Magickers and Their Role and Opportunities

[wizturbo]

Why doesn't everyone just do what Oash does?

That's one of my main beefs with the status quo.  Is House Oash the ONLY organization that see's the value in magickers?  Are the rest of them too stupid, or too scared to utilize magick?  That seems really unlikely to me.

Truth.
I never understood why every other House in the Known world would dig their own eyeballs out with shame before hiring magickers, but Oash is allowed to do it with seemingly ZERO negative backlash to their public positioning within the city.

The answer, I think, is that every other House in the Known World wouldn't dig out their own eyeballs.  Some of them would see the value, and they use magickers either overtly or subtlety.  House Oash just happens to have roles open to PCs, and are the largest noble house to hire them.  Let's put it this way, using a single example...  Do you think that every noble House except Oash wouldn't have a Vivaduan?  A magicker who can provide water, and provide unparalleled healing.  To have even a single one would be massive advantage over any House that doesn't.  Is House Oash the only one to realize this?  That'd be like only one wealthy family in the world using modern medical technology, because the rest of the world is too scared and would rather use leeches. 

But keep in mind, House Oash doesn't have hundreds and hundreds of Gemmed servants.  They have a relatively small number of magickers that they hire for specific purposes.  House Oash isn't the magicker house, it's just one of their little side projects.   I'd also like to point out some IC events where Oash very much did catch some backlash for their acceptance of magickers (their wine shop was burned to the ground), and they also have plenty of political backlash...it's just they're so powerful and influential that they're able to shrug off some of it.

[Armaddict]

Isn't that kind of answering your own question?  It isn't that Oash sees the use of them, it's that they find magickal things interesting and worth experimenting and investigating.  Backwards in time, they were the ones who usually had magickal plots to share with people, because they were the ones taking every bit of magickal information and looking deeper into it.  Even then, though...they'd find something that needed force, and the AoD and Tor would roll in demanding favors in return, and it worked out.  It was the reverse of what you're describing...-the mundane- would be the helicopter.  They'd come in, clear the thing, get their favor, and disappear, and the Oashi plot would move on.

So no, Oash doesn't have some sort of tremendous advantage over the other Houses as a result.  They all still need each other, Oash just happens to have some tools at their own disposal used for their own ends.

Truthfully, it just may have been the mages who suffered most when we said 'More PC run plots!', because we can't make magickal investigation plots as easily, unless we're given the ability to conjure them up at a whim.  "I have decided...that this magickal thing exists!  Investigate  it for me!"

But keep in mind, House Oash doesn't have hundreds and hundreds of Gemmed servants.  They have a relatively small number of magickers that they hire for specific purposes.  House Oash isn't the magicker house, it's just one of their little side projects.   I'd also like to point out some IC events where Oash very much did catch some backlash for their acceptance of magickers (their wine shop was burned to the ground), and they also have plenty of political backlash...it's just they're so powerful and influential that they're able to shrug off some of it.

This, in particular, is the answer to your own question.  There have been in-game riots over mages being prevalent.  There have been things destroyed.  There have been terrorist acts over it.  Noble houses, again, are there in public view.  Oash is an exception, they know it, and they are careful with it while still doing their own thing.

If the compromise was made as you're suggesting, my impression is that it would be even more limited in other places.  Sure, we want a water mage, but that fucker is -not- getting seen in public and causing us a shitstorm.  The biggest amount of 'give' for this is probably in merchant houses, since they've more traveling, more compounds, more of everything...and they'd likely be allowed, just like writing, so long as it was regulated.

Why doesn't everyone just do what Oash does?

I'd assume because while it may be your inclination to see it as too useful to not use, the game has clearly stated that such is -not- the common sense of Zalanthas.  Most people are not 'curious about how it works', and thus don't build a little experiment out of them that resulted in them having a small standing group of mages.

[LauraMars]

House Oash isn't the magicker house, it's just one of their little side projects.   I'd also like to point out some IC events where Oash very much did catch some backlash for their acceptance of magickers (their wine shop was burned to the ground), and they also have plenty of political backlash...it's just they're so powerful and influential that they're able to shrug off some of it.

Maybe the documentation states that House Oash isn't supposed to be "the magicker house" - but it is the magicker house.  It is.  House Oash is literally the only clan mages can join, barring exceptional circumstances in the AoD.  That makes it "the magicker house" on every level that matters.

And that's a point a couple of other people have made in this thread already, which is the disparity of House Oash's place in society and its purported IC power.  It doesn't add up.  Why is House Oash so influential and powerful, again?  Why are they located in the top tier of Houses alongside Borsail and Valika?  It isn't really clear.  Is it because they sell wine?  Is Oash wine that profitable and important to Allanak that it can be compared to the key Allanaki infrastructures of slavery and money?  Is it because House Oash is supposed to be the shady and sinister one(*strokes goatee*)?  Is it because they hire mages?*  Oh wait - right. The magicker thing is a side project.

It boggles my mind that House Oash is allowed to hire mage PCs for its "side thing" when most of the other noble houses can't even hire mundane pcs for their "main things".  My hunch is that this is because Oash's "main thing" isn't actually all that fleshed out OOCly** and if Oash were to close its doors to mage PCs tomorrow, there wouldn't be anything for Oash nobles to do and no roles in Oash for commoners to fill other than the standard Aide > Senior Aide > Advisor career path.  Which wouldn't be that bad, in my opinion - it's more or less the only commoner role the other Houses have available.

If mages are awful, and meant to be shunned by society's elite, then Oash doesn't get nearly enough flak for working so closely with mages that they literally dress them in livery and let them live in their barracks with their mundane servants. If mages are NOT awful, and are not meant to be so shunned by society's elite, then that needs to be communicated to the playerbase.  I've seen PC nobles from other Houses experience a shitload of consequences though, both ICly and OOCly, for being interested in and researching magick, so I very much doubt it.

Now, I'm not saying that I'd prefer it if mages were more accepted in society.  If they're shunned, great, I like that role for mages.  It's a good fit for our game, and I have no complaints about sidelined, marginalized mages.  I just wish House Oash actually had to experience the same reality as the rest of the city where magick is concerned.

*These questions are rhetorical to a large extent - I have read the House Oash documentation and am familiar with their backstory.  

**Yes, I know they had their PC guard unit back in the day, but so did all the noble houses, and sadly, that's no longer a role that exists in any capacity right now.

[Desertman]

House Oash isn't the magicker house, it's just one of their little side projects.   I'd also like to point out some IC events where Oash very much did catch some backlash for their acceptance of magickers (their wine shop was burned to the ground), and they also have plenty of political backlash...it's just they're so powerful and influential that they're able to shrug off some of it.

Maybe the documentation states that House Oash isn't supposed to be "the magicker house" - but it is the magicker house.  It is.  House Oash is literally the only clan mages can join, barring exceptional circumstances in the AoD.  That makes it "the magicker house" on every level that matters.

And that's a point a couple of other people have made in this thread already, which is the disparity of House Oash's place in society and its purported IC power.  It doesn't add up.  Why is House Oash so influential and powerful, again?  Why are they located in the top tier of Houses alongside Borsail and Valika?  It isn't really clear.  Is it because they sell wine?  Is Oash wine that profitable and important to Allanak that it can be compared to the key Allanaki infrastructures of slavery and money?  Is it because House Oash is supposed to be the shady and sinister one(*strokes goatee*)?  Is it because they hire mages?*  Oh wait - right. The magicker thing is a side project.

It boggles my mind that House Oash is allowed to hire mage PCs for its "side thing" when most of the other noble houses can't even hire mundane pcs for their "main things".  My hunch is that this is because Oash's "main thing" isn't actually all that fleshed out OOCly** and if Oash were to close its doors to mage PCs tomorrow, there wouldn't be anything for Oash nobles to do and no roles in Oash for commoners to fill other than the standard Aide > Senior Aide > Advisor career path.  Which wouldn't be that bad, in my opinion - it's more or less the only commoner role the other Houses have available.

If mages are awful, and meant to be shunned by society's elite, then Oash doesn't get nearly enough flak for working so closely with mages that they literally dress them in livery and let them live in their barracks with their mundane servants. If mages are NOT awful, and are not meant to be so shunned by society's elite, then that needs to be communicated to the playerbase.  I've seen PC nobles from other Houses experience a shitload of consequences though, both ICly and OOCly, for being interested in and researching magick, so I very much doubt it.

Now, I'm not saying that I'd prefer it if mages were more accepted in society.  If they're shunned, great, I like that role for mages.  It's a good fit for our game, and I have no complaints about sidelined, marginalized mages.  I just wish House Oash actually had to experience the same reality as the rest of the city where magick is concerned.

*These questions are rhetorical to a large extent - I have read the House Oash documentation and am familiar with their backstory.  

**Yes, I know they had their PC guard unit back in the day, but so did all the noble houses, and sadly, that's no longer a role that exists in any capacity right now.

+1

Even if it's not supposed to be "The magicker House.", it is in reality for most people thought of as that and only that. Myself included.

When I think Tor, I think elite badass mundane combat fighters and leaders.

When I think AOD I think soldiers.

When I think Borsail I think hoity snooty nobles.

When I think Fale I think zany hijinks and comedy.

When I think Byn I think gritty mercenaries and scumbags.

When I think Oash...the ONLY thing I ever think is..."The magicker House.". Nobody is out there thinking, "Oh, the wine House.", because the only thing they ever are known for is their magicker stuff when it comes to the players.

In theory they probably aren't "supposed" to be "The magicker House.", but in practice, they are.

[Centurion]

+2

[Jihelu]

One of my ic interactions about Oash were basically as follows.
"So Oash is the wine house, what else do they do?"

"Thats basically it"
"Also magic"

Thats all they are.
Which is more exciting.
Magic.
Or wine.

[Erythil]

Clearly, the answer should be 'magic wine.'

The only problem is finding a customer...

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I think magickers should be entitled to one of a series of 'past-life' subguilds, a few skills they would have from what they did before.

1. Bendune and forage food (magickers never get to have both of these at once, which doesn't make sense)
2. master cooking (no extended subguild required)
3. knife-making, toolmaking and clayworking
maybe some more

[Rokal]

I think magickers should be entitled to one of a series of 'past-life' subguilds, a few skills they would have from what they did before.

1. Bendune and forage food (magickers never get to have both of these at once, which doesn't make sense)
2. master cooking (no extended subguild required)
3. knife-making, toolmaking and clayworking
maybe some more

This would be cool.

[Lizzie]

I think magickers should be entitled to one of a series of 'past-life' subguilds, a few skills they would have from what they did before.

1. Bendune and forage food (magickers never get to have both of these at once, which doesn't make sense)
2. master cooking (no extended subguild required)
3. knife-making, toolmaking and clayworking
maybe some more

Yeah I suggested that all mage main-guilds should come with the player's choice of just a small list of craft skills. Any one, just so they'd have something to do with their time. I realize they all get something eventually but not all of them make it that long. The path there can also be boring and - depending on the mage - unprofitable. A choice of craft skills that don't ever get to mastery or even necessarily advanced. Just a little something as a "hobby" so you don't have to use a whole subguild just so you have something codedly productive to do besides spam-cast all day.

[wizturbo]

Yeah I suggested that all mage main-guilds should come with the player's choice of just a small list of craft skills. Any one, just so they'd have something to do with their time. I realize they all get something eventually but not all of them make it that long. The path there can also be boring and - depending on the mage - unprofitable. A choice of craft skills that don't ever get to mastery or even necessarily advanced. Just a little something as a "hobby" so you don't have to use a whole subguild just so you have something codedly productive to do besides spam-cast all day.

Why not just make most craft skills available to all characters at a low cap?  Maybe, if possible, make it so they progress very slowly in the craft if they don't get it from their guild or subguild, or, it takes a long time to "branch" and have it added to your skill list, kind of like a language?

[Lizzie]

Yeah I suggested that all mage main-guilds should come with the player's choice of just a small list of craft skills. Any one, just so they'd have something to do with their time. I realize they all get something eventually but not all of them make it that long. The path there can also be boring and - depending on the mage - unprofitable. A choice of craft skills that don't ever get to mastery or even necessarily advanced. Just a little something as a "hobby" so you don't have to use a whole subguild just so you have something codedly productive to do besides spam-cast all day.

Why not just make most craft skills available to all characters at a low cap?  Maybe, if possible, make it so they progress very slowly in the craft if they don't get it from their guild or subguild, or, it takes a long time to "branch" and have it added to your skill list, kind of like a language?

Because it'll revert to nothing more than a race to see who can get to the NPC first with their 5 of each 4-sid chpped bone dagger, 5 grey feather rings for 3 sids, five etc. etc. Your suggestion basically eliminates any reason for those crafting skills to inspire people to interact with each other. If everyone can do XYZ then no one will need anyone to do XYZ for them. If only some can do X, some can do Y, a couple can do Z, then everyone will have an -opportunity- to want to interact with each other.

The point of this is to allow the mages a minor coded hobby that is similar to the coded hobbies that come with every other class right out of the box. The benefits to this are many, the detriments are non-existent. Remember - most of the "profession" guilds start with at least one "crafting" skill in addition to cooking. Except mages. Zero mage main guilds come with any crafting skill right out of the box. I'm also suggesting only certain of the crafting skills - nothing that turns them into serious money-makers - they'd have to pick one of the usual subguilds for that. You don't need to be a master clothworker to get rich from clothworking. So no, they shouldn't have that. Toolmaking. Dying. Fletching. Clayworking. Stoneworking. Featherworking. Only ONE of them - their choice of which one - capped at a mid-level Journeyman. So they have something to DO, that isn't a coded waste of time and will demonstrate that - without any subguild at all, they are more than simply the sum of their spell list.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

Just because realistically everyone CAN bead a bracelet, doesn't mean they WILL, and giving them the ability to do so in-game assures that most WILL. So we got to not have that. You know, basically what Lizzie said.

Just for kicks I also like crafting being this sort of precious skill that ignorance and illiteracy has limited to the hands of a few. It gives my mundane non-combatants something in which to be of value.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

Maybe instead of increasing the skills witches can have, there should just be more to _do_ in the game. Games, like I suggested in the other thread, especially ones that can be played when you're alone.

[LauraMars]

I think magickers should be entitled to one of a series of 'past-life' subguilds, a few skills they would have from what they did before.

1. Bendune and forage food (magickers never get to have both of these at once, which doesn't make sense)

If you choose a "nomadic" origin in chargen you'll be able to speak bendune.  You can then also take one of the subguilds/extended subguilds that let you forage food.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

Oh, dur.

[wizturbo]

I don't think this is true.  Everyone CAN learn bendune, how many actually do?  The same could be true for feather crafting or whatever.

[Dresan]

I am usually biased against magickers. That said promoting interactions both positive and negative is worthwhile.

With that in mind, any additions to them that would encourage players to play them as people who happen to be magickers, as opposed to 'creepy being from another dimension that talk only to themselves and lives isolated in a cave' is alright with me. Its really why I liked the sorcerer changes, since i felt it promoted them being part of organizations or society, while still being the scum of the known.

I like lizzie's suggestion, though I don't know if that would open more role opportunities. Still anything that might allow them to be more useful to people without completely resorting to magick might open up some RP opportunities. Maybe?.  I think the staff have already commented, that its okay to work with magickers, so long as its RPed properly, you are working with something that might give you cancer.  

I was thinking about suggesting this for merchants, but I think it might be beneficial for magickers. Given the fact that magickers are already OP, I don't think this idea would make a huge difference but i totally acknowledge that others might know best. My idea would be to give them one weapon skill capped at apprentice, and maybe allow them better combat skills.  The reason i suggest this is because then magickers could pick mercenary sub-guild, and join things like the byn, or be soldier in AoD or kurac. It would open up some nice opportunities for non-gemmers, and who knows, it might open up some more interesting RP opportunties later on for them if they do get found out. I always thought the idea of working with someone I liked and enjoyed working with, only to find out they were a magicker later would be neat.

Before anyone says extended sub-guilds like aggressor, they might help but i feel it would still be a fustrating experience since you'd lack so many other utility skills. I gotta say, extended sub-guilds are amazing on rangers who have tons of other important skills, but they can still a very tough choice for most other guilds depending on what you want to do but I'm derailing now.

I dunno though, these are just some late night random thoughts on this subject.  

[Refugee]

I think magickers should be entitled to one of a series of 'past-life' subguilds, a few skills they would have from what they did before.

1. Bendune and forage food (magickers never get to have both of these at once, which doesn't make sense)
2. master cooking (no extended subguild required)
3. knife-making, toolmaking and clayworking
maybe some more

When thinking about playing my first magicker, I've wrestled with this, because I feel they'd have had a whole life going on that was perfectly viable (since I'm not interested in playing children).  I think this would be great.

This would be cool.

[nauta]

So, here are some thoughts on the gemmed experience.  I guess my basic thesis here is that one thing we might do that might get some bang for our buck is to flesh out some of the documentation about gemmed life; a lot of what is there is vague, intentionally so, allowing gemmed to sort of create their own culture, but this at the same time leaves things fairly nebulous.  (I'm motivated here by Desertman's analogy with the desert elves, where the culture and spiritual practices are spelled out in detail in the documentation).  ETA: Having documentation on various things is a nice hook for me at least to explore solo RP, and it might be a way to generate interesting RP within the gemmed Quarter itself.

In particular:

1. What is temple life like?  There are some NPCs in the temple, but they don't do anything.  IG there was some debate about whether there were 'elders' in the temple, or a structure.  An example (or some examples) of regular gemmed doing their daily temple routines would be helpful.

2. What is magical life like?  The help files for magickers are rich with allusions to things -- there's even a reference to God in one of them -- but there isn't much on what it's like to actually cast and be magickal with this whole 'mana' thing: how does it feel?  what does it feel like to use the words?  what does it feel like to learn a new spell?  There are some threads dedicated to the subject on the gdb, but it might be helpful to pull this together.  (Leaving it so vague means that the various PCs sort of contradict each other on some core issues.)

3. What is life like in the Quarter?  There are laws, but you won't discover those except IG (if you are lucky).  A brief precise of the laws, or perhaps a sample of the templar's speech that you get when you get a gem, would be helpful.  (Again, leaving it vague means that various PCs sort of contradict each other on some basic laws.)

4. What about family life?  Are there families in the gemmed quarter?  Do gemmed couples have gemmed babies?  What happens to those babies?  Do some gemmed still keep their mundane families in the quarter?  Do gemmed live outside the quarter with their mundane families?

5. What is life like vis-a-vis the templarate and the Arm of the Dragon?  What roles are even available there?  Are you required to heed the call of the templarate or are you more of a mercenary?

6. What about gemmed-gemmed relationships?  This is particularly nebulous, if I recall -- there's hints in the documentation that some gemmed types dislike others, but if I recall it only shows up in some helpfiles and not others.

7. A lot of times the echoes that a spell gives and the documentation contradict each other.  Sometimes the echo suggests a visible effect, when it is invisible, and vice versa.  (That's just a matter of bugging and fixing, so probably the easiest on the list.)

8. What is the history of the Quarter?  Who made it, the gemmed or the templarate?  What happened during that CAM stuff people talk about on the gdb?  What about that whole temple burning stuff and the rebuilding stuff?  As far as I can tell there's just a very small blurb about it on the history page, which isn't quite enough to get into the feel of what the history of the place is.

I understand that there's a tension between 'too much documentation' and 'too little documentation', and I'm not going to say it's an easy task to find that balance.  

A few practical things that might help:

a.  I really liked a suggestion a while ago: implement a gemmed clan with a gemmed board for discussion of various aspects of roleplay.  Perhaps you could do this on a temple-by-temple basis (a Vivaduan board, a Rukkian board, etc.), where people can discuss things like: what does it feel like to cast [spell]?  What is temple life like here?  Etc.

b. A leadership position for the non-Oashi gemmed, perhaps associated with the AoD/Templarate, as suggested above.  One way to 'pass on' culture (and resolve conflicting opinions on things like the laws or the history or how it feels to cast) is to have a leader PC.  (Compare with Oash, where there is a hierarchy of gemmed, and you can seek out advice on lore and magic from the higher ups.)

[Marauder Moe]

For a lot of that stuff, I feel you can and should find out IG.

I do agree with needing more clarification in regards to the law, though.  I've been surprised a lot by what does and doesn't trigger crimcode in the quarter.

[nauta]

For a lot of that stuff, I feel you can and should find out IG.

I guess I disagree: for a lot of that stuff you can't find out IG, you should find out through documentation.  (PCs often are exceptions to the rule, especially in the gemmed case.)

[Marauder Moe]

I'm not sure how that's a disagreement.

[nauta]

I'm not sure how that's a disagreement.

You said: For a lot of that stuff, you can find out IG.
I said: For a lot of that stuff, you can't find out IG.

My thought is to make answers to that available to gemmed-only documentation (maybe flesh out the help file / add a new one on gemmed life or whatever).

[Marauder Moe]

Ah, your comma threw me off.

I guess we just have to disagree, then.  Further discussion on my part is just going to make me sound like a crotchety old veteran and probably make you more frustrated.  Cheers and good luck.