Magickers and Their Role and Opportunities

[wizturbo]

Yeah, I definitely agree there Delirium.  Not advocating that.

I encountered a character a year ago now that played this magickal ambition right.  They wanted to be a famed assassin.  A righteous blade of the Highlord.  They had a target, and they realized the job would be a suicide mission without magick to get them out of the situation safely.  But if they managed to pull off the job, they'd have made their career.  They weren't happy about it.  They used threats, they had friends who threatened the mage if he tried any funny business, ectera.  It was a cool plot.

Since it's been a year now, I can say things ended quite badly for the would-be famed assassin...but they very clearly were not trying to win in an OOC sense.  Pretty sure they knew it was going to end badly, and proceeded anyway, because their "trying to win" was in character.  That's good roleplay.

[AdamBlue]

And in terms of game balance, half-giants and dwarves are objectively better than their mundane human counterparts in combat, but no one seems to have this militant anti non-human attitude, even if that's also part of the gameworld's lore and prejudices.

I hate, hate, hate half-giants.  It's all farts and big dick jokes, and everybody seems to love it.  Get off my damn lawn!

People have a very difficult time trying to act 'stupid'.

[Taven]

I think the whole "Playing to Win" is a fantastic reason for people to interact with magickers ICly.  "Winning' is a role that magickers are able to help others fill, and those who ICly want to win immediately have an incentive to meddle with them.

People like to say how magickers spoil the fun for mundanes, but the most powerful combinations are mundanes who work in league with magickers.  You think a 30 day warrior is scary?  Well, a 30 day warrior with a magicker buddy is terrifying.  If your character doesn't have the power to tackle dangerous situations, making a magicker friend can very quickly tilt things towards your advantage with five simple words...  That's tempting, for anyone who wants to "win".  

I see so many people practice their sparring religiously... wanting to be the best of the best.  I wonder why more of them don't look for short cuts.  There's absolutely nothing wrong roleplay wise with seeking out these short cuts, as long as you properly understand that you're meddling with dark forces, and it's unlikely anyone is going to like you for it.  Staff aren't going to swoop down and strip you of your karma and call you a bad player for dealing with a magicker...  as long as you roleplay it properly.  It's also important you consider your background, a Tuluki, a Borsail, or some other specific background that would be even more hardened against utilizing magick is not going to be so keen to deal with a mage.  But if you're born in Allanak, you're bound to know about "that guy" who visited a magicker and had their problems solved...  You hate that guy, unless you ARE that guy.

I think there's a distinction between a PLAYER playing to win and a player playing a CHARACTER whose goals are to "win". It's a very, very important distinction. If a player's OOC goal is to get ahead by any means, and they're just continually making characters to support their OOC goal of being the most badass... That's when we see cultural documentation getting ignored. That's when magickers become everybody's public friend, because nobody cares what the docs say.

On the other hand, having a character with the IC goal of getting ahead, regardless of means, is a completely different thing. If they're fully acknowledging the world, then they'll probably realize how frowned upon that would make them--They may take steps to hide it, or otherwise act in a realistic fashion. Your example about the assassin who was using a magicker might be an example of this.

You wonder why more people don't look for these shortcuts. Maybe they do, and they're concealing it well. Maybe they're not, and they're playing a character with a more standard view on magick (because shit, that stuff is scary to your typical commoner). My concern with giving magickers more publicly-accepted, socially-acknowledged roles (such as public and accepted membership in a noble house) will drastically push things to making magick seem socially acceptable. I am all for secret hiring of magick, reluctantly choosing to take advantage of it, and clandestine RP around it. I'm not in favor of everyone hanging out with their 'gicker friend at the bar, or using magick for frivolous things when another way would do.

[Eyeball]

A couple of ideas:

Since the 'rinth is located next to the Gemmed Quarter, there's the potential for some tense cooperation between the two. Say some sort of pest or beast is afflicting the 'rinth. It's starting to spill over into the Quarter. Naturally, the Templarate doesn't much care what happens in the 'rinth, but it's to the benefit of the mages and the 'rinthi to work together to keep the problem down, and each needs the other somehow. Maybe the mages negotiate to rent a small piece of the 'rinth to turn into a field. When they water and till it, they can turn it into crops, some of which goes to feed the 'rinth. Stuff like that.

Some sort of external challenge to the city that can continually preoccupy the Gemmed. I don't know, I've posted ideas for this before but people ignored them or stomped on them. Hmm. Say some Nilazi curse is rising up from the sewers. It can be temporarily held off if gemmed pour mana into a giant crystal sphere to act as a focus. When enough accumulates, the crystal shines brilliantly and the void is sent off, but each time, it returns later, hungrier, and it takes more donated mana to hold it at bay again. Meanwhile the Gemmed work with the Templarate to find a more permanent solution.

[Inks]

But I love the sewers 

[Ath]

See, I have always role played that the Gemmed are to be distrusted by Rinthi.  The reason being as the Gemmed are just the lapdogs of the Templars and they can just force the Gemmed to tell them what they know.  This would be extremely counterproductive to something a Rinthi might want to do.  Gemmed can't keep secrets that Rinthi want kept.  Also, there is always a natural distrust of Rogue Gickers in the Rinth, but this is due to the natural distrust of gickers in general.  In most cases the way the Rinthi deal with those they distrust is by a knife in the back.

[wizturbo]

See, I have always role played that the Gemmed are to be distrusted by Rinthi.  The reason being as the Gemmed are just the lapdogs of the Templars and they can just force the Gemmed to tell them what they know.  This would be extremely counterproductive to something a Rinthi might want to do.  Gemmed can't keep secrets that Rinthi want kept.  Also, there is always a natural distrust of Rogue Gickers in the Rinth, but this is due to the natural distrust of gickers in general.  In most cases the way the Rinthi deal with those they distrust is by a knife in the back.

I agree with this sentiment 100%.

Only situation where a rogue elementalist might find some solace in the 'rinth is if they get backed by one of the gangs/clans that operate out of the 'rinth...and if that happens it's probably because they're an enforcer or something equally scary, not as your friendly bartender :p

[Jihelu]

A couple of ideas:

Since the 'rinth is located next to the Gemmed Quarter, there's the potential for some tense cooperation between the two. Say some sort of pest or beast is afflicting the 'rinth. It's starting to spill over into the Quarter. Naturally, the Templarate doesn't much care what happens in the 'rinth, but it's to the benefit of the mages and the 'rinthi to work together to keep the problem down, and each needs the other somehow. Maybe the mages negotiate to rent a small piece of the 'rinth to turn into a field. When they water and till it, they can turn it into crops, some of which goes to feed the 'rinth. Stuff like that.

Some sort of external challenge to the city that can continually preoccupy the Gemmed. I don't know, I've posted ideas for this before but people ignored them or stomped on them. Hmm. Say some Nilazi curse is rising up from the sewers. It can be temporarily held off if gemmed pour mana into a giant crystal sphere to act as a focus. When enough accumulates, the crystal shines brilliantly and the void is sent off, but each time, it returns later, hungrier, and it takes more donated mana to hold it at bay again. Meanwhile the Gemmed work with the Templarate to find a more permanent solution.

Heres your solution
'Mon bush did 9/11 fireball' Cthulhu Horror.


I both like and dislike how mags are set up right now, but its an odd feeling so I can't describe it.

[ibusoe]

Please pardon my intrusion.  I'd like to start out by pointing out that I know considerably less about magic than plenty of other people who've posted. 

That being said, I think that part of this complaint has to do with mages have not quite enough to do, especially with the level of isolation that I would say must be endemic to this kind of role. 

If that's the case, I question that mages are not really the go to people for certain types of jobs, irrespective of clan-based roles?  For example, if I needed something brought in out of the desert, I'd hire a group of hunters, right?  If I source the job to hunters, they'll take ownership of it and either grab the thing themselves or else subcontract it to someone better qualified to go grab something from the desert.

If I need somebody smacked, you hire mercenaries right?  The mercenaries themselves may need to bring on specialists for certain types of missions, but the nice thing about a competent mercenary company is that they're going to make sure that your enemy gets the smack laid down on them.

I'm surprised that people don't dump any amount of work onto their friendly local (read: satanic and evil) mage when they want to investigate, explore or control *any* supernatural situation.  You're a normal person, right?  You don't *want* to understand too much about the gritty details of the hoary and preternatural forces at work in the shadows of the game world.  But if you ran into a mage, let's say a *licensed* mage who is regulated by the Templarate, you might throw him a job now and then to look into the sorts of things that are themselves kind of distasteful.  You don't really care what type of mage takes the job, do you?  All mages are the same, right?  But this gives mages something to do, and then if the situation goes sour you can always dump responsibility squarely on the mage.  And the Templarate, they're supposed to be regulating the gemmed.

No?

[Jihelu]

I don't want to fuck around with the eldritch horrors.
Let the magickers do that.

[Eyeball]

Very occasionally, a gemmed (let's use 'gemmed' to distinguish from rogues) does get hired. At least when it's one of mine.

In the case of my last gemmed, I played for about a month and a half RL. Despite introducing himself to various people, giving gifts, and doing what else he could to the best of my (limited) political skill, he was hired exactly once. And ended up not even getting paid for it. He spoke to a Templar only twice the whole time; they just weren't much in evidence. He did get invited to join another excursion on the spur of the moment, but unfortunately I was AFK at the time. The AoD Sergeant of the time detested mages to the point where the sanest choice ICly was to just avoid that person.

The soup is just too thin.

[whitt]

I'm surprised that people don't dump any amount of work onto their friendly local (read: satanic and evil) mage when they want to investigate, explore or control *any* supernatural situation. 

No?

It's also possible that is happening and (a) the gemmed being hired are as quiet about it as (b) the folks dealing in such shady practices as employing gemmed  are quiet about it.

I also imagine it would take a fair amount of interaction just to get to the assumption that the "friendly local mage" is, in fact, friendly in a way that allows you trust them enough to take the chance and that dealing with them won't just get you ostracized by your clients.  I don't see so many gemmed about for a long time that this level of trust could be forged, imo.

[Agent_137]

Shady dealings with mages for distasteful/dangerous work is a really cool aspect to Armageddon, but judging by the comments it doesn't happen enough these days.

Back when i played a mage there was a council so there was stability and structure for the mundane folks who wanted shady dealings.

But that's gone now. As a normal PC who wants to contract a mage... what do you do? who do you go to? You don't want to hobnob with a random mage. And you don't have a mage buddy because who's friends with mages? Can you go to Oash? Your local templar? Would they string you up for asking?

Maybe there could be some shady but consistent middle person or organization?

[Jihelu]

From what I know if you asked your local templar in the right way you could probably get help.

Do not quote me on this.

[wizturbo]

From what I know if you asked your local templar in the right way you could probably get help.

Do not quote me on this.

In my opinion, most commoners in Allanak would not approach a Templar for this kind of thing unless they already have a good relationship with the Templarate, or are affiliated with an organization the Templarate does business with regularly.

I agree that for non-affiliated people, there's no structured way to seek out a magicker for help.  This is probably ICly intended...but OOCly it totally blows and makes playing a Gemmed boring.  Having a Gemmed message board would greatly improve this...  could leave a rumor/hint and could stir up plots through it.

[Riev]

Shady dealings with mages for distasteful/dangerous work is a really cool aspect to Armageddon, but judging by the comments it doesn't happen enough these days.

Unfortunately, old blood leaves quickly, and new blood follows the rules and regulations quite well. Nobody knows just WHAT a magicker can do, and they're not supposed to even if they have an idea. So. Why would I hire a magicker to go scout out something if they can't? Is that the equivalent of the age-old "I'm an assassin stop making me do guard/rescue training"?

[Agent_137]

Unfortunately, old blood leaves quickly, and new blood follows the rules and regulations quite well. Nobody knows just WHAT a magicker can do, and they're not supposed to even if they have an idea. So. Why would I hire a magicker to go scout out something if they can't? Is that the equivalent of the age-old "I'm an assassin stop making me do guard/rescue training"?

A commoner could reasonably assume that magickers can do stuff they couldn't dream of, and presumably have easier safer magicky ways to do things they can dream of. A " real life" parallel is making a deal with the devil.

Of course commoner wouldn't know which magicker to ask. That's why a middle man / rumor board / organization would be useful.

[wizturbo]

Of course commoner wouldn't know which magicker to ask.that's why a middle man / rumor board / organization would be useful.

Next character:   A mundane that pimps out Gemmed.





I couldn't find such a great picture in Oashi colors...sorry...

[Taven]

Next character:   A mundane that pimps out Gemmed.

New MMH idea? xD



More on topic, I've already said my concerns about actually giving gemmed acknowledged positions, and how that might affect their social status if affected.

But I was curious about what role everyone would want the gemmed to have, if options were expanded. Luckily, this was answered. Here's what people said, at time of posting:


What People Who Want More Gemmed Roles Want

Aod - But not as coded soldiers		39%
Something similar to the Conclave for gemmed mages		33%
In House Tor, should the clan be opened to non-nobles		28%

* Percentages are of those who voted yes and picked a subsection



My questions are as follows:

• How would having gemmed coded as non-soldiers in the AoD differ from what it is now? Would they just get a cloak? What's the advantage?

• How would a new Conclave address the problems with the last one? How would it be balanced?

• Is there some reason that Tor can't just hire gemmed on the side? Why is it better to have them in-house?

[Agent_137]

• How would having gemmed coded as non-soldiers in the AoD differ from what it is now? Would they just get a cloak? What's the advantage?

• How would a new Conclave address the problems with the last one? How would it be balanced?

• Is there some reason that Tor can't just hire gemmed on the side? Why is it better to have them in-house?

I'll have a stab at these.

1. They'd benefit from OOC coordination and from the official implication that they *should* be used as tools, versus it being left up to each individual leader to seek unaffiliated gemmers out. I can't think of disadvantages except it would make the role too enjoyable.

2. What were the problems with the last one? I assume by last one you mean the Council? Anytime you have an official organization of mages that runs itself you're going to make lots of people very uncomfortable, and rightly so. IMO this would be great, but should be unofficial and kept secret from the populace.

3. Same reasons as #1. But without scorpions out there doing missions, not sure what this would offer that Oash already doesn't. (I assume Oash still hires gemmed?)


Oash, AoD, and unofficial conclave/council would be the ideal amount of options in my opinion. They all have a different flavor and would appeal to different characters.

[Taven]

• How would having gemmed coded as non-soldiers in the AoD differ from what it is now? Would they just get a cloak? What's the advantage?

1. They'd benefit from OOC coordination and from the official implication that they *should* be used as tools, versus it being left up to each individual leader to seek unaffiliated gemmers out. I can't think of disadvantages except it would make the role too enjoyable.

I think the official implication that they should be used as tools is the gem around their neck. If a gemmer actually did want to be used by the templars, presumably they'd be making themselves available and known anyways.

I could maybe see a forum that included gemmer playtimes making things easier. It would be nice, as a gememr, to know when other people are around. I'm not sure that including them as AoD clan is best for this, though. That would give them access to a lot of stuff that's primarily for soldiers to know (maybe information related to rumors only soldiers should know, training schedules, whatever).

My other question is: What are gemmed AoD members (who aren't soldiers) doing when they're not in use? I mean, if they're not soldiers, presumably they're not sparring. I can't imagine that they would have access to the recruit compound--Certainly not to the main soldier barracks.

I don't know, it seems sort of like just making them what they are now, but with (ICly) a cloak and (OOCly) forum access.

• How would a new Conclave address the problems with the last one? How would it be balanced?

2. What were the problems with the last one? I assume by last one you mean the Council? Anytime you have an official organization of mages that runs itself you're going to make lots of people very uncomfortable, and rightly so. IMO this would be great, but should be unofficial and kept secret from the populace.

I do mean CAM, yes. The problem with it was that gemmers monopolized all of the plots, being used even when mundanes could have. They also went around covered in silks that might put some nobles to shame. There were a lot of gemmed and non-gemmed relationships happening, as well. In essence, a lot of the social stigma broke down. They weren't viewed as they should be by docs.

• Is there some reason that Tor can't just hire gemmed on the side? Why is it better to have them in-house?

3. Same reasons as #1. But without scorpions out there doing missions, not sure what this would offer that Oash already doesn't. (I assume Oash still hires gemmed?)

Well, this presumes that Tor would also be open to normal soldiers. And... Yes, Oash still hires the gemmed.

Which brings me to my next point--Doesn't having Oash being the only official hiring spot for gemmed create more plots and interaction? If Tor wants to hire mages to do something, they can do it on the side (perhaps incurring Oashi ire) or they have to engage in political relations with Oash to use gemmed. Oash's main resource and political influence is gemmed. This can make for interesting interactions and lead to more plots.

Oash, AoD, and unofficial conclave/council would be the ideal amount of options in my opinion. They all have a different flavor and would appeal to different characters.

That would be a lot of different options for gemmed, and I'm not sure why we'd need three clans all open to them. How many mages would that put in a clan at any given time?

[nauta]

I do mean CAM, yes. The problem with it was that gemmers monopolized all of the plots, being used even when mundanes could have. They also went around covered in silks that might put some nobles to shame. There were a lot of gemmed and non-gemmed relationships happening, as well. In essence, a lot of the social stigma broke down. They weren't viewed as they should be by docs.

This 'silk' thing comes up a lot.  I mean, didn't -everyone- agree that commoner gemmed wearing silks was immersion-breaking and seriously documentation breaking, even during the days of CAM, that is, even when gemmed were included in things on an OOC level?  So too with gemmed-mundane relationships: regardless of whether or not CAM exists, gemmed-mundane relations are a no-no.

It just strikes me as a dubious thing to bring up.  It sounds like some gemmed weren't roleplaying correctly, and player complaints should have been filed.  Easy-peasy.

It doesn't seem obvious to me that giving gemmed some access to plots and tasks and a structure would entail that gemmed players would suddenly start breaking the docs.

ETA: On the monopolization of plots thing: that's probably the most legitimate complaint I've heard.  I don't have anything to say on it, since I don't really understand it.  All I can say is that as things stand now, it is the complete opposite: it's like immigration in the US -- you have to prove that the job you are hired for is one no other American can do in order to get a job.

[Marauder Moe]

Not roleplaying correctly?  What's wrong with a bunch of oppressed people who relatively quickly gained wealth, power, and prestige wanting to flaunt it?  (Mind you, at the time just about every commoner with the means was wearing finery of that level.  We hadn't had an OOC community backlash over it in general yet.)


Anyway, going back even further I remember several templars that had gemmed acting as de-facto aides for them.  It was delightfully creepy and uncomfortable for everyone else.

[Taven]

It doesn't seem obvious to me that giving gemmed some access to plots and tasks and a structure would entail that gemmed players would suddenly start breaking the docs.

Why does everyone think that gemmed have no access to plots now? Maybe I'm missing something. But if someone wants to hire your gemmed, unaffiliated mage... They can. If it's not socially appropriate for them to, they'll be frowned at.

However, taking a gemmed and saying "we are this organization" and giving them a place in society that could be construed as respected--This is what throws the social balance out of whack. If a gemmer is a member of a House, they have a lot more status then one who does not. An organization behind you gives you social status and power. When you have that, PCs react differently. I'm not saying it's any one group's fault, it's just how it works.


I like this post, so I am going to quote it (formatting mine):

Yes. The gemmed are trapped and marginalized. Physically. Socially. Politically. That's their role within the culture of the Allanaki city state.

They are physically trapped by the gems they are forced to wear.

They are socially trapped by the population's distrust of magic.

They are politically trapped by the design of the government that bars them by law from holding any position of power or authority.

This is what you sign up for when you elect to play a gemmed mage in Allanak. It's the price you pay for the safety you receive. The mages who refuse to be bound in such a fashion either hide their gift or go rouge. It's a big part of our game's setting.

[Lizzie]

Nauta, the docs on silk-wearing commoners are guidelines, not rules. They explain the conventions in Allanak, not the laws of Allanak, or the OOC RP ettiquette. If the templars want to enforce the conventions as actual laws, they need to do that. But it's not up to the populace to send player complaints against players of commoner characters who wear silk, if the templars who interact with them aren't making them change their outfits. This is definitely one of those "deal with it IC" issues. The same goes for magickers wearing silks. Not a law, but rather a convention that is either enforced ICly or not.

As for hireability, I've encountered several situations in which a gemmed mage should've had plenty of opportunity but didn't. Some of it due to the play times of players not mixing well, some of it due to IC circumstances. What always bothered me most though was that Oash was always breathing down your back if you were a gemmed mage, putting pressure on you to join and using "no one else will hire you" as the excuse.

But virtually - that just flat out isn't true. Tor DOES hire mages - virtually. There might be an OOC moratorium on PCs hiring them, but the house, as a whole, does make use of hired mages. To me, that's even more jarring than some of the stuff people complain about. It's just as jarring as saying "but there aren't any other Kadians" when a noble demands a different merchant to get their new silk gloves from, because she won't do business with a tuluk-inked merchant.

I'd like to see more "unofficial" but still lucrative jobs for unaffiliated gemmed mages. I'd love to see the Senate approve piece-work for the noble houses, as an extension of the Highlord's grasp on his "humanoid tools."