Magickers and Their Role and Opportunities

[Beethoven]

The problem is when everyone plays like that, "plays to win". You can't win. You just don't "win" a game like Armageddon. You tell a story, and then you die (or store).

I agree. But playing a character like that doesn't mean you're playing to win. You're playing someone who plays to win. They might not even do a good job of it, but dammit, they'll try.

[Fujikoma]

When you're playing with (ahem, against) other players who play to win, sadly, in order to just live long enough to tell a decent story, your character may have to make some sacrifices along the way (not necessarily involving magickers). They can either learn this, or die. Or maybe it's just my personal experience. But this is the nature of the beast, in order to even stay about you find yourself in conflict, and therefor, competition with players who "play to win", and must adopt some skeezy tactics to stay ahead of their attempts to remove you.

[Beethoven]

The whole wanting to get ahead at any cost (which I meant in an IC sense, not an OOC sense) was just one example of why someone might hire/deal with a magicker, because it's probably a similar reason to why many sorcerers would have pursued their craft. There are other reasons as well that are still Zalanthan and not speshul snowflake.

[Delirium]

When you're playing with (ahem, against) other players who play to win, sadly, in order to just live long enough to tell a decent story, your character may have to make some sacrifices along the way (not necessarily involving magickers). They can either learn this, or die. Or maybe it's just my personal experience. But this is the nature of the beast, in order to even stay about you find yourself in conflict, and therefor, competition with players who "play to win", and must adopt some skeezy tactics to stay ahead of their attempts to remove you.

You don't have to. You can stay true to your role and the world around you and fuck 'em if they play to win.

[Bushranger]

in order to even stay about you find yourself in conflict, and therefor, competition with players who "play to win", and must adopt some skeezy tactics to stay ahead of their attempts to remove you.

Word.

Say hi to your mother for me, ok.

[Fujikoma]

When you're playing with (ahem, against) other players who play to win, sadly, in order to just live long enough to tell a decent story, your character may have to make some sacrifices along the way (not necessarily involving magickers). They can either learn this, or die. Or maybe it's just my personal experience. But this is the nature of the beast, in order to even stay about you find yourself in conflict, and therefor, competition with players who "play to win", and must adopt some skeezy tactics to stay ahead of their attempts to remove you.

You don't have to. You can stay true to your role and the world around you and fuck 'em if they play to win.

Done this many times, never fails though, it's always something. There are many quick paths to unreasonable power that don't involve magick, much quicker, actually, than "befriending" paranoid magickers (or sleazy cut-throats) who have zero reason to trust you and every reason to be suspicious of you. Can only go through it so many times before you're like, damnit, I was enjoying that plotline, and the others, before Doofus McFeckballs stepped in and wrecked my shit AGAIN. This is getting rediculous, it's looking like they're TRYING to find reasons to do this. Ok, welp, next time I get a plot I like, I'm playing a character of flexible morals who will grab on to the rope as tight as they can and not let go.

This said, there are powerful characters whose players are willing to be tricked, fooled, bribed, look the other way because it's beneath them, or otherwise just ignore the situation because they have better things to be doing, while remaining IC, and to those players, kudos, you really make it seem like the gameworld is alive with living, breathing characters, and not a bunch of thin masks over a grief-machine. If this were all there were, it would be much easier to stick to the guidelines every, single, time, and you know why? Because you know you can interact with them and stand a chance at making it out alive if you play your cards right.

So yes, I will play a rediculously unprincipled scumbag from time to time, because people need to be reminded that simply because you've mastered some combat skill and got social influence, doesn't mean you have to use it at 11 at every available opportunity in order to play properly, and it may, indeed, be your undoing.

[nauta]

There are many quick paths to unreasonable power that don't involve magick.

If it doesn't involve magick, then maybe we could move it to its own thread: "Playing to Win: Hot or Not."

I, for one, think wizturbo's thread is worthwhile, although I'm not sure enough about what my own views on it are to articulate something right now.

[Fujikoma]

There are many quick paths to unreasonable power that don't involve magick.

If it doesn't involve magick, then maybe we could move it to its own thread: "Playing to Win: Hot or Not."

I, for one, think wizturbo's thread is worthwhile, although I'm not sure enough about what my own views on it are to articulate something right now.

I like the idea of a thread split, but the point is it COULD involve magick, as that could be part of the means to an end. Or perhaps the person "playing to win" has chosen one of these other paths, and the only way to actually hold your own and continue to interact with other players in any meaningful way would require the help of a mage. As Bushranger pointed out somewhere, there's been animations of NPCs trying to have their children healed by vivaduans, which seems to reinforce that, while rare, it does happen within the gameworld. Then again, there's all the people outside the entrance of that one location, vNPC echos, either dead or dying of thirst, begging for water, while a short distance down the road is a vivaduan pool they won't touch.

[Rayonklar]

My only real issue with play to win behaviors, as long as they do not ruin solid plots on purpose, are when mundanes seem to mysteriously known what eles, sorcs and psis can do and use such knowledge for their pc's benefit regardless of what their pc would know.

[wizturbo]

I think the whole "Playing to Win" is a fantastic reason for people to interact with magickers ICly.  "Winning' is a role that magickers are able to help others fill, and those who ICly want to win immediately have an incentive to meddle with them.

People like to say how magickers spoil the fun for mundanes, but the most powerful combinations are mundanes who work in league with magickers.  You think a 30 day warrior is scary?  Well, a 30 day warrior with a magicker buddy is terrifying.  If your character doesn't have the power to tackle dangerous situations, making a magicker friend can very quickly tilt things towards your advantage with five simple words...  That's tempting, for anyone who wants to "win".  

I see so many people practice their sparring religiously... wanting to be the best of the best.  I wonder why more of them don't look for short cuts.  There's absolutely nothing wrong roleplay wise with seeking out these short cuts, as long as you properly understand that you're meddling with dark forces, and it's unlikely anyone is going to like you for it.  Staff aren't going to swoop down and strip you of your karma and call you a bad player for dealing with a magicker...  as long as you roleplay it properly.  It's also important you consider your background, a Tuluki, a Borsail, or some other specific background that would be even more hardened against utilizing magick is not going to be so keen to deal with a mage.  But if you're born in Allanak, you're bound to know about "that guy" who visited a magicker and had their problems solved...  You hate that guy, unless you ARE that guy.

[nauta]

Staff aren't going to swoop down and strip you of your karma and call you a bad player (unless you're a Tuluki, or a Borsail, or some other background that would be even more hardened against utilizing magick).

Actually, they will, and they probably should, or at least they should look into it.  The average Allanaki citizen fears and distrusts magick at a very, very, very, very low level.   It's really hard for us to get into that mindset in our liberal day and age (even the 'gay' analogy that Jave used earlier doesn't quite come close): the average citizen really does believe all that (codedly) bogus hubbabaloo about magickers, the curses, the superstitions, and so on.  You wouldn't just be acting against society, you'd be acting against a part of yourself.  (Mutatis mutandis for the whole elf-human sex stuff.)  The people going to the Vivaduan temple are ashamed and terrified -- not because of what others think, but because of what they themselves think.

Unless there is some compelling reason for you to buck this trend, then you are, in essence, metagaming, using the gemmed for coded advantage.

[BadSkeelz]

Any warrior who resorts to magick for an upperhand is no true warrior. You're just a chump.

[wizturbo]

Any warrior who resorts to magick for an upperhand is no true warrior. You're just a chump.

That is TOTALLY the mindset most people would have...but if you're the chump whose foot is resting on the corpse of your "warrior" enemy, because you paid off a Vivadu to give you strange and powerful magicks to help you win your fight...  You might think the other guy is the chump.  No one will think you're a bad ass, they'll hate you for it if they ever found out...but you aren't exactly going to advertise.

[Fujikoma]

Yes, also, keep in mind, while toying with "dark forces", that you could easily get burned, to a crisp. There's many reasons your magicker buddy may suddenly turn on you, it's certainly not a choice to be made lightly, and not something to seek publicly. There will be, for some time, a degree of intense distrust between the parties involved, that may boil over at any moment. Then, if they're gemmed, and the Templarate discovers, you better be ready for a heaping helping of scrutiny. I played a Tuluki who had some arrangements with the gemmed (we'd even creep up on them in a certain room in the quarter to pitch deals on occasion), I guess when the Templarate PCs of the time figured out what was going on and exactly why and how, they decided it was alright.

I do know I didn't get any negative account notes I can see from it.

EDIT: I suppose gemmed meeting a wanted dead or alive, vengeful, beastly Tuluki necker warrior, known to fly into mul-like rages on rare occassion, to chat or discuss business on Hathor's has "TROUBLE" written all over it in all caps, but, it made a good story.

[Marauder Moe]

This discussion of deciding how ALL warriors should behave is silly.


Anyway, I say the staff should experiment.  Let some clans hire a mage or two as a one-off deal.  See how it goes.  (Or simply do it to mix things up for the sake of mixing things up.)

[Rokal]

Some people don't care about the destruction of the world or the danger of magick. They just want to get ahead.

The problem is when everyone plays like that, "plays to win". You can't win. You just don't "win" a game like Armageddon. You tell a story, and then you die (or store).

Having victories as part of the story is great and nobody likes to be depressed and beaten down all the time in the game, but it's so refreshing when someone is obviously playing to tell a story rather than to try and "win" the weird socio-political game of Armageddon character power level. What do you win, anyway? Like, really, what do you win?

playing to win/winnaring kills RP. Kind of my stance on it.

to me 'winning' a game like armageddon would be leaving a lasting impression upon the characters my character met and their future before my own characters End.

That'd be winning. :p

[wizturbo]

The average Allanaki citizen fears and distrusts magick at a very, very, very, very low level.   It's really hard for us to get into that mindset in our liberal day and age (even the 'gay' analogy that Jave used earlier doesn't quite come close): the average citizen really does believe all that (codedly) bogus hubbabaloo about magickers, the curses, the superstitions, and so on.  You wouldn't just be acting against society, you'd be acting against a part of yourself.  (Mutatis mutandis for the whole elf-human sex stuff.)  The people going to the Vivaduan temple are ashamed and terrified -- not because of what others think, but because of what they themselves think.

Unless there is some compelling reason for you to buck this trend, then you are, in essence, metagaming, using the gemmed for coded advantage.

I think there's too much of the Tuluki culture injected in that sentiment.  The average Allanaki fears and distrust magick.  Period.  There is no "very, very, very, very low level"  to it.  You just added that, because it helps you make an argument that is invalid.

Don't get me wrong, if a mundane deals with a magicker, it's a dark and dirty secret.  The type of magicker they deal with probably plays into it.  A water mage might be bad.  A Drovian?  That's REALLY bad.  They should be fearful, apprehensive...  whether or not they feel shame depends on their personality, some people don't feel ashamed of anything they do.  Magick isn't something mundanes should ever be comfortable with, but they shouldn't be comfortable with dealing with elves either.  Or going to Red Storm, where they let muls walk around loose.  Muls!  Free?!  Are you kidding me?!   Not to mention they have spice there.  Spice is illegal in Allanak...  commoners should be ashamed and fearful of using it...but many do.  It provides something they want.  People do all kinds of things they aren't proud of to get what they want.

[BadSkeelz]

Any warrior who resorts to magick for an upperhand is no true warrior. You're just a chump.

That is TOTALLY the mindset most people would have...but if you're the chump whose foot is resting on the corpse of your "warrior" enemy, because you paid off a Vivadu to give you strange and powerful magicks to help you win your fight...  You might think the other guy is the chump.  No one will think you're a bad ass, they'll hate you for it if they ever found out...but you aren't exactly going to advertise.

Let's view the question of "should I use magick to win?" through a real life lens.

Europe could solve it's current migrant crises by sinking the ships, gassing the camps, and killing the migrants at the source. But they won't, because that's crossing a moral line and using horrifying means. Even relatively harsh measures being instituted by some countries like Hungary are troubling, because Europe's afraid harshness and xenophobia will escalate into violence as it historically has.

Magick in Zalanthas is the same way. Effective, but morally repugnant and risking a slippery slope to disaster. Zalanthas might not be the most moral people, but the distrust and disgust of magick is a codified part of the setting. Pragmatism is the exception and almost always leads to unforeseen consequences.

You can play that character if you want. But frankly, the chump who resorts to magick for ultimate power is less interesting a character to watch than one who's not taking the easy road.

[Fujikoma]

Any warrior who resorts to magick for an upperhand is no true warrior. You're just a chump.

That is TOTALLY the mindset most people would have...but if you're the chump whose foot is resting on the corpse of your "warrior" enemy, because you paid off a Vivadu to give you strange and powerful magicks to help you win your fight...  You might think the other guy is the chump.  No one will think you're a bad ass, they'll hate you for it if they ever found out...but you aren't exactly going to advertise.

Let's view the question of "should I use magick to win?" through a real life lens.

Europe could solve it's current migrant crises by sinking the ships, gassing the camps, and killing the migrants at the source. But they won't, because that's crossing a moral line and using horrifying means. Even relatively harsh measures being instituted by some countries like Hungary are troubling, because Europe's afraid harshness and xenophobia will escalate into violence as it historically has.

Magick in Zalanthas is the same way. Effective, but morally repugnant and risking a slippery slope to disaster. Zalanthas might not be the most moral people, but the distrust and disgust of magick is a codified part of the setting. Pragmatism is the exception and almost always leads to unforeseen consequences.

You can play that character if you want. But frankly, the chump who resorts to magick for ultimate power is less interesting a character to watch than one who's not taking the easy road.

For some, morality and dick-measuring contests simply lack such import.

[Rokal]

Staff aren't going to swoop down and strip you of your karma and call you a bad player (unless you're a Tuluki, or a Borsail, or some other background that would be even more hardened against utilizing magick).

Actually, they will, and they probably should, or at least they should look into it.  The average Allanaki citizen fears and distrusts magick at a very, very, very, very low level.   It's really hard for us to get into that mindset in our liberal day and age (even the 'gay' analogy that Jave used earlier doesn't quite come close): the average citizen really does believe all that (codedly) bogus hubbabaloo about magickers, the curses, the superstitions, and so on.  You wouldn't just be acting against society, you'd be acting against a part of yourself.  (Mutatis mutandis for the whole elf-human sex stuff.)  The people going to the Vivaduan temple are ashamed and terrified -- not because of what others think, but because of what they themselves think.

Unless there is some compelling reason for you to buck this trend, then you are, in essence, metagaming, using the gemmed for coded advantage.

I'm sure as long as a player keeps the staff informed with bio entries and character reports about why a character is doing such things its generally OK, if they think the reasoning is paltry, they'd let you know, and I highly doubt they'd just punish the player right there. They'd work with the player to come with an understanding. In many of my staff interactions they not only spoke about various things and how they work, they gave me suggestions that helped a lot.

I dont' see why they should dock karma, ect, or will unless its an obvious break of the documentation without real reasoning. Theres a massive importance of communication between staff and a player when doing these things because two people do not always share the same perspective. So its important for them to understand each other as much as possible.

An important thing there is communication. A staffer might not be watching your thinks ,feels, emotes and such at all times.

This si why I personally put in reports. Monthly, usually. but sometimes sooner if something big happened. Even if im not in a leader role. Keeping the staff informed is important.

[Beethoven]

I find myself saying this a lot, but I agree with wizturbo.

The docs also say that Allanaki commoners feel the nobility are above them, inherently better, and deserve to rule over them, but there have been a lot of great plots concerning commoners trying to assassinate, overthrow, or ruin nobles, or even templars.

People are supposed to be mortified by the idea of humans and elves getting it on, but shamefully, breeds exist.

Citizens are born and bred to distrust northerners and despise the enemy city state, but traitors exist.

People are supposed to hate and fear magick, but magickers often learn to embrace their power, whether in order to survive, in order to serve, because they're addicted, or a myriad other reasons.

As I've said before, sorcerers would never rise out of the city-states if people's lust for power never overcame their fear and disgust with magick.

Mundanes who serve Oash learn to work alongside and with the gemmed, even though they may never become truly comfortable. Maybe some of them even do.

The Vivaduan temple is full of desperate and shame-filled people, resorting to magick for healing because they feel they've run out of other options.

So, given all of this, I don't see why it would be so verboten for a mundane to work with the gemmed, if it fits their background, because they're willing to do anything it takes to win, or some other well-thought-out reason. And when I say there are PCs who will do anything to win, I am NOT talking about players who game the system to win. People seem to have a hard time separating the two, but I am talking about CHARACTERS who are ambitious cutthroats. And as BadSkeelz says, not every character should be willing to take the magickal easy road--in fact, most probably shouldn't. But it's a viable role, IMO, so long as you play it carefully and according to the docs.

EDIT: Forgot to say that the docs specifically state that slaves live better than most commoners and slaves generally would not even think of running away from the comfort of their servile lives, but 'escaped slave' is still a viable role.

[wizturbo]

playing to win/winnaring kills RP. Kind of my stance on it.

For some characters, playing to win is the RP.  There are cutthroat, ambitious people out there who will murder their own cousins to get ahead.  I'm not condoning playing characters they are just trying to seek coded advantages to win in PvP.  I'm talking about characters with goals and ambitions...and they're willing to do horrible things to achieve them.  The aide that wants to become a senior Advisor someday, to be as close to a noble as their low birth could ever afford them...if only they had an advantage.  Or, on the flip side, there are normal people who will do anything to survive.  The thief who stole from the wrong guy, and knows he couldn't possibly win in a fair fight, might turn to a magicker to curse his opponent.

These are very human emotions, and can create very interesting RP scenes that have nothing to do with OOCly wanting to pwn someone.  

[Beethoven]

playing to win/winnaring kills RP. Kind of my stance on it.

For some characters, playing to win is the RP.  There are cutthroat, ambitious people out there who will murder their own cousins to get ahead.  I'm not condoning playing characters they are just trying to seek coded advantages to win in PvP.  I'm talking about characters with goals and ambitions...and they're willing to do horrible things to achieve them.  The aide that wants to become a senior Advisor someday, to be as close to a noble as their low birth could ever afford them...if only they had an advantage.  Or, on the flip side, there are normal people who will do anything to survive.  The thief who stole from the wrong guy, and knows he couldn't possibly win in a fair fight, might turn to a magicker to curse his opponent.

These are very human emotions, and can create very interesting RP scenes that have nothing to do with OOCly wanting to pwn someone.  

Dammit, I agree with you again. This is what I've been talking about, and people seem to be mixing it up with 'playing to win,' or at least using it as a springboard to talk about that. I'm not talking about playing to win, in that metagamey sense--I'm talking about playing someone who is playing to win. And a lot of Zalanthans are playing to win, even if most of them would not resort to magick except under the most dire circumstances.

[Delirium]

playing to win/winnaring kills RP. Kind of my stance on it.

For some characters, playing to win is the RP.  There are cutthroat, ambitious people out there who will murder their own cousins to get ahead.  I'm not condoning playing characters they are just trying to seek coded advantages to win in PvP.  I'm talking about characters with goals and ambitions...and they're willing to do horrible things to achieve them.  The aide that wants to become a senior Advisor someday, to be as close to a noble as their low birth could ever afford them...if only they had an advantage.  Or, on the flip side, there are normal people who will do anything to survive.  The thief who stole from the wrong guy, and knows he couldn't possibly win in a fair fight, might turn to a magicker to curse his opponent.

These are very human emotions, and can create very interesting RP scenes that have nothing to do with OOCly wanting to pwn someone.  

That I agree with. Great RP. What I meant was "play to win" by using whatever coded advantages you can find for cheesy, barely justified reasons.

There's a fine line between doing it right and copping out to get ahead on the coded hamster wheel.

[Beethoven]

People say they want more conflict, but many also imply that you have to play a cookie-cutter cultural enforcer who epitomizes their upbringing in every way. (This is something of an exaggeration and I hope no one thinks I'm putting words in their mouths, but hopefully you get my point.) You'll get some conflict that way because the docs encourage you to be racist and xenophobic, but there's a lot of conflict that's missed out on if you're not allowed to play someone who defies the norms. I'm not talking about metagaming, I'm not talking about speshul snowflakes--I'm talking about someone who does shifty, seedy, and unacceptable things beneath the surface.

If someone's playing the shady merchant who secretly uses magickers to get supplies from around the world on the cheap, someone else could find them out and expose them, or blackmail them. That's conflict. Same with the character who has a secret elf fetish. That's something to be dealt with ICly, not forbidden OOCly, unless it's got a really shitty justification or is being treated unrealistically. I understand that it gets difficult when everyone starts "playing the exception" (or something that is perceived that way) at once, but as long as there are players who are dedicated to enforcing the culture, which there seem to be, it can remain an IC matter as long as it's handled well and not cheesily, as Delirium points out.