanes are already in military clans, and military clans are by far the most populated clans in the entire game.

I don't see why everyone (and honestly, I don't think its everyone, I think its the vocal minority that posts on the GDB that tends to dislike magick) is opposed to adding some fucking roles for people who enjoy playing magickers.

There are 3 military clans.  Three.

And catering to mundanes?  Mundanes are literally the game.  You wouldn't get so much pushback if the entire basis of your argument wasn't 'I like magick but don't like how the game world treats magick, so we should change the game world to accomodate how I want to play with magick.'

Quote from: wizturbo on October 20, 2015, 07:42:23 PMMagick is real.  Magick is incredibly useful.  Magick is the whole reason the Highlord Tektolnes rules Allanak with an iron fist, and he permits Gemmed to live in the city... So why would everyone but House Oash hate them?  House Oash (an Upper Tier House) understands magick's value...but the rest of the Houses are too stupid to understand it?!    To me, it just seems like some staffers arbitrary decided that's how the world should be, with no documented reason, and that's why it is what it is today.

Magick does also have a habit of making things go horribly wrong sometimes, too. Admittedly, 'Nak moved the giant, smoking, hulking, lava-spewing reminder of one of the last big times that things went horribly astray... But PCs may have been told by their parents of when everyone was starving, hungry, and it was all the gemmed's fault. True, the nobility would have been less affected, but I'm sure they had to deal with some of the affects. Like, say, Trader's Inn getting burned down. I imagine that the nobility is largely encouraged away from it by the templars, as well, who likely want to keep the power to themselves (and keep nobles from meddling in things).

QuoteNobles are highly educated (by Allanaki standards) and should realize more than the common populace that Gemmed are not nearly the threat to the city that the stupid commoner population might believe.  House Borsail hates magick, and they might have political allies who follow their lead (or pretend to follow their lead to get goodies from Borsail), but I see no reason why ~50% of the noble population couldn't have the Oashi opinion on magick.

I'm sure nobles can and do occasionally hire gemmed on the side, but they likely want to keep it low key. I don't think that's a bad thing. If gemmed are so desirable that the majority or even a good portion of noble houses hire them... Then that's going to significantly change the social structure. The moment gemmed don a House cloak, their status dramatically changes. They're not just some social pyrriah to be feared and hated... They're bearing the emblem of a noble house. They're important.

Commoners don't like feeling magickers are important. They like burning shit down when that happens. Namely, like the riots that assaulted the gemmer temples, as a prime example.

QuoteI think the biggest offender of all is House Tor not having war mages anymore.  Allanak has these wildly powerful and advantageous weapons at their disposal, and House Tor, the most militant house in the city, that's all about tactics and glorious victory...doesn't want to have anything to do with them?!?!   HUH?  That makes no sense whatsoever, unless House Tor is sucking on Borsail's teet and giving up War Mages was the price they had to pay for that.

I haven't been playing long enough to know about a time when Tor did have warmages, so keep that in mind.

But if I was a templar, I sure as hell wouldn't let the most militarily efficient noble house with soldiers also have deadly magick potential. That's ground for a coup.

From the perspective of a Tor, they're trained to dislike and hate magick too. Think about your traditional fantasy setting, and the division between your standard fighter and mage. The fighter wants to rely on himself, things he understands. He doesn't trust in that strange finger-wiggling nonsense. Building on that for our setting, Tor trains good soldiers, making them the best of the best. Magickers are a different catagory entirely; they focus on the arcane, Tor focuses on the martial.

Quote from: Taven on October 20, 2015, 08:09:19 PM
Magick does also have a habit of making things go horribly wrong sometimes, too. Admittedly, 'Nak moved the giant, smoking, hulking, lava-spewing reminder of one of the last big times that things went horribly astray...

That was Magick working as intended.

It sucked from a mundane action point of view, but working as intended. Gerderm magick stealing mundane thunder and turning a wholesome bloodbath into something strange and weird.

Since I needed to edit this anyway, it wasn't even the volcano that screwed things up. Mass disarm spells and fire seeds and other shenanigans had already happened.

A noble who publicly hates magickers but nevertheless uses them on the sly is, of course, entirely in the realm of possibility.

Quote from: Taven on October 20, 2015, 08:09:19 PM
I haven't been playing long enough to know about a time when Tor did have warmages, so keep that in mind.

But if I was a templar, I sure as hell wouldn't let the most militarily efficient noble house with soldiers also have deadly magick potential. That's ground for a coup.

I was around when House Tor had warmages.  They were a rare role, and the Gemmed who got them were tried and tested individuals.

As for your comment about being grounds for a coup, I'll just say for IC reasons that's not true.  

Military wise, House Tor's Scorpions are only a fraction of a single Legion's strength, and Allanak has multiple legions.  Magickally speaking, using the Gemmed against the Templarate in a coup is...well, lets just say not a realistic threat.

Quote from: wizturbo on October 20, 2015, 08:04:41 PM
The entire game is catering to Mundanes already.  Mundanes are already in military clans, and military clans are by far the most populated clans in the entire game.

I don't see why everyone (and honestly, I don't think its everyone, I think its the vocal minority that posts on the GDB that tends to dislike magick) is opposed to adding some fucking roles for people who enjoy playing magickers.

Just for the record, my favorite PC of all time was a magicker. I think playing magickers is awesome. I love magick and learning about magick.

It's just that the gameworld isn't designed to be very magicker friendly, by intent. Allanak's mages are more or less slaves to the templars, who use them to keep power and accomplish their own ends. Oash also wants to keep their noble monopoly on gemmed--They moved through the senate to get rid of the Council of Allanaki Mages. There was a period when a Tor noble was hiring a couple gemmed, contractually and on the side, and even that pissed off some Oashi (which was neat conflict, but my point is that Oash wants to keep their power). Most nobles probably don't know much about magick, or want to know much about it. Commoners hate and fear it, and for good reason. The gameworld's perceptions are intentionally designed to ostracize the mage.

Also, we're fairly off topic. Would any staff or moderator be willing to start a thread called "Magickers and Their Role and Opportunities" starting with this post (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50034.msg908701.html#msg908701) and including relevant ones after? It would be much appreciated. It's a good discussion to have, and it deserves its own thread.

Quote from: wizturbo on October 20, 2015, 08:28:31 PM
Military wise, House Tor's Scorpions are only a fraction of a single Legion's strength, and Allanak has multiple legions.  Magickally speaking, using the Gemmed against the Templarate in a coup is...well, lets just say not a realistic threat.

Not with just House Tor as-is, for... IC reasons, yes, I agree. Gemmed being used against the state directly is limited by the nature of the reason they're allowed to live. That doesn't mean that they couldn't be used in a round-about way, though. Or that it wouldn't increase the threat of leading to non-sanctioned magicks which might be more dangerous.

Anyways, that point is debatable and hypothetical, but suffice to say that templars probably want information on magick to be limited. They already butt heads enough with Oash as it is, they probably don't want a military clan also getting gemmed.

Quote from: Armaddict on October 20, 2015, 08:08:22 PM
And catering to mundanes?  Mundanes are literally the game.  You wouldn't get so much pushback if the entire basis of your argument wasn't 'I like magick but don't like how the game world treats magick, so we should change the game world to accomodate how I want to play with magick.'

You see, I view it exactly the other way.  

When I started playing this game, magick was feared and distrusted, but not nearly as limited in roles as it is today.  Then over time, OOCly people made the argument "I don't like magick, so we should change the game to accommodate how I want to play" and the setting was slowly inched over towards fear and hatred rather than mere distrust.  My argument is there is no basis for magick being hated as much as it is in Allanak, save the "I don't like magick" crowd, be it players or staff, influencing things in that direction.

Not -nearly-?

Back then there was the conclave, which was hard to find and reclusive in their involvement with the rest of the world (and I would not be against this coming back), Tor with it's usually one warmage, which had less to do than oashi mages and....what else are you talking about, exactly?

I was the player of a Tor noble when the warmages were ended, or shortly after.  There was one left.  However, I very specifically remember reading the post that limited it to one because two was causing problems.  So you talking about a time where there was so much more to do, and how it has swung in the opposite direction, is directly referencing the time of the Council of Allanaki Mages, in which case there is a pretty widespread acknowledgement that it got out of hand.  Aside from everyone who wants magick to be the mainstay of the game, in which case it is referenced as a golden era, despite it being only one clan who managed to dominate pretty much every plot that ever rose up.

I came just -barely- after the destruction of first Tuluk by the elementals, so are you referencing pre-antimagick tuluk?

Edited to add:  And to discuss this the second time for the week, the CoAM was not making more roles.  It just signified a sudden mindstate shift as mages became organized that they were tools to be used for every single situation.  I can see how that would be a golden age to mages.  However, it also changed the entire dynamic of the game to one where magick was not fulfilling its place in documentation.  It became 'We have it, so we're going to use it', with no regard for the social ramifications that come from it.  Again, I point to the example of where a thriving clan of Tor soldiers was threatened with being left out of a plot because of the noble's request to not have his soldiers serving as glorified bodyguards for gemmed in a mundane task, i.e. One that could be solved with normal combat, where no magick was 'needed' for the plot.

Quote from: wizturbo on October 20, 2015, 08:39:48 PM

Quote from: Armaddict on October 20, 2015, 08:08:22 PM
And catering to mundanes?  Mundanes are literally the game.  You wouldn't get so much pushback if the entire basis of your argument wasn't 'I like magick but don't like how the game world treats magick, so we should change the game world to accomodate how I want to play with magick.'

You see, I view it exactly the other way.  

When I started playing this game, magick was feared and distrusted, but not nearly as limited in roles as it is today.  Then over time, OOCly people made the argument "I don't like magick, so we should change the game to accommodate how I want to play" and the setting was slowly inched over towards fear and hatred rather than mere distrust.  My argument is there is no basis for magick being hated as much as it is in Allanak, save the "I don't like magick" crowd, be it players or staff, influencing things in that direction.

I'm not sure when you started playing.

When I was a fresh-eyed 100% total n00b was about the time the end of the world plots were happening. Samos was in the south, and it was a time when gemmed were everywhere. Around this time on the GDB was a huge kick-back by players, who decided that there was too much magick, and they wanted to be the change. Players voluntarily committed to having their karma locked away by staff, as a show of support for less love for magickers, and more support for mundanes.

I think since then, there's been a larger sensitivity and favoritism to mages getting too much love in the game. You seem to think it's gone too far the way of mundanes, I'm not sure that it has. I view mages as a sort of 'make your own fun' type role. You know ahead of time you're going to be socially ostracized. You can hide what you are, be an unaffiliated gemmer, or work for Oash. If you're an unaffiliated gemmer, there's nothing stopping you from trying to get nobles of other houses to hire you on the side. True, you won't get to wear Tor's cloak... But with when I started as a player and with my experience, I see that as normal and expected.

Quote from: Taven on October 20, 2015, 08:54:44 PM

Quote from: wizturbo on October 20, 2015, 08:39:48 PM

Quote from: Armaddict on October 20, 2015, 08:08:22 PM
And catering to mundanes?  Mundanes are literally the game.  You wouldn't get so much pushback if the entire basis of your argument wasn't 'I like magick but don't like how the game world treats magick, so we should change the game world to accomodate how I want to play with magick.'

You see, I view it exactly the other way.  

When I started playing this game, magick was feared and distrusted, but not nearly as limited in roles as it is today.  Then over time, OOCly people made the argument "I don't like magick, so we should change the game to accommodate how I want to play" and the setting was slowly inched over towards fear and hatred rather than mere distrust.  My argument is there is no basis for magick being hated as much as it is in Allanak, save the "I don't like magick" crowd, be it players or staff, influencing things in that direction.

I'm not sure when you started playing.

When I was a fresh-eyed 100% total n00b was about the time the end of the world plots were happening. Samos was in the south, and it was a time when gemmed were everywhere. Around this time on the GDB was a huge kick-back by players, who decided that there was too much magick, and they wanted to be the change. Players voluntarily committed to having their karma locked away by staff, as a show of support for less love for magickers, and more support for mundanes.

I think since then, there's been a larger sensitivity and favoritism to mages getting too much love in the game. You seem to think it's gone too far the way of mundanes, I'm not sure that it has. I view mages as a sort of 'make your own fun' type role. You know ahead of time you're going to be socially ostracized. You can hide what you are, be an unaffiliated gemmer, or work for Oash. If you're an unaffiliated gemmer, there's nothing stopping you from trying to get nobles of other houses to hire you on the side. True, you won't get to wear Tor's cloak... But with when I started as a player and with my experience, I see that as normal and expected.

I agree with this (bolded part as usuall especially) ,very much this, but to me, part of the fun of playing said mages isn't just the magick, or anything like that. I'm a explorer of lore by nature and hope to learn more about the lore of the world. Be  it mundane things or magick ,but if im ever playing a mage - rouge or otherwise, Im hoping to do what I can to not only bring the magick side to life and potray it well ,but i want to LEARN that lore. I do not know how hard it is to get into such kind of lore and explore those kind of things - i'm just barely past my first year of playing, and my first character saw all kinds of -cool- things. (tuluk staff, you were awesome for putting up with my nubbish ways).

what gets me engrossed in these worlds and the RP isn't just the character, but the lore and the stories of the past. The -journey- of going through that and learning those things, even in character? thats the greatest thing to ever experience in a story - to get so engrossed in something's lore that no matter how story for a single character ends. It wasn't the ending that was the reward. its what built up to it. The inbetween. The small ripples my character have spread into other characters - or the ripples that other characters spread into mine. :P

mages, gemmed or otherwise have all sorts of possible opportunists if they're capable of making their own fun. But what if they want to make fun for themselves and others? Magick is mysterious and always will be - if I ever play a magicker, I want to include mundanes where I realistcally can. I want to potray the lore as I learn it. I want to make sure those characters that interact with mine.  Mundane, or otherwise, are influnced by it.

Those are make the best stories imo. It doesn't need to be a grand adventure of saving the world. But a small group (or large group!) of people forging their own little role and  postion in a much grander world.

When you can get deeply involved in the lore, and then potray it in your RP... It adds another edge, another dynamic to it.

Lore is central to any RP. Lore is awesome to discover - and my biggest thing i've found difficult on armageddon, is sometimes .. Discovering that lore.

I know in the IC sense. The massess are kept ignorant for various reasons. But . .that doesn't change how I feel about it.

I don't want to see huge elemental plots, or magick plots. But .. I want to see the chances of characters who think "I became a Krathi .. Why me? I didn't want this. I want to find out why me. I want this curse gone.." be able to delve into that, and reach into learning the purpose of their element, or more deeper meanings to magick, if at all possible.  It adds an.. esoteric sense and level of depth to a character that could vary from character to character, but add just another level of depth to each character as they interact. (Even if its kind of a generic plot point, im sure tons have done it, but cliches can be amazing if executed right)

As a whole. I cant' really say i have much experience with magick - I don't think much needs to be changed for rogue mages. Gemmed mages, as stated before, I think the hate and fear part has gone to such extremes that .. its effecting the game, and peoples out of character take on it. I personally feel gemmed should have a bit more opportunity then they do have.

TLDR: I'm just saying that a mage, gemmer or otherwise doesnt need to be just focused on their outright power and such, but touch upon that power in a way that draws an interest for the characters and adds a sense of mystery to the game, especially if said pcs are enable to have their own little mysterious things about them that they discover. i feel a lot of people look at mages and think: "mage powerhouse, they can do this this and this." instead of. "A typical person (usually) in some sort alkward circumstance that they have to live with and adapt to, with little nuances and mystery behind them."

Just focus on that mystery and depth, rather then what they can do on a coded level. Thats what fantasy is about, imo. Even low fantasy.

One thing that may be getting lost in all of this is that some of the magick roles that went away were sanctioned magickers embedded in non-magick clans, similar to the Tor war mages.  It wasn't all magick-based supergroups.  I can only think of two clans, pre-2010, that didn't have a MAJOR non-mundane role/character in it at one point or another.  And I'm not talking about a rogue here or there, I'm talking about mages who were openly acknowledged by clan leadership, even if their existence was a secret outside the clan.

That's integral to Zalanthas:  If you don't have magick or psionics at your disposal, someone else is going to come and take everything you hold dear because you can't stop them.

Editing to say:  I think a big shift in this, more than anything, came as leadership of clans was taken away from players.

Quote from: Old Kank on October 20, 2015, 11:41:34 PM
One thing that may be getting lost in all of this is that some of the magick roles that went away were sanctioned magickers embedded in non-magick clans, similar to the Tor war mages.  It wasn't all magick-based supergroups.  I can only think of two clans, pre-2010, that didn't have a MAJOR non-mundane role/character in it at one point or another.  And I'm not talking about a rogue here or there, I'm talking about mages who were openly acknowledged by clan leadership, even if their existence was a secret outside the clan.

That's integral to Zalanthas:  If you don't have magick or psionics at your disposal, someone else is going to come and take everything you hold dear because you can't stop them.

Editing to say:  I think a big shift in this, more than anything, came as leadership of clans was taken away from players.

I'm curious how you saw the inclusion of magickers in-house, back in the day. Did you felt it led to overuse of magick? Or a lack of discrimination towards mages? Or did it seem fairly balanced, in your opinion?

I think it would be perfectly reasonable for many clans to have one or two mages, tried and proven, on retainer.  The utility of something like a vivaduan is hard to deny, and it makes sense that their abilities would not be feared to the same extent as those of, say, a drovian.  And in terms of game balance, half-giants and dwarves are objectively better than their mundane human counterparts in combat, but no one seems to have this militant anti non-human attitude, even if that's also part of the gameworld's lore and prejudices.

Quote from: Erythil on October 21, 2015, 12:32:35 AM
And in terms of game balance, half-giants and dwarves are objectively better than their mundane human counterparts in combat, but no one seems to have this militant anti non-human attitude, even if that's also part of the gameworld's lore and prejudices.

Trust me, they're on the list.

Quote from: Taven on October 21, 2015, 12:06:37 AM
I'm curious how you saw the inclusion of magickers in-house, back in the day. Did you felt it led to overuse of magick? Or a lack of discrimination towards mages? Or did it seem fairly balanced, in your opinion?

How do I feel about it?  Ehhhhh!

I think it was problematic in terms of balancing clans, and I assume that's why staff nudged things away from that.  If all clans are more or less competing with one another, then the clan that has the best/most mages is going to win.  Clans that mix mages and mundanes are especially brutal.  Armaddict is right on the money when he talks about mundanes becoming bodyguards for mages, and that's a bad situation for a bulk of the game.  But the downside to minimizing mages, in my limited view, is that the game has become very narrow.  And I think that's a bad situation for the whole game.

As far as discrimination, I don't know what to say.  I think people should focus more on their own characters' likes and dislikes, and less on what other people are doing.  Read the docs, and then build the character that you want to play, and let the staff reinforce the environment.  It was frustrating to play a "preserver-hater" back before karma went in, but some people still did it.  It's easier, and frequently more rewarding to be inclusive, and I think that's a huge problem for those that want to discriminate, but that's just human nature.  It's not something we can fix.

Quote from: Erythil on October 21, 2015, 12:32:35 AM
And in terms of game balance, half-giants and dwarves are objectively better than their mundane human counterparts in combat, but no one seems to have this militant anti non-human attitude, even if that's also part of the gameworld's lore and prejudices.

I hate, hate, hate half-giants.  It's all farts and big dick jokes, and everybody seems to love it.  Get off my damn lawn!

Quote from: Old Kank on October 21, 2015, 01:03:41 AM

Quote from: Taven on October 21, 2015, 12:06:37 AM
I'm curious how you saw the inclusion of magickers in-house, back in the day. Did you felt it led to overuse of magick? Or a lack of discrimination towards mages? Or did it seem fairly balanced, in your opinion?

How do I feel about it?  Ehhhhh!

I think it was problematic in terms of balancing clans, and I assume that's why staff nudged things away from that.  If all clans are more or less competing with one another, then the clan that has the best/most mages is going to win.  Clans that mix mages and mundanes are especially brutal.  Armaddict is right on the money when he talks about mundanes becoming bodyguards for mages, and that's a bad situation for a bulk of the game.  But the downside to minimizing mages, in my limited view, is that the game has become very narrow.  And I think that's a bad situation for the whole game.

As far as discrimination, I don't know what to say.  I think people should focus more on their own characters' likes and dislikes, and less on what other people are doing.  Read the docs, and then build the character that you want to play, and let the staff reinforce the environment.  It was frustrating to play a "preserver-hater" back before karma went in, but some people still did it.  It's easier, and frequently more rewarding to be inclusive, and I think that's a huge problem for those that want to discriminate, but that's just human nature.  It's not something we can fix.

I think it's this perception that created the pull away from mages in clans. It was like everyone (the players) were thinking "oh if I have 6 mages I can beat Tor." instead of "if I have 1 krathi and 1 drovian during peak time and maybe one drovian off-peak, I could help the city win the war against Tuluk."

I notice often, players think in terms of "can I beat this guy" or "can my clan beat that clan" or "can my unit beat the other noble's unit." But you don't see too much of "can I help these other tribes defend and win against the enemy from the other side of the known who are threatening our existence?"

Sadly, there's only virtual enemies to fight against now, and so we're stuck with our characters fighting amongst themselves instead of the greater good. But "back in the day" the greater good was ALWAYS in peril, and I think that's why mages became such a huge asset.

Without a world-wide threat, the magick aspect reverts to "me vs. him" and is no longer "us vs. them." You don't need magicks for that. You just need a well-trained assassin.

I think that magickers are already viewed in a way which was never intended. From my experience over the last couple of years players are far more accepting of them and even treat them as equals. Magickers are to be feared and hated, not to rub elbows with because they can make a neat fireball or <whatever>. While the nobles of the city are more educated I believe that most still believe what has always been known to be true: magickers bring disaster, both personal and world-wide. The Almighty Highlord is the only one that can contain them.

These are not your local Wiccans, Shamans, Druids, X-Men, or Harry Potter-like Wizards. Every time they use magick (or maybe even take a breath), something bad probably happens. A puppy somewhere is kicked. A baby is miscarried. Some noble falls down the stairs. Your mother stubs her toe. A Silt-Horror is born. A half-elf is made. ...you get the idea.

Oash is unique in their perspective of magick for some very old IC reasons which, considering all things, makes perfect sense. Some other noble houses might dabble on occasion but, as far as I know, never in a large capacity (if at all). Just because someone is educated doesn't mean that they are correct, people have taught ridiculous ideas to scholars many times over. Besides, who says that magickers don't really cause all the bad in the world?

Magick is a mysterious and very rare power on Zalanthas, about which the general public knows very little, and generally fears and hates a great deal. While magickers are tolerated in some places, they are generally feared and distrusted by the vast majority of the population of Zalanthas. In many places, magickers are killed upon discovery, and even the rumor that one is a magicker can lead to one's death.

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Elementalist%20Culture

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Superstitions

I am all for following the docs and making my characters realistic products of their background, but remember that if exceptions to the rule did not exist, no Zalanthan would ever pursue sorcery.

I think it's great that people are dedicated to maintaining the culture and enforcing the docs with their own PCs, but there are realistic so-called "exceptions" that I would not qualify as speshul snowflakism. Yes, if somebody's being all friendly with magickers in public and acting like there's nothing wrong with it and they act all surprised when anyone gives them shit for it, that's pretty borderline, but I don't think that hiring a couple of them under the table falls into the same category. Some people are power-hungry enough to tolerate anything or anybody to achieve their ends. Not every PC should be willing to use the gemmed to take on a task, by a longshot, but if your PC is a hardline "victory at all costs" sort I don't see a problem with them using shady, forbidden methods like employing the gemmed...or maybe even worse.

Some people don't care about the destruction of the world or the danger of magick. They just want to get ahead.

Eh, I've had gemmed get on the payroll with nearly every noble house in the game. Of course I was never codedly clanned except in one instance, but I was doing work, violent work, shady underhanded work, making jobs easier, or possible for their crews. I think allowing mages in clans openly would take some social restructuring and a documentation overhaul. Personally I think if you feel like gemmed don't have enough roles or opportunities you just aren't creative or driven enough.

Also, some people think the world is too carebear towards gemmed now? How do you expect they'll be treated once they're in a Salarri cloak, A Tor cloak. Clans have some pretty serious perks.

Quote from: Beethoven on October 21, 2015, 10:43:43 AMSome people don't care about the destruction of the world or the danger of magick. They just want to get ahead.

The problem is when everyone plays like that, "plays to win". You can't win. You just don't "win" a game like Armageddon. You tell a story, and then you die (or store).

Having victories as part of the story is great and nobody likes to be depressed and beaten down all the time in the game, but it's so refreshing when someone is obviously playing to tell a story rather than to try and "win" the weird socio-political game of Armageddon character power level. What do you win, anyway? Like, really, what do you win?

Quote from: Delirium on October 21, 2015, 11:10:40 AM
The problem is when everyone plays like that, "plays to win". You can't win. You just don't "win" a game like Armageddon. You tell a story, and then you die (or store).

I agree. But playing a character like that doesn't mean you're playing to win. You're playing someone who plays to win. They might not even do a good job of it, but dammit, they'll try.

When you're playing with (ahem, against) other players who play to win, sadly, in order to just live long enough to tell a decent story, your character may have to make some sacrifices along the way (not necessarily involving magickers). They can either learn this, or die. Or maybe it's just my personal experience. But this is the nature of the beast, in order to even stay about you find yourself in conflict, and therefor, competition with players who "play to win", and must adopt some skeezy tactics to stay ahead of their attempts to remove you.

The whole wanting to get ahead at any cost (which I meant in an IC sense, not an OOC sense) was just one example of why someone might hire/deal with a magicker, because it's probably a similar reason to why many sorcerers would have pursued their craft. There are other reasons as well that are still Zalanthan and not speshul snowflake.

Quote from: Fujikoma on October 21, 2015, 11:20:21 AM
When you're playing with (ahem, against) other players who play to win, sadly, in order to just live long enough to tell a decent story, your character may have to make some sacrifices along the way (not necessarily involving magickers). They can either learn this, or die. Or maybe it's just my personal experience. But this is the nature of the beast, in order to even stay about you find yourself in conflict, and therefor, competition with players who "play to win", and must adopt some skeezy tactics to stay ahead of their attempts to remove you.

You don't have to. You can stay true to your role and the world around you and fuck 'em if they play to win.

Quote from: Fujikoma on October 21, 2015, 11:20:21 AM
in order to even stay about you find yourself in conflict, and therefor, competition with players who "play to win", and must adopt some skeezy tactics to stay ahead of their attempts to remove you.

Word.

Say hi to your mother for me, ok.

Quote from: Delirium on October 21, 2015, 11:34:41 AM

Quote from: Fujikoma on October 21, 2015, 11:20:21 AM
When you're playing with (ahem, against) other players who play to win, sadly, in order to just live long enough to tell a decent story, your character may have to make some sacrifices along the way (not necessarily involving magickers). They can either learn this, or die. Or maybe it's just my personal experience. But this is the nature of the beast, in order to even stay about you find yourself in conflict, and therefor, competition with players who "play to win", and must adopt some skeezy tactics to stay ahead of their attempts to remove you.

You don't have to. You can stay true to your role and the world around you and fuck 'em if they play to win.

Done this many times, never fails though, it's always something. There are many quick paths to unreasonable power that don't involve magick, much quicker, actually, than "befriending" paranoid magickers (or sleazy cut-throats) who have zero reason to trust you and every reason to be suspicious of you. Can only go through it so many times before you're like, damnit, I was enjoying that plotline, and the others, before Doofus McFeckballs stepped in and wrecked my shit AGAIN. This is getting rediculous, it's looking like they're TRYING to find reasons to do this. Ok, welp, next time I get a plot I like, I'm playing a character of flexible morals who will grab on to the rope as tight as they can and not let go.

This said, there are powerful characters whose players are willing to be tricked, fooled, bribed, look the other way because it's beneath them, or otherwise just ignore the situation because they have better things to be doing, while remaining IC, and to those players, kudos, you really make it seem like the gameworld is alive with living, breathing characters, and not a bunch of thin masks over a grief-machine. If this were all there were, it would be much easier to stick to the guidelines every, single, time, and you know why? Because you know you can interact with them and stand a chance at making it out alive if you play your cards right.

So yes, I will play a rediculously unprincipled scumbag from time to time, because people need to be reminded that simply because you've mastered some combat skill and got social influence, doesn't mean you have to use it at 11 at every available opportunity in order to play properly, and it may, indeed, be your undoing.

Quote
There are many quick paths to unreasonable power that don't involve magick.

If it doesn't involve magick, then maybe we could move it to its own thread: "Playing to Win: Hot or Not."

I, for one, think wizturbo's thread is worthwhile, although I'm not sure enough about what my own views on it are to articulate something right now.

Quote from: nauta on October 21, 2015, 11:59:11 AM

Quote
There are many quick paths to unreasonable power that don't involve magick.

If it doesn't involve magick, then maybe we could move it to its own thread: "Playing to Win: Hot or Not."

I, for one, think wizturbo's thread is worthwhile, although I'm not sure enough about what my own views on it are to articulate something right now.

I like the idea of a thread split, but the point is it COULD involve magick, as that could be part of the means to an end. Or perhaps the person "playing to win" has chosen one of these other paths, and the only way to actually hold your own and continue to interact with other players in any meaningful way would require the help of a mage. As Bushranger pointed out somewhere, there's been animations of NPCs trying to have their children healed by vivaduans, which seems to reinforce that, while rare, it does happen within the gameworld. Then again, there's all the people outside the entrance of that one location, vNPC echos, either dead or dying of thirst, begging for water, while a short distance down the road is a vivaduan pool they won't touch.

My only real issue with play to win behaviors, as long as they do not ruin solid plots on purpose, are when mundanes seem to mysteriously known what eles, sorcs and psis can do and use such knowledge for their pc's benefit regardless of what their pc would know.

I think the whole "Playing to Win" is a fantastic reason for people to interact with magickers ICly.  "Winning' is a role that magickers are able to help others fill, and those who ICly want to win immediately have an incentive to meddle with them.

People like to say how magickers spoil the fun for mundanes, but the most powerful combinations are mundanes who work in league with magickers.  You think a 30 day warrior is scary?  Well, a 30 day warrior with a magicker buddy is terrifying.  If your character doesn't have the power to tackle dangerous situations, making a magicker friend can very quickly tilt things towards your advantage with five simple words...  That's tempting, for anyone who wants to "win".  

I see so many people practice their sparring religiously... wanting to be the best of the best.  I wonder why more of them don't look for short cuts.  There's absolutely nothing wrong roleplay wise with seeking out these short cuts, as long as you properly understand that you're meddling with dark forces, and it's unlikely anyone is going to like you for it.  Staff aren't going to swoop down and strip you of your karma and call you a bad player for dealing with a magicker...  as long as you roleplay it properly.  It's also important you consider your background, a Tuluki, a Borsail, or some other specific background that would be even more hardened against utilizing magick is not going to be so keen to deal with a mage.  But if you're born in Allanak, you're bound to know about "that guy" who visited a magicker and had their problems solved...  You hate that guy, unless you ARE that guy.

Quote from: wizturbo on October 21, 2015, 01:14:28 PM
Staff aren't going to swoop down and strip you of your karma and call you a bad player (unless you're a Tuluki, or a Borsail, or some other background that would be even more hardened against utilizing magick).

Actually, they will, and they probably should, or at least they should look into it.  The average Allanaki citizen fears and distrusts magick at a very, very, very, very low level.   It's really hard for us to get into that mindset in our liberal day and age (even the 'gay' analogy that Jave used earlier doesn't quite come close): the average citizen really does believe all that (codedly) bogus hubbabaloo about magickers, the curses, the superstitions, and so on.  You wouldn't just be acting against society, you'd be acting against a part of yourself.  (Mutatis mutandis for the whole elf-human sex stuff.)  The people going to the Vivaduan temple are ashamed and terrified -- not because of what others think, but because of what they themselves think.

Unless there is some compelling reason for you to buck this trend, then you are, in essence, metagaming, using the gemmed for coded advantage.

Any warrior who resorts to magick for an upperhand is no true warrior. You're just a chump.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 21, 2015, 01:25:53 PM
Any warrior who resorts to magick for an upperhand is no true warrior. You're just a chump.

That is TOTALLY the mindset most people would have...but if you're the chump whose foot is resting on the corpse of your "warrior" enemy, because you paid off a Vivadu to give you strange and powerful magicks to help you win your fight...  You might think the other guy is the chump.  No one will think you're a bad ass, they'll hate you for it if they ever found out...but you aren't exactly going to advertise.

Yes, also, keep in mind, while toying with "dark forces", that you could easily get burned, to a crisp. There's many reasons your magicker buddy may suddenly turn on you, it's certainly not a choice to be made lightly, and not something to seek publicly. There will be, for some time, a degree of intense distrust between the parties involved, that may boil over at any moment. Then, if they're gemmed, and the Templarate discovers, you better be ready for a heaping helping of scrutiny. I played a Tuluki who had some arrangements with the gemmed (we'd even creep up on them in a certain room in the quarter to pitch deals on occasion), I guess when the Templarate PCs of the time figured out what was going on and exactly why and how, they decided it was alright.

I do know I didn't get any negative account notes I can see from it.

EDIT: I suppose gemmed meeting a wanted dead or alive, vengeful, beastly Tuluki necker warrior, known to fly into mul-like rages on rare occassion, to chat or discuss business on Hathor's has "TROUBLE" written all over it in all caps, but, it made a good story.

This discussion of deciding how ALL warriors should behave is silly.


Anyway, I say the staff should experiment.  Let some clans hire a mage or two as a one-off deal.  See how it goes.  (Or simply do it to mix things up for the sake of mixing things up.)

Quote from: Delirium on October 21, 2015, 11:10:40 AM

Quote from: Beethoven on October 21, 2015, 10:43:43 AMSome people don't care about the destruction of the world or the danger of magick. They just want to get ahead.

The problem is when everyone plays like that, "plays to win". You can't win. You just don't "win" a game like Armageddon. You tell a story, and then you die (or store).

Having victories as part of the story is great and nobody likes to be depressed and beaten down all the time in the game, but it's so refreshing when someone is obviously playing to tell a story rather than to try and "win" the weird socio-political game of Armageddon character power level. What do you win, anyway? Like, really, what do you win?

playing to win/winnaring kills RP. Kind of my stance on it.

to me 'winning' a game like armageddon would be leaving a lasting impression upon the characters my character met and their future before my own characters End.

That'd be winning. :p

Quote from: nauta on October 21, 2015, 01:23:48 PM
The average Allanaki citizen fears and distrusts magick at a very, very, very, very low level.   It's really hard for us to get into that mindset in our liberal day and age (even the 'gay' analogy that Jave used earlier doesn't quite come close): the average citizen really does believe all that (codedly) bogus hubbabaloo about magickers, the curses, the superstitions, and so on.  You wouldn't just be acting against society, you'd be acting against a part of yourself.  (Mutatis mutandis for the whole elf-human sex stuff.)  The people going to the Vivaduan temple are ashamed and terrified -- not because of what others think, but because of what they themselves think.

Unless there is some compelling reason for you to buck this trend, then you are, in essence, metagaming, using the gemmed for coded advantage.

I think there's too much of the Tuluki culture injected in that sentiment.  The average Allanaki fears and distrust magick.  Period.  There is no "very, very, very, very low level"  to it.  You just added that, because it helps you make an argument that is invalid.

Don't get me wrong, if a mundane deals with a magicker, it's a dark and dirty secret.  The type of magicker they deal with probably plays into it.  A water mage might be bad.  A Drovian?  That's REALLY bad.  They should be fearful, apprehensive...  whether or not they feel shame depends on their personality, some people don't feel ashamed of anything they do.  Magick isn't something mundanes should ever be comfortable with, but they shouldn't be comfortable with dealing with elves either.  Or going to Red Storm, where they let muls walk around loose.  Muls!  Free?!  Are you kidding me?!   Not to mention they have spice there.  Spice is illegal in Allanak...  commoners should be ashamed and fearful of using it...but many do.  It provides something they want.  People do all kinds of things they aren't proud of to get what they want.

Quote from: wizturbo on October 21, 2015, 01:27:36 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 21, 2015, 01:25:53 PM
Any warrior who resorts to magick for an upperhand is no true warrior. You're just a chump.

That is TOTALLY the mindset most people would have...but if you're the chump whose foot is resting on the corpse of your "warrior" enemy, because you paid off a Vivadu to give you strange and powerful magicks to help you win your fight...  You might think the other guy is the chump.  No one will think you're a bad ass, they'll hate you for it if they ever found out...but you aren't exactly going to advertise.

Let's view the question of "should I use magick to win?" through a real life lens.

Europe could solve it's current migrant crises by sinking the ships, gassing the camps, and killing the migrants at the source. But they won't, because that's crossing a moral line and using horrifying means. Even relatively harsh measures being instituted by some countries like Hungary are troubling, because Europe's afraid harshness and xenophobia will escalate into violence as it historically has.

Magick in Zalanthas is the same way. Effective, but morally repugnant and risking a slippery slope to disaster. Zalanthas might not be the most moral people, but the distrust and disgust of magick is a codified part of the setting. Pragmatism is the exception and almost always leads to unforeseen consequences.

You can play that character if you want. But frankly, the chump who resorts to magick for ultimate power is less interesting a character to watch than one who's not taking the easy road.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 21, 2015, 01:40:10 PM

Quote from: wizturbo on October 21, 2015, 01:27:36 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 21, 2015, 01:25:53 PM
Any warrior who resorts to magick for an upperhand is no true warrior. You're just a chump.

That is TOTALLY the mindset most people would have...but if you're the chump whose foot is resting on the corpse of your "warrior" enemy, because you paid off a Vivadu to give you strange and powerful magicks to help you win your fight...  You might think the other guy is the chump.  No one will think you're a bad ass, they'll hate you for it if they ever found out...but you aren't exactly going to advertise.

Let's view the question of "should I use magick to win?" through a real life lens.

Europe could solve it's current migrant crises by sinking the ships, gassing the camps, and killing the migrants at the source. But they won't, because that's crossing a moral line and using horrifying means. Even relatively harsh measures being instituted by some countries like Hungary are troubling, because Europe's afraid harshness and xenophobia will escalate into violence as it historically has.

Magick in Zalanthas is the same way. Effective, but morally repugnant and risking a slippery slope to disaster. Zalanthas might not be the most moral people, but the distrust and disgust of magick is a codified part of the setting. Pragmatism is the exception and almost always leads to unforeseen consequences.

You can play that character if you want. But frankly, the chump who resorts to magick for ultimate power is less interesting a character to watch than one who's not taking the easy road.

For some, morality and dick-measuring contests simply lack such import.

Quote from: nauta on October 21, 2015, 01:23:48 PM

Quote from: wizturbo on October 21, 2015, 01:14:28 PM
Staff aren't going to swoop down and strip you of your karma and call you a bad player (unless you're a Tuluki, or a Borsail, or some other background that would be even more hardened against utilizing magick).

Actually, they will, and they probably should, or at least they should look into it.  The average Allanaki citizen fears and distrusts magick at a very, very, very, very low level.   It's really hard for us to get into that mindset in our liberal day and age (even the 'gay' analogy that Jave used earlier doesn't quite come close): the average citizen really does believe all that (codedly) bogus hubbabaloo about magickers, the curses, the superstitions, and so on.  You wouldn't just be acting against society, you'd be acting against a part of yourself.  (Mutatis mutandis for the whole elf-human sex stuff.)  The people going to the Vivaduan temple are ashamed and terrified -- not because of what others think, but because of what they themselves think.

Unless there is some compelling reason for you to buck this trend, then you are, in essence, metagaming, using the gemmed for coded advantage.

I'm sure as long as a player keeps the staff informed with bio entries and character reports about why a character is doing such things its generally OK, if they think the reasoning is paltry, they'd let you know, and I highly doubt they'd just punish the player right there. They'd work with the player to come with an understanding. In many of my staff interactions they not only spoke about various things and how they work, they gave me suggestions that helped a lot.

I dont' see why they should dock karma, ect, or will unless its an obvious break of the documentation without real reasoning. Theres a massive importance of communication between staff and a player when doing these things because two people do not always share the same perspective. So its important for them to understand each other as much as possible.

An important thing there is communication. A staffer might not be watching your thinks ,feels, emotes and such at all times.

This si why I personally put in reports. Monthly, usually. but sometimes sooner if something big happened. Even if im not in a leader role. Keeping the staff informed is important.

I find myself saying this a lot, but I agree with wizturbo.

The docs also say that Allanaki commoners feel the nobility are above them, inherently better, and deserve to rule over them, but there have been a lot of great plots concerning commoners trying to assassinate, overthrow, or ruin nobles, or even templars.

People are supposed to be mortified by the idea of humans and elves getting it on, but shamefully, breeds exist.

Citizens are born and bred to distrust northerners and despise the enemy city state, but traitors exist.

People are supposed to hate and fear magick, but magickers often learn to embrace their power, whether in order to survive, in order to serve, because they're addicted, or a myriad other reasons.

As I've said before, sorcerers would never rise out of the city-states if people's lust for power never overcame their fear and disgust with magick.

Mundanes who serve Oash learn to work alongside and with the gemmed, even though they may never become truly comfortable. Maybe some of them even do.

The Vivaduan temple is full of desperate and shame-filled people, resorting to magick for healing because they feel they've run out of other options.

So, given all of this, I don't see why it would be so verboten for a mundane to work with the gemmed, if it fits their background, because they're willing to do anything it takes to win, or some other well-thought-out reason. And when I say there are PCs who will do anything to win, I am NOT talking about players who game the system to win. People seem to have a hard time separating the two, but I am talking about CHARACTERS who are ambitious cutthroats. And as BadSkeelz says, not every character should be willing to take the magickal easy road--in fact, most probably shouldn't. But it's a viable role, IMO, so long as you play it carefully and according to the docs.

EDIT: Forgot to say that the docs specifically state that slaves live better than most commoners and slaves generally would not even think of running away from the comfort of their servile lives, but 'escaped slave' is still a viable role.

Quote from: Rokal on October 21, 2015, 01:37:06 PM
playing to win/winnaring kills RP. Kind of my stance on it.

For some characters, playing to win is the RP.  There are cutthroat, ambitious people out there who will murder their own cousins to get ahead.  I'm not condoning playing characters they are just trying to seek coded advantages to win in PvP.  I'm talking about characters with goals and ambitions...and they're willing to do horrible things to achieve them.  The aide that wants to become a senior Advisor someday, to be as close to a noble as their low birth could ever afford them...if only they had an advantage.  Or, on the flip side, there are normal people who will do anything to survive.  The thief who stole from the wrong guy, and knows he couldn't possibly win in a fair fight, might turn to a magicker to curse his opponent.

These are very human emotions, and can create very interesting RP scenes that have nothing to do with OOCly wanting to pwn someone.  

Quote from: wizturbo on October 21, 2015, 01:59:03 PM

Quote from: Rokal on October 21, 2015, 01:37:06 PM
playing to win/winnaring kills RP. Kind of my stance on it.

For some characters, playing to win is the RP.  There are cutthroat, ambitious people out there who will murder their own cousins to get ahead.  I'm not condoning playing characters they are just trying to seek coded advantages to win in PvP.  I'm talking about characters with goals and ambitions...and they're willing to do horrible things to achieve them.  The aide that wants to become a senior Advisor someday, to be as close to a noble as their low birth could ever afford them...if only they had an advantage.  Or, on the flip side, there are normal people who will do anything to survive.  The thief who stole from the wrong guy, and knows he couldn't possibly win in a fair fight, might turn to a magicker to curse his opponent.

These are very human emotions, and can create very interesting RP scenes that have nothing to do with OOCly wanting to pwn someone.  

Dammit, I agree with you again. This is what I've been talking about, and people seem to be mixing it up with 'playing to win,' or at least using it as a springboard to talk about that. I'm not talking about playing to win, in that metagamey sense--I'm talking about playing someone who is playing to win. And a lot of Zalanthans are playing to win, even if most of them would not resort to magick except under the most dire circumstances.

Quote from: wizturbo on October 21, 2015, 01:59:03 PM

Quote from: Rokal on October 21, 2015, 01:37:06 PM
playing to win/winnaring kills RP. Kind of my stance on it.

For some characters, playing to win is the RP.  There are cutthroat, ambitious people out there who will murder their own cousins to get ahead.  I'm not condoning playing characters they are just trying to seek coded advantages to win in PvP.  I'm talking about characters with goals and ambitions...and they're willing to do horrible things to achieve them.  The aide that wants to become a senior Advisor someday, to be as close to a noble as their low birth could ever afford them...if only they had an advantage.  Or, on the flip side, there are normal people who will do anything to survive.  The thief who stole from the wrong guy, and knows he couldn't possibly win in a fair fight, might turn to a magicker to curse his opponent.

These are very human emotions, and can create very interesting RP scenes that have nothing to do with OOCly wanting to pwn someone.  

That I agree with. Great RP. What I meant was "play to win" by using whatever coded advantages you can find for cheesy, barely justified reasons.

There's a fine line between doing it right and copping out to get ahead on the coded hamster wheel.

People say they want more conflict, but many also imply that you have to play a cookie-cutter cultural enforcer who epitomizes their upbringing in every way. (This is something of an exaggeration and I hope no one thinks I'm putting words in their mouths, but hopefully you get my point.) You'll get some conflict that way because the docs encourage you to be racist and xenophobic, but there's a lot of conflict that's missed out on if you're not allowed to play someone who defies the norms. I'm not talking about metagaming, I'm not talking about speshul snowflakes--I'm talking about someone who does shifty, seedy, and unacceptable things beneath the surface.

If someone's playing the shady merchant who secretly uses magickers to get supplies from around the world on the cheap, someone else could find them out and expose them, or blackmail them. That's conflict. Same with the character who has a secret elf fetish. That's something to be dealt with ICly, not forbidden OOCly, unless it's got a really shitty justification or is being treated unrealistically. I understand that it gets difficult when everyone starts "playing the exception" (or something that is perceived that way) at once, but as long as there are players who are dedicated to enforcing the culture, which there seem to be, it can remain an IC matter as long as it's handled well and not cheesily, as Delirium points out.

Yeah, I definitely agree there Delirium.  Not advocating that.

I encountered a character a year ago now that played this magickal ambition right.  They wanted to be a famed assassin.  A righteous blade of the Highlord.  They had a target, and they realized the job would be a suicide mission without magick to get them out of the situation safely.  But if they managed to pull off the job, they'd have made their career.  They weren't happy about it.  They used threats, they had friends who threatened the mage if he tried any funny business, ectera.  It was a cool plot.

Since it's been a year now, I can say things ended quite badly for the would-be famed assassin...but they very clearly were not trying to win in an OOC sense.  Pretty sure they knew it was going to end badly, and proceeded anyway, because their "trying to win" was in character.  That's good roleplay.

Quote from: Old Kank on October 21, 2015, 01:05:58 AM

Quote from: Erythil on October 21, 2015, 12:32:35 AM
And in terms of game balance, half-giants and dwarves are objectively better than their mundane human counterparts in combat, but no one seems to have this militant anti non-human attitude, even if that's also part of the gameworld's lore and prejudices.

I hate, hate, hate half-giants.  It's all farts and big dick jokes, and everybody seems to love it.  Get off my damn lawn!

People have a very difficult time trying to act 'stupid'.

Quote from: wizturbo on October 21, 2015, 01:14:28 PM
I think the whole "Playing to Win" is a fantastic reason for people to interact with magickers ICly.  "Winning' is a role that magickers are able to help others fill, and those who ICly want to win immediately have an incentive to meddle with them.

People like to say how magickers spoil the fun for mundanes, but the most powerful combinations are mundanes who work in league with magickers.  You think a 30 day warrior is scary?  Well, a 30 day warrior with a magicker buddy is terrifying.  If your character doesn't have the power to tackle dangerous situations, making a magicker friend can very quickly tilt things towards your advantage with five simple words...  That's tempting, for anyone who wants to "win".  

I see so many people practice their sparring religiously... wanting to be the best of the best.  I wonder why more of them don't look for short cuts.  There's absolutely nothing wrong roleplay wise with seeking out these short cuts, as long as you properly understand that you're meddling with dark forces, and it's unlikely anyone is going to like you for it.  Staff aren't going to swoop down and strip you of your karma and call you a bad player for dealing with a magicker...  as long as you roleplay it properly.  It's also important you consider your background, a Tuluki, a Borsail, or some other specific background that would be even more hardened against utilizing magick is not going to be so keen to deal with a mage.  But if you're born in Allanak, you're bound to know about "that guy" who visited a magicker and had their problems solved...  You hate that guy, unless you ARE that guy.

I think there's a distinction between a PLAYER playing to win and a player playing a CHARACTER whose goals are to "win". It's a very, very important distinction. If a player's OOC goal is to get ahead by any means, and they're just continually making characters to support their OOC goal of being the most badass... That's when we see cultural documentation getting ignored. That's when magickers become everybody's public friend, because nobody cares what the docs say.

On the other hand, having a character with the IC goal of getting ahead, regardless of means, is a completely different thing. If they're fully acknowledging the world, then they'll probably realize how frowned upon that would make them--They may take steps to hide it, or otherwise act in a realistic fashion. Your example about the assassin who was using a magicker (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50043.msg908869.html#msg908869) might be an example of this.

You wonder why more people don't look for these shortcuts. Maybe they do, and they're concealing it well. Maybe they're not, and they're playing a character with a more standard view on magick (because shit, that stuff is scary to your typical commoner). My concern with giving magickers more publicly-accepted, socially-acknowledged roles (such as public and accepted membership in a noble house) will drastically push things to making magick seem socially acceptable. I am all for secret hiring of magick, reluctantly choosing to take advantage of it, and clandestine RP around it. I'm not in favor of everyone hanging out with their 'gicker friend at the bar, or using magick for frivolous things when another way would do.

A couple of ideas:

Since the 'rinth is located next to the Gemmed Quarter, there's the potential for some tense cooperation between the two. Say some sort of pest or beast is afflicting the 'rinth. It's starting to spill over into the Quarter. Naturally, the Templarate doesn't much care what happens in the 'rinth, but it's to the benefit of the mages and the 'rinthi to work together to keep the problem down, and each needs the other somehow. Maybe the mages negotiate to rent a small piece of the 'rinth to turn into a field. When they water and till it, they can turn it into crops, some of which goes to feed the 'rinth. Stuff like that.

Some sort of external challenge to the city that can continually preoccupy the Gemmed. I don't know, I've posted ideas for this before but people ignored them or stomped on them. Hmm. Say some Nilazi curse is rising up from the sewers. It can be temporarily held off if gemmed pour mana into a giant crystal sphere to act as a focus. When enough accumulates, the crystal shines brilliantly and the void is sent off, but each time, it returns later, hungrier, and it takes more donated mana to hold it at bay again. Meanwhile the Gemmed work with the Templarate to find a more permanent solution.

But I love the sewers  >:(

See, I have always role played that the Gemmed are to be distrusted by Rinthi.  The reason being as the Gemmed are just the lapdogs of the Templars and they can just force the Gemmed to tell them what they know.  This would be extremely counterproductive to something a Rinthi might want to do.  Gemmed can't keep secrets that Rinthi want kept.  Also, there is always a natural distrust of Rogue Gickers in the Rinth, but this is due to the natural distrust of gickers in general.  In most cases the way the Rinthi deal with those they distrust is by a knife in the back.

Quote from: Ath on October 22, 2015, 07:22:44 PM
See, I have always role played that the Gemmed are to be distrusted by Rinthi.  The reason being as the Gemmed are just the lapdogs of the Templars and they can just force the Gemmed to tell them what they know.  This would be extremely counterproductive to something a Rinthi might want to do.  Gemmed can't keep secrets that Rinthi want kept.  Also, there is always a natural distrust of Rogue Gickers in the Rinth, but this is due to the natural distrust of gickers in general.  In most cases the way the Rinthi deal with those they distrust is by a knife in the back.

I agree with this sentiment 100%.

Only situation where a rogue elementalist might find some solace in the 'rinth is if they get backed by one of the gangs/clans that operate out of the 'rinth...and if that happens it's probably because they're an enforcer or something equally scary, not as your friendly bartender :p

Quote from: Eyeball on October 22, 2015, 06:20:43 PM
A couple of ideas:

Since the 'rinth is located next to the Gemmed Quarter, there's the potential for some tense cooperation between the two. Say some sort of pest or beast is afflicting the 'rinth. It's starting to spill over into the Quarter. Naturally, the Templarate doesn't much care what happens in the 'rinth, but it's to the benefit of the mages and the 'rinthi to work together to keep the problem down, and each needs the other somehow. Maybe the mages negotiate to rent a small piece of the 'rinth to turn into a field. When they water and till it, they can turn it into crops, some of which goes to feed the 'rinth. Stuff like that.

Some sort of external challenge to the city that can continually preoccupy the Gemmed. I don't know, I've posted ideas for this before but people ignored them or stomped on them. Hmm. Say some Nilazi curse is rising up from the sewers. It can be temporarily held off if gemmed pour mana into a giant crystal sphere to act as a focus. When enough accumulates, the crystal shines brilliantly and the void is sent off, but each time, it returns later, hungrier, and it takes more donated mana to hold it at bay again. Meanwhile the Gemmed work with the Templarate to find a more permanent solution.

Heres your solution
'Mon bush did 9/11 fireball' Cthulhu Horror.


I both like and dislike how mags are set up right now, but its an odd feeling so I can't describe it.

Please pardon my intrusion.  I'd like to start out by pointing out that I know considerably less about magic than plenty of other people who've posted. 

That being said, I think that part of this complaint has to do with mages have not quite enough to do, especially with the level of isolation that I would say must be endemic to this kind of role. 

If that's the case, I question that mages are not really the go to people for certain types of jobs, irrespective of clan-based roles?  For example, if I needed something brought in out of the desert, I'd hire a group of hunters, right?  If I source the job to hunters, they'll take ownership of it and either grab the thing themselves or else subcontract it to someone better qualified to go grab something from the desert.

If I need somebody smacked, you hire mercenaries right?  The mercenaries themselves may need to bring on specialists for certain types of missions, but the nice thing about a competent mercenary company is that they're going to make sure that your enemy gets the smack laid down on them.

I'm surprised that people don't dump any amount of work onto their friendly local (read: satanic and evil) mage when they want to investigate, explore or control *any* supernatural situation.  You're a normal person, right?  You don't *want* to understand too much about the gritty details of the hoary and preternatural forces at work in the shadows of the game world.  But if you ran into a mage, let's say a *licensed* mage who is regulated by the Templarate, you might throw him a job now and then to look into the sorts of things that are themselves kind of distasteful.  You don't really care what type of mage takes the job, do you?  All mages are the same, right?  But this gives mages something to do, and then if the situation goes sour you can always dump responsibility squarely on the mage.  And the Templarate, they're supposed to be regulating the gemmed.

No?

I don't want to fuck around with the eldritch horrors.
Let the magickers do that.

Very occasionally, a gemmed (let's use 'gemmed' to distinguish from rogues) does get hired. At least when it's one of mine.

In the case of my last gemmed, I played for about a month and a half RL. Despite introducing himself to various people, giving gifts, and doing what else he could to the best of my (limited) political skill, he was hired exactly once. And ended up not even getting paid for it. He spoke to a Templar only twice the whole time; they just weren't much in evidence. He did get invited to join another excursion on the spur of the moment, but unfortunately I was AFK at the time. The AoD Sergeant of the time detested mages to the point where the sanest choice ICly was to just avoid that person.

??? The soup is just too thin.

Quote from: ibusoe on October 23, 2015, 03:14:17 PM
I'm surprised that people don't dump any amount of work onto their friendly local (read: satanic and evil) mage when they want to investigate, explore or control *any* supernatural situation. 

No?

It's also possible that is happening and (a) the gemmed being hired are as quiet about it as (b) the folks dealing in such shady practices as employing gemmed  are quiet about it.

I also imagine it would take a fair amount of interaction just to get to the assumption that the "friendly local mage" is, in fact, friendly in a way that allows you trust them enough to take the chance and that dealing with them won't just get you ostracized by your clients.  I don't see so many gemmed about for a long time that this level of trust could be forged, imo.

Shady dealings with mages for distasteful/dangerous work is a really cool aspect to Armageddon, but judging by the comments it doesn't happen enough these days.

Back when i played a mage there was a council so there was stability and structure for the mundane folks who wanted shady dealings.

But that's gone now. As a normal PC who wants to contract a mage... what do you do? who do you go to? You don't want to hobnob with a random mage. And you don't have a mage buddy because who's friends with mages? Can you go to Oash? Your local templar? Would they string you up for asking?

Maybe there could be some shady but consistent middle person or organization?

From what I know if you asked your local templar in the right way you could probably get help.

Do not quote me on this.

Quote from: Jihelu on October 23, 2015, 05:36:43 PM
From what I know if you asked your local templar in the right way you could probably get help.

Do not quote me on this.

In my opinion, most commoners in Allanak would not approach a Templar for this kind of thing unless they already have a good relationship with the Templarate, or are affiliated with an organization the Templarate does business with regularly.

I agree that for non-affiliated people, there's no structured way to seek out a magicker for help.  This is probably ICly intended...but OOCly it totally blows and makes playing a Gemmed boring.  Having a Gemmed message board would greatly improve this...  could leave a rumor/hint and could stir up plots through it.

Quote from: Agent_137 on October 23, 2015, 05:09:01 PM
Shady dealings with mages for distasteful/dangerous work is a really cool aspect to Armageddon, but judging by the comments it doesn't happen enough these days.

Unfortunately, old blood leaves quickly, and new blood follows the rules and regulations quite well. Nobody knows just WHAT a magicker can do, and they're not supposed to even if they have an idea. So. Why would I hire a magicker to go scout out something if they can't? Is that the equivalent of the age-old "I'm an assassin stop making me do guard/rescue training"?

Quote from: Riev on October 23, 2015, 07:02:29 PM

Unfortunately, old blood leaves quickly, and new blood follows the rules and regulations quite well. Nobody knows just WHAT a magicker can do, and they're not supposed to even if they have an idea. So. Why would I hire a magicker to go scout out something if they can't? Is that the equivalent of the age-old "I'm an assassin stop making me do guard/rescue training"?

A commoner could reasonably assume that magickers can do stuff they couldn't dream of, and presumably have easier safer magicky ways to do things they can dream of. A " real life" parallel is making a deal with the devil. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deal_with_the_Devil)

Of course commoner wouldn't know which magicker to ask. That's why a middle man / rumor board / organization would be useful.

Quote from: Agent_137 on October 23, 2015, 07:24:18 PM
Of course commoner wouldn't know which magicker to ask.that's why a middle man / rumor board / organization would be useful.

Next character:   A mundane that pimps out Gemmed.


(https://cbssacramento.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/pimp.jpg?w=640&h=360&crop=1)


I couldn't find such a great picture in Oashi colors...sorry...

Quote from: wizturbo on October 23, 2015, 07:42:06 PM
Next character:   A mundane that pimps out Gemmed.

New MMH idea? xD



More on topic, I've already said my concerns about actually giving gemmed acknowledged positions, and how that might affect their social status if affected.

But I was curious about what role everyone would want the gemmed to have, if options were expanded. Luckily, this was answered (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50042.0.html). Here's what people said, at time of posting:


What People Who Want More Gemmed Roles Want

Aod - But not as coded soldiers		39%
Something similar to the Conclave for gemmed mages		33%
In House Tor, should the clan be opened to non-nobles		28%

* Percentages are of those who voted yes and picked a subsection



My questions are as follows:

• How would having gemmed coded as non-soldiers in the AoD differ from what it is now? Would they just get a cloak? What's the advantage?

• How would a new Conclave address the problems with the last one? How would it be balanced?

• Is there some reason that Tor can't just hire gemmed on the side? Why is it better to have them in-house?

Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 09:27:33 PM

• How would having gemmed coded as non-soldiers in the AoD differ from what it is now? Would they just get a cloak? What's the advantage?

• How would a new Conclave address the problems with the last one? How would it be balanced?

• Is there some reason that Tor can't just hire gemmed on the side? Why is it better to have them in-house?

I'll have a stab at these.

1. They'd benefit from OOC coordination and from the official implication that they *should* be used as tools, versus it being left up to each individual leader to seek unaffiliated gemmers out. I can't think of disadvantages except it would make the role too enjoyable.

2. What were the problems with the last one? I assume by last one you mean the Council? Anytime you have an official organization of mages that runs itself you're going to make lots of people very uncomfortable, and rightly so. IMO this would be great, but should be unofficial and kept secret from the populace.

3. Same reasons as #1. But without scorpions out there doing missions, not sure what this would offer that Oash already doesn't. (I assume Oash still hires gemmed?)


Oash, AoD, and unofficial conclave/council would be the ideal amount of options in my opinion. They all have a different flavor and would appeal to different characters.

Quote from: Agent_137 on October 23, 2015, 10:18:46 PM

Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 09:27:33 PM

• How would having gemmed coded as non-soldiers in the AoD differ from what it is now? Would they just get a cloak? What's the advantage?

1. They'd benefit from OOC coordination and from the official implication that they *should* be used as tools, versus it being left up to each individual leader to seek unaffiliated gemmers out. I can't think of disadvantages except it would make the role too enjoyable.

I think the official implication that they should be used as tools is the gem around their neck. If a gemmer actually did want to be used by the templars, presumably they'd be making themselves available and known anyways.

I could maybe see a forum that included gemmer playtimes making things easier. It would be nice, as a gememr, to know when other people are around. I'm not sure that including them as AoD clan is best for this, though. That would give them access to a lot of stuff that's primarily for soldiers to know (maybe information related to rumors only soldiers should know, training schedules, whatever).

My other question is: What are gemmed AoD members (who aren't soldiers) doing when they're not in use? I mean, if they're not soldiers, presumably they're not sparring. I can't imagine that they would have access to the recruit compound--Certainly not to the main soldier barracks.

I don't know, it seems sort of like just making them what they are now, but with (ICly) a cloak and (OOCly) forum access.

Quote

Quote

• How would a new Conclave address the problems with the last one? How would it be balanced?

2. What were the problems with the last one? I assume by last one you mean the Council? Anytime you have an official organization of mages that runs itself you're going to make lots of people very uncomfortable, and rightly so. IMO this would be great, but should be unofficial and kept secret from the populace.

I do mean CAM, yes. The problem with it was that gemmers monopolized all of the plots, being used even when mundanes could have. They also went around covered in silks that might put some nobles to shame. There were a lot of gemmed and non-gemmed relationships happening, as well. In essence, a lot of the social stigma broke down. They weren't viewed as they should be by docs.

Quote

Quote

• Is there some reason that Tor can't just hire gemmed on the side? Why is it better to have them in-house?

3. Same reasons as #1. But without scorpions out there doing missions, not sure what this would offer that Oash already doesn't. (I assume Oash still hires gemmed?)

Well, this presumes that Tor would also be open to normal soldiers. And... Yes, Oash still hires the gemmed.

Which brings me to my next point--Doesn't having Oash being the only official hiring spot for gemmed create more plots and interaction? If Tor wants to hire mages to do something, they can do it on the side (perhaps incurring Oashi ire) or they have to engage in political relations with Oash to use gemmed. Oash's main resource and political influence is gemmed. This can make for interesting interactions and lead to more plots.

QuoteOash, AoD, and unofficial conclave/council would be the ideal amount of options in my opinion. They all have a different flavor and would appeal to different characters.

That would be a lot of different options for gemmed, and I'm not sure why we'd need three clans all open to them. How many mages would that put in a clan at any given time?

Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 10:43:14 PM
I do mean CAM, yes. The problem with it was that gemmers monopolized all of the plots, being used even when mundanes could have. They also went around covered in silks that might put some nobles to shame. There were a lot of gemmed and non-gemmed relationships happening, as well. In essence, a lot of the social stigma broke down. They weren't viewed as they should be by docs.

This 'silk' thing comes up a lot.  I mean, didn't -everyone- agree that commoner gemmed wearing silks was immersion-breaking and seriously documentation breaking, even during the days of CAM, that is, even when gemmed were included in things on an OOC level?  So too with gemmed-mundane relationships: regardless of whether or not CAM exists, gemmed-mundane relations are a no-no.

It just strikes me as a dubious thing to bring up.  It sounds like some gemmed weren't roleplaying correctly, and player complaints should have been filed.  Easy-peasy.

It doesn't seem obvious to me that giving gemmed some access to plots and tasks and a structure would entail that gemmed players would suddenly start breaking the docs.

ETA: On the monopolization of plots thing: that's probably the most legitimate complaint I've heard.  I don't have anything to say on it, since I don't really understand it.  All I can say is that as things stand now, it is the complete opposite: it's like immigration in the US -- you have to prove that the job you are hired for is one no other American can do in order to get a job.

Not roleplaying correctly?  What's wrong with a bunch of oppressed people who relatively quickly gained wealth, power, and prestige wanting to flaunt it?  (Mind you, at the time just about every commoner with the means was wearing finery of that level.  We hadn't had an OOC community backlash over it in general yet.)


Anyway, going back even further I remember several templars that had gemmed acting as de-facto aides for them.  It was delightfully creepy and uncomfortable for everyone else.

Quote from: nauta on October 23, 2015, 10:52:01 PMIt doesn't seem obvious to me that giving gemmed some access to plots and tasks and a structure would entail that gemmed players would suddenly start breaking the docs.

Why does everyone think that gemmed have no access to plots now? Maybe I'm missing something. But if someone wants to hire your gemmed, unaffiliated mage... They can. If it's not socially appropriate for them to, they'll be frowned at.

However, taking a gemmed and saying "we are this organization" and giving them a place in society that could be construed as respected--This is what throws the social balance out of whack. If a gemmer is a member of a House, they have a lot more status then one who does not. An organization behind you gives you social status and power. When you have that, PCs react differently. I'm not saying it's any one group's fault, it's just how it works.


I like this post, so I am going to quote it (formatting mine):

Quote from: Jave on October 18, 2015, 10:10:46 PM

Yes. The gemmed are trapped and marginalized. Physically. Socially. Politically. That's their role within the culture of the Allanaki city state.

They are physically trapped by the gems they are forced to wear.

They are socially trapped by the population's distrust of magic.

They are politically trapped by the design of the government that bars them by law from holding any position of power or authority.

This is what you sign up for when you elect to play a gemmed mage in Allanak. It's the price you pay for the safety you receive. The mages who refuse to be bound in such a fashion either hide their gift or go rouge. It's a big part of our game's setting.

Nauta, the docs on silk-wearing commoners are guidelines, not rules. They explain the conventions in Allanak, not the laws of Allanak, or the OOC RP ettiquette. If the templars want to enforce the conventions as actual laws, they need to do that. But it's not up to the populace to send player complaints against players of commoner characters who wear silk, if the templars who interact with them aren't making them change their outfits. This is definitely one of those "deal with it IC" issues. The same goes for magickers wearing silks. Not a law, but rather a convention that is either enforced ICly or not.

As for hireability, I've encountered several situations in which a gemmed mage should've had plenty of opportunity but didn't. Some of it due to the play times of players not mixing well, some of it due to IC circumstances. What always bothered me most though was that Oash was always breathing down your back if you were a gemmed mage, putting pressure on you to join and using "no one else will hire you" as the excuse.

But virtually - that just flat out isn't true. Tor DOES hire mages - virtually. There might be an OOC moratorium on PCs hiring them, but the house, as a whole, does make use of hired mages. To me, that's even more jarring than some of the stuff people complain about. It's just as jarring as saying "but there aren't any other Kadians" when a noble demands a different merchant to get their new silk gloves from, because she won't do business with a tuluk-inked merchant.

I'd like to see more "unofficial" but still lucrative jobs for unaffiliated gemmed mages. I'd love to see the Senate approve piece-work for the noble houses, as an extension of the Highlord's grasp on his "humanoid tools."

Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 10:43:14 PM
#1 I think the official implication that they should be used as tools is the gem around their neck. If a gemmer actually did want to be used by the templars, presumably they'd be making themselves available and known anyways.

I could maybe see a forum that included gemmer playtimes making things easier. It would be nice, as a gememr, to know when other people are around. I'm not sure that including them as AoD clan is best for this, though. That would give them access to a lot of stuff that's primarily for soldiers to know (maybe information related to rumors only soldiers should know, training schedules, whatever).

My other question is: What are gemmed AoD members (who aren't soldiers) doing when they're not in use? I mean, if they're not soldiers, presumably they're not sparring. I can't imagine that they would have access to the recruit compound--Certainly not to the main soldier barracks.

I don't know, it seems sort of like just making them what they are now, but with (ICly) a cloak and (OOCly) forum access.


#2 I do mean CAM, yes. The problem with it was that gemmers monopolized all of the plots, being used even when mundanes could have. They also went around covered in silks that might put some nobles to shame. There were a lot of gemmed and non-gemmed relationships happening, as well. In essence, a lot of the social stigma broke down. They weren't viewed as they should be by docs.


Well, this presumes that Tor would also be open to normal soldiers. And... Yes, Oash still hires the gemmed.

Which brings me to my next point--Doesn't having Oash being the only official hiring spot for gemmed create more plots and interaction? If Tor wants to hire mages to do something, they can do it on the side (perhaps incurring Oashi ire) or they have to engage in political relations with Oash to use gemmed. Oash's main resource and political influence is gemmed. This can make for interesting interactions and lead to more plots.



That would be a lot of different options for gemmed, and I'm not sure why we'd need three clans all open to them. How many mages would that put in a clan at any given time?

Quote from: nauta on October 23, 2015, 10:52:01 PM

It just strikes me as a dubious thing to bring up.  It sounds like some gemmed weren't roleplaying correctly, and player complaints should have been filed.  Easy-peasy.

Nauta is correct. That had nothing to do with the Council as an organization. I was there in CAM at the "peak". Most of the members were not in silks hobnobbing publicly and ICly were not happy with the attention caused by that behavior.

I'm not sure player complaints would have helped since it's pretty easy to make an IC case for wearing silks and wanting to be accepted by society. But the backlash was real ICly and balance was restored. I'd go into detail but it's probably better as a player submission, and I'm not sure how much of the shutdown was immortals vs PCs. I like to think it was all PC motivated.

And imo the plots were focused on magick because that was the "end times." I'm glad were past that.

I'm not suggesting 3 different clans for mages. I'm suggesting that AoD have some sort of official capacity for the gemmed that are interested. Not all gemmed.  Oash hiring mages is baked into the docs anyway, and the unofficial/secret org could be left purely player run.

Are you arguing for or against having something in AoD for gemmers? Or are you supportive of that but want to refine it?

I'd say they don't even get cloaks.  And even forum access cuold be a sub-forum that just the mages+sergeants+templars have access to.

BLEH. This is the longest post i've written in years. What's the goal here, Taven?  Come up with a polished suggestion to hand to staff to better involve bored gemmers in mundane driven plots?


P.S.

3 posts were posted while i typed, but i didn't read them so I hope this is still a relevant reply.

Eh.  I'm not sure that's true about Tor virtually hiring mages.  It was certainly true once, but there were a lot of high-level (senate) politics regarding mages and their status within society going on and is most certainly could have changed ICly as well as OOCly.  Internal clan docs could also easily be that far out of date.

Quote from: Agent_137 on October 23, 2015, 11:16:42 PMAre you arguing for or against having something in AoD for gemmers? Or are you supportive of that but want to refine it?

I'd say they don't even get cloaks.  And even forum access cuold be a sub-forum that just the mages+sergeants+templars have access to.

So other then a forum that allows mages to have access, what are you advocating with them being a non-soldier part of the AoD? How would it manifest ICly?

I would support a limited-access forum (templars and mages only, I'm not keen on Sargeants) for the sole purpose of sharing playtimes. I don't think it should be just "AoD Affiliated" PCs, though. Why not just have it include all gemmed (including Oashi)? This would be a very useful tool for actually allowing players to better encounter each other ICly. I don't know how I'd feel about a rumor thread here, but it might be okay too... The templars being on this forum would represent that they have an influence and keep an eye on any mages. So anything more "secret" would have to be discussed ICly.

QuoteWhat's the goal here? Come up with a polished suggestion to hand to staff to better involve bored gemmers in mundane driven plots?

The goal is to give gemmed more plot opportunities. There's two groups of thought. There's those who want more clanned roles to encourage more gemmer plot involvement (Wizturbo is a big advocate), and those who worry more clanned roles will change the social status of the gemmer, or that they don't fit the game setting (generally a view held by yours truly). There's a lot of people here with different points in between, too.

Ok, sounds like we're all in agreement that at the very least *all* gemmed should have an OCC board that includes the templars to help coordinate playtimes and mutual RPTs.

That would reduce the need for any official anything between AoD and gemmed. It's not going to be as cool in my opinion as an official role would be, but it's less effort for the staff and less contentious. It's the low hanging fruit.

Some of my top memories as a gemmed were working with AoD, terrifying the soldiers but also being terrifyingly effective. That's big piece of what separates AoD from the Tuluk. Willingness to use mages as tools. They should be used often, but not so much the mystery and fear fades from the soldiers they work with.

Quote from: Agent_137 on October 23, 2015, 11:47:26 PMThat would reduce the need for any official anything between AoD and gemmed. It's not going to be as cool in my opinion as an official role would be, but it's less effort for the staff and less contentious. It's the low hanging fruit.

I'm a little confused as to what you want the official role to be, if there was one. What IC changes or benefits do you see happening that are different from what the gemmed do/have now? I think you said you didn't even want them to have a cloak, and I'm just not really sure what you are wanting, ICly.

Quote from: Taven on October 24, 2015, 12:16:48 AM

I'm a little confused as to what you want the official role to be, if there was one. What IC changes or benefits do you see happening that are different from what the gemmed do/have now? I think you said you didn't even want them to have a cloak, and I'm just not really sure what you are wanting, ICly.

I don't have it well defined in my head. I'm not keeping something from you. I just really enjoyed interacting with the AoD so anything that makes that easier OOCly and ICly (to an extent) would be positive for some portion of the gemmers.

I'll riff on it a bit because you've asked twice.

Goals:

• More Interaction between AoD and Gemmed - more terrified privates and entertained mages and more templars wielding all tools at their disposal brutally effectively.
• Potential conlfict between AoD gemmed and Oash gemmed and unaffiliated gemmed
• Satisfy the 39% of users who voted for AoD in your poll (and if you take Tor of the table, some portion of that 28%)

Features:

• No cloaks, maybe a small patch or something subtle so that AoD insiders would recognize them but the general populace wouldn't.
• Some sort of working relationship with the sergeants that gets earned over time, so they don't always need a templar to take the gemmed out of the stable.
• Shared clan board for sergeants, lieutenants, templars, and the AoD gemmed to plan ass-kicking missions. No Oashi gemmers allowed!
• A little bit of new documentation that clarifies appropriate usage of AoD gemmers

Assumptions:

• this level of interaction isn't already taking place
• AoD sergeants are few in number, like 1-2 at a time
• there's not already documentation like i described in place.
• Gemmers who don't want to hang w/ the militia or oash would be left to their own devices (as they are now).

Risks:

• I've never played in the arm of the dragon so i have little understanding how it works on the inside
• I haven't played this game hardly at all for 3+ years so everything I say could be wildly out of touch

All that said, I'm a big fan of taking the low hanging fruit of a Templar/All-Gemmers OOC board now and figuring the rest out later.

Quote from: nauta on October 23, 2015, 10:52:01 PM
This 'silk' thing comes up a lot.  I mean, didn't -everyone- agree that commoner gemmed wearing silks was immersion-breaking and seriously documentation breaking, even during the days of CAM, that is, even when gemmed were included in things on an OOC level?  So too with gemmed-mundane relationships: regardless of whether or not CAM exists, gemmed-mundane relations are a no-no.

It just strikes me as a dubious thing to bring up.  It sounds like some gemmed weren't roleplaying correctly, and player complaints should have been filed.  Easy-peasy.

I'm not so sure it was inappropriate in the context. Yes, commoners and nobles alike would be pissed off by it, but at that time the Gemmed had the direct patronage of a Templar of the Red, the Great Lord Samos. Once Samos was gone from the scene, the silks and the proud attitudes disappeared fairly quickly. What would people say today if some Oashi Magus was to don a few silks? Probably not too much.

I always figured that a gemmed auxiliary to the AoD could function like this:

1. The gemmed would only be given the recruit level, they'd never become full soldiers with authority over commoners or crimcode privileges.

2. They'd be allowed to enter the usual training compound only on invitation by a soldier. And never the barracks. This would help soldiers find someone to train with during slow periods too.

3. There would be no use of magick whatsoever except on the explicit orders of a Templar or officer (Sergeant and above), either while training or when on expeditions outside the gates. Excepting in their temples.

4. They'd wear a jade cross patch or some other token but no more.

5. They'd be encouraged to talk to each other about working effectively as a team. One of the problems in past RPTs is that gemmed are sort of thrown together in various states and stages and they've never worked together with each other before. Surely the Templarate would like more efficiency than that.

Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 11:11:38 PM

Quote from: nauta on October 23, 2015, 10:52:01 PMIt doesn't seem obvious to me that giving gemmed some access to plots and tasks and a structure would entail that gemmed players would suddenly start breaking the docs.

Why does everyone think that gemmed have no access to plots now? Maybe I'm missing something. But if someone wants to hire your gemmed, unaffiliated mage... They can. If it's not socially appropriate for them to, they'll be frowned at.

However, taking a gemmed and saying "we are this organization" and giving them a place in society that could be construed as respected--This is what throws the social balance out of whack. If a gemmer is a member of a House, they have a lot more status then one who does not. An organization behind you gives you social status and power. When you have that, PCs react differently. I'm not saying it's any one group's fault, it's just how it works.


I like this post, so I am going to quote it (formatting mine):

Quote from: Jave on October 18, 2015, 10:10:46 PM

Yes. The gemmed are trapped and marginalized. Physically. Socially. Politically. That's their role within the culture of the Allanaki city state.

They are physically trapped by the gems they are forced to wear.

They are socially trapped by the population's distrust of magic.

They are politically trapped by the design of the government that bars them by law from holding any position of power or authority.

This is what you sign up for when you elect to play a gemmed mage in Allanak. It's the price you pay for the safety you receive. The mages who refuse to be bound in such a fashion either hide their gift or go rouge. It's a big part of our game's setting.

*shrug* So you basically just don't want anything to change.

People can hire mages, but do they? Very rarely from what I can tell and have experienced. They don't want the social stigma in game and they don't want to be labeled as twinks OOCly. And as someone pointed out, there's no intermediary they can go to. They ICly aren't supposed to know what mages can do and they'd have to poke around temples and hobnob with mages to find anyone. I think the law even says commoners should not enter the Temple Quarter. And as someone else pointed out, even when they're hired, they're helicoptered in and out of plots. They perform their use and they leave. So without an official endorsment, nothing will change.

I think the most significant vote was that 70% of the survey said they'd like to see Gemmed with more roles.  What roles those are, honestly, I'm agnostic towards.  Let the staff decide...the AOD branch one was the most popular on the survey, so it's a good place to consider...but other options are good too.  Just scratch the itch, is all I think we need to do.

Quote from: wizturbo on October 24, 2015, 02:07:39 AM
I think the most significant vote was that 70% of the survey said they'd like to see Gemmed with more roles.  What roles those are, honestly, I'm agnostic towards.  Let the staff decide...the AOD branch one was the most popular on the survey, so it's a good place to consider...but other options are good too.  Just scratch the itch, is all I think we need to do.

I think that's skewed by a perception that gemmed=mages.

Ungemmed, as a role, is as unlimited as the mundane.

The poll said Gemmed pretty clearly, but you might be right, some people might not have made that connection?

Quote from: Armaddict on October 24, 2015, 02:21:09 AM

Quote from: wizturbo on October 24, 2015, 02:07:39 AM
I think the most significant vote was that 70% of the survey said they'd like to see Gemmed with more roles.  What roles those are, honestly, I'm agnostic towards.  Let the staff decide...the AOD branch one was the most popular on the survey, so it's a good place to consider...but other options are good too.  Just scratch the itch, is all I think we need to do.

I think that's skewed by a perception that gemmed=mages.

Ungemmed, as a role, is as unlimited as the mundane.

A fair and valid point. After all, if you don't want to be marginalized, you can always choose not to wear the target on your neck.

Maybe after enough of a climb in numbers of rogues and diminishment in gemmed numbers, it will motivate the people who get the benefits of having the gemmed work for them to decide that maybe the demands of the gemmed are keeping people from submitting to it. Like pushing that change IC through protesting/refusing the gem, because you don't WANT to be marginalized, identified, and to lose all your employment opportunities except whatever freaky thing mages do for Oash. It would take a consistent effort on the part of players who typically play gemmed to do so, though, or else gemmed numbers won't drop, rogue numbers won't swell, and the 2-3 people who do do something will just be shortlived extra antagonists.

It sounds like you just suggested boring players until.they quit the role in such numbers that mundanes notice and miss them.

Gemmed are part of the allanak flavor. They need to be visible just enough to make folks uncomfortable and templars badass. And at the end of the day this is a game, right? Players should be having fun.

At least an ooc board for templars and gemmed would go a long way to getting them involved appropriately.  It's a free low effort experiment. If it doesn't get used then it can be shut down.

Quote from: Taven on October 23, 2015, 11:11:38 PM

Quote from: nauta on October 23, 2015, 10:52:01 PMIt doesn't seem obvious to me that giving gemmed some access to plots and tasks and a structure would entail that gemmed players would suddenly start breaking the docs.

Why does everyone think that gemmed have no access to plots now?

Experience, which I can't talk about here.  I also think there was a perfect storm of staff and PCs that created the current environment.

For me, the question is: Should they have access to plots?  

I'm mostly inclined to say: 'no'.  If you want to play with the awesome magick system in Armageddon, roll up a rogue or a secret mage.  Once you manifest or gem, you'll be basically in a flavour role, like a slave PC, so set your expectations accordingly.

EDIT: Quoted instead of modified myself. Whoops!

I actually very much enjoy the role of gemmed magicker, whether they're involved in plots or not. I usually find stuff to do that I enjoy, but that's probably because I'm a serial flavor role player. Most people don't like playing what I play, and it bores them to death. And if people are bored playing gemmed magickers, and it seems many are, that's a problem. Many players new to the magick system go gemmed because they're overwhelmed by the magick system and want a community of mages to fall back on, so they're not left casting in the wastes and trying to figure out what the hell a component is. The trade-off for that sort of support should not be being bored to death. And the answer to their being bored to death shouldn't be "suck it up; you know what you signed up for."

I get it. Nobody wants the gemmed to overwhelm plots or break the docs or overstep their social status. They're nowhere near that right now, and I think we have some comfortable room to shift a little in the direction of allowing gemmed more built-in stuff to do on a regular basis. I totally agree with those who say Allanak needs to be separated from Tuluk in this way. Allanak, and the AoD, make use of magickers, and that's exactly what makes Tulukis uncomfortable. They're not a magick-loving society, but they employ them to meet their ends. They don't just cloister them in their own quarter and tell them to go practice their spells and then ignore them forever (or nearly so.)

I honestly don't even care if they get clanned status in the AoD, although it'd be interesting if some did. I'd just like to see more expectation that they're going to get used as the tools they are.

Quote from: Eyeball on October 24, 2015, 01:09:14 AM

Quote from: nauta on October 23, 2015, 10:52:01 PM
This 'silk' thing comes up a lot.  I mean, didn't -everyone- agree that commoner gemmed wearing silks was immersion-breaking and seriously documentation breaking, even during the days of CAM, that is, even when gemmed were included in things on an OOC level?  So too with gemmed-mundane relationships: regardless of whether or not CAM exists, gemmed-mundane relations are a no-no.

It just strikes me as a dubious thing to bring up.  It sounds like some gemmed weren't roleplaying correctly, and player complaints should have been filed.  Easy-peasy.

I'm not so sure it was inappropriate in the context. Yes, commoners and nobles alike would be pissed off by it, but at that time the Gemmed had the direct patronage of a Templar of the Red, the Great Lord Samos. Once Samos was gone from the scene, the silks and the proud attitudes disappeared fairly quickly. What would people say today if some Oashi Magus was to don a few silks? Probably not too much.

That's a helpful explanation.  Things are quite different nowadays, for sure, in terms of the culture.  Was Samos a PC?  There is still a red robe in charge of the gemmed quarter, if I understand things correctly.

Also, nota bene: there's still a silk robe on sale at the clothier in the gemmed quarter for a really reasonable price, not to mention all that amazing jewelry.  I assume this was an oversight.

Quote from: nauta on October 24, 2015, 12:55:01 PM

Quote from: Eyeball on October 24, 2015, 01:09:14 AM

Quote from: nauta on October 23, 2015, 10:52:01 PM
This 'silk' thing comes up a lot.  I mean, didn't -everyone- agree that commoner gemmed wearing silks was immersion-breaking and seriously documentation breaking, even during the days of CAM, that is, even when gemmed were included in things on an OOC level?  So too with gemmed-mundane relationships: regardless of whether or not CAM exists, gemmed-mundane relations are a no-no.

It just strikes me as a dubious thing to bring up.  It sounds like some gemmed weren't roleplaying correctly, and player complaints should have been filed.  Easy-peasy.

I'm not so sure it was inappropriate in the context. Yes, commoners and nobles alike would be pissed off by it, but at that time the Gemmed had the direct patronage of a Templar of the Red, the Great Lord Samos. Once Samos was gone from the scene, the silks and the proud attitudes disappeared fairly quickly. What would people say today if some Oashi Magus was to don a few silks? Probably not too much.

That's a helpful explanation.  Things are quite different nowadays, for sure, in terms of the culture.  Was Samos a PC?  There is still a red robe in charge of the gemmed quarter, if I understand things correctly.

Also, nota bene: there's still a silk robe on sale at the clothier in the gemmed quarter for a really reasonable price, not to mention all that amazing jewelry.  I assume this was an oversight.

Samos was a Pc. He was the best Templar I've ever played with.  (see my quote) I haven't actually played a gemmed since the one I had while he was around died. I don't think Samos is likely to be alive anymore though He would be over 100 years old by now at least if he were.

A thought - since we're all about suggestions here:

What if all mage main-guilds came with novice listen as part of their regular skill tree, and could progress, without any specific subguild needed, to apprentice? Just so they could at least have a -chance- at eavesdropping on one line out of a whole hour's worth of conversation when they're stuck being their pariah selves on the ledge instead of at the bar with the AOD and Bynner who pushes them away :)


And...

What if all mage main-guilds came with their choice of any one craft at novice, and could progress, without any specific subguild needed, to apprentice? Even if that craft was limited to some of the less-profitable possibilities, like knife-making, toolmaking, and fletchery, featherworking, and dyeing. Or even if they couldn't ever get past novice without the corresponding subguild.

That's one thing I really miss when I play a non-crafting-subguild mage: a creative hobby for my character. I also always miss listen.

Quote from: nauta on October 24, 2015, 12:55:01 PM
Was Samos a PC?  There is still a red robe in charge of the gemmed quarter, if I understand things correctly.

Samos was a great PC, one of the few who are actually remembered.

Quote
Also, nota bene: there's still a silk robe on sale at the clothier in the gemmed quarter for a really reasonable price, not to mention all that amazing jewelry.  I assume this was an oversight.

It's a leftover from different times, in the same way the proud temples were a leftover until the commoners burnt them down.

Quote from: Agent_137 on October 24, 2015, 12:38:11 AM
I don't have it well defined in my head. I'm not keeping something from you. I just really enjoyed interacting with the AoD so anything that makes that easier OOCly and ICly (to an extent) would be positive for some portion of the gemmers.

I'll riff on it a bit because you've asked twice.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Based on what you said, my summary for an AoD Gemmer position that you'd like to see as having these features:

• Some sort of identification, but not one intended to make them special or give them any sort of influence -- Merely for soldiers to recognize them
• A trust gained over time where they could be taken on patrols by Sergeants, without the company of a templar
• A shared clan boards for AoD gemmed, sergeants, lieutenants, templars
• Added documentation that would elaborate how AoD gemmed could be used and their role

Later on, Eyeball also makes a post (//http://) where he outlines his ideal AoD gemmed participation, which I summarize as such:

• Gemmed would never be given status or authority, their authority would be compared to that of a recruit ("commoner with a patch")
• They could only spar with direct invitation of a soldier
• They would be forbidden the use of the barracks and gain no use of clan facilities other then the above
• They would be forbidden from using magick on patrols or otherwise (excepting in temples), without expressed orders of Sergeant and up
• Gemmed would be encouraged to speak to each other about working as a team

I like that you both are firm in establishing that you don't want the gemmed to have any sort of uniform that would make them special. I like that Eyeball is clear that they would still be outsiders (they would not be allowed barracks use). I also think that no use of magick except on orders is also practical.

My concerns are that I don't think anybody except a templar should generally be ordering magickers around. If gemmed are on a patrol, I don't think a Sergeant should allow them to use magick. I think a templar should be required to be present. I realize that doesn't match at all with your ideas, and would make requirements for gemmed doing things stricter. I also don't think that gemmed should be sparring with soldiers, even without magick. Finally, I think the use of a forum for ONLY officers, gemmers, and templars is sort of giving an OOC status to the gemmed that places them higher then your average soldier.

But, my opinions don't really matter, end of the day! It's up to staff on how they want to handle this. I appreciate you guys taking the time to outline your thoughts. At this point, I'm just going to agree to disagree with you.

Quote from: Agent_137 on October 24, 2015, 12:38:11 AM
All that said, I'm a big fan of taking the low hanging fruit of a Templar/All-Gemmers OOC board now and figuring the rest out later.

I remain in support of this. I think it would be a helpful tool for the gemmed, and I haven't heard anybody voice any objections/concerns about it.  :)

Quote from: bardlyone on October 24, 2015, 02:26:22 AM
A fair and valid point. After all, if you don't want to be marginalized, you can always choose not to wear the target on your neck.

Maybe after enough of a climb in numbers of rogues and diminishment in gemmed numbers, it will motivate the people who get the benefits of having the gemmed work for them to decide that maybe the demands of the gemmed are keeping people from submitting to it. Like pushing that change IC through protesting/refusing the gem, because you don't WANT to be marginalized, identified, and to lose all your employment opportunities except whatever freaky thing mages do for Oash. It would take a consistent effort on the part of players who typically play gemmed to do so, though, or else gemmed numbers won't drop, rogue numbers won't swell, and the 2-3 people who do do something will just be shortlived extra antagonists.

Join the Breed protest! Pushing through the change IC through protesting, because you don't WANT to be marginalized, identified, and to lose all your employment opportunities.

Join the dwarf rebellion! Pushing through the change ic that we aren't all single-minded focused creatures! That we should be allowed to join all the clans cause are stats are superior to humans! Because you don't WANT to be marginalized, identified, and to lose all of your employment oppurtunities!

Join the half-giant adventure! Cause super-smart HG raiders shouldn't be considered bad rp! Because we don't WANT to be marginalized, identified, and lose our ability to have HG sergeant and Lieutenants!

Rogue mages AREN'T considered bad RP, unlike super smart halfgiants. And half-elves come across as human, they usually DON'T suffer those things because of the fact that they look human. Which would make the decision of whether or not you want those things a very much IC decision. Again, unlike the dwarf thing. It is documented that the gem is a choice, you make it, whether or not to identify yourself for marking. And the dwarven focus is a thing inherent in all dwarves. So unless you want to make it so there just aren't rogue mages in the docs or in game at all... that is again, not remotely the same.

I'd be okay with more mage opportunities in AOD or heck maybe even the byn in some limited fashion.


...so long as they have the same restrictions as recruits, and are forced into similar disciplinary schedules. I mean my mundane gets forced into those schedule whether they have the skills or not, it shouldn't be any different for mages. Just that they should have their own corner of the sparring room as for spells they can practice those on their off-time.

Yup, the same schedules and restrictions that keep me from wanting to play in those clans myself.  

Otherwise I think mages are fine, especially with staff commenting on how people can find ways to secretly approach mages for some magickal service with the right RP angle. Add some apartments to luirs, and they'd probably be much better plot wise then my indi ranger, who will probably never see a good plot before he dies to something silly.

If the AoD actually got some IC "Senate ruling yadadadada" they could probably get a fancy "Cast magic in here" room with a templar in there.
Always watching.
Always frowning.
This is the job you don't want kids.

Much of the stuff being suggested here is already happening. If you play a gemmed and don't get involved with clans/fun/roles/oppurtunities is by design of your pc or lack of creativity in the player.

Quote from: Majikal on October 25, 2015, 03:05:28 AM
Much of the stuff being suggested here is already happening. If you play a gemmed and don't get involved with clans/fun/roles/oppurtunities is by design of your pc or lack of creativity in the player.

To some degree I agree with you that opportunities exist, but I don't view lack of creativity as the root cause for why most Gemmed don't get to seize thsoe opportunities.  Ultimately,  sheer usefulness, or consistent, high levels of playtime can overcome just about any constraint in Armageddon.  You could play a one-legged, one-armed elven gemmed and find yourself in the thick of things if you play enough and are charismatic.  The problem is the amount of effort required to get involved is so much higher for a Gemmed than a mundane PC.  

A mundane can be 15 minutes out of char gen and find themselves in the Byn, and going out on contracts/adventures the very same day.  That's because the Byn is cool like that.  A Gemmed might take months of RL time before they're in a position where they can get access to even a fraction of that interaction.  And that's why I feel there needs to be at least one more clan Gemmed can participate in.  At least 71% of the voters on this poll feel the same way. (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50042.0.html (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50042.0.html))

Quote from: wizturbo on October 26, 2015, 02:21:09 PM

Quote from: Majikal on October 25, 2015, 03:05:28 AM
Much of the stuff being suggested here is already happening. If you play a gemmed and don't get involved with clans/fun/roles/oppurtunities is by design of your pc or lack of creativity in the player.

To some degree I agree with you that opportunities exist, but I don't view lack of creativity as the root cause for why most Gemmed don't get to seize thsoe opportunities.  Ultimately,  sheer usefulness, or consistent, high levels of playtime can overcome just about any constraint in Armageddon.  You could play a one-legged, one-armed elven gemmed and find yourself in the thick of things if you play enough and are charismatic.  The problem is the amount of effort required to get involved is so much higher for a Gemmed than a mundane PC.  

A mundane can be 15 minutes out of char gen and find themselves in the Byn, and going out on contracts/adventures the very same day.  That's because the Byn is cool like that.  A Gemmed might take months of RL time before they're in a position where they can get access to even a fraction of that interaction.  And that's why I feel there needs to be at least one more clan Gemmed can participate in.  At least 71% of the voters on this poll feel the same way. (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50042.0.html (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50042.0.html))

You're making a different argument here.  Now it's not about involvement, but about being able to immediately join a clan and slide into place with ease with mages directly out of chargen?

Quote from: Armaddict on October 26, 2015, 03:58:25 PM
You're making a different argument here.  Now it's not about involvement, but about being able to immediately join a clan and slide into place with ease with mages directly out of chargen?

No one asked for gemmers to be able to immediately join a clan out of char gen.

This was all prompted by the big "YES" response to "should more roles be available to the gemmed."

Reducing effort to get involved clearly stems from that. Increasing the number of clans that employ gemmed from 1 to 2 also clearly stems from that.

Obviously it shouldn't be as easy a human fighter, but nor should it be as hard as it is.

What Agent said.  +1

I don't think Gemmed should be able to have as many out of char gen opportunities as a mundane, but they should at least have some roles they can aspire towards besides a single clan which is already quite torn between mundane and magickal concerns.  (House Oash isn't ALL about magick...it's just one of the things they dabble in).

Quote from: wizturbo on October 26, 2015, 05:40:48 PM
What Agent said.  +1

I don't think Gemmed should be able to have as many out of char gen opportunities as a mundane, but they should at least have some roles they can aspire towards besides a single clan which is already quite torn between mundane and magickal concerns.  (House Oash isn't ALL about magick...it's just one of the things they dabble in).

So.  AGAIN.  You are not asking for 'more roles'.  That is a phrase you keep using that is essentially either a misguided one, or a disguise.  You keep saying it, but in reference and explanation, you are, still, asking for more acceptance of the -gemmed- in more places.  Every time it is noted that -mages- have plenty of roles they can fulfill, there is agreement that through remaining ungemmed, one could in actuality do a great deal more things.  But then it reverts back to the same one...take the -existing- game world, and make it more gemmed friendly.  You are asking for more magick in everyone else's plots, to be their magickal assistance, and to have more involvement in the same things as everyone else, and to stop being separated by that gem (which is the very cost of wearing it, as -always-)

(Edited here to differentiate between mages and gemmed.  Sometimes they are not the same thing, as we have gone over.)

I, despite being one of the people who continues to argue at you, was in that poll, agreeing that there could be more roles, specifically for the ungemmed, because everyone who plays a mage seems to demand that they get both the safety of being gemmed and the lack of ostracism that the gemmed receive.  And therein lies the qualm I have with the same points that keep being said:  You are not asking for more roles.  You are asking for a magick-friendly world.  And so, when I say...

QuoteYou're making a different argument here.  Now it's not about involvement, but about being able to immediately join a clan and slide into place with ease with mages directly out of chargen?

...in direct response to...

QuoteA mundane can be 15 minutes out of char gen and find themselves in the Byn, and going out on contracts/adventures the very same day.  That's because the Byn is cool like that.  A Gemmed might take months of RL time before they're in a position where they can get access to even a fraction of that interaction.  And that's why I feel there needs to be at least one more clan Gemmed can participate in.

That is, indeed, a change in argument to say the same thing, i.e. using a new line of reasoning to try and get the same thing that was already being discussed.

And so when someone else chimes in to say

QuoteThis was all prompted by the big "YES" response to "should more roles be available to the gemmed."

...then I am obligated to point out that this is untrue,  since that poll was clearly made after this thread and not before it, in response to the adversity being faced when this topic yet again faced the same valid arguments it always has.  When you can propose something that does -not- involve requiring the history of the game and decades-old tradition of magick's place within the game, or when you can actually do the work IC to change it instead instead of calling out on the GDB for everyone to be more nice and democratically change it so that mages can be more involved in everything (despite there being a clear line of involvement that players of mundanes do -not- want...also discussed in the thread), then I will probably agree with you.  I tried to help with such ideas with the promotion of a group of ungemmed.  Instead that part of your poll is...not even paid attention to.

So to reiterate...the problem I have is not you saying 'I'd like for mages to have more options or more to do', it is the -demand- that such options be further and more deeply integrated into the rest of the game where it doesn't fit, and hasn't fitted...again, unless you point to the period of time where magick was so out of control there was an actual backlash against the karma system due to the mundane being unnecessary.

Edited:  And because this is agro because we have to keep going over these things over and over every year...just a reminder that there were very good suggestions throughout the thread of how mages can be more involved as is, and how they -are- more involved than things appear as is.  If you're standing around just being a mage, and expecting people to come to you, you're doing it wrong.  But I, in the last three or four years, have used more mages for my own ends than I ever have before.  From what responses I've seen, I think that's across the board, and so the constant demand for desegregation of mages from the mundanes is...meh.  I like how you make it sound like the rest of us are just happily gallivanting around up to our elbows in shit to do that we didn't even have to come up with, or that staff are just throwing their clans -tons- of shit to do that a gemmed is just SOL on.  Storylines are small, almost all of mine have been completely self-driven and reactionary, and I don't see why wearing a gem is so different from everyone else's 'I need to make my own shit to do and make my goals.'

Quote from: Armaddict on October 26, 2015, 10:43:45 PM
So.  AGAIN.  You are not asking for 'more roles'.

I want Gemmed to have more clanned roles available to them.  Yes.  I don't care if they are existing clans or new clans.  

None clanned roles might help things too, but I think clans have a lot to offer in Armageddon, like docs, rankings, leaders, message boards, etc.

Looks like the poll was actually posted about 30 minutes after thread start. Just enough time for Armaddict and wizturbo to start arguing. I assumed the poll was first because I saw it first.

At the end of the day, a lot of people said they want to see more roles. Stuff was suggested that would help but also wouldn't require any changes to IC culture. That's a win in my book.

Armaddict, are you saying we shouldn't have this discussion at all? This is a discussion board. I've see the same topics come up again and again over the years. That's OK. It's going to be OK.

QuoteArmaddict, are you saying we shouldn't have this discussion at all? This is a discussion board. I've see the same topics come up again and again over the years. That's OK. It's going to be OK.

I tend to like discussion.  Not when it's the same thing being said over and over.  Not when it's a 'Well, that still received the same argument, let's try -this- approach instead' to still assert the same thing.

And I know it's going to be OK.  But it was apparent that the tender-hearted 'You can get the effects you're looking for as is, without having to change anything about the world' was not making an impact, it was only encouraging more 'But I don't want it that way.'

On a side note:  I was amused recently when looking at the archived GDB because there was a post about the involvement of mages in more things.  The replies/reasons why it can't change are the same ones.  It's...the same discussion.  And that, good sir, is frustrating.

True but at the same time, lots of new people are on the board. Hell as long as I've been here I actually haven't had this discussion (that i recall).

I feel like you're saying that gemmed have it appropriately hard and if the players would just use a little more elbow grease they'd be fine. That any changes would need to be IC or would go against docs and what's been done ICly already.

What about the suggestion for a shared board w/ gemmers and templars? ICly templars can already grab gemmed for whatever they want. But with a shared board templars could post RPTs like "be in your temples X date and Y time if you want to be forced into service as cannon fodder. Survivors will be rewarded with false promises of future favors."

Immediate increase in interaction and conflict. What's not to like?

Something that occurred to me while reading this thread was that a lack of magick-based clans, and magick-specific clan roles is probably robbing new players of mage role-models.

I'm generally against magick super-groups like the CAM, but I wonder if maybe it should be opened up as an exclusive role for that purpose.  Limit it to 1-3 players, place them informally under the templarate, and establish some very clear OOC guidelines on what's expected.  That way, maybe we can bring some OOC leadership/guidance in for the unclanned, but avoid the silk-wearing commoner elites, and magick utopia-style goals.

Quote from: Old Kank on October 27, 2015, 12:52:23 AM
Something that occurred to me while reading this thread was that a lack of magick-based clans, and magick-specific clan roles is probably robbing new players of mage role-models.

I'm generally against magick super-groups like the CAM, but I wonder if maybe it should be opened up as an exclusive role for that purpose.  Limit it to 1-3 players, place them informally under the templarate, and establish some very clear OOC guidelines on what's expected.  That way, maybe we can bring some OOC leadership/guidance in for the unclanned, but avoid the silk-wearing commoner elites, and magick utopia-style goals.

What do you mean, exactly?

I've seen...marvelous mages in the past couple years.  Excellent, very good mages, ones that I would consider very worthy of 'role-model' status for that role.  Are you saying something else?

Perhaps what OK means is that while there may be well played mages, they are rarely in positions of authority or visibility.  Often, it is the most visible example of a role new players think of when they're defining 'What it means to be X' in their minds.  The influence of a well played mage is, generally speaking, not large - and therefore their influence on player perception may be limited in scope as well.

Quote from: Armaddict on October 26, 2015, 11:30:35 PM

QuoteArmaddict, are you saying we shouldn't have this discussion at all? This is a discussion board. I've see the same topics come up again and again over the years. That's OK. It's going to be OK.

I tend to like discussion.  Not when it's the same thing being said over and over.  Not when it's a 'Well, that still received the same argument, let's try -this- approach instead' to still assert the same thing.

And I know it's going to be OK.  But it was apparent that the tender-hearted 'You can get the effects you're looking for as is, without having to change anything about the world' was not making an impact, it was only encouraging more 'But I don't want it that way.'

On a side note:  I was amused recently when looking at the archived GDB because there was a post about the involvement of mages in more things.  The replies/reasons why it can't change are the same ones.  It's...the same discussion.  And that, good sir, is frustrating.

From what I've seen, you're saying the same thing again and again. You don't want anything to change for the gemmed. You make some vague allusion to how gemmed who know what they're doing are super busy so it's the fault of any gemmed player when they're not, but without providing any supporting evidence. You dismiss the results of the poll because you don't like them. Does that pretty much sum it up?

Quote from: Armaddict on October 27, 2015, 01:19:19 AM
What do you mean, exactly?

Quote from: LauraMars on October 27, 2015, 01:30:05 AM
Perhaps what OK means is that while there may be well played mages, they are rarely in positions of authority or visibility.  Often, it is the most visible example of a role new players think of when they're defining 'What it means to be X' in their minds.  The influence of a well played mage is, generally speaking, not large - and therefore their influence on player perception may be limited in scope as well.

Pretty much what LauraMars said, with my emphasis added.  To illustrate, if you were to list those influential characters that opened your eyes to what this game was all about, how many would be mages?  I'd wager you would see a lot of templars and Byn sergeants, with a handful of nobles and merchants, maybe a sorcerer, and almost no elementalists.

To expand on it a bit further: 
I have seen many, many players fall into the same cycle (myself included): 1. Start a new mage.  2. Get a gem.  3. Spend your days practicing magick and your evenings getting the evil eye at the Gaj.  4. Discover there are no other mages of your element actively playing.  5. Get bored with the lack of interaction, direction, or challenge.  6.  Stop playing or store.  I've seen the same thing happen with non-gemmed mages, too, though there's a bit of variety based on their subguild and public face.  Generally speaking, it seems that people don't know what to do with mages.

There's a refrain in this thread that goes something like, "There's plenty of opportunities for mages, you just have to be creative!"  That's true, I imagine.  Inventive players will find a way to avoid or break out of that cycle.  But I also think it's an anti-magic cop-out, because you don't have to be creative to find opportunities with a mundane character.  Search the GDB for ways to get involved, and the main idea you'll see is, "Join a clan!"  Staff recruit players for leadership roles based in part on their ability to involve others and make interesting things happen while sticking to the game or clan's themes, so a big part of the game has a sort of "trickle-down" creativity embeded in it, but mages are largely excluded from that avenue.

So, sure, be creative.  But a player that's new to mages has nothing to go off of, and we see people fall into the same traps.  By minimizing mage involvement in clans and eliminating(?) magick-based leadership roles, players playing mages lose access to those characters that they could potentially learn and benefit from.  Just basic questions like what's reasonable, and what's not?  You wield power over life and death, and yet half-breeds look down on you - how does your character cope with that?  Is there a social hierarchy to mages?  My dwarven Vivaduan has a focus of turning the Sea of Silt to water - how would I even go about that?  My Krathi joined Oash, and my only duties for the past two years have been to "continue my studies" - why did I join House Oash?  There's a robust life to magick on Zalanthas, and we mostly represent it with six or seven skill trees.  How do you interpret that?  Is it possible to push a magick plot that doesn't break or consume the game?

All I'm suggesting is that we take two or three excellent, very good mages, and put them in a position of OOC (or IC) authority, and make examples of them, so that maybe we can learn from one another.

QuoteFrom what I've seen, you're saying the same thing again and again. You don't want anything to change for the gemmed. You make some vague allusion to how gemmed who know what they're doing are super busy so it's the fault of any gemmed player when they're not, but without providing any supporting evidence. You dismiss the results of the poll because you don't like them. Does that pretty much sum it up?

Several things, really.  Several things, over and over...that have been said over and over again for a long time, and I even talked about it in my last post, about being frustrated with having to bring up the same thing in response, because the same thing is being asked for again but with different wording.  I mean...point to where those things just don't hold up, and we can move past them, but as long as they keep getting ignored, I keep bringing them up...because the topic can't move on past them.  That's...kind of the big reason I argue it in the first place.  If you didn't notice, I've stated that numerous times.  We'll go over the ones you just pointed out now, because I do indeed keep saying them!

-I don't want any change to the gemmed.  Not really true, but as stated, I don't want a bunch of mundane clans suddenly hiring them up due to a change of heart out of nowhere, either.  Original assertions in the thread said 'there was a time', and my original arguments included requests for information on these times, because I was around and did not notice what they were talking to.  I acceded the point of time that there was the Council of Allanaki Mages that had far more involvement in everything, but also pointed out that to a large portion of the playerbase at the time, such was a detriment.  I don't think we need to go back to that time period, or try to replicate it.  The contention here is that I think the demand for being mixed in again, particularly in a forced way, will be a step back towards magick-land where the mundane gets phased back in prevalence, which is a shame in a typically low-magic setting, and would rather try to maintain that same setting while still expanding opportunities as desired.

-I didn't say anything about any gemmed who 'knows what they're doing' doing better, I said there are plenty of opportunities for their role, fitting in with the game world rather than demanding change out of it to play a -new- role that is more widely accepted.  If you want to translate as 'knows what they're doing', that's fine, but I it put forward in a manner far closer to 'playing in the outlined role' (from which there are exceptions, but this is not asking for more exceptions, it's asking for an across-the-board-change).  I also stressed that the gemmed mage and the hidden mage are different roles with different options involved for each.  The contention here is -I- don't think that ostracizing of the gemmed within the city is out of place.  I think that's the exact scenario that is described in not only documentation, but in the actual history of the game.  I also think that ungemmed provide an outlet for those who don't want that life, and it will be more exciting, but this is being rejected and brushed aside without explanation (so I keep bringing it up).  As is, the only reason I can guess for it is because it doesn't give what's wanted:  The safety of the gem, mixed with the freedom of mixing with everyone else on a culturally accepted level.  That is, indeed, against the role in my head, and trying to roundabout it.

-Providing evidence is an interesting idea.  Do you...want me to list off mages from the past that were able to come up with things on their own?  I think that's more of a frustrated addendum to your previous question, rather than a real one, because there are even recent gemmed within the city who seem to do pretty alright with getting things done, both for themselves and for others.  Like I said above, I've been very impressed with recent mages.  I gave kudos for one, for a spectacular manifestation.  I -should- give more, for the ones who made their own little community, complete with their own politics and intrigue -and- discreet services to the mundanes.  

-I dismiss the results of the poll because democracy didn't make the game.  You could all decide that you'd like to see at least a -bit- more metal in the game, and it would not make a difference.  Polls on the board show some information, but not perfected information.  For demonstration...that is where I brought up the conclave, because that seems like an option that fulfills the best of both worlds to me in giving a clan, with its plots, that is also somewhat hidden from the populace because of what they are and the freedom to do their thing.  Does it put them into the Gaj at prime hours?  Not as a group of mages.  But maybe as ungemmed people.  In the end, more players saying 'I want this' to me means very little, while maintaining the in-game atmosphere and keeping it balanced so that I can continue to enjoy with future characters so long as I want to play this game means a good deal more.  I'm sorry you interpret it as 'merely hating mages', but it's not.  It's loving the equilibrium of a low-magic setting and resisting the demand for someone else to say 'I'm bored but I want this role to change and invade on your fun with my fun'.  I'd love to contribute to your fun, but not if you shove it in my face as a pure lack of consideration for the lovers of low-magick settings as well.

-I don't know, does that sum it up?  Those are a few of the same things I have to say over and over, from your post, and now I've said them again!  I haven't seen any reason they're actually wrong, yet, but they do stand in direct opposition to the original idea and poll of 'Should we change things?'

QuoteAll I'm suggesting is that we take two or three excellent, very good mages, and put them in a position of OOC (or IC) authority, and make examples of them, so that maybe we can learn from one another.

This is a better approach, I think, though it doesn't necessarily need to be authority so much as...visibility?  Maybe even some sort of menial task for each temple that's coded in, that doesn't put everyone right in the thick of it, but makes that chance inside the city of someone walking past and seeing, and instant roleplay? (i.e. Not a clan member, but a vivaduan responsibility to fill this fountain and this fountain, from this spot on the road and that spot on the road, or wind mages on the wall keeping sandstorms at bay [Since Taijan misses the old days of city sandstorms]). Mages would congregate at those little duties, and the mundane wouldn't be there -normally-, but they might get exposed to it.

I mean...that sort of thing doesn't get them into mundane plots or mix people in for more social interaction, like I think wizturbo is going for, but it would alleviate that new-mage problem, hopefully?

(Edited to add:  I think I may have plagiarized the menial tasks idea from someone.  Sorry, whoever that is.  But it was a good idea and stuck with me.  The gist of it is...find a way to get your goal, but keep the magick and the mundane separate and eyeing each other suspiciously.  That's...one of the greatest relationships, played the best, consistently, that I've seen in any role-playing game.)

Even scumbag shitlord magickers have the opportunity to vote.

(http://civicpaths.uscannenberg.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/WROCK-the-vote-image.jpg)

Quote from: Old Kank on October 27, 2015, 12:52:23 AM
Something that occurred to me while reading this thread was that a lack of magick-based clans, and magick-specific clan roles is probably robbing new players of mage role-models.

I'm generally against magick super-groups like the CAM, but I wonder if maybe it should be opened up as an exclusive role for that purpose.  Limit it to 1-3 players, place them informally under the templarate, and establish some very clear OOC guidelines on what's expected.  That way, maybe we can bring some OOC leadership/guidance in for the unclanned, but avoid the silk-wearing commoner elites, and magick utopia-style goals.

I agree, but isn't that precisely what House Oash is for?

Quote from: nauta on October 27, 2015, 09:28:05 AM

Quote from: Old Kank on October 27, 2015, 12:52:23 AM
Something that occurred to me while reading this thread was that a lack of magick-based clans, and magick-specific clan roles is probably robbing new players of mage role-models.

I'm generally against magick super-groups like the CAM, but I wonder if maybe it should be opened up as an exclusive role for that purpose.  Limit it to 1-3 players, place them informally under the templarate, and establish some very clear OOC guidelines on what's expected.  That way, maybe we can bring some OOC leadership/guidance in for the unclanned, but avoid the silk-wearing commoner elites, and magick utopia-style goals.

I agree, but isn't that precisely what House Oash is for?

It gives House Oash an entirely lopsided amount of coded power to draw on compared to Borsail and Tor. It also becomes the visible focus of the House instead of being a small subsection like it's supposed to be. I'd really rather see a small unafilliated group of mages who work together and closely with the templarate to keep the gemmed in line.

I've seen it happen unofficially, and it was fantastic. It kept the derps in line and helped bring together the experienced players so they could teach said derps how to not be derps.

Quote from: Delirium on October 27, 2015, 09:47:50 AMIt gives House Oash an entirely lopsided amount of coded power to draw on compared to Borsail and Tor. It also becomes the visible focus of the House instead of being a small subsection like it's supposed to be. I'd really rather see a small unafilliated group of mages who work together and closely with the templarate to keep the gemmed in line.

I've seen it happen unofficially, and it was fantastic. It kept the derps in line and helped bring together the experienced players so they could teach said derps how to not be derps.

Totes mcgotes.  I like the idea of a small gemmed mage organization that isn't Oash.  The idea behind CAM wasn't bad.  But like a lot of things during that period of the game, it was more over the top than would make sense today. (reversible silk coats! fancy titles! waterfalls!) The idea could be brought back, if the execution was adjusted to something more in line with Allanak's current feel. (Strict regulations! Asceticism! Humility!)  Staff support doesn't have to mean staff favorites and now you win the game.

Honestly, giving Oash magic and denying it to every other House (while simultaneously making Oash suffer negligible to zero social consequences) has never made sense to me and is a completely broken part of Allanak, but that's a separate topic.

Quote from: nauta on October 27, 2015, 09:28:05 AM
I agree, but isn't that precisely what House Oash is for?

Oash only cares about the human mages.  I meant don't we all?  But just saying...

Quote from: Delirium on October 27, 2015, 09:47:50 AM

Quote from: nauta on October 27, 2015, 09:28:05 AM

Quote from: Old Kank on October 27, 2015, 12:52:23 AM
Something that occurred to me while reading this thread was that a lack of magick-based clans, and magick-specific clan roles is probably robbing new players of mage role-models.

I'm generally against magick super-groups like the CAM, but I wonder if maybe it should be opened up as an exclusive role for that purpose.  Limit it to 1-3 players, place them informally under the templarate, and establish some very clear OOC guidelines on what's expected.  That way, maybe we can bring some OOC leadership/guidance in for the unclanned, but avoid the silk-wearing commoner elites, and magick utopia-style goals.

I agree, but isn't that precisely what House Oash is for?

It gives House Oash an entirely lopsided amount of coded power to draw on compared to Borsail and Tor. It also becomes the visible focus of the House instead of being a small subsection like it's supposed to be. I'd really rather see a small unafilliated group of mages who work together and closely with the templarate to keep the gemmed in line.

I've seen it happen unofficially, and it was fantastic. It kept the derps in line and helped bring together the experienced players so they could teach said derps how to not be derps.

Yeah, I can see that too.  I really wanted something like that, frankly, and I don't buy this slippery slope argument that runs from the non-Oashi gemmed having some form of OOC-enabled leadership to gemmed wearing silks, proud gemmed, and gemmed-mundane public couples.

I think, to take a step back, one thing that makes it really hard to talk about this topic are some of the restrictions (which I'm not advocating pulling back, but I do want people who contribute to the topic to take them into account).

First, a lot of what Eyeball is talking about happened within the last RL year, so we can't talk about that.  I do agree with a lot of what Eyeball is saying, but I also disagree with some of it, and it's hard to really articulate that without getting into specifics.  I don't think all the problems he encountered were 'structural': some of them were just owing to the current players and staff and their interests.  What's frustrating is that some of the remarks from other people in the thread fly in the face of what happened on the ground in the last RL year, yet you can't really say anything about that.  So there's a lot of back-and-forth: "Yes, of course gemmed can do awesome fun plot-related things; no, um, no they can't."  The real answer is somewhere in between: as it stands right now, it is really hard to get a gemmed involved in a plot, and the plots you end up getting involved in are limited, and often, see (point 2) helicopter plots: "Cast this on this.  Thank you, Bye."

Second, in my view, your experience will depend on the kind of elementalist you are.  Some elementalists have powers and abilities that allow them to be utilized in plots that are more than just 'cast that spell on that thing, thank you, goodbye', whereas other elementalists are limited to plots that are just that.  But, unfortunately, we can't really talk about the different kinds of powers that different elementalists have.  (Vaguely, Drovians and Whirans are in a far better position to do meaningful work behind the scenes than, say, a Vivaduan or Elkrosian -- emphasis on 'meaningful' here.)

In my view, anything that will make it easier for non-Oashi gemmed to get something going on their own would be a positive benefit: a board for OOC coordination of playtimes, rumours, absent notices, and so on might well be sufficient, but there could be other things too.

(EDITED: Oops, I meant RL year not IG year, of course!)

Quote from: LauraMars on October 27, 2015, 10:05:57 AM

Quote from: Delirium on October 27, 2015, 09:47:50 AMIt gives House Oash an entirely lopsided amount of coded power to draw on compared to Borsail and Tor. It also becomes the visible focus of the House instead of being a small subsection like it's supposed to be. I'd really rather see a small unafilliated group of mages who work together and closely with the templarate to keep the gemmed in line.

I've seen it happen unofficially, and it was fantastic. It kept the derps in line and helped bring together the experienced players so they could teach said derps how to not be derps.

Totes mcgotes.  I like the idea of a small gemmed mage organization that isn't Oash.  The idea behind CAM wasn't bad.  But like a lot of things during that period of the game, it was more over the top than would make sense today. (reversible silk coats! fancy titles! waterfalls!) The idea could be brought back, if the execution was adjusted to something more in line with Allanak's current feel. (Strict regulations! Asceticism! Humility!)  Staff support doesn't have to mean staff favorites and now you win the game.

Honestly, giving Oash magic and denying it to every other House (while simultaneously making Oash suffer negligible to zero social consequences) has never made sense to me and is a completely broken part of Allanak, but that's a separate topic.

Truth.

I never understood why every other House in the Known world would dig their own eyeballs out with shame before hiring magickers, but Oash is allowed to do it with seemingly ZERO negative backlash to their public positioning within the city.

It seems like the House who did that would not only not be in the top ranks within the city, but would be the House that basically got snubbed by every other House due to their associations. They would basically be "The Byn" of the noble Houses.

Instead Oash enjoys a high-end prominent position within the city where everyone pretends they don't just dick around with some of the most terrifying nightmares the world has to offer.

Wut?

I guess the argument would be, "They are just pretending to not snub them because they are scared of their magickers.". That is a valid point.

Still...being a gemmed and being part of a noble House where that noble House backs you....which translates into nobles backing you..really seems to take a lot of the flavor out of playing a gemmed.

Most Oashi gemmed mages play like junior nobles in my experience because they know they have nobles backing them....I would say it is the wrong way to do it.....but they aren't wrong. They really do have that backing and I have seen it play out exactly in a way that would afford them that stature more than once.

Why doesn't everyone just do what Oash does?

Quote from: Jihelu on October 27, 2015, 12:46:17 PM
Why doesn't everyone just do what Oash does?

That's one of my main beefs with the status quo.  Is House Oash the ONLY organization that see's the value in magickers?  Are the rest of them too stupid, or too scared to utilize magick?  That seems really unlikely to me.

Quote from: Desertman on October 27, 2015, 10:20:30 AM
Truth.
I never understood why every other House in the Known world would dig their own eyeballs out with shame before hiring magickers, but Oash is allowed to do it with seemingly ZERO negative backlash to their public positioning within the city.

The answer, I think, is that every other House in the Known World wouldn't dig out their own eyeballs.  Some of them would see the value, and they use magickers either overtly or subtlety.  House Oash just happens to have roles open to PCs, and are the largest noble house to hire them.  Let's put it this way, using a single example...  Do you think that every noble House except Oash wouldn't have a Vivaduan?  A magicker who can provide water, and provide unparalleled healing.  To have even a single one would be massive advantage over any House that doesn't.  Is House Oash the only one to realize this?  That'd be like only one wealthy family in the world using modern medical technology, because the rest of the world is too scared and would rather use leeches. 

But keep in mind, House Oash doesn't have hundreds and hundreds of Gemmed servants.  They have a relatively small number of magickers that they hire for specific purposes.  House Oash isn't the magicker house, it's just one of their little side projects.   I'd also like to point out some IC events where Oash very much did catch some backlash for their acceptance of magickers (their wine shop was burned to the ground), and they also have plenty of political backlash...it's just they're so powerful and influential that they're able to shrug off some of it.

Isn't that kind of answering your own question?  It isn't that Oash sees the use of them, it's that they find magickal things interesting and worth experimenting and investigating.  Backwards in time, they were the ones who usually had magickal plots to share with people, because they were the ones taking every bit of magickal information and looking deeper into it.  Even then, though...they'd find something that needed force, and the AoD and Tor would roll in demanding favors in return, and it worked out.  It was the reverse of what you're describing...-the mundane- would be the helicopter.  They'd come in, clear the thing, get their favor, and disappear, and the Oashi plot would move on.

So no, Oash doesn't have some sort of tremendous advantage over the other Houses as a result.  They all still need each other, Oash just happens to have some tools at their own disposal used for their own ends.

Truthfully, it just may have been the mages who suffered most when we said 'More PC run plots!', because we can't make magickal investigation plots as easily, unless we're given the ability to conjure them up at a whim.  "I have decided...that this magickal thing exists!  Investigate  it for me!"

QuoteBut keep in mind, House Oash doesn't have hundreds and hundreds of Gemmed servants.  They have a relatively small number of magickers that they hire for specific purposes.  House Oash isn't the magicker house, it's just one of their little side projects.   I'd also like to point out some IC events where Oash very much did catch some backlash for their acceptance of magickers (their wine shop was burned to the ground), and they also have plenty of political backlash...it's just they're so powerful and influential that they're able to shrug off some of it.

This, in particular, is the answer to your own question.  There have been in-game riots over mages being prevalent.  There have been things destroyed.  There have been terrorist acts over it.  Noble houses, again, are there in public view.  Oash is an exception, they know it, and they are careful with it while still doing their own thing.

If the compromise was made as you're suggesting, my impression is that it would be even more limited in other places.  Sure, we want a water mage, but that fucker is -not- getting seen in public and causing us a shitstorm.  The biggest amount of 'give' for this is probably in merchant houses, since they've more traveling, more compounds, more of everything...and they'd likely be allowed, just like writing, so long as it was regulated.

Quote from: Jihelu on October 27, 2015, 12:46:17 PM
Why doesn't everyone just do what Oash does?

I'd assume because while it may be your inclination to see it as too useful to not use, the game has clearly stated that such is -not- the common sense of Zalanthas.  Most people are not 'curious about how it works', and thus don't build a little experiment out of them that resulted in them having a small standing group of mages.

Quote from: wizturbo on October 27, 2015, 12:50:30 PM
House Oash isn't the magicker house, it's just one of their little side projects.   I'd also like to point out some IC events where Oash very much did catch some backlash for their acceptance of magickers (their wine shop was burned to the ground), and they also have plenty of political backlash...it's just they're so powerful and influential that they're able to shrug off some of it.

Maybe the documentation states that House Oash isn't supposed to be "the magicker house" - but it is the magicker house.  It is.  House Oash is literally the only clan mages can join, barring exceptional circumstances in the AoD.  That makes it "the magicker house" on every level that matters.

And that's a point a couple of other people have made in this thread already, which is the disparity of House Oash's place in society and its purported IC power.  It doesn't add up.  Why is House Oash so influential and powerful, again?  Why are they located in the top tier of Houses alongside Borsail and Valika?  It isn't really clear.  Is it because they sell wine?  Is Oash wine that profitable and important to Allanak that it can be compared to the key Allanaki infrastructures of slavery and money?  Is it because House Oash is supposed to be the shady and sinister one(*strokes goatee*)?  Is it because they hire mages?*  Oh wait - right. The magicker thing is a side project.

It boggles my mind that House Oash is allowed to hire mage PCs for its "side thing" when most of the other noble houses can't even hire mundane pcs for their "main things".  My hunch is that this is because Oash's "main thing" isn't actually all that fleshed out OOCly** and if Oash were to close its doors to mage PCs tomorrow, there wouldn't be anything for Oash nobles to do and no roles in Oash for commoners to fill other than the standard Aide > Senior Aide > Advisor career path.  Which wouldn't be that bad, in my opinion - it's more or less the only commoner role the other Houses have available.

If mages are awful, and meant to be shunned by society's elite, then Oash doesn't get nearly enough flak for working so closely with mages that they literally dress them in livery and let them live in their barracks with their mundane servants. If mages are NOT awful, and are not meant to be so shunned by society's elite, then that needs to be communicated to the playerbase.  I've seen PC nobles from other Houses experience a shitload of consequences though, both ICly and OOCly, for being interested in and researching magick, so I very much doubt it.

Now, I'm not saying that I'd prefer it if mages were more accepted in society.  If they're shunned, great, I like that role for mages.  It's a good fit for our game, and I have no complaints about sidelined, marginalized mages.  I just wish House Oash actually had to experience the same reality as the rest of the city where magick is concerned.

*These questions are rhetorical to a large extent - I have read the House Oash documentation and am familiar with their backstory.  

**Yes, I know they had their PC guard unit back in the day, but so did all the noble houses, and sadly, that's no longer a role that exists in any capacity right now.

Quote from: LauraMars on October 27, 2015, 02:05:26 PM

Quote from: wizturbo on October 27, 2015, 12:50:30 PM
House Oash isn't the magicker house, it's just one of their little side projects.   I'd also like to point out some IC events where Oash very much did catch some backlash for their acceptance of magickers (their wine shop was burned to the ground), and they also have plenty of political backlash...it's just they're so powerful and influential that they're able to shrug off some of it.

Maybe the documentation states that House Oash isn't supposed to be "the magicker house" - but it is the magicker house.  It is.  House Oash is literally the only clan mages can join, barring exceptional circumstances in the AoD.  That makes it "the magicker house" on every level that matters.

And that's a point a couple of other people have made in this thread already, which is the disparity of House Oash's place in society and its purported IC power.  It doesn't add up.  Why is House Oash so influential and powerful, again?  Why are they located in the top tier of Houses alongside Borsail and Valika?  It isn't really clear.  Is it because they sell wine?  Is Oash wine that profitable and important to Allanak that it can be compared to the key Allanaki infrastructures of slavery and money?  Is it because House Oash is supposed to be the shady and sinister one(*strokes goatee*)?  Is it because they hire mages?*  Oh wait - right. The magicker thing is a side project.

It boggles my mind that House Oash is allowed to hire mage PCs for its "side thing" when most of the other noble houses can't even hire mundane pcs for their "main things".  My hunch is that this is because Oash's "main thing" isn't actually all that fleshed out OOCly** and if Oash were to close its doors to mage PCs tomorrow, there wouldn't be anything for Oash nobles to do and no roles in Oash for commoners to fill other than the standard Aide > Senior Aide > Advisor career path.  Which wouldn't be that bad, in my opinion - it's more or less the only commoner role the other Houses have available.

If mages are awful, and meant to be shunned by society's elite, then Oash doesn't get nearly enough flak for working so closely with mages that they literally dress them in livery and let them live in their barracks with their mundane servants. If mages are NOT awful, and are not meant to be so shunned by society's elite, then that needs to be communicated to the playerbase.  I've seen PC nobles from other Houses experience a shitload of consequences though, both ICly and OOCly, for being interested in and researching magick, so I very much doubt it.

Now, I'm not saying that I'd prefer it if mages were more accepted in society.  If they're shunned, great, I like that role for mages.  It's a good fit for our game, and I have no complaints about sidelined, marginalized mages.  I just wish House Oash actually had to experience the same reality as the rest of the city where magick is concerned.

*These questions are rhetorical to a large extent - I have read the House Oash documentation and am familiar with their backstory.  

**Yes, I know they had their PC guard unit back in the day, but so did all the noble houses, and sadly, that's no longer a role that exists in any capacity right now.

+1

Even if it's not supposed to be "The magicker House.", it is in reality for most people thought of as that and only that. Myself included.

When I think Tor, I think elite badass mundane combat fighters and leaders.

When I think AOD I think soldiers.

When I think Borsail I think hoity snooty nobles.

When I think Fale I think zany hijinks and comedy.

When I think Byn I think gritty mercenaries and scumbags.

When I think Oash...the ONLY thing I ever think is..."The magicker House.". Nobody is out there thinking, "Oh, the wine House.", because the only thing they ever are known for is their magicker stuff when it comes to the players.

In theory they probably aren't "supposed" to be "The magicker House.", but in practice, they are.

+2

One of my ic interactions about Oash were basically as follows.
"So Oash is the wine house, what else do they do?"

"Thats basically it"
"Also magic"

Thats all they are.
Which is more exciting.
Magic.
Or wine.

Clearly, the answer should be 'magic wine.'

The only problem is finding a customer...

I think magickers should be entitled to one of a series of 'past-life' subguilds, a few skills they would have from what they did before.

1. Bendune and forage food (magickers never get to have both of these at once, which doesn't make sense)
2. master cooking (no extended subguild required)
3. knife-making, toolmaking and clayworking
maybe some more

Quote from: The Silence of the Erdlus on October 30, 2015, 08:04:06 PM
I think magickers should be entitled to one of a series of 'past-life' subguilds, a few skills they would have from what they did before.

1. Bendune and forage food (magickers never get to have both of these at once, which doesn't make sense)
2. master cooking (no extended subguild required)
3. knife-making, toolmaking and clayworking
maybe some more

This would be cool.

Quote from: The Silence of the Erdlus on October 30, 2015, 08:04:06 PM
I think magickers should be entitled to one of a series of 'past-life' subguilds, a few skills they would have from what they did before.

1. Bendune and forage food (magickers never get to have both of these at once, which doesn't make sense)
2. master cooking (no extended subguild required)
3. knife-making, toolmaking and clayworking
maybe some more

Yeah I suggested that all mage main-guilds should come with the player's choice of just a small list of craft skills. Any one, just so they'd have something to do with their time. I realize they all get something eventually but not all of them make it that long. The path there can also be boring and - depending on the mage - unprofitable. A choice of craft skills that don't ever get to mastery or even necessarily advanced. Just a little something as a "hobby" so you don't have to use a whole subguild just so you have something codedly productive to do besides spam-cast all day.

Quote from: Lizzie on October 30, 2015, 09:03:59 PM

Yeah I suggested that all mage main-guilds should come with the player's choice of just a small list of craft skills. Any one, just so they'd have something to do with their time. I realize they all get something eventually but not all of them make it that long. The path there can also be boring and - depending on the mage - unprofitable. A choice of craft skills that don't ever get to mastery or even necessarily advanced. Just a little something as a "hobby" so you don't have to use a whole subguild just so you have something codedly productive to do besides spam-cast all day.

Why not just make most craft skills available to all characters at a low cap?  Maybe, if possible, make it so they progress very slowly in the craft if they don't get it from their guild or subguild, or, it takes a long time to "branch" and have it added to your skill list, kind of like a language?

Quote from: wizturbo on October 31, 2015, 07:06:00 AM

Quote from: Lizzie on October 30, 2015, 09:03:59 PM

Yeah I suggested that all mage main-guilds should come with the player's choice of just a small list of craft skills. Any one, just so they'd have something to do with their time. I realize they all get something eventually but not all of them make it that long. The path there can also be boring and - depending on the mage - unprofitable. A choice of craft skills that don't ever get to mastery or even necessarily advanced. Just a little something as a "hobby" so you don't have to use a whole subguild just so you have something codedly productive to do besides spam-cast all day.

Why not just make most craft skills available to all characters at a low cap?  Maybe, if possible, make it so they progress very slowly in the craft if they don't get it from their guild or subguild, or, it takes a long time to "branch" and have it added to your skill list, kind of like a language?

Because it'll revert to nothing more than a race to see who can get to the NPC first with their 5 of each 4-sid chpped bone dagger, 5 grey feather rings for 3 sids, five etc. etc. Your suggestion basically eliminates any reason for those crafting skills to inspire people to interact with each other. If everyone can do XYZ then no one will need anyone to do XYZ for them. If only some can do X, some can do Y, a couple can do Z, then everyone will have an -opportunity- to want to interact with each other.

The point of this is to allow the mages a minor coded hobby that is similar to the coded hobbies that come with every other class right out of the box. The benefits to this are many, the detriments are non-existent. Remember - most of the "profession" guilds start with at least one "crafting" skill in addition to cooking. Except mages. Zero mage main guilds come with any crafting skill right out of the box. I'm also suggesting only certain of the crafting skills - nothing that turns them into serious money-makers - they'd have to pick one of the usual subguilds for that. You don't need to be a master clothworker to get rich from clothworking. So no, they shouldn't have that. Toolmaking. Dying. Fletching. Clayworking. Stoneworking. Featherworking. Only ONE of them - their choice of which one - capped at a mid-level Journeyman. So they have something to DO, that isn't a coded waste of time and will demonstrate that - without any subguild at all, they are more than simply the sum of their spell list.

Just because realistically everyone CAN bead a bracelet, doesn't mean they WILL, and giving them the ability to do so in-game assures that most WILL. So we got to not have that. You know, basically what Lizzie said.

Just for kicks I also like crafting being this sort of precious skill that ignorance and illiteracy has limited to the hands of a few. It gives my mundane non-combatants something in which to be of value.

Maybe instead of increasing the skills witches can have, there should just be more to _do_ in the game. Games, like I suggested in the other thread, especially ones that can be played when you're alone.

Quote from: The Silence of the Erdlus on October 30, 2015, 08:04:06 PM
I think magickers should be entitled to one of a series of 'past-life' subguilds, a few skills they would have from what they did before.

1. Bendune and forage food (magickers never get to have both of these at once, which doesn't make sense)

If you choose a "nomadic" origin in chargen you'll be able to speak bendune.  You can then also take one of the subguilds/extended subguilds that let you forage food.

Oh, dur.

I don't think this is true.  Everyone CAN learn bendune, how many actually do?  The same could be true for feather crafting or whatever.

I am usually biased against magickers. That said promoting interactions both positive and negative is worthwhile.

With that in mind, any additions to them that would encourage players to play them as people who happen to be magickers, as opposed to 'creepy being from another dimension that talk only to themselves and lives isolated in a cave' is alright with me. Its really why I liked the sorcerer changes, since i felt it promoted them being part of organizations or society, while still being the scum of the known.

I like lizzie's suggestion, though I don't know if that would open more role opportunities. Still anything that might allow them to be more useful to people without completely resorting to magick might open up some RP opportunities. Maybe?.  I think the staff have already commented, that its okay to work with magickers, so long as its RPed properly, you are working with something that might give you cancer.  

I was thinking about suggesting this for merchants, but I think it might be beneficial for magickers. Given the fact that magickers are already OP, I don't think this idea would make a huge difference but i totally acknowledge that others might know best. My idea would be to give them one weapon skill capped at apprentice, and maybe allow them better combat skills.  The reason i suggest this is because then magickers could pick mercenary sub-guild, and join things like the byn, or be soldier in AoD or kurac. It would open up some nice opportunities for non-gemmers, and who knows, it might open up some more interesting RP opportunties later on for them if they do get found out. I always thought the idea of working with someone I liked and enjoyed working with, only to find out they were a magicker later would be neat.

Before anyone says extended sub-guilds like aggressor, they might help but i feel it would still be a fustrating experience since you'd lack so many other utility skills. I gotta say, extended sub-guilds are amazing on rangers who have tons of other important skills, but they can still a very tough choice for most other guilds depending on what you want to do but I'm derailing now.

I dunno though, these are just some late night random thoughts on this subject.  :-[

Quote from: Rokal on October 30, 2015, 08:26:36 PM

Quote from: The Silence of the Erdlus on October 30, 2015, 08:04:06 PM
I think magickers should be entitled to one of a series of 'past-life' subguilds, a few skills they would have from what they did before.

1. Bendune and forage food (magickers never get to have both of these at once, which doesn't make sense)
2. master cooking (no extended subguild required)
3. knife-making, toolmaking and clayworking
maybe some more

When thinking about playing my first magicker, I've wrestled with this, because I feel they'd have had a whole life going on that was perfectly viable (since I'm not interested in playing children).  I think this would be great.

This would be cool.

So, here are some thoughts on the gemmed experience.  I guess my basic thesis here is that one thing we might do that might get some bang for our buck is to flesh out some of the documentation about gemmed life; a lot of what is there is vague, intentionally so, allowing gemmed to sort of create their own culture, but this at the same time leaves things fairly nebulous.  (I'm motivated here by Desertman's analogy with the desert elves, where the culture and spiritual practices are spelled out in detail in the documentation).  ETA: Having documentation on various things is a nice hook for me at least to explore solo RP, and it might be a way to generate interesting RP within the gemmed Quarter itself.

In particular:

1. What is temple life like?  There are some NPCs in the temple, but they don't do anything.  IG there was some debate about whether there were 'elders' in the temple, or a structure.  An example (or some examples) of regular gemmed doing their daily temple routines would be helpful.

2. What is magical life like?  The help files for magickers are rich with allusions to things -- there's even a reference to God in one of them -- but there isn't much on what it's like to actually cast and be magickal with this whole 'mana' thing: how does it feel?  what does it feel like to use the words?  what does it feel like to learn a new spell?  There are some threads dedicated to the subject on the gdb, but it might be helpful to pull this together.  (Leaving it so vague means that the various PCs sort of contradict each other on some core issues.)

3. What is life like in the Quarter?  There are laws, but you won't discover those except IG (if you are lucky).  A brief precise of the laws, or perhaps a sample of the templar's speech that you get when you get a gem, would be helpful.  (Again, leaving it vague means that various PCs sort of contradict each other on some basic laws.)

4. What about family life?  Are there families in the gemmed quarter?  Do gemmed couples have gemmed babies?  What happens to those babies?  Do some gemmed still keep their mundane families in the quarter?  Do gemmed live outside the quarter with their mundane families?

5. What is life like vis-a-vis the templarate and the Arm of the Dragon?  What roles are even available there?  Are you required to heed the call of the templarate or are you more of a mercenary?

6. What about gemmed-gemmed relationships?  This is particularly nebulous, if I recall -- there's hints in the documentation that some gemmed types dislike others, but if I recall it only shows up in some helpfiles and not others.

7. A lot of times the echoes that a spell gives and the documentation contradict each other.  Sometimes the echo suggests a visible effect, when it is invisible, and vice versa.  (That's just a matter of bugging and fixing, so probably the easiest on the list.)

8. What is the history of the Quarter?  Who made it, the gemmed or the templarate?  What happened during that CAM stuff people talk about on the gdb?  What about that whole temple burning stuff and the rebuilding stuff?  As far as I can tell there's just a very small blurb about it on the history page, which isn't quite enough to get into the feel of what the history of the place is.

I understand that there's a tension between 'too much documentation' and 'too little documentation', and I'm not going to say it's an easy task to find that balance.  

A few practical things that might help:

a.  I really liked a suggestion a while ago: implement a gemmed clan with a gemmed board for discussion of various aspects of roleplay.  Perhaps you could do this on a temple-by-temple basis (a Vivaduan board, a Rukkian board, etc.), where people can discuss things like: what does it feel like to cast [spell]?  What is temple life like here?  Etc.

b. A leadership position for the non-Oashi gemmed, perhaps associated with the AoD/Templarate, as suggested above.  One way to 'pass on' culture (and resolve conflicting opinions on things like the laws or the history or how it feels to cast) is to have a leader PC.  (Compare with Oash, where there is a hierarchy of gemmed, and you can seek out advice on lore and magic from the higher ups.)

For a lot of that stuff, I feel you can and should find out IG.

I do agree with needing more clarification in regards to the law, though.  I've been surprised a lot by what does and doesn't trigger crimcode in the quarter.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on November 17, 2015, 01:54:17 PM
For a lot of that stuff, I feel you can and should find out IG.

I guess I disagree: for a lot of that stuff you can't find out IG, you should find out through documentation.  (PCs often are exceptions to the rule, especially in the gemmed case.)

I'm not sure how that's a disagreement.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on November 17, 2015, 02:18:15 PM
I'm not sure how that's a disagreement.

You said: For a lot of that stuff, you can find out IG.
I said: For a lot of that stuff, you can't find out IG.

My thought is to make answers to that available to gemmed-only documentation (maybe flesh out the help file / add a new one on gemmed life or whatever).

Ah, your comma threw me off.

I guess we just have to disagree, then.  Further discussion on my part is just going to make me sound like a crotchety old veteran and probably make you more frustrated.  Cheers and good luck.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on November 17, 2015, 01:54:17 PM
For a lot of that stuff, I feel you can and should find out IG.

I do agree with needing more clarification in regards to the law, though.  I've been surprised a lot by what does and doesn't trigger crimcode in the quarter.

Not sure about the can, maybe the should for some of them, but...

You can't find out how 1,2,3, or 4 are supposed to be IG.  Except, perhaps, by observing other PC gemmed.  Given those gemmed are likely making everything up as they go along because, you can't find out how 1,2,3, or 4 are supposed to be IG?  It's all pretty much hearsay and guesswork as the gemmed or maybe an enterprising Templar try to create a culture.  Even then, that culture will fade almost as fast as the PC, because there is nothing documented and certainly nothing stamping it as "the way it is".

So +1 to a little documentation sent the way of the gemmed, sort of "what your new life is like in the Gemmed Quarter and the temples".

I wouldn't want the docs to be public. Maybe given on request to players of gemmed, especially if the concept is that they had lived in the quarter for a long time.

Possible solution for documentation for char-gen-gemmed (and would also work for any options selected in the hall of kings, even mundane non-magicks):

When the player opts to get the gem in the HOK/pre-game area, they get a 2-paragraph blurb about what it "means" to be gemmed in Allanak. Also the game would recognize their element in HOK, not just in game, and would give them a single sentence giving directions from the Gaj to their temple (since someone who was already gemmed, would know by now where their temple is). Example:

>buy #4

>You are about to buy a gem. You understand your character is allowed to work on his/her magick within
his/her temple. The temples are semi-safe constructs within the elementalist quarter, where mages are segregated
by their element. However, there is a covered plaza in the northwest corner, in which the public is allowed to
congregate. You are likely to find other mages there, socializing and working on non-magick tasks in each
others' company. While there are natural clashes of elements, such as vivadu (water) and krath (fire), gemmed
mages have learned throughout the kings' ages to tolerate each other and to some extent, work together to do
the Highlords' bidding through the commands of His templarate.

>Do "discuss" with the various NPCs in the entries of each temple you can access, to see if they have any
tips for you.  As you come with only your starting six spells at the lowest power, it can be assumed you have
only recently begun attempting to access your spells, and therefore are not practiced in them even if your
character has been educated on their use.

>You may find the following help files useful: magick power reach mood sphere. In addition, you can
access your specific spell helpfiles as they show up on your skills list; remember to preface the spell name
with the word "spell."

help spell magick missile help spell banhammer of doom


>From the Gaj, turn east til the crossroads. Up the main road, Vivadu's Way. Then go until you reach
the green-haired mischief, turn right, then left, then up the hill to grandmother's house. Your temple
is in the basement.

>The towheaded cerulean-eyed toddler throws you a dull black gem from her mother's hip.