Magickers and Their Role and Opportunities

[Agent_137]

#1 I think the official implication that they should be used as tools is the gem around their neck. If a gemmer actually did want to be used by the templars, presumably they'd be making themselves available and known anyways.

I could maybe see a forum that included gemmer playtimes making things easier. It would be nice, as a gememr, to know when other people are around. I'm not sure that including them as AoD clan is best for this, though. That would give them access to a lot of stuff that's primarily for soldiers to know (maybe information related to rumors only soldiers should know, training schedules, whatever).

My other question is: What are gemmed AoD members (who aren't soldiers) doing when they're not in use? I mean, if they're not soldiers, presumably they're not sparring. I can't imagine that they would have access to the recruit compound--Certainly not to the main soldier barracks.

I don't know, it seems sort of like just making them what they are now, but with (ICly) a cloak and (OOCly) forum access.


#2 I do mean CAM, yes. The problem with it was that gemmers monopolized all of the plots, being used even when mundanes could have. They also went around covered in silks that might put some nobles to shame. There were a lot of gemmed and non-gemmed relationships happening, as well. In essence, a lot of the social stigma broke down. They weren't viewed as they should be by docs.


Well, this presumes that Tor would also be open to normal soldiers. And... Yes, Oash still hires the gemmed.

Which brings me to my next point--Doesn't having Oash being the only official hiring spot for gemmed create more plots and interaction? If Tor wants to hire mages to do something, they can do it on the side (perhaps incurring Oashi ire) or they have to engage in political relations with Oash to use gemmed. Oash's main resource and political influence is gemmed. This can make for interesting interactions and lead to more plots.



That would be a lot of different options for gemmed, and I'm not sure why we'd need three clans all open to them. How many mages would that put in a clan at any given time?

It just strikes me as a dubious thing to bring up.  It sounds like some gemmed weren't roleplaying correctly, and player complaints should have been filed.  Easy-peasy.

Nauta is correct. That had nothing to do with the Council as an organization. I was there in CAM at the "peak". Most of the members were not in silks hobnobbing publicly and ICly were not happy with the attention caused by that behavior.

I'm not sure player complaints would have helped since it's pretty easy to make an IC case for wearing silks and wanting to be accepted by society. But the backlash was real ICly and balance was restored. I'd go into detail but it's probably better as a player submission, and I'm not sure how much of the shutdown was immortals vs PCs. I like to think it was all PC motivated.

And imo the plots were focused on magick because that was the "end times." I'm glad were past that.

I'm not suggesting 3 different clans for mages. I'm suggesting that AoD have some sort of official capacity for the gemmed that are interested. Not all gemmed.  Oash hiring mages is baked into the docs anyway, and the unofficial/secret org could be left purely player run.

Are you arguing for or against having something in AoD for gemmers? Or are you supportive of that but want to refine it?

I'd say they don't even get cloaks.  And even forum access cuold be a sub-forum that just the mages+sergeants+templars have access to.

BLEH. This is the longest post i've written in years. What's the goal here, Taven?  Come up with a polished suggestion to hand to staff to better involve bored gemmers in mundane driven plots?


P.S.

3 posts were posted while i typed, but i didn't read them so I hope this is still a relevant reply.

[Marauder Moe]

Eh.  I'm not sure that's true about Tor virtually hiring mages.  It was certainly true once, but there were a lot of high-level (senate) politics regarding mages and their status within society going on and is most certainly could have changed ICly as well as OOCly.  Internal clan docs could also easily be that far out of date.

[Taven]

Are you arguing for or against having something in AoD for gemmers? Or are you supportive of that but want to refine it?

I'd say they don't even get cloaks.  And even forum access cuold be a sub-forum that just the mages+sergeants+templars have access to.

So other then a forum that allows mages to have access, what are you advocating with them being a non-soldier part of the AoD? How would it manifest ICly?

I would support a limited-access forum (templars and mages only, I'm not keen on Sargeants) for the sole purpose of sharing playtimes. I don't think it should be just "AoD Affiliated" PCs, though. Why not just have it include all gemmed (including Oashi)? This would be a very useful tool for actually allowing players to better encounter each other ICly. I don't know how I'd feel about a rumor thread here, but it might be okay too... The templars being on this forum would represent that they have an influence and keep an eye on any mages. So anything more "secret" would have to be discussed ICly.

What's the goal here? Come up with a polished suggestion to hand to staff to better involve bored gemmers in mundane driven plots?

The goal is to give gemmed more plot opportunities. There's two groups of thought. There's those who want more clanned roles to encourage more gemmer plot involvement (Wizturbo is a big advocate), and those who worry more clanned roles will change the social status of the gemmer, or that they don't fit the game setting (generally a view held by yours truly). There's a lot of people here with different points in between, too.

[Agent_137]

Ok, sounds like we're all in agreement that at the very least *all* gemmed should have an OCC board that includes the templars to help coordinate playtimes and mutual RPTs.

That would reduce the need for any official anything between AoD and gemmed. It's not going to be as cool in my opinion as an official role would be, but it's less effort for the staff and less contentious. It's the low hanging fruit.

Some of my top memories as a gemmed were working with AoD, terrifying the soldiers but also being terrifyingly effective. That's big piece of what separates AoD from the Tuluk. Willingness to use mages as tools. They should be used often, but not so much the mystery and fear fades from the soldiers they work with.

[Taven]

That would reduce the need for any official anything between AoD and gemmed. It's not going to be as cool in my opinion as an official role would be, but it's less effort for the staff and less contentious. It's the low hanging fruit.

I'm a little confused as to what you want the official role to be, if there was one. What IC changes or benefits do you see happening that are different from what the gemmed do/have now? I think you said you didn't even want them to have a cloak, and I'm just not really sure what you are wanting, ICly.

[Agent_137]

I'm a little confused as to what you want the official role to be, if there was one. What IC changes or benefits do you see happening that are different from what the gemmed do/have now? I think you said you didn't even want them to have a cloak, and I'm just not really sure what you are wanting, ICly.

I don't have it well defined in my head. I'm not keeping something from you. I just really enjoyed interacting with the AoD so anything that makes that easier OOCly and ICly (to an extent) would be positive for some portion of the gemmers.

I'll riff on it a bit because you've asked twice.

Goals:

• More Interaction between AoD and Gemmed - more terrified privates and entertained mages and more templars wielding all tools at their disposal brutally effectively.
• Potential conlfict between AoD gemmed and Oash gemmed and unaffiliated gemmed
• Satisfy the 39% of users who voted for AoD in your poll (and if you take Tor of the table, some portion of that 28%)

Features:

• No cloaks, maybe a small patch or something subtle so that AoD insiders would recognize them but the general populace wouldn't.
• Some sort of working relationship with the sergeants that gets earned over time, so they don't always need a templar to take the gemmed out of the stable.
• Shared clan board for sergeants, lieutenants, templars, and the AoD gemmed to plan ass-kicking missions. No Oashi gemmers allowed!
• A little bit of new documentation that clarifies appropriate usage of AoD gemmers

Assumptions:

• this level of interaction isn't already taking place
• AoD sergeants are few in number, like 1-2 at a time
• there's not already documentation like i described in place.
• Gemmers who don't want to hang w/ the militia or oash would be left to their own devices (as they are now).

Risks:

• I've never played in the arm of the dragon so i have little understanding how it works on the inside
• I haven't played this game hardly at all for 3+ years so everything I say could be wildly out of touch

All that said, I'm a big fan of taking the low hanging fruit of a Templar/All-Gemmers OOC board now and figuring the rest out later.

[Eyeball]

This 'silk' thing comes up a lot.  I mean, didn't -everyone- agree that commoner gemmed wearing silks was immersion-breaking and seriously documentation breaking, even during the days of CAM, that is, even when gemmed were included in things on an OOC level?  So too with gemmed-mundane relationships: regardless of whether or not CAM exists, gemmed-mundane relations are a no-no.

It just strikes me as a dubious thing to bring up.  It sounds like some gemmed weren't roleplaying correctly, and player complaints should have been filed.  Easy-peasy.

I'm not so sure it was inappropriate in the context. Yes, commoners and nobles alike would be pissed off by it, but at that time the Gemmed had the direct patronage of a Templar of the Red, the Great Lord Samos. Once Samos was gone from the scene, the silks and the proud attitudes disappeared fairly quickly. What would people say today if some Oashi Magus was to don a few silks? Probably not too much.

[Eyeball]

I always figured that a gemmed auxiliary to the AoD could function like this:

1. The gemmed would only be given the recruit level, they'd never become full soldiers with authority over commoners or crimcode privileges.

2. They'd be allowed to enter the usual training compound only on invitation by a soldier. And never the barracks. This would help soldiers find someone to train with during slow periods too.

3. There would be no use of magick whatsoever except on the explicit orders of a Templar or officer (Sergeant and above), either while training or when on expeditions outside the gates. Excepting in their temples.

4. They'd wear a jade cross patch or some other token but no more.

5. They'd be encouraged to talk to each other about working effectively as a team. One of the problems in past RPTs is that gemmed are sort of thrown together in various states and stages and they've never worked together with each other before. Surely the Templarate would like more efficiency than that.

[Eyeball]

It doesn't seem obvious to me that giving gemmed some access to plots and tasks and a structure would entail that gemmed players would suddenly start breaking the docs.

Why does everyone think that gemmed have no access to plots now? Maybe I'm missing something. But if someone wants to hire your gemmed, unaffiliated mage... They can. If it's not socially appropriate for them to, they'll be frowned at.

However, taking a gemmed and saying "we are this organization" and giving them a place in society that could be construed as respected--This is what throws the social balance out of whack. If a gemmer is a member of a House, they have a lot more status then one who does not. An organization behind you gives you social status and power. When you have that, PCs react differently. I'm not saying it's any one group's fault, it's just how it works.


I like this post, so I am going to quote it (formatting mine):

Yes. The gemmed are trapped and marginalized. Physically. Socially. Politically. That's their role within the culture of the Allanaki city state.

They are physically trapped by the gems they are forced to wear.

They are socially trapped by the population's distrust of magic.

They are politically trapped by the design of the government that bars them by law from holding any position of power or authority.

This is what you sign up for when you elect to play a gemmed mage in Allanak. It's the price you pay for the safety you receive. The mages who refuse to be bound in such a fashion either hide their gift or go rouge. It's a big part of our game's setting.

*shrug* So you basically just don't want anything to change.

People can hire mages, but do they? Very rarely from what I can tell and have experienced. They don't want the social stigma in game and they don't want to be labeled as twinks OOCly. And as someone pointed out, there's no intermediary they can go to. They ICly aren't supposed to know what mages can do and they'd have to poke around temples and hobnob with mages to find anyone. I think the law even says commoners should not enter the Temple Quarter. And as someone else pointed out, even when they're hired, they're helicoptered in and out of plots. They perform their use and they leave. So without an official endorsment, nothing will change.

[wizturbo]

I think the most significant vote was that 70% of the survey said they'd like to see Gemmed with more roles.  What roles those are, honestly, I'm agnostic towards.  Let the staff decide...the AOD branch one was the most popular on the survey, so it's a good place to consider...but other options are good too.  Just scratch the itch, is all I think we need to do.

[Armaddict]

I think the most significant vote was that 70% of the survey said they'd like to see Gemmed with more roles.  What roles those are, honestly, I'm agnostic towards.  Let the staff decide...the AOD branch one was the most popular on the survey, so it's a good place to consider...but other options are good too.  Just scratch the itch, is all I think we need to do.

I think that's skewed by a perception that gemmed=mages.

Ungemmed, as a role, is as unlimited as the mundane.

[wizturbo]

The poll said Gemmed pretty clearly, but you might be right, some people might not have made that connection?

[bardlyone]

I think the most significant vote was that 70% of the survey said they'd like to see Gemmed with more roles.  What roles those are, honestly, I'm agnostic towards.  Let the staff decide...the AOD branch one was the most popular on the survey, so it's a good place to consider...but other options are good too.  Just scratch the itch, is all I think we need to do.

I think that's skewed by a perception that gemmed=mages.

Ungemmed, as a role, is as unlimited as the mundane.

A fair and valid point. After all, if you don't want to be marginalized, you can always choose not to wear the target on your neck.

Maybe after enough of a climb in numbers of rogues and diminishment in gemmed numbers, it will motivate the people who get the benefits of having the gemmed work for them to decide that maybe the demands of the gemmed are keeping people from submitting to it. Like pushing that change IC through protesting/refusing the gem, because you don't WANT to be marginalized, identified, and to lose all your employment opportunities except whatever freaky thing mages do for Oash. It would take a consistent effort on the part of players who typically play gemmed to do so, though, or else gemmed numbers won't drop, rogue numbers won't swell, and the 2-3 people who do do something will just be shortlived extra antagonists.

[Agent_137]

It sounds like you just suggested boring players until.they quit the role in such numbers that mundanes notice and miss them.

Gemmed are part of the allanak flavor. They need to be visible just enough to make folks uncomfortable and templars badass. And at the end of the day this is a game, right? Players should be having fun.

At least an ooc board for templars and gemmed would go a long way to getting them involved appropriately.  It's a free low effort experiment. If it doesn't get used then it can be shut down.

[nauta]

It doesn't seem obvious to me that giving gemmed some access to plots and tasks and a structure would entail that gemmed players would suddenly start breaking the docs.

Why does everyone think that gemmed have no access to plots now?

Experience, which I can't talk about here.  I also think there was a perfect storm of staff and PCs that created the current environment.

For me, the question is: Should they have access to plots?  

I'm mostly inclined to say: 'no'.  If you want to play with the awesome magick system in Armageddon, roll up a rogue or a secret mage.  Once you manifest or gem, you'll be basically in a flavour role, like a slave PC, so set your expectations accordingly.

[Beethoven]

EDIT: Quoted instead of modified myself. Whoops!

[Beethoven]

I actually very much enjoy the role of gemmed magicker, whether they're involved in plots or not. I usually find stuff to do that I enjoy, but that's probably because I'm a serial flavor role player. Most people don't like playing what I play, and it bores them to death. And if people are bored playing gemmed magickers, and it seems many are, that's a problem. Many players new to the magick system go gemmed because they're overwhelmed by the magick system and want a community of mages to fall back on, so they're not left casting in the wastes and trying to figure out what the hell a component is. The trade-off for that sort of support should not be being bored to death. And the answer to their being bored to death shouldn't be "suck it up; you know what you signed up for."

I get it. Nobody wants the gemmed to overwhelm plots or break the docs or overstep their social status. They're nowhere near that right now, and I think we have some comfortable room to shift a little in the direction of allowing gemmed more built-in stuff to do on a regular basis. I totally agree with those who say Allanak needs to be separated from Tuluk in this way. Allanak, and the AoD, make use of magickers, and that's exactly what makes Tulukis uncomfortable. They're not a magick-loving society, but they employ them to meet their ends. They don't just cloister them in their own quarter and tell them to go practice their spells and then ignore them forever (or nearly so.)

I honestly don't even care if they get clanned status in the AoD, although it'd be interesting if some did. I'd just like to see more expectation that they're going to get used as the tools they are.

[nauta]

This 'silk' thing comes up a lot.  I mean, didn't -everyone- agree that commoner gemmed wearing silks was immersion-breaking and seriously documentation breaking, even during the days of CAM, that is, even when gemmed were included in things on an OOC level?  So too with gemmed-mundane relationships: regardless of whether or not CAM exists, gemmed-mundane relations are a no-no.

It just strikes me as a dubious thing to bring up.  It sounds like some gemmed weren't roleplaying correctly, and player complaints should have been filed.  Easy-peasy.

I'm not so sure it was inappropriate in the context. Yes, commoners and nobles alike would be pissed off by it, but at that time the Gemmed had the direct patronage of a Templar of the Red, the Great Lord Samos. Once Samos was gone from the scene, the silks and the proud attitudes disappeared fairly quickly. What would people say today if some Oashi Magus was to don a few silks? Probably not too much.

That's a helpful explanation.  Things are quite different nowadays, for sure, in terms of the culture.  Was Samos a PC?  There is still a red robe in charge of the gemmed quarter, if I understand things correctly.

Also, nota bene: there's still a silk robe on sale at the clothier in the gemmed quarter for a really reasonable price, not to mention all that amazing jewelry.  I assume this was an oversight.

[Bast]

This 'silk' thing comes up a lot.  I mean, didn't -everyone- agree that commoner gemmed wearing silks was immersion-breaking and seriously documentation breaking, even during the days of CAM, that is, even when gemmed were included in things on an OOC level?  So too with gemmed-mundane relationships: regardless of whether or not CAM exists, gemmed-mundane relations are a no-no.

It just strikes me as a dubious thing to bring up.  It sounds like some gemmed weren't roleplaying correctly, and player complaints should have been filed.  Easy-peasy.

I'm not so sure it was inappropriate in the context. Yes, commoners and nobles alike would be pissed off by it, but at that time the Gemmed had the direct patronage of a Templar of the Red, the Great Lord Samos. Once Samos was gone from the scene, the silks and the proud attitudes disappeared fairly quickly. What would people say today if some Oashi Magus was to don a few silks? Probably not too much.

That's a helpful explanation.  Things are quite different nowadays, for sure, in terms of the culture.  Was Samos a PC?  There is still a red robe in charge of the gemmed quarter, if I understand things correctly.

Also, nota bene: there's still a silk robe on sale at the clothier in the gemmed quarter for a really reasonable price, not to mention all that amazing jewelry.  I assume this was an oversight.

Samos was a Pc. He was the best Templar I've ever played with.  (see my quote) I haven't actually played a gemmed since the one I had while he was around died. I don't think Samos is likely to be alive anymore though He would be over 100 years old by now at least if he were.

[Lizzie]

A thought - since we're all about suggestions here:

What if all mage main-guilds came with novice listen as part of their regular skill tree, and could progress, without any specific subguild needed, to apprentice? Just so they could at least have a -chance- at eavesdropping on one line out of a whole hour's worth of conversation when they're stuck being their pariah selves on the ledge instead of at the bar with the AOD and Bynner who pushes them away


And...

What if all mage main-guilds came with their choice of any one craft at novice, and could progress, without any specific subguild needed, to apprentice? Even if that craft was limited to some of the less-profitable possibilities, like knife-making, toolmaking, and fletchery, featherworking, and dyeing. Or even if they couldn't ever get past novice without the corresponding subguild.

That's one thing I really miss when I play a non-crafting-subguild mage: a creative hobby for my character. I also always miss listen.

[Eyeball]

Was Samos a PC?  There is still a red robe in charge of the gemmed quarter, if I understand things correctly.

Samos was a great PC, one of the few who are actually remembered.

Also, nota bene: there's still a silk robe on sale at the clothier in the gemmed quarter for a really reasonable price, not to mention all that amazing jewelry.  I assume this was an oversight.

It's a leftover from different times, in the same way the proud temples were a leftover until the commoners burnt them down.

[Taven]

I don't have it well defined in my head. I'm not keeping something from you. I just really enjoyed interacting with the AoD so anything that makes that easier OOCly and ICly (to an extent) would be positive for some portion of the gemmers.

I'll riff on it a bit because you've asked twice.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Based on what you said, my summary for an AoD Gemmer position that you'd like to see as having these features:

• Some sort of identification, but not one intended to make them special or give them any sort of influence -- Merely for soldiers to recognize them
• A trust gained over time where they could be taken on patrols by Sergeants, without the company of a templar
• A shared clan boards for AoD gemmed, sergeants, lieutenants, templars
• Added documentation that would elaborate how AoD gemmed could be used and their role

Later on, Eyeball also makes a post where he outlines his ideal AoD gemmed participation, which I summarize as such:

• Gemmed would never be given status or authority, their authority would be compared to that of a recruit ("commoner with a patch")
• They could only spar with direct invitation of a soldier
• They would be forbidden the use of the barracks and gain no use of clan facilities other then the above
• They would be forbidden from using magick on patrols or otherwise (excepting in temples), without expressed orders of Sergeant and up
• Gemmed would be encouraged to speak to each other about working as a team

I like that you both are firm in establishing that you don't want the gemmed to have any sort of uniform that would make them special. I like that Eyeball is clear that they would still be outsiders (they would not be allowed barracks use). I also think that no use of magick except on orders is also practical.

My concerns are that I don't think anybody except a templar should generally be ordering magickers around. If gemmed are on a patrol, I don't think a Sergeant should allow them to use magick. I think a templar should be required to be present. I realize that doesn't match at all with your ideas, and would make requirements for gemmed doing things stricter. I also don't think that gemmed should be sparring with soldiers, even without magick. Finally, I think the use of a forum for ONLY officers, gemmers, and templars is sort of giving an OOC status to the gemmed that places them higher then your average soldier.

But, my opinions don't really matter, end of the day! It's up to staff on how they want to handle this. I appreciate you guys taking the time to outline your thoughts. At this point, I'm just going to agree to disagree with you.

All that said, I'm a big fan of taking the low hanging fruit of a Templar/All-Gemmers OOC board now and figuring the rest out later.

I remain in support of this. I think it would be a helpful tool for the gemmed, and I haven't heard anybody voice any objections/concerns about it. 

[Majikal]

A fair and valid point. After all, if you don't want to be marginalized, you can always choose not to wear the target on your neck.

Maybe after enough of a climb in numbers of rogues and diminishment in gemmed numbers, it will motivate the people who get the benefits of having the gemmed work for them to decide that maybe the demands of the gemmed are keeping people from submitting to it. Like pushing that change IC through protesting/refusing the gem, because you don't WANT to be marginalized, identified, and to lose all your employment opportunities except whatever freaky thing mages do for Oash. It would take a consistent effort on the part of players who typically play gemmed to do so, though, or else gemmed numbers won't drop, rogue numbers won't swell, and the 2-3 people who do do something will just be shortlived extra antagonists.

Join the Breed protest! Pushing through the change IC through protesting, because you don't WANT to be marginalized, identified, and to lose all your employment opportunities.

Join the dwarf rebellion! Pushing through the change ic that we aren't all single-minded focused creatures! That we should be allowed to join all the clans cause are stats are superior to humans! Because you don't WANT to be marginalized, identified, and to lose all of your employment oppurtunities!

Join the half-giant adventure! Cause super-smart HG raiders shouldn't be considered bad rp! Because we don't WANT to be marginalized, identified, and lose our ability to have HG sergeant and Lieutenants!

[bardlyone]

Rogue mages AREN'T considered bad RP, unlike super smart halfgiants. And half-elves come across as human, they usually DON'T suffer those things because of the fact that they look human. Which would make the decision of whether or not you want those things a very much IC decision. Again, unlike the dwarf thing. It is documented that the gem is a choice, you make it, whether or not to identify yourself for marking. And the dwarven focus is a thing inherent in all dwarves. So unless you want to make it so there just aren't rogue mages in the docs or in game at all... that is again, not remotely the same.

[Dresan]

I'd be okay with more mage opportunities in AOD or heck maybe even the byn in some limited fashion.


...so long as they have the same restrictions as recruits, and are forced into similar disciplinary schedules. I mean my mundane gets forced into those schedule whether they have the skills or not, it shouldn't be any different for mages. Just that they should have their own corner of the sparring room as for spells they can practice those on their off-time.

Yup, the same schedules and restrictions that keep me from wanting to play in those clans myself.  

Otherwise I think mages are fine, especially with staff commenting on how people can find ways to secretly approach mages for some magickal service with the right RP angle. Add some apartments to luirs, and they'd probably be much better plot wise then my indi ranger, who will probably never see a good plot before he dies to something silly.