So after following the spamcasting thread it got me thinking.
We have these elementalist temples in the gemmed quarter and x number of characters who play x elementalist at a time due to either karma limits or staff imposed limits which is totally understandable.
However, the temples seem to serve as simply gathering places and not places of teaching as they appear to be written (some npcs are supposedly teaching). I always wondered why they didn't have groups of Elementalists that banded together like a clan? Why isn't there a job as water witch of allanak or whatever?
If the temples actually had classes where like classed Elementalists could gather and learn from one another (pcs not npcs) then we could actually role play out how the teacher interprets their magick and effects of babyeater of doom spell effects etc?
There are tons of rp possibilities in using the temples as more than a place to cast evil magick in the city. Templars could come and give the reigning leader of the whirans a task to do x and why and that leader could then pass it down to the lower level ones to get shit done. Merchant houses could hire a vivaduan to keep their people watered on a long trip, there could be a bullitin board where random players could seek out magickers to help them curse the necker that stole their coin pouch and so on.
The temples seem extremely dead and unused to me and it would be nice if they had a useful purpose.
It seems to me to you have a lot of good ideas that are potentially impossible for folks playing to respond to you about. I'd suggest gathering these up into a character report and speaking to the AoD/Gemmed Staff about them that way.
I'm confused about what you're asking for here.
If you're suggesting that people should employ mages for more odd jobs... there are avenues to do that in game, and if you don't hear about it, it's probably because A ) nobody wants to hire a dirty gick or B ) nobody wants you to know they hired a dirty gick.
Well, the Gemmed have banded together as a coded clan before, they were really popular, called the Council of Allanaki Mages, were a part of lots of plots and that time is unlovingly referred to as "x-men days" because of how prominent magick and magickal plotlines were.
As for their options now, mages can Join Oash, a noble house known for housing mages and making wine.
Quote from: whitt on May 18, 2015, 09:02:26 PM
It seems to me to you have a lot of good ideas that are potentially impossible for folks playing to respond to you about. I'd suggest gathering these up into a character report and speaking to the AoD/Gemmed Staff about them that way.
I've been told to use my fellow players as sounding boards and to leave staff alone.
There's nothing OOCly stopping you from trying to foster this kind of environment. I played a PC who managed to do some of the things you listed and I had a blast doing it, but don't expect to snap your fingers ICly and make it happen. Even a place like the Elementalist Quarter has politics, and believe me, they can be just as lethal as other political aspects of the game.
So I can't speak about how things are now, but in the past there were times where things were as you described; older gemmed PCs who were willing to teach the youngins, non-Oash groups with various levels of organization (CAM), and staff animating elders and minions of various temples giving them a will and agenda. It all depends on the particular gemmed PCs, templar PCs, and staff around.
I think it's safe to say that a lot of temple NPCs seem to have >talk scripts. I've also been encouraged to solo-RP lessons (covering the basic info found in the help files) with them for n00b mages who can't find a PC mentor.
Just merge the bloody temples already, seriously. It would make Gemmed in general way, way, way more playable. One bigger temple with special rooms for each element plus a meeting hall and you're done.
I thought that was what was going to happen with the Quarter a while back (after some IC events) - one main temple for meeting and lots of freed up areas for shops/taverns/housing. I was excited.
Alas, the temples themselves were just rebuilt to be grungier.
Back in the day, everyone would just gather at the Vivaduan temple anyway. Until we got kicked out by angry NPCs for crowding up the place.
Then we just moved to the plaza area, which wasn't as central but it was fine.
Quote from: Patuk on May 19, 2015, 12:26:32 PM
Just merge the bloody temples already, seriously. It would make Gemmed in general way, way, way more playable. One bigger temple with special rooms for each element plus a meeting hall and you're done.
There's already a meeting place in the Quarter.
I'd like two things:
o a message board (the same as the one outside the Quarter, so gemmed don't have to leave to figure out what's the talk of the town)
o a private (lockless) hovel-style meeting spot (for, um, betrayal, yeah.)
Quote from: Delirium on May 19, 2015, 12:30:48 PM
I thought that was what was going to happen with the Quarter a while back (after some IC events) - one main temple for meeting and lots of freed up areas for shops/taverns/housing. I was excited.
Alas, the temples themselves were just rebuilt to be grungier.
Such was my hope, too.
I may be miss-remembering, but I could have sworn the reason for keeping the elemental temples separated is/was per Staff policy of some sort. Maybe it was just a Staff member chiming in with their own, personal explanation...Anyway! Keeping all the gemmed in a single location would make it too easy to remain segregated from the rest of the playerbase. Gemmed are supposed to be an iso role, but darn it! Get out of the Quarter and be the source of loathing/fear/social-stigma and shunning/whipping boy for everyone else!
Since I can't pinpoint the source, I take back what I said about this being Staff policy; I do not want to do them a disservice. This view is more than likely my own impressions as to why the temples are not consolidated. It doesn't really make the role that appealing for those who might enjoy social role-play beyond being the outcast, and I sympathize, but not every role is for everyone.
It's a weird catch-22. The impression I get is they don't want all of the gemmed to be too buddy-buddy, but they also don't want too much exposure to the mundanes to prevent the feeling of the game being over-saturated with (supposedly rare) magickal characters.
I think the assumption was that if you let everyone congregate, it'd turn into a cuddle-puddle, but that's doing a disservice to the amazing conflict and social/political roleplay I've seen out of certain eras of gemmed mages. Throwing everyone together isn't going to result in lifelong best friends, though it may result in character collaboration and cooperation - those things don't have to be done with a smile and a song.
Mages need to be comfortable with solo roleplay, but they also need (want, hope) to interact and cross storylines with others.
Quote from: Delirium on May 19, 2015, 12:45:12 PM
Mages need to be comfortable with solo roleplay, but they also need (want, hope) to interact and cross storylines with others.
I actually think the current layout establishes the right balance - it allows you a private spot to escape (temples/apartments) and a public spot to meet (Den). There's a lot of political stuff among the gemmed, and the Oash/AoD/Guild plotlines seep into the Quarter. I admit I was a little frustrated by how underdocumented "temple life" is too, but this just leaves room for PCs to invent the atmosphere together.
One thing that I've noticed is that the plots that gemmed tend to get involved in are what you might call tool-for-the-job plots (which, I guess is supported by the docs): the gick gets helicoptered into the plot, gets told to cast a spell, then helicoptered out of the plot, never really seeing those involved again.
Well, you can fix that with a little ingenuity and usefulness - but the role of a gemmed is very much a behind the scenes support role.
Gemmed are tools. Particularly useful tools might be used more often. Particularly flexible, creative tools might be used in more situations.
You are what you make of yourself, but never forget: matter how valuable the tool, another one can always be found.
I found it to be an interesting challenge - coming up with ways to keep your superiors pleased and willing to keep you around.
Many Gemmed are helicoptered in and out of plots because they hold up in their Temple and aren't particularly useful for anything except their spell list. They don't know what's going on in the world, don't know many people, and thus are shut out of many player driven plots by default. If you view your character like a spell toolbox, don't be surprised if people treat them that way. If you want to be included, get out there and interact!
"Get out there and interact" is a bit simplifying it - they have to interact in a very behind the scenes way, to avoid pissing off players and staff alike. Gemmed *are* tools of the templarate, though that's not to mean they should treat their character as nothing but a toolset of skills.
Interact, yes, interact mindfully to avoid over-saturating the game with magick and to reinforce your character's place in the world - yes.
A gemmed is a challenging role, though the reward is that you can get yourself involved in high-level things which most mundanes cannot.
Quote from: Delirium on May 19, 2015, 01:51:14 PM
Interact, yes, interact mindfully to avoid over-saturating the game with magick and to reinforce your character's place in the world - yes.
I guess what my post was trying to encourage was to get out there and interact in a non-magicky way. Make friends (pro-tip, not all friendships have to be overt. Plenty of people may secretly be willing to deal with a Gemmed, but would absolutely refuse in public). Travel. Learn things that are useful that may not have a coded skill behind them. It is a challenging role, that's for sure, but it doesn't have to be nearly as isolated as people think.
Okay, so we're saying the same thing, just in different ways!
Players' perceptions of/opinions about/arguments over gemmed elementalists on the GDB is probably the reason I don't play gemmed elementalists.
No one ever think's you're 'doing it right.'
You're either spam casting, sitting in bars too much, trying to get people to like you too much, being too reclusive to be a contributive character, being too much of an asshole, being too nice, being too uppity, spend all your time mudsexxing, are overpowered, get too much templar attention, don't get enough templar abuse, and on and on and on and on.
That said, I did have a really good time as a gemmer.... once. Because he wasn't human (dwarf), it separated him in a way that seems easier than being an elementalist, but I believe that was at a time where I decided to completely forgo the GDB.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on May 19, 2015, 08:26:16 PM
Players' perceptions of/opinions about/arguments over gemmed elementalists on the GDB is probably the reason I don't play gemmed elementalists.
No one ever think's you're 'doing it right.'
You're either spam casting, sitting in bars too much, trying to get people to like you too much, being too reclusive to be a contributive character, being too much of an asshole, being too nice, being too uppity, spend all your time mudsexxing, are overpowered, get too much templar attention, don't get enough templar abuse, and on and on and on and on.
That said, I did have a really good time as a gemmer.... once. Because he wasn't human (dwarf), it separated him in a way that seems easier than being an elementalist, but I believe that was at a time where I decided to completely forgo the GDB.
Yeah i think the key is your last point. If i've learned anything about this game over the years, is that it's the most fun when you ignore the GDB (except for clan forums) and focus on your character and the docs.
that said, i love the GDB when i'm not playing.
I believe the Council of Allanaki Mages was intended to serve a few of these spot but somewhere along the way went beyond and became sort mercenary group made up of elementalists. I think it'd be cool if there were some form of elementalists community center where mages got together and did social things. The primary concern being they'd eventually group up into a powerful group, which is fine as long as those elementalists splinter off into their own group and don't co-op the elementalists quarter's community/resources and re-purpose them to their own ends, even if it takes a templar stepping in and saying "Easy now... we don't need another volcano eruptin, or something worse..... But when we do, well send you to Tuluk."
when i think of a gemmed community center
The sun-burnt, krath-haired man asks, in sirihish:
"Alright guys, who's ready for game night?"
The slender, wind-tossed youth says, in sirihish:
"Did you remember the izdari set this time?"
The stone-faced, granite-haired man says, in sirihish:
"It was your turn to bring the izdari set!"
The pale, drov-eyed man shifts uncomfortably in the back corner.
In a hushed tone, the pale, drov-eyed man says, in sirihish:
"I wanted to play Tek's Tower this time..."
Quote from: HavokBlue on May 19, 2015, 11:12:05 PM
when i think of a gemmed community center
The sun-burnt, krath-haired man asks, in sirihish:
"Alright guys, who's ready for game night?"
The slender, wind-tossed youth says, in sirihish:
"Did you remember the izdari set this time?"
The stone-faced, granite-haired man says, in sirihish:
"It was your turn to bring the izdari set!"
The pale, drov-eyed man shifts uncomfortably in the back corner.
In a hushed tone, the pale, drov-eyed man says, in sirihish:
"I wanted to play Tek's Tower this time..."
Hey! Keep the IC stuff off the GDB!
From an OOC perspective I think it's a good thing that there isn't an official Gemmed Clan with leaders to teach people and other stuff. Maybe that wouldn't be so unfeasible now that Allanak is the main playable city, but I think minimising the number of clans that
require leader roles or sponsored roles is a good thing. If the gemmed were like the Byn and everything had to go through a 'Sergeant' type I could see how that would be really frustrating for players of templars and players of gemmed who don't play when the leader does.
I know that isn't exactly what OP suggested, but in the past, that was how the Council of Mages "leaders" tended to start acting once they'd been around a while. I remember being asked to hold off on an unscheduled spontaneous multi-clan event because the "master firemage" wasn't around, so the PC Krathis who were online didn't think they were allowed to participate.
Even if a "mentor" type role was established, I don't think it would be too long before we saw people try to treat it as more than that. Not because players are power hungry jerks or anything, but because it's very natural for PCs to defer to the more experienced character and start to treat them as more of a leader than they are.
Quote from: Pale Horse on May 19, 2015, 12:41:26 PM
I may be miss-remembering, but I could have sworn the reason for keeping the elemental temples separated is/was per Staff policy of some sort. Maybe it was just a Staff member chiming in with their own, personal explanation...Anyway! Keeping all the gemmed in a single location would make it too easy to remain segregated from the rest of the playerbase. Gemmed are supposed to be an iso role, but darn it! Get out of the Quarter and be the source of loathing/fear/social-stigma and shunning/whipping boy for everyone else!
Since I can't pinpoint the source, I take back what I said about this being Staff policy; I do not want to do them a disservice. This view is more than likely my own impressions as to why the temples are not consolidated. It doesn't really make the role that appealing for those who might enjoy social role-play beyond being the outcast, and I sympathize, but not every role is for everyone.
I got told to stop chilling out in the Vivaduan temple as a newb fire mage because according to the docs fire and water are opposing elements and my character would have been uncomfortable there. That didn't even occur to me at the time because literally every magicker hung out at the Vivaduan temple like 100% of the time. Is that maybe what you're remembering?
--
IC-wise, I don't think the templarate would
want gemmed mages organising themselves much. There are plenty of instances in game history of gemmed groups trying to (or succeeding at) murdering templars or "beloved" and "loyal" mages turning on the templarate for money or power or out of some perceived slight. While the gemmed are very much a tool that the templarate uses because they are beneficial, I think the templarate also uses them to foster loyalty and keep them in check. I can't speak for staff's opinion on what the higher reaches of the templarate would think, but on the Blue Robe level I think keeping your mages from getting too buddy-buddy with each other is a concern.
Are fire and water supposed to be opposed according to the docs? I mean, it sounds right, but I thought I remembered that the helpfiles said fire and shadow were the ones that don't get along.
Yeah, the drovian help file mentions it.
But then, the elementalist help files also mention things like people hiring rukkians as travel companions and vivs as part of clans/houses.
Yeah, I agree they seem to be outdated and should probably be taken with many grains of purplish salt, but I know that particular enmity is mentioned in the docs, while I haven't found anything specifically stating that fire and water mages should be opposed.
I'm aware I'm coming dangerously close to encouraging a derail here, though, so feel free to ignore this tangent.
Quote from: Fathi on May 20, 2015, 03:12:29 AM
I got told to stop chilling out in the Vivaduan temple as a newb fire mage because according to the docs fire and water are opposing elements and my character would have been uncomfortable there. That didn't even occur to me at the time because literally every magicker hung out at the Vivaduan temple like 100% of the time. Is that maybe what you're remembering?
Got told by whom?
The problem here is that individuals sometimes try to impose their personal views on the game from positions of in-game authority, and those being imposed upon don't always know whether that's how it's officially supposed to be or not.
I remember a time when a Great Lord of Tor was trying to tell all mages to stay in their own temples and not associate with mages of other temples at all.
Quote from: Delirium on May 19, 2015, 12:30:48 PM
Then we just moved to the plaza area, which wasn't as central but it was fine.
The plaza is located rather awkwardly. There's even space to move it to a better spot. Not going to happen, I know.
Or you could twist it so that templarate wants their elementalists to learn to work together efficiently to better serve the city whether they like it or not because the templarate has little to nothing to fear from a bunch of collared mages for IC reasons. Point is you can go in a direction which fosters conflict and interaction or you can go in a direction which further segments and isolates an already sequestered group.
I know which direction I'd want to go in.
(Edit: in response to Fathi posting about gemmed interaction)
Or you could leave it as is, and let groups form - and unform - and not form - organically rather than forcing it one way or another.
Just like in real life, I'd rather my drama be more interesting than being stuck with people I can't stand being stuck with. There's conflict - and there's conflict. If my character doesn't like one person or another, my character can either learn to accept/tolerate, work on destroying an enemy, or find some other group to hang out with. If you eliminate the "find some other group to hang out with" that leaves me with only two options: accept/tolerate or destroy. That's two dimensional and I really would prefer not to have to go either route, if it makes no sense for my character to do either of those two things.
I wouldn't want to see anything official, but I wouldn't want it to be discouraged for gemmed mages to interact either. A middle road is real nice.
I'd like to see some four-square chart for opinions on mages. Rows: you play mages or you don't. Columns: you want to see improved interaction opportunities for mages or not.
I'm pretty sure it would look something like this:
Question: should mages have improved interaction opportunities?
| You play mages | You don't play mages |
| Yes | 43 | 9 |
| No | 3 | 1293839238394 |
Quote from: HavokBlue on May 20, 2015, 07:28:01 AM
But then, the elementalist help files also mention things like people hiring rukkians as travel companions and vivs as part of clans/houses.
I've always liked the idea that some elementalists are less unpalatable than others.
I've actually started making it a point to have my characters hate vivaduans less than the rest of them. One day I may even have my character hire one.
Quote from: Beethoven on May 20, 2015, 07:23:40 AM
Are fire and water supposed to be opposed according to the docs? I mean, it sounds right, but I thought I remembered that the helpfiles said fire and shadow were the ones that don't get along.
It is fire and shadow which are at cross purposes.
Just think of when they are most effective?
Quote from: Narf on May 20, 2015, 01:06:15 PM
Quote from: HavokBlue on May 20, 2015, 07:28:01 AM
But then, the elementalist help files also mention things like people hiring rukkians as travel companions and vivs as part of clans/houses.
I've always liked the idea that some elementalists are less unpalatable than others.
I've actually started making it a point to have my characters hate vivaduans less than the rest of them. One day I may even have my character hire one.
As far as the helpfiles for the individual mages...I take that description with a grain of salt. Compare it to the rest of the guilds, and it also describes those guilds as far as 'How are these useful' to describe the 'feel' of the character. That doesn't mean that everyone is out to actually do it, it describes the tone of it; Rukkians -are- useful desert companions, indeed. In my view, people going out aren't going to say 'A rukkian would be so useful for us right now!', because aside from that helpfile, all other documentation and authoritative discourse has pointed to the contrary.
Recently, I feel there's been a decent balance of interaction for mages in Allanak. I've seen negative, I've seen positive, I've seen plotting, I've seen fear. I do not feel it is necessary to try and impose change to make them more integrated into the average mundane's life. I do not think it should ever reach the point where a mundane says 'Feelin' a little under the weather, think I'll have a Vivaduan check it out.' I do think someone who was just cut horrendously from neck to navel and is holding his guts might start screaming 'MAGE ME UP, OH TEK, IT HURTS, MAGE ME UP.'
As noted by Eyeball...people who -really- like playing mages seem to really want the world to change to allow them more involvement in more things. People who do not like playing mages do not want to see more encroachment of magick into the mundane world. -I- do not want to see what was at one time a popular practice, which is a large group of mundanes reduced to bodyguards for mages, and 'party-like' atmospheres. I'm sorry, but I see it as the same thing as the player of a desert-elf complaining that they don't get enough interaction inside their territory, so they should be allowed to spend more time out of it, or a halfling wanting to be allowed inside the gates of the city because not all halflings are bad and they're bored; The stigma of mages is a very real part of the role, and it should be played within that role with a certain amount of stretchiness in both directions, but not the point of that stigma itself changing.
I'm not pointing out anyone at all, but more actually drawing on that old argument since it seems to be where this is going to head anyway. A more creative solution is needed than 'make mages more accepted and make more clans use them'.
Edited to add a contribution to the OP:
My opinion: The temples, or rather the elementalist quarter at large, is a way for the City-State to deal with the fact that it is, on some level or another, highly dependent on the mages that they tolerate. They could do without them, but it would be a...helluva deal, a giant pain in the ass, and expensive. However, the populace at large is largely in the dark to this fact, and contrary to what one might think, them finding out would likely not result so much in increased acceptance of mages so much as more rejection of the integrity of their city. Magick is not something they want to be exposed to, and so a quarter was built for those important elementalist people to use for their craft, away from the prying and superstitious eyes of the common who can't really stomach the idea that magick is benign; every experience and story they hear of it is fear, and all those benevolent acts of mages are the exceptions they have to experience over and over before things start to change. For most people. And again, just my opinion on it, and an answer to why they're there but there isn't a giant happy mage enclave in prominence.
That's not really my intent, it's just to make the temples more real feeling and an actual gathering point for the cursed people.
But on the subject of Mage fear/hate I feel that's fine to have that as a baseline. But it's unreasonable for someone to continue to fear something they've been around their whole life.
Say I'm a aide in house high and mighty and I've been tasked with spending time with a mate babyeater for years.
Eventually I'm not going to be freaked out by the skulls of long dead babies that soar around the room before they cast their spells, just because it's natural to grow numb to certain things over time.
I think people should fear, till they know how it works and experience it. So that aide eventually could grow to enjoy spending time with the babyeater because babies are noisy and smell and sometimes you just want someone to eat them. Lol kidding there but I hope you get the gist.
It's different to be wary of a magicker after living a longer lived character and saying something like, "Hey Krathi I don't wanna get burned, so kindly Fuck off and leave me to x.
Than to have the same long lived character go emote emits a high pitched girlish squeal and runs for the hills!
I dunno just my take.
Quote from: Armaddict on May 20, 2015, 01:36:55 PM
Quote from: Narf on May 20, 2015, 01:06:15 PM
Quote from: HavokBlue on May 20, 2015, 07:28:01 AM
But then, the elementalist help files also mention things like people hiring rukkians as travel companions and vivs as part of clans/houses.
I've always liked the idea that some elementalists are less unpalatable than others.
I've actually started making it a point to have my characters hate vivaduans less than the rest of them. One day I may even have my character hire one.
As far as the helpfiles for the individual mages...I take that description with a grain of salt.
That's fine. Won't break the world at all if you have your characters react as if that particular part of the help files wasn't true. It's not supposed to be true for the majority of the populace.
That said, you're going to have to deal with the fact that assumptions that only the templarate and Oash hire mages is headcannon. It might be very popular headcannon, accepted by perhaps even the majority of players. But new players, or those that do not read the GDB have no access to this. They have access to a helpfile that says that Vivaduans can be reluctantly employed by a number of large organizations.
Quote from: Narf on May 20, 2015, 01:52:40 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on May 20, 2015, 01:36:55 PM
Quote from: Narf on May 20, 2015, 01:06:15 PM
Quote from: HavokBlue on May 20, 2015, 07:28:01 AM
But then, the elementalist help files also mention things like people hiring rukkians as travel companions and vivs as part of clans/houses.
I've always liked the idea that some elementalists are less unpalatable than others.
I've actually started making it a point to have my characters hate vivaduans less than the rest of them. One day I may even have my character hire one.
As far as the helpfiles for the individual mages...I take that description with a grain of salt.
That's fine. Won't break the world at all if you have your characters react as if that particular part of the help files wasn't true. It's not supposed to be true for the majority of the populace.
That said, you're going to have to deal with the fact that assumptions that only the templarate and Oash hire mages is headcannon. It might be very popular headcannon, accepted by perhaps even the majority of players. But new players, or those that do not read the GDB have no access to this. They have access to a helpfile that says that Vivaduans can be reluctantly employed by a number of large organizations.
I personally think more forward thinking leaders SHOULD hire certain witches.
The Byn for instance would greatly benefit from having magical shock troops. Though I know the Byn is where you join to chop mother flickers with bone swords and they will probably never allow gemmed.
It's a pretty real part of the gameworld there, Narf. Try hiring a Viv as a Salarri or whatever house of your choice. You might be able to borrow them for one specific mission after negotiating a deal with the templarate but I guarantee you if you go clan that mage and give him a salary and access to the compound you will have PC templars and your staff jumping down your throat faster than you can blink.
QuoteThat's fine. Won't break the world at all if you have your characters react as if that particular part of the help files wasn't true. It's not supposed to be true for the majority of the populace.
That's pretty much what I said. You just cut off the part of the quote that explained why it could be viewed that way, and logically, particularly when you take the rest of the documentation that is freely available, such as http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Magick (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Magick), which is not headcanon, i.e. that helpfile seems to follow the same generic template as the other helpfiles on all the other guilds, it is just being taken far more literally in this case (burglars are perhaps the most employable as spies; not everyone wants a spy, not everyone who wants a spy looks for a burglar, and not every burglar ends up working as a spy; likewise, rukkians are useful as travel companions;not everyone wants a travel companion, not everyone who wants a travel companion looks for a rukkian, and every not all rukkians should be travel companions; it is used as a description of what the class is capable of and most useful for; ergo, the rest of the documentation that is in place becomes valid). While that may not differentiate between clans, it does set a very real baseline for how it is treated for the majority of the gameworld, and clan documentation upon joining those clans generally gives an idea of whether or not this clan is different from the baseline.
QuoteThat said, you're going to have to deal with the fact that assumptions that only the templarate and Oash hire mages is headcannon. It might be very popular headcannon, accepted by perhaps even the majority of players. But new players, or those that do not read the GDB have no access to this. They have access to a helpfile that says that Vivaduans can be reluctantly employed by a number of large organizations.
It isn't headcanon, it's precedented and documented in clan documentation, here, and in places like where I linked above. Tor used to hire war mages. There was a conscious effort to have it changed based off of social stigma. That is an example of the game world being modified to what makes it fitting, and less indicative of headcanon than it is of documented, real canon. As far as new players or players without access to the GDB...if a newbie doesn't know better, and starts hiring mages, as already covered, that will not break the game. However, when the social stigma catches up to them, I'm sure they'll be directed to the relevant information. I'm unsure what that means to you.
Again. I think a bit more creativity than just a positive social injection is needed, otherwise you're basically demanding a retcon of culture that has been prevalent in the game for a very long time, which is...fairly drastic.
Edited to add: Again, these are just my personal interpretations, as you pointed out, Narf, it's just that I don't think they're entirely baseless, and essentially I'm driving for a fresh idea on how the interaction/involvement thing can be addressed without this one. I'm not averse to more interaction and involvement, I'm just averse to the 'we should make people more friendly to them'...unless some long term catalyst can be implemented/acknowledged/identified that justifies it.
I'm curious if the increase in player density for Allanak will result in more Gemmed mages and more opportunities to interact within their own sphere.
It's interesting to me, because conceivably people who weren't playing Gemmed previously who are now (coming over from Tuluk) wouldn't have had an equivalent role in Tuluk, so you might suppose the increased interaction (and all the cool shit going on in Allanak) is the draw in and of itself.
Quote from: HavokBlue on May 20, 2015, 01:58:11 PM
It's a pretty real part of the gameworld there, Narf. Try hiring a Viv as a Salarri or whatever house of your choice. You might be able to borrow them for one specific mission after negotiating a deal with the templarate but I guarantee you if you go clan that mage and give him a salary and access to the compound you will have PC templars and your staff jumping down your throat faster than you can blink.
That's the only issue, no, most clans will not hire your Gemmed in the traditional sense, i.e. put a uniform on them and give them a spot in the barracks. Many clans will secretly work with Gemmed though, if you make an effort to show how you can provide value. That's how social stigma works. For most of the last century homosexuality had a social stigma associated with it, that doesn't mean it didn't happen, it just meant it wasn't in the public eye. Now that stupid stigma is gone it's becoming more apparent and accepted. The same is true for hiring mages. I've seen large organizations employ the services of my Gemmed many times, but it's rarely been public knowledge.
Hiring that gemmer to do X thing during Y RPT that one time isn't quite the same thing as employing them.
Quote from: HavokBlue on May 20, 2015, 03:28:50 PM
Hiring that gemmer to do X thing during Y RPT that one time isn't quite the same thing as employing them.
What constitutes employment?
If you are 'part' of an organization or House as the help file implies you are presumably a salaried, actual member of the clan.
I just want to tag on here to say that Vivaduans are some of the most terrifying mages out there, if someone knows how to utilize them.
Quote from: HavokBlue on May 20, 2015, 03:38:29 PM
If you are 'part' of an organization or House as the help file implies you are presumably a salaried, actual member of the clan.
Okay, so you're meaning joining a clan as an employee. Thank you for clarifying.
I agree, clans don't generally knowingly clan gemmed elementalists (except House Oash because that's their shtick.) I'm curious if people would think it'd too taboo for someone to contract elementalists for things like escort jobs. I think it'd be cool to bring a rukkian or vivaduan along for a long trip. I guess the problems start when you're on the trip with your clan (and won't get access to things like clan facilities) and you're going to the northlands (where gemmed aren't welcome.) Are these the reasons people don't hire gemmed, because it's difficult play-ability wise for them to fit in, or simply because of the stigma?
Besides the IC stigma characters should rightfully have regarding mages, there are other IC factors (the templarate, your NPC boss) and OOC factors (staff dictating you can't clan gemmers) that prevent it from happening.
Do these things all make sense to me? Eh. I think I know why you can't hire a gemmer from an OOC standpoint.
Back when there was a PC clan on both sides of the Rinth (post Haruch Kemad) it would turn into an arms race to see who got the strongest mage on their side and that would, as far as I know, strongly impact the course of events for the mundanes in those clans.
I imagine if some GMH hunter players, for example, feel unneeded when the food is provided by a cook... They'd feel similarly unneeded when the clan wizard summons a feast constantly.
Quote from: HavokBlue on May 20, 2015, 07:28:01 AM
Yeah, the drovian help file mentions it.
But then, the elementalist help files also mention things like people hiring rukkians as travel companions and vivs as part of clans/houses.
I'd also note: opposites can attract. Of course, that won't guarantee they get along well for very long, if at all.
There's nothing stopping a Viv and Krathi from finding each other frustratingly exciting, because their approaches are so contrary to each other.
Quote from: Tetra on May 20, 2015, 10:15:21 PM
Quote from: HavokBlue on May 20, 2015, 07:28:01 AM
Yeah, the drovian help file mentions it.
But then, the elementalist help files also mention things like people hiring rukkians as travel companions and vivs as part of clans/houses.
I'd also note: opposites can attract. Of course, that won't guarantee they get along well for very long, if at all.
There's nothing stopping a Viv and Krathi from finding each other frustratingly exciting, because their approaches are so contrary to each other.
True.
Then again, it has been pointed out that Gemmed are characters and not just a set of spells and skills. They are people, first. The degree to which a magicker is affected, personality wise, by their element is entirely up to the player.
Maybe that Drovian likes hanging out with Krathi. All that fire-magick messes with their shadows? Who says they like the dark or their magick? Maybe they have a fascination with fire. Moths to flames and all that.
I always liked the idea of a kind of vibrant, light drovian who's wrapped up in the "you need light to cast a shadow" thing and then I realized I was thinking of Mellisandra.
I've always preferred magickers who aren't influenced by their elemental connection outside of its existence. I think Armageddon's strongest magickal themes revolve around magickers just being people who's lives have been interrupted. I'll leave high magic to the dusty, long-forgotten corners of the game as something to be witnessed and marveled at, not forcibly/artificially injected into a concept.
Quote from: Rathustra on May 21, 2015, 06:14:48 AM
I've always preferred magickers who aren't influenced by their elemental connection outside of its existence. I think Armageddon's strongest magickal themes revolve around magickers just being people who's lives have been interrupted. I'll leave high magic to the dusty, long-forgotten corners of the game as something to be witnessed and marveled at, not forcibly/artificially injected into a concept.
I agree. Though, how about the convenience and laziness that wielding magick brings? And the protean attitudes that come with realizing or understanding the depth of magick(though that's markedly uncommon, considering the world culture)?
I see this as more of a natural byproduct as you become more adept with your magick/element.
Quote from: Beethoven on May 20, 2015, 07:23:40 AM
Are fire and water supposed to be opposed according to the docs? I mean, it sounds right, but I thought I remembered that the helpfiles said fire and shadow were the ones that don't get along.
Well I haven't read that before. Reference:
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Krathis
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Elementalist%20Culture
P.S.
Derp i responded to a post on page one
It says something about them being opposed in the Drovian helpfile, I think, although as has been stated before, you should probably not take that at face value since those docs have a lot of outdated information.
I've spent a lot of time OOC and IC musing about the elements and their relationships.
Armageddon's magick system is either not symmetrical/logical, or it's missing at least 7 elements.
In most magical/spiritual/whatever systems, fire and water are indeed opposites. However, consider that Zalanthas may have a culturally warped view of the elements due to the world being horribly out of balance. After all, who would waste precious water to put out a fire?
emote pees deeply into the fire
Fires are probably put out by sand. ... I'm going to make me a Ruk-hating Krathi.
Quote from: valeria on May 21, 2015, 12:28:30 PM
Fires are probably put out by sand. ... I'm going to make me a Ruk-hating Krathi.
Everyone knows that in Allanak, fires are put out by burying the fire under a heap of dead rioters.
Quote from: whitt on May 21, 2015, 12:57:00 PM
Quote from: valeria on May 21, 2015, 12:28:30 PM
Fires are probably put out by sand. ... I'm going to make me a Ruk-hating Krathi.
Everyone knows that in Allanak, fires are put out by burying the fire under a heap of dead rioters elves.
FTFY
Quote from: nauta on May 21, 2015, 12:57:55 PM
Quote from: whitt on May 21, 2015, 12:57:00 PM
Quote from: valeria on May 21, 2015, 12:28:30 PM
Fires are probably put out by sand. ... I'm going to make me a Ruk-hating Krathi.
Everyone knows that in Allanak, fires are put out by burying the fire under a heap of dead rioters elves.
FTFY
There'd need to be enough elves to make a heap... ;D
Woot Elf Derail! Go!
Obviously I'm biased here, but I loved the Council of Mages. I seriously had a blast flying around with five to twelve other mages just exploring the mud and playing with our spells on each other. I could entertain myself and others for hours on end and that's partly because of a certain secret thing but we seriously had some epic adventures without the need of any animation from staff.
Oash can be hard if your playing with a Noble that hates magick or doesn't know what to do with Magickers. It can turn into a lot of explaining stuff to them that almost feels like cheating and having them just sent you for silly components and encouraging you to spam cast to branch for them...or worse completely ignoring you so your basically sitting around the Oashi magickers barrack with your thumbs up your butt. I've also seen situations where you have an Oash that actually seems to out right hate mages. While being abused is part of the hardship you deal with as a mage it gets very old very fast when its 24-7 in the ONLY Clan you can join. I would just like to see AoD take mages again..I think its even still in the docs that they take krathi (maybe wrong here I haven't checked in a few years) ..I don't think further isolating them from the rest of the player base adds to the game and the Council of Mages did in way do that.
Quote from: Bast on May 21, 2015, 01:51:09 PM
Obviously I'm biased here, but I loved the Council of Mages. I seriously had a blast flying around with five to twelve other mages just exploring the mud and playing with our spells on each other. I could entertain myself and others for hours on end and that's partly because of a certain secret thing but we seriously had some epic adventures without the need of any animation from staff.
Oash can be hard if your playing with a Noble that hates magick or doesn't know what to do with Magickers. It can turn into a lot of explaining stuff to them that almost feels like cheating and having them just sent you for silly components and encouraging you to spam cast to branch for them...or worse completely ignoring you so your basically sitting around the Oashi magickers barrack with your thumbs up your butt. I've also seen situations where you have an Oash that actually seems to out right hate mages. While being abused is part of the hardship you deal with as a mage it gets very old very fast when its 24-7 in the ONLY Clan you can join. I would just like to see AoD take mages again..I think its even still in the docs that they take krathi (maybe wrong here I haven't checked in a few years) ..I don't think further isolating them from the rest of the player base adds to the game and the Council of Mages did in way do that.
Aod taking mages would be awesome.
Pretty sure AoD has gemmed whenever they want them.
Quote from: whitt on May 21, 2015, 03:05:28 PM
Pretty sure AoD has gemmed whenever they want them.
pretty sure they mean actually coded arm. IE untouchable by crimcode
Meh. AoD soldiers are already kind of superfluous and little better than cannon-fodder when it comes to getting shit done. Having mages around in an official capacity just kind of gets in the way of the mundane soldiers meaningfully contributing. RPTs also seem to get more deadly (in terms of resistance and obstacles) the more non-mundanes you have, which usually just translates to higher casualty rates among the mundanes.
Gemmed are certainly useful and my soldier would have died a lot of times over without their support. So maybe I'm just resentful of their utility and their effect of dragging the game away from low fantasy.
Quote from: Asmoth on May 21, 2015, 03:07:34 PM
Quote from: whitt on May 21, 2015, 03:05:28 PM
Pretty sure AoD has gemmed whenever they want them.
pretty sure they mean actually coded arm. IE untouchable by crimcode
Which would be pretty disastrous, given the amount of shenanigans Gemmed can get up to even without being Crimcoded.
Quote from: Asmoth on May 21, 2015, 03:07:34 PM
pretty sure they mean actually coded arm. IE untouchable by crimcode
Yeah... those are called Templars. You make a gemmed untouchable by crimcode... and oof. I mean. I get your point. But it would also mean anyone attacking an out of control gick would be destroyed by the crimcode. One gemmed players goes wrong with this and so many bad things happen. Just not worth it.
Gemmed can be clanned AoD when needed by the powers that be.
I don't think anyone worth their salt would abuse the AOD clanning. Otherwise what are they doing playing a mage in the first place?
Wanting to use (intentionally and thematically appropriate) overpowered skills to wipe out sponsored roles/long lived characters/people who won't mudsex you/etc. Karma players are still players and prone to the same lapses of judgement. You don't even need very high karma (or any at all) to play a magicker.
Quote from: Asmoth on May 21, 2015, 03:29:33 PM
I don't think anyone worth their salt would abuse the AOD clanning. Otherwise what are they doing playing a mage in the first place?
Certainly, yes, we can trust karma players not to abuse certain things.
The problem is, especially in this hypothetical scenario, is that people may have differing ideas about what "abuse" is.
Gemmed mages are never going to be officially part of the AoD. Next topic!
Could we have magick-mount fighting pits added? plzkthx
Quote from: Talia on May 21, 2015, 03:58:15 PM
Gemmed mages are never going to be officially part of the AoD. Next topic!
(http://www.lionspire.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/50246-soooo-youre-telling-me-theres-P7Ga.jpeg)
:D
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 21, 2015, 04:00:37 PM
Could we have magick-mount fighting pits added? plzkthx
anticipated your request and have already implemented this, ur welcome
Quote from: whitt on May 21, 2015, 04:03:44 PM
:D
lawl
Quote from: Talia on May 21, 2015, 04:04:56 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 21, 2015, 04:00:37 PM
Could we have magick-mount fighting pits added? plzkthx
anticipated your request and have already implemented this, ur welcome
(http://i.giphy.com/S3Ot3hZ5bcy8o.gif)
I like the idea of Vivaduans being able to join the AoD as Recruits. Never higher than that, never given crim-code immunity, but still able to support the soldiers and train with them. Vivaduans obviously wouldn't dominate scenes the way other mages can, which addresses BadSkeelz concern of being overshadowed by them.
I wouldn't want to train with a 'gicker as a commoner. And they already have to help the militia whenever militia needs them. Seems sort of pointless.
If I could change anything about the Gemmed, I would probably just let other noble houses and GMHs put one or two mages on retainer with stipulations about how influential they can be. Let them be codedly clanned but don't let them stay in the barracks with normal employees. The mages who can't score one of those lucrative spots can fight and plot and scheme to kill the guys who have them and take their jobs.
I don't think it would make everyone happy, but then there's nothing you can do with magick in armageddon that will make everyone happy. You are always going to have people who want less magick, and you're always gonna have people who want more.
Quote from: whitt on May 21, 2015, 04:03:44 PM
Quote from: Talia on May 21, 2015, 03:58:15 PM
Gemmed mages are never going to be officially part of the AoD. Next topic!
(http://www.lionspire.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/50246-soooo-youre-telling-me-theres-P7Ga.jpeg)
:D
Yes, they're called gemmed who become a templar's
bitch loyal minion.
Quote from: HavokBlue on May 21, 2015, 06:14:30 PM
If I could change anything about the Gemmed, I would probably just let other noble houses and GMHs put one or two mages on retainer with stipulations about how influential they can be. Let them be codedly clanned but don't let them stay in the barracks with normal employees. The mages who can't score one of those lucrative spots can fight and plot and scheme to kill the guys who have them and take their jobs.
(http://zurpolitik.com/wp-content/uploads/jobs.jpg)
Why is there so much ado about mages being hired in official capacities? Armageddon has murder, corruption, and betrayal, not murder, nine-till-fiive desk jobs, and worker's rights. I never would hire a mage, gemmed or not, on any non-Oashi sponsored role, but behind-closed-doors deals is kinda thematical to the game.
Quote from: Patuk on May 22, 2015, 06:11:41 AM
Why is there so much ado about mages being hired in official capacities? Armageddon has murder, corruption, and betrayal, not murder, nine-till-fiive desk jobs, and worker's rights. I never would hire a mage, gemmed or not, on any non-Oashi sponsored role, but behind-closed-doors deals is kinda thematical to the game.
I think this goes back to the post about being helicoptered in for the RPT and then helicoptered back out as soon as you've cast the spell they need you to cast
I'm guessing that it's Kurac that sells helicopters? I must have one!
I'm sure the Vivadu temple has one. So they can life flight the Bynners who fall off the Shield Wall...
actual coded helicopters died with the gypsies
I remember being utilized as a Whiran to essentially helicopter around the people who'd missed the departure for an important RPT.
Guy who puked, I remember and salute you.
Was that for the pre HRPT? I'm pretty sure that was me. ;D
Gemmed mages work for the City-State of Allanak. This basically means - they are allowed to exist and practice within their temples, and obey the commands of Templars. The usual scenario is - PC and NPC templars will seek out a gemmed for certain tasks, as and when needed - but this doesnt mean that the gemmed will have continuous employement and direction from the Templars. In fact, with the closure of Tuluk OOCLY, this will be even more evident, I suspect.
They further have an option to join House Oash, and this basically means that the chief employer then becomes the Oashi noble, although, the gemmed still has to heed orders from Templars (much like anyone else in Allanak). The usual norm suggests that employment within Oash actually doles out more day-to-day activity for a gemmed vis-a-vis being an independent gemmed.
Coming to the temples - they are gathering places for gemmed of each different element, to study, and also used as places to rest, sleep and store certain sundry possessions. Sure, gemmed of different elements could gather in a particular temple, to talk or even to jointly practice spells - that's not forbidden (as long as you're following the rules of casting within Allanak).
As far as IC classes - where one PC (or NPC) teaches another - there are various views on that. Some subscribe to the view that each mage has to figure out things on their own, or, to ask someone else who might know more than them. Others are freer with knowledge and impart it without being asked. There are times when a certain mage might know a few spells that others in his temple don't - which keeps him rich and fat and popular.
Remember - it is a community - yes - but it doesnt mean that everyone loves each other and automatically wants to help each other out. In fact, knowledge in this particular community is at a premium - so like it or not, it's not gonna come cheap or easy.
The bulletin board for the gemmed - sounds like a reasonable idea. I'd definitely agree with that. It'd help gemmed interact with each other, and for others to discreetly seek out the gemmed too, without having to "spread the word in public taverns" so to speak.
Unless they're just artifacts of an older Armageddon, we would have to assume based on the NPCs and room descriptions that the Gemmed quarter has it's own ecosystem with Gemmed herbalists and Gemmed clothiers and a large number of street performers evidently. Because all of these people need to make a living somehow and the Templarate isn't gonna pay for their wants and needs.
One thing that you COULD do - and which is always fun as well as productive - is to form groups of gemmed mages, of different elements, and go outdoors together. This is particularly useful for mages who have less combat firepower, or, those who prefer not to engage in combat for other reasons. Safety in numbers and the more the merrier concept. If you've got your own clique - you really wont need anyone else to "order" you. And, what's more is - you get to practice spells which you cannot cast inside the Elementalist Quarter.
On my phone so am not quoting, but on the subject of teaching, there are a few oddball spells that took me forever to learn to cast because they use other than your regular power to cast. Thankfully someone just straight told me icly what the code was.
I am of the mind though that if someone asked me how to cast a spell I know I would just say it's 'mon un nilazi your mom' (insert proper symbols).
Not all of the spells actually make sense and I personally think that help magick sphere and help magick mood should be updated a bit to be a little more intuitive. But that's just my opinion.
But I've never had the whole mentality of keeping knowledge a secret like described above. The way the magick system works if you can't figure out a crucial spell in the branch, you're stifled so I wouldn't want to be the guy fucking over a character from developing.
But I understand the self serving aspect of doing the reverse.
I don't play magicked anymore, so it hasn't really mattered, but I generally hated the trial-and-error of picking the right words. There was some obvious combinations that made sense and that was fine, but there were other that just involved me trying every word combination until I got it right. That's not really fun game play to me, it was tedious.
Quote from: Incognito on May 22, 2015, 06:06:52 PM
Coming to the temples - they are gathering places for gemmed of each different element, to study, and also used as places to rest, sleep and store certain sundry possessions. Sure, gemmed of different elements could gather in a particular temple, to talk or even to jointly practice spells - that's not forbidden (as long as you're following the rules of casting within Allanak).
You can no longer follow someone of element cheese into the cheese temple if you happen to be bacon or broccoli. It sucks and I don't get why that was implemented. I'm thinking someone must have actively complained about something.
Quote from: Cind on May 22, 2015, 08:30:20 PM
Quote from: Incognito on May 22, 2015, 06:06:52 PM
Coming to the temples - they are gathering places for gemmed of each different element, to study, and also used as places to rest, sleep and store certain sundry possessions. Sure, gemmed of different elements could gather in a particular temple, to talk or even to jointly practice spells - that's not forbidden (as long as you're following the rules of casting within Allanak).
You can no longer follow someone of element cheese into the cheese temple if you happen to be bacon or broccoli. It sucks and I don't get why that was implemented. I'm thinking someone must have actively complained about something.
Probably because SHADOW would allow an assassin to follow them into a private room and kill them.
You can still follow them into the "entry rooms." The inner rooms are reserved for people gemmed with that element. Makes IC sense to me, if I were a Krathi I'd be pissed off if some Vivaduan decided to hang out in the "inner sanctum" of the Krathi temple. The outer area has benches, if a Viv thinks it makes any kind of sense to hang out in a temple dedicated to fire, he can sit on one of the benches.
There is no IC reason or even an OOC playability reason why anyone should be able to get inside someone else's temple. There's the Den, and it suffices as a place for the gemmed to congregate together. There's the outer rooms of each temple, which suffices as a secondary place for the gemmed to congregate together. There is also an apartment building that's just for the gemmed, in the quarter, where gemmed can get affordable rents and invite all their gemmed pals in to hang out together.
I remember there used to be a place in the elemental quarter, right near the Den, where the CAM used to congregate. They even had their own NPC. But then the CAM was disbanded and the tent or pavilion or whatever it was, was removed or destroyed or some such (it's been a long time but I remember being in it). Now that Allanak is more consolidated than it was previously maybe the staff will entertain the idea of some new incarnation of the CAM. If they do, then maybe they'll consider giving them their own clubhouse. At the moment though, the only club for gemmed mages is Oash. Til there's another club, there's no need or reason for another clubhouse.
All of my Gemmed hang out in Samos' house. You need the sekret password to get in.
Quote from: Eyeball on May 21, 2015, 05:57:57 PM
Vivaduans obviously wouldn't dominate scenes the way other mages can.
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lm6gz0Srwr1qzv6wv.gif)
Quote from: HavokBlue on May 22, 2015, 06:23:24 AM
Quote from: Patuk on May 22, 2015, 06:11:41 AM
Why is there so much ado about mages being hired in official capacities? Armageddon has murder, corruption, and betrayal, not murder, nine-till-fiive desk jobs, and worker's rights. I never would hire a mage, gemmed or not, on any non-Oashi sponsored role, but behind-closed-doors deals is kinda thematical to the game.
I think this goes back to the post about being helicoptered in for the RPT and then helicoptered back out as soon as you've cast the spell they need you to cast
Isn't that kind of ICly sensible? Would employment even solve that?
Quote from: Eyeball on May 21, 2015, 05:57:57 PM
Vivaduans obviously wouldn't dominate scenes the way other mages can.
This wants me to make another defileresque Viv.
Without getting too specific. Any mage can dominate an RP scene, not by having aggressive or flashy magic, but by having presence and nuance in how they use it. And yes, Vivs included.
I'd like there to be a GDB forum for the gemmed.
Quote from: Eyeball on June 15, 2015, 09:36:55 PM
I'd like there to be a GDB forum for the gemmed.
+1
Quote from: nauta on June 15, 2015, 09:37:54 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on June 15, 2015, 09:36:55 PM
I'd like there to be a GDB forum for the gemmed.
+1
Yes, but I'd just like it if they were allowed into the Arm forum if they are situated mostly in Allanak.
Quote from: The Silence of the Erdlus on June 15, 2015, 09:55:00 PM
Quote from: nauta on June 15, 2015, 09:37:54 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on June 15, 2015, 09:36:55 PM
I'd like there to be a GDB forum for the gemmed.
+1
Yes, but I'd just like it if they were allowed into the Arm forum if they are situated mostly in Allanak.
That's a good idea too! The plots that gemmed get brought into - which let's face it, if not Oash, then Arm plots - tend to continue along with the poor gemmed twiddling their thumbs in the dark after they did that one thing - tool for the job. Plus, the turnover rate in the Quarter seems to be almost as bad as the rinth. Rolecall/Absence thread would be nice. A rumourboard amazing.
It's almost like being gemmed makes you feel ostracized or something.
You're not in a clan, though. You're just a bunch of dudes/dudettes that spit fire and wear gems. It's a small community of PCs, sure, but in a far larger virtual population. You're grebbers, tools, and so on. You're also free to pursue your own goals and not rely solely on His Arm for entertainment, whereas there are different restrictions on those who have sought out the life of a soldier.
If staff wants to introduce His Arm formally taking on gemmed recruits, that would be different. You shouldn't have access to their docs if you're just some grubby gemmed that Lord Templar Fuckyou calls upon every now and again. There are forums for clans because they need to better communicate for rpts, check who's checking in so they can assess hiring caps, etc..
It's not going to happen because it shouldn't happen.
Oh, and:
Quote from: Synthesis on June 15, 2015, 10:15:00 PM
It's almost like being gemmed makes you feel ostracized or something.
Edit: A rumor board is a good idea, though.
Quote from: Eyeball on June 15, 2015, 09:36:55 PM
I'd like there to be a GDB forum for the gemmed.
It's called Oash.
*badum-tish*
If Gemmed get to post on the AoD forum I want my weapons to be able to post too.
Cause that's all you fucking are.
A GDB forum for the gemmed wouldn't need to have roll calls or such common to other clans, but it would be a useful place to discuss issues and ideas that aren't really appropriate to speak of with the general player community.
Quote from: Taven on June 15, 2015, 10:34:37 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on June 15, 2015, 09:36:55 PM
I'd like there to be a GDB forum for the gemmed.
It's called Oash.
*badum-tish*
Oash =/= The Gemmed
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 15, 2015, 10:55:16 PM
If Gemmed get to post on the AoD forum I want my weapons to be able to post too.
Cause that's all you fucking are.
Next thing you know we'll be letting Elves in.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 15, 2015, 10:55:16 PM
If Gemmed get to post on the AoD forum I want my weapons to be able to post too.
Cause that's all you fucking are.
Hehe.
Quote from: Eyeball on June 15, 2015, 11:26:08 PM
A GDB forum for the gemmed wouldn't need to have roll calls or such common to other clans, but it would be a useful place to discuss issues and ideas that aren't really appropriate to speak of with the general player community.
Just because you have the karma doesn't mean you get to talk about it with other people who have the karma.
Quote from: Synthesis on June 16, 2015, 12:13:56 AM
Quote from: Eyeball on June 15, 2015, 11:26:08 PM
A GDB forum for the gemmed wouldn't need to have roll calls or such common to other clans, but it would be a useful place to discuss issues and ideas that aren't really appropriate to speak of with the general player community.
Just because you have the karma doesn't mean you get to talk about it with other people who have the karma.
Though when that karma entitles you to an entire quarter to the city maybe you should get a rumor board.
Quote from: Jihelu on June 16, 2015, 12:18:47 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on June 16, 2015, 12:13:56 AM
Quote from: Eyeball on June 15, 2015, 11:26:08 PM
A GDB forum for the gemmed wouldn't need to have roll calls or such common to other clans, but it would be a useful place to discuss issues and ideas that aren't really appropriate to speak of with the general player community.
Just because you have the karma doesn't mean you get to talk about it with other people who have the karma.
Though when that karma entitles you to an entire quarter to the city maybe you should get a rumor board.
An in-game rumor board would make the most sense, however - the quarter isn't completely isolated; non-gemmers can go there freely. That means that non-gemmers would have the same access to that rumor board as the gemmers do. To compare - the rinth is also not completely isolated, but there are both coded and uncoded risks involved in going there to find their rumor board and read it.
There are no such risks in the elementalist quarter. So a rumor board would be unrestricted, unless the board was only in the temples. That'd mean you'd need five duplicate rumor boads - one for each temple, much like there are two of the "southside" boards - one for each of the two bars.
But then you would ALSO have conflicts of interest: Any Oash gemmed employee has the same access to those boards as any non-Oash gemmed. And any rinthi elf with a gem would also have the exact same access as a citizen has.
That's the thing about being gemmed - you are still an individual, you're not in a clan, you might not even like your fellow temple-members, or be the same race, or even from the same location. A *Tuluk-born* who turns themselves into the templarate and takes a gem, will have the SAME access to the gem board as you, a loyal Allanak citizen does. Considering the nature of a lot of those things that gemmed mages do, I don't think this would be a good idea. It would either be empty most of the time, or people who shouldn't know ALlanak's business would have easy access to the information.
Quote from: Patuk on May 19, 2015, 12:26:32 PM
Just merge the bloody temples already, seriously. It would make Gemmed in general way, way, way more playable. One bigger temple with special rooms for each element plus a meeting hall and you're done.
I kind of figure rumor boards aren't at all representative of a cohesive culture, but more of where stories certain types of gossip tends to linger. With this in mind, it's not hard to argue that all quarters (noble, merchant, commoner and labyrinth, and elementalist) would have their own rumor board.
Quote from: Patuk on June 16, 2015, 10:41:57 AM
Just merge the bloody temples already, seriously. It would make Gemmed in general way, way, way more playable. One bigger temple with special rooms for each element plus a meeting hall and you're done.
Really don't like this idea. They're separate for many reasons, and I don't see anything having changed to make those reasons no longer valid.
I would like to see an IC rumor board for the Gemmed though. And for Gemmed RPTs and such, can always use the player announcements section like any other RPT.
Quote from: Lizzie on June 16, 2015, 08:36:32 AM
An in-game rumor board would make the most sense, however - the quarter isn't completely isolated; non-gemmers can go there freely. That means that non-gemmers would have the same access to that rumor board as the gemmers do. To compare - the rinth is also not completely isolated, but there are both coded and uncoded risks involved in going there to find their rumor board and read it.
There are no such risks in the elementalist quarter. So a rumor board would be unrestricted, unless the board was only in the temples. That'd mean you'd need five duplicate rumor boads - one for each temple, much like there are two of the "southside" boards - one for each of the two bars.
But then you would ALSO have conflicts of interest: Any Oash gemmed employee has the same access to those boards as any non-Oash gemmed. And any rinthi elf with a gem would also have the exact same access as a citizen has.
That's the thing about being gemmed - you are still an individual, you're not in a clan, you might not even like your fellow temple-members, or be the same race, or even from the same location. A *Tuluk-born* who turns themselves into the templarate and takes a gem, will have the SAME access to the gem board as you, a loyal Allanak citizen does. Considering the nature of a lot of those things that gemmed mages do, I don't think this would be a good idea. It would either be empty most of the time, or people who shouldn't know ALlanak's business would have easy access to the information.
I don't think the issue of various people having access to the board would be a problem. If some non-gemmed character wants to go listen to the gemmed quarter gossip (and it's IC justified), that seems okay to me. I think the main idea of the IC rumor board would be to represent the general talk around the quarter, not to be some kind exchange of top sekrit info.
Quote from: Synthesis on June 16, 2015, 12:13:56 AM
Quote from: Eyeball on June 15, 2015, 11:26:08 PM
A GDB forum for the gemmed wouldn't need to have roll calls or such common to other clans, but it would be a useful place to discuss issues and ideas that aren't really appropriate to speak of with the general player community.
Just because you have the karma doesn't mean you get to talk about it with other people who have the karma.
There was a thread about "Magick in the Gemmed Quarter" that got moved into non-existence fairly recently. It's a perfect example of something that could have gone into such a Gemmed GDB forum instead.
Plenty of uses for such a forum. E.g. posting RPTs that wouldn't be public knowledge except within the Quarter.
teh gemmed need archery-target style things so they can cast at un and have like lazer competitions and shit
Quote from: Synthesis on July 21, 2015, 12:43:40 AM
teh gemmed need archery-target style things so they can cast at un and have like lazer competitions and shit
I tried this and it didn't work out. The world isn't ready for Rathustra TwinkTech(tm) technologies.
Quote from: Synthesis on July 21, 2015, 12:43:40 AM
teh gemmed need archery-target style things so they can cast at un and have like lazer competitions and shit
They have each other.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on July 21, 2015, 04:19:12 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on July 21, 2015, 12:43:40 AM
teh gemmed need archery-target style things so they can cast at un and have like lazer competitions and shit
They have each other.
More mage on mage crime in 2016!
On the real though, I could get behind a movement of all the temples to like a simple hub. You'd still have the fancy entrances and stuff but would be closer together, culturally though, nazi allanak wouldn't be down with putting all their flashy and abused weapons in chit-chat range of one another I don't think.
Don't the elements like, oppose each other, man?
I feel like with certain Elements it's like a "WESTSIDE! *gun shots*" sort of deal and with others they're more like "Watch where you walking mano. Fuck outta here." sort of thing.
One thing I think is important is to create a culture for gemmers, honestly, much like the rinth. I don't know how many people are currently playing gemmers, but I think having a Gemmers only bar ... well, a bar in the Gemmed Quarter which because of social stigma was a Gemmed only bar, would do well for this. I know there used to be a square there ... it's been a while since I played a mage though.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 26, 2015, 01:57:28 AM
One thing I think is important is to create a culture for gemmers, honestly, much like the rinth. I don't know how many people are currently playing gemmers, but I think having a Gemmers only bar ... well, a bar in the Gemmed Quarter which because of social stigma was a Gemmed only bar, would do well for this. I know there used to be a square there ... it's been a while since I played a mage though.
There's the Den - it functions that way, although gemmed see wayyyy too much of each other anyway. Something to motivate intrinsic conflict (like east/westside) would be neat ... but what would be even more neat would be a way to get involved in extrinsic plots.
Gemmed basically have no purpose in the game. Templars might drag them out when some RPT-level shit is going down, but no RPT really needs them nor can really be set up with them in mind. The entire gemmed population could disappear and the rest of the world would barely notice.
I'd argue the opposite. Gemmed can do everything a mundane can do better... which makes it difficult to choose the slower, riskier, more mundane option over the quick easy magickal one.
I'll say neither of the above two posts are entirely accurate. The current status of the gemmed "situation" is IC, but it exists, it's interesting, except on the days when it's boring. It's dynamic, it has its ups and downs.
In order to express WHY the above two posts are not entirely accurate, I'd have to get into actual examples, which is against the rules and would also give away plotz.
Quote from: Lizzie on July 26, 2015, 08:43:26 AM
I'll say neither of the above two posts are entirely accurate. The current status of the gemmed "situation" is IC, but it exists, it's interesting, except on the days when it's boring. It's dynamic, it has its ups and downs.
It might be useful to distinguish between excluding gemmed as an IC thing, and excluding them from plots. I'm fine with the former, but as a matter of playability, the latter makes things rather uninteresting. It also matters which element you are.
As far as I can tell, unless you are one of the two elements that get asked to do things, the gemmed don't have very clear access (if any at all) to plots (except Oash/Templarate RPTs), and many avenues for plots are closed to them. So I'd agree with Eyeball. However, this might have to do with what Badskillz says: there are playability concerns if you include a gemmed in your plot.
Quote from: nauta on July 26, 2015, 11:03:45 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on July 26, 2015, 08:43:26 AM
I'll say neither of the above two posts are entirely accurate. The current status of the gemmed "situation" is IC, but it exists, it's interesting, except on the days when it's boring. It's dynamic, it has its ups and downs.
It might be useful to distinguish between excluding gemmed as an IC thing, and excluding them from plots. I'm fine with the former, but as a matter of playability, the latter makes things rather uninteresting. It also matters which element you are.
As far as I can tell, unless you are one of the two elements that get asked to do things, the gemmed don't have very clear access (if any at all) to plots (except Oash/Templarate RPTs), and many avenues for plots are closed to them. So I'd agree with Eyeball. However, this might have to do with what Badskillz says: there are playability concerns if you include a gemmed in your plot.
Now, you are moving your goalpost, and narrowing down the criteria, which is getting into IC info. Regardless, the point stands. Just because the plots YOU know about might only involve the criteria you're posting about, doesn't mean no other plots exist that might or might not involve other criteria. Again - anything more is IC info.
I'm in favor of anything that puts players together personally and ANYTHING that makes RPT's easier to organize. Honestly I haven't played a gemmed mage in 4+ years because I seriously dislike the limiting options for employment and RP. Nak -to me- has slowly felt more and more like Tuluk in regards to the magicker hate. I feel a lot of it oocly driven by the mage haters as well. I understand this opinion isn't shared by everyone.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on July 26, 2015, 06:59:09 AM
I'd argue the opposite. Gemmed can do everything a mundane can do better... which makes it difficult to choose the slower, riskier, more mundane option over the quick easy magickal one.
If all you want to do is rattle around the world on your own, sure.
Quote from: Bast on July 26, 2015, 02:36:18 PM
I feel a lot of it oocly driven by the mage haters as well.
I'm not a big fan of magick in this game, I like the low magick feel to this desert apocalypse world. But I've played characters who deal with magick just fine, I even played a Tuluki Templar who didn't flinch at using magickers on the sly (as long as he could control them reasonably).
If my PC hates magick, it's because they're the status quo-- an elf hating, breed kicking, gicker fearing, rinthi sneering son of a gun. I mean, at least I think that's the status quo when I read the docs.
Quote from: Kismetic on July 26, 2015, 03:25:35 PM
Quote from: Bast on July 26, 2015, 02:36:18 PM
I feel a lot of it oocly driven by the mage haters as well.
I'm not a big fan of magick in this game, I like the low magick feel to this desert apocalypse world. But I've played characters who deal with magick just fine, I even played a Tuluki Templar who didn't flinch at using magickers on the sly (as long as he could control them reasonably).
If my PC hates magick, it's because they're the status quo-- an elf hating, breed kicking, gicker fearing, rinthi sneering son of a gun. I mean, at least I think that's the status quo when I read the docs.
Truly, I think that people potray the hate far more then they potray the -fear-. People should be -scared- of the gickers, in my experience i've seen so many people ready to gear up to hunt down that rogue gick. Milltia members or legion members aside (When tuluk was open) Why would any mundane even think of wanting to risk themselves dealing with a gicker?
its a common misconception, but fear is NOT hatred.
Alas, as much many of the ideas shared in this thread are what I would personally prefer to see IG, there have been numerous occasions where Staff has said that their implementation will not happen.
This isn't to say that changes may not be implemented where the Gemmed are concerned, just that the ideas presented here are not the sort of change that will be.
Quote from: Rokal on July 26, 2015, 10:19:33 PM
Truly, I think that people potray the hate far more then they potray the -fear-. People should be -scared- of the gickers, in my experience i've seen so many people ready to gear up to hunt down that rogue gick. Milltia members or legion members aside (When tuluk was open) Why would any mundane even think of wanting to risk themselves dealing with a gicker?
its a common misconception, but fear is NOT hatred.
Totally agree. Maybe there just haven't been enough scary magickers lately (as in their personality, not their coded capability).
Quote from: wizturbo on July 27, 2015, 12:13:12 AM
Quote from: Rokal on July 26, 2015, 10:19:33 PM
Truly, I think that people potray the hate far more then they potray the -fear-. People should be -scared- of the gickers, in my experience i've seen so many people ready to gear up to hunt down that rogue gick. Milltia members or legion members aside (When tuluk was open) Why would any mundane even think of wanting to risk themselves dealing with a gicker?
its a common misconception, but fear is NOT hatred.
Totally agree. Maybe there just haven't been enough scary magickers lately (as in their personality, not their coded capability).
I actually do not think it is that.
I've noticed the game comprises of mostly veterans - its an old, old game. often times, RP games thrive from the 'new' blood, the newbies coming and stiring up the pot from their inexperience, eyes wide and full of enthusiasm to explore. I don't think we have enough newbies coming in to truly stir the huge pot up that is armageddon. (Sadly)
Many of the vets have experienced magic in one way or another, and have had their fill of it over their years that they aren't scared of it anymore - im a newbie, through and through, and every time I get an encounter with magic in it, im at the edge of my seat out of both -fear- and -excitement-
Veteran's don't get to experience that anymore, usually. Thus the IC fear factor isn't as intensified, which is not surprising, its a hard thing to overcome.
Cast aside your OOC experience, veterans! put your shoes in the inexperienced noob that your character is (or may not be ;)) to the fullest.
Just what I think, anyway. it could be a mixture of wiz's thoughts and my own, or a variation there of.
My character fears magick, and never had to be told to. Maybe you should clean your room.
Edit: I'm just joking! I've totally been having a lazy Sunday on the GDB.
The hyperbole is strong but really it's just glurge. Be the change again and again and again. You know I'd love to. But one of my last characters, another long-lived one (several RL months) had ZERO interactions with magickers. And she was a city girl. How can you express fear of something you've never been exposed to? I mean, you can say "Oh scary story, I shall have bad dreams for a week after hearing that!" so many times before you think - well if it's so bad out there, how come I haven't EVER actually seen it? Eventually people grow up and realize that Santa Claus is daddy, and the Tooth Fairy is mom, and the boogie man in the closet doesn't exist. Literacy has nothing to do with it - people who can't read still do become adults capable of discerning reality from myth.
If you don't ever see magicks, you have nothing to connect your fear with. You become disconnected from that whole aspect of roleplay.
So don't blame the newbies, OR the veterans, OR the magickers. I blame it on happenstance in some cases. Lack of exposure = lack of care. What you don't see, can't hurt you. It's a common mentality and in Armageddon it might not be true, but it's still a common mentality.
I think back just before the Copper Wars, during the "end game" days when sorcs and rogue mages and all kinds of freaky reaches and other things were going on in the game, is what gave people the *display* of something worth being afraid of. They SHOWED people "this is what we can do. Now you have a solid foundation for your fear." You haven't seen much of that at all in the past few years, and not really at all in the past year. The most visible, public, fear-worthy display was when the thing happened in the Gaj and it was very quickly cut down and destroyed, thus proving once again that people have nothing to fear from it (because the templars can stop it JUST THAT EASILY).
What most people didn't see, was all the freaky stuff that led up to it. The part of all that, that would have had these characters pissing their pants if they had actually seen what was going on behind the scenes.
I'm not saying that demonstrations need to be held for the public. In fact - I'm seeing a lot of demonstrations to show that it is NOT as scary as it should be. We need to pull back on the sharing of information, both ICly and OOCly - pull back on the "instructional" aspect of magicks, and re-emphasize the scary RPed part of it. Yes, when you cast this spell, this happens, and you can defend against it with that spell, and you have to wait x minutes before you can cast it again, and yhou must use six of these, and one of those, and blah blah blah. Stop doing all of that. Especially in public places. Instead - save it for when you can find a reason to actually use it against someone - and then use the shit out of it.
Quote from: wizturbo on July 27, 2015, 12:13:12 AM
Totally agree. Maybe there just haven't been enough scary magickers lately (as in their personality, not their coded capability).
Disagree. I do not think it is supposed to be the personality of the magicker that is terrifying to those around them, but what they wield. They're supposed to be people, good and bad, grebbers and drunks, shy people, confident people, bloodthirsty people, humans and breeds and stumps, people dealing with being branded "abomination" in one way or another. It's not the way they go around swaggering that should make them scary. It's society's knowledge of what's
inside them.
Sure, some more obviously and publicly "volatile" type gemmed personalities might help encourage and remind mundane players that hey, the gemmed are supposed to be frightening. Hey, I'd be fine with some more eerie cantrips sprinkled in every now and then. Really, though, the responsibility lies on the mundane players to play out that side of the docs, in my opinion. If a gemmed chooses to have an EXTRA-SCARY-DANGEROUS personality, that should just be icing on the terrifying cake.
I'd love to see more cantrips in general that are minor, uncomfortable, and provoke a negative reaction to the gemmed.
A vivaduan trying to be friendly and shake someone's hand, but their palm is clammy and wet.
A drovian just looking over at someone but their eyes go pitch black for a second.
Leaving faint burn-marks on a mug when a Krathi sets it down.
Etc.
The point being that while you can roleplay a gemmed trying to be a normal person, you as the player should OOCly reinforce that they're not.
I wish Magick actually harmed non-magickers randomly and without warning. Like, a Gemmed sitting near you could actually lower your endurance. And then you had to see a Magicker in order to be cured. Or shaking a Krathi's hand could actually char your rings and gloves.
Yes, I know that's work for the coders but things like that would make mages actual, unintentional menaces. I know we're supposed to pretend mages can curse you and make you not have children, etc, but ... why? I want coded proof, or, I want people to get over Magicker fear.
Elven racism has roots in the elven persona of needing to get over on you. Racism against giants concerns stupidity. Racism half elves has to do with polluting the human blood line.
Prejudice against mages has to do with wanting neither the healing or the free this or the free that or the better this or ... uh, the curses that nobody has actually ever linked to Magick ... I don't know.
I want Magick fear reinforced, or, I want it's social aspects changed. One or the other.
Easy fix, give all magickers the cannibalism script halfings used to get.
If it became known that magicks could randomly effect other people then the people enforcing the law would either outlaw mages from the city proper and sequester them indefinitely in the elemental quarter, or they'd simply eliminate them permanently.
For the same reason that a man with a sheathed dagger doesn't just randomly pull it out and stab someone in the hand - you know, in a non-lethal way, just like you're suggesting magicks happen randomly.
No one would want to play a mage, knowing that they can't leave the quarter without risking getting arrested or autoganked for accidentally randomly affecting someone with their magicks. Magicks are still illegal outside the quarter. That includes accidental woopsie magicks and cantrips.
Which is why I suggested roleplayed cantrips, not code.
Commoners are brainwashed against magick and it's natural to fear what you don't understand. That fear should not be dropped as easily as it often is, despite repeated exposure - think of magick more like working with nuclear waste, you have no idea what it's secretly doing to you, now do you? If you have good, solid reasons for coming to terms, with magic, then by all means, do so, but try to recognize and portray the strangeness of that scenario and expect - maybe even OOCly encourage - the backlash you should get.
e.g. Emote some hostile stares from people at the Gaj when you sit down and chit-chat with your magicker buddy.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 27, 2015, 09:51:54 AM
I wish Magick actually harmed non-magickers randomly and without warning. Like, a Gemmed sitting near you could actually lower your endurance. And then you had to see a Magicker in order to be cured. Or shaking a Krathi's hand could actually char your rings and gloves.
Yes, I know that's work for the coders but things like that would make mages actual, unintentional menaces. I know we're supposed to pretend mages can curse you and make you not have children, etc, but ... why? I want coded proof, or, I want people to get over Magicker fear.
Elven racism has roots in the elven persona of needing to get over on you. Racism against giants concerns stupidity. Racism half elves has to do with polluting the human blood line.
Prejudice against mages has to do with wanting neither the healing or the free this or the free that or the better this or ... uh, the curses that nobody has actually ever linked to Magick ... I don't know.
I want Magick fear reinforced, or, I want it's social aspects changed. One or the other.
RL prejudices are not generally based on reason, and especially not in uneducated societies. Sometimes the grain of truth is as simple as: "those people are different, and that makes me feel uncomfortable." Magickers have alien, unnatural powers. Might there be a twinge of suppressed jealousy there, too, for some? Stir that all up with some fearful exaggerations and you get all sorts of superstitions. No, you can't prove your pox came from that 'gicker that looked at you cock-eyed last week. But where DID it come from, if not? You don't know anything about bacteria, or viruses, or medicine. You just know that there's people who can do weird shit, and your ma always told you that they make you wither up and/or break out in hives.
Yeah, if you think about this from a modern perspective, it doesn't make sense. "Where's the
evidence?" But if you think about it like an uneducated medieval bumpkin, it makes perfect sense. "You can't prove that 'gicker DIDN'T cause X."
I, the player, hate pretending to hate magickers for no real reason. I want to either really OOCly fear their presence, or include them in my play without the hatred bit.
But yes, you guys have some awesome RP tips and reasons for maintaining the Zalanthian mind set.
Quote from: Pale Horse on July 26, 2015, 11:36:53 PM
Alas, as much many of the ideas shared in this thread are what I would personally prefer to see IG, there have been numerous occasions where Staff has said that their implementation will not happen.
This isn't to say that changes may not be implemented where the Gemmed are concerned, just that the ideas presented here are not the sort of change that will be.
I'd agree that whatever might be implemented should be subtle. I also doubt anything dramatic needs to be changed - a lot of it would be tweaks to documentation, if anything. The magick system is fabulous, there's a lot of things that work really well.
One problem with the discussion itself is that it is basically impossible to have a discussion among the players about magick. This is a good thing: it keeps the mystery. But it means all we can really talk about is how the non-gemmed should RP encountering the gemmed, other than vague allusions to things already in public documentation (the fact that Oash and the Templarate hire gemmed, for instance, and that there are different kinds).
But, at the same time, I would think a gemmed board or something like that would be pretty nice, to discuss magickal concepts and how to roleplay them, to kvetch a little about playability as a gemmed, things like that. It'd probably also lighten staff workload a bit, since I imagine all new gemmed fire off very similar questions to them.
Great, gemmed already struggle to find a raison d'etre and people here are trying to think of ways to make them even less useful and more unpopular.
Quote from: Beethoven on July 27, 2015, 09:32:59 AM
Disagree. I do not think it is supposed to be the personality of the magicker that is terrifying to those around them, but what they wield.
Sure, but if the person behind that magick is reasonable and calm, then there's less reason to fear them. What I don't see much of is driven, scary magickers, who have their power and use it for less than humanitarian purposes. Where's the mages to reinforce the stereotype of baby-stealing, curse-slinging, terror that the common man is supposed to whisper prayers to the Highlord for protection against?
Quote from: Eyeball on July 27, 2015, 02:27:35 PM
Great, gemmed already struggle to find a raison d'etre and people here are trying to think of ways to make them even less useful and more unpopular.
Not at all. My issue is that I'm asked to pretend my character has a reason to feel the way he does. Without divorcing common sense, right now, simple observation would tell him that a mage won't hurt him unless the mage wants to, and thus there is no reason to eschew mages who have not hurt him. That is what I'm supposed to believe, too.
I don't like believing things that don't make sense to him, by extension, me. So either make Magick actually scary, or change the required social concept of Magickers must all be scary. Let rogue mages be the villians. But of course, unless this became acceptable, my characters will generally play Magicker fear/disgust. It's just that it's not one of my favorite aspects.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 27, 2015, 05:28:14 PM
Not at all. My issue is that I'm asked to pretend my character has a reason to feel the way he does. Without divorcing common sense, right now, simple observation would tell him that a mage won't hurt him unless the mage wants to, and thus there is no reason to eschew mages who have not hurt him. That is what I'm supposed to believe, too.
Bingo. And I don't think we need to make magick inherently something to fear to accomplish this, we just need magickers with the personality to hit that home.
The reasons to hate/fear magick aren't based on common sense and observation.
They're based on upbringing, culture, myth, stereotypes, and propaganda. Commoners are also poor, illiterate, and generally uneducated. They're not taught to question society and employ reason and observation. Your character should start out hating/fearing magick because that's how the docs say they were probably raised.
Relevant poll: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48952.0.html
The majority of the player base overwhelmingly believes magick is good as is, or they want more of it. Very easy to lose sight of that with the vocal minority of magick haters on the GDB :)
I hate magick and voted that the amount of representation it has in game is fine.
We sort of have two discussions running in tandem here.
1. Discussion (even meta-discussion about the discussion) about how to make gemmed life more playable for the gemmed.
2. Discussion about how to understand the fact that gemmed are documented as being scary.
I'm not sure how that happened.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on July 27, 2015, 06:00:54 PM
I hate magick
Since this seems to be a common sentiment, why don't we simply move it out of Allanak. Set up some mixed magicker/mundane colony across the Silt Sea. Give it some issues where it has to struggle to survive. Also give it some things to generate trade with the mainland. Both of these things will give magickers something to do. Let the mundanes whose players don't have stomachs churning with dislike for magick cross the sea to visit and trade. Let the others live in a templar-and-quarter-sorcerer-magick-only world. That should make magick rare enough that when it does happen, people can play being terrified by a truly unusual event.
Okay, fine Nauta. I'll get back on topic.
I agree something could and should be done to make Gemmed play more fun, but the game was built with so many IC barriers to that it's a daunting problem to fix. I've played a lot of long lived Gemmed, and essentially my diagnosis of the problem is that the #1 issue with the role is a lack of IC leadership. And I don't mean leadership in the Templar or Noble sense, I mean ground level "Sergeant" style leadership. When that kind of leadership was available, played a Gemmed was a lot of fun, and even kept things closer to the documented setting in my opinion to prevent things from veering too far away from accepted norms.
There is only one clan that openly hires Gemmed, and can provide a staff supported "boss" for a Gemmed, and that's House Oash. Independent Gemmed who want to act as leaders amongst their peers can try to do so, but this is made very difficult by IC forces. Part of accepting the role of a Gemmed "leader" is to accept and deal with those IC forces...but it sure sucks. Being a leader without any actual authority or rank is a constant struggle, and that's what you're forced to do if you want to play a Gemmed 'Sergeant'-type person. I've seen Gemmed rise in prominence throughout the years, but because they have no rank or standing, they have to spend half their time convincing the population to listen to them, rather than lead.
If I were able to wave a magick wand and implement a single, realistic change, it would be adding one Gemmed rank within the Arm of the Dragon (with perhaps other ranks above it that are held by NPCs). This is not to say they should have crim-code immunity, just be a recognized servant to the Templarate, with a uniform, and the limited (but undeniable) authority that comes with that to lead. I would then open a role call for this rank to be filled a single time, and make the position available for promotion in-game with a limit of no more than 2 PC's able to attain the rank at any given time, but only in exceptional cases would that 2nd spot ever be filled.
This would create a carrot for Gemmed to chase, trying to attain some meager amount of status, and it would give those characters that invest countless hours of work into leading the authority to actually do so in some limited capacity.
Moving all the Magickers to some other part of the game world will do nothing to solve the problem of magickers not feeling fully connected to the game world. Either they become an even more isolated role, or it becomes a cancerous blight on the gameworld as Magicktown sucks up Staff attention and resources (real or perceived). I would rather have mages better incorporated in the world than separated from it.
Which brings us to the problem of how to deal with mages. Hating mages in game is hard. They're powerful and useful, making them very attractive allies. I hate magick way more OOC than my PCs tend to do IC, because they're useful friends. At least for me, this makes it easier to hate Magick OOC because its power is always tempting us to break docs and not hate it in-character.
Quote from: wizturbo on July 27, 2015, 07:47:14 PM
Okay, fine Nauta. I'll get back on topic.
Good boy. :-)
Quote from: BadSkeelz on July 27, 2015, 07:48:56 PM
Moving all the Magickers to some other part of the game world will do nothing to solve the problem of magickers not feeling fully connected to the game world. Either they become an even more isolated role
It would give them things to do that they don't have now (e.g. participate in the village's fight to survive, participate in the village's associated gathering of materials and making of things for trade), and without making the isolation any worse than it really is (which is already almost like being a ghost). Actually, if anything they'd be less isolated because there wouldn't be the Oashi/non-Oashi divide, with every Oashi mage sworn into a cloak of secrecy and apartness from the community.
Quoteor it becomes a cancerous blight on the gameworld as Magicktown sucks up Staff attention and resources (real or perceived).
You mean like staff actually giving them some attention and their own plots/challenges? Sounds like a good idea to me. I suppose there would need to be some quota to prevent too many PCs from being mages at the same time.
Here's a question for you, BadSkeelz. Have you ever actually played a mage? From your OOC hatred of magick, I doubt it. Maybe you should try walking a mile in a mage's shoes.
For what it's worth, I think magicktown wouldn't be very much fun at all. Not to mention it would never be given a chance to establish itself, as the IC Sorcerer-Kings would snuff it out, as they have in the past when such things cropped up.
Quote from: wizturbo on July 27, 2015, 08:02:36 PM
For what it's worth, I think magicktown wouldn't be very much fun at all. Not to mention it would never be given a chance to establish itself, as the IC Sorcerer-Kings would snuff it out, as they have in the past when such things cropped up.
Well, they could still be gemmed, with a few templars around.
Quote from: wizturbo on July 27, 2015, 05:05:32 PM
Where's the mages to reinforce the stereotype of baby-stealing, curse-slinging, terror that the common man is supposed to whisper prayers to the Highlord for protection against?
Getting wombo-combo'd by Gemmed Seal Team Six, usually.
Quote from: wizturbo on July 27, 2015, 05:05:32 PM
Where's the mages to reinforce the stereotype of baby-stealing, curse-slinging, terror that the common man is supposed to whisper prayers to the Highlord for protection against?
Maybe if they actually had to do evil things to gain certain powers. And were given more non-lethal but vexing curses to deploy.
Quote from: Eyeball on July 27, 2015, 08:00:38 PM
Quoteor it becomes a cancerous blight on the gameworld as Magicktown sucks up Staff attention and resources (real or perceived).
You mean like staff actually giving them some attention and their own plots/challenges? Sounds like a good idea to me. I suppose there would need to be some quota to prevent too many PCs from being mages at the same time.
Here's a question for you, BadSkeelz. Have you ever actually played a mage? From your OOC hatred of magick, I doubt it. Maybe you should try walking a mile in a mage's shoes.
Staff giving anyone "Their own plots/challenges" is inherently suspect if those plots only affect a small number of players. Better to have plots that engage a large number from a broad swathe of groups, mundane and magick alike.
Guilty as charged for never playing a Mage, though, and I make no apologies. Seen enough of how they play (From their side of the monitor) to realize it's probably just not my cup of tea, playstyle-wise. Too reliant on triggers, grind-rewarding. I also just hate magick thematically: it retards the setting, reduces too many details to "a magicker did it" and acts as a block for real meaningful mundane-driven change. We'll "never" see an independent village arise since the all-powerful Sorcerer Kings and their magickal servants and slaves will blow it up with one alias. (Such villages have actually arisen, though... with magicker help). Magick's also inherently unAmerican, since mages are living proof that some people are just better than others.
My thematic distaste for magick extends beyond Armageddon, and doesn't include the players who play interesting magicker characters in spite of the magick.
My ideal Magicker is like what you'd see in the old Conan stories: powerful, mysterious, inherently evil and terrifying, and capable of being beaten to death with a piece of furniture if you can get the drop on them.
Quote from: Eyeball on July 27, 2015, 08:24:38 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on July 27, 2015, 05:05:32 PM
Where's the mages to reinforce the stereotype of baby-stealing, curse-slinging, terror that the common man is supposed to whisper prayers to the Highlord for protection against?
Maybe if they actually had to do evil things to gain certain powers.
Doesn't it say somewhere in the docs that a lot of the magick hate comes from the fact that Defilers are complete fucking assholes and the reason Zalanthas sucks, but the commoner populace is too stupid to know the difference between them and Jo Schmoe Elementalist (which, so long as they're not personally malevolent or accidentally summoning elementals, can be rather harmless or even benevolent)? Shit, people don't even know the Sorcerer Kings are Sorcerers.
Quote from: MeTekillot on July 27, 2015, 08:17:34 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on July 27, 2015, 05:05:32 PM
Where's the mages to reinforce the stereotype of baby-stealing, curse-slinging, terror that the common man is supposed to whisper prayers to the Highlord for protection against?
Getting wombo-combo'd by Gemmed Seal Team Six, usually.
heh
I hate no desire to make magick disappear. What I DO desire is less of an unrealistic situation. You can say we're supposed to do this and that all you like (and yes, I will do this or that), but until it makes sense to me that this is happening and it doesn't seem contrived, I will OOCly hate it. I've always felt that IC and OOC need to match up a bit to make playing something work better. Because OOCly, there's no reason for me to not travel with Jane the Gemmer, but ICly, I certainly believe there is.
That's why I wish magick in the South wasn't hated as bad. I had no issue with the North hating it, but then there was no Gemmed Quarter in the North. Until the Gemmed have a quasi-game to play, they will always feel isolated, so give them in-Quarter politics. And until crossing paths with a mages who is a Gemmer comes with the real, coded threat that your character might actually end up worse off, I will always hate the idea that my southern character isn't doing right if he or she doesn't hate Highlord/Templar-controlled mages.
Put me in the wild though, and I have no problem hating a unknown magicker who comes along, both ICly and OOCly, because that mage is probably doing bad, since the Highlord and Templars aren't around to mind him.
I think more appropriate words for the gemmed are "uncomfortable" "fearful" "superstitious" "ignorant" as opposed to "hate".
Eh, those words lead to hate, I'm sure, dear.
fear --> anger
anger --> hate
hate --> (http://pre14.deviantart.net/b219/th/pre/i/2014/077/0/a/darth_vader_by_ephebopus365-d7apejw.jpg)
My point is that there's an enormous grey area full of rich roleplay opportunities to be had, instead of defaulting directly to "hate".
Allanak's gemmed are subhuman and shunned, but this isn't Tuluk. They aren't kill on sight, they are tolerated - grudgingly, suspiciously, perhaps unwillingly - but tolerated all the same.
My problem is that people seem to flip beteween two binary states of roleplay - open acceptance or overt hatred - rather than exploring all the areas in between.
Quote from: Delirium on July 28, 2015, 12:35:53 PM
My point is that there's an enormous grey area full of rich roleplay opportunities to be had, instead of defaulting directly to "hate".
I know I just wanted to make a star wars joke D-:
I don't like black and white rp either, that's boring.
Quote from: Delirium on July 28, 2015, 12:35:53 PM
My point is that there's an enormous grey area full of rich roleplay opportunities to be had, instead of defaulting directly to "hate".
Allanak's gemmed are subhuman and shunned, but this isn't Tuluk. They aren't kill on sight, they are tolerated - grudgingly, suspiciously, perhaps unwillingly - but tolerated all the same.
My problem is that people seem to flip beteween two binary states of roleplay - open acceptance or overt hatred - rather than exploring all the areas in between.
50 shades of this. And I'll go the step to the middle from the other side of the spectrum too: players of gemmed shouldn't feel obligated (or even necessarily want) to play characters who want to fit in, or who want to be completely isolated. There are 50 shades of variety in there as well. A gemmed could want to earn JUST enough respect that they're not constantly picked on without someone saying "hm - you know Amos, Talia here is probably not the gemmer you want to piss off. Try Amos instead, he's the one who gave Malik the crotchrot last Nekrete by just talking about his nads in public."
That's a pretty good point, D.
Why not give them an actual crotchrot spell that can be transmitted by touch for a while after being cast or something then.
Quote from: wizturbo on July 27, 2015, 07:47:14 PM
I agree something could and should be done to make Gemmed play more fun, but the game was built with so many IC barriers to that it's a daunting problem to fix. I've played a lot of long lived Gemmed, and essentially my diagnosis of the problem is that the #1 issue with the role is a lack of IC leadership. And I don't mean leadership in the Templar or Noble sense, I mean ground level "Sergeant" style leadership. When that kind of leadership was available, played a Gemmed was a lot of fun, and even kept things closer to the documented setting in my opinion to prevent things from veering too far away from accepted norms.
There is only one clan that openly hires Gemmed, and can provide a staff supported "boss" for a Gemmed, and that's House Oash. Independent Gemmed who want to act as leaders amongst their peers can try to do so, but this is made very difficult by IC forces. Part of accepting the role of a Gemmed "leader" is to accept and deal with those IC forces...but it sure sucks. Being a leader without any actual authority or rank is a constant struggle, and that's what you're forced to do if you want to play a Gemmed 'Sergeant'-type person. I've seen Gemmed rise in prominence throughout the years, but because they have no rank or standing, they have to spend half their time convincing the population to listen to them, rather than lead.
If I were able to wave a magick wand and implement a single, realistic change, it would be adding one Gemmed rank within the Arm of the Dragon (with perhaps other ranks above it that are held by NPCs). This is not to say they should have crim-code immunity, just be a recognized servant to the Templarate, with a uniform, and the limited (but undeniable) authority that comes with that to lead. I would then open a role call for this rank to be filled a single time, and make the position available for promotion in-game with a limit of no more than 2 PC's able to attain the rank at any given time, but only in exceptional cases would that 2nd spot ever be filled.
This would create a carrot for Gemmed to chase, trying to attain some meager amount of status, and it would give those characters that invest countless hours of work into leading the authority to actually do so in some limited capacity.
I really like this idea. The PC Templars have a lot on their plate to manage leadership for the gemmed, and so too I imagine the AoD Sergeant.
It would be nice to have three options available for gemmed:
1. Independent.
2. AoD Auxillaries.
3. Oash.
That's something that does happen fairly often, actually, with varying levels of formality.
Any templar can just say "YOU! You're now my magickal deputy. Spread my word to your lowly quarter. Also, play nice with my Sergeant here." No need for a coded clan/rank or soldier-level compound access.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on July 29, 2015, 01:07:24 PM
That's something that does happen fairly often, actually, with varying levels of formality.
Any templar can just say "YOU! You're now my magickal deputy. Spread my word to your lowly quarter. Also, play nice with my Sergeant here." No need for a coded clan/rank or soldier-level compound access.
I can say from experience that there are serious problems with this model. This Gemmed person's authority is completely derived from a single Templar's opinion of them. If that Templar dies, stores, or goes inactive, you have no support. You don't report to a clan (and thus have staff as a lifeline) you're an independent. There's also the problem of a single Templar's opinion can conflict with another Templar's opinion. It isn't like this in a clan. If a Templar doesn't like a Sergeant, that doesn't mean the Sergeant cannot do their job. It means they have an angry Templar A to deal with, which is bad, but they still have a rank and job to do.
As for soldier-level compound access, I never said that. All that's needed is an official role, a uniform, and character reports sent to AOD as required of any sponsored leadership role.
I'm not sure they even need a uniform, beyond a shoulder-patch or something.
I like the idea though. I've seen it done (sort of, less officially) with great success. Not only did it entertain the gemmed it promoted a far better level of RP around gemmed interactions.
Quote from: wizturbo on July 29, 2015, 03:04:40 PM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on July 29, 2015, 01:07:24 PM
That's something that does happen fairly often, actually, with varying levels of formality.
Any templar can just say "YOU! You're now my magickal deputy. Spread my word to your lowly quarter. Also, play nice with my Sergeant here." No need for a coded clan/rank or soldier-level compound access.
I can say from experience that there are serious problems with this model. This Gemmed person's authority is completely derived from a single Templar's opinion of them. If that Templar dies, stores, or goes inactive, you have no support. You don't report to a clan (and thus have staff as a lifeline) you're an independent. There's also the problem of a single Templar's opinion can conflict with another Templar's opinion. It isn't like this in a clan. If a Templar doesn't like a Sergeant, that doesn't mean the Sergeant cannot do their job. It means they have an angry Templar A to deal with, which is bad, but they still have a rank and job to do.
As for soldier-level compound access, I never said that. All that's needed is an official role, a uniform, and character reports sent to AOD as required of any sponsored leadership role.
Precisely this. Especially the leadership reports: with the new change in the way character reports are handled, there are -no- gemmed that actually file leadership character reports (unless I'm mistaken).
If it were turned into an actual coded clan, there'd also be ways to coordinate with other gemmed under that leadership. No need for a building, or grub, or even uniforms, but the rollcall, absent threads, and the place for rumours / coordinating RPTs would make life easier.
Why again do we view gemmed deriving their status off of one single templar as a Bad Thing?
Quote from: nauta on July 29, 2015, 03:23:06 PM
.... with the new change in the way character reports are handled, there are -no- gemmed that actually file leadership character reports (unless I'm mistaken).
There are clanned leadership positions for Gemmed within House Oash, but they're only obtained ICly, which means there can be long stretches of time between such a position being filled (if ever, really).
Quote from: wizturbo on July 29, 2015, 03:04:40 PM
I can say from experience that there are serious problems with this model. This Gemmed person's authority is completely derived from a single Templar's opinion of them. If that Templar dies, stores, or goes inactive, you have no support.
So?
QuoteYou don't report to a clan (and thus have staff as a lifeline) you're an independent.
Not true. I believe non-Oash gemmed, when reporting is needed, submit them to AoD.
QuoteThere's also the problem of a single Templar's opinion can conflict with another Templar's opinion.
So?
QuoteIt isn't like this in a clan.
Sometimes it is.
QuoteIf a Templar doesn't like a Sergeant, that doesn't mean the Sergeant cannot do their job. It means they have an angry Templar A to deal with, which is bad, but they still have a rank and job to do.
OK....
QuoteAs for soldier-level compound access, I never said that. All that's needed is an official role, a uniform, and character reports sent to AOD as required of any sponsored leadership role.
Pretty much the main point of coded clan ranks is clan property access. Without that, "official" has little meaning. Uniforms are just items. And, as I said, gemmed already report to AoD.
Quote from: Patuk on July 29, 2015, 03:26:11 PM
Why again do we view gemmed deriving their status off of one single templar as a Bad Thing?
If you invest 6 months into a character, spend 20-30 hours a week playing it to be that Gemmed leader, and have everything disappear because of non-IC events....you might view this as a Bad Thing. Also, by not being a clanned leader, you don't have the same level of staff support that playing a leader really requires.
Quote from: wizturbo on July 29, 2015, 03:26:20 PM
Quote from: nauta on July 29, 2015, 03:23:06 PM
.... with the new change in the way character reports are handled, there are -no- gemmed that actually file leadership character reports (unless I'm mistaken).
There are clanned leadership positions for Gemmed within House Oash, but they're only obtained ICly, which means there can be long stretches of time between such a position being filled (if ever, really).
They don't file leadership reports.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on July 29, 2015, 03:28:13 PM
Multiple instances of:
So?
By not having this, it makes it hard to play Gemmed leaders, which means fewer people try to do it, and the Gemmed have less fun as a result. The whole point of this thread seems to be ideas on how to fix that. Soooooo.... That's what I'm doing! Bringing up ideas on how to improve things. You can always make an argument for why the status quo is fine, but I don't think it's fine, and some others don't think its fine.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on July 29, 2015, 03:28:13 PM
QuoteYou don't report to a clan (and thus have staff as a lifeline) you're an independent.
I believe non-Oash gemmed, when reporting is needed, submit them to AoD.
Correct, non-Oash gemmed do report to the staff of the AoD, and we give them the same level of support we do to Oash gemmed. Oash gemmed may or may not have somewhat more hands-on leadership (if there is a noble PC who wants to do that with them), but individual templars historically are pretty good about involving gemmed when those gemmed players want to be involved.
And Oash noble PCs die/store/whatever too, so gemmed who are in Oash can lose their leadership and need to find new too. Same thing goes for any noble house employee.
I get that it seems different but from a staffing perspective the dynamics are very similar.
Quote from: nauta on July 29, 2015, 03:36:29 PM
They don't file leadership reports.
Perhaps not official leader reports, but I certainly had full clan staff support when I was in such a position by filing normal reports. Nearly on par with what I'd get from a sponsored role, in fact.
Quote from: Talia on July 29, 2015, 03:37:17 PM
And Oash noble PCs die/store/whatever too, so gemmed who are in Oash can lose their leadership and need to find new too. Same thing goes for any noble house employee.
I get that it seems different but from a staffing perspective the dynamics are very similar.
The key difference is an Oashi (find out IC clan rank) doesn't lose their rank if a noble dies/stores. They're still a leader. Their world may still be turned upside down of course, but they're in a position above others in the clan in which they can lead from.
Also, in the past, my non-clanned gemmed received
significantly less support. Of course that's in the past, and things are under different management now...so that may no longer be the case!
Quote from: wizturbo on July 29, 2015, 03:33:21 PM
Quote from: Patuk on July 29, 2015, 03:26:11 PM
Why again do we view gemmed deriving their status off of one single templar as a Bad Thing?
If you invest 6 months into a character, spend 20-30 hours a week playing it to be that Gemmed leader, and have everything disappear because of non-IC events....you might view this as a Bad Thing. Also, by not being a clanned leader, you don't have the same level of staff support that playing a leader really requires.
So the problem is Gemmed being treated like every other clanless leader figure? Why again is
that a Bad Thing
TM?
What other clanless leader figures are there again? Independent merchants? They have a framework for becoming an actual clan. Desert raiders? By their very nature, they don't need a Templar to support them... (lol). What exactly are you comparing this to?
Quote from: wizturbo on July 29, 2015, 03:40:49 PM
Also, in the past, my non-clanned gemmed received significantly less support. Of course that's in the past, and things are under different management now...so that may no longer be the case!
Was your non-clanned Gemmed outgoing, reminding others of their existence and utility? Was he not a fuck-up? Was he fortunate to be playing at a time when there happened to be leaders who wanted to include and utilize Gemmed in plots (as many Templars and officers in the last few years were)? If the answer to any of those questions is "no" then you might have had trouble interacting with plots, regardless of whether you had a clan structure to be plugged in to.
Gemmed aren't supposed to be respected by the populace. They're not even really supposed to be respected by the Templars, save perhaps as useful and talented pets. They're weapons, quasi-slaves, and have a lot of social rules to reinforce that status. That's their place in the game world. Giving them much more is going to further undermine Armageddon's claim to being a low fantasy setting.
Wait, hold on. I've been specifically told that they're not quasi-slaves, and that despite the extremely overbearing social stigma, that they're free citizens in exactly the same way that Commoner Joe is a free citizen (and nobody is really 'free,' of course.) They're 'weapons' because unlike Commoner Joe, they happen to be useful to the templarate in that way, and the templarate can do as they please with anybody. Commoner Joe is pretty useless, Gemmer Bob is a grenade. Am I wrong?
They can be compelled to perform actions a whoooole lot easier than Commoner Joe. Legally they are not slaves, functionally they are. They exist at the Templarate's mercy and convenience.
Quote from: Beethoven on July 29, 2015, 04:06:55 PM
Wait, hold on. I've been specifically told that they're not quasi-slaves, and that despite the extremely overbearing social stigma, that they're free citizens in exactly the same way that Commoner Joe is a free citizen (and nobody is really 'free,' of course.) They're 'weapons' because unlike Commoner Joe, they happen to be useful to the templarate in that way, and the templarate can do as they please with anybody. Commoner Joe is pretty useless, Gemmer Bob is a grenade. Am I wrong?
You're not wrong. BadSkeelz just
really, really hates magick.
p.s. low fantasy != low magick
It's true that it is extremely easy for the templarate to coerce the gemmed, but I have read extensively on these very boards that it is a mistake to think of the gemmed as slaves in any sense. Maybe that is for OOCish reasons, but that is a distinction that I have seen drawn before.
Gemmed aren't slaves in the traditional sense, but templars have hella leverage - a gemmer is a slave if the templar decides that's the type of relationship he wants.
Quote from: manonfire on July 29, 2015, 04:27:16 PM
Gemmed aren't slaves in the traditional sense, but templars have hella leverage - a gemmer is a slave if the templar decides that's the type of relationship he wants.
Anyone is a slave if a Templar decides that's the type of relationship she wants. Templar's have the authority to enslave commoners, just like they have the authority to kill a commoner at their whim. They just don't, because OOCly that means the PC in question must store...and you might as well just kill them because it makes it easier to handle.
Gemmed are not slaves. They have their own homes, make their own income, and have the same pathetically limited rights of anyone else in Allanak without a signet ring on their finger.
Yes, the Templarate has an iron grip around the throats of the gemmed, but I do not think that makes them quasi-slaves. It just means it is easier for the templarate to control them if they get unruly (because these particular people are more dangerous if they get unruly) or be capricious with them if they feel like it, but typically, they tend to leave them alone, probably in no small part because it would get boring to mess with every gemmed that passes by you. Gemmed mages go outside the walls, they travel, they greb, they live their own lives. Of course, that is off-topic, but it has been discussed before. It's been stated that the gemmed are not slaves, they're not necessarily "templars' pets"--they're citizens, despite how the public views them.
What Beethoven said, plus:
The gem is far more of a fail-safe than a slave collar. Beyond that I would suggest investigating in-game.
If there are several PC Templars rattling around, maybe one could be assigned to specifically oversee the non-Oashi Gemmed. I.e. that Templar is given the Gemmed to work with rather than the Jade Sabers.
Quote from: Eyeball on July 29, 2015, 06:47:10 PM
If there are several PC Templars rattling around, maybe one could be assigned to specifically oversee the non-Oashi Gemmed. I.e. that Templar is given the Gemmed to work with rather than the Jade Sabers.
Doesn't really make sense unless there's some kind of organization assigned them to... That's like saying you're the Templar assigned to the Commoner Quarter. What does that mean? Who reports to you? If these official positions were created inside the AOD, and those uniformed/ranked Gemmed worked for you, then maybe it would make sense for a Templar to be assigned over it?
Quote from: wizturbo on July 29, 2015, 03:40:49 PM
The key difference is an Oashi (find out IC clan rank) doesn't lose their rank if a noble dies/stores. They're still a leader. Their world may still be turned upside down of course, but they're in a position above others in the clan in which they can lead from.
Perhaps your experience was different than mine, but I can attest to having my gemmed Oashi being removed from the House and Clan when their PC Noble stored. Such-and-such Noble has retired from public life; your services are no longer required.
Then again, this was when Oash had a single PC Noble in it at the time. Perhaps things are different when there is two or more active Nobles.
Quote from: Pale Horse on July 29, 2015, 07:54:52 PM
Perhaps your experience was different than mine, but I can attest to having my gemmed Oashi being removed from the House and Clan when their PC Noble stored. Such-and-such Noble has retired from public life; your services are no longer required.
Sounds like the clan was temporarily closed. That happened to me too, actually. When that happens, pretty much any PC is given the boot. Happened to House Tor too I think.
Quote from: wizturbo on July 29, 2015, 07:49:42 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on July 29, 2015, 06:47:10 PM
If there are several PC Templars rattling around, maybe one could be assigned to specifically oversee the non-Oashi Gemmed. I.e. that Templar is given the Gemmed to work with rather than the Jade Sabers.
Doesn't really make sense unless there's some kind of organization assigned them to... That's like saying you're the Templar assigned to the Commoner Quarter. What does that mean? Who reports to you? If these official positions were created inside the AOD, and those uniformed/ranked Gemmed worked for you, then maybe it would make sense for a Templar to be assigned over it?
I see NPC templars in the same places day after month after year.. it looks to me like they've been assigned specific duties and territories.
This would be the same thing for PC templars; the one assigned to the gemmed would be expected to use the gemmed as his tools, not the Sabers. EDIT: It wouldn't mean he's expected to live in the gemmed Quarter all of the time, no, but at least to regularly devote some of his time to it.
I wouldn't mind seeing an AoD auxiliary clan formed, but Talia has already said the gemmed will never be part of the AoD in any way, so elaborating on it is pointless.
Quote from: Eyeball on July 29, 2015, 08:40:29 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing an AoD auxiliary clan formed, but Talia has already said the gemmed will never be part of the AoD in any way, so elaborating on it is pointless.
Talia said "Gemmed mages are never going to be
officially part of the AoD. Next topic!".
That doesn't mean never part of the AoD in any way, it means they will not be part of the Arm of the Dragon clan, which is currently Templars+PC Soldiers. That means crim-code immunity, access to special places, etc. Notice, nothing I've suggested has any of those things? Allanaki Militia Recruits are similarly not part of the Arm of the Dragon, but they're affiliated with the AoD. Nothing has been said that similar affiliated organizations cannot be created for the Gemmed, if there was an appetite.
Quote from: wizturbo on July 29, 2015, 10:37:54 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on July 29, 2015, 08:40:29 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing an AoD auxiliary clan formed, but Talia has already said the gemmed will never be part of the AoD in any way, so elaborating on it is pointless.
Talia said "Gemmed mages are never going to be officially part of the AoD. Next topic!".
That doesn't mean never part of the AoD in any way, it means they will not be part of the Arm of the Dragon clan, which is currently Templars+PC Soldiers. That means crim-code immunity, access to special places, etc. Notice, nothing I've suggested has any of those things? Allanaki Militia Recruits are similarly not part of the Arm of the Dragon, but they're affiliated with the AoD. Nothing has been said that similar affiliated organizations cannot be created for the Gemmed, if there was an appetite.
Well, I suggested that Vivaduans be allowed in as permanent recruits due to their obvious utility in a supporting role that doesn't overshadow the soldiers (i.e. into Allanaki Militia Recruits, never to be promoted) and that was the response.
That is a pity, because it would be nice to see another "official" option for the gemmed. Two would be just perfect, I think.
There is, kinda sorta, another avenue altogether for the listless non-Oashi gemmed problem: murder your plot competition. Not getting plots because that other Vivaduan is? Murder. Then you get two plots! (I'm only half joking.)
Quote from: LauraMars on July 28, 2015, 12:29:58 PM
fear --> anger
anger --> hate
hate --> (http://pre14.deviantart.net/b219/th/pre/i/2014/077/0/a/darth_vader_by_ephebopus365-d7apejw.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/pZEsvCs.png)
One thing that struck me when reflecting on the plight of the gemmed - and mind you I'm not thoroughly convinced that they are as bereft of plot options as others suggest - is that despite that fact that gemmed are more or less city based, there doesn't seem to be much that gemmed can do to interact with that city. There's loads of fun to be had in the wilds, but there seem to be relatively few avenues available within the city for interaction.
In particular, put as a question: is there some way to hook gemmed up to city-based political plots?
I missed out on the days of CAM, but such an institution struck me as something like what would allow this.
Short answer? No.
Long answer? Gemmed do have access to most of the interaction and political channels that non-House-employed commoners have. They're certainly at a heavy social disadvantage, but the channels are still open. Closer ties with a templar can also open up some avenues of influence. But I really don't think that gemmed need to be given a structured hook into politics and more than Byn do. It makes zero sense, ICly.
The Gemmed have avenues to rather extreme amounts of wealth for a non-merchant house commoner. That can buy them a fair amount of influence, at least it has in my experiences...although it mostly just offsets the social disadvantages at best.
Gemmed politics are interesting. You start at a severe disadvantage, and generally any influence or protection you have lives and dies with the templar who affords it.
While this can be frustrating if they store, it can also lead to some very interesting situations. Especially when they die!
Deny, deny, change nothing, it's the GDB way. ??? Like it would kill the game to give the gemmed some goal or group of their own.
They have the same goal as everyone else: survive. They have their group: the Gemmed.
Complaining about Gemmed being too stigmatized is like complaining about elves not being able to ride. Annoying as it may be, it's still a big part of their characterization. Deal with it.
Quote from: Eyeball on July 31, 2015, 06:18:54 PM
Deny, deny, change nothing, it's the GDB way. ??? Like it would kill the game to give the gemmed some goal or group of their own.
It's not so futile... this has been a hugely popular thread.
Lots of people have ingested new ideas on the topic. Including, probably, people who are currently playing gemmed (hey, you don't have to be an "official" leader to lead, especially when you combine your immense IC power with a bit of charisma) as well as future templars who might want to go out of their way and help give the gemmed a sense of direction.
[I'll probably agree with BadSkeelz too... if being gemmed is an unengaging role to you, pick another role or go rogue - how fun would that be?]
Quote from: Eyeball on July 31, 2015, 06:18:54 PM
Deny, deny, change nothing, it's the GDB way. ??? Like it would kill the game to give the gemmed some goal or group of their own.
You're not being very constructive. The gdb is a place to spitball ideas, and discuss them. Sometimes people disagree.
Quote from: nauta on July 31, 2015, 06:46:47 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on July 31, 2015, 06:18:54 PM
Deny, deny, change nothing, it's the GDB way. ??? Like it would kill the game to give the gemmed some goal or group of their own.
You're not being very constructive. The gdb is a place to spitball ideas, and discuss them. Sometimes people disagree.
You're right, I was being snarky. I just find it frustrating how difficult it is to convince people of basically anything.
Quote from: CodeMaster on July 31, 2015, 06:46:16 PM
[I'll probably agree with BadSkeelz too... if being gemmed is an unengaging role to you, pick another role or go rogue - how fun would that be?]
I'm played out, CodeMaster. I don't have any concepts left.
Quote from: Eyeball on July 31, 2015, 06:54:35 PM
I'm played out, CodeMaster. I don't have any concepts left.
We have a support group for this meets every Thursday to makes throw away PCs who meet up in the Gaj and mope around complaining vaguely about missing the good old days.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on July 31, 2015, 06:44:22 PM
Complaining about Gemmed being too stigmatized is like complaining about elves not being able to ride. Annoying as it may be, it's still a big part of their characterization. Deal with it.
Yes, you've made it very clear that your opinion on this is "Deal with it". Not exactly constructive though, because clearly many people don't want to deal with it, and would like to see some improvements made. Having clocked in 2000+ hours over 10 years playing Gemmed PC's, with many of those hours being in various states of frustration with the status quo, I have the opinion that they could use some improvements to make the roles more satisfying and interesting.
The main reason I think this? Because if I choose to play a Gemmed magicker, it's because I want to have some city life experience. If I wanted to be isolated, I could play a rogue.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on July 31, 2015, 07:06:19 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on July 31, 2015, 06:54:35 PM
I'm played out, CodeMaster. I don't have any concepts left.
We have a support group for this meets every Thursday to makes throw away PCs who meet up in the Gaj and mope around complaining vaguely about missing the good old days.
That's ok, I think I'll just leave [EDIT: the discussion]. Maybe in a few years there will be some new things.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on July 31, 2015, 06:44:22 PM
They have the same goal as everyone else: survive. They have their group: the Gemmed.
'Group' is the right word, and this helps me hone in on my point a little bit.
I guess part of what motivated my question was the thought that with almost every other city-based group (except elves, because ewww, elves), there is a way to interact with the extant political plots as a group: the rinthers can join the Guild, the Byn Sergeants have their institutional interests to protect, and the other clans obviously have political RP opportunities. But the gemmed, even Oashi gemmed, don't seem to have that as a live option.
Sure you can ensure your own individual survival by buddying up to a templar, or hiding under the Oashi heraldry, but I was more thinking in terms of group political goals/plots, where you'd RP in the political arena, however that might work out ICly.
And ICly, I think it would make sense - they are, after all, a group who have, in the past, gotten together enough political raptor nuggets to get temples made, a Quarter established, etc.
I don't know...Commoners in general have a lot of trouble engaging in city politics in any significant way, unless they're noble house servants, or have very specific roles in the Merchant Houses. Not having a means of participating in that doesn't seem out of place for the Gemmed.
Internal politics that occur within the Gemmed Quarter itself is oddly missing from Gemmed life. They're virtually non-existent in any meaningful way, besides social cliches, or avoiding/joining Oash. The essential reason that internal politics are lacking is there's nothing to fight over! There's no special ranks or privileges to fight for, there's no real estate, and no organizations to conflict with beside Oash, and having a conflict with them is extremely one-sided. The only thing a non-Oashi Gemmed can gain is money, items, and more coded ability through the magickal equivalent of beating on a training dummy....so why engage in politics?
People sure are off topic. I think a group Gemmed temple would be cool. It could have element only sub-quarters that behave like current temples do, blocking people not of that element and having their own teachers. And a communal area with a little bar and another area where some templar is giving lessons about behaving properly or something. This would remove the need for how the current temples work though.
Why not, sounds cool.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on July 31, 2015, 08:39:48 PM
And a communal area with a little bar and another area where some templar is giving lessons about behaving properly or something.
Does the Atrium take gemmed (rhetorical)? It could be an interesting alternative clan outlet for them that might stand in for such a communal area. They'd be the black sheep in the class without a doubt, but the instructors might "force" interactions to better acquaint both parties with how to behave around each other.
Now, I am strongly in favor of more options for non-Oashi gemmed, but as kind of a chronic gemmed player, I think it is very possible to play politics. It's like being forced to paint with a palette of about three colors: it actually sparks more creativity, because you're not overwhelmed with the endless possibilities of the whole palette at once. It is always an option to engage in politics under the table. Maybe you aren't after special rankings or privileges. Maybe you have a background that encourages a fixation with, or a vendetta against, certain powerful people or organizations. Risky, but doable. Gemmed can be interesting minions, and some surprising people can be willing to take them on, so long as nobody's the wiser.
Quote from: CodeMaster on July 31, 2015, 09:12:28 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on July 31, 2015, 08:39:48 PM
And a communal area with a little bar and another area where some templar is giving lessons about behaving properly or something.
Does the Atrium take gemmed (rhetorical)? It could be an interesting alternative clan outlet for them that might stand in for such a communal area. They'd be the black sheep in the class without a doubt, but the instructors might "force" interactions to better acquaint both parties with how to behave around each other.
You Jest surely sir ?
I played a latent elementalist who was Atrium-trained.
But anyway... gemmed Atrium students... no.
Though, I have seen templars (and Oash) that used gemmed in a very aide-like capacity, sometimes having them do non-magick-related business for them. Maybe it's not ideal, it creeps mundanes out, but it is pretty interesting.